11:43 a.m.
I think this is an important issue. I must say it´s impressive how
Fedora has been changing and giving much more attention, on each
realease, to the needs of end-users. We don´t need to go very far. If we
compare FC5 and F10, we can see there are huge differences in terms of
end-user support. NetworkManager is one great example.
Although this has been really nice, I think there are things to improve.
I´m always hiting on the same key when it comes to end-users. I know
Fedora cannot (and should not) go away from its objectives (which is the
very reason of its success), but paying attention to the end-user voice
should be added as one *serious* project objective also. I mean, side by
side with "smooth updates", "rapid evolution" and the other good
Fedora
principles.
I don´t have any doubts about the quality of the software behind Fedora.
And I´m aware a lot of people don´t mind if Fedora has a lot of
end-users or not. And that´s what I think should be changed. Fedora
should seek for increasing the number of end-users. And that´s only
possible when it receives, with an open spirit, and put to
consideration, the end-users demands. I´m not saying it´s not done at
all. I´m only suggesting it should be added as a main goal.
Doug Berry escreveu:
>> Jonas wrote:
>>
> historically speaking developers are good at creating new development
> models, cool features, new and innovative stuff and be the cowboys on
> the frontline. One thing that developers has been better and better at
> over the years is human interaction, this is still an area that it is
> good to have outsiders for (the grandma example) To not only drive the
> technical frontline but also the usability.
>
> They are the ones to write and merge the code, to decide which idéas go >where. So
my question about statistics is about that, to know if there >are many people not
writing code that actually have any influence about >what goes where.
>
Hi, I'm new here, but a long-time Fedora user. I think Jonas raised a very valid
point about the needs of the end-user (grandma's) and are they being adequately voiced
within the Fedora community.
I'm an author and book designer, and I could not write a line of code, if it led to a
nightly date with Keira Knightley. (Sorry)
Not that I am disparaging developers, far from it. They are the backbone of the Linux
world, and FOSS! But it is the end-user that actually uses our software: or not. Input
about their needs and habits is vital.
Let me give an example: Fedora 8-KDE, the GIMP spin-off Krita. Great little version
except that it was almost un-usable for a real artist. Why, because the pop-up menu boxes,
you needed to do the work, obstructed the image area. Sometimes, they got so big you
couldn't even see the right scroll-bar. You were forever moving them around; the only
other choice was to turn them all off. They would not slide behind the image window.
That one flaw, in an otherwise great piece of software, ruined my experience and led me
to yum in the Gimp. I imagined, at the time, the developers simply did not realize how
such a thing might effect the whole thing in totality. Probably because they were not
artists and too busy writing code and not doing art. That particular problem was fixed in
newer versions, but the point is still valid. If that one detail happened to a new Fedora
user who was an artist, we might just have drove her back to Daddy Bill.
Please do not think that I am disparaging KDE. KDE rocks my world. Take Ktorrent for
example. What can I say about that beauty, except eternal hugs and kisses to whoever
created it.
Anyway. I realize the code-writers cannot be to theoretical; they are limited by what
they can do and not always by what they would like to do. But marketing is not just about
providing products to a fickle user-audience that knows it has choices and wants to be
pampered. It is vital to create cutting-edge software that people can depend on and work
with. And to do that the code-writers need input from their grandma.
-- w Douglas Berry --
slasherzee(a)fedoraproject.org
__________________________________________________
Faça ligações para outros computadores com o novo Yahoo! Messenger
http://br.beta.messenger.yahoo.com/
2:34 p.m.
New subject: Developers vs Grandmas
On Thu, 2008-10-23 at 13:43 -0300, Luis Felipe Marzagao wrote:
I think this is an important issue. I must say it´s impressive how
Fedora has been changing and giving much more attention, on each
realease, to the needs of end-users. We don´t need to go very far. If we
compare FC5 and F10, we can see there are huge differences in terms of
end-user support. NetworkManager is one great example.
In many cases, Fedora is just the face for upstream software
development. Take GNOME as an example -- there is a project with a
strong opinion about user interface design and human interaction.
We're not adding much value on top of that, except to channel bugs back
to GNOME.
I think we need to be clear about which problems we can solve within
_this_ project.
Although this has been really nice, I think there are things to
improve.
I´m always hiting on the same key when it comes to end-users. I know
Fedora cannot (and should not) go away from its objectives (which is the
very reason of its success), but paying attention to the end-user voice
should be added as one *serious* project objective also. I mean, side by
side with "smooth updates", "rapid evolution" and the other good
Fedora
principles.
I don´t have any doubts about the quality of the software behind Fedora.
And I´m aware a lot of people don´t mind if Fedora has a lot of
end-users or not. And that´s what I think should be changed. Fedora
should seek for increasing the number of end-users. And that´s only
possible when it receives, with an open spirit, and put to
consideration, the end-users demands. I´m not saying it´s not done at
all. I´m only suggesting it should be added as a main goal.
I think we are safer leaving that goal to the upstream projects we adopt
from. Let us channel user experience back to GNOME, KDE, et al, and all
the smaller applications.
I do think that having something such as, "Grow quantity of consuming
end-users by focusing on their demands," is going to be at direct odds
with the rest of the project objectives. We cannot effectively test the
quality of the latest GNOME and KDE interface, for example, if we are
not willing to put it out there as-is and see what happens. If we feel
we need to "adjust" such software to match end-user demands directly, we
begin a very slippery process. It might appear successful at first, as
it is for other distros, but in the long run, it is a failing
proposition.
This is an evolutionary process. We need to *first* improve the quality
of tools that Fedora contributors use. We need to make it simple for
people who help in #fedora to file and track bugs, etc. As we have
success there, we can push those tools closer and closer to the edge
where the end-user lives.
- Karsten
--
Karsten Wade, Community Gardener
Dev Fu : http://developer.redhatmagazine.com
Fedora : http://quaid.fedorapeople.org
gpg key : AD0E0C41
5:28 a.m.
New subject: Developers vs Grandmas
Luis Felipe Marzagao wrote:
Exactly! It's clear it's not in the project objective to
alter
upstream software. And in fact I agree it shouldn't be!
The trouble is the end-user doesn't even know what upstream means. In
fact, I think the end-user won't even want to know what it means, as
long as the system is running fine. For him, Fedora is an operating
system. And the GNOME example is very good for this matter. There are
somethings that don't imply altering the core of upstream projects in
order to make the "out of the box" user experience more happy :)
A single line, for example, could improve the user experience when
entering GNOME on Fedora:
gconftool-2 -s -t bool /apps/nautilus/preferences/always_use_browser true
Bingo! A single line (maybe with some other adjustments) in any
rc.local file or any other place specifically designded by Fedora
Project should make the end-user experience a lot better. And it does
not require any upstream intervention or any opinion change by GNOME
upstream team. And is very simple to maintain. And that's it, the
end-user would enter Fedora for the first time and would not complain
about a zilion windows opening every time he clicks on a folder.
It's just an example, but my point is there are small things that
makes the user experience better and does not require huge changes on
coding. I think this is the kind of problem Fedora Project should pay
attention to, as you adequately put.
I agree 100% here.
There are bunch of little things we could do to make Fedora more user
friendly to the end-user.
( Actually basing on my own experience with end-users Gnome has begun
going backwards on usability
it has become so simple that is hard to use. End users expect certain
options, buttons to be there along
with hints if uncertain of how to do things )
Gather faq statistics from the Fedora forum and #fedora channel and
address those issues.
( if possible ).
It also has to be realized that developers are end-users too and if
Fedora does not make
good enough first impression to them, how can the project expect them to
get involved?
Best regards
Johann B.
8:13 a.m.
New subject: Developers vs Grandmas
I agree 100% too, but we can do one of the two options:
First, ask to upstream change this options to improve the life of
end-users or change this options in Fedora.
2008/10/24 "Jóhann B. Guðmundsson" <johannbg(a)hi.is>:
Luis Felipe Marzagao wrote:
>
> Exactly! It's clear it's not in the project objective to alter upstream
> software. And in fact I agree it shouldn't be!
>
> The trouble is the end-user doesn't even know what upstream means. In
> fact, I think the end-user won't even want to know what it means, as long as
> the system is running fine. For him, Fedora is an operating system. And the
> GNOME example is very good for this matter. There are somethings that don't
> imply altering the core of upstream projects in order to make the "out of
> the box" user experience more happy :)
>
> A single line, for example, could improve the user experience when
> entering GNOME on Fedora:
>
> gconftool-2 -s -t bool /apps/nautilus/preferences/always_use_browser true
>
> Bingo! A single line (maybe with some other adjustments) in any rc.local
> file or any other place specifically designded by Fedora Project should make
> the end-user experience a lot better. And it does not require any upstream
> intervention or any opinion change by GNOME upstream team. And is very
> simple to maintain. And that's it, the end-user would enter Fedora for the
> first time and would not complain about a zilion windows opening every time
> he clicks on a folder.
>
> It's just an example, but my point is there are small things that makes
> the user experience better and does not require huge changes on coding. I
> think this is the kind of problem Fedora Project should pay attention to, as
> you adequately put.
>
I agree 100% here.
There are bunch of little things we could do to make Fedora more user
friendly to the end-user.
( Actually basing on my own experience with end-users Gnome has begun going
backwards on usability
it has become so simple that is hard to use. End users expect certain
options, buttons to be there along
with hints if uncertain of how to do things )
Gather faq statistics from the Fedora forum and #fedora channel and address
those issues.
( if possible ).
It also has to be realized that developers are end-users too and if Fedora
does not make
good enough first impression to them, how can the project expect them to get
involved?
Best regards
Johann B.
--
Fedora-marketing-list mailing list
Fedora-marketing-list(a)redhat.com
https://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/fedora-marketing-list
--
Rafael Gomes
Consultor em TI
Embaixador Fedora
LPIC-1
(71) 8709-1289
11:26 a.m.
New subject: Developers vs Grandmas
On Fri, 2008-10-24 at 10:13 -0300, Rafael Gomes wrote:
I agree 100% too, but we can do one of the two options:
First, ask to upstream change this options to improve the life of
end-users or change this options in Fedora.
The confusion I have reading the several replies you are all agreeing to
is this:
* People agree we need to work with upstream and not change their
software, but
* People agree we need to change the upstream software
For example, changing gconf default behavior is in fact changing the
upstream software. Now Nautilus on Fedora would behave differently.
Any bug reports need to include a list of all the changes we made to the
defaults, giving Fedora more to maintain. All based on some instincts
and reports that really should be made as bug reports and observations
directly to the upstream!
There is very little benefit to Fedora, our users, and the overall
community for us to focus on changes we can make to upstream to improve
our own user's experience. If they change is valid and worthwhile, it
needs to happen in the upstream.
- Karsten
2008/10/24 "Jóhann B. Guðmundsson" <johannbg(a)hi.is>:
> Luis Felipe Marzagao wrote:
>>
>> Exactly! It's clear it's not in the project objective to alter upstream
>> software. And in fact I agree it shouldn't be!
>>
>> The trouble is the end-user doesn't even know what upstream means. In
>> fact, I think the end-user won't even want to know what it means, as long
as
>> the system is running fine. For him, Fedora is an operating system. And the
>> GNOME example is very good for this matter. There are somethings that don't
>> imply altering the core of upstream projects in order to make the "out of
>> the box" user experience more happy :)
>>
>> A single line, for example, could improve the user experience when
>> entering GNOME on Fedora:
>>
>> gconftool-2 -s -t bool /apps/nautilus/preferences/always_use_browser true
>>
>> Bingo! A single line (maybe with some other adjustments) in any rc.local
>> file or any other place specifically designded by Fedora Project should make
>> the end-user experience a lot better. And it does not require any upstream
>> intervention or any opinion change by GNOME upstream team. And is very
>> simple to maintain. And that's it, the end-user would enter Fedora for the
>> first time and would not complain about a zilion windows opening every time
>> he clicks on a folder.
>>
>> It's just an example, but my point is there are small things that makes
>> the user experience better and does not require huge changes on coding. I
>> think this is the kind of problem Fedora Project should pay attention to, as
>> you adequately put.
>>
> I agree 100% here.
>
> There are bunch of little things we could do to make Fedora more user
> friendly to the end-user.
> ( Actually basing on my own experience with end-users Gnome has begun going
> backwards on usability
> it has become so simple that is hard to use. End users expect certain
> options, buttons to be there along
> with hints if uncertain of how to do things )
>
> Gather faq statistics from the Fedora forum and #fedora channel and address
> those issues.
> ( if possible ).
>
> It also has to be realized that developers are end-users too and if Fedora
> does not make
> good enough first impression to them, how can the project expect them to get
> involved?
>
> Best regards
> Johann B.
>
>
>
>
>
> --
> Fedora-marketing-list mailing list
> Fedora-marketing-list(a)redhat.com
> https://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/fedora-marketing-list
>
--
Rafael Gomes
Consultor em TI
Embaixador Fedora
LPIC-1
(71) 8709-1289
--
Karsten Wade, Community Gardener
Dev Fu : http://developer.redhatmagazine.com
Fedora : http://quaid.fedorapeople.org
gpg key : AD0E0C41
11:56 a.m.
New subject: Developers vs Grandmas
I beg to differ regarding this comment:
"For example, changing gconf default behavior is in fact changing the
upstream software. Now Nautilus on Fedora would behave differently."
The Fedora LiveCD, for example, changes default gconf behaviour of
turning screen saver lock off, autologin, logos etc.
Another single line there changing nautilus wouldn´t imply altering
upstream, just as the above changes don´t. Maybe a little effort in some
areas like this one should be considered. That is my suggestion.
We must also take into consideration that many bug reports remain open
forever, without any feedback. I have some like that filed by myself.
And it gets worse if the enhancement suggested might go against the
upstream´s point of view.
Anyway, I think the issue is important and I hope the list receives my
comments with an open spirit. All I say is in the best interests of
end-users. It´s important such issues are discussed.
Thanks a lot for the points that have been made so far.
Karsten 'quaid' Wade escreveu:
On Fri, 2008-10-24 at 10:13 -0300, Rafael Gomes wrote:
> I agree 100% too, but we can do one of the two options:
>
> First, ask to upstream change this options to improve the life of
> end-users or change this options in Fedora.
>
The confusion I have reading the several replies you are all agreeing to
is this:
* People agree we need to work with upstream and not change their
software, but
* People agree we need to change the upstream software
For example, changing gconf default behavior is in fact changing the
upstream software. Now Nautilus on Fedora would behave differently.
Any bug reports need to include a list of all the changes we made to the
defaults, giving Fedora more to maintain. All based on some instincts
and reports that really should be made as bug reports and observations
directly to the upstream!
There is very little benefit to Fedora, our users, and the overall
community for us to focus on changes we can make to upstream to improve
our own user's experience. If they change is valid and worthwhile, it
needs to happen in the upstream.
- Karsten
> 2008/10/24 "Jóhann B. Guðmundsson" <johannbg(a)hi.is>:
>
>> Luis Felipe Marzagao wrote:
>>
>>> Exactly! It's clear it's not in the project objective to alter
upstream
>>> software. And in fact I agree it shouldn't be!
>>>
>>> The trouble is the end-user doesn't even know what upstream means. In
>>> fact, I think the end-user won't even want to know what it means, as long
as
>>> the system is running fine. For him, Fedora is an operating system. And the
>>> GNOME example is very good for this matter. There are somethings that
don't
>>> imply altering the core of upstream projects in order to make the "out
of
>>> the box" user experience more happy :)
>>>
>>> A single line, for example, could improve the user experience when
>>> entering GNOME on Fedora:
>>>
>>> gconftool-2 -s -t bool /apps/nautilus/preferences/always_use_browser true
>>>
>>> Bingo! A single line (maybe with some other adjustments) in any rc.local
>>> file or any other place specifically designded by Fedora Project should make
>>> the end-user experience a lot better. And it does not require any upstream
>>> intervention or any opinion change by GNOME upstream team. And is very
>>> simple to maintain. And that's it, the end-user would enter Fedora for
the
>>> first time and would not complain about a zilion windows opening every time
>>> he clicks on a folder.
>>>
>>> It's just an example, but my point is there are small things that makes
>>> the user experience better and does not require huge changes on coding. I
>>> think this is the kind of problem Fedora Project should pay attention to, as
>>> you adequately put.
>>>
>>>
>> I agree 100% here.
>>
>> There are bunch of little things we could do to make Fedora more user
>> friendly to the end-user.
>> ( Actually basing on my own experience with end-users Gnome has begun going
>> backwards on usability
>> it has become so simple that is hard to use. End users expect certain
>> options, buttons to be there along
>> with hints if uncertain of how to do things )
>>
>> Gather faq statistics from the Fedora forum and #fedora channel and address
>> those issues.
>> ( if possible ).
>>
>> It also has to be realized that developers are end-users too and if Fedora
>> does not make
>> good enough first impression to them, how can the project expect them to get
>> involved?
>>
>> Best regards
>> Johann B.
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> --
>> Fedora-marketing-list mailing list
>> Fedora-marketing-list(a)redhat.com
>> https://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/fedora-marketing-list
>>
>>
>
> --
> Rafael Gomes
> Consultor em TI
> Embaixador Fedora
> LPIC-1
> (71) 8709-1289
>
>
__________________________________________________
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http://br.beta.messenger.yahoo.com/
12:13 p.m.
New subject: Developers vs Grandmas
We must also take into consideration that many bug reports remain
open
forever, without any feedback. I have some like that filed by myself. And it
gets worse if the enhancement suggested might go against the upstream´s
point of view.
The bug triage team are working very hard on this, and if you're
interested, I'd suggest you chat to them about ways you can help
improve their work further :)
Anyway, I think the issue is important and I hope the list receives my
comments with an open spirit. All I say is in the best interests of
end-users. It´s important such issues are discussed.
As Karsten said, I would definitely recommend taking this conversation
to the devel list, as people there are the one's who will implement
future changes.
Jon
4:21 p.m.
New subject: Developers vs Grandmas
Luis Felipe Marzagao wrote:
I beg to differ regarding this comment:
"For example, changing gconf default behavior is in fact changing the
upstream software. Now Nautilus on Fedora would behave differently."
The Fedora LiveCD, for example, changes default gconf behaviour of
turning screen saver lock off, autologin, logos etc.
These changes are made only for the live cd environment to make Fedora
more suitable as a live CD. You would lose them all once you install it
however. It appears that a nautilus change only for the live cd
environment doesn't add any real value and hence changing the default
file manager behavior is different from the other non-persistent changes
you have pointed out.
Rahul
4:42 p.m.
New subject: Developers vs Grandmas
Sure! But the idea behind it is what is valuable, I think! It shows a
simple local file could improve the user experience without having to
alter upstream hard-code, and in an easy to maintain manner. Why not do
it in a persistent way locally, by Fedora Project, the same way logos,
for example, are maintained? Well, if the name of this list is
"expanding the Fedora user base", I think this is a tiny thing that
would do it. But, anyway, this is just my humble opinion (based on what
I hear from users near me). I certainly do not want to populate the
wrong list if this is considered to be the case. Thanks for your comments.
Rahul Sundaram escreveu:
Luis Felipe Marzagao wrote:
> I beg to differ regarding this comment:
>
> "For example, changing gconf default behavior is in fact changing the
> upstream software. Now Nautilus on Fedora would behave differently."
>
> The Fedora LiveCD, for example, changes default gconf behaviour of
> turning screen saver lock off, autologin, logos etc.
These changes are made only for the live cd environment to make Fedora
more suitable as a live CD. You would lose them all once you install
it however. It appears that a nautilus change only for the live cd
environment doesn't add any real value and hence changing the default
file manager behavior is different from the other non-persistent
changes you have pointed out.
Rahul
7:24 p.m.
New subject: Developers vs Grandmas
Luis Felipe Marzagao wrote:
Sure! But the idea behind it is what is valuable, I think! It shows a
simple local file could improve the user experience without having to
alter upstream hard-code, and in an easy to maintain manner. Why not do
it in a persistent way locally, by Fedora Project, the same way logos,
for example, are maintained? Well, if the name of this list is
"expanding the Fedora user base", I think this is a tiny thing that
would do it. But, anyway, this is just my humble opinion (based on what
I hear from users near me). I certainly do not want to populate the
wrong list if this is considered to be the case. Thanks for your comments.
If there is value in changing the setting, then there is value in
discussing how disruptive it is. IMO, we haven't established that there
is enough reasons for changing the settings beyond personal preferences.
Since, there is already a discussion on this, in fedora-desktop list, I
would recommend joining that if you have additional input.
Rahul
5652
days inactive
5657
days old
marketing@lists.fedoraproject.org
10 comments
7 participants
participants (7)
-
"Jóhann B. Guðmundsson" -
Jonathan Roberts -
Karsten Wade -
Luis Felipe Marzagao -
Luis Felipe Marzagao/Yahoo -
Rafael Gomes -
Rahul Sundaram