So here's a snippet from this thread on FedoraForum.org, from jspaar:
"But trying to spin this like it was an open process in which the community was highly involved? As Greg DeK. spelled out in the marketing list discussion, he has paid a professional to do it according to Red Hat's specs, and he has signed off on the result (allowing for minor tweaks) before 99% of the "community" has even become aware that it existed."
(http://forums.fedoraforum.org/showpost.php?p=370607&postcount=69)
This is a fair point -- to an extent.
We wanted enough input to validate the direction the logo should take. The mechanism we used to gather that input was the Fedora marketing list. Why? Because this is *precisely* why the Fedora marketing group exists. And yes, that *necessarily* excludes 99% of the Fedora community -- but it *includes* the 1% who care enough about the direction of Fedora's brand to get *directly* involved.
And *those* people were *highly* involved in the process around this decision. These people were submitting logo ideas -- some good, some not-so-good, some not-at-all-good -- for *months* before we commissioned this version -- and that *very* active debate *directly* informed Matt's choices, as he made clear in his top-notch presentation.
But, y'know, it's not code. It's a logo. In code, it's frequently the case that "one way is better." In design, that's *almost never* the case. Therefore, our process was to:
1. Gather input; 2. Designate someone to create the logo; 3. Validate the logo.
It was all done completely transparently, too.
And because there are roughly as many people who like the logo as who hate the logo, and because that is generally true with *any* design task (as most designers will tell you), and because people generally respect the thought process that led to the logo, the logo is probably a winner. Matt Munoz, the talented designer who came up with it, has the final say at this point -- because as jspaar also points out, "benevolent dictatorship is necessary or nothing gets decided." In this case, that guy is Matt.
That's basically my last word on the matter. Feel free to repost links to this message all over teh intraweb.
--g
_____________________ ____________________________________________ Greg DeKoenigsberg ] [ the future masters of technology will have Community Relations ] [ to be lighthearted and intelligent. the Red Hat ] [ machine easily masters the grim and the ] [ dumb. --mcluhan
On Wed, 2005-09-21 at 14:22 -0400, Greg DeKoenigsberg wrote:
We wanted enough input to validate the direction the logo should take. The mechanism we used to gather that input was the Fedora marketing list. Why? Because this is *precisely* why the Fedora marketing group exists. And yes, that *necessarily* excludes 99% of the Fedora community -- but it *includes* the 1% who care enough about the direction of Fedora's brand to get *directly* involved.
It's a really sad state of affairs we are in.
Besides the marketing project, there is Extras and documentation that have *very* high levels of community involvement. In fact, the community members out number the @redhat.com people, hands down.
These forum posts insult every one of those community people, including Matt. As with anything in open source, they better get their facts straight before they start foaming at the mouth, or they deserve the bit bucket they get put in.
- Karsten
On Wed, 21 Sep 2005, Karsten Wade wrote:
On Wed, 2005-09-21 at 14:22 -0400, Greg DeKoenigsberg wrote:
We wanted enough input to validate the direction the logo should take. The mechanism we used to gather that input was the Fedora marketing list. Why? Because this is *precisely* why the Fedora marketing group exists. And yes, that *necessarily* excludes 99% of the Fedora community -- but it *includes* the 1% who care enough about the direction of Fedora's brand to get *directly* involved.
It's a really sad state of affairs we are in.
Besides the marketing project, there is Extras and documentation that have *very* high levels of community involvement. In fact, the community members out number the @redhat.com people, hands down.
These forum posts insult every one of those community people, including Matt. As with anything in open source, they better get their facts straight before they start foaming at the mouth, or they deserve the bit bucket they get put in.
It's ok. This kind of heat is a lot better than being ignored. If it brings more well-intentioned people to the project, I think that's a fine thing. And if it causes unreasonable people to decide that we're a bunch of fascists and they'll take their allegiances elsewhere -- well, I have no problem with that, either.
And most of all, I remember not to take it personal. I'm doing what I'm convinced is right, as are we all. Good enough for me. :)
--g
_____________________ ____________________________________________ Greg DeKoenigsberg ] [ the future masters of technology will have Community Relations ] [ to be lighthearted and intelligent. the Red Hat ] [ machine easily masters the grim and the ] [ dumb. --mcluhan
Greg DeKoenigsberg wrote:
So here's a snippet from this thread on FedoraForum.org, from jspaar:
"But trying to spin this like it was an open process in which the community was highly involved? As Greg DeK. spelled out in the marketing list discussion, he has paid a professional to do it according to Red Hat's specs, and he has signed off on the result (allowing for minor tweaks) before 99% of the "community" has even become aware that it existed."
(http://forums.fedoraforum.org/showpost.php?p=370607&postcount=69)
I have responded there directly. Unless more people get involved in the effort we cannot advertise our current efforts better. Thats the catch 22 situation. Community members who are already involved are doing a great job. Thank you
regards Rahul
On 9/21/05, Greg DeKoenigsberg gdk@redhat.com wrote:
We wanted enough input to validate the direction the logo should take. The mechanism we used to gather that input was the Fedora marketing list. Why? Because this is *precisely* why the Fedora marketing group exists. And yes, that *necessarily* excludes 99% of the Fedora community -- but it *includes* the 1% who care enough about the direction of Fedora's brand to get *directly* involved.
+1
And not only that, but this particular issue is not up for broad debate, or a referendum, since RH marketing and legal have to make the final call. So inviting a mass of folks to contribute, only to find out that they didn't get their way, or that their input could be considered would have made them even madder.
Besides, we don't need the other 99% of the community telling us it should be a blue hat. ;-)
--jeremy
+1
I agree if people had been following the issues well they we would know the hat issue has been gone over a few times and that its been decided that its not to be used.
Marc On Thu, 2005-09-22 at 15:22 -0400, Jeremy Hogan wrote:
On 9/21/05, Greg DeKoenigsberg gdk@redhat.com wrote:
We wanted enough input to validate the direction the logo should take. The mechanism we used to gather that input was the Fedora marketing list. Why? Because this is *precisely* why the Fedora marketing group exists. And yes, that *necessarily* excludes 99% of the Fedora community -- but it *includes* the 1% who care enough about the direction of Fedora's brand to get *directly* involved.+1
And not only that, but this particular issue is not up for broad debate, or a referendum, since RH marketing and legal have to make the final call. So inviting a mass of folks to contribute, only to find out that they didn't get their way, or that their input could be considered would have made them even madder.
Besides, we don't need the other 99% of the community telling us it should be a blue hat. ;-)
--jeremy
-- Fedora-marketing-list mailing list Fedora-marketing-list@redhat.com https://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/fedora-marketing-list
On 9/22/05, Jeremy Hogan jeremy.hogan@gmail.com wrote:
Besides, we don't need the other 99% of the community telling us it should be a blue hat. ;-)
For the record... i wanted a goat. Maybe I can rally the goat lovers under a single banner and march onto the field of battle branishing our superior weapons of rhetorical might, dispatching blue hat clan to the four winds. Though I think instead, I'll move this debate forward.... so... what are the chances we can see cdrom/dvd labels using whatever logo is finalized included on the isos? Ideally I'd LOVE to see labels that left room for co-branding. So any organization who was producing install media from the iso images could use the provided labels and slap their orgnization logo/name in a specified area on the official cd labels.
-jef"king of the meatheads!"spaleta
Thanks, Jef!
That's an advance in this discussion list. Let's move on!
BTW, I'm in the process of establishing a Brazilian Fedora users (not developers nor translators) website to better promote FC to this market.
Anyone interested in giving me a hand with establishing a mailing list, including links, and other contents?
It has been a long time since I first tried to set up this website, and hopefully we'll make it happen soon.
Do the Marketing gurus here intend to set a procedure for further local websites?
Thanks, -- David Barzilay Brazilian Portuguese Technical Translator Red Hat Asia-Pacific
On Thu, 2005-09-22 at 22:01 -0400, Jeff Spaleta wrote:
On 9/22/05, Jeremy Hogan jeremy.hogan@gmail.com wrote:
Besides, we don't need the other 99% of the community telling us it should be a blue hat. ;-)
For the record... i wanted a goat. Maybe I can rally the goat lovers under a single banner and march onto the field of battle branishing our superior weapons of rhetorical might, dispatching blue hat clan to the four winds. Though I think instead, I'll move this debate forward.... so... what are the chances we can see cdrom/dvd labels using whatever logo is finalized included on the isos? Ideally I'd LOVE to see labels that left room for co-branding. So any organization who was producing install media from the iso images could use the provided labels and slap their orgnization logo/name in a specified area on the official cd labels.
-jef"king of the meatheads!"spaleta
-- Fedora-marketing-list mailing list Fedora-marketing-list@redhat.com https://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/fedora-marketing-list
Jeff Spaleta wrote:
Though I think instead, I'll move this debate forward.... so... what are the chances we can see cdrom/dvd labels using whatever logo is finalized included on the isos? Ideally I'd LOVE to see labels that left room for co-branding. So any organization who was producing install media from the iso images could use the provided labels and slap their orgnization logo/name in a specified area on the official cd labels.
This is an easy one: provide the infrastructure and they will come. The infrastructure would be a web page (gallery) where people can submit images. The only downside to this is people will submit labels containing whatever they like, the official logo or something else.
On 9/23/05, Nicu Buculei nicu_fedora@nicubunu.ro wrote:
This is an easy one: provide the infrastructure and they will come. The infrastructure would be a web page (gallery) where people can submit images. The only downside to this is people will submit labels containing whatever they like, the official logo or something else.
Uhm... i was asking if the SAME approach that was taken for the logo could be used to create an official set to be provided on the release isos. Hopefully the fc5 release isos, but that depends on when the official logo is finalized. I was not asking for a free-for-all.
-jef
I like the idea of co-branding. A lot.
In fact, I think that the entire distro should be a lot more co-brandable than it is. At the very least, we should be able to allow LUGs to burn their own versions of Fedora that have their own (homepage in Firefox) and (spiffy default background image) or whatever.
There are bigger fish to fry, but I think this is a spiffy idea for promotion. Always have. Now... what am I gonna do about it? I dunno.
But it sure is a good idear. Yes, indeedy.
--h
_____________________ ____________________________________________ Greg DeKoenigsberg ] [ the future masters of technology will have Community Relations ] [ to be lighthearted and intelligent. the Red Hat ] [ machine easily masters the grim and the ] [ dumb. --mcluhan
On Thu, 22 Sep 2005, Jeff Spaleta wrote:
On 9/22/05, Jeremy Hogan jeremy.hogan@gmail.com wrote:
Besides, we don't need the other 99% of the community telling us it should be a blue hat. ;-)
For the record... i wanted a goat. Maybe I can rally the goat lovers under a single banner and march onto the field of battle branishing our superior weapons of rhetorical might, dispatching blue hat clan to the four winds. Though I think instead, I'll move this debate forward.... so... what are the chances we can see cdrom/dvd labels using whatever logo is finalized included on the isos? Ideally I'd LOVE to see labels that left room for co-branding. So any organization who was producing install media from the iso images could use the provided labels and slap their orgnization logo/name in a specified area on the official cd labels.
-jef"king of the meatheads!"spaleta
-- Fedora-marketing-list mailing list Fedora-marketing-list@redhat.com https://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/fedora-marketing-list
On 9/23/05, Greg DeKoenigsberg gdk@redhat.com wrote:
I like the idea of co-branding. A lot.
In fact, I think that the entire distro should be a lot more co-brandable than it is. At the very least, we should be able to allow LUGs to burn their own versions of Fedora that have their own (homepage in Firefox) and (spiffy default background image) or whatever.
Uhm... thats a bigger deal than what I talking about... i much bigger deal... since you are talking about respinning and changing the checksums of the isos. I'm going to back away from that for the moment..though I'll gladly poke you in the eye about it once the foundation is up and running.
I'm just looking for "official" cd-label art that can come on the "official" core isos every release, that people can use when burning media so its instantly recognizable as "fedora core" media no matter which organization actually burned the disks AND it has a place for the organization to add their name/logo so they can get credit/blame for providing the install media. Its a simple recipe in terms of information that should be on the labels, but the layout and design are a matter of taste... hence why I think this needs to go through a designer process like the logo.
The information that needs to be on the labels provided on the isos is easy: 1: Fedora watermark/trademark 2: Release name/number (release 5 aka yermomma) 3: Disk name/number (i386 Disk 1) or (SRPM Disk 2) 4: "Provided by:" 5: space for organization watermark/trademark to go (PETA) 6: optionally space for burn-on date or other batch/serial number to go. (#93901-aa3)
Basically I'm talking about provided one png/jpg per disk that is part of an official iso release, with a short file explaining that its okay to modify the image to add your organizations name/logo in the provided space.. but please don't change the layout or design of the images in any other way.
-jef
Jeff Spaleta wrote:
The information that needs to be on the labels provided on the isos is easy: 1: Fedora watermark/trademark 2: Release name/number (release 5 aka yermomma) 3: Disk name/number (i386 Disk 1) or (SRPM Disk 2) 4: "Provided by:" 5: space for organization watermark/trademark to go (PETA) 6: optionally space for burn-on date or other batch/serial number to go. (#93901-aa3)
Basically a template like this: http://fedora.nicubunu.ro/cdlabel.svg
We already have that art, actually, because it's required to burn our promotional copies. Maybe I'll just make it available with terms.
/me thinks on it.
--g
_____________________ ____________________________________________ Greg DeKoenigsberg ] [ the future masters of technology will have Community Relations ] [ to be lighthearted and intelligent. the Red Hat ] [ machine easily masters the grim and the ] [ dumb. --mcluhan
On Fri, 23 Sep 2005, Jeff Spaleta wrote:
On 9/23/05, Greg DeKoenigsberg gdk@redhat.com wrote:
I like the idea of co-branding. A lot.
In fact, I think that the entire distro should be a lot more co-brandable than it is. At the very least, we should be able to allow LUGs to burn their own versions of Fedora that have their own (homepage in Firefox) and (spiffy default background image) or whatever.
Uhm... thats a bigger deal than what I talking about... i much bigger deal... since you are talking about respinning and changing the checksums of the isos. I'm going to back away from that for the moment..though I'll gladly poke you in the eye about it once the foundation is up and running.
I'm just looking for "official" cd-label art that can come on the "official" core isos every release, that people can use when burning media so its instantly recognizable as "fedora core" media no matter which organization actually burned the disks AND it has a place for the organization to add their name/logo so they can get credit/blame for providing the install media. Its a simple recipe in terms of information that should be on the labels, but the layout and design are a matter of taste... hence why I think this needs to go through a designer process like the logo.
The information that needs to be on the labels provided on the isos is easy: 1: Fedora watermark/trademark 2: Release name/number (release 5 aka yermomma) 3: Disk name/number (i386 Disk 1) or (SRPM Disk 2) 4: "Provided by:" 5: space for organization watermark/trademark to go (PETA) 6: optionally space for burn-on date or other batch/serial number to go. (#93901-aa3)
Basically I'm talking about provided one png/jpg per disk that is part of an official iso release, with a short file explaining that its okay to modify the image to add your organizations name/logo in the provided space.. but please don't change the layout or design of the images in any other way.
-jef
-- Fedora-marketing-list mailing list Fedora-marketing-list@redhat.com https://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/fedora-marketing-list
On 9/23/05, Greg DeKoenigsberg gdk@redhat.com wrote:
We already have that art, actually, because it's required to burn our promotional copies. Maybe I'll just make it available with terms.
Yes... whatever is used for promo copies... is fine. Modified to make sure there is room for a "Provided by" brand to give space to the org burning the isos and handing them out is better.
-jef
marketing@lists.fedoraproject.org
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David Barzilay -
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Marc Wiriadisastra -
Nicu Buculei -
Rahul Sundaram