OK, so we need to come to a decision on how Fedora mailing lists will work as we grow, because we're starting to get requests from various folks to start them up.
We've got the following options to consider:
1. Continuing to host mailing lists at Red Hat. This is the easiest option, and considering that Red Hat sponsors lots of mailing lists, no big deal, really. We've got a good infrastructure for getting them created relatively quickly.
2. Move mailing lists to fedoraproject.org. Other than independence from redhat.com, what does this buy us? What is this independence from redhat.com worth? And is Seth even willing/able to maintain this?
3. Have mailing lists anywhere and everywhere; whoever wants to set up a mailing list can set up a mailing list, and we can link them all and note them as "authoritative project list" or not as we see fit.
Let's get some answers, and quick. I've got 3 requests for mailing lists @redhat.com waiting on the burner.
--g
_____________________ ____________________________________________ Greg DeKoenigsberg ] [ the future masters of technology will have Community Relations ] [ to be lighthearted and intelligent. the Red Hat ] [ machine easily masters the grim and the ] [ dumb. --mcluhan
On Fri, 2 Dec 2005 13:40:46 -0500 (EST), Greg DeKoenigsberg wrote
OK, so we need to come to a decision on how Fedora mailing lists will work as we grow, because we're starting to get requests from various folks to start them up.
We've got the following options to consider:
- Continuing to host mailing lists at Red Hat. This is the easiest
option, and considering that Red Hat sponsors lots of mailing lists, no big deal, really. We've got a good infrastructure for getting them created relatively quickly.
- Move mailing lists to fedoraproject.org. Other than independence from
redhat.com, what does this buy us? What is this independence from redhat.com worth? And is Seth even willing/able to maintain this?
- Have mailing lists anywhere and everywhere; whoever wants to set up a
mailing list can set up a mailing list, and we can link them all and note them as "authoritative project list" or not as we see fit.
Let's get some answers, and quick. I've got 3 requests for mailing lists @redhat.com waiting on the burner.
--g
Greg DeKoenigsberg ] [ the future masters of technology will have Community Relations ] [ to be lighthearted and intelligent. the Red Hat ] [ machine easily masters the grim and the ] [ dumb. --mcluhan
I vote for #2. :)
-- Thomas Chung FedoraNEWS.ORG (http://fedoranews.org) "..where you can free your knowledge for your free community!"
I vote for #1. The infatructure is already in place, the overhead is taken care of. I'm a fan of keeping it simple, and not fixing things that aren't broken :) Changing the mailing list infastructure just for nominal reasons seems pointless and will only serve to create more work for others :) Regards, Steve
On 12/2/05, Thomas Chung tchung@fedoranews.org wrote:
On Fri, 2 Dec 2005 13:40:46 -0500 (EST), Greg DeKoenigsberg wrote
OK, so we need to come to a decision on how Fedora mailing lists will
work
as we grow, because we're starting to get requests from various folks to start them up.
We've got the following options to consider:
- Continuing to host mailing lists at Red Hat. This is the easiest
option, and considering that Red Hat sponsors lots of mailing lists, no big deal, really. We've got a good infrastructure for getting them created relatively quickly.
- Move mailing lists to fedoraproject.org. Other than independence
from
redhat.com, what does this buy us? What is this independence from redhat.com worth? And is Seth even willing/able to maintain this?
- Have mailing lists anywhere and everywhere; whoever wants to set up a
mailing list can set up a mailing list, and we can link them all and
note
them as "authoritative project list" or not as we see fit.
Let's get some answers, and quick. I've got 3 requests for mailing
lists
@redhat.com waiting on the burner.
--g
Greg DeKoenigsberg ] [ the future masters of technology will have Community Relations ] [ to be lighthearted and intelligent. the Red Hat ] [ machine easily masters the grim and the ] [ dumb. --mcluhan
I vote for #2. :)
-- Thomas Chung FedoraNEWS.ORG (http://fedoranews.org) "..where you can free your knowledge for your free community!"
-- Fedora-marketing-list mailing list Fedora-marketing-list@redhat.com https://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/fedora-marketing-list
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Thomas Chung wrote:
On Fri, 2 Dec 2005 13:40:46 -0500 (EST), Greg DeKoenigsberg wrote
OK, so we need to come to a decision on how Fedora mailing lists will work as we grow, because we're starting to get requests from various folks to start them up.
We've got the following options to consider:
- Continuing to host mailing lists at Red Hat. This is the easiest
option, and considering that Red Hat sponsors lots of mailing lists, no big deal, really. We've got a good infrastructure for getting them created relatively quickly.
- Move mailing lists to fedoraproject.org. Other than independence from
redhat.com, what does this buy us? What is this independence from redhat.com worth? And is Seth even willing/able to maintain this?
- Have mailing lists anywhere and everywhere; whoever wants to set up a
mailing list can set up a mailing list, and we can link them all and note them as "authoritative project list" or not as we see fit.
Let's get some answers, and quick. I've got 3 requests for mailing lists @redhat.com waiting on the burner.
i vote for 2.
- -- +================================================+ RODRIGO PADULA DE OLIVEIRA (o- BACHAREL EM SISTEMAS DE INFORMAÇÃO //\ FACULDADE METODISTA GRANBERY - FMG V_/_ PostgreSQL - PHP - Java - Fedora +================================================+ Embaixador do Fedora no Brasil Membro Fundador do Gunix Linux http://www.gunix.com.br
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1
Thomas Chung wrote:
On Fri, 2 Dec 2005 13:40:46 -0500 (EST), Greg DeKoenigsberg wrote
OK, so we need to come to a decision on how Fedora mailing lists will work as we grow, because we're starting to get requests from various folks to start them up.
We've got the following options to consider:
- Continuing to host mailing lists at Red Hat. This is the easiest
option, and considering that Red Hat sponsors lots of mailing lists, no big deal, really. We've got a good infrastructure for getting them created relatively quickly.
- Move mailing lists to fedoraproject.org. Other than independence from
redhat.com, what does this buy us? What is this independence from redhat.com worth? And is Seth even willing/able to maintain this?
- Have mailing lists anywhere and everywhere; whoever wants to set up a
mailing list can set up a mailing list, and we can link them all and note them as "authoritative project list" or not as we see fit.
Let's get some answers, and quick. I've got 3 requests for mailing lists @redhat.com waiting on the burner.
also my vote for 2
On Sat, 2005-12-03 at 08:07 +0100, Gerold Kassube wrote:
also my vote for 2
Ok guys, this isn't a vote. This is a probe as to why you would want to use one option over another. A blank vote doesn't help. A well thought out reason would help a lot.
Why would you want 2, what makes it the better choice over 1 or 3?
Jesse Keating wrote:
On Sat, 2005-12-03 at 08:07 +0100, Gerold Kassube wrote:
also my vote for 2
Ok guys, this isn't a vote. This is a probe as to why you would want to use one option over another. A blank vote doesn't help. A well thought out reason would help a lot.
Why would you want 2, what makes it the better choice over 1 or 3?
Perception is a huge factor in favor of it. Even when we let non @redhat.com community people to administrate mailing lists, this is not very visible. Adequate infrastructure and people behind fedoraproject.org is important to ensure it. The cons are changing what already works for no "real" advantage.
regards Rahul
On Sat, 2005-12-03 at 14:39 +0530, Rahul Sundaram wrote:
Perception is a huge factor in favor of it. Even when we let non @redhat.com community people to administrate mailing lists, this is not very visible. Adequate infrastructure and people behind fedoraproject.org is important to ensure it. The cons are changing what already works for no "real" advantage.
Is the perception that it ends in a redhat.com address? What if it were lists.fedoraproject.org or something similar, but still ran on RH's hardware? Just playing Devil's Advocate (:
Jesse Keating wrote:
On Sat, 2005-12-03 at 14:39 +0530, Rahul Sundaram wrote:
Perception is a huge factor in favor of it. Even when we let non @redhat.com community people to administrate mailing lists, this is not very visible. Adequate infrastructure and people behind fedoraproject.org is important to ensure it. The cons are changing what already works for no "real" advantage.
Is the perception that it ends in a redhat.com address? What if it were lists.fedoraproject.org or something similar, but still ran on RH's hardware? Just playing Devil's Advocate (:
In my eyes, it doesn't matter if it is running on Duke, Red Hat, or even Microsoft hardware, as long as it remains operational. We should be able to make it work on Red Hat hardware without needing to use a sub-domain. My concern isn't with who's maintaining it, but having the @fedoraproject.org name improves perception quite a bit. I also wouldn't complain if we did use a sub-domain, if that would help. Having the distinguishing name has advantages that span from helping dissolve the image of Fedora as a patsy for Red Hat to just providing a little extra pride for the community. If we do #2 on #1 hardware, I think that would be a great solution. :-)
Hi
Is the perception that it ends in a redhat.com address? What if it were lists.fedoraproject.org or something similar, but still ran on RH's hardware? Just playing Devil's Advocate (:
Red Hat HW or bandwidth is just fine because it has low visibility compared to a domain name unless it highly advertised. How many know the GNOME infrastructure that is provided by Red Hat for example? . In other words Red Hat can continue to donate whatever resources it wants to while changing the perception drastically by moving the lists to fedoraproject.org. Community members external to Red Hat already administrate several fedora lists and creating new lists is a quick process so it doesnt really change anything but perception and is a probably a lot of work involved in moving lists around while also having to avoid the potential pitfall of not having enough administrators behind it.
So what is the actual work involved if we decide to move the lists? Who are the people with administrator access in fedoraproject.org? Also who is going to own it in the future? The foundation would the logical choice.
regards Rahul
I don't care as long as "authoritative" lists are archived in a centralized place. Can I troll web-archives on multiple servers..yes I can. Do I want to do that? Not if I can avoid it. While I might not be particularly good at it, I do attempt to search relevant list discussions before I jump into a new round of discussion on that issue. I'd hate to see lists go up on unreliable servers without some sort of centralized archiving... so in a year, even if that subproject group imploded I can still troll the archives for discussion references of merit.
-jef
On Fri, Dec 02, 2005 at 01:40:46PM -0500, Greg DeKoenigsberg wrote:
OK, so we need to come to a decision on how Fedora mailing lists will work as we grow, because we're starting to get requests from various folks to start them up.
Just to clarify, do you see an actual problem (current or impending) with the way things are currently done? Or you're just asking if anyone has an opinion on the matter?
- Have mailing lists anywhere and everywhere; whoever wants to set up a
mailing list can set up a mailing list, and we can link them all and note them as "authoritative project list" or not as we see fit.
I don't have strong feelings between options 1 and 2, aside from not making changes without a compelling reason... but I think option 3 is undesirable. If it's an "official" Fedora project mailing list, that should be immediately obvious by the fact of where it's hosted.
- Paul
On Fri, 2005-12-02 at 13:40 -0500, Greg DeKoenigsberg wrote:
- Continuing to host mailing lists at Red Hat. This is the easiest
option, and considering that Red Hat sponsors lots of mailing lists, no big deal, really. We've got a good infrastructure for getting them created relatively quickly.
This seems like the best to me. As you say there is lots of infrastructure, and past has proved that RH can allow non@redhat people administrate the lists. It also ensures the same sort of look/feel of all the lists involved.
- Move mailing lists to fedoraproject.org. Other than independence from
redhat.com, what does this buy us? What is this independence from redhat.com worth? And is Seth even willing/able to maintain this?
Seems this would just be a perception thing. There may be cases where software upgrades might happen quicker, but I don't really know if that is a real issue or not. Also it puts a lot of expectation on Seth. I'd want to wait until there is more resources surrounding fedoraproject.org before wholesale cutover. But thats just my opinion.
- Have mailing lists anywhere and everywhere; whoever wants to set up a
mailing list can set up a mailing list, and we can link them all and note them as "authoritative project list" or not as we see fit.
I don't like this idea at all. Decentralized, difficult to aggregate, user non-intuitive, etc...
On Fri, 2005-12-02 at 11:09 -0800, Jesse Keating wrote:
On Fri, 2005-12-02 at 13:40 -0500, Greg DeKoenigsberg wrote:
- Continuing to host mailing lists at Red Hat. This is the easiest
option, and considering that Red Hat sponsors lots of mailing lists, no big deal, really. We've got a good infrastructure for getting them created relatively quickly.
This seems like the best to me. As you say there is lots of infrastructure, and past has proved that RH can allow non@redhat people administrate the lists. It also ensures the same sort of look/feel of all the lists involved.
I agree. Also, Red Hat Linux spinoffs that are now Fedora spinoffs like K12ltsp have lists hosted at Red Hat. It's quite convenient to have account administration and mailing list archives in the same place for these derivatives.
-Toshio
- Move mailing lists to fedoraproject.org. Other than independence from
redhat.com, what does this buy us? What is this independence from redhat.com worth? And is Seth even willing/able to maintain this?
Seems this would just be a perception thing.
I agree with this statement. Provided that we aren't saddling fp.o with a burden it can't handle, and provided the resources are available to move and maintain this lists, I would vote for option 2.
What is independence from RH worth? From the point of view of trying to "sell" Fedora to the F/OSS community, millions. As a writer of Linux news, I would label this a "significant event" in the development of the Fedora community.
Matt Frye
Greg DeKoenigsberg wrote:
OK, so we need to come to a decision on how Fedora mailing lists will work as we grow, because we're starting to get requests from various folks to start them up.
We've got the following options to consider:
- Continuing to host mailing lists at Red Hat. This is the easiest
option, and considering that Red Hat sponsors lots of mailing lists, no big deal, really. We've got a good infrastructure for getting them created relatively quickly.
- Move mailing lists to fedoraproject.org. Other than independence from
redhat.com, what does this buy us? What is this independence from redhat.com worth? And is Seth even willing/able to maintain this?
- Have mailing lists anywhere and everywhere; whoever wants to set up a
mailing list can set up a mailing list, and we can link them all and note them as "authoritative project list" or not as we see fit.
Let's get some answers, and quick. I've got 3 requests for mailing lists @redhat.com waiting on the burner.
--g
Greg DeKoenigsberg ] [ the future masters of technology will have Community Relations ] [ to be lighthearted and intelligent. the Red Hat ] [ machine easily masters the grim and the ] [ dumb. --mcluhan
-- Fedora-marketing-list mailing list Fedora-marketing-list@redhat.com https://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/fedora-marketing-list
My first instinct is to vote for #2. I like the long-term goal of the Fedora Project becoming more autonomous and independent -- or at least giving that appearance. I know it would take a great deal of effort to move everything over, and I'm not sure we have the resources to do it at this time. Perhaps when there is more muscle behind fedoraproject.org, we can pull this off. I'm willing to go with #1 in the meantime. Something else that we might hear is that a difficult move is best to do now and get it over with, and I would normally agree, but I'm not convinced that we are really in the best position to pull it off right now. How about we go with #1 right now and, if the demand is present, we review this in 6 months?
On Fri, 2005-12-02 at 20:57 -0600, Patrick Barnes wrote:
My first instinct is to vote for #2. I like the long-term goal of the Fedora Project becoming more autonomous and independent -- or at least giving that appearance. I know it would take a great deal of effort to move everything over, and I'm not sure we have the resources to do it at this time. Perhaps when there is more muscle behind fedoraproject.org, we can pull this off. I'm willing to go with #1 in the meantime. Something else that we might hear is that a difficult move is best to do now and get it over with, and I would normally agree, but I'm not convinced that we are really in the best position to pull it off right now. How about we go with #1 right now and, if the demand is present, we review this in 6 months?
My question on this is why wouldn't RH be allowed to donate this service? Why is it viewed to be 'closed' or at least not 'open' if RH helps out? RH is some how excluded from contributing because it is a commercial corporation?
Just curious.
On Sat, 2005-12-03 at 01:08 -0800, Jesse Keating wrote:
On Fri, 2005-12-02 at 20:57 -0600, Patrick Barnes wrote:
My first instinct is to vote for #2. I like the long-term goal of the Fedora Project becoming more autonomous and independent -- or at least giving that appearance. I know it would take a great deal of effort to move everything over, and I'm not sure we have the resources to do it at this time. Perhaps when there is more muscle behind fedoraproject.org, we can pull this off. I'm willing to go with #1 in the meantime. Something else that we might hear is that a difficult move is best to do now and get it over with, and I would normally agree, but I'm not convinced that we are really in the best position to pull it off right now. How about we go with #1 right now and, if the demand is present, we review this in 6 months?
My question on this is why wouldn't RH be allowed to donate this service? Why is it viewed to be 'closed' or at least not 'open' if RH helps out? RH is some how excluded from contributing because it is a commercial corporation?
I don't think it matters who is providing the back-end services. Actually, I appreciate the quality of the Red Hat service in this area.
Remaining @ redhat.com for formal Fedora Web services is like having a Geocities website. OK, that's a little harsh. It just makes it appear that Fedora is forever a stepchild of Red Hat; has to live in the same house, but different last name.
- Karsten
On Mon, 2005-12-05 at 00:15 -0800, Karsten Wade wrote:
Remaining @ redhat.com for formal Fedora Web services is like having a Geocities website. OK, that's a little harsh. It just makes it appear that Fedora is forever a stepchild of Red Hat; has to live in the same house, but different last name.
hah, I can appreciate that. So Greg, can we amend the options to have one more? RH infrastructure using a fedoraproject.org domain or subdomain?
-- jes
On Fri, 2005-12-02 at 13:40 -0500, Greg DeKoenigsberg wrote:
OK, so we need to come to a decision on how Fedora mailing lists will work as we grow, because we're starting to get requests from various folks to start them up.
We've got the following options to consider:
- Continuing to host mailing lists at Red Hat. This is the easiest
option, and considering that Red Hat sponsors lots of mailing lists, no big deal, really. We've got a good infrastructure for getting them created relatively quickly.
- Move mailing lists to fedoraproject.org. Other than independence from
redhat.com, what does this buy us? What is this independence from redhat.com worth? And is Seth even willing/able to maintain this?
I'd continue using @redhat.com, and slowly change to "official" local domains as the needs arise.
Eg.: We already have fedora-users-br at redhat.com list for Brazilian users. Hopefully, we'll soon have a registered Fedora NGO to facilitate local operations. When this is done, we could possibly migrate lists to a @projetofedora.org.br (Fedora Project in Brazilian Portuguese) domain.
Acting locally under internationally agreed guidelines...
Opinions?
Best, -- David Barzilay
Am Freitag, den 02.12.2005, 13:40 -0500 schrieb Greg DeKoenigsberg:
We've got the following options to consider:
- Continuing to host mailing lists at Red Hat. This is the easiest
option, and considering that Red Hat sponsors lots of mailing lists, no big deal, really. We've got a good infrastructure for getting them created relatively quickly.
- Move mailing lists to fedoraproject.org. Other than independence from
redhat.com, what does this buy us? What is this independence from redhat.com worth? And is Seth even willing/able to maintain this?
- Have mailing lists anywhere and everywhere; whoever wants to set up a
mailing list can set up a mailing list, and we can link them all and note them as "authoritative project list" or not as we see fit.
I'd vote for proposal 1 but can also live with solution 2 -- the fedoraproject.org domain name in the list name is nice, but not worth moving everything (I'm probably not the only one that has to adjust a lot of procmails rules after such a move -- yes, thats easy, but still annoying). I don't like 3.
But while we are talking about maillinglists I'd like two propose two other things:
- Remove the stupid "Repy-To" munging that currently happens on a lot of lists. It seems to confuse a lot of people. See also: http://www.unicom.com/pw/reply-to-harmful.html
- I think we should add "devel" to the name of these lists: fedora-desktop-list fedora-tools-list fedora-config-list
No, this is not important, but it avoids confusion for the users. With "devel" in the name it's obvious that this is for devel discussions. Yes, there will still be people that don't get it, but that will always happen.
These lists are quite in any case -- do we still need them?
Just my 2 cent.
Hi
- I think we should add "devel" to the name of these lists:
fedora-desktop-list fedora-tools-list fedora-config-list
No, this is not important, but it avoids confusion for the users. With "devel" in the name it's obvious that this is for devel discussions. Yes, there will still be people that don't get it, but that will always happen.
These lists are quite in any case -- do we still need them?
We definitely need to the desktop list. We should be increasing the visibility with many of the desktop related changes that goes into every release. What could be possibly done with it is the following
* Community contests and perhaps bounties on desktop themes and wallpapers with the desktop team * Bring more visibility with theming, menus and other changes related to the desktop that happens in every release. * Usability - How about inviting users to post screencasts recording from experiences from non technical users? . See http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/ScreenCasting
Other ideas?
regards Rahul
marketing@lists.fedoraproject.org
-
David Barzilay -
Gerold -
Greg DeKoenigsberg -
Jef Spaleta -
Jesse Keating -
Karsten Wade -
Matt Frye -
Patrick W. Barnes -
Paul Stauffer -
Rahul Sundaram -
Rodrigo Padula de Oliveira -
Stephen Krenzel -
Thomas Chung -
Thorsten Leemhuis -
Toshio Kuratomi