I don't know if this should be in this mailing list but if not please point me to where it should be. Now everyone knows that the more people help out whether thats packaging or coding or even in the marketing section the better Fedora will be.
I just was browsing around thinking about this and I came across a debian How you can help page. Reading through it to see how the other camp deal with growing the contributors to the overall OS I noticed they have several mailing lists. Now I know I know we have mailing lists as well. However they have a mailing list called debian-mentors now for me I was surprised.
I personally have spent numerous days learning how to build rpm's as well as trying to follow the fedora package naming and layout conventions and I thought wouldn't that be a great idea. If someone is interested in learning provided they don't waste peoples time by actually WANTING to contribute maybe a mentors list go get them from a newbie/basic contributor to an active member of the support/devel crew.
If and I specify if people are willing to mentor couldn't we grow the contributors in that way. I say marketing because in the process of growing the contributors we could grow the marketing by saying we need you to help make this OS better and here's how you can learn to help.
I saw it happen with the bugs people (bad way to describe it) in Fedora marketing that they need bugs people, wouldn't it be more logical in promoting a common location and advertising the fact of who's helping out. It might be a great way of getting more people involved.
I don't know if its feasible I'm just throwing ideas out there.
On Thu, 2005-07-28 at 14:36 +0800, Marc Wiriadisastra wrote:
I personally have spent numerous days learning how to build rpm's as well as trying to follow the fedora package naming and layout conventions and I thought wouldn't that be a great idea. If someone is interested in learning provided they don't waste peoples time by actually WANTING to contribute maybe a mentors list go get them from a newbie/basic contributor to an active member of the support/devel crew.
This is an interesting idea.
One of the problems facing knowledgeable contributors in mentoring new contributors is separating the wheat from the chaff on current mailing lists. When you do get a chance to mentor, the quality post is easily lost in the flying chaff around it.
A list that was specifically for mentoring would have all manner of posts to it, technical, cultural, packaging, why to (v. how to), etc. However, the purpose for mentors to post would be to grow the knowledge and culture. Getting answers in the archives where they can be searched and understood.
In this case, a requirement (or strong suggestion) of joining the mentors list is to thumb through the archives. New contributors who read the archives can be answering questions for other newbies, thus carrying on the chain.
Ideally, a normal list should function in this mentoring fashion. With such populated and work-intensive lists, however, the mentoring gets lost.
Another possibility would be, when a mentor-type is posting something to any list that has good mentoring in it, they are asked to cross-post to fedora-mentoring-list. Thus the list becomes a targeted location for mentoring activity all over the project.
Good idea!
If we work out the details, I'll sponsor starting the list, if you are interested in helping administrate and promote the idea.
- Karsten
On Thu, 2005-07-28 at 10:45 -0700, Karsten Wade wrote:
On Thu, 2005-07-28 at 14:36 +0800, Marc Wiriadisastra wrote:
I personally have spent numerous days learning how to build rpm's as well as trying to follow the fedora package naming and layout conventions and I thought wouldn't that be a great idea. If someone is interested in learning provided they don't waste peoples time by actually WANTING to contribute maybe a mentors list go get them from a newbie/basic contributor to an active member of the support/devel crew.
This is an interesting idea.
One of the problems facing knowledgeable contributors in mentoring new contributors is separating the wheat from the chaff on current mailing lists. When you do get a chance to mentor, the quality post is easily lost in the flying chaff around it.
A list that was specifically for mentoring would have all manner of posts to it, technical, cultural, packaging, why to (v. how to), etc. However, the purpose for mentors to post would be to grow the knowledge and culture. Getting answers in the archives where they can be searched and understood.
I don't want to throw cold water on what I think is a really good idea. But it bears mentioning that it would be *very* easy for this list to become "fedora-list II." That's not a judgment call on the worth of fedora-list, just a note that the f-mentoring-l would become redundant if that happened.
In this case, a requirement (or strong suggestion) of joining the mentors list is to thumb through the archives. New contributors who read the archives can be answering questions for other newbies, thus carrying on the chain.
Why doesn't this become a feature of FedoraForum.org instead? That kind of presentation for this information is much more popular and less intimidating than mailing lists, plus it means that people who are not happy to receive large amounts of email daily are more likely to participate, even if it is sporadically.
Ideally, a normal list should function in this mentoring fashion. With such populated and work-intensive lists, however, the mentoring gets lost.
Exactly.
Another possibility would be, when a mentor-type is posting something to any list that has good mentoring in it, they are asked to cross-post to fedora-mentoring-list. Thus the list becomes a targeted location for mentoring activity all over the project.
I wonder if there's a way of enabling this from the forum side... not sure since I don't run one. Might be worth bringing it up with the FF.org manager.
Good idea!
If we work out the details, I'll sponsor starting the list, if you are interested in helping administrate and promote the idea.
If you're able to keep an appropriate dress code, it could work well. I'm in favor of figuring out a way to hook the content to FF.org.
Could it be setup in a way where the posts are done to the forums however the information flow is done through the mailing list. I know its sortof backwards but a generic bit of info goes to the mailing list. Where as a specific question can get asked out on the forums.
My only problem that I can see is I'm not sure whether there are sufficient developers that visit the fedoraforum.org website. That being said I think the devel side. I know Rahul is on there a heap which I think its great. Most I would say go wow this is a person who contributes, he is willing to contribute his mindset to a problem or a question as well and generally puts a different view which might not have been considered.
On Fri, 2005-07-29 at 09:10 +0800, Marc Wiriadisastra wrote:
Could it be setup in a way where the posts are done to the forums however the information flow is done through the mailing list. I know its sortof backwards but a generic bit of info goes to the mailing list. Where as a specific question can get asked out on the forums.
My only problem that I can see is I'm not sure whether there are sufficient developers that visit the fedoraforum.org website.
This is a good point.
Users run all over the place for help, and there are more of them, so they reach a critical mass more easily.
Developers are creatures of habit. A Web based forum is less likely to get input than an easy, traditional mailing list. Gated to a news server, of course. :)
We can ask for easy behavior modifications ("If it sounds like good advice, Cc: it to f-mentoring-l"), but we are challenged when we ask for new workflows ("All developers, start helping and mentoring on fedoraforum.org").
Paul, your idea makes _sense_, but I don't know if we are in an area of senses. ;-)
- Karsten
Karsten Wade, RHCE * Sr. Tech Writer * http://people.redhat.com/kwade/ gpg fingerprint: 2680 DBFD D968 3141 0115 5F1B D992 0E06 AD0E 0C41 Red Hat SELinux Guide http://www.redhat.com/docs/manuals/enterprise/RHEL-4-Manual/selinux-guide/
I suppose we should ask the developers their opinions on this. I'm not sure what response they will give because they are busy.
Since I'm not on the devel mailing list could someone ask them since I have nothing to contribute in that way to the devel mailing list.
Marc Wiriadisastra wrote:
Could it be setup in a way where the posts are done to the forums however the information flow is done through the mailing list. I know its sortof backwards but a generic bit of info goes to the mailing list. Where as a specific question can get asked out on the forums.
My only problem that I can see is I'm not sure whether there are sufficient developers that visit the fedoraforum.org website. That being said I think the devel side. I know Rahul is on there a heap which I think its great.
It takes a lot more time than answering questions in the mailing lists. I would prefer a mentors list instead if others are willing to work with new volunteers in such a project
regards Rahul
Does that mean we are going to be proceeding with this?
My only concern is that I would love to be a part of it however I have very little to offer.
It takes a lot more time than answering questions in the mailing lists. I would prefer a mentors list instead if others are willing to work with new volunteers in such a project
regards Rahul
I think possibly maybe we should ask the developers whether they are interested in contributing to it. I don't feel that we should proceed if the most important part of it isn't interested.
Regards
Marc
On Thu, 2005-08-11 at 15:25 +0800, Marc Wiriadisastra wrote:
Does that mean we are going to be proceeding with this?
My only concern is that I would love to be a part of it however I have very little to offer.
We wanted to discuss this at the last marketing meeting, but you were a no show Marc
There's going to be one this coming week - can you make it (I realise 1am on a Friday isn't too good for you in .au - I'm there too -- gives you a little excuse to head to the pub :P)
I think possibly maybe we should ask the developers whether they are interested in contributing to it. I don't feel that we should proceed if the most important part of it isn't interested.
Ask them when there's actually a plan abound
On Fri, 2005-08-12 at 23:33 +1000, Colin Charles wrote:
On Thu, 2005-08-11 at 15:25 +0800, Marc Wiriadisastra wrote:
Does that mean we are going to be proceeding with this? re too -- gives
<snip>
I think possibly maybe we should ask the developers whether they are interested in contributing to it. I don't feel that we should proceed if the most important part of it isn't interested.
Ask them when there's actually a plan abound
I brought up the mentor idea in the Fedora BOF this week, and it had a good reception. Experienced contributors and wanting-to-be contributors either agreed or didn't disagree.
FWIW, that was my straw poll.
- Karsten
Karsten Wade wrote:
On Fri, 2005-08-12 at 23:33 +1000, Colin Charles wrote:
On Thu, 2005-08-11 at 15:25 +0800, Marc Wiriadisastra wrote:
Does that mean we are going to be proceeding with this? re too -- gives
<snip>
I think possibly maybe we should ask the developers whether they are interested in contributing to it. I don't feel that we should proceed if the most important part of it isn't interested.
Ask them when there's actually a plan abound
I brought up the mentor idea in the Fedora BOF this week, and it had a good reception. Experienced contributors and wanting-to-be contributors either agreed or didn't disagree.
FWIW, that was my straw poll.
- Karsten
It would be good to start a fedora-mentors list and see if it works. We dont risk much by that effort
regards Rahul
It would be good to start a fedora-mentors list and see if it works. We dont risk much by that effort.
A mailing list is sort of already an environment of mentorship by committee, isn't it? Are we talking about more of a one-on-one relationship? Perhaps we're better off with a simple mechanism for matching mentors and mentees. Maybe we do something like...
1. Build a simple wiki page with a couple of paragraphs talking about why a mentor program is valuable and useful.
2. A sign-up page for prospective mentors, where they describe what they're good at.
3. A sign-up page for prospective mentees, where they describe what skills they're looking to improve.
4. An announcement to f-*-list.
--g
_____________________ ____________________________________________ Greg DeKoenigsberg ] [ the future masters of technology will have Community Relations ] [ to be lighthearted and intelligent. the Red Hat ] [ machine easily masters the grim and the ] [ dumb. --mcluhan
Greg DeKoenigsberg wrote:
It would be good to start a fedora-mentors list and see if it works. We dont risk much by that effort.
A mailing list is sort of already an environment of mentorship by committee, isn't it? Are we talking about more of a one-on-one relationship? Perhaps we're better off with a simple mechanism for matching mentors and mentees. Maybe we do something like...
- Build a simple wiki page with a couple of paragraphs talking about why
a mentor program is valuable and useful.
Done. http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Mentors
- A sign-up page for prospective mentors, where they describe what
they're good at.
- A sign-up page for prospective mentees, where they describe what skills
they're looking to improve.
We really need to advertise that they is a oppurtunity. I am not sure how the sign up process is supposed to work. Do you mean other wiki pages?
regards Rahul
Greg DeKoenigsberg wrote:
It would be good to start a fedora-mentors list and see if it works. We dont risk much by that effort.
A mailing list is sort of already an environment of mentorship by committee, isn't it? Are we talking about more of a one-on-one relationship? Perhaps we're better off with a simple mechanism for matching mentors and mentees. Maybe we do something like...
- Build a simple wiki page with a couple of paragraphs talking about why
a mentor program is valuable and useful.
Done. http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Mentors
- A sign-up page for prospective mentors, where they describe what
they're good at.
- A sign-up page for prospective mentees, where they describe what skills
they're looking to improve.
We really need to advertise that there is a oppurtunity first. I am not sure how the sign up process is supposed to work. Do you mean other wiki pages?
regards Rahul
On Sat, 2005-08-13 at 20:16 +0530, Rahul Sundaram wrote:
Greg DeKoenigsberg wrote:
It would be good to start a fedora-mentors list and see if it works. We dont risk much by that effort.
A mailing list is sort of already an environment of mentorship by committee, isn't it? Are we talking about more of a one-on-one relationship? Perhaps we're better off with a simple mechanism for matching mentors and mentees. Maybe we do something like...
- Build a simple wiki page with a couple of paragraphs talking about why
a mentor program is valuable and useful.
Done. http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Mentors
- A sign-up page for prospective mentors, where they describe what
they're good at.
- A sign-up page for prospective mentees, where they describe what skills
they're looking to improve.
We really need to advertise that there is a oppurtunity first. I am not sure how the sign up process is supposed to work. Do you mean other wiki pages?
My apologies for not replying sooner I've been traveling for a last few days and I didn't expect any response. Anyways I *should* be at the next meeting 1am my time. Can someone double check the GMT time so I can be sure its the correct time.
Anyways on a side note I like the wiki page except I don't know where to sign up for the mailing list. Also can we add links to other resources. So that someone who IS interested can at least turn around and look for further information so we don't get someone asking what I need to download to start packaging a software. Or how do I submit a package or how do I write up documentation. Or if someone has written documentation yet the formatting is wrong.
I think personally most people are pretty good and that they would be happy to do research but questions specific to certain instances is where they would ask questions. IMO of course.
Regards,
Marc
I have no issues in administrating it and probably need a mentor to do that :)
I would love to not just help promote it but be a part of it. The problem that I found in first starting out is I had questions from reading the manual that I couldn't find answered. To go on a devel mailing list would just cause issues in the fact that the people on there wouldn't want someone new to ask stupid questions that probably could be answered else where.
Hence when I saw that mentoring I thought what a great way for a developer who sees for example something that might help their fellow developers or great bit of info that he/she has written they can post on the mentoring list as well so that the growth in knowledge and contribution to the Fedora project can increase.
You have my full support if implemented and also my contribution.
marketing@lists.fedoraproject.org
-
Colin Charles -
Greg DeKoenigsberg -
Karsten Wade -
Marc Wiriadisastra -
Paul W. Frields -
Rahul Sundaram