Hi
Fedora needs a mechanism to collect user and hardware information with a opt-in mechanism. Similar lines of discussions here
http://mail.gnome.org/archives/desktop-devel-list/2005-July/msg00042.html
What do you think is the best way to do this?
regards Rahul
On Tue, Jul 05, 2005 at 12:27:30PM +0530, Rahul Sundaram wrote:
Fedora needs a mechanism to collect user and hardware information with a opt-in mechanism. Similar lines of discussions here http://mail.gnome.org/archives/desktop-devel-list/2005-July/msg00042.html What do you think is the best way to do this?
Not sure about how to do it, but it'd be nice if it also included package installation/use info a la the Debian Popularity Contest http://popcon.debian.org/.
Matthew Miller wrote:
On Tue, Jul 05, 2005 at 12:27:30PM +0530, Rahul Sundaram wrote:
Fedora needs a mechanism to collect user and hardware information with a opt-in mechanism. Similar lines of discussions here http://mail.gnome.org/archives/desktop-devel-list/2005-July/msg00042.html What do you think is the best way to do this?
Not sure about how to do it, but it'd be nice if it also included package installation/use info a la the Debian Popularity Contest http://popcon.debian.org/.
Ok so the following tasks then
* A tool to collect package stats * A tool to collect hardware information * A form to fill out for users to send in more information to the project with appropriate "incentives" to do it
regards Rahul
Am Di, den 05.07.2005 schrieb Rahul Sundaram um 14:27:
Fedora needs a mechanism to collect user and hardware information with a opt-in mechanism. Similar lines of discussions here http://mail.gnome.org/archives/desktop-devel-list/2005-July/msg00042.html
I like the idea to know something about the user base (how much users in the different countries, gender proportion [Fedora attractive for female users?], Gnome | KDE rating).
What do you think is the best way to do this?
I feel it is a must that the data collection is on a volunteers basis. It must be easy to understand, easy to give away data - to know to whom and how much personalized! - and easy to quit submitting the own data. Clear list of transfered information. Any kind of doubts like with the Microsoft Windows® build-in update process must be strictly avoided.
Not sure about how to do it, but it'd be nice if it also included package installation/use info a la the Debian Popularity Contest http://popcon.debian.org/.
Nice too. Could be an indicator what to have in Core and what in Extras. Rating third party repository popularity.
Ok so the following tasks then
- A tool to collect package stats
- A tool to collect hardware information
Remembering back the days of Red Hat Linux up2date did something like that. So some code should be there (please don't ask me how much it qualifies for Fedora purposes). RHN registration was an enforcement back in these days to be able to use up2date.
- A form to fill out for users to send in more information to the
project with appropriate "incentives" to do it
Yes, must be attractive for the Fedora user to spent time and to offer data. Fedora project gains data, the individual user feels bound to the OS in some way ("proud to be Fedora")
Rahul
Some unsorted quick thoughts: - reliable insurance that data can't be misused and be removed by user on request - menu entry or applet for ease of use - applet showing the current Fedora population - world map with locations of registered users (not naming them, not required form entry) - each registered user gets his personal registration number (like http://counter.li.org/), maybe some kind of "certificate" like the seti@home project generates one for number of processed seti packages; counter for age of Fedora community "membership"? - heartbeat functionality to release old database host entries where user didn't signed off - once done initial data registration user must get explicit note about scheduled recollection and must be able to cancel processing
Alexander
On 7/5/05, Rahul Sundaram sundaram@redhat.com wrote:
- A tool to collect package stats
- A tool to collect hardware information
- A form to fill out for users to send in more information to the
project with appropriate "incentives" to do it
I'd rather know why we..as fedora..are collecting any of this information before we collect it. I want to see concrete plans on how this information is going to be used before we start collecting. Who is going to datamine that package stats information and for what constructive purpose? Who is going to datamine that hardware information and for what constructive purpose? Who is going to datamine geographic and other userdata and for what constructive purpose?
I am very much not inclined to building a treasure trove of data... just to have it around because people are somewhat interested in knowing things about the userbase. If there are no concrete plans to use the data as it comes in, I think having a mountain of data its only going to prove to be a burden.
Gnome has a stated goal cleverly named "10x10". Getting an estimate of the number of gnome users is clearly needed to know if they are on track to reach that specific goal. Fedora on the other hand, has no grandiose user adoption targets. I don't see a driving reason to build this mountain of information up.
I don't see any credible discussion that people agree that the popcon concept is something Fedora is willing to adopt or any other need for use package stats data. I don't see any credible discussion about user adoption targets that could possible need userdata for feedback. I don't see any credible discussion about doing something worthwhile with hardware data if we had it.
All i see are some vague expressions of desire to leisurely mine data to get some trending statistics. I don't think that is a good enough reason to start building up the data. I think there needs to be commitment to actually use and process the data as it rolls in. Sitting on a mountain of userdata without doing anything with it as it comes in, is just going to lead to a grotesque mess as people with specific agendas start mining historic data to try to strong arm discussion.
-jef
Jeff Spaleta wrote:
On 7/5/05, Rahul Sundaram sundaram@redhat.com wrote:
- A tool to collect package stats
- A tool to collect hardware information
- A form to fill out for users to send in more information to the
project with appropriate "incentives" to do it
I'd rather know why we..as fedora..are collecting any of this information before we collect it. I want to see concrete plans on how this information is going to be used before we start collecting. Who is going to datamine that package stats information and for what constructive purpose? Who is going to datamine that hardware information and for what constructive purpose? Who is going to datamine geographic and other userdata and for what constructive purpose?
I am very much not inclined to building a treasure trove of data... just to have it around because people are somewhat interested in knowing things about the userbase. If there are no concrete plans to use the data as it comes in, I think having a mountain of data its only going to prove to be a burden.
Marketing: Where do we stand in terms of number of users and what kind of users Fedora is attracting Development : What type of hardware works, Whats packages is being utilised more?. What can be moved into extras?
regards Rahul
On 7/7/05, Rahul Sundaram sundaram@redhat.com wrote:
Marketing: Where do we stand in terms of number of users and what kind of users Fedora is attracting
You need to be very careful here... Are there plans to attract or discourage a specific "kind" of user? I'm not sure knowing precise numbers as to the demographics of users provides any useful information unless there is a stated goal or a commitment to service a specific demographic or a stated goal or commitment to reach certain adoption levels (relative or absolute) among different demographics. I haven't seen any discussion about aims or goals about demographics targets. If Fedora installs seem to be relatively low in Finland compared to Brazil, does it matter? Is there a number of installed systems target we are shooting for? If Fedora is popular with one "kind" of users and not so popular with another "kind" of user... do you work to balance that, even if it means making it less popular with the larger group? Or do you aim efforts at making things more appealing to the "kind" of user already drawn to the project and the distro? I think these larger questions need to be answered before you collect any demographics data. As I said before, Gnome at least has some (wacky) stated adoption goals for which that want data for to use to track progress towards that goal. Fedora doesn't have any adoption goals really, and until we agree on goals with regard to adoption demographics I don't see a reason to collect data about it.
Development : What type of hardware works,
Is there a commitment from anyone to actually mine that data as it comes in? And just as importantly... to follow up on reports of brokenness as updated packages come. A usable HCL list is going to take real manpower.. and can't be automated. Creating a big data dump without someone committed to actively maintain it seems counter-productive to me. You run the very real risk of having issues linger as "broken" well after they are fixed. if it takes 6 months for a human being to actual mine data about broken hardware... thats not particularly useful information for this project, thats a pretty long time scale in comparison to how quickly update packages get pushed out that impact hardware. This might be useful raw data for developers, I'd like to see what the kernel and X.org developers think about auto-collecting data about "working" or "broken" hardware and if having a big datadump like that would be useful for them in terms of identifying problem areas. If they don't find it useful to build up databank of "raw" data, its probably not going to be worthwhile for end-users. An end-user oriented HCL is going to require a team of people who are committed to sifting through the reports and following up on broken issues as they get fixed with updates quickly. I want to see people step up and commit to that before data is collected.
Whats packages is being utilised more?. What can be moved into extras?
Even if you could measure the utility of a package in an accurate way that reasonable accounted for the skew related to "default installs.".. i've seen NO credible discussion among the release team nor the Core developers that popularity or utility is an important criteria for any decisions with regard to Core. I do not want data to be collected about popularity until there is consensous that relative "popularity", "installed", or "usage" of a package is something that is actually going to impact decision-making by the people who actually make those decisions. Taking this data, without a commitment to use this data.. is just going to create opportunities for people to argue unconstructively. First get agreement from Core release team and maintiainers that "utility" or "popularity" of a package is important to the decision to keep it in Core or not, then take the data if that is the concensous view of the people who make these decisions.
-jef
On Tue, 5 Jul 2005, Rahul Sundaram wrote:
Fedora needs a mechanism to collect user and hardware information with a opt-in mechanism. Similar lines of discussions here
http://mail.gnome.org/archives/desktop-devel-list/2005-July/msg00042.html
What do you think is the best way to do this?
The 'install coverage testing' project would have done this. I have a really good idea how it 'should' work. The main challenge is finding someone with time to work on it.
Best, -- Elliot You can accomplish anything you want, so long as you don't care who gets credit for it.
marketing@lists.fedoraproject.org