We suck at explaining stuff

[Marc Wiriadisastra]

http://mugshot.org/visit?post=A4qnm617gmRBRx

Interesting post.  Do you think he has a point.

Cheers,

Marc

[Zhukov Pavel]

On Feb 6, 2008 2:00 PM, Marc Wiriadisastra <marc(a)mwiriadi.id.au&gt; wrote:
>  http://mugshot.org/visit?post=A4qnm617gmRBRx
>
>  Interesting post.  Do you think he has a point.
>
>  Cheers,
>
>  Marc
>
>  --
>  Fedora-marketing-list mailing list
>  Fedora-marketing-list(a)redhat.com
>  https://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/fedora-marketing-list
>  
Agree. Definition should be absolutely clear, even if people first
time listen about this problem

[sankarshan]

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Marc Wiriadisastra wrote:

| Interesting post.  Do you think he has a point.

He does have a point, but his target is misplaced. The notes which Rahul
posted don't require an extended and elaborate discussion about what it
does. However, the team which has been working on getting that "stack"
pushed in ought to put up a page (I haven't checked the wiki if such a
page exists) which relates that coolness to actual real-life UseCases
(potential as well as possible ones).

Talking about how the technology can lower your electricity bills is
always a fun thing :)

~sankarshan


- --

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[Nicu Buculei]

Marc Wiriadisastra wrote:
>  http://mugshot.org/visit?post=A4qnm617gmRBRx
>  
>  Interesting post.  Do you think he has a point. 
You know the proverbial question "how will this software get my users 
laid" [1], this post ask the question from the user point of view, "how 
will this software get *me* laid" and is absolutely correct.

[1] - http://www.jwz.org/doc/groupware.html

-- 
nicu :: http://nicubunu.ro :: http://nicubunu.blogspot.com
Cool Fedora wallpapers: http://fedora.nicubunu.ro/wallpapers/
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my Fedora stuff: http://fedora.nicubunu.ro

[David Nielsen]

ons, 06 02 2008 kl. 20:00 +0900, skrev Marc Wiriadisastra:
>  http://mugshot.org/visit?post=A4qnm617gmRBRx
>  
>  Interesting post.  Do you think he has a point. 
We do a bit of a track record of problems marketing our cool stuff to
people, it's part of why Fedora isn't getting the press it could. This
is just a really good example of how we tend to go about marketing our
features. Listing a bunch of projects and implying it ties them together
says nothing about the functionality it provides to 99% of all people.

I think it would be nice if we tried to list improvements in terms of
the problems we are trying to solve instead of the solutions we
implement. Frame the problem, present the solution and conclude with
visions of future improvements.

- David

[Rahul Sundaram]

David Nielsen wrote:
>  ons, 06 02 2008 kl. 20:00 +0900, skrev Marc Wiriadisastra:
> > http://mugshot.org/visit?post=A4qnm617gmRBRx
> >
> > Interesting post.  Do you think he has a point.
>  
>  We do a bit of a track record of problems marketing our cool stuff to
>  people, it's part of why Fedora isn't getting the press it could. This
>  is just a really good example of how we tend to go about marketing our
>  features. Listing a bunch of projects and implying it ties them together
>  says nothing about the functionality it provides to 99% of all people. 
Sure and an interview would fix that which I am well aware. If people 
have time, contribute. Repeat: It isn't that we don't know what the 
flaws are. It is that we don't have enough contributors to fix them.

Rahul

[Jonathan Roberts]

>  Sure and an interview would fix that which I am well aware. If
> people
>  have time, contribute. Repeat: It isn't that we don't know what the
>  flaws are. It is that we don't have enough contributors to fix them.
>  
+1  - I helped write that particular section and while I appreciate
the feedback I'd like the author to have known two things:

1) Those release notes were mostly put together by me and Rahul - I
think I'm correct in saying this - and it takes quite a lot of time.
If more people contributed then we could come up with better
descriptions for all of the points that we're highlighting.

2) In light of 1) - i.e. having limited time - we can only spend so
much time explaining what each feature is and why it matters. The
description of that feature I'm sure is adequate for the people who
it's useful to to understand; likewise the description of features
that are more relevant to end-users is at least a bit better - I hope.

But yes, more contributors will mean we have more man hours to throw
at this and can do a better job. Please, join in.

Jon

[David Nielsen]

ons, 06 02 2008 kl. 18:00 +0000, skrev Jonathan Roberts:
>  > Sure and an interview would fix that which I am well aware. If
> people
>  > have time, contribute. Repeat: It isn't that we don't know what the
>  > flaws are. It is that we don't have enough contributors to fix them.
>  >
>  
>  +1  - I helped write that particular section and while I appreciate
>  the feedback I'd like the author to have known two things: 
I love how people assume:

a) that I don't contribute
b) that man power is an excuse for making the same mistakes over and
over.

I am an active contributor I maintain several packages and do a lot of
work around Fedora. I give Fedora as many hours of my day as I can,
currently it's a lot, brushing off criticism on the grounds that I
refuse to give you more is not logical. Following that thinking the only
way to be entitled to an opinion would be ceasing to sleep, eating or
having a social life so to take part in each and every aspect of Fedora
intimately. I take bug reports on my work, the marketing team can
consider this the same on their work.

- David

[Rahul Sundaram]

David Nielsen wrote:
>  ons, 06 02 2008 kl. 18:00 +0000, skrev Jonathan Roberts:
> >> Sure and an interview would fix that which I am well aware. If people
> >> have time, contribute. Repeat: It isn't that we don't know what the
> >> flaws are. It is that we don't have enough contributors to fix them.
> >>
> > +1  - I helped write that particular section and while I appreciate
> > the feedback I'd like the author to have known two things:
>  
>  I love how people assume:
>  
>  a) that I don't contribute
>  b) that man power is an excuse for making the same mistakes over and
>  over. 
We assumed neither but unless we have contributors to the *marketing 
team*, this is really the best we can offer currently. My personal blog 
summary is not meant to be a vivid explanation of what every feature 
means from a end user perspective but just a brief summary.  Sorry if 
that doesn't meet your requirements.

Rahul

[Jonathan Roberts]

>  I love how people assume:
>
>  a) that I don't contribute
>  b) that man power is an excuse for making the same mistakes over and
>  over. 
I'm sorry you interpreted me that way but I really meant neither. The
comment of needing more contributors was not aimed at you personally
but was a simple fact: we put in as much work as we could to the
release summary, just as you and many others put in as much work as
you can packaging and developing Fedora (which, btw, is really
appreciated and is why I'm involved in the marketing project - to help
people like you get appreciation for the all the hard work that you
put in).

I won't go on to explain myself any more - I've already blogged my
more detailed comments and think this is probably heading off-topic
for the marketing list. Feedback is appreciated and for beta release
we'll try and do a better job at explaining things to your average
desktop user :)

Anyway, I hope I haven't offended you and I hope you'll see where
we're coming from too.

Best wishes,

Jon

[David Nielsen]

ons, 06 02 2008 kl. 19:25 +0000, skrev Jonathan Roberts:

>  Anyway, I hope I haven't offended you and I hope you'll see
> where
>  we're coming from too. 
I think interviews would be a great way to both create a bit of hype
during the development cycle and maybe let you get away with smaller
release notes, in that most of the fun explanatory stuff could be hidden
behind a "learn more about this feature in this interview" link. This
would offload you during the cycle and give you a reference for writing
the feature notes.

Or we could raise the request that feature inclusion came with a demand
to provide a release note feature description. Even if such a note was
just 3 lines of text it would give something to go on and expand upon,
serve a base for asking questions.

There are ways to make your life easier, more productive ways than
saying that you are just 2 guys with limited time and if we want it
nicer we should contribute. By telling you where it hurts we are trying
to help, just like a user is helping me make Fedora better when he files
a bugreport.

- David

[Rahul Sundaram]

David Nielsen wrote:
>  ons, 06 02 2008 kl. 19:25 +0000, skrev Jonathan Roberts:
>  
> > Anyway, I hope I haven't offended you and I hope you'll see where
> > we're coming from too.
>  
>  I think interviews would be a great way to both create a bit of hype
>  during the development cycle and maybe let you get away with smaller
>  release notes, in that most of the fun explanatory stuff could be hidden
>  behind a "learn more about this feature in this interview" link. This
>  would offload you during the cycle and give you a reference for writing
>  the feature notes. 
Well it won't offload our work if the people doing the release notes are 
the same people doing the interview work.

>  Or we could raise the request that feature inclusion came with a
> demand
>  to provide a release note feature description. Even if such a note was
>  just 3 lines of text it would give something to go on and expand upon,
>  serve a base for asking questions. 
Such a discussion is already happening in Fedora devel list now. I 
expect push back as we had a lot of push back when the feature process 
was introduced. It is never easy.

>  There are ways to make your life easier, more productive ways than
>  saying that you are just 2 guys with limited time and if we want it
>  nicer we should contribute. By telling you where it hurts we are trying
>  to help, just like a user is helping me make Fedora better when he files
>  a bugreport. 
Only if there are people sitting on the other end processing those bug 
reports. Now we have hundreds of bugs being filed and not many people to 
triage them. As far as marketing team is concerned, what we need is a 
triage team and more maintainers willing to fix stuff. I could give you 
a long list of already filed bug reports to process.

Rahul