Developers vs Grandmas

[Doug Berry]

> >Jonas wrote:
> historically speaking developers are good at creating new development
> models, cool features, new and innovative stuff and be the cowboys on
> the frontline. One thing that developers has been better and better at
> over the years is human interaction, this is still an area that it is
> good to have outsiders for (the grandma example) To not only drive the
> technical frontline but also the usability.
> >
> They are the ones to write and merge the code, to decide which idéas go >where. So my
> question about statistics is about that, to know if there >are many people not writing
> code that actually have any influence about >what goes where. 
Hi, I'm new here, but a long-time Fedora user. I think Jonas raised a very valid point
about the needs of the end-user (grandma's) and are they being adequately voiced
within the Fedora community.   

I'm an author and book designer, and I could not write a line of code, if it led to a
nightly date with Keira Knightley. (Sorry) 

Not that I am disparaging developers, far from it. They are the backbone of the Linux
world, and FOSS! But it is the end-user that actually uses our software: or not. Input
about their needs and habits is vital.

Let me give an example: Fedora 8-KDE, the GIMP spin-off Krita. Great little version except
that it was almost un-usable for a real artist. Why, because the pop-up menu boxes, you
needed to do the work, obstructed the image area. Sometimes, they got so big you
couldn't even see the right scroll-bar. You were forever moving them around; the only
other choice was to turn them all off. They would not slide behind the image window.

That one flaw, in an otherwise great piece of software, ruined my experience and led me to
yum in the Gimp. I imagined, at the time, the developers simply did not realize how such a
thing might effect the whole thing in totality. Probably because they were not artists and
too busy writing code and not doing art. That particular problem was fixed in newer
versions, but the point is still valid. If that one detail happened to a new Fedora user
who was an artist, we might just have drove her back to Daddy Bill. 

Please do not think that I am disparaging KDE. KDE rocks my world. Take Ktorrent for
example. What can I say about that beauty, except eternal hugs and kisses to whoever
created it.

Anyway. I realize the code-writers cannot be to theoretical; they are limited by what they
can do and not always by what they would like to do. But marketing is not just about
providing products to a fickle user-audience that knows it has choices and wants to be
pampered. It is vital to create cutting-edge software that people can depend on and work
with. And to do that the code-writers need input from their grandma.  

-- w Douglas Berry --
slasherzee(a)fedoraproject.org

[Rex Dieter]

Doug Berry wrote:


>  Let me give an example: Fedora 8-KDE, the GIMP spin-off Krita. Great
>  little version except that it was almost un-usable for a real artist. Why,
>  because the pop-up menu boxes, you needed to do the work, obstructed the
>  image area. Sometimes, they got so big you couldn't even see the right
>  scroll-bar. You were forever moving them around; the only other choice was
>  to turn them all off. They would not slide behind the image window.
>  
>  That one flaw, in an otherwise great piece of software, ruined my
>  experience  
Excellent feedback... has this been voiced to outside of this forum to
someone that could do something about it?  Hint Hint... :)

I'm sure koffice dev's would be happy to hear it.

-- Rex

[David Nalley]

On Wed, Oct 22, 2008 at 11:56 PM, Doug Berry <slasherzee(a)yahoo.com&gt; wrote:
> >>Jonas wrote:
> >historically speaking developers are good at creating new development
> >models, cool features, new and innovative stuff and be the cowboys on
> >the frontline. One thing that developers has been better and better at
> >over the years is human interaction, this is still an area that it is
> >good to have outsiders for (the grandma example) To not only drive the
> >technical frontline but also the usability.
> >>
> >They are the ones to write and merge the code, to decide which idéas go >where. So
> my question about statistics is about that, to know if there >are many people not
> writing code that actually have any influence about >what goes where.
>
>  Hi, I'm new here, but a long-time Fedora user. I think Jonas raised a very valid
> point about the needs of the end-user (grandma's) and are they being adequately voiced
> within the Fedora community.
>
>  I'm an author and book designer, and I could not write a line of code, if it led to a
> nightly date with Keira Knightley. (Sorry)
>
>  Not that I am disparaging developers, far from it. They are the backbone of the Linux
> world, and FOSS! But it is the end-user that actually uses our software: or not. Input
> about their needs and habits is vital.
>
>  Let me give an example: Fedora 8-KDE, the GIMP spin-off Krita. Great little version
> except that it was almost un-usable for a real artist. Why, because the pop-up menu boxes,
> you needed to do the work, obstructed the image area. Sometimes, they got so big you
> couldn't even see the right scroll-bar. You were forever moving them around; the only
> other choice was to turn them all off. They would not slide behind the image window.
>
>  That one flaw, in an otherwise great piece of software, ruined my experience and led me
> to yum in the Gimp. I imagined, at the time, the developers simply did not realize how
> such a thing might effect the whole thing in totality. Probably because they were not
> artists and too busy writing code and not doing art. That particular problem was fixed in
> newer versions, but the point is still valid. If that one detail happened to a new Fedora
> user who was an artist, we might just have drove her back to Daddy Bill.
>
>  Please do not think that I am disparaging KDE. KDE rocks my world. Take Ktorrent for
> example. What can I say about that beauty, except eternal hugs and kisses to whoever
> created it.
>
>  Anyway. I realize the code-writers cannot be to theoretical; they are limited by what
> they can do and not always by what they would like to do. But marketing is not just about
> providing products to a fickle user-audience that knows it has choices and wants to be
> pampered. It is vital to create cutting-edge software that people can depend on and work
> with. And to do that the code-writers need input from their grandma. 

While I don't know that this is the proper list for discussion - I'd
agree that the 'grandmas' and other end-users can offer valuable
input. Part of the problem is most of the time they don't communicate
the problems they are having which could probably be fixed. So that
poses the question how do they have influence and power to get
involved? The answer is pretty simple - they file bugs, they become
involved in the process. The perception of developers alone wielding
the power to direct a project is probably an accurate reflection of
reality - but only because others aren't getting involved. For
instance, the problem you cite above with Krita - did you file a bug
against it? If you did, that's great. If you didn't - how do you
expect your perspective and the problems you have to be known?


David Nalley

[Clint Savage]

On Thu, Oct 23, 2008 at 8:50 AM, David Nalley <david(a)gnsa.us&gt; wrote:
>  On Wed, Oct 22, 2008 at 11:56 PM, Doug Berry
> <slasherzee(a)yahoo.com&gt; wrote:
> >>>Jonas wrote:
> >>historically speaking developers are good at creating new development
> >>models, cool features, new and innovative stuff and be the cowboys on
> >>the frontline. One thing that developers has been better and better at
> >>over the years is human interaction, this is still an area that it is
> >>good to have outsiders for (the grandma example) To not only drive the
> >>technical frontline but also the usability.
> >>>
> >>They are the ones to write and merge the code, to decide which idéas go >where.
> So my question about statistics is about that, to know if there >are many people not
> writing code that actually have any influence about >what goes where.
> >
> > Hi, I'm new here, but a long-time Fedora user. I think Jonas raised a very valid
> point about the needs of the end-user (grandma's) and are they being adequately voiced
> within the Fedora community.
> >
> > I'm an author and book designer, and I could not write a line of code, if it led
> to a nightly date with Keira Knightley. (Sorry)
> >
> > Not that I am disparaging developers, far from it. They are the backbone of the Linux
> world, and FOSS! But it is the end-user that actually uses our software: or not. Input
> about their needs and habits is vital.
> >
> > Let me give an example: Fedora 8-KDE, the GIMP spin-off Krita. Great little version
> except that it was almost un-usable for a real artist. Why, because the pop-up menu boxes,
> you needed to do the work, obstructed the image area. Sometimes, they got so big you
> couldn't even see the right scroll-bar. You were forever moving them around; the only
> other choice was to turn them all off. They would not slide behind the image window.
> >
> > That one flaw, in an otherwise great piece of software, ruined my experience and led
> me to yum in the Gimp. I imagined, at the time, the developers simply did not realize how
> such a thing might effect the whole thing in totality. Probably because they were not
> artists and too busy writing code and not doing art. That particular problem was fixed in
> newer versions, but the point is still valid. If that one detail happened to a new Fedora
> user who was an artist, we might just have drove her back to Daddy Bill.
> >
> > Please do not think that I am disparaging KDE. KDE rocks my world. Take Ktorrent for
> example. What can I say about that beauty, except eternal hugs and kisses to whoever
> created it.
> >
> > Anyway. I realize the code-writers cannot be to theoretical; they are limited by what
> they can do and not always by what they would like to do. But marketing is not just about
> providing products to a fickle user-audience that knows it has choices and wants to be
> pampered. It is vital to create cutting-edge software that people can depend on and work
> with. And to do that the code-writers need input from their grandma.
>
>
>  While I don't know that this is the proper list for discussion - I'd
>  agree that the 'grandmas' and other end-users can offer valuable
>  input. Part of the problem is most of the time they don't communicate
>  the problems they are having which could probably be fixed. So that
>  poses the question how do they have influence and power to get
>  involved? The answer is pretty simple - they file bugs, they become
>  involved in the process. The perception of developers alone wielding
>  the power to direct a project is probably an accurate reflection of
>  reality - but only because others aren't getting involved. For
>  instance, the problem you cite above with Krita - did you file a bug
>  against it? If you did, that's great. If you didn't - how do you
>  expect your perspective and the problems you have to be known?
>
>
>  David Nalley 
And I will make quite the opposite argument.  If you are a grandma,
how are you to know that logging bugs will help your situation?  I
think this is an opportunity for us as ambassadors to make inroads
with our families and get them involved in the process.  Without
average users providing perspective, how do we plan to make an
operating system to accommodate their needs as well?

Cheers,

Clint

[Mathieu Bridon]

>  And I will make quite the opposite argument.  If you are a grandma,
>  how are you to know that logging bugs will help your situation?  I
>  think this is an opportunity for us as ambassadors to make inroads
>  with our families and get them involved in the process.  Without
>  average users providing perspective, how do we plan to make an
>  operating system to accommodate their needs as well? 
"Mummy, when you have a problem with your computer, you go to this
website, you select the component that is in fault, the version of the OS,
the architecture, and then you specify your problem".

Now, if my mother ever manages to fill a bug report ("what does arch mean
? How do I know which component is faulty ?"), it will look like:
"J'ai cliqué sur 'machin', ça marche pas".

Yes, my mother doesn't speak english. But that's no problem as the bug
zappers are great and will translate the report for the devs !

Here is what it means in english:
"I clicked on 'stuff' and it doesn't work".

Yeah, grandma input will definitely be useful :-/

The problem here is that we want feedback from the most basic end-users
with the least knowledge possible, but we definitely don't have the tools
required for that (and I doubt it is even possible to create such tools
that would not require massive human interaction with the end-user).

Not an easy problem to solve...


----------

Mathieu Bridon (bochecha)
French Fedora Ambassador

----------
"They who can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary
safety, deserve neither liberty nor safety." ~Benjamin Franklin

[Clint Savage]

On Thu, Oct 23, 2008 at 9:15 AM, Mathieu Bridon (bochecha)
<bochecha(a)fedoraproject.org&gt; wrote:
> > And I will make quite the opposite argument.  If you are a
> grandma,
> > how are you to know that logging bugs will help your situation?  I
> > think this is an opportunity for us as ambassadors to make inroads
> > with our families and get them involved in the process.  Without
> > average users providing perspective, how do we plan to make an
> > operating system to accommodate their needs as well?
>
>  "Mummy, when you have a problem with your computer, you go to this
>  website, you select the component that is in fault, the version of the OS,
>  the architecture, and then you specify your problem".
>
>  Now, if my mother ever manages to fill a bug report ("what does arch mean
>  ? How do I know which component is faulty ?"), it will look like:
>  "J'ai cliqué sur 'machin', ça marche pas". 

>  Yes, my mother doesn't speak english. But that's no problem
> as the bug
>  zappers are great and will translate the report for the devs !
>
>  Here is what it means in english:
>  "I clicked on 'stuff' and it doesn't work".
>
>  Yeah, grandma input will definitely be useful :-/ 
Not in that form she won't, which was pretty much my point.  Grandma
needs a 'did you do this?, then this?, then this?' step-by-step
questionnaire asking her for her input (or something like that).  We
must make it simple, or be the middleman.

>  The problem here is that we want feedback from the most basic
> end-users
>  with the least knowledge possible, but we definitely don't have the tools
>  required for that (and I doubt it is even possible to create such tools
>  that would not require massive human interaction with the end-user). 
One idea that came out of FUDCon F10 was FedoraFamily[1].    One idea
was we could have a support channel.  From the user's side a support
icon could be placed on the top task bar (in GNOME anyway) which would
open a web page with FAQs and a support decision tree, but if they
were truly stuck, they could click 'chat with fedora support' and be
brought in touch with someone. This support channel would provide chat
support to something like #fedora with an alert to the ops that a
request for support was in #fedorasupport-somerandomnumber (or
something).  Someone manning #fedora could essentially go into this
private room and help the user.

There are several tricky parts with this;

1 The implication that Fedora support would possibly help people not
on current supported versions of Fedora, and what the process would be
to help get them to these newer versions
2 The support queue is already lengthy in #fedora
3 When questions arise that are outside of the support Fedora
provides, how to proceed
4 VOIP would be a good idea when connectivity is not working...
5 This doesn't necessarily solve the problem of logging bugs from
grandma, but puts them in touch with a Fedoran who can help gather the
correct info and log a bug on their behalf or something.

>  Not an easy problem to solve... 
Nope it sure isn't, but I like the FedoraFamily idea and was hoping
for more participation.  Maybe now is a good time to restart this
idea?

Cheers,

Clint

1- https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/FedoraFamily