Hello All, A couple of things. I spent sometime last week trying to "checkout" the website from the CVS. I followed everything that as was written on the Fedoraproject.org website.. entered my GPG key etc. but with no luck.. I tried to check out particular modules out of the CVS and did not get anywhere.. so I emailed the repository administrator and am awaiting a reply. I hope someone can help me with that here. Anyway.. When I saw the Fedoraproject.org website (for the first time), I had a hard time navigating it finding the right info. So I started tinkering around with CSS and came up with a layout.
I did not know if there is a "test" fedora server it can be uploaded and everyone can see it.. so I uploaded it on my own site.. at.. http://www.hrishikeshballal.net/other/fedora/ ...
Can you please take a look at it and give me some feedback on the what I have so far so I can work on it later this week. As you can imagine all the links etc are broken.. I wanted to create a better layout. I am no artist and I don't know if we have one on this list.. I guess we need a "logo".
I am not sure if anyone else is working on the website / layout,maybe he / she can take some ideas from it. But if you have any suggestions, comments brickbats on it please feel free to reply. Thanks Hrishi
Hrishikesh Ballal wrote:
But if you have any suggestions, comments brickbats on it please feel free to reply.
My first post to the list.
Basically, marketing the Fedora project is a bad idea. Or at least, not an immediate concern. Very few people care about the project. Those that wish to contribute are either part of the project already, or existing Fedora users that have decided to contribute and know where to go.
Fedora - *the distro, not the project* - needs a website. Fedoraproject.org isn't it, cause of the name. fedora.redhat.com could be it, but with completely different content.
A good example of sucessful OSS marketing is Firefox. When you visit mozilla.org or getfirefox.com, what dop you see?
Is the front page taken up by stuff about the mozilla project, and how to contribute to it? Maybe even making no mention that it's a web browser, like fedora.redhat.com talks primarily describes fedora as an 'OSS project' rather than an actual linux distro?
IMHO, the primarily focus of Fedora marketing should be a website that - aimed at users primarily, and developers secondarily
and creates - Attention - Interest - Desire - Action
Think getfedora.org. Joe user doesn't give a damn that 'The Fedora Project is an open source project sponsored by Red Hat and supported by the Fedora community. It is also a proving ground for new technology that may eventually make its way into Red Hat products. It is not a supported product of Red Hat, Inc.'
What they do care about is this:
- What is Fedora? - Why do they want it? - Where can they get it?
Mike
On Sat, 2005-06-18 at 21:19 +1000, Mike MacCana wrote:
Hrishikesh Ballal wrote:
But if you have any suggestions, comments brickbats on it please feel free to reply.
My first post to the list.
Basically, marketing the Fedora project is a bad idea. Or at least, not an immediate concern. Very few people care about the project. Those that wish to contribute are either part of the project already, or existing Fedora users that have decided to contribute and know where to go.
Based on the questions I get from folks about how to contribute, I'm fairly certain you're very wrong. Moreover, for various and sundry reasons we need to make fedoraproject.org more interesting and consistent website. If only b/c the project pages can have much more flexibility than the fedora.redhat.com pages.
A good example of sucessful OSS marketing is Firefox. When you visit mozilla.org or getfirefox.com, what dop you see?
Is the front page taken up by stuff about the mozilla project, and how to contribute to it? Maybe even making no mention that it's a web browser, like fedora.redhat.com talks primarily describes fedora as an 'OSS project' rather than an actual linux distro?
And that's fine - fedora.redhat.com should be about downloading/installing/using and could easily have a link to fedoraproject.org for developer information and additional community info.
Remember - fedora is not just about red hat.
-sv
seth vidal wrote:
On Sat, 2005-06-18 at 21:19 +1000, Mike MacCana wrote:
Hrishikesh Ballal wrote:
But if you have any suggestions, comments brickbats on it please feel free to reply.
My first post to the list.
Basically, marketing the Fedora project is a bad idea. Or at least, not an immediate concern. Very few people care about the project. Those that wish to contribute are either part of the project already, or existing Fedora users that have decided to contribute and know where to go.
Based on the questions I get from folks about how to contribute, I'm fairly certain you're very wrong.
Really? You think more people want to contribute to Fedora than to use it?
Or do you think that more people want to use it, but we should focus on those who want to contribute?
Mike
Hi
Really? You think more people want to contribute to Fedora than to use it?
http://fedora.redhat.com is currently focussed towards end users
Or do you think that more people want to use it, but we should focus on those who want to contribute?
Mike
http://fedoraproject.org is more about contributors and development. Marketing both the project and the platform is important
regards Rahul
Rahul Sundaram wrote:
Hi
Really? You think more people want to contribute to Fedora than to use it?
http://fedora.redhat.com is currently focussed towards end users
Let's look at the opening line of fedora.redhat.com:
"The Fedora Project is an open source project sponsored by Red Hat and supported by the Fedora community. It is also a proving ground for new technology that may eventually make its way into Red Hat products. It is not a supported product of Red Hat, Inc."
So far readers don't know: - That Fedora is a Linux distro, or an Operating System - Why it's good - Where to get it - Where to get help for it
They do know: - That its Open Source - That stuff in it may end up in RHEL - That it is not supported by Red Hat
Given this, are yous sure fedora.redhat.com is currently focused towards end users?
Mike
Mike MacCana wrote:
Rahul Sundaram wrote:
Hi
Really? You think more people want to contribute to Fedora than to use it?
http://fedora.redhat.com is currently focussed towards end users
Let's look at the opening line of fedora.redhat.com:
"The Fedora Project is an open source project sponsored by Red Hat and supported by the Fedora community. It is also a proving ground for new technology that may eventually make its way into Red Hat products. It is not a supported product of Red Hat, Inc."
So far readers don't know:
- That Fedora is a Linux distro, or an Operating System
- Why it's good
- Where to get it
- Where to get help for it
They do know:
- That its Open Source
- That stuff in it may end up in RHEL
- That it is not supported by Red Hat
Given this, are yous sure fedora.redhat.com is currently focused towards end users?
Mike
It is but it just assumes a different level of expertise than a person who doesnt know about computers and operating systems. If you are willing to work on improving that, a prototype design similar to the one proposed for fedoraproject.org would be useful
regards Rahul
"The Fedora Project is an open source project sponsored by Red Hat and supported by the Fedora community. It is also a proving ground for new technology that may eventually make its way into Red Hat products. It is not a supported product of Red Hat, Inc."
So far readers don't know:
- That Fedora is a Linux distro, or an Operating System
- Why it's good
- Where to get it
- Where to get help for it
They do know:
- That its Open Source
- That stuff in it may end up in RHEL
- That it is not supported by Red Hat
Given this, are yous sure fedora.redhat.com is currently focused towards end users?
Pretty positive that we can't change the front page of fedora.redhat.com w/o an act of law. :)
The front page is off limits w/o approval from 7 of 9 rings of red hat's internal hell.
-sv
seth vidal wrote:
"The Fedora Project is an open source project sponsored by Red Hat and supported by the Fedora community. It is also a proving ground for new technology that may eventually make its way into Red Hat products. It is not a supported product of Red Hat, Inc."
So far readers don't know:
- That Fedora is a Linux distro, or an Operating System
- Why it's good
- Where to get it
- Where to get help for it
They do know:
- That its Open Source
- That stuff in it may end up in RHEL
- That it is not supported by Red Hat
Given this, are you sure fedora.redhat.com is currently focused towards end users?
Pretty positive that we can't change the front page of fedora.redhat.com w/o an act of law. :)
The front page is off limits w/o approval from 7 of 9 rings of red hat's internal hell.
I figured as much - I have an internal account and doing my own job can be hard :^).
I propose: getfedora.org or similar for users (based around the idea that there's a much larger audience among people that don't already run Linux than that do).
Making a mock up is simple and I hereby volunteer to do so, provided somebody promises to listen to me and host it somewhere should I manage to convince them.
And fedoraproject.org for developers.
Mike
I propose: getfedora.org or similar for users (based around the idea that there's a much larger audience among people that don't already run Linux than that do).
Making a mock up is simple and I hereby volunteer to do so, provided somebody promises to listen to me and host it somewhere should I manage to convince them.
Make a mockup - but I can't promise anything about necessarily listening. Don't get another domain, please. It's the last thing we need not the least of which is b/c it confuses things futher.
-sv
On Sat, 18 Jun 2005, seth vidal wrote:
Pretty positive that we can't change the front page of fedora.redhat.com w/o an act of law. :)
Naaah, you don't need an act of law. You just need an act of gdk, when he has the time. ;-)
"The Fedora Project is an open source project sponsored by Red Hat and supported by the Fedora community. It is also a proving ground for new technology that may eventually make its way into Red Hat products. It is not a supported product of Red Hat, Inc."
So far readers don't know:
- That Fedora is a Linux distro, or an Operating System
- Why it's good
- Where to get it
- Where to get help for it
They do know:
- That its Open Source
- That stuff in it may end up in RHEL
- That it is not supported by Red Hat
Given this, are yous sure fedora.redhat.com is currently focused towards end users?
I think there's some merit to what Mike says here. We can stand to make it a little clearer why to use Fedora Core The Operating System.
1. WHY IT'S GOOD. Because the distro itself is basically an alpha of RHEL, the most stable Linux distro on Earth, and because the universe of packages around the distro will get bigger and bigger and bigger and constantly more useful.
2. WHERE TO GET IT. A great big GET IT NOW button.
3. WHERE TO GET HELP FOR IT. A great big COMMUNITY FORUMS link.
So I'm okay with a little rework, if someone's got better wordsmithery that I can use.
That said:
* Latest Fedora News will stay.
* When the Foundation is established, we'll need to revisit this question anyway.
* The hard part isn't getting users; it's getting contributors. I think that the marketing group should focus on the second objective as much as, if not more than, the first objective.
--g
_____________________ ____________________________________________ Greg DeKoenigsberg ] [ the future masters of technology will have Community Relations ] [ to be lighthearted and intelligent. the Red Hat ] [ machine easily masters the grim and the ] [ dumb. --mcluhan
On Sun, 19 Jun 2005, Greg DeKoenigsberg wrote:
- WHY IT'S GOOD. Because the distro itself is basically an alpha of
RHEL, the most stable Linux distro on Earth, and because the universe of packages around the distro will get bigger and bigger and bigger and constantly more useful.
Careful. The last thing we want, if we actually want any users, is to call it an alpha. Wade through your average LUG's mailing list some time and look at all the comments / perceptions of Fedora by non-Fedora users. A lot won't even try it because they view it as an alpha of RHEL, and not as what it actually is - a quick-moving, but still bugfixed / qa'ed distro.
later, chris
On Sun, 2005-06-19 at 06:54 -0400, Greg DeKoenigsberg wrote:
- The hard part isn't getting users; it's getting contributors. I think
that the marketing group should focus on the second objective as much as, if not more than, the first objective.
Maybe we need to seriously discuss the creation or tasking of developer relations to some one at this point, and start developing a sane strategy.
Jack
On Sat, 2005-06-18 at 22:25 +1000, Mike MacCana wrote:
Based on the questions I get from folks about how to contribute, I'm fairly certain you're very wrong.
Really? You think more people want to contribute to Fedora than to use it?
Yes, they do.
A bad idea from an internal perspective, maybe, but never from a community perspective. The more populous we become, the more we'll inject fear into the RH sales droids. But remember, we're not here to /compete/ with their sales cuts
http://lwn.net/Articles/83360/ for reference
So yes, by the time we have the famous Fedora Foundation, we better have a strong marketing arm ready to go.
On Sun, Jun 19, 2005 at 12:46:24PM +1000, Colin Charles wrote:
So yes, by the time we have the famous Fedora Foundation, we better have a strong marketing arm ready to go.
I think we need to strongly consider if this is supposed to be *marketing*, or *promotion*.
On Sat, 2005-06-18 at 23:22 -0400, Matthew Miller wrote:
On Sun, Jun 19, 2005 at 12:46:24PM +1000, Colin Charles wrote:
So yes, by the time we have the famous Fedora Foundation, we better have a strong marketing arm ready to go.
I think we need to strongly consider if this is supposed to be *marketing*, or *promotion*.
What's the distinction you're trying to make there?
I think of marketing AS promotion so, I'm a bit confused.
-sv
On Sun, Jun 19, 2005 at 02:37:40AM -0400, seth vidal wrote:
I think we need to strongly consider if this is supposed to be *marketing*, or *promotion*.
What's the distinction you're trying to make there? I think of marketing AS promotion so, I'm a bit confused.
The difference is in focus and scope.
Promotion, we make a bunch of "Get Fedora Now" web buttons and maybe some balloons and t-shirts, and have some parties and see who shows up.
If we're marketing, we start with, okay, there's this set of people who make up a definable demographic of some sort (geographic, or an industry or application, or various other ways to slice it) and say "Okay, what can we do to make Fedora appeal to the people that make up this market?" That might involve promotion in a "language" that speaks to whoever the target is -- and it also includes things like "if we want to appeal to market XYZ, we should make sure Fedora addessess function ABC."
On 6/19/05, Matthew Miller mattdm@mattdm.org wrote:
If we're marketing, we start with, okay, there's this set of people who make up a definable demographic of some sort (geographic, or an industry or application, or various other ways to slice it) and say "Okay, what can we do to make Fedora appeal to the people that make up this market?" That might involve promotion in a "language" that speaks to whoever the target is -- and it also includes things like "if we want to appeal to market XYZ, we should make sure Fedora addessess function ABC."
The market for fedora... are people in the community who want to be more than users.. people who want to contribute. I really don't think fedora as a distribution is aimed at any particular userbase. I don't think fedora should make any strong claims to being a system for the casual users or for server admins or any other "target" group of users.
-jef
On Sun, 2005-06-19 at 12:18 -0400, Jeff Spaleta wrote:
On 6/19/05, Matthew Miller mattdm@mattdm.org wrote:
If we're marketing, we start with, okay, there's this set of people who make up a definable demographic of some sort (geographic, or an industry or application, or various other ways to slice it) and say "Okay, what can we do to make Fedora appeal to the people that make up this market?" That might involve promotion in a "language" that speaks to whoever the target is -- and it also includes things like "if we want to appeal to market XYZ, we should make sure Fedora addessess function ABC."
The market for fedora... are people in the community who want to be more than users.. people who want to contribute. I really don't think fedora as a distribution is aimed at any particular userbase. I don't think fedora should make any strong claims to being a system for the casual users or for server admins or any other "target" group of users.
Is there a distinction to be made as to Fedora user "Verticals" -- i.e. categories of users -- and Fedora Marketing/Development participants? Is it about defining AUDIENCE, again? -Sam
-jef
-- Fedora-marketing-list mailing list Fedora-marketing-list@redhat.com http://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/fedora-marketing-list
On Sun, 2005-06-19 at 12:18 -0400, Jeff Spaleta wrote:
On 6/19/05, Matthew Miller mattdm@mattdm.org wrote:
If we're marketing, we start with, okay, there's this set of people who make up a definable demographic of some sort (geographic, or an industry or application, or various other ways to slice it) and say "Okay, what can we do to make Fedora appeal to the people that make up this market?" That might involve promotion in a "language" that speaks to whoever the target is -- and it also includes things like "if we want to appeal to market XYZ, we should make sure Fedora addessess function ABC."
The market for fedora... are people in the community who want to be more than users.. people who want to contribute.
I disagree. And I think more people feel like contributing to successful products - ie, ones with lots of users.
Most contributors got into Linux as users.
Mike
On 6/20/05, Mike MacCana mikem@cyber.com.au wrote:
I disagree. And I think more people feel like contributing to successful products - ie, ones with lots of users.
I think fedora has lots of users. Should I go get stats as to the number of completed downloads from the torrent?
Most contributors got into Linux as users.
Which came first the contributor or the user....
I still don't think I've seen you define which segment of the userbase you are trying to target...specifically. I am personally wary of actively encourage novice linux users to use fedora, because of the rate of change and leading edge nature of the distribution. I'd rather underpromise than overpromise with any expectation to the experience novice users are going to have. I do not think fedora is the best choice for every novice linux users on the planet and I don't we to see any aggressive campaign to try to accomplish that very large scale migration.
-jef
On Tue, 2005-06-21 at 08:14 -0400, Jeff Spaleta wrote:
On 6/20/05, Mike MacCana mikem@cyber.com.au wrote:
I disagree. And I think more people feel like contributing to successful products - ie, ones with lots of users.
I think fedora has lots of users.
Not when compared to say, MacOS, or Windows.
I still don't think I've seen you define which segment of the userbase you are trying to target...specifically.
The Linux curious. Typically described Windows 'power users', for which Fedora would be quite appropriate - easier than most other Linux distros, but still requiring some technical skill.
Mik
On 6/22/05, Mike MacCana mikem@cyber.com.au wrote:
I think fedora has lots of users.
Not when compared to say, MacOS, or Windows.
I am absolutely okay with fedora having less users than MacOS and Windows, Nor do i think Fedora with its rate of change and leading edge focus is it a good fit for a vast majority of users of those other operating systems. Talking about fedora in this as a competition for number of users compared to any other operating system whether it be a linux distribution or not.. is absolutely the wrong way to go about it.
The Linux curious. Typically described Windows 'power users', for which Fedora would be quite appropriate - easier than most other Linux distros, but still requiring some technical skill.
I think the linux curious have enough information to read on the main website. I don't think they need aggressive encouragement.
-jef
On Wed, 2005-06-22 at 07:49 -0400, Jeff Spaleta wrote:
On 6/22/05, Mike MacCana mikem@cyber.com.au wrote:
I think fedora has lots of users.
Not when compared to say, MacOS, or Windows.
I am absolutely okay with fedora having less users than MacOS and Windows, Nor do i think Fedora with its rate of change and leading edge focus is it a good fit for a vast majority of users of those other operating systems.
Neither do I, so I don't know why you said that.
I was talking about...
The Linux curious. Typically described Windows 'power users', for which Fedora would be quite appropriate - easier than most other Linux distros, but still requiring some technical skill.
I think the linux curious have enough information to read on the main website. I don't think they need aggressive encouragement.
You think most Linux curious want:
a) an open source project that produces technologies which may be used by RHEL and aren't supported by RHEL? b) a Linux distribution that's good?
If it's a, then the main website is inadequate.
Mike
On 6/22/05, Mike MacCana mikem@cyber.com.au wrote:
You think most Linux curious want:
I make no claim as to what 'most' linux curious want. And i think trying to pander to any target group, you run the very real risk of misleading them and giving them a colored view of things. Or if you misjudge exactly what the target group wants... driving them away. As soon as you start trying to lead people by the nose and highlight exactly the information you think is most interesting to that target group.. you run the very real risk of de-emphasizing information you consider poor features or disadvantages. This is not what i want to see. I do not want to see people walk into this community with expectations that are skewed by aggressive focused marketing. I want people to have a fair impression as to what to expect. What is bad and what is good about the distro is highly subjective.. and frankly one man's attractive feature is another person's bad feature. I'd rather avoid the whole issue of trying to highlight the good features. But If you must ask the very qualitative question "what is good" then i want to see the question "what is bad" being answered at the same time. I am very wary of evangelizing fedora as a distribution for ANY target group to flock to. I'd much rather underpromise than overpromise. Low expectations brings its own rewards over time in a way that high expectations do not.
I really don't think fedora's problem right now is making sure we have an influx of users. I'm pretty confident in the download numbers and the mirror activity and the fedora-list and fedoraforumindicate the fedora userbase has reached a critical mass.
a) an open source project that produces technologies which may be used by RHEL and aren't supported by RHEL? b) a Linux distribution that's good?
If it's a, then the main website is inadequate.
I'm not arguing that that the website is adequate. But I'm not thrilled by the idea of aggressive marketting meant to attract new users by highlighting only the features we think are attractive. I would MUCH rather have a user read about fedora and feel its not the right solution for them, then to have them read about fedora and be convinced its the best thing in the world, then try it out and find the experience doesn't live up to expectations.
I personally think getting a livecd out into the hands of potential users is the best way forward to generate "attention interest and desire" I think the website should focus on how to take "action". A website that tries to inspire interest.. runs the very real risk of misleading users. A livecd they can try out.. doesn't make promises it can't live up to.
-jef
On Wed, 22 Jun 2005, Jeff Spaleta wrote:
I really don't think fedora's problem right now is making sure we have an influx of users. I'm pretty confident in the download numbers and the mirror activity and the fedora-list and fedoraforumindicate the fedora userbase has reached a critical mass.
+1
I personally think getting a livecd out into the hands of potential users is the best way forward to generate "attention interest and desire" I think the website should focus on how to take "action". A website that tries to inspire interest.. runs the very real risk of misleading users. A livecd they can try out.. doesn't make promises it can't live up to.
+1
--g
_____________________ ____________________________________________ Greg DeKoenigsberg ] [ the future masters of technology will have Community Relations ] [ to be lighthearted and intelligent. the Red Hat ] [ machine easily masters the grim and the ] [ dumb. --mcluhan
On Wed, 2005-06-22 at 23:30 -0400, Jeff Spaleta wrote:
On 6/22/05, Mike MacCana mikem@cyber.com.au wrote:
You think most Linux curious want: (rest of sentence chopped)
I make no claim as to what 'most' linux curious want.
I know. That was the start of a question that you answered later on.
And i think trying to pander to any target group, you run the very real risk of misleading them and giving them a colored view of things.
Er, why? Why does targeting (or 'pandering to') an audience mean you will likely mislead them more or less than if you scatter your message to the universe?
And why is it that nobody else, in the entire history or marketing theory, has ever discovered this?
Or if you misjudge exactly what the target group wants... driving them away.
Yeah, but if you misjudge what the untargeted universe wants, you'll drive them away too. Scattering bombing everyone with generic Fedora is good messages won't achieve anything. Marketing 101.
I do not want to see people walk into this community with expectations that are skewed by aggressive focused marketing. I want people to have a fair impression as to what to expect.
The fairness of their impression has nothing to do with whether the message is targeted towards them. It has to do with us being honest with users, something which I share your views about.
I'd rather avoid the whole issue of trying to highlight the good features.
Then you'd rather avoid marketing.
But If you must ask the very qualitative question "what is good" then i want to see the question "what is bad" being answered at the same time.
Damn straight.
I am very wary of evangelizing fedora as a distribution for ANY target group to flock to.
The Linux curious will try a Linux distro. Because they want to.
Chances are, with Gentoo's screaming 'watching text scroll by makes me a Linux expert' zealots and Debian's 'troll angrily and loudly on every Fedora story on Slashdot' approach, it'll be either Debian or Gentoo.
Do you think that technically minded user, who's nevertheless used to Windows, would be happier with a distro that can probe his monitor, or one that'll ask him for 'modelines', when he doesn't know what they are?
I would MUCH rather have a user read about fedora and feel its not the right solution for them
Totally agreed about being honest. Look at say, Codeweavers Crossover marketing. Their honesty about what Crossover can and can't do actually makes them look better.
I personally think getting a livecd out into the hands of potential users is the best way forward to generate "attention interest and desire"
Yep, but they need to be interested enough to get the CD.
I think the website should focus on how to take "action".
Yeah you could call it...getfedora.org! Let them know what the CD (and the real distro) can do, and what it can't as well.
A website that tries to inspire interest..
It's in order. I.e., the website gets the user attention to make them try out the CD.
Mike
On 6/24/05, Mike MacCana mikem@cyber.com.au wrote:
Er, why? Why does targeting (or 'pandering to') an audience mean you will likely mislead them more or less than if you scatter your message to the universe?
Because I don't think fedora or any other distribution is the obvious choice for any particular group of people or individual person. Firefox, openoffice, codeweavers... these items exist in a near vacuum of choice and by their very nature they have a clear directive to market towards existing windows users. I'm not sure fedora has such a clear directive nor is fedora positioned to be the "one true alternative" in the space where its operating.
Linux distributions are like breeds of dogs. How exactly do you market one breed of dog compared to another breed of dog successfully to the casual dog buyer? The casual dog buyer, who doesn't really know the maintainence issues and temperament of each breed. And they only experience with pet ownership previous was a gerbil. You make a mistake and you pair a dog with an owner that is a poor match.. and it can end tragically. Popularity of a breed drives initial interest, but it also leads to a high rate of abadonment.
http://www.petsandmore.ca/Vbreedinfo.html
I want to make sure we don't herd people to the answers we think they want, simply because we have a vested interest in this one breed. I'd rather help people to the linux distribution that works best for them. If its not fedora.... I am perfectly okay with that. I'd rather see us help guide the linux courious into asking the right questions and making the right choices for themselves. If that means mepis or ubuntu or mandrake or knoppix or even fedora... great!
Then you'd rather avoid marketing.
There might be a deep truth to that. I'm intimately aware that I might be a poor fit for this part of the project. If my ideas are contrary to the momentum and direction of activities, I'll gladly fade into the background in this part of the overall fedora project effort and let others play a strongly role.
The Linux curious will try a Linux distro. Because they want to.
Indeed. My issues are more about the tone of the engagement than the effort to engage. I'm wary of a goal that is narrowly defined to be "Get people interested in Fedora" I would be much happier if the goal was "Get people interested in trying linux, including Fedora"
Chances are, with Gentoo's screaming 'watching text scroll by makes me a Linux expert' zealots and Debian's 'troll angrily and loudly on every Fedora story on Slashdot' approach, it'll be either Debian or Gentoo.
Do you think that technically minded user, who's nevertheless used to Windows, would be happier with a distro that can probe his monitor, or one that'll ask him for 'modelines', when he doesn't know what they are?
This is what I am very wary of. I do not believe its in the linux community's best interest to draw direct comparisons between this distro versus any other. "You're cocker-spaniel is totally not as good for a first time dog owner as my golden retriever." I do not believe that its approprate to imply that Fedora is superior to Gentoo or to Debian. I want to make sure that we focus on having people ask questions and draw their own conclusions about what is valuable to them. Fedora should be the Progressive Car Insurance Company of the linux distributions. If a linux 'competitor' is a better fit for you... great... glad to have helped you find a linux solution that works best for you.
I think the website should focus on how to take "action".
Yeah you could call it...getfedora.org! Let them know what the CD (and the real distro) can do, and what it can't as well.
I have no feelings about yet another domain name. My comments are directed at the tone and the content of whatever website is going to be used to interact with potential fedora users.
On Fri, Jun 24, 2005 at 10:21:36AM -0400, Jeff Spaleta wrote:
Then you'd rather avoid marketing.
There might be a deep truth to that. I'm intimately aware that I might be a poor fit for this part of the project. If my ideas are contrary to the momentum and direction of activities, I'll gladly fade into the background in this part of the overall fedora project effort and let others play a strongly role.
Maybe. On the other hand, I sense a resistance to *marketing* Fedora at all -- promote the technology and we have, be straighforward about what doesn't really work, and don't particulary *worry* about *making* Fedora appeal to anyone. I'm not sure that's the best approach, but I strongly feel that it's a valid voice and shouldn't just fade into the background.
Indeed. My issues are more about the tone of the engagement than the effort to engage. I'm wary of a goal that is narrowly defined to be "Get people interested in Fedora" I would be much happier if the goal was "Get people interested in trying linux, including Fedora"
This is a whole different thing. :) How about "Get people interested in trying Linux, *via* Fedora, because that's what we can do anything about?"
I don't think this and more targetted marketing are necessarily exclusive.
On Fri, Jun 24, 2005 at 11:44:51AM -0400, Matthew Miller wrote:
I don't think this and more targetted marketing are necessarily exclusive.
That's "more-targetted marketing", not "more targetted-marketing". :)
On Fri, 2005-06-24 at 11:58 -0400, Matthew Miller wrote:
On Fri, Jun 24, 2005 at 11:44:51AM -0400, Matthew Miller wrote:
I don't think this and more targetted marketing are necessarily exclusive.
That's "more-targetted marketing", not "more targetted-marketing". :)
direct-to-customer marketing?
hey, I know some people who send me email every night about v!agr@, c1al!5 and home m0.rtg4ge5
maybe I could ask them to help us.
:)
-sv
On Fri, Jun 24, 2005 at 12:11:06PM -0400, seth vidal wrote:
That's "more-targetted marketing", not "more targetted-marketing". :)
direct-to-customer marketing? hey, I know some people who send me email every night about v!agr@, c1al!5 and home m0.rtg4ge5 maybe I could ask them to help us. :)
Heh. Okay, honest, I'm not just tryin' to throw around buzzwords! I have a point!
On 6/24/05, Matthew Miller mattdm@mattdm.org wrote:
This is a whole different thing. :) How about "Get people interested in trying Linux, *via* Fedora, because that's what we can do anything about?"
I don't think this and more targetted marketing are necessarily exclusive.
I'm pretty sure i didn't mean to imply my thoughts are mutually exclusive with taking aim at certain groups. I just want to make sure the message is thought provoking instead of encouraging impulse decisions. To sum up my concerns into a simple headlines. I want to avoid blurbs like: "Fedora Linux is great! Try it now!" and i would instead prefer more open ended tone: "Is Fedora Linux right for you? Find out now!"
Not to nitpick the getfirefox.com example, but i don't think the tone of the opening paragraph is appropriate for a linux distribution. <quote> the wait is over. Firefox empowers you to browse faster, more safely and more efficiently than with any other browser. Join more than 64 million others and make the switch today — Firefox imports your Favorites, settings and other information, so you have nothing to lose. </quote> I don't think its appropriate to use the popularity of the distribution as a primary reason to encourage new users to use it. I don't think its appropriate to make bold claims as to fedora's ability to serve a new user better than other choices.
The codeweaver's example is much better in terms of tone. But really.. if there were any other wine based product out there it could say nearly the same thing. There's nothing in what codeweaver's intro that even implies there are other choices in the space. I don't think thats good enough in terms of being upfront at the distribution level. We know there are other choices, we know those other choices might fit better for a particular person if the person takes the time to try out more than just fedora, and I think we need to be honest about that and make sure the tone of the site re-enforces the idea of informed choice as the ideal choice.
openoffice.org's marketting pieces have some high points, certainly in terms of the formats and quality of their press material. The four page pdf and the flash intro are well done. But their peices still has a reliance of superlative language that i think is problematic when applied to the larger issue of linux distribution choice
ubuntu's introduction on the other hand... is strikingly not about the specific feature of the distribution at all. http://www.ubuntulinux.org/ . The first few paragraphs are about the ideals and commitments of the development model. Its a well worded description of how the project objectives relate to user expectation. Here's what the page says about desktop users. "Ubuntu is suitable for both desktop and server use." Suitable... the distribution is suitable. No effort to promise the best experience..but a promise for a suitable one. That's an underpromise, and the power of low expectations at work.
-jef
On Fri, Jun 24, 2005 at 01:04:38PM -0400, Jeff Spaleta wrote:
This is a whole different thing. :) How about "Get people interested in trying Linux, *via* Fedora, because that's what we can do anything about?" I don't think this and more targetted marketing are necessarily exclusive.
I'm pretty sure i didn't mean to imply my thoughts are mutually exclusive with taking aim at certain groups. I just want to make sure the message is thought provoking instead of encouraging impulse decisions. To sum up my concerns into a simple headlines. I want to avoid blurbs like: "Fedora Linux is great! Try it now!" and i would instead prefer more open ended tone: "Is Fedora Linux right for you? Find out now!"
Indeed -- and this actually goes hand-in-hand with actually focusing on what we want to accomplish with the project -- rather than just the dropping-leaflets-from-30000-ft approach.
On Fri, 24 Jun 2005, Jeff Spaleta wrote:
On 6/24/05, Mike MacCana mikem@cyber.com.au wrote:
Er, why? Why does targeting (or 'pandering to') an audience mean you will likely mislead them more or less than if you scatter your message to the universe?
Because I don't think fedora or any other distribution is the obvious choice for any particular group of people or individual person.
I disagree. There are obvious niches which specific distros suit quite well (or don't fit at all, as the case may be). If you're wanting to work with SELinux, you're going to have much more success with Fedora than with SUSE Professional. If you want to recompile your system from scratch fortnightly, you're going to be much happier with Gentoo than with Fedora. And on, and on, and on.
I don't think marketing Fedora should be an all-your-Linuxen-are-Fedora-or-die misinformation campaign, but I do think there's a role for and a value to positive marketing of Fedora. I think I've mentioned it before, but for one example think about the perception of Fedora amongst J. Random Linux users at your local LUG (assuming you're a LUGger). If they're like the users at any of the LUGs I keep in touch with, about 80% of them will have major misconceptions about what Fedora is or isn't, and that's something marketing can address. Marketing can be about informing without being about misleading....
later, chris
On 6/24/05, Chris Ricker kaboom@oobleck.net wrote:
I disagree. There are obvious niches which specific distros suit quite well (or don't fit at all, as the case may be). If you're wanting to work with SELinux, you're going to have much more success with Fedora than with SUSE Professional. If you want to recompile your system from scratch fortnightly, you're going to be much happier with Gentoo than with Fedora. And on, and on, and on.
I see your point, and I raise you a point of semantics. I think its very difficult to "know" what an easily labelled group of people are interested in aggregate. That's my point. Lumping more than 3 novice linux users together and saying they are looking at linux because of X feature or technology, is a doomed endeavor. I am wary of trying to guess as to what people who are looking at Fedora are really interested in in terms of "leading edge" technology. Example "Wanting to work with SELinux" is probably not the question the uninformed are really thinking about... do they even know what SELinux is? Its more like users who are interested in "security" in a general sense might get a kick out of Fedora because of the SELinux integration effort.
Do we need to do a better job of describing some of the key features and technical objectives for Core.. surely. But I don't want to skew the discussion with pre-conceived ideas as to what the "target" audience as broad as "linux curious" is interested in.
If they're like the users at any of the LUGs I keep in touch with, about 80% of them will have major misconceptions about what Fedora is or isn't, and that's something marketing can address. Marketing can be about informing without being about misleading....
I didn't say it couldn't be.. I just want to be on guard against it.
Here's a challenge for you, can you produce a rough draft of a 4 page pdf aimed at LUGers, that aims to address specific misconceptions in the LUG environments you have personally been associated with. Once we have a working draft to discuss we can get feedback from other LUGs. something similar to the openoffice 4 page brocure maybe: http://www.openoffice.org/product/docs/OOoFlyer11s.pdf
-jef
On Fri, Jun 24, 2005 at 01:37:53PM -0400, Jeff Spaleta wrote:
I think its very difficult to "know" what an easily labelled group of people are interested in aggregate. That's my point. Lumping more than 3 novice linux users together and saying they are looking at linux because of X feature or technology, is a doomed endeavor. I am wary of
I think that's because taking three users and lumping them together is going about it backwards. Instead, look at three people who *are* lumped together in some way already. Probably by some better defining factor than "novice linux users".
On 6/24/05, Matthew Miller mattdm@mattdm.org wrote:
I think that's because taking three users and lumping them together is going about it backwards. Instead, look at three people who *are* lumped together in some way already. Probably by some better defining factor than "novice linux users".
I have no suggestions on how to do that effectively. Chris's comments about LUGers on the other hand are arguable less vague and less speculative in nature.
-jef
On Fri, 24 Jun 2005, Jeff Spaleta wrote:
On 6/24/05, Chris Ricker kaboom@oobleck.net wrote: I see your point, and I raise you a point of semantics. I think its very difficult to "know" what an easily labelled group of people are interested in aggregate. That's my point. Lumping more than 3 novice linux users together and saying they are looking at linux because of X feature or technology, is a doomed endeavor.
That's the part I disagree with. There are obvious distinguishing factors between the distros which orient towards end-user desktops. Have a decision tree, find out what matters to the person, and go.
"Need box set purchasable at your favorite local book store complete with printed books, and DVDs and CDs"? SUSE Pro is that way.... (and see, I even managed to avoid snide comments about SUSE's, err, lack of quality control. Positive information, not negative comparisons! ;-)
"Want to try new NSA-developed security features which potentially prevent viruses and worms?" Fedora is this way....
...
The point being: there aren't many distros in the space Fedora is in. Of the ones there are, there's enough distinguishing about them to steer novice users appropriately (and if there weren't enough distinguishing them, that to me would argue that some of those distros should become extinct)....
Its more like users who are interested in "security" in a general sense might get a kick out of Fedora because of the SELinux integration effort.
This is actually a good point, but one I take a bit differently than you. The biggest distinguisher between Fedora and the other distros in terms of what they provide to a potential customer in the same space, at least to me, is technology (there are certainly others, but that's the key one IMO). Fedora focuses much more on leading the technology and on developing and integrating cool, useful new features. That's true all over the space, not just in the security arena. GFS, Xen, free full Java stack, etc. So, the question is really: how do you market new technology to someone who has no idea what you're talking about? See below for one approach for one target group
Here's a challenge for you, can you produce a rough draft of a 4 page pdf aimed at LUGers, that aims to address specific misconceptions in the LUG environments you have personally been associated with. Once we have a working draft to discuss we can get feedback from other LUGs. something similar to the openoffice 4 page brocure maybe: http://www.openoffice.org/product/docs/OOoFlyer11s.pdf
And that, to me, would be of little value. I can't think of a time I've ever seen a flyer distributed at a LUG, other than ones produced by the LUG itself promoting LUG events like barbecues or installfests (and man, those mid-90s ALE ones sure did get just a little bit out of hand! ;-)
One thing I see as being more useful for LUGs is pre-packaged presentation material for speakers. There's a lot of cool technology in Fedora that's perfect for 90-minute LUG presentations: Xen overview + demo, clustering, SELinux, LVM, etc. And LUGs usually seem to struggle for monthly presenters. Something like a talk outline + a few canned slides available to LUG presenters would help there 'cause preparing talks sucks. I'd volunteer more if I knew, hey I can go to fedora and get all the slides and a basic outline already, and then I just have to flesh them out a bit. Have the little Fedora logo (oh wait a minute, we don't have one yet ;-) on the slides, pass out live DVDs so people can play along, and let the technology and the presenter's descriptions of Fedora in the Q&A do the selling of the tech and the re-educating about Fedora....
later, chris
On 6/25/05, Chris Ricker kaboom@oobleck.net wrote:
And that, to me, would be of little value. I can't think of a time I've ever seen a flyer distributed at a LUG, other than ones produced by the LUG itself promoting LUG events like barbecues or installfests (and man, those mid-90s ALE ones sure did get just a little bit out of hand! ;-)
One thing I see as being more useful for LUGs is pre-packaged presentation material for speakers.
We have to start somewhere.... if you want to start with a draft of a presentation.. fine. I just want a draft of something as a starting point that is meant to address exactly the misinterpretations you see in the specific LUG populations around you. Create a draft, present the draft for peer review, include a summary of the specific misinterpreatations you are trying to address with the draft material.
-jef
On Fri, 2005-06-24 at 12:57 -0400, Chris Ricker wrote:
one example think about the perception of Fedora amongst J. Random Linux users at your local LUG (assuming you're a LUGger). If they're like the users at any of the LUGs I keep in touch with, about 80% of them will have major misconceptions about what Fedora is or isn't, and that's something marketing can address. Marketing can be about informing without being about misleading....
Damn good point.
Mike
On Fri, 2005-06-24 at 10:21 -0400, Jeff Spaleta wrote:
On 6/24/05, Mike MacCana mikem@cyber.com.au wrote:
Er, why? Why does targeting (or 'pandering to') an audience mean you will likely mislead them more or less than if you scatter your message to the universe?
Because I don't think fedora or any other distribution is the obvious choice for any particular group of people or individual person. Firefox, openoffice, codeweavers... these items exist in a near vacuum of choice and by their very nature they have a clear directive to market towards existing windows users. I'm not sure fedora has such a clear directive nor is fedora positioned to be the "one true alternative" in the space where its operating.
I don't think it's the 'one true alternative either'. I think it's one of about three.
End user focused Linux distros are far and few between.
How exactly do you market one breed of dog compared to another breed of dog successfully to the casual dog buyer?
You find out that user's wants and desires, and find a breed of dog that matches.
Selling everyone German shepherds is a dumb idea. Selling them to people looking for police dogs makes a great deal more sense.
I'd rather see us help guide the linux courious into asking the right questions and making the right choices for themselves. If that means mepis or ubuntu or mandrake or knoppix or even fedora... great!
Same here. But I want Fedora to be one of the things they try.
Currently fedora.redhat.com doesn't market Fedora in any way, shape of form. In fact, it probably does the opposite, by focusing more on what it isn't than what it is.
Do you think that technically minded user, who's nevertheless used to Windows, would be happier with a distro that can probe his monitor, or one that'll ask him for 'modelines', when he doesn't know what they are?
This is what I am very wary of. I do not believe its in the linux community's best interest to draw direct comparisons between this distro versus any other. "You're cocker-spaniel is totally not as good for a first time dog owner as my golden retriever."
Why not? First time down owners require a dog that doesn't mess the house, or require too much maintenance, or whatever. Marketing a dog breed that reflects those needs is simple logic.
I want to make sure that we focus on having people ask questions
That sounds an awful lot like you want to identify a market Jeff ;^)
and draw their own conclusions about what is valuable to them.
Sure - let them know there's other Linux distros. I actually think it'd be good to encourage our audience to try other distros that reflect their needs - say, Ubuntu and NLD for Linux newcomers - themselves. And let them make up their own mind.
But provide the info that makes sure they're aware that Fedora will meet their needs. That it works, has testing, an isn't a beta. That it's got a simple install process, a good set of modern graphical config tools, modern, carefully selected OSS apps, a common look and feel, etc. People who appreciate such things can then know Fedora provides them.
And hence, the user wins.
Mike
On Sat, 2005-06-25 at 12:16 +1000, Mike MacCana wrote:
On Fri, 2005-06-24 at 10:21 -0400, Jeff Spaleta wrote:
On 6/24/05, Mike MacCana mikem@cyber.com.au wrote:
Er, why? Why does targeting (or 'pandering to') an audience mean you will likely mislead them more or less than if you scatter your message to the universe?
Because I don't think fedora or any other distribution is the obvious choice for any particular group of people or individual person. Firefox, openoffice, codeweavers... these items exist in a near vacuum of choice and by their very nature they have a clear directive to market towards existing windows users. I'm not sure fedora has such a clear directive nor is fedora positioned to be the "one true alternative" in the space where its operating.
I don't think it's the 'one true alternative either'. I think it's one of about three.
End user focused Linux distros are far and few between.
How exactly do you market one breed of dog compared to another breed of dog successfully to the casual dog buyer?
You find out that user's wants and desires, and find a breed of dog that matches.
Selling everyone German shepherds is a dumb idea. Selling them to people looking for police dogs makes a great deal more sense.
I'd rather see us help guide the linux courious into asking the right questions and making the right choices for themselves. If that means mepis or ubuntu or mandrake or knoppix or even fedora... great!
Same here. But I want Fedora to be one of the things they try.
Currently fedora.redhat.com doesn't market Fedora in any way, shape of form. In fact, it probably does the opposite, by focusing more on what it isn't than what it is.
Do you think that technically minded user, who's nevertheless used to Windows, would be happier with a distro that can probe his monitor, or one that'll ask him for 'modelines', when he doesn't know what they are?
This is what I am very wary of. I do not believe its in the linux community's best interest to draw direct comparisons between this distro versus any other. "You're cocker-spaniel is totally not as good for a first time dog owner as my golden retriever."
Why not? First time down owners require a dog that doesn't mess the house, or require too much maintenance, or whatever. Marketing a dog breed that reflects those needs is simple logic.
I want to make sure that we focus on having people ask questions
That sounds an awful lot like you want to identify a market Jeff ;^)
and draw their own conclusions about what is valuable to them.
Sure - let them know there's other Linux distros. I actually think it'd be good to encourage our audience to try other distros that reflect their needs - say, Ubuntu and NLD for Linux newcomers - themselves. And let them make up their own mind.
But provide the info that makes sure they're aware that Fedora will meet their needs. That it works, has testing, an isn't a beta. That it's got a simple install process, a good set of modern graphical config tools, modern, carefully selected OSS apps, a common look and feel, etc. People who appreciate such things can then know Fedora provides them.
And hence, the user wins.
Mike
-- Fedora-marketing-list mailing list Fedora-marketing-list@redhat.com http://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/fedora-marketing-list
I know i will be ostracized for this, but you guys are bantering in here about crap and nothing is being done. If you would like to participate in a mambo that I set up, then cool, hit here: http://fedorasolved.com/fccp
but the rest of this 'mailing list jerk off crap' is a waste of time.
I want to help, and I want to hit it and do it. By the time some 'committee' ok's anything it's already down the road and lost. then 'net is *NOW*, and you are wasting time with semantics and pissing contests.
take care...I am unsubscribing....still love you all, heheh. see ya around, it's a small world.
=G
On Sun, 2005-06-19 at 12:46 +1000, Colin Charles wrote:
On Sat, 2005-06-18 at 22:25 +1000, Mike MacCana wrote:
Based on the questions I get from folks about how to contribute, I'm fairly certain you're very wrong.
Really? You think more people want to contribute to Fedora than to use it?
Yes, they do.
!!!
Could you please explain how?
Do you not believe that there are users who don't contribute? Do you think there are people who contribute but somehow don't use?
Mike
On Mon, 2005-06-20 at 22:47 +1000, Mike MacCana wrote:
Based on the questions I get from folks about how to contribute,
I'm
fairly certain you're very wrong.
Really? You think more people want to contribute to Fedora than to
use
it?
Yes, they do.
!!!
Could you please explain how?
Do you not believe that there are users who don't contribute?
Yes, because:
a) we didn't have a contributory process b) they don't know how to contribute c) they feel powerless without being @redhat.com d) even when they overcome (c), some twat @redhat.com will show them that they're powerless e) etc...
So definitely, we've got a lot of people wanting to contribute, but they don't know how, or what to do. Then there's the issue of COMMUNICATION. It just doesn't happen. Well, it's been improving steadily
If joe@redhat was designing cool_new_fubar_app, and told the community of his intentions, bar@community might find interest in helping code the app, or support it along the way. A classic new example of how all this community thing works is how PUP is being developed: intention, publicity, public CVS, friendly Paul, etc.
An example of this /not/ working is suddenly springing out new features, etc. and I'm not going to list examples here, no.
Do you think there are people who contribute but somehow don't use?
That too. People use Windows during the day, and at night, might have 2 hours to work with Fedora checking their mail. They may contribute packages during that short span of time
Or what about good design folk. They'd use a Mac, but still contribute to funky Fedora-ness (web, etc.)
And I'm sure there are people contributing in many soft ways not using Fedora. Heck, my main work machine is dual-booting FreeBSD and Fedora, because hey ho, day job *requires* FreeBSD. Am I not a fedora contributor?
Colin Charles wrote:
a) we didn't have a contributory process b) they don't know how to contribute c) they feel powerless without being @redhat.com d) even when they overcome (c), some twat @redhat.com will show them that they're powerless e) etc...
1st post to this list and piggy-backing on the above. A bit of user experience ;-)
I am a sysadmin by day, look after a few hundred servers running anything from Windows to Novell, passing by RHEL. Put me in the technically aware user base.
I use Fedora for everything on the home network, used it from Severn onwards. Started with RH 5 or 6, cannot recall. I find it difficult to find some answers to my questions as a user but it's ok, i do find answers eventually, it's part of my job - like a 2nd nature. As a user I would like a *central* repository of info - there are too many domains/websites out there.
As a poweruser, I would like to contribute but
1. I do not have a lot of time on my hands 2. I am not a developper/coder/programmer or whatever you want to call it 3. Don't really know where to start, who to ask, what to do etc.
I am known as a linux advocate within my company, 90% is made out of developpers, even created a LUG there. Most of these guys have never heard of Fedora, they still recall the days of RH 6 to 9. I have a box running Fedora Core on my desk, I show it to them, they grab some CDs now and then or join the torrent at home. Sometimes a punter come to me and ask what there is on the market, what I would recommend. I wish there was a LiveCD to give them, I wish I knew how to make one but i don't have the skills/time to learn the said skills.
my 2 cents
Thierry
On Thu, 2005-06-23 at 08:34 +0100, Thierry Sayegh wrote:
As a poweruser, I would like to contribute but
You just did.
User advocates, documenters, marketeers, all sorts have something to contribute that is outside of code.
Takes all sorts to make the community go 'round.
- Karsten
On Thu, 2005-06-23 at 08:20 -0700, Karsten Wade wrote:
On Thu, 2005-06-23 at 08:34 +0100, Thierry Sayegh wrote:
As a poweruser, I would like to contribute but
You just did.
User advocates, documenters, marketeers, all sorts have something to contribute that is outside of code.
Takes all sorts to make the community go 'round.
- Karsten
Don't kill the messenger on this one. Or set me free if that's your idea.
Fedora has a significant user base. It's about the same as SUSE Pro and NLD combined. It trails Ubuntu and Debian and derivatives by about 50%.
Ubuntu is the only active community in the Linux world right now. The amount of documentations, innovation, side projects, users, posters is remarkable. I think they did it at Red Hat's expense.
If you survey the participants, many came from Red Hat of the past. They went shopping for another distribution when Red Hat 9 disappeared.
If you come out of denial, you will realize you lost your community of participants and the project is too confusing you have unwittingly constructed barriers to entry. Look at the discussion on this list. Collin comes in with this commanding presence and others argue. Also, by excluding independents, you will chase them off also and have squat.
Ubuntu has very carefully planned and centralized facilities for support and a core development team plus several hundred code contributors, bug submissions and gophers. They've been in existence seven months and have the largest Linux community. Fedora could do something similar but this waffling around will not get the job done.
Further, your fixed ideas and know-it -ll attitudes will kill you. You don't have all the answers, you don't even know the questions. How can anyone contribute to you?
What Red Hat lost, Ubuntu gained and then some.
I did a study for Sun and prior to the release of the first Ubuntu product, gave Sun a blueprint for doing a community. They laughed. But, Mark Shuttleworth implemented it and in five months they shipped 1 million CDs - and that doesn't count downloads.
I personally do not believe we can catch them. But we can look at their blueprint for a community and regain significant market share at the expense of Novell and others. Open your minds.
If you want statistics, I can come up with them. I did this study and regardless of what you think of me - I know more about this that you do. You know squat and you can't put a community back together with your immature approach, regardless of how much you think you know and have experienced elsewhere.
Fedora may have some interested participants, but they are users not developers and not contributors.
You have too much ground to make up. Don't forget, this is the result of the CEO telling aspiring Linux desktop users to go with Windows.
I'd start over from scratch, do our own thing and forget the controlling interest of Red Hat. You need infrastructure and you need to court people at the LUG level. You should give away CD's, provide schools with free software including things like Openoffice, etc.
If you don't want to extend yourselves, then you're going to thrash around and never get anything done - but talk.
On 6/23/05, Tom Adelstein adelste@yahoo.com wrote:
Fedora has a significant user base. It's about the same as SUSE Pro and NLD combined. It trails Ubuntu and Debian and derivatives by about 50%.
Where are you getting your userbase stats from?
-jef
On Thu, 2005-06-23 at 12:12 -0400, Jeff Spaleta wrote:
On 6/23/05, Tom Adelstein adelste@yahoo.com wrote:
Fedora has a significant user base. It's about the same as SUSE Pro and NLD combined. It trails Ubuntu and Debian and derivatives by about 50%.
Where are you getting your userbase stats from?
-jef
A Sun market study, Canonical Ltd., Debian's web site analysis, my publisher - O'Reilly, former Ximian - now Novell people, the executive suite of Novell, IBM, a survey of users, classified information from a DoD study, results of a series of articles reviewing various distributions, Linspire, Xandros, and sampling from Linux forums such as Linux Questions.
On Thu, 2005-06-23 at 12:16 -0500, Tom Adelstein wrote:
On Thu, 2005-06-23 at 12:12 -0400, Jeff Spaleta wrote:
On 6/23/05, Tom Adelstein adelste@yahoo.com wrote:
Fedora has a significant user base. It's about the same as SUSE Pro and NLD combined. It trails Ubuntu and Debian and derivatives by about 50%.
Where are you getting your userbase stats from?
-jef
A Sun market study, Canonical Ltd., Debian's web site analysis, my publisher - O'Reilly, former Ximian - now Novell people, the executive suite of Novell, IBM, a survey of users, classified information from a DoD study, results of a series of articles reviewing various distributions, Linspire, Xandros, and sampling from Linux forums such as Linux Questions.
So you can provide this information to us? Can we get it in any other form than anecdotally from you?
-sv
On 6/23/05, Tom Adelstein adelste@yahoo.com wrote:
A Sun market study, Canonical Ltd., Debian's web site analysis, my publisher - O'Reilly, former Ximian - now Novell people, the executive suite of Novell, IBM, a survey of users, classified information from a DoD study, results of a series of articles reviewing various distributions, Linspire, Xandros, and sampling from Linux forums such as Linux Questions.
I was hoping for citations that i can get a look at with some raw data and potentially a summary of the methodology for sampling. I'm very interested in getting statistically verifable analysis for any usage numbers for any distribution. I'm especially interested in any analysis break down of ubuntu's numbers not lumped in with as a debian aggregate. The last publicly available data I am aware of that even attempts a comparison... is the webserver survey of netcraft:
http://news.netcraft.com/archives/2005/03/14/fedora_makes_rapid_progress.htm...
I'm more interested in the raw data than the glowing conclusions. In fact I'm really not thrilled with how fast fedora is growing in that study of webservers. The implication that fedora web servers are going leaps and bounds sort of worries me that hosting companies are choosing fedora without telling customers about the support lifetime. I really didnt expect fedora usage in the web server space to increase as fast as it has. There's a lot of room for interpretation of that data. But sadly its the only comparable raw data with a set sampling methodology that I am aware of. I am of aware of the distrowatch.com polling, but even they don't attempt to claim their poll is an expression of real world userbase stats. At best its "popularity" and they admit the sampling methodology can easily be manipulated by the self-selecting participants. Remember linuxquestions.org poll..
http://www.linuxquestions.org/questions/showthread.php?s=&threadid=27209...
what was the best distro of the year? slackware. Not to knock slackware or anything. But that result seems to indicated a very different world order than you are suggesting... and you even site sampling of linuxquestions.org as a credible source. Sorry, but forum activity just can't be used for anything more finer grained than "critical mass" userbase analysis.
Also unfortunately ubuntu shows up as an aggregate with other "debian" releases so even in the very narrow scope of web servers I still don't have publicly comparable raw numbers for unbuntu alone. We could very well lump fedora in with rhel and get equally meaningless results similiar to lumping all debian derivatives together.
If you have any references to publicly available raw data, I'd absolutely love to see it. Even getting accurate stats of downloads is really tough. Because of mirrored distribution and secondary torrents you have a hard time knowing how many copies are really floating around out there. At best you can get a nice lower-bound to know if you are getting a critical mass of support, but anything beyond that is impossible to do accurately with download stats.
-jef
On Thu, 2005-06-23 at 13:47 -0400, Jeff Spaleta wrote:
On 6/23/05, Tom Adelstein adelste@yahoo.com wrote:
A Sun market study, Canonical Ltd., Debian's web site analysis, my publisher - O'Reilly, former Ximian - now Novell people, the executive suite of Novell, IBM, a survey of users, classified information from a DoD study, results of a series of articles reviewing various distributions, Linspire, Xandros, and sampling from Linux forums such as Linux Questions.
I was hoping for citations that i can get a look at with some raw data and potentially a summary of the methodology for sampling. I'm very interested in getting statistically verifable analysis for any usage numbers for any distribution. I'm especially interested in any analysis break down of ubuntu's numbers not lumped in with as a debian aggregate. The last publicly available data I am aware of that even attempts a comparison... is the webserver survey of netcraft:
http://news.netcraft.com/archives/2005/03/14/fedora_makes_rapid_progress.htm...
I'm more interested in the raw data than the glowing conclusions. In fact I'm really not thrilled with how fast fedora is growing in that study of webservers. The implication that fedora web servers are going leaps and bounds sort of worries me that hosting companies are choosing fedora without telling customers about the support lifetime. I really didnt expect fedora usage in the web server space to increase as fast as it has. There's a lot of room for interpretation of that data. But sadly its the only comparable raw data with a set sampling methodology that I am aware of. I am of aware of the distrowatch.com polling, but even they don't attempt to claim their poll is an expression of real world userbase stats. At best its "popularity" and they admit the sampling methodology can easily be manipulated by the self-selecting participants. Remember linuxquestions.org poll..
http://www.linuxquestions.org/questions/showthread.php?s=&threadid=27209...
what was the best distro of the year? slackware. Not to knock slackware or anything. But that result seems to indicated a very different world order than you are suggesting... and you even site sampling of linuxquestions.org as a credible source. Sorry, but forum activity just can't be used for anything more finer grained than "critical mass" userbase analysis.
Also unfortunately ubuntu shows up as an aggregate with other "debian" releases so even in the very narrow scope of web servers I still don't have publicly comparable raw numbers for unbuntu alone. We could very well lump fedora in with rhel and get equally meaningless results similiar to lumping all debian derivatives together.
If you have any references to publicly available raw data, I'd absolutely love to see it. Even getting accurate stats of downloads is really tough. Because of mirrored distribution and secondary torrents you have a hard time knowing how many copies are really floating around out there. At best you can get a nice lower-bound to know if you are getting a critical mass of support, but anything beyond that is impossible to do accurately with download stats.
-jef
Remember that Ubuntu was released in November, 2004.
On 6/23/05, Tom Adelstein adelste@yahoo.com wrote:
Remember that Ubuntu was released in November, 2004.
I remember... which is why im very interested in statistically credible data that is open for review. I am not interested in the executive summary conclusions of privately funded studies. I think the linux community at large (not just the fedora community) deserves the right to verify the data and the conclusions drawn from it. I'm sure ubuntu users would enjoy the chance to datamine and draw their own conclusions. Its called peer review.. its how this whole open collaboration process is suppose to work.
-jef
On Thu, 2005-06-23 at 13:59 -0400, Jeff Spaleta wrote:
On 6/23/05, Tom Adelstein adelste@yahoo.com wrote:
Remember that Ubuntu was released in November, 2004.
I remember... which is why im very interested in statistically credible data that is open for review. I am not interested in the executive summary conclusions of privately funded studies. I think the linux community at large (not just the fedora community) deserves the right to verify the data and the conclusions drawn from it. I'm sure ubuntu users would enjoy the chance to datamine and draw their own conclusions. Its called peer review.. its how this whole open collaboration process is suppose to work.
-jef
That's an interesting and almost compelling statement of why you want our research studies. The data exists and you can use the same sampling techniques, interview the same people, sign the same contracts, write the whitepapers and sell your services to the same people we do.
I'm not here representing Ubuntu or OpenSolaris or anyone. I considered contributing to this project. But after sitting back and watching, I don't see any way you will accomplish anything. First because you are not supportable and definitely not coachable.
An old Hindu statement put into modern terms goes something like this:
Do you know the difference between a jerk and an enlightened person? No.
OK. A jerk doesn't know his butt from a hole in the ground. An enlightened person doesn't know his butt from a hole in the ground but he knows it.
You chaps don't know it and it might not matter if you did because you are not comfortable in the space of "not knowing" and being willing to see what's out there without dragging your conclusions, beliefs, rationalizations, excuses and all that mental crap into everything.
I gave you a very succinct and clear example of a community that's working and you ask for my credentials and scatter charts. Jerks. Reactive, thoughtless jerks living in a pretense of knowledge.
Go look for yourself.
On Thu, Jun 23, 2005 at 03:33:32PM -0500, Tom Adelstein wrote:
I gave you a very succinct and clear example of a community that's working and you ask for my credentials and scatter charts. Jerks. Reactive, thoughtless jerks living in a pretense of knowledge.
I thought your earlier message was interesting, but the tone a bit belligerent -- in short, trolling for the kind of responses you got (or stronger). And now you're pretending to be all surprised.
Honestly, we don't *need* this kind of help.
Go look for yourself.
That's not the way it works; be nice, introduce yourself. Don't assume you're famous.
On 6/23/05, Tom Adelstein adelste@yahoo.com wrote:
I gave you a very succinct and clear example of a community that's working and you ask for my credentials and scatter charts. Jerks. Reactive, thoughtless jerks living in a pretense of knowledge.
The name calling isn't constructive. I am extremely aware that there are lessons to be learned from ubuntu. The combination of foresight, charity and entrepreneurial skill that has come together in Mr. Shuttleworth is a rare set of traits. I'm sure there are lessons to be learned from a number of projects. So far I'm not sure you have given me any new information that i wasn't already thinking about.
I'm sure everyone who considers themselves a contributor to the Fedora project wishes Ubuntu and other distribution endeavors much success. I can't speak for anyone else but I believe that that no one distribution idea is really going to 'win'.. its not even about 'winning'. Its about building a commons of ideas, an ecosystem of linux solutions, where all sorts of wacky ideas get tried and the good ones cross-pollinate into the wider ecosystem. Ubuntu's fresh start on how to approach community is one of those good ideas. No one is blind to it, we don't have to be beat over the head and be called jerks to see your points. You have valid points.. but man, there is very little community in how you present your views about how to build community. Its deeply ironic really. You are the best and worst example of what open community dialog can be. In one breath you wax eloquent about what a better community model could be.. and with the next you berate the rest of us in this conversation for not knowing anything. This is now how you build a better community. You do not inspire anyone to listen to your ideas or to give you authority in setting direction by browbeating or demeaning others for their ignorance. You are a broken spirit and I'm not sure you have the patience to mentor, to teach or to lead in a community setting.
-jef
I gave you a very succinct and clear example of a community that's working and you ask for my credentials and scatter charts. Jerks. Reactive, thoughtless jerks living in a pretense of knowledge.
Go look for yourself.
I really don't understand what is wrong with asking for the data so we can review it. And barring the data being available, I don't see what's wrong with asking for some background information on the person communicating the results of the information.
I'm not trying to be harsh or rude. I really just don't see what's so wrong with asking for this info.
You're presenting some information which runs counter to the experience I've had. So, I'm trying to get more information from you to reconcile it. I approach claims that I cannot reconcile right away with suspicion. That you're unwilling to provide the data increases my suspicion about the efficacy of your data acquisition methods.
I don't remember calling you names in any of my emails nor do I remember Jef doing anything like that. Why don't we try to keep this civil?
-sv
On 6/23/05, Tom Adelstein adelste@yahoo.com wrote:
That's an interesting and almost compelling statement of why you want our research studies. The data exists
Where? Is it public?
and you can use the same sampling techniques
Which were? Are those publicly available?
interview the same people, sign the same contracts, write the whitepapers and sell your services to the same people we do.
This is off point. Wasn't your point that we reject ideas and information? I've seen nothing but requests for the information. I know who you are, and so does Google. And I don't question your credentials. You don't need them if you have the data.
I'm not here representing Ubuntu or OpenSolaris or anyone. I considered contributing to this project. But after sitting back and watching, I don't see any way you will accomplish anything.
The good news about an open community is that the door swings both ways. You are free to watch it flame from afar, and then everyone on this thread will know that you told us so. You will have those credentials to us.
First because you are not supportable and definitely not coachable.
I could walk into any forum, except Utopiabuntu I guess, and level that same compaint. First I need to find one full of people who have been waiting so long for this, that they have cut to the chase and can't take anymore vague or (so far) unsibstantiated statements of purpose or direction.
Do you know the difference between a jerk and an enlightened person? No.
Oh, I think I know this one. It's a trick question. The jerk is the one who calls an entire list full of people he's never met, spoken to, or seen a post from jerks - based on a couple of posts he may have misunderstood?
Or should I scold you for even asking me such a question? How dare you doubt my knowledge of asses and holes!
OK. A jerk doesn't know his butt from a hole in the ground. An enlightened person doesn't know his butt from a hole in the ground but he knows it.
I know neither where this thread's ass (the data) is or the whole in the ground (the research techniques). So I can't tell them apart, but at least I know it. I still feel like there's something to be learned if we find either.
You chaps don't know it and it might not matter if you did because you are not comfortable in the space of "not knowing" and being willing to see what's out there without dragging your conclusions, beliefs, rationalizations, excuses and all that mental crap into everything.
I saw several requests for the numbers, which I didn't take as questioning the validity. But I know a bit about Jef and Seth, so I know they care more about the facts than the conjecture. You have to have seen the same funded studies we've seen, and you know like we know that data can be spun.
I gave you a very succinct and clear example of a community that's working
But not to what extent, and nothing as to why. Is the Sun blueprint publicly available? If all of this was work for hire, that you cannot share, what you could easily contribute if you were still interested is where to begin in sweeping this data up ourselves. Assuming the best way to build a community is by training everyone to do everything, instead of capitalizing on a member's given strengths.
and you ask for my credentials and scatter charts.
...and the stats, and the methodology...or a link, or something.
Like I said, I know who you are, and I don't doubt your integrity nor do I suspect you of shilling for another project, and I would still love to know what sites/stats/metrics/methodology you are using. I believe Ubuntu has a thriving community and install base. I'd love to see that (and any other) project baselined and tracked in a consistent fashion. I don't do that for a living, so I need help. That what a community offers, right? That's why we don't tell sysadmins with Nvidia trouble to go by a book on hacking the kernel before they ask for help.
I'm not big on my Hindu parables, but I have heard this one "Lead by example."
--jeremy
On Thu, 2005-06-23 at 20:09 -0400, Jeremy Hogan wrote:
On 6/23/05, Tom Adelstein adelste@yahoo.com wrote:
That's an interesting and almost compelling statement of why you want our research studies. The data exists
Where? Is it public?
and you can use the same sampling techniques
Which were? Are those publicly available?
interview the same people, sign the same contracts, write the whitepapers and sell your services to the same people we do.
This is off point. Wasn't your point that we reject ideas and information? I've seen nothing but requests for the information. I know who you are, and so does Google. And I don't question your credentials. You don't need them if you have the data.
I'm not here representing Ubuntu or OpenSolaris or anyone. I considered contributing to this project. But after sitting back and watching, I don't see any way you will accomplish anything.
The good news about an open community is that the door swings both ways. You are free to watch it flame from afar, and then everyone on this thread will know that you told us so. You will have those credentials to us.
First because you are not supportable and definitely not coachable.
I could walk into any forum, except Utopiabuntu I guess, and level that same compaint. First I need to find one full of people who have been waiting so long for this, that they have cut to the chase and can't take anymore vague or (so far) unsibstantiated statements of purpose or direction.
Do you know the difference between a jerk and an enlightened person? No.
Oh, I think I know this one. It's a trick question. The jerk is the one who calls an entire list full of people he's never met, spoken to, or seen a post from jerks - based on a couple of posts he may have misunderstood?
Or should I scold you for even asking me such a question? How dare you doubt my knowledge of asses and holes!
OK. A jerk doesn't know his butt from a hole in the ground. An enlightened person doesn't know his butt from a hole in the ground but he knows it.
I know neither where this thread's ass (the data) is or the whole in the ground (the research techniques). So I can't tell them apart, but at least I know it. I still feel like there's something to be learned if we find either.
You chaps don't know it and it might not matter if you did because you are not comfortable in the space of "not knowing" and being willing to see what's out there without dragging your conclusions, beliefs, rationalizations, excuses and all that mental crap into everything.
I saw several requests for the numbers, which I didn't take as questioning the validity. But I know a bit about Jef and Seth, so I know they care more about the facts than the conjecture. You have to have seen the same funded studies we've seen, and you know like we know that data can be spun.
I gave you a very succinct and clear example of a community that's working
But not to what extent, and nothing as to why. Is the Sun blueprint publicly available? If all of this was work for hire, that you cannot share, what you could easily contribute if you were still interested is where to begin in sweeping this data up ourselves. Assuming the best way to build a community is by training everyone to do everything, instead of capitalizing on a member's given strengths.
and you ask for my credentials and scatter charts.
...and the stats, and the methodology...or a link, or something.
Like I said, I know who you are, and I don't doubt your integrity nor do I suspect you of shilling for another project, and I would still love to know what sites/stats/metrics/methodology you are using. I believe Ubuntu has a thriving community and install base. I'd love to see that (and any other) project baselined and tracked in a consistent fashion. I don't do that for a living, so I need help. That what a community offers, right? That's why we don't tell sysadmins with Nvidia trouble to go by a book on hacking the kernel before they ask for help.
I'm not big on my Hindu parables, but I have heard this one "Lead by example."
--jeremy
-- Fedora-marketing-list mailing list Fedora-marketing-list@redhat.com http://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/fedora-marketing-list
my goodness, my first day here, but I understand this is a little out of the ordinary for this list. one thing I would have to point out is that Ubuntu is about the fastest branded product on the market since like the 30's or something, I don't have the stats here...
anyway, unless we coalesce and find direction then we are twisting in the wind. Fedora has a huge user base, but I know personally of many defections to Ubuntu in the last few weeks, just from friends of mine, so it's not a broad sample, but I believe indicative.
I will start a new thread introducing myself in a few minutes, but I wanted to comment on this, my first fedora-marketing list reception.
thanks.
G
anyway, unless we coalesce and find direction then we are twisting in the wind. Fedora has a huge user base, but I know personally of many defections to Ubuntu in the last few weeks, just from friends of mine, so it's not a broad sample, but I believe indicative.
I don't know how many ways I can say this but it's not a 'defection to ubuntu'
That's a really bad point of view to get locked into and I'd like to discourage it.
-sv
On Thu, 2005-06-23 at 21:36 -0400, seth vidal wrote:
anyway, unless we coalesce and find direction then we are twisting in the wind. Fedora has a huge user base, but I know personally of many defections to Ubuntu in the last few weeks, just from friends of mine, so it's not a broad sample, but I believe indicative.
I don't know how many ways I can say this but it's not a 'defection to ubuntu'
That's a really bad point of view to get locked into and I'd like to discourage it.
-sv
-- Fedora-marketing-list mailing list Fedora-marketing-list@redhat.com http://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/fedora-marketing-list
I agree semantically.
...which will probably end up blogged at some point soon.
At LinuxTag, I watched Benjamin "Mako" Hill defend Ubuntu against a room full (and I mean full by the dozens) of angry Debian developers who believe that a billionaire has hijacked years of their hard work and taken the credit for it.
Frankly, he didn't do a very good job of this defense. Kind of a tough defense to mount, actually, since the Ubuntu folks put together a tool that pulled in Debian patches and inadvertently (one hopes) stripped the names of the original contributors out of the change logs.
Oops.
"We need the Debian community," he said. "There's ten of us, and thousands of you. But hey, is a fork really such a bad thing?"
Good luck, Mako.
After the talk, I spoke briefly with Martin Michlmayer, former head of the Debian project. He was soliciting Fedora folks for our knowledge on "how to get a release out the door every six months." Not that we're brilliant at it ourselves or anything, but we manage to get the job done, and get new stuff in release after release.
There are, without doubt, things that we can learn from Debian/Ubuntu, and I fully intend for us to do precisely that. But bear in mind, gentlemen, that there's a great deal that Debian/Ubuntu -- and everyone else -- can learn from us.
--g
_____________________ ____________________________________________ Greg DeKoenigsberg ] [ the future masters of technology will have Community Relations ] [ to be lighthearted and intelligent. the Red Hat ] [ machine easily masters the grim and the ] [ dumb. --mcluhan
On Wed, 2005-06-29 at 12:39 -0400, Greg DeKoenigsberg wrote:
Frankly, he didn't do a very good job of this defense. Kind of a tough defense to mount, actually, since the Ubuntu folks put together a tool that pulled in Debian patches and inadvertently (one hopes) stripped the names of the original contributors out of the change logs.
That tool, hct, doesn't only pull from Debian. It also gladly reads Fedora/SuSE/gentoo/etc... it can read cvs, as well as from sources/srpms
Heh.
So now I'm catching up on all of the mail from the past week, and it looks like things got a little snippy. Let me add my $0.02, for what they're worth:
1. Numbers don't impress me, except in a very general way. Debian and Ubuntu and Fedora are all doing very well. I'd like to get *some* accurate numbers -- but only to tell us how well *we* are doing. What do I want to see? More users, more packagers, more awareness, more innovation. But I'm *not* interested in "how we're doing versus Ubuntu today". Having seen and talked with a lot of folks in Debian/Ubuntuland at LinuxTag, I've come to the conclusion that everyone has their own problems to solve. I'm interested in solving ours.
2. "Marketing" is perhaps a misnomer here. People think of "marketing" as this aggressive, sell-the-sizzle, hit-the-number sort of idea. That's not what I think of when I think about this list of people. I think of much more basic stuff: tell people what's good about Fedora, and why they should use it, and most importantly, why they should *participate*. I'm not interested in having 10 gazillion users; I'm interested in having a few thousand knowledgable advocates. The user base will take care of itself.
--g
_____________________ ____________________________________________ Greg DeKoenigsberg ] [ the future masters of technology will have Community Relations ] [ to be lighthearted and intelligent. the Red Hat ] [ machine easily masters the grim and the ] [ dumb. --mcluhan
On Wed, 2005-06-29 at 12:26 -0400, Greg DeKoenigsberg wrote:
Heh.
So now I'm catching up on all of the mail from the past week, and it looks like things got a little snippy. Let me add my $0.02, for what they're worth:
- Numbers don't impress me, except in a very general way. Debian and
Ubuntu and Fedora are all doing very well. I'd like to get *some* accurate numbers -- but only to tell us how well *we* are doing. What do I want to see? More users, more packagers, more awareness, more innovation. But I'm *not* interested in "how we're doing versus Ubuntu today". Having seen and talked with a lot of folks in Debian/Ubuntuland at LinuxTag, I've come to the conclusion that everyone has their own problems to solve. I'm interested in solving ours.
this is good
It's useful to keep in mind the strength that comes from this diversity having to do with the approaches Fedora and Ubuntu, for example, take to defining their audiences. The free organic building block goes much further when we focus on doing our chosen vertical(s) exceptionally well. And we need to focus our energies on the Goliath, non-open standards, rather than withIN the sandbox.
Keep in mind also that one of the principal points of differentiation for distros -- substantial points -- has to do with RPM vs APT. It is a difference which can carry an adoption. Each suits different people on its merits and respective frictions. All's to Good.
- "Marketing" is perhaps a misnomer here. People think of "marketing" as
this aggressive, sell-the-sizzle, hit-the-number sort of idea. That's not what I think of when I think about this list of people. I think of much more basic stuff: tell people what's good about Fedora, and why they should use it, and most importantly, why they should *participate*. I'm not interested in having 10 gazillion users; I'm interested in having a few thousand knowledgable advocates. The user base will take care of itself.
This is good, too. It's the quality of the network... -Sam
--g
Greg DeKoenigsberg ] [ the future masters of technology will have Community Relations ] [ to be lighthearted and intelligent. the Red Hat ] [ machine easily masters the grim and the ] [ dumb. --mcluhan
-- Fedora-marketing-list mailing list Fedora-marketing-list@redhat.com http://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/fedora-marketing-list
Keep in mind also that one of the principal points of differentiation for distros -- substantial points -- has to do with RPM vs APT. It is a difference which can carry an adoption. Each suits different people on its merits and respective frictions. All's to Good.
rpm vs apt?
You're kidding right? I thought we had finally put this one to bed a while ago.
okay: rpm == dpkg apt == yum or apt-rpm or whatever.
just so we're clear.
-sv
On Wed, 2005-06-29 at 12:59 -0400, seth vidal wrote:
Keep in mind also that one of the principal points of differentiation for distros -- substantial points -- has to do with RPM vs APT. It is a difference which can carry an adoption. Each suits different people on its merits and respective frictions. All's to Good.
rpm vs apt?
You're kidding right? I thought we had finally put this one to bed a while ago.
okay: rpm == dpkg apt == yum or apt-rpm or whatever.
just so we're clear.
Of course, so careless of me, Seth. -Sam
-sv
-- Fedora-marketing-list mailing list Fedora-marketing-list@redhat.com http://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/fedora-marketing-list
On Wed, 2005-06-29 at 13:00 -0400, Sam Hiser wrote:
On Wed, 2005-06-29 at 12:59 -0400, seth vidal wrote:
Keep in mind also that one of the principal points of differentiation for distros -- substantial points -- has to do with RPM vs APT. It is a difference which can carry an adoption. Each suits different people on its merits and respective frictions. All's to Good.
rpm vs apt?
You're kidding right? I thought we had finally put this one to bed a while ago.
okay: rpm == dpkg apt == yum or apt-rpm or whatever.
just so we're clear.
Of course, so careless of me, Seth.
But I guess my point is that the differences between rpm and deb and yum and apt is a stone's throw in terms of functionality.
So what's the big point of differentiation?
-sv
On Wed, 29 Jun 2005, seth vidal wrote:
But I guess my point is that the differences between rpm and deb and yum and apt is a stone's throw in terms of functionality.
So what's the big point of differentiation?
1. An ocean of perception.
2. The fact that this distinction splits the entire universe into two camps -- basically for no reason. There's nothing so brilliantly different about rpm and/or dpkg that a common packaging solution couldn't be devised -- if anyone cared. :)
--g
_____________________ ____________________________________________ Greg DeKoenigsberg ] [ the future masters of technology will have Community Relations ] [ to be lighthearted and intelligent. the Red Hat ] [ machine easily masters the grim and the ] [ dumb. --mcluhan
On Wed, 2005-06-29 at 13:41 -0400, Greg DeKoenigsberg wrote:
On Wed, 29 Jun 2005, seth vidal wrote:
But I guess my point is that the differences between rpm and deb and yum and apt is a stone's throw in terms of functionality.
So what's the big point of differentiation?
An ocean of perception.
The fact that this distinction splits the entire universe into two
camps -- basically for no reason. There's nothing so brilliantly different about rpm and/or dpkg that a common packaging solution couldn't be devised -- if anyone cared. :)
oh you mean like all the wasted effort at freedesktop.org trying to come up with 'standards' for gnome and kde.
when if we only did gnome, for example, we wouldn't have to waste time talking about goofball standards for menu files.
-sv
On Wed, 2005-06-29 at 13:46 -0400, seth vidal wrote:
On Wed, 2005-06-29 at 13:41 -0400, Greg DeKoenigsberg wrote:
On Wed, 29 Jun 2005, seth vidal wrote:
But I guess my point is that the differences between rpm and deb and yum and apt is a stone's throw in terms of functionality.
So what's the big point of differentiation?
An ocean of perception.
The fact that this distinction splits the entire universe into two
camps -- basically for no reason. There's nothing so brilliantly different about rpm and/or dpkg that a common packaging solution couldn't be devised -- if anyone cared. :)
oh you mean like all the wasted effort at freedesktop.org trying to come up with 'standards' for gnome and kde.
when if we only did gnome, for example, we wouldn't have to waste time talking about goofball standards for menu files.
Hey, that's someone's ego you got over there in Germany ;-)
-sv
-- Fedora-marketing-list mailing list Fedora-marketing-list@redhat.com http://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/fedora-marketing-list
On Wed, 2005-06-29 at 13:48 -0400, Sam Hiser wrote:
On Wed, 2005-06-29 at 13:46 -0400, seth vidal wrote:
On Wed, 2005-06-29 at 13:41 -0400, Greg DeKoenigsberg wrote:
On Wed, 29 Jun 2005, seth vidal wrote:
But I guess my point is that the differences between rpm and deb and yum and apt is a stone's throw in terms of functionality.
So what's the big point of differentiation?
An ocean of perception.
The fact that this distinction splits the entire universe into two
camps -- basically for no reason. There's nothing so brilliantly different about rpm and/or dpkg that a common packaging solution couldn't be devised -- if anyone cared. :)
oh you mean like all the wasted effort at freedesktop.org trying to come up with 'standards' for gnome and kde.
when if we only did gnome, for example, we wouldn't have to waste time talking about goofball standards for menu files.
Hey, that's someone's ego you got over there in Germany ;-)
in germany?
The same is true if we were only doing kde.
what're you talking about?
-sv
On Wed, 29 Jun 2005, seth vidal wrote:
On Wed, 2005-06-29 at 13:41 -0400, Greg DeKoenigsberg wrote:
On Wed, 29 Jun 2005, seth vidal wrote:
But I guess my point is that the differences between rpm and deb and yum and apt is a stone's throw in terms of functionality.
So what's the big point of differentiation?
An ocean of perception.
The fact that this distinction splits the entire universe into two
camps -- basically for no reason. There's nothing so brilliantly different about rpm and/or dpkg that a common packaging solution couldn't be devised -- if anyone cared. :)
oh you mean like all the wasted effort at freedesktop.org trying to come up with 'standards' for gnome and kde.
See my disclaimer: "if anyone cared".
Once Extras catches up to Debian in number of packages, that distinction becomes moot as well.
--g
_____________________ ____________________________________________ Greg DeKoenigsberg ] [ the future masters of technology will have Community Relations ] [ to be lighthearted and intelligent. the Red Hat ] [ machine easily masters the grim and the ] [ dumb. --mcluhan
Am Mittwoch, den 29.06.2005, 13:53 -0400 schrieb Greg DeKoenigsberg:
Once Extras catches up to Debian in number of packages, that distinction becomes moot as well.
I hope it never will. Debian has way too much packages that nobody need, I think. There are some important packages that should be in Extras, but that are not so many.
Thilo
On Wed, 2005-06-29 at 20:15 +0200, Thilo Pfennig wrote:
Am Mittwoch, den 29.06.2005, 13:53 -0400 schrieb Greg DeKoenigsberg:
Once Extras catches up to Debian in number of packages, that distinction becomes moot as well.
I hope it never will. Debian has way too much packages that nobody need, I think. There are some important packages that should be in Extras, but that are not so many.
this is another reason why we need to get moving on the grouping and classification of packages in extras.
getting started on this early will help as the number of packages grow.
-sv
On Wed, 2005-06-29 at 14:19 -0400, seth vidal wrote:
Once Extras catches up to Debian in number of packages, that
distinction
becomes moot as well.
I hope it never will. Debian has way too much packages that nobody
need,
I think. There are some important packages that should be in Extras,
but
that are not so many.
this is another reason why we need to get moving on the grouping and classification of packages in extras.
We should loook at Popularity Contest (debian's popcon app) for this sort of thing
On Wed, 2005-06-29 at 13:09 -0400, seth vidal wrote:
On Wed, 2005-06-29 at 13:00 -0400, Sam Hiser wrote:
On Wed, 2005-06-29 at 12:59 -0400, seth vidal wrote:
Keep in mind also that one of the principal points of differentiation for distros -- substantial points -- has to do with RPM vs APT. It is a difference which can carry an adoption. Each suits different people on its merits and respective frictions. All's to Good.
rpm vs apt?
You're kidding right? I thought we had finally put this one to bed a while ago.
okay: rpm == dpkg apt == yum or apt-rpm or whatever.
just so we're clear.
Of course, so careless of me, Seth.
But I guess my point is that the differences between rpm and deb and yum and apt is a stone's throw in terms of functionality.
So what's the big point of differentiation?
The (enterprise, gov't) adoption decision-makers -- who take a more superficial view -- make a bigger distinction than you or I.
There is a larger appearance of difference in the way these systems are supported...in the way an organization would look at the challenge of configuring and updating a large number of systems...in the way the distro vendors package these services. (Ubuntu's enterprise offering is vapor yet, but...)
It is a nominal thing, but the distinction is being made. It may not be necessary but it exists. That's my thinking behind. It comes into the conversation when organizations are defining their requirements and making the Linux adoption decision. I don't actually say it doesnt matter, because they are thinking about their resources. There's a difference in the way I support Red Hat or Fedora or Ubuntu or JDS and planning and money are naturally involved.
Additionally, adoption into either framework is a kind of lock-in, so the decision is thoroughly considered. Do I go with Ford or Alfa? Well the answer depends upon where I get the oil filters and how much they cost, and can I get them at all -- for my fleet of 500 vans ;-)
-Sam
-sv
-- Fedora-marketing-list mailing list Fedora-marketing-list@redhat.com http://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/fedora-marketing-list
The (enterprise, gov't) adoption decision-makers -- who take a more superficial view -- make a bigger distinction than you or I.
There are no enterprise 'labeled' deb-based distributions that I have ever heard of.
There is a larger appearance of difference in the way these systems are supported...in the way an organization would look at the challenge of configuring and updating a large number of systems...in the way the distro vendors package these services. (Ubuntu's enterprise offering is vapor yet, but...)
What difference? Red Hat-based distributions use kickstart for mass deployment and can use yum or up2date for updates.
It is a nominal thing, but the distinction is being made. It may not be necessary but it exists. That's my thinking behind. It comes into the conversation when organizations are defining their requirements and making the Linux adoption decision. I don't actually say it doesnt matter, because they are thinking about their resources. There's a difference in the way I support Red Hat or Fedora or Ubuntu or JDS and planning and money are naturally involved.
What difference? The only thing I can think of is that ubuntu is the only deb-based distro with an automated installer.
-sv
On Wed, 2005-06-29 at 13:57 -0400, seth vidal wrote:
The (enterprise, gov't) adoption decision-makers -- who take a more superficial view -- make a bigger distinction than you or I.
There are no enterprise 'labeled' deb-based distributions that I have ever heard of.
There is a larger appearance of difference in the way these systems are supported...in the way an organization would look at the challenge of configuring and updating a large number of systems...in the way the distro vendors package these services. (Ubuntu's enterprise offering is vapor yet, but...)
What difference? Red Hat-based distributions use kickstart for mass deployment and can use yum or up2date for updates.
It is a nominal thing, but the distinction is being made. It may not be necessary but it exists. That's my thinking behind. It comes into the conversation when organizations are defining their requirements and making the Linux adoption decision. I don't actually say it doesnt matter, because they are thinking about their resources. There's a difference in the way I support Red Hat or Fedora or Ubuntu or JDS and planning and money are naturally involved.
What difference? The only thing I can think of is that ubuntu is the only deb-based distro with an automated installer.
Seth- Respectfully, you don't sit with IT heads and explain all this and then that it actually only makes a difference in the process. They don't know and they need to know -- or they ask: "RPM or DEB?" It's a different perspective. We make Debian (and now Ubuntu) almost enterprise-class. It's what Red Hat does, and does better than anyone yet. -Sam
-sv
-- Fedora-marketing-list mailing list Fedora-marketing-list@redhat.com http://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/fedora-marketing-list
Seth- Respectfully, you don't sit with IT heads and explain all this and then that it actually only makes a difference in the process. They don't know and they need to know -- or they ask: "RPM or DEB?" It's a different perspective. We make Debian (and now Ubuntu) almost enterprise-class. It's what Red Hat does, and does better than anyone yet.
What? 1. I have sat and had that discussion about enterprise-wide support for linux. At Duke, with the CIO and Associate Deans of Computing for almost all the major schools.
2. Who is 'we' in the above sentence: "We make Debian (and now Ubuntu) almost enterprise-class."
-sv
On Wed, 2005-06-29 at 14:08 -0400, seth vidal wrote:
Seth- Respectfully, you don't sit with IT heads and explain all this and then that it actually only makes a difference in the process. They don't know and they need to know -- or they ask: "RPM or DEB?" It's a different perspective. We make Debian (and now Ubuntu) almost enterprise-class. It's what Red Hat does, and does better than anyone yet.
What?
- I have sat and had that discussion about enterprise-wide support for
linux. At Duke, with the CIO and Associate Deans of Computing for almost all the major schools.
- Who is 'we' in the above sentence: "We make Debian (and now Ubuntu)
almost enterprise-class."
Hiser + Adelstein
-sv
-- Fedora-marketing-list mailing list Fedora-marketing-list@redhat.com http://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/fedora-marketing-list
On Wed, 2005-06-29 at 13:57 -0400, seth vidal wrote:
The (enterprise, gov't) adoption decision-makers -- who take a more superficial view -- make a bigger distinction than you or I.
There are no enterprise 'labeled' deb-based distributions that I have ever heard of.
Ubuntu
(really)
On Fri, 2005-07-01 at 11:50 +0800, Colin Charles wrote:
On Wed, 2005-06-29 at 13:57 -0400, seth vidal wrote:
The (enterprise, gov't) adoption decision-makers -- who take a more superficial view -- make a bigger distinction than you or I.
There are no enterprise 'labeled' deb-based distributions that I have ever heard of.
Ubuntu
(really)
They haven't released an enterprise-targeted distro yet.
-sv
On Fri, 2005-07-01 at 08:20 -0400, seth vidal wrote:
On Fri, 2005-07-01 at 11:50 +0800, Colin Charles wrote:
On Wed, 2005-06-29 at 13:57 -0400, seth vidal wrote:
The (enterprise, gov't) adoption decision-makers -- who take a more superficial view -- make a bigger distinction than you or I.
There are no enterprise 'labeled' deb-based distributions that I have ever heard of.
Ubuntu
(really)
They haven't released an enterprise-targeted distro yet.
Correct. They are looking at doing so. -Sam
-sv
-- Fedora-marketing-list mailing list Fedora-marketing-list@redhat.com http://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/fedora-marketing-list
Am Mi, den 29.06.2005 schrieb seth vidal um 18:59:
Keep in mind also that one of the principal points of differentiation for distros -- substantial points -- has to do with RPM vs APT. It is a difference which can carry an adoption. Each suits different people on its merits and respective frictions. All's to Good.
rpm vs apt?
You're kidding right? I thought we had finally put this one to bed a while ago.
okay: rpm == dpkg apt == yum or apt-rpm or whatever.
just so we're clear.
-sv
I fully agree, Seth. It has ever been incorrect to compare rpm with apt. On the other side it is exactly this comparison people come over with when there is the naming of Red Hat Linux and now for a while Fedora and Debian on the other side. Red Hat as a linux distribution is still in the heads of many, many people (at least I can say that for people I use to speak with here in Germany) as the "rpm dependency hell". Thats sad. So I think it would be good if we would place yum more into the focus when promoting Fedora.
Alexander
On Wed, 2005-06-29 at 19:17 +0200, Alexander Dalloz wrote:
Am Mi, den 29.06.2005 schrieb seth vidal um 18:59:
Keep in mind also that one of the principal points of differentiation for distros -- substantial points -- has to do with RPM vs APT. It is a difference which can carry an adoption. Each suits different people on its merits and respective frictions. All's to Good.
rpm vs apt?
You're kidding right? I thought we had finally put this one to bed a while ago.
okay: rpm == dpkg apt == yum or apt-rpm or whatever.
just so we're clear.
-sv
I fully agree, Seth. It has ever been incorrect to compare rpm with apt. On the other side it is exactly this comparison people come over with when there is the naming of Red Hat Linux and now for a while Fedora and Debian on the other side. Red Hat as a linux distribution is still in the heads of many, many people (at least I can say that for people I use to speak with here in Germany) as the "rpm dependency hell". Thats sad. So I think it would be good if we would place yum more into the focus when promoting Fedora.
I genuinely think we should probably make the gui tools like pup and friends good enough that no one needs ever think about the name of the commands. :)
-sv
On Wed, 2005-06-29 at 13:21 -0400, seth vidal wrote:
On Wed, 2005-06-29 at 19:17 +0200, Alexander Dalloz wrote:
Am Mi, den 29.06.2005 schrieb seth vidal um 18:59:
Keep in mind also that one of the principal points of differentiation for distros -- substantial points -- has to do with RPM vs APT. It is a difference which can carry an adoption. Each suits different people on its merits and respective frictions. All's to Good.
rpm vs apt?
You're kidding right? I thought we had finally put this one to bed a while ago.
okay: rpm == dpkg apt == yum or apt-rpm or whatever.
just so we're clear.
-sv
I fully agree, Seth. It has ever been incorrect to compare rpm with apt. On the other side it is exactly this comparison people come over with when there is the naming of Red Hat Linux and now for a while Fedora and Debian on the other side. Red Hat as a linux distribution is still in the heads of many, many people (at least I can say that for people I use to speak with here in Germany) as the "rpm dependency hell". Thats sad. So I think it would be good if we would place yum more into the focus when promoting Fedora.
I genuinely think we should probably make the gui tools like pup and friends
Will pup have a command line version?
The current 'rpm for queries and local/remote installs, yum for local and remote installs with dependencies' situation is, from a user POV, weird.
Mike
On Thu, Jun 30, 2005 at 11:56:47AM +1000, Mike MacCana wrote:
Will pup have a command line version? The current 'rpm for queries and local/remote installs, yum for local and remote installs with dependencies' situation is, from a user POV, weird.
alias pup=yum
:)
On Thu, 2005-06-30 at 11:56 +1000, Mike MacCana wrote:
On Wed, 2005-06-29 at 13:21 -0400, seth vidal wrote:
On Wed, 2005-06-29 at 19:17 +0200, Alexander Dalloz wrote:
Am Mi, den 29.06.2005 schrieb seth vidal um 18:59:
Keep in mind also that one of the principal points of differentiation for distros -- substantial points -- has to do with RPM vs APT. It is a difference which can carry an adoption. Each suits different people on its merits and respective frictions. All's to Good.
rpm vs apt?
You're kidding right? I thought we had finally put this one to bed a while ago.
okay: rpm == dpkg apt == yum or apt-rpm or whatever.
just so we're clear.
-sv
I fully agree, Seth. It has ever been incorrect to compare rpm with apt. On the other side it is exactly this comparison people come over with when there is the naming of Red Hat Linux and now for a while Fedora and Debian on the other side. Red Hat as a linux distribution is still in the heads of many, many people (at least I can say that for people I use to speak with here in Germany) as the "rpm dependency hell". Thats sad. So I think it would be good if we would place yum more into the focus when promoting Fedora.
I genuinely think we should probably make the gui tools like pup and friends
Will pup have a command line version?
The current 'rpm for queries and local/remote installs, yum for local and remote installs with dependencies' situation is, from a user POV, weird.
yum can do local lists and local installs.
quite frankly for 80% of the user case - if they're using the command line - they can just use yum.
-sv
On Wed, 2005-06-29 at 22:18 -0400, seth vidal wrote:
On Thu, 2005-06-30 at 11:56 +1000, Mike MacCana wrote:
The current 'rpm for queries and local/remote installs, yum for local and remote installs with dependencies' situation is, from a user POV, weird.
yum can do local lists and local installs.
Yes, as I said above, yum can do local installs. And I'm aware of the local listing capability.
quite frankly for 80% of the user case - if they're using the command line - they can just use yum.
True. But for those of us who aren't beginners, but who appreciate simplity and elegance, it's be lovely to ask what package installed a file with yum or pup. Perhaps yum or pup could also have an option to restore that file to it's factory defaults (original contents), or other useful things for us admin folks.
Mike
On Wed, 29 Jun 2005, Sam Hiser wrote:
Keep in mind also that one of the principal points of differentiation for distros -- substantial points -- has to do with RPM vs APT. It is a difference which can carry an adoption. Each suits different people on its merits and respective frictions. All's to Good.
Personally? I'd like to make this distinction disappear one day. There's no reason to have two packaging standards.
So best of luck to me. :)
--g
_____________________ ____________________________________________ Greg DeKoenigsberg ] [ the future masters of technology will have Community Relations ] [ to be lighthearted and intelligent. the Red Hat ] [ machine easily masters the grim and the ] [ dumb. --mcluhan
On Wed, 2005-06-29 at 13:39 -0400, Greg DeKoenigsberg wrote:
On Wed, 29 Jun 2005, Sam Hiser wrote:
Keep in mind also that one of the principal points of differentiation for distros -- substantial points -- has to do with RPM vs APT. It is a difference which can carry an adoption. Each suits different people on its merits and respective frictions. All's to Good.
Personally? I'd like to make this distinction disappear one day. There's no reason to have two packaging standards.
It's already disappearing underneath the GUI tools.
So best of luck to me. :)
--g
Greg DeKoenigsberg ] [ the future masters of technology will have Community Relations ] [ to be lighthearted and intelligent. the Red Hat ] [ machine easily masters the grim and the ] [ dumb. --mcluhan
-- Fedora-marketing-list mailing list Fedora-marketing-list@redhat.com http://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/fedora-marketing-list
On Wed, 2005-06-29 at 13:39 -0400, Greg DeKoenigsberg wrote:
Keep in mind also that one of the principal points of differentiation for distros -- substantial points -- has to do with RPM vs APT. It is a difference which can carry an adoption. Each suits different people on its merits and respective frictions. All's to Good.
Personally? I'd like to make this distinction disappear one day. There's no reason to have two packaging standards.
So best of luck to me. :)
Autopackage? *grin*
Well, join the freedesktop.org team and start working on packaging guideleines/standards for something unified
Expect to see a lot of zealots along the way...
On Wed, 2005-06-29 at 12:46 -0400, Sam Hiser wrote:
Keep in mind also that one of the principal points of differentiation for distros -- substantial points -- has to do with RPM vs APT.
You either mean rpm and dpkg, or yum and apt, or rpm/yum and dpkg/apt.
Or you're very confused.
Mike
On Wed, Jun 29, 2005 at 12:26:38PM -0400, Greg DeKoenigsberg wrote:
what I think of when I think about this list of people. I think of much more basic stuff: tell people what's good about Fedora, and why they should use it, and most importantly, why they should *participate*. I'm not interested in having 10 gazillion users; I'm interested in having a few thousand knowledgable advocates. The user base will take care of itself.
I think we need to work on solving this problem:
https://www.redhat.com/archives/fedora-extras-list/2005-June/msg01007.html
The general case, not necessarily this specific package. I know Warren is working on a new bugzilla-based package submission process, which should help, but someone needs to make sure that valuable contributions aren't just ignored without any comment.
On Thu, 30 Jun 2005, Matthew Miller wrote:
I think we need to work on solving this problem:
https://www.redhat.com/archives/fedora-extras-list/2005-June/msg01007.html
The general case, not necessarily this specific package. I know Warren is working on a new bugzilla-based package submission process, which should help, but someone needs to make sure that valuable contributions aren't just ignored without any comment.
This isn't a marketing issue; it's an execution issue for the Fedora Extras team.
--g
_____________________ ____________________________________________ Greg DeKoenigsberg ] [ the future masters of technology will have Community Relations ] [ to be lighthearted and intelligent. the Red Hat ] [ machine easily masters the grim and the ] [ dumb. --mcluhan
On Thu, Jun 30, 2005 at 10:35:18AM -0400, Greg DeKoenigsberg wrote:
working on a new bugzilla-based package submission process, which should help, but someone needs to make sure that valuable contributions aren't just ignored without any comment.
This isn't a marketing issue; it's an execution issue for the Fedora Extras team.
It may not be a *promotional* issue, like the letter jackets and the pins and the hats and the balloons, but it *is* a marketing issue. As someone said earlier, Fedora marketing should be based in honesty. If we want to market the Fedora project to potential contributors, we *can't* just be ignoring people after they jump through all sorts of hoops to actually try to help.
Working to make the project match what the intended audience really needs is essential. If you're trying to market to "a few thousand knowledgeable advocates", the *best* thing do to is make their contributions feel valuable and wanted. This is *far* more powerful than "swag" and other gimmicks.
On Thu, 30 Jun 2005, Matthew Miller wrote:
It may not be a *promotional* issue, like the letter jackets and the pins and the hats and the balloons, but it *is* a marketing issue. As someone said earlier, Fedora marketing should be based in honesty. If we want to market the Fedora project to potential contributors, we *can't* just be ignoring people after they jump through all sorts of hoops to actually try to help.
Working to make the project match what the intended audience really needs is essential. If you're trying to market to "a few thousand knowledgeable advocates", the *best* thing do to is make their contributions feel valuable and wanted. This is *far* more powerful than "swag" and other gimmicks.
Point well taken.
My point, though, is that we *know* it's a problem -- a major problem -- and it's already on the plate of the Extras committee to solve that problem.
--g
_____________________ ____________________________________________ Greg DeKoenigsberg ] [ the future masters of technology will have Community Relations ] [ to be lighthearted and intelligent. the Red Hat ] [ machine easily masters the grim and the ] [ dumb. --mcluhan
On Thu, 2005-06-30 at 10:24 -0400, Matthew Miller wrote:
On Wed, Jun 29, 2005 at 12:26:38PM -0400, Greg DeKoenigsberg wrote:
what I think of when I think about this list of people. I think of much more basic stuff: tell people what's good about Fedora, and why they should use it, and most importantly, why they should *participate*. I'm not interested in having 10 gazillion users; I'm interested in having a few thousand knowledgable advocates. The user base will take care of itself.
I think we need to work on solving this problem:
https://www.redhat.com/archives/fedora-extras-list/2005-June/msg01007.html
Matt, This is coming up in the Fedora Extras Steering Committee and when we have some more progress on it - be assured it'll be in the minutes that are posted.
cool?
-sv
On Thu, Jun 30, 2005 at 12:28:20PM -0400, seth vidal wrote:
I think we need to work on solving this problem: https://www.redhat.com/archives/fedora-extras-list/2005-June/msg01007.html
This is coming up in the Fedora Extras Steering Committee and when we have some more progress on it - be assured it'll be in the minutes that are posted. cool?
Yes, very. Thanks.
If you want statistics, I can come up with them. I did this study and regardless of what you think of me - I know more about this that you do. You know squat and you can't put a community back together with your immature approach, regardless of how much you think you know and have experienced elsewhere.
Why should we take your word for any of this?
You're claiming to be an expert on it but what credentials can you provide?
-sv
On Thu, 2005-06-23 at 13:25 -0400, seth vidal wrote:
If you want statistics, I can come up with them. I did this study and regardless of what you think of me - I know more about this that you do. You know squat and you can't put a community back together with your immature approach, regardless of how much you think you know and have experienced elsewhere.
Why should we take your word for any of this?
Don't. Because I really don't care if you do.
You're claiming to be an expert on it but what credentials can you provide?
If you don't know that, it proves my point as to the lack of information with which people on this list work.
-sv
On Thu, 2005-06-23 at 12:48 -0500, Tom Adelstein wrote:
On Thu, 2005-06-23 at 13:25 -0400, seth vidal wrote:
If you want statistics, I can come up with them. I did this study and regardless of what you think of me - I know more about this that you do. You know squat and you can't put a community back together with your immature approach, regardless of how much you think you know and have experienced elsewhere.
Why should we take your word for any of this?
Don't. Because I really don't care if you do.
You're claiming to be an expert on it but what credentials can you provide?
If you don't know that, it proves my point as to the lack of information with which people on this list work.
I wasn't being snide or sarcastic. I thought you had decided to email this list b/c you wanted to help. I don't like accepting claims about data w/o seeing the data or at least w/o knowing the background of the people making the claim. I work in a physics department, they get picky about that sort of thing. :)
So, no, I don't know who you are but I admit to not knowing everyone.
So do you wanna tell me anymore about yourself and how you got your data?
thanks, -sv
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