Who's the Fedora user?

[Greg DeKoenigsberg]

This is one potential user of Fedora: Judy, from Arizona.  She sent in a 
letter to the editor of Red Hat Magazine that makes me weep inside.

What do we have to say to her?

--g

-------- Original Message --------
Subject: [CM] RE: Red Hat | Training News | Americas | August 2005
Date: 24 Aug 2005 14:58:40 -0000
From: azgjudy(a)azgalaxyonline.com
To: <bblell(a)redhat.com&gt;
CC: Support <support-byzukdeavsdrjebc9mkazb7v1zzhgs-r(a)redhat.com&gt;

Dear Red Hat,  I hope you will get this e-mail.  I am a single user
computer person.  I put yes down - so I could receive your e-mails.
To tell you the truth I do not know why.  Your main emphasis seems to
be on business.  I switched from Windows because I thought it would
be safer and healthier all the way round.  To tell you the truth I
feel totally lost in your system.  I cannot use my CDs that have
games.  I downloaded a game I had paid for.  No way could I get it to
work.  I wrote to Linux Game.  Their directions were like Greek, and
I only speak English.  I tried to download the anti-virus I use.
They have a version for Linux.  No way did I get that.  I looked
into your training, but that is extremely costly.  I have bought
books.  It all come s down to the fact There is little I am able to
do with Linux.  Mostly I would like to have a plug-in that works, as
to the fact there are many things I am unable to open, including some
mail, because I can find no way to do it.  Dear Red Hat - what are
you doing for us little people out here?  I am no further today than
I was the day this was installed.  Thank you, Judy D.

---- Original Message ----
From: redhat(a)info.redhat.com
To: azgjudy(a)azgalaxyonline.com
Subject: RE: Red Hat | Training News | Americas | August 2005
Date: Tue, 23 Aug 2005 14:36:21 -0000

> ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ 
> Red Hat | Training News | August 2005
> ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ 
>
> * August trivia question
> * Summer gear promotion almost over
> * Training press: What certification means to you (Certification
>   Magazine)
> * Red Hat news: Red Hat Network adds monitoring tool, Solaris support
>
> * South American training news:  "Capacitar para progresar" (Latin
>   Source Tech) 
> * Ask the expert: Red Hat Training Q & A
> * Tips from RHCEs: Remote controlled desktops without VNC
>
> ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ 
>
> AUGUST TRIVIA QUESTION: 
>
> Late last year CertCities.com picked Red Hat Certified Engineer
> (RHCE)
> as the _____ hottest IT certification for 2005.
>
> A) 1st   
> B) 3rd   
> C) 5th   
> D) 10th  
> E) None of the above
>
> [Stumped? Answer appears at the bottom of this newsletter.]
> ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
> ~ 
>
> SUMMER GEAR PROMOTION ALMOST OVER: SURF'S UP WITH RED HAT TRAINING
>
> Improve your skills, increase your career performance, and get Red
> Hat
> summer gear.  Sign up for select summer North American training
> courses
> and receive:
>
> * Shadowman boogie board 
> * Flip-flops 
> * Visor 
> * Oversize beach towel 
> * Kite 
> * Frisbee
>
> --> View the gear and learn more about this limited time offer. 
> http://info.redhat.com/a/tBDCzLwAUfRoFAYV5P3AT-kh4gt/trai17
> ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
> ~~~~ 
>
> TRAINING PRESS: WHAT CERTIFICATION MEANS TO YOU (CERTIFICATION
> MAGAZINE)
>
> "[M]ost qualified candidates feel that their experience speaks for
> itself, but as Linux becomes more prevalent in the corporate
> environment, more potential employers are looking for certifications
> as
> a benchmark of the candidate's knowledge and experience in skill sets
> relevant to the job at hand. This month, I'll help you to understand
> which certifications corporations are looking for - and why."
>
> --> Read the full article.
> http://info.redhat.com/a/tBDCzLwAUfRoFAYV5P3AT-kh4gt/trai10
> ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
>
>
> RED HAT NEWS: RED HAT NETWORK ADDS MONITORING TOOL, SOLARIS SUPPORT
> (ENTERPRISE NETWORKING PLANET)
>
> "Red Hat has announced a new monitoring tool it says will support
> Sun's
> Solaris as well as its own Linux offerings.  The Red Hat Network
> Monitoring Module is built on the company's Red Hat Network (RHN), a
> web-based systems management tool used to monitor and schedule
> updates
> for subscribed Red Hat Enterprise Linux systems. RHN allows
> administrators to track errata for their systems, create common
> software
> profiles for groups of systems, and allow for rollback of problematic
> updates.  The RHN Monitoring Module adds four key pieces of
> functionality..."
>
> --> Read the full article. 
> http://info.redhat.com/a/tBDCzLwAUfRoFAYV5P3AT-kh4gt/trai14
> ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
> ~~~ 
>
> SOUTH AMERICA TRAINING NEWS
>
> --> Article: "Capacitar para progresar": 
> http://info.redhat.com/a/tBDCzLwAUfRoFAYV5P3AT-kh4gt/trai15
>
> --> South American course schedule and special offers.
> http://info.redhat.com/a/tBDCzLwAUfRoFAYV5P3AT-kh4gt/trai4
>
> Email capacitacion(a)latinsourcetech.com for further information.
> ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
>
>
> ASK THE EXPERT: Red Hat Training Q & A
>
> Q: I am a computer software engineer and I have Linux+, OCA (Oracle
> Certified Association), and OCP (Oracle Certified Professional)
> certifications.  I am familiar with Red Hat and I want to improve my
> job
> position.  Can a Red Hat certification help enhance my career and get
> me
> a job with a large international company?
>
> Best Regards,
> Alireza Rahmani
>
> A: Thanks for your question Alireza.  While it's impossible to ensure
> that any professional certification will universally lead to
> promotions,
> increased responsibility, or high-paying positions with large
> companies,
> industry analysts agree that RHCT and RHCE are both likely to boost
> your
> employment options and overall career standing. Recently,
> Certification
> Magazine and Fairfield Research ranked the RHCE the most valuable
> certificaiton in all of IT.  In addition, according to numerous
> industry
> surveys, Red Hat certifications are one of a handful of IT
> credentials
> that command double digit annual salary increases.
>  
> http://info.redhat.com/a/tBDCzLwAUfRoFAYV5P3AT-kh4gt/trai12
>
> So while nobody can guarantee that a certification will lead to
> automatic career success, most would agree that RHCT and RHCE are
> guarantees of competency that resonate with colleagues and employers
> alike.
>
> -->Submit a question.
>  ask-the-expert(a)redhat.com 
> ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ 
>
> TIPS FROM RHCEs: REMOTE CONTROLLED DESKTOPS WITHOUT VNC
>
> In Red Hat Enterprise Linux 4 the GNOME desktop is provided with a
> vnc
> like service called vino.  It will allow a vnc client to remotely
> control the logged in users native GNOME desktop and enable desktop
> sharing.  
>
> --> Read more.
> http://info.redhat.com/a/tBDCzLwAUfRoFAYV5P3AT-kh4gt/trai9
> ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
>  
> TRIVIA QUESTION ANSWER: 
>
> B) 3rd
>
> In December, CertCities.com ranked Red Hat Certified Engineer (RHCE)
> as
> the third hottest IT certification for 2005.  
>
> -> Read the full article here.
> http://info.redhat.com/a/tBDCzLwAUfRoFAYV5P3AT-kh4gt/trai11
> ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
> ~ 
>
> Want

[Jef Spaleta]

On 8/24/05, Greg DeKoenigsberg <gdk(a)redhat.com&gt; wrote:
>  What do we have to say to her? 
Honestly.. I'll tell her that perhaps linux is not right for her...
and to check out other for-pay linux distributions which include
proprietary technology instead of being completely open source. Moving
to completely open source solutions has an opportunity cost, you
either value the benefits of open source over the costs or you
don't... and that determination comes down to personal situations. 
I'd also tell her that crossing any operating system boundary has a
portability price associated with. The price is higher when you
crossing from proprietary to an open vendor. And while there are some
technical solution which help.. there is no universal solution to the
problem..either for proprietary binary portability or proprietary
content portability.

For binary portability...anyone walking into the process of 'major'
operating system change certaintly needs to expect to have to stop
using some binary applications that you were using in the previous
operating system. While wine and winex do a good job at helping get
access to some windows applications.. they are not universal
solutions... just like virtualPC was never a perfect solution.  I
think point-blank statement about binary compatibility from windows to
linux is a very sensible statement to make upfront and I think most
people would find that sort of expectation adjustment reasonable.

Whether or not wine or winex are helpful solution to this particular
person's game problem is a matter of specifics. As for configuration
of wine, until someone takes up the challenge again inside RedHat or
Fedora to start integration work, its not going to get any easier for
the average Fedora or RedHat user to configure wine.   As to the
anti-virus issue, without knowing the specific vendor there isn't much
to say or discuss.  Generally speaking, at some point the packaging
standardization discussion that is on-going at fedora-packaging is
going to have to expand to include proprietary software vendors who
are trying to keep up.

For proprietary content portability, things like attachments in
proprietary formats..or web content such as flash or multimedia, there
is some long term hope that open source can re-engineer open solutions
as demand for access to this content grows, but such efforts are
continually hampered by political and legal issues. This one is the
really tough nut.  Its completely rational to expect to be able to
access your data regardless of what operating system its own..or to
access content on the web regardless of your choice of browser or
operating system...or hardware. That is every user's dream..every open
source developers dream. But some intellectual property laws make it
extremely difficult for the open source vendors to make this work
widely available without risking a legal assault.

There are only 3 ways to make this situation better. 
1) RedHat stops being an open source solution provider and licences
proprietary technology from other vendors. For every person that would
like to see this happen there is another one who would be
disappointed. This is a zero-sum game.

2) Technology vendors properly support and embrace the open source community, 
market share catch-22

3) Laws change so that open source developers and vendors can provide
technical solutions without risk of lawsuits due to concerns such as
software patents.
When I run for US senate, I expect everyone in this community to be
donating to my campaign.


-jef

[Greg DeKoenigsberg]

This is a thoughtful response, Jef.

Do you think Sue will understand it?

--g

_____________________  ____________________________________________
  Greg DeKoenigsberg ] [ the future masters of technology will have
 Community Relations ] [ to be lighthearted and intelligent.  the
             Red Hat ] [ machine easily masters the grim and the 
                     ] [ dumb.  --mcluhan

On Wed, 24 Aug 2005, Jeff Spaleta wrote:

>  On 8/24/05, Greg DeKoenigsberg <gdk(a)redhat.com&gt; wrote:
>  > What do we have to say to her?
>  
>  Honestly.. I'll tell her that perhaps linux is not right for her...
>  and to check out other for-pay linux distributions which include
>  proprietary technology instead of being completely open source. Moving
>  to completely open source solutions has an opportunity cost, you
>  either value the benefits of open source over the costs or you
>  don't... and that determination comes down to personal situations. 
>  I'd also tell her that crossing any operating system boundary has a
>  portability price associated with. The price is higher when you
>  crossing from proprietary to an open vendor. And while there are some
>  technical solution which help.. there is no universal solution to the
>  problem..either for proprietary binary portability or proprietary
>  content portability.
>  
>  For binary portability...anyone walking into the process of 'major'
>  operating system change certaintly needs to expect to have to stop
>  using some binary applications that you were using in the previous
>  operating system. While wine and winex do a good job at helping get
>  access to some windows applications.. they are not universal
>  solutions... just like virtualPC was never a perfect solution.  I
>  think point-blank statement about binary compatibility from windows to
>  linux is a very sensible statement to make upfront and I think most
>  people would find that sort of expectation adjustment reasonable.
>  
>  Whether or not wine or winex are helpful solution to this particular
>  person's game problem is a matter of specifics. As for configuration
>  of wine, until someone takes up the challenge again inside RedHat or
>  Fedora to start integration work, its not going to get any easier for
>  the average Fedora or RedHat user to configure wine.   As to the
>  anti-virus issue, without knowing the specific vendor there isn't much
>  to say or discuss.  Generally speaking, at some point the packaging
>  standardization discussion that is on-going at fedora-packaging is
>  going to have to expand to include proprietary software vendors who
>  are trying to keep up.
>  
>  For proprietary content portability, things like attachments in
>  proprietary formats..or web content such as flash or multimedia, there
>  is some long term hope that open source can re-engineer open solutions
>  as demand for access to this content grows, but such efforts are
>  continually hampered by political and legal issues. This one is the
>  really tough nut.  Its completely rational to expect to be able to
>  access your data regardless of what operating system its own..or to
>  access content on the web regardless of your choice of browser or
>  operating system...or hardware. That is every user's dream..every open
>  source developers dream. But some intellectual property laws make it
>  extremely difficult for the open source vendors to make this work
>  widely available without risking a legal assault.
>  
>  There are only 3 ways to make this situation better. 
>  1) RedHat stops being an open source solution provider and licences
>  proprietary technology from other vendors. For every person that would
>  like to see this happen there is another one who would be
>  disappointed. This is a zero-sum game.
>  
>  2) Technology vendors properly support and embrace the open source community, 
>  market share catch-22
>  
>  3) Laws change so that open source developers and vendors can provide
>  technical solutions without risk of lawsuits due to concerns such as
>  software patents.
>  When I run for US senate, I expect everyone in this community to be
>  donating to my campaign.
>  
>  
>  -jef
>  
>  --
>  Fedora-marketing-list mailing list
>  Fedora-marketing-list(a)redhat.com
>  http://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/fedora-marketing-list
>

[Jef Spaleta]

On 8/24/05, Greg DeKoenigsberg <gdk(a)redhat.com&gt; wrote:
>  
>  This is a thoughtful response, Jef.
>  
>  Do you think Sue will understand it? 
no.. unless the first letter of each paragraph is replaced with a
graphic of a puppy standing next to the capital letter..making an
appropriate face to display the emotional tone of the paragraph.
And certaintly not, unless someone goes back and corrects my grammar.

I really don't think anyone sitting in the 1% tail of geekdom..like
myself..is ever..ever.. going to be able to communicate "what,why,how"
of this open source thing to someone who sits in the middle of the
curve.  Whatever monkey noises I make is going to have to pass through
the hands of someone who lives in each standard deviation as it makes
its way into digestable form for the mean.

-jef"and wasn't her name Judy?"spaleta

[Greg DeKoenigsberg]

You're quite right.  Her name was Judy.  I was referring to her daughter 
Sue, who has an iPod surgically affixed to her skull.  :)

--g

_____________________  ____________________________________________
  Greg DeKoenigsberg ] [ the future masters of technology will have
 Community Relations ] [ to be lighthearted and intelligent.  the
             Red Hat ] [ machine easily masters the grim and the 
                     ] [ dumb.  --mcluhan

On Wed, 24 Aug 2005, Jeff Spaleta wrote:

>  On 8/24/05, Greg DeKoenigsberg <gdk(a)redhat.com&gt; wrote:
>  > 
>  > This is a thoughtful response, Jef.
>  > 
>  > Do you think Sue will understand it?
>  
>  no.. unless the first letter of each paragraph is replaced with a
>  graphic of a puppy standing next to the capital letter..making an
>  appropriate face to display the emotional tone of the paragraph.
>  And certaintly not, unless someone goes back and corrects my grammar.
>  
>  I really don't think anyone sitting in the 1% tail of geekdom..like
>  myself..is ever..ever.. going to be able to communicate "what,why,how"
>  of this open source thing to someone who sits in the middle of the
>  curve.  Whatever monkey noises I make is going to have to pass through
>  the hands of someone who lives in each standard deviation as it makes
>  its way into digestable form for the mean.
>  
>  -jef"and wasn't her name Judy?"spaleta
>  
>  --
>  Fedora-marketing-list mailing list
>  Fedora-marketing-list(a)redhat.com
>  http://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/fedora-marketing-list
>

[Bryan Smith]

Greg DeKoenigsberg <gdk(a)redhat.com&gt; wrote:
>  This is a thoughtful response, Jef.
>  Do you think Sue will understand it? 
Jeff Spaleta <jspaleta(a)gmail.com&gt; wrote:
>  no.. unless the first letter of each paragraph is replaced
>  with a graphic of a puppy standing next to the capital
>  letter..  I really don't think anyone sitting in the 1% 
tail
>  of geekdom.. 
I'm kinda wondering why no one has commented, whether
positive or negative, on my response.

I put it in 3 straight points.

I wear a suit daily because I deal with suits, while at the
same time, I have to take my jacket off and loosen my tie
because I'm also often in a room for part of the day where
I'm the only person not wearing jeans or shorts!


-- 
Bryan J. Smith                | Sent from Yahoo Mail
mailto:[e-mail]     |  (please excuse any
http://thebs413.blogspot.com/ |   missing headers)

[Greg DeKoenigsberg]

Bryan:

I sent your response to her, slightly edited.  :)

--g

_____________________  ____________________________________________
  Greg DeKoenigsberg ] [ the future masters of technology will have
 Community Relations ] [ to be lighthearted and intelligent.  the
             Red Hat ] [ machine easily masters the grim and the 
                     ] [ dumb.  --mcluhan

On Wed, 24 Aug 2005, Bryan J. Smith wrote:

>  Greg DeKoenigsberg <gdk(a)redhat.com&gt; wrote:
>  > This is a thoughtful response, Jef.
>  > Do you think Sue will understand it?
>  
>  Jeff Spaleta <jspaleta(a)gmail.com&gt; wrote:
>  > no.. unless the first letter of each paragraph is replaced
>  > with a graphic of a puppy standing next to the capital
>  > letter..  I really don't think anyone sitting in the 1%
>  tail
>  > of geekdom..
>  
>  I'm kinda wondering why no one has commented, whether
>  positive or negative, on my response.
>  
>  I put it in 3 straight points.
>  
>  I wear a suit daily because I deal with suits, while at the
>  same time, I have to take my jacket off and loosen my tie
>  because I'm also often in a room for part of the day where
>  I'm the only person not wearing jeans or shorts!
>  
>  
>  -- 
>  Bryan J. Smith                | Sent from Yahoo Mail
>  mailto:[e-mail]     |  (please excuse any
>  http://thebs413.blogspot.com/ |   missing headers)
>  
>  --
>  Fedora-marketing-list mailing list
>  Fedora-marketing-list(a)redhat.com
>  http://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/fedora-marketing-list
>

[Bryan Smith]

Jeff Spaleta <jspaleta(a)gmail.com&gt; wrote:
>  3) Laws change so that open source developers and vendors
>  can provide technical solutions without risk of lawsuits 
due
>  to concerns such as software patents.  When I run for US
>  senate, I expect everyone in this community to be
>  donating to my campaign. 
As long as you are promoting "open standards."  I'm a huge
proponent in mandating "open standards."

I'm also a huge proponent of "open source."  But I would
never mandate "open source."

I think if you mandate "open standards," open source stands
quite well on its own.  And if it doesn't, then that's a
problem with the open source and no regulation is going to
fix that.


-- 
Bryan J. Smith                | Sent from Yahoo Mail
mailto:[e-mail]     |  (please excuse any
http://thebs413.blogspot.com/ |   missing headers)

[Stuart Ellis]

On Wed, 24 Aug 2005 12:06:01 -0400, "Jeff Spaleta" <jspaleta(a)gmail.com&gt;
said:
>  On 8/24/05, Greg DeKoenigsberg <gdk(a)redhat.com&gt; wrote:
>  > What do we have to say to her?
>  
>  Honestly.. I'll tell her that perhaps linux is not right for her...
>  and to check out other for-pay linux distributions which include
>  proprietary technology instead of being completely open source. Moving
>  to completely open source solutions has an opportunity cost, you
>  either value the benefits of open source over the costs or you
>  don't... and that determination comes down to personal situations. 
>  I'd also tell her that crossing any operating system boundary has a
>  portability price associated with. The price is higher when you
>  crossing from proprietary to an open vendor. And while there are some
>  technical solution which help.. there is no universal solution to the
>  problem..either for proprietary binary portability or proprietary
>  content portability. 
I think this is a model worth looking at - CodeWeavers' "Truth in
Advertising: Real Dirt":

http://www.codeweavers.com/products/cxoffice/truth_in_advertising/the_rea...

They say straight out in a simple language "What works well" *and* "What
sort of works" and "What doesn't work"

As Jeff says, we can't provide binary compatibility. Maybe we can make a
plus point of being absolutely straight about these kinds of things and
differentiating Fedora from those who say "Linux is ready for the
desktop", without talking about the trade-offs that users must make.


--

Stuart Ellis

stuart(a)elsn.org

Fedora Documentation Project: http://fedora.redhat.com/projects/docs/

GPG key ID: 7098ABEA
GPG key fingerprint: 68B0 E291 FB19 C845 E60E  9569 292E E365 7098 ABEA

[Greg DeKoenigsberg]

Like this idea a lot.

I'm not interested in being all things to all people, because we can't do 
that.

I'm very interested in making it clear that we *do* provide a good 
experience for a *lot* of people, and also making it clear what's 
important to us, and why.

Truth in advertising must be a part of the Fedora brand, imho.

--g

_____________________  ____________________________________________
  Greg DeKoenigsberg ] [ the future masters of technology will have
 Community Relations ] [ to be lighthearted and intelligent.  the
             Red Hat ] [ machine easily masters the grim and the 
                     ] [ dumb.  --mcluhan

On Wed, 24 Aug 2005, Stuart Ellis wrote:

>  
>  On Wed, 24 Aug 2005 12:06:01 -0400, "Jeff Spaleta" <jspaleta(a)gmail.com&gt;
>  said:
>  > On 8/24/05, Greg DeKoenigsberg <gdk(a)redhat.com&gt; wrote:
>  > > What do we have to say to her?
>  > 
>  > Honestly.. I'll tell her that perhaps linux is not right for her...
>  > and to check out other for-pay linux distributions which include
>  > proprietary technology instead of being completely open source. Moving
>  > to completely open source solutions has an opportunity cost, you
>  > either value the benefits of open source over the costs or you
>  > don't... and that determination comes down to personal situations. 
>  > I'd also tell her that crossing any operating system boundary has a
>  > portability price associated with. The price is higher when you
>  > crossing from proprietary to an open vendor. And while there are some
>  > technical solution which help.. there is no universal solution to the
>  > problem..either for proprietary binary portability or proprietary
>  > content portability.
>  
>  I think this is a model worth looking at - CodeWeavers' "Truth in
>  Advertising: Real Dirt":
>  
>  http://www.codeweavers.com/products/cxoffice/truth_in_advertising/the_rea...
>  
>  They say straight out in a simple language "What works well" *and* "What
>  sort of works" and "What doesn't work"
>  
>  As Jeff says, we can't provide binary compatibility. Maybe we can make a
>  plus point of being absolutely straight about these kinds of things and
>  differentiating Fedora from those who say "Linux is ready for the
>  desktop", without talking about the trade-offs that users must make.
>  
>  
>  --
>  
>  Stuart Ellis
>  
>  stuart(a)elsn.org
>  
>  Fedora Documentation Project: http://fedora.redhat.com/projects/docs/
>  
>  GPG key ID: 7098ABEA
>  GPG key fingerprint: 68B0 E291 FB19 C845 E60E  9569 292E E365 7098 ABEA
>  
>  --
>  Fedora-marketing-list mailing list
>  Fedora-marketing-list(a)redhat.com
>  http://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/fedora-marketing-list
>

[Jef Spaleta]

On 8/24/05, Stuart Ellis <stuart(a)elsn.org&gt; wrote:
>  I think this is a model worth looking at - CodeWeavers'
> "Truth in
>  Advertising: Real Dirt":
>  
>  http://www.codeweavers.com/products/cxoffice/truth_in_advertising/the_rea...
>  
>  They say straight out in a simple language "What works well" *and* "What
>  sort of works" and "What doesn't work" 
I like the differentiation of tangible and intangible benefits as well
as the split between instant benefits and long term benefits on the
url.  For me, and thus I would assume for other techno-socio-liberal
geeks, a lot of the decision making as to when and if to jump to linux
ends up weighing some of the grander intangibles concerning long-term
equitable access to digital information heavily. As a result I am
willing to make the dauntingly large sacrifice of no longer being able
to play my dusty old copy of X-wing verses Tie-fighter or The
Incredible Machine.

I drank the Kool-aid, there is no going back for me, I'm quite sure I
look like a raving lunatic to most people.  My wife on the other hand,
uses a computer much more pragmatically. We negotiated a dual-boot
arrangement.  The machine stays booted into Fedora most of the time.
She boots into windows to play a few freebie games (though I've
introduced her to wesnoth so thats probably going to change), work
with sheet music composition software (the primary reason why a dual
boot was needed.. i couldn't find anything adequate as an open source
project in this area, I think she's using a cut-down version of
Finale), listening to the 30-second clips in itunes pretending she's
going to actually purchase something from the store, and on occasion
do some photo editting with Picasa (if only Google cranked out useful
cross-platform applications). As for the applications she's using the
most right now on linux (determined by what is on her screen everytime
i pass her computer), the obvious email and web browsing dominate like
90% of her computer usage.  Beside that, leading applications include
gourmet, alexandria, gnucash and openoffice followed by gweled. She'd
probably be doing more photo organizing in either operating system if
I didn't have a gallery solution up and running. We are in fact
talking about doing something different in terms of archiving photos
since the space photos are taking up is now a significant amount of
space.

But she clearly has an advantage compared to other typical computer
users because she has a stark raving lunatic linux nut to ask when she
needs to do something new and needs to find an application that works.
Actually she has more than that, I'm proactively telling her about
'cool' new projects that I think might interest her. How do we expose
that to the general userbase at large? Can we collect 'personal
interests' and as things get added to Extras we fire off emails to
users who's personal interests overlap with the focus of the new
application package?

-jef 
-jef

[Robert 'Bob' Jensen]

Jef,

FYI I hope you are as much of a lunatic in real life as you are on IRC.

On Wed, 2005-08-24 at 16:27 -0400, Jeff Spaleta wrote:
>  On 8/24/05, Stuart Ellis <stuart(a)elsn.org&gt; wrote:
>  > I think this is a model worth looking at - CodeWeavers' "Truth in
>  > Advertising: Real Dirt":
>  > 
>  > http://www.codeweavers.com/products/cxoffice/truth_in_advertising/the_rea...
>  > 
>  > They say straight out in a simple language "What works well" *and*
> "What
>  > sort of works" and "What doesn't work"
>  
>  I like the differentiation of tangible and intangible benefits as well
>  as the split between instant benefits and long term benefits on the
>  url.  For me, and thus I would assume for other techno-socio-liberal
>  geeks, a lot of the decision making as to when and if to jump to linux
>  ends up weighing some of the grander intangibles concerning long-term
>  equitable access to digital information heavily. As a result I am
>  willing to make the dauntingly large sacrifice of no longer being able
>  to play my dusty old copy of X-wing verses Tie-fighter or The
>  Incredible Machine.
>  
>  I drank the Kool-aid, there is no going back for me, I'm quite sure I
>  look like a raving lunatic to most people.  My wife on the other hand,
>  uses a computer much more pragmatically. We negotiated a dual-boot
>  arrangement.  The machine stays booted into Fedora most of the time.
>  She boots into windows to play a few freebie games (though I've
>  introduced her to wesnoth so thats probably going to change), work
>  with sheet music composition software (the primary reason why a dual
>  boot was needed.. i couldn't find anything adequate as an open source
>  project in this area, I think she's using a cut-down version of
>  Finale), listening to the 30-second clips in itunes pretending she's
>  going to actually purchase something from the store, and on occasion
>  do some photo editting with Picasa (if only Google cranked out useful
>  cross-platform applications). As for the applications she's using the
>  most right now on linux (determined by what is on her screen everytime
>  i pass her computer), the obvious email and web browsing dominate like
>  90% of her computer usage.  Beside that, leading applications include
>  gourmet, alexandria, gnucash and openoffice followed by gweled. She'd
>  probably be doing more photo organizing in either operating system if
>  I didn't have a gallery solution up and running. We are in fact
>  talking about doing something different in terms of archiving photos
>  since the space photos are taking up is now a significant amount of
>  space.
>  
>  But she clearly has an advantage compared to other typical computer
>  users because she has a stark raving lunatic linux nut to ask when she
>  needs to do something new and needs to find an application that works.
>  Actually she has more than that, I'm proactively telling her about
>  'cool' new projects that I think might interest her. How do we expose
>  that to the general userbase at large? Can we collect 'personal
>  interests' and as things get added to Extras we fire off emails to
>  users who's personal interests overlap with the focus of the new
>  application package?
>  
>  -jef 
>  -jef
>  
>  --
>  Fedora-marketing-list mailing list
>  Fedora-marketing-list(a)redhat.com
>  http://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/fedora-marketing-list
>   
--

Bob Jensen
Linux User
http://fedoralinks.org/

[Patrick W. Barnes]

Jeff Spaleta wrote:

> Actually she has more than that, I'm proactively telling her
> about
> 'cool' new projects that I think might interest her. How do we expose
> that to the general userbase at large? Can we collect 'personal
> interests' and as things get added to Extras we fire off emails to
> users who's personal interests overlap with the focus of the new
> application package?
>
> -jef 
> -jef
>
>
>   
>  
I think having interests lists is a great idea, but I'm not sure that
what you are thinking of is really something we should tackle.  What
might be good for us is a small set of documents (I'm thinking in the
wiki) that go over what users with particular interests might like to
look in to.  What I'm thinking:

/Interests
    List of various interests
/Interests/Photos
    List of packages and tools to look at for art and photos, eg. The Gimp
/Interests/Music
    List of packages and tools to look at for music playback and
editing, eg. audacity
/Interests/Cooking
    List of packages and tools to look at for cooking, eg. krecipes


I really don't think that collecting lists of users interests and
sending out mailings would work out well.  It would take too many
resources to manage, IMHO.  A third-party, distro-neutral site might be
able to do this.  At least with this method, people could subscribe to
the wiki pages they are interested in.
-- 

Patrick "The N-Man" Barnes
nman64(a)n-man.com

www.n-man.com
--

[Jef Spaleta]

On 8/24/05, Patrick Barnes <nman64(a)n-man.com&gt; wrote:
>  I think having interests lists is a great idea, but I'm not sure
> that
>  what you are thinking of is really something we should tackle.  What
>  might be good for us is a small set of documents (I'm thinking in the
>  wiki) that go over what users with particular interests might like to
>  look in to.   
I think you missed my point. I will make it a little clearer. We can
write enough documentation to reach from the moon and back...but users
have to go read it. Documentation sitting on a website is a passive
response which will never reach some of the userbase. Some users are
only going to be reached by proactive "notification".

Using my wife as another example of this behavior in some users, since
she is of course the typical average user... the freebie games she
plays in windows are games she gets notified from a little
pre-installed taskbar icon. Some sort of online game company HP has a
partnership with. Every once in a while the little icon notifies her
of a new demo game..she downloads it and plays the few demo levels and
is amused. Would she actively search for these things? absolutely
not... but because she's being notified of new content (without being
overwhelmed. we are talking a notification a week or so) she is made
aware of it.

>  I really don't think that collecting lists of users interests
> and
>  sending out mailings would work out well.  It would take too many
>  resources to manage, IMHO.   
If Eric Meyer's attempt at putting a happy face on the comps for
Extras bears fruit.. something of merit might be managable and
implementable as a clientside tool which scrapes comps.xml from the
yum configuration to notify users of new packages based on their
grouping. A neutral entity..is doable..but is an extra upfront burden,
because they have to be told about that neutral site.. and then they
have to register with that neutral site..and then they have to sift
through projects that are in Extras yet..to find things they can
actually get reasonable access to and use. A nuetral site.. like
freshmeat is exactly what I use to find 'interesting' things.. but I
have the skills to build them and package them myself.  I've seen far
too many people blunder into an addon project and try to rebuild it
and get confused to encourage freshmeat watching as THE solution for
average computer users.  Now the comps based notification approach
might not be as fine grained as I might have orignally concieved.. but
finding a way to notify users of 'interesting' new packages even by
comps group is going to lead to far less confusion than pointing all
fedora users to a nuetral site. Since so much effort is going into
actually building Fedora specific packages in Extras..I'd rather
notify Fedora users of that first and foremost.

-jef

[Jef Spaleta]

On 8/24/05, Jeff Spaleta <jspaleta(a)gmail.com&gt; wrote:
>  Since so much effort is going into
>  actually building Fedora specific packages in Extras..I'd rather
>  notify Fedora users of that first and foremost. 
And.. while I'm thinking about it.. there is a second-order effect PR
win here.  An in-distro tool that users can use to watch "interesting"
additions to Extras gives an easy way for users to watch and be
excited about the growth of technology IN Fedora. Small reminders to
people..people like reviewers who sit and play with Fedora on their
workstation and desktop that this is an active, growing community of
contributors.

-jef

[Patrick W. Barnes]

Jeff Spaleta wrote:

> On 8/24/05, Jeff Spaleta <jspaleta(a)gmail.com&gt; wrote:
>   
>
> >Since so much effort is going into
> >actually building Fedora specific packages in Extras..I'd rather
> >notify Fedora users of that first and foremost.
> >    
> >
>
> And.. while I'm thinking about it.. there is a second-order effect PR
> win here.  An in-distro tool that users can use to watch "interesting"
> additions to Extras gives an easy way for users to watch and be
> excited about the growth of technology IN Fedora. Small reminders to
> people..people like reviewers who sit and play with Fedora on their
> workstation and desktop that this is an active, growing community of
> contributors.
>
> -jef
>
> --
> Fedora-marketing-list mailing list
> Fedora-marketing-list(a)redhat.com
> http://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/fedora-marketing-list
>
>   
>  
If we are talking about a simple notification tool that bases its
notifications on something that is configured on the local system, I
don't see a problem with it.  My concern was with the burden of managing
a list and writing the notifications.  If it is entirely automated and
doesn't require additional management at our end, it might be worth
writing a small tool to make it happen.  You've got my +1.

-- 
Patrick "The N-Man" Barnes
nman64(a)n-man.com

www.n-man.com
--

[Greg DeKoenigsberg]

I officially love this idea.

--g

_____________________  ____________________________________________
  Greg DeKoenigsberg ] [ the future masters of technology will have
 Community Relations ] [ to be lighthearted and intelligent.  the
             Red Hat ] [ machine easily masters the grim and the 
                     ] [ dumb.  --mcluhan

On Wed, 24 Aug 2005, Jeff Spaleta wrote:

>  On 8/24/05, Jeff Spaleta <jspaleta(a)gmail.com&gt; wrote:
>  > Since so much effort is going into
>  > actually building Fedora specific packages in Extras..I'd rather
>  > notify Fedora users of that first and foremost.
>  
>  And.. while I'm thinking about it.. there is a second-order effect PR
>  win here.  An in-distro tool that users can use to watch "interesting"
>  additions to Extras gives an easy way for users to watch and be
>  excited about the growth of technology IN Fedora. Small reminders to
>  people..people like reviewers who sit and play with Fedora on their
>  workstation and desktop that this is an active, growing community of
>  contributors.
>  
>  -jef
>  
>  --
>  Fedora-marketing-list mailing list
>  Fedora-marketing-list(a)redhat.com
>  http://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/fedora-marketing-list
>

[Stuart Ellis]

On Wed, 2005-08-24 at 17:32 -0400, Jeff Spaleta wrote:
>  On 8/24/05, Jeff Spaleta <jspaleta(a)gmail.com&gt; wrote:
>  > Since so much effort is going into
>  > actually building Fedora specific packages in Extras..I'd rather
>  > notify Fedora users of that first and foremost.
>  
>  And.. while I'm thinking about it.. there is a second-order effect PR
>  win here.  An in-distro tool that users can use to watch "interesting"
>  additions to Extras gives an easy way for users to watch and be
>  excited about the growth of technology IN Fedora. Small reminders to
>  people..people like reviewers who sit and play with Fedora on their
>  workstation and desktop that this is an active, growing community of
>  contributors. 
RSS ?

Fedora already includes custom bookmarks with Firefox, so adding a "live
bookmark" would be fairly trivial I guess.

We also have fedora-announce as a constantly updating source of content
(of interest to tech news junkies at least).

FedoraNews is great, and provides an RSS feed as well, although I don't
know if it's OK for linking.

May or may not be good ideas - I'm just trying to think of low-effort
ways this could be done...

-- 

Stuart Ellis

stuart(a)elsn.org

Fedora Documentation Project: http://fedora.redhat.com/projects/docs/

GPG key ID: 7098ABEA
GPG key fingerprint: 68B0 E291 FB19 C845 E60E  9569 292E E365 7098 ABEA

[Bryan Smith]

Stuart Ellis <stuart(a)elsn.org&gt; wrote:
>  RSS ?
>   ...  
>  May or may not be good ideas - I'm just trying to think of
>  low-effort ways this could be done... 
Excellent idea.  Just have someone come up with a default
page for Mozilla, Firefox, etc... that has several RSS feeds.



-- 
Bryan J. Smith                | Sent from Yahoo Mail
mailto:[e-mail]     |  (please excuse any
http://thebs413.blogspot.com/ |   missing headers)

[Karsten Wade]

On Wed, 2005-08-24 at 15:11 -0700, Bryan J. Smith wrote:
>  Stuart Ellis <stuart(a)elsn.org&gt; wrote:
>  > RSS ?
>  >  ...  
>  > May or may not be good ideas - I'm just trying to think of
>  > low-effort ways this could be done...
>  
>  Excellent idea.  Just have someone come up with a default
>  page for Mozilla, Firefox, etc... that has several RSS feeds. 
Can you bugzilla that idea, against the Fedora Documentation Project,
release-notes component?  The relnotes is where the content is coming
from, we can put that at the top.  Five items at the top, perhaps:

* What's new in Fedora Core 5
* How to get new and fun software
* Using yum to update your system
* Why no MP3s?  and more on patents and laws
* Technical release notes, a.k.a. the dirty details

Also, we need a new XSL for the relnotes.  We need a new look and feel. 

This is easier to fix, a package under our purview (Sopwith's), instead
of having to fix Firefox with new content each release, right?  We don't
have to QA the Firefox package, just the relnotes.

A pretty look with our new logo, easy access to common questions that
plague us, and our good ol' release notes, organized by beat.

- Karsten
-- 
Karsten Wade, RHCE * Sr. Tech Writer * http://people.redhat.com/kwade/
gpg fingerprint:  2680 DBFD D968 3141 0115    5F1B D992 0E06 AD0E 0C41   
                       Red Hat SELinux Guide
http://www.redhat.com/docs/manuals/enterprise/RHEL-4-Manual/selinux-guide/

[Bryan Smith]

On Sat, 2005-08-27 at 09:27 -0700, Karsten Wade wrote:
>  Can you bugzilla that idea, against the Fedora Documentation
> Project,
>  release-notes component?  The relnotes is where the content is coming
>  from, we can put that at the top.  Five items at the top, perhaps:
>  * What's new in Fedora Core 5
>  * How to get new and fun software
>  * Using yum to update your system
>  * Why no MP3s?  and more on patents and laws
>  * Technical release notes, a.k.a. the dirty details 
I guess I could if you give me a week.  I'm currently finishing off work
at a client (so I'm working 7-days/week, 10+ hours/day).

>  Also, we need a new XSL for the relnotes.  We need a new look and
>  feel.  
I'm definitely not a XSL guy.  But me see what Mr. Ashe might think of.


-- 
Bryan J. Smith     b.j.smith(a)ieee.org     http://thebs413.blogspot.com
----------------------------------------------------------------------
The best things in life are NOT free - which is why life is easiest if
you save all the bills until you can share them with the perfect woman

[Karsten Wade]

On Sat, 2005-08-27 at 12:38 -0500, Bryan J. Smith wrote:
>  On Sat, 2005-08-27 at 09:27 -0700, Karsten Wade wrote:
>  > Can you bugzilla that idea, against the Fedora Documentation Project,
>  > release-notes component?  The relnotes is where the content is coming
>  > from, we can put that at the top.  Five items at the top, perhaps:
>  > * What's new in Fedora Core 5
>  > * How to get new and fun software
>  > * Using yum to update your system
>  > * Why no MP3s?  and more on patents and laws
>  > * Technical release notes, a.k.a. the dirty details
>  
>  I guess I could if you give me a week.  I'm currently finishing off work
>  at a client (so I'm working 7-days/week, 10+ hours/day).
>  
>  > Also, we need a new XSL for the relnotes.  We need a new look and
>  > feel. 
>  
>  I'm definitely not a XSL guy.  But me see what Mr. Ashe might think of. 
Sure, that wasn't directed at you in particular, that was a generic call
to arms.

And I meant CSS, not XSL, actually.  Or, a little of both.  ;-D

- Karsten
-- 
Karsten Wade, RHCE * Sr. Tech Writer * http://people.redhat.com/kwade/
gpg fingerprint:  2680 DBFD D968 3141 0115    5F1B D992 0E06 AD0E 0C41   
                       Red Hat SELinux Guide
http://www.redhat.com/docs/manuals/enterprise/RHEL-4-Manual/selinux-guide/

[Bryan Smith]

Karsten Wade <kwade(a)redhat.com&gt; wrote:
>  And I meant CSS, not XSL, actually.  Or, a little of both.  
Yeah, I was wondering.

Of course, you'all have heard of Nvu, correct?
[ If not:  http://www.nvu.com ]

It has CaScadeS integrated.


-- 
Bryan J. Smith                | Sent from Yahoo Mail
mailto:[e-mail]     |  (please excuse any
http://thebs413.blogspot.com/ |   missing headers)

[Patrick W. Barnes]

Bryan J. Smith wrote:

> Karsten Wade <kwade(a)redhat.com&gt; wrote:
>   
>
> >And I meant CSS, not XSL, actually.  Or, a little of both. 
> >    
> >
>
> Yeah, I was wondering.
>
> Of course, you'all have heard of Nvu, correct?
> [ If not:  http://www.nvu.com ]
>
> It has CaScadeS integrated.
>
>
>   
>  
While I have heard good things about Nvu and its support for
standards-compliance and cascading style-sheets, I have a hard time
trusting WYSIWYG editors of any kind.  However, if someone wants to put
something together in Nvu, I'd be happy to review it. :-)

-- 
Patrick "The N-Man" Barnes
nman64(a)n-man.com

www.n-man.com
--

[Jef Spaleta]

>  RSS ? 
Several feeds already exist...take a look at the input feeds at
http://fedoraproject.org/infofeed/

I'm wary that the amount of information that floats by about all the
'new' packages that enter Extras is overwhelming to the average
computer user, and I want to do something primarily to make average
users aware of things they are iterested in..without overwhelming them
with information about every single perl package that makes it into
the tree. I think a trickle of targetted notification can be more
useful than a flood about everything that is going on. Just like when
we check for updates in yum or up2date, we dont tell users about ALL
updates..just the "interesting" ones for the client system.

If you want an rss feed of everything that is going on for fc4 extras
for example you use...
http://fedoraproject.org/infofeed/inputs/fc4-extras.xml
or
http://download.fedora.redhat.com/pub/fedora/linux/extras/4/i386/repodata...
the RSS feed is basically similiar to
http://download.fedora.redhat.com/pub/fedora/linux/extras/4/i386/repodata...
or to what you get by using repo-rss from yum-utils

Just for example look at at __latest__-group.html from repoview.   How
many of those packages are essentially "greek" in Judy-speak to the
average user? I appreciate every single item in such a list. I
squirrel away that knowledge in the vast storehouse of obtuse linux
information that I call the part of my brain not soaked in alcohol.
But to my wife, and most likely to the now imfamous Judy, it bet its
uninteresting at best and confusing greek at worst.

>  
>  Fedora already includes custom bookmarks with Firefox, so adding a "live
>  bookmark" would be fairly trivial I guess. 
Yes adding RSS feeds or bookmarks to the relevant fedorainfo and to
repoview for users who get hooked and want to go out and actively
learn about whats out there. But again I worry about overwhelming the
less technical user and I'd like to find a friendly way to expose them
to a trickle of new things they have self-selected as falling into an
"interesting" group without having them see all the development and
system library type packages..until they feel more at home with how
things work in linuxland.

-jef

[Stuart Ellis]

On Wed, 2005-08-24 at 19:07 -0400, Jeff Spaleta wrote:
>  > RSS ?
>  
>  Several feeds already exist...take a look at the input feeds at
>  http://fedoraproject.org/infofeed/ 
I'd missed those - thanks.

>  I'm wary that the amount of information that floats by about all
> the
>  'new' packages that enter Extras is overwhelming to the average
>  computer user, and I want to do something primarily to make average
>  users aware of things they are iterested in..without overwhelming them
>  with information about every single perl package that makes it into
>  the tree. I think a trickle of targetted notification can be more
>  useful than a flood about everything that is going on. Just like when
>  we check for updates in yum or up2date, we dont tell users about ALL
>  updates..just the "interesting" ones for the client system. 
Yes - I was thinking in terms of the "people like reviewers" point:
having RSS feeds of Fedora news there by default may be a nice feature
for people actively interested in New Cool Stuff.

Although there is vast amounts of Free Software now out there, I wonder
how many desktop apps are really polished enough to be promoted to your
average pragmatic user ? If we short listed just the stuff in Extras
that met certain criteria (usability, stability, desktop integration
etc.) we might find that we have a manageable list that changes fairly
slowly.


-- 

Stuart Ellis

stuart(a)elsn.org

Fedora Documentation Project: http://fedora.redhat.com/projects/docs/

GPG key ID: 7098ABEA
GPG key fingerprint: 68B0 E291 FB19 C845 E60E  9569 292E E365 7098 ABEA

[Karsten Wade]

On Wed, 2005-08-24 at 17:32 -0400, Jeff Spaleta wrote:
>  On 8/24/05, Jeff Spaleta <jspaleta(a)gmail.com&gt; wrote:
>  > Since so much effort is going into
>  > actually building Fedora specific packages in Extras..I'd rather
>  > notify Fedora users of that first and foremost.
>  
>  And.. while I'm thinking about it.. there is a second-order effect PR
>  win here.  An in-distro tool that users can use to watch "interesting"
>  additions to Extras gives an easy way for users to watch and be
>  excited about the growth of technology IN Fedora. Small reminders to
>  people..people like reviewers who sit and play with Fedora on their
>  workstation and desktop that this is an active, growing community of
>  contributors. 
+1

If we had a way to, even manually, parse fresh packages into finer
grains than by comp group, we could have these emails list new packages
by interest.  Maybe not every interest would have something new this
week, but perhaps there's links to all the not-new interests at the
bottom.

I think the flashy icon thing is annoying for me, but works for many.
If that flashy icon was yum (up2date-panel-widget?) so you could grab
the game immediately and, hey, why not get that kernel security update
while you are at it.

- Karsten
-- 
Karsten Wade, RHCE * Sr. Tech Writer * http://people.redhat.com/kwade/
gpg fingerprint:  2680 DBFD D968 3141 0115    5F1B D992 0E06 AD0E 0C41   
                       Red Hat SELinux Guide
http://www.redhat.com/docs/manuals/enterprise/RHEL-4-Manual/selinux-guide/

[Jef Spaleta]

On 8/27/05, Karsten Wade <kwade(a)redhat.com&gt; wrote:
>  I think the flashy icon thing is annoying for me, but works for
> many.
>  If that flashy icon was yum (up2date-panel-widget?) so you could grab
>  the game immediately and, hey, why not get that kernel security update
>  while you are at it. 
IF the notifier was going to ever be implemented, then i would of
course like this feature to be integrated into whatever new notifier
is to replace rhn-applet. So that the single notifier could be used
for "relevant updates" as well as "new and interesting"

-jef

[Bryan Smith]

Greg DeKoenigsberg <gdk(a)redhat.com&gt; wrote:
>  This is one potential user of Fedora: Judy, from Arizona. 
>  She sent in a letter to the editor of Red Hat Magazine that
>  makes me weep inside.
>  What do we have to say to her? 
Oh, this is a simple one.
1.  Terminology
2.  Red Hat provides services, but Linux is a community
3.  Linux software on Windows

First off, you explain that you apologize but there is a
great shift in terminology from Windows to UNIX-like systems
including Linux.  This is often part of the learning curve,
much like a Macintosh can be for a Windows user as well.

Secondly, you explain that Red Hat services, including
business, are often for a price, just as Microsoft services
are.  But both are geared towards business.  But the great
think about Linux, unlike Windows, is that there community of
users -- most likely already local to her -- that are more
than willing to help her for free.

[ Send her info on her local Linux user group ]

Third, you can point out that Linux can run on Windows, in
the form of spyware-free, virus-free Free Software like
Firefox, OpenOffice.org, etc...  If she is finding the
interface and greek of a UNIX-like system too much, she can
greatly benefit from running a lot of the Linux software on
Windows, instead of going directly to Linux today.  And
because she will be saving all new data in all new formats,
when she eventually does switch to Linux, the transition will
be much easier.



-- 
Bryan J. Smith                | Sent from Yahoo Mail
mailto:[e-mail]     |  (please excuse any
http://thebs413.blogspot.com/ |   missing headers)

[Andy Hudson]

Greg DeKoenigsberg wrote:
>  This is one potential user of Fedora: Judy, from Arizona.  She sent
> in a 
>  letter to the editor of Red Hat Magazine that makes me weep inside.
>  
>  What do we have to say to her?
>  
>  --g 
>  
>  Dear Red Hat,  I hope you will get this e-mail.  I am a single user
>  computer person.  I put yes down - so I could receive your e-mails.
>  To tell you the truth I do not know why.  Your main emphasis seems to
>  be on business.  I switched from Windows because I thought it would
>  be safer and healthier all the way round.  To tell you the truth I
>  feel totally lost in your system.  I cannot use my CDs that have
>  games.  I downloaded a game I had paid for.  No way could I get it to
>  work.  I wrote to Linux Game.  Their directions were like Greek, and
>  I only speak English.  I tried to download the anti-virus I use.
>  They have a version for Linux.  No way did I get that.  I looked
>  into your training, but that is extremely costly.  I have bought
>  books.  It all come s down to the fact There is little I am able to
>  do with Linux.  Mostly I would like to have a plug-in that works, as
>  to the fact there are many things I am unable to open, including some
>  mail, because I can find no way to do it.  Dear Red Hat - what are
>  you doing for us little people out here?  I am no further today than
>  I was the day this was installed.  Thank you, Judy D.
>   
Greg,

I feel your pain on this one - here is someone who has heard all of the 
good things about Linux and Fedora but cannot translate what she has 
heard into a useable system for her.

As Jeff mentioned, he feels that he is in the 1% tail of geekdom which 
will never be able to translate the tech speak into everyday terms.

Why don't we take this opportunity to ask Judy/Sue/whoever about the 
barriers that she actually came up against - did she go to Google and be 
over-run with the many countless options available?

One of the things people enjoy is belonging - if we could convince 
Judy/Sue and perhaps a couple of other total newbies to 'reality check' 
documentation such as the installation guide then that would be worth a 
fortune to Fedora and the FDP. Emphasise that this is important to us - 
it's obviously important to Judy/Sue to succeed in Linux!

I'm going to suggest a moving to Fedora from Windows FAQ for absolute 
newbies, but I'm going to do this on the docs-list.

Thanks,

Andrew

[Rahul Sundaram]

HI

>  I'm going to suggest a moving to Fedora from Windows FAQ for absolute 
>  newbies, but I'm going to do this on the docs-list. 
A more comprehensive guide with a list of equivalent applications, how 
to migrate data etc would be quite useful. Lets focus on that

regards
Rahul

[Andy Hudson]

Rahul Sundaram wrote:
>  HI
>  
> >
> > I'm going to suggest a moving to Fedora from Windows FAQ for absolute 
> > newbies, but I'm going to do this on the docs-list.
>  
>  
>  A more comprehensive guide with a list of equivalent applications, how 
>  to migrate data etc would be quite useful. Lets focus on that
>  
>  regards
>  Rahul
>  
>  -- 
>  Fedora-marketing-list mailing list
>  Fedora-marketing-list(a)redhat.com
>  http://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/fedora-marketing-list
>   
Rahul,

A more comprehensive list opens up the fear factor for newbies - do I 
really want to include things like MS Exchange replacements, SQL Server 
replacements etc etc when all the end user wants to know is where did 
Word go? If we were to provide a comprehensive list then it suddenly 
becomes more daunting when the new user gets hold of it.

I agree in principle that a comprehensive list of Linux alternatives to 
popular Windows based software is a good idea. I just think that a 
sub-set of this could be created with the express purpose of giving 
someone like Judy/Sue an easy to read introduction that briefly 
describes each Linux alternative with enough information to get her 
started and to get her looking for further information elsewhere.

Thanks,

Andrew

[Rahul Sundaram]

HI

> >
>  Rahul,
>
>  A more comprehensive list opens up the fear factor for newbies - do I 
>  really want to include things like MS Exchange replacements, SQL 
>  Server replacements etc etc when all the end user wants to know is 
>  where did Word go? If we were to provide a comprehensive list then it 
>  suddenly becomes more daunting when the new user gets hold of it.
>
>  I agree in principle that a comprehensive list of Linux alternatives 
>  to popular Windows based software is a good idea. I just think that a 
>  sub-set of this could be created with the express purpose of giving 
>  someone like Judy/Sue an easy to read introduction that briefly 
>  describes each Linux alternative with enough information to get her 
>  started and to get her looking for further information elsewhere.  
We can initially focus on the desktop uses and add in additional 
information in a advanced section for other users depending on how 
useful the guide turns out to be

regards
Rahul

[Bryan Smith]

Andrew Hudson <webmanagement(a)gmail.com&gt; wrote:
>  A more comprehensive list opens up the fear factor for
>  newbies - do I really want to include things like MS
>  Exchange replacements, SQL Server replacements etc etc when
>  all the end user wants to know is where did Word go? If we
>  were to provide a comprehensive list then it suddenly 
>  becomes more daunting when the new user gets hold of it. 
I agree.  Don't try to make an "all-in-one" FAQ.
Break it up into:  
- Linux for Windows Users
- Linux for Windows Enthusiasts
- Linux for Windows Developers
- Linux for Windows Internet Administrators
- Linux for Windows LAN Administrators
- Linux for Windows Database Administrators

It's important that you separate Internet and LAN, or even
database, concepts.  Nothing makes me roll my eyes more than
people who only have experience with Internet services trying
to help Windows people who run LAN file/print services or
ACID databases.



-- 
Bryan J. Smith                | Sent from Yahoo Mail
mailto:[e-mail]     |  (please excuse any
http://thebs413.blogspot.com/ |   missing headers)

[Paul W. Frields]

On Wed, 2005-08-24 at 18:50 +0100, Andrew Hudson wrote:
>  Greg DeKoenigsberg wrote:
>  > This is one potential user of Fedora: Judy, from Arizona.  She sent in a 
>  > letter to the editor of Red Hat Magazine that makes me weep inside.
>  > 
>  > What do we have to say to her?
>  > 
>  > --g
>  
>  > 
>  > Dear Red Hat,  I hope you will get this e-mail.  I am a single user
>  > computer person.  I put yes down - so I could receive your e-mails.
>  > To tell you the truth I do not know why.  Your main emphasis seems to
>  > be on business.  I switched from Windows because I thought it would
>  > be safer and healthier all the way round.  To tell you the truth I
>  > feel totally lost in your system.  I cannot use my CDs that have
>  > games.  I downloaded a game I had paid for.  No way could I get it to
>  > work.  I wrote to Linux Game.  Their directions were like Greek, and
>  > I only speak English.  I tried to download the anti-virus I use.
>  > They have a version for Linux.  No way did I get that.  I looked
>  > into your training, but that is extremely costly.  I have bought
>  > books.  It all come s down to the fact There is little I am able to
>  > do with Linux.  Mostly I would like to have a plug-in that works, as
>  > to the fact there are many things I am unable to open, including some
>  > mail, because I can find no way to do it.  Dear Red Hat - what are
>  > you doing for us little people out here?  I am no further today than
>  > I was the day this was installed.  Thank you, Judy D.
>  > 
>  
>  Greg,
>  
>  I feel your pain on this one - here is someone who has heard all of the 
>  good things about Linux and Fedora but cannot translate what she has 
>  heard into a useable system for her.
>  
>  As Jeff mentioned, he feels that he is in the 1% tail of geekdom which 
>  will never be able to translate the tech speak into everyday terms.
>  
>  Why don't we take this opportunity to ask Judy/Sue/whoever about the 
>  barriers that she actually came up against - did she go to Google and be 
>  over-run with the many countless options available?
>  
>  One of the things people enjoy is belonging - if we could convince 
>  Judy/Sue and perhaps a couple of other total newbies to 'reality check' 
>  documentation such as the installation guide then that would be worth a 
>  fortune to Fedora and the FDP. Emphasise that this is important to us - 
>  it's obviously important to Judy/Sue to succeed in Linux! 
I posted to f-docs-l with some suggestion about how to leverage this
into the Mentoring program but I guess the reply has gone out already...
I may contact her directly with an offer of help.  Although that doesn't
solve the problem, it gets us in touch with someone who can help us
(Docs team) understand what people want first, second, etc.

>  I'm going to suggest a moving to Fedora from Windows FAQ for
> absolute 
>  newbies, but I'm going to do this on the docs-list. 
This is not a bad idea, and I think this should be more than just a list
of program equivalencies.  It would involve explaining what people see,
from boot to use case, that differs, and gives them the information they
need to understand the critical differences.  (Note that this is not the
same as, "explain everything about what they see and why it's different.
Normal users don't care, they just want to know where to click to make
things work.)

[Patrick W. Barnes]

Rather than spout off about what we should tell her, I'll take the
approach of writing a draft letter:
----

Dear Judy,

I am sorry that you have not fully enjoyed your experience with Linux so
far. Linux and Windows are drastically different operating systems, and
it can be a frustrating change when you are just starting.

One of the complaints we hear the most is about games that do not work.
Because Windows and Linux are different operating systems, Linux cannot
run programs that were built for Windows. Many programs, such as
Firefox, are built for both. The games that you have on CDs are most
likely not built to run on Linux. You can contact the manufacturers to
see if they have produced Linux versions. As an alternative, there are
many games available for Linux. A lot of these are available as packages
for Red Hat's distribution. There is a big advantage here: they're free!

<insert installation instructions here>

If there are games for Windows that you really want to get running, you
can look into Transgaming's Cedega. This is a commercial program that
may be able to get some of your Windows games running under Linux.

As for your anti-virus software, there really isn't much need for
anti-virus software on a Linux desktop. That's one security advantage of
Linux. If you would feel more comfortable having anti-virus software,
ClamAV is readily available and completely free.

<insert installation instructions here>

We understand that you probably don't want to spend a great deal of
money to learn Linux. Most Linux users are tech-savvy folks who read
information online and use Google a lot. There may, however, be less
expensive and easier options for you. You might be able to find basic
classes in your area, or you might be able to connect with a local Linux
User Group (LUG) that can help you get started or point you to useful
resources. We have looked it up, and found the following information for
groups in your area:

<insert information here>

We are always working hard to make Linux systems easier and more
intuitive to use. We don't want you to be stuck with Windows because our
systems aren't easy enough. There are very large community teams
constantly working to make Linux work for you.

One of the best ways to really get moving with Linux is to get in touch
with the community. You'll find that while there are many people who
speek what sounds like Greek to you, there are also many average folks
out there who are ready to answer your questions and work with you to
help you get things done. Forums, IRC chat, and mailing lists are all
popular options. We have put together a short list of links to put you
in touch with the community.

<insert information here>

We do understand your frustration, and are working hard to ease the
transition. We hope that you will not give up on Linux, and will stick
with us as Linux grows. We value feedback like yours to tell us where we
need to focus. We look forward to hearing from you again in the future,
hopefully with better news.

----
Okay, there's my draft. Do with it as you will.

-- 
Patrick "The N-Man" Barnes
nman64(a)n-man.com

www.n-man.com
--

[Michael Schwendt]

On 24/08/05, Patrick Barnes wrote:

>  One of the complaints we hear the most is about games that do not
> work.
>  Because Windows and Linux are different operating systems, Linux cannot
>  run programs that were built for Windows.  
Old Linux games don't work either, since newbies simply don't know
where to get missing compatibility libraries.

>  As an alternative, there are
>  many games available for Linux. A lot of these are available as packages
>  for Red Hat's distribution. There is a big advantage here: they're free! 
Please don't turn your reply into a joke. "There are many games
available for Linux"? Huh? Really? Linux is not even at the beginning
of being a competitor in the games market.

>  If there are games for Windows that you really want to get running,
> you
>  can look into Transgaming's Cedega. This is a commercial program that
>  may be able to get some of your Windows games running under Linux. 
Do you have special experience with this to back up your "may be able"
theory? I would be very (!) careful with a statement/recommendation
like that.
 
>  One of the best ways to really get moving with Linux is to get in
> touch
>  with the community. 
Right. And seek for a real dialogue, not just poorly written letters
which lack any details and give the impression of somebody doing some
role-playing.

[Rahul Sundaram]

Michael Schwendt wrote:

> On 24/08/05, Patrick Barnes wrote:
>
>   
>
> >One of the complaints we hear the most is about games that do not work.
> >Because Windows and Linux are different operating systems, Linux cannot
> >run programs that were built for Windows. 
> >    
> >
>
> Old Linux games don't work either, since newbies simply don't know
> where to get missing compatibility libraries.
>
>   
>
> >As an alternative, there are
> >many games available for Linux. A lot of these are available as packages
> >for Red Hat's distribution. There is a big advantage here: they're free!
> >    
> >
>
> Please don't turn your reply into a joke. "There are many games
> available for Linux"? Huh? Really? Linux is not even at the beginning
> of being a competitor in the games market.
>   
>  
They might be not very competitive 3D shooter ones but there are 
certainly many games for Linux.   Apart from ones included in GNOME and 
KDE,  even Fedora Extras has a small collection

http://fedoraproject.org/extras/4/i386/repodata/repoview/games.group.html

I am sure other gamers could point to you several Linux gaming websites 
for more.


> >If there are games for Windows that you really want to get
> running, you
> >can look into Transgaming's Cedega. This is a commercial program that
> >may be able to get some of your Windows games running under Linux.
> >    
> >
>
> Do you have special experience with this to back up your "may be able"
> theory? I would be very (!) careful with a statement/recommendation
> like that.
>   
>  
Why?. Its a well known fact that cedega runs a lot of Windows games. 
They have a public list

http://transgaming.org/gamesdb/

Its a recommendation from one users to another. I dont see a reason to 
make a big fuss about it


> >One of the best ways to really get moving with Linux is to get in
> touch
> >with the community.
> >    
> >
>
> Right. And seek for a real dialogue, not just poorly written letters
> which lack any details and give the impression of somebody doing some
> role-playing.
>   
>  
I find your response too harsh in general.  If you do have to be 
critical there are much better ways to go about doing it

regards
Rahul

[Bryan Smith]

Rahul Sundaram <sundaram(a)redhat.com&gt; wrote:
>  They might be not very competitive 3D shooter ones but
>  there are certainly many games for Linux. 
Excuse me?

The Linux binary for Unreal Tournament 2003 and 2004 comes
in-the-box.  The latest box set has the 64-bit version for
Linux which _outperforms_ the 64-bit version for Windows
(because of how poorly XP 64-bit Edition works, the 64-bit
version for Windows is _slower_ than the 32-bit version). 

>  I am sure other gamers could point to you several Linux
>  gaming websites for more. 
There are about 50 major game ports for Linux.  Most of them
are 2-3 years old before the Linux binary appeared.

As far as GPL/Open Source game engines, yes, they are not
leading edge.  But some of them aren't half-bad.



-- 
Bryan J. Smith                | Sent from Yahoo Mail
mailto:[e-mail]     |  (please excuse any
http://thebs413.blogspot.com/ |   missing headers)

[Rahul Sundaram]

Bryan J. Smith wrote:

> Rahul Sundaram <sundaram(a)redhat.com&gt; wrote:
>   
>
> >They might be not very competitive 3D shooter ones but
> >there are certainly many games for Linux.
> >    
> >
>
> Excuse me?
>
> The Linux binary for Unreal Tournament 2003 and 2004 comes
> in-the-box.  The latest box set has the 64-bit version for
> Linux which _outperforms_ the 64-bit version for Windows
> (because of how poorly XP 64-bit Edition works, the 64-bit
> version for Windows is _slower_ than the 32-bit version). 
>   
>  
I was talking in the context of Fedora and open source games. Even with 
proprietary games and drivers the Linux gaming market has low visibility

regards
Rahul

[Bryan Smith]

On Fri, 2005-08-26 at 11:04 +0530, Rahul Sundaram wrote:
>  I was talking in the context of Fedora and open source games. 
Then say open source.  ;->

>  Even with proprietary games and drivers the Linux gaming market has
>  low visibility 
Of course.  And I agreed.

But even then, consoles are now the flag carrier of games, even in the
Windows space.


-- 
Bryan J. Smith     b.j.smith(a)ieee.org     http://thebs413.blogspot.com
----------------------------------------------------------------------
The best things in life are NOT free - which is why life is easiest if
you save all the bills until you can share them with the perfect woman

[Bryan Smith]

Michael Schwendt <mschwendt(a)gmail.com&gt; wrote:
>  Old Linux games don't work either, since newbies simply
>  don't know where to get missing compatibility libraries. 
Actually, I disagree.  If you do a full install, the
compat-libs are just fine.

My Fedora Core 3 still seems to run all games going back to
Red Hat Linux 7, and a few for Red Hat Linux 6.  It's really
more of a pre/post GCC 3 / GLibC 2 thing than a Red Hat
thing.

>  Please don't turn your reply into a joke. "There are many
>  games available for Linux"? Huh? Really? Linux is not even
>  at the beginning of being a competitor in the games market. 
Depends on your viewpoint.

First off, games are _razor_thin_ margins and it is _not_ a
profitable industry unless you do volume.  As much as I thank
Loki for their attempts, it was a pipe dream.  It wasn't
because of pirating, God knows I spent $300 on Loki products
(and not just the "leftover bin" but _full_price_) and I know
others did too.

Secondly, Linux _is_ the predominate, leading gaming
development platform.  The Sony PS2 and Nintendo GameCube
development systems are GNU/Linux.  And Maya and other 3D
tools dominate the mid-to-high-end gaming landscape.  The
problem is support, not ports.

So, lastly, there _are_ a number of game ports for Linux. 
Yes, some don't come about until the engine releases their
code GPL, but others are done under NDA.  No, you typically
don't get them in the box -- only the Unreal Tournament 2003+
releases seem to ship a Linux binary in the box, but they are
found.

Linux gaming is the console.  I don't see it dominating the
desktop.  Heck, even my only Windows system in my house is my
X-box, and consoles are better.

-- 
Bryan J. Smith                | Sent from Yahoo Mail
mailto:[e-mail]     |  (please excuse any
http://thebs413.blogspot.com/ |   missing headers)

[Patrick W. Barnes]

Michael Schwendt wrote:

> On 24/08/05, Patrick Barnes wrote:
>
>   
>
> >One of the complaints we hear the most is about games that do not work.
> >Because Windows and Linux are different operating systems, Linux cannot
> >run programs that were built for Windows. 
> >    
> >
>
> Old Linux games don't work either, since newbies simply don't know
> where to get missing compatibility libraries.
>
>   
>  
I really haven't seen this as a problem.  Most games that are available
for Linux will run on current Fedora versions, even without
compatibility libraries.  Take a look at the selection in Extras, and
visit happypenguin.org.  The few that do require compatibility libraries
will usually work on a Fedora full install anyway, thanks to the
inclusion of the compat libs.

> >As an alternative, there are
> >many games available for Linux. A lot of these are available as packages
> >for Red Hat's distribution. There is a big advantage here: they're free!
> >    
> >
>
> Please don't turn your reply into a joke. "There are many games
> available for Linux"? Huh? Really? Linux is not even at the beginning
> of being a competitor in the games market.
>
>   
>  
No joke.  There may not be the same kind of selection for Linux as there
is for Windows, but there are plenty to keep you busy for a while.  If
you go looking for a specific game, you might be disappointed, but open
your eyes and you'll find a lot of fun games.

> >If there are games for Windows that you really want to get
> running, you
> >can look into Transgaming's Cedega. This is a commercial program that
> >may be able to get some of your Windows games running under Linux.
> >    
> >
>
> Do you have special experience with this to back up your "may be able"
> theory? I would be very (!) careful with a statement/recommendation
> like that.
>  
>   
>  
It is proven software.  I say "may be able" because she might try to run
games that won't work, but Cedega does a pretty good job with most
Windows games, and I have seen proof of that first-hand.

> >One of the best ways to really get moving with Linux is to get in
> touch
> >with the community.
> >    
> >
>
> Right. And seek for a real dialogue, not just poorly written letters
> which lack any details and give the impression of somebody doing some
> role-playing.
>   
>  
Now that's just rude.  I would like to see you write a better letter
given the limited amount of information.  The fact that you chose to
nitpick on the games shows where your interests are.  It would be
foolish to attempt to go into greater detail regarding the games.  As
far as role-playing, I would like to know just what role you think I am
playing.  I am a gamer, a Linux expert, and I handle a lot of end-user
support, including support for gamers.  I am not playing in any sense. 
This is a subject I am very familiar with, and it is the kind of thing I
deal with on a regular basis.  If you deem yourself so qualified to
judge in such a manner, lets see your credentials.

My letter was provided for reference only.  There is no need to start a
drawn-out thread arguing back and forth on its merits or shortcomings. 
If you don't like it, you are free to ignore it, just like everyone else
is.  If you think you can do a better job, you are free to write your
own letter and provide it for review.  I don't care to argue about it.

-- 
Patrick "The N-Man" Barnes
nman64(a)n-man.com

www.n-man.com
--

[Michael Schwendt]

On 26/08/05, Patrick Barnes wrote:
>  
>  Most games that are available
>  for Linux will run on current Fedora versions, even without
>  compatibility libraries.  Take a look at the selection in Extras, and
>  visit happypenguin.org.  The few that do require compatibility libraries
>  will usually work on a Fedora full install anyway, thanks to the
>  inclusion of the compat libs. 
What are we talking about? Open Source games programmed by hobbyists
or commercial games?

As for "the selection in Extras", I don't monitor games in there.
Well, I've taken over development and maintainership of the "Battle
for Wesnoth" package some time ago because the primary package owner
cannot commit to cvs. But hey, none of the games in Extras can compete
with the big selling titles which the usual game freak would love to
play as soon as they are sold and tested in print magazines.

>  >>One of the best ways to really get moving with Linux is to
> get in touch
>  >>with the community.
>  >>
>  >>
>  >
>  >Right. And seek for a real dialogue, not just poorly written letters
>  >which lack any details and give the impression of somebody doing some
>  >role-playing.
>  >
>  >
>  Now that's just rude. 
No, it's a quick reality check. Maybe you misunderstood it. But you
take such a letter to Red Hat Magazine far too serious. That's IMHO.
YMMV.  There is no silver bullet for dealing with input like that. 
Don't assume that a single reply, however long it may get, will
satisfy "Judy D.", who did not even have the courage to sign the
letter with her full name. She's misinformed about "Linux" in so many
ways and throws in a few things which you take as a bait.

>  I would like to see you write a better letter
>  given the limited amount of information.  
That's it, "limited amount of information". The amount is so terribly
limited, get her into a dialogue if you are really serious about
trying to contact her. Analyse her problems step by step. She mentions
"things she cannot do", "a plugin she would like to have", "mail
she
cannot open". Gosh! How vague and poorly written can a mail to Red Hat
be? Has she spent more than a minute on writing that letter? Did she
really expect a reply for such a lousy letter? Has she ever before
visited a Linux related message board or mailing-list?

>  The fact that you chose to
>  nitpick on the games shows where your interests are. It would be
>  foolish to attempt to go into greater detail regarding the games.   
Quote: "To tell you the truth I feel totally lost in your system.  I
cannot use my CDs that have games.  I downloaded a game I had paid
for.  No way could I get it to work. "

Problems with games is not only her major complaint, it is a common
complaint elsewhere, too.

>  As
>  far as role-playing, I would like to know just what role you think I am
>  playing. 
Not you, "Judy D.". It's really amazing IMO. Such a lousy letter, and
big activity here.

[Jeremy Hogan]

This whole thread is an example of why we can't answer Judy. ;)

If I got this letter, I would respond to her directly with an offer to
help her get some of these things done, and show her places I go to
find information or apps or games or plug-ins. Where people like me --
that might also help her next time -- also hang out.

Judy was not born with the knowledge of Windows, Word or any of the
games she is looking to play. I know nothing of her personally, but
I'll bet if she learned Windows enough to be content, she can learn
Linux. She doesn't need a lecture on free v. Free, or how she's not
ready for Linux or how it's not ready for her. She doesn't need anyone
to point out all the things she can't do, when it's probably a much
shorter list to lay out what she can do.

She needs a letter like Patrick took a whack at. Then she'll *see*
Linux is not a product, but a community and we won't have to tell her.

--jeremy

[Bryan Smith]

On Fri, 2005-08-26 at 16:15 +0200, Michael Schwendt wrote:
>  Problems with games is not only her major complaint, it is a common
>  complaint elsewhere, too. 
How many times do I have to say it, the gaming industry has razor-thin
margins.  It is not very profitable.  Heck, many of developers are now
skipping Windows PCs!

Which brings me to that point.  Windows PCs aren't exactly a dream
either when it comes to games!

Case-in-point:  Leave the majority of the gaming market to the set-top
systems.  Many of them are moving to Linux anyway, and most development
for them is already done on Linux.


-- 
Bryan J. Smith     b.j.smith(a)ieee.org     http://thebs413.blogspot.com
----------------------------------------------------------------------
The best things in life are NOT free - which is why life is easiest if
you save all the bills until you can share them with the perfect woman

[Marc Wiriadisastra]

>  
>  Do you have special experience with this to back up your "may be able"
>  theory? I would be very (!) careful with a statement/recommendation
>  like that.
>   
>  > One of the best ways to really get moving with Linux is to get in touch
>  > with the community. 
I do have special experience relating to this.  I subscribe to cedega
because I don't want to have to use my microsoft partition at all so I
choose to spend money.  I would prefer to use that money and give it to
the wine project however they are not there yet.

The specific games that I play work and in fact for me the fps
difference is 10fps compared to windows so me personally I'm willing to
sacrifice that for running linux 24/7

Also on the transgaming website there is a games database note the *'s
are what they support.

Regards,

Marc