10:08 a.m.
New subject: [Fedora-marketing-list] Re: Slashdot interview with Fedora Project leader Max Spevack
Il giorno 18/ago/06, alle ore 16:34, Rahul ha scritto:
Does the interview actually ends up with Max saying "Which is why I
think a lot of the OSS "religious wars" don't make a lot of sense." ??
If so i am a bit disappointed :-)
That's because on the last question "Have you tried Ubuntu yourself?
Is there, in your opinion, something Ubuntu does better than Fedora?"
Max didn't actually answered.
He cites the main site/wiki efficency and the fist second impression
of a missing NetworkManager but then he omits to talk about the
obvious better "dektop experience" for Ubuntu users (fade effects,
fast user switching, general graphical consinstency [1]).
Ubuntu was born to be, and it's still developed to be, "Linux for
Human Beings". Like my mom, or my friend which has studied
literature, or anyone. Fedora is a 360° open pourpouse distribution.
With time and skill you can turn it into anything you like or want it
to be.
If that's our goal fine, go ahead.
If we want to appeal more and more people, and to get them come to
use we should think new strategies, the couple that comes to my mind
are (i think) near the actual Board goals (as stated in the interview):
- the Core + Extras + Community package separation should be clearly
resolved.
The Ubuntu or Mandriva approach is (to me) the winner: core (as
universe or main) + extras (multiverse or contrib) + jpackage (java
related) + PLF/non-free and STOP. No more livna/rpmforge dualism, nor
a dozen self referring repo for a specific task (each one on his server)
- some enhancements in the graphical behaviour of our window managers
(but i'd like to talk about them in the desktop list).
Hope that my english was not too rusty to be understood.
--
Nicola .:kOoLiNuS:. Losito
http://koolinus.wordpress.com
http://www.koolinus.net
10:24 a.m.
New subject: [Fedora-marketing-list] Re: Slashdot interview with Fedora Project leader Max Spevack
Nicola Losito wrote:
Il giorno 18/ago/06, alle ore 16:34, Rahul ha scritto:
> Hi
>
> http://interviews.slashdot.org/interviews/06/08/17/177220.shtml
Does the interview actually ends up with Max saying "Which is why I
think a lot of the OSS "religious wars" don't make a lot of sense."
??
If so i am a bit disappointed :-)
You want religious wars? Dont be silly.
That's because on the last question "Have you tried Ubuntu
yourself? Is
there, in your opinion, something Ubuntu does better than Fedora?" Max
didn't actually answered.
He cites the main site/wiki efficency and the fist second impression of
a missing NetworkManager but then he omits to talk about the obvious
better "dektop experience" for Ubuntu users (fade effects, fast user
switching, general graphical consinstency [1]).
I cant see any obviously better desktop experience. I suppose Max
Spevack didnt see one that is worth pointing out as a major difference
either.
Cant talk about what fade effects and general graphical consistency
since they are not specific enough for me to understand what you are
referring to.
The implementation of fast user switching has problems with multi user
terminals so its hidden by default in the menu. You can of course enable
it yourself if the problems dont affect your usage.
https://bugzilla.redhat.com/bugzilla/show_bug.cgi?id=175178
Other related bug reports
https://bugzilla.redhat.com/bugzilla/show_bug.cgi?id=186685
https://bugzilla.redhat.com/bugzilla/show_bug.cgi?id=186685
All of these were documented by me in
http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Bugs/FC5Common linked from the release notes.
Ubuntu was born to be, and it's still developed to be, "Linux for Human
Beings".
I dont adore that quote. What are we developing Fedora for if not human
beings or are people who use other distributions aliens? ;-)
Like my mom, or my friend which has studied literature, or
anyone. Fedora is a 360° open pourpouse distribution. With time and
skill you can turn it into anything you like or want it to be.
If that's our goal fine, go ahead.
To the right amount of balance yes. The perl quote is appropriate here.
"Making simple things easy, and difficult things possible"
If we want to appeal more and more people, and to get them come to use
we should think new strategies, the couple that comes to my mind are (i
think) near the actual Board goals (as stated in the interview):
- the Core + Extras + Community package separation should be clearly
resolved.
The Ubuntu or Mandriva approach is (to me) the winner: core (as universe
or main) + extras (multiverse or contrib) + jpackage (java related) +
PLF/non-free and STOP. No more livna/rpmforge dualism, nor a dozen self
referring repo for a specific task (each one on his server)
Core+Extras universe similar to other distributions already exist.
Jpackage is already a common repository. Livna exists as a third party
repository since Fedora does not support or include non-free software
within the distribution.
What we are doing is moving is *away* from the model of multiple
repositories into a single unified repository. Not dozens. Not even two.
Just one single repository. Of course every distribution has third party
repositories and we cant nor do we need to do anything about that.
- some enhancements in the graphical behaviour of our window managers
(but i'd like to talk about them in the desktop list).
Yes. Please do and be very specific.
Rahul
5:03 p.m.
New subject: [Fedora-marketing-list] Re: Slashdot interview with Fedora Project leader Max Spevack
Il giorno 21/ago/06, alle ore 17:24, Rahul ha scritto:
Nicola Losito wrote:
>>
>> http://interviews.slashdot.org/interviews/06/08/17/177220.shtml
> Does the interview actually ends up with Max saying "Which is why
> I think a lot of the OSS "religious wars" don't make a lot of
> sense." ??
> If so i am a bit disappointed :-)
You want religious wars? Dont be silly.
Uhm, let me clarify ... I was disappointed by the sudden end of the
interiew, not for the missed useless whatever war :-)
Having clarified that ..... let me move on the rest.
Please keep in mind that english is not my first language, and
probably i am driven to use some "weird" way of saying things (not to
mention grammar mistakes). So keeping in mind that i like and endorse
the work in Fedora i ask my reader to try to catch my points ....
> That's because on the last question "Have you tried
Ubuntu
> yourself? Is there, in your opinion, something Ubuntu does better
> than Fedora?" Max didn't actually answered.
> He cites the main site/wiki efficency and the fist second
> impression of a missing NetworkManager but then he omits to talk
> about the obvious better "dektop experience" for Ubuntu users
> (fade effects, fast user switching, general graphical consinstency
> [1]).
I cant see any obviously better desktop experience. I suppose Max
Spevack didnt see one that is worth pointing out as a major
difference either.
This is a very "tech" way to say things. Like man pages, if something
is worth mention it's written in the man page.
Unfortunately I see/feel life being different than that.
When you install and run Ubuntu you got enabled a bunch of features
that doesn't make feel the user on his own (Gnome sounds enabled,
when i'm supposed to enter the sudo password the screen goes dark
leaving only the appropriate window "illuminated" and some other
fancier - yes, useless, but fancier things).
Generally i see that "heavy" or "experienced" Linux user doesn't
bother too much with this kind of thematic (like me with video
proprietary drivers, never installed them, never got to see if i
could get a benefit from them). For sure in 10 minutes the 90% of FC
contributor can take them on at will. But then again the average Joe
feels these fancier tricks enabled and running since the first boot
like "attention to details" (again, seeing people's reaction around me).
The implementation of fast user switching has problems with multi
user terminals so its hidden by default in the menu. You can of
course enable it yourself if the problems dont affect your usage.
https://bugzilla.redhat.com/bugzilla/show_bug.cgi?id=175178
I already had an answer some time ago with this topic, but haven't go
the time to read more and then try to make it work for myself. My
point is that the other distro i enjoy "testing" have it and reading
the answer "it's in bugzilla since $date" doesn't make nice impression.
It's clear that's a minor "bug", but i can see many people with
always on internet connection leaving their session opened, locking
their session when they're not at home and leaving a login screen
available to parents for a second graphical use of the machine.
Comfortable feature, if you think.
> Ubuntu was born to be, and it's still developed to be,
"Linux for
> Human Beings".
I dont adore that quote. What are we developing Fedora for if not
human beings or are people who use other distributions aliens? ;-)
Sometimes seems so .... have you ever tried using yum, with 3rd
parties repos enabled, on a 56k pay-per-time line ? ?
Back when i was one of those FC seemed to me a distro for privileged
aliens with fast/flat connections.
> If we want to appeal more and more people, and to get them come
to
> use we should think new strategies, the couple that comes to my
> mind are (i think) near the actual Board goals (as stated in the
> interview):
> - the Core + Extras + Community package separation should be
> clearly resolved.
> The Ubuntu or Mandriva approach is (to me) the winner: core (as
> universe or main) + extras (multiverse or contrib) + jpackage
> (java related) + PLF/non-free and STOP. No more livna/rpmforge
> dualism, nor a dozen self referring repo for a specific task (each
> one on his server)
Core+Extras universe similar to other distributions already exist.
Jpackage is already a common repository. Livna exists as a third
party repository since Fedora does not support or include non-free
software within the distribution.
Here i could make a mistake but:
- http://www.ubuntu.com/ubuntu/components
it's clear in the division of what's "ubuntu" or "canonical"
and
what's not and also ...
What we are doing is moving is *away* from the model of multiple
repositories into a single unified repository. Not dozens. Not even
two. Just one single repository. Of course every distribution has
third party repositories and we cant nor do we need to do anything
about that.
3rd party repo are natural in our free software world, everyone has
different needs and preferences.
What i find "insane" {meaning not healthy, not referring to the crazy
meaning} is the actual separation in Extras (which thanks to God and
all the good people out there is growing each and every day in
package number) and then the "Two Towers" of Livna "vs" dag-dries-
freshrpms world and the experiences coming from a partial use of them
or worst an "enabled=1" of all of them.
Fedora Project should speak loud on this inconsistency (for the
record i have 14 different repositories in my yum.repos.d, some
enabled some not, and i do not think it's easy to get the reason of
this to the "non introduced").
These are part of the "problems" i have to talk to friends online
(and not), also in my LUG, when referring to why choose Fedora
distribution for installation, so these are topic i'm interested to
study in my little and fragmented spare time.
--
Nicola .:kOoLiNuS:. Losito
http://www.koolinus.net
http://koolinus.wordpress.com
11:16 p.m.
New subject: [Fedora-marketing-list] Re: Slashdot interview with Fedora Project leader Max Spevack
Nicola Losito wrote:
When you install and run Ubuntu you got enabled a bunch of features that
doesn't make feel the user on his own (Gnome sounds enabled, when i'm
supposed to enter the sudo password the screen goes dark leaving only
the appropriate window "illuminated" and some other fancier - yes,
useless, but fancier things).
So boils down to eye candy basically.
> The implementation of fast user switching has problems with multi user
> terminals so its hidden by default in the menu. You can of course
> enable it yourself if the problems dont affect your usage.
>
> https://bugzilla.redhat.com/bugzilla/show_bug.cgi?id=175178
I already had an answer some time ago with this topic, but haven't go
the time to read more and then try to make it work for myself. My point
is that the other distro i enjoy "testing" have it and reading the
answer "it's in bugzilla since $date" doesn't make nice impression.
It's clear that's a minor "bug", but i can see many people with always
on internet connection leaving their session opened, locking their
session when they're not at home and leaving a login screen available to
parents for a second graphical use of the machine. Comfortable feature,
if you think.
Its not really a minor bug. If you have multiple users working on a
console, how does device permissions get set that one user doesnt lock
the other?
Sometimes seems so .... have you ever tried using yum, with 3rd
parties
repos enabled, on a 56k pay-per-time line ? ?
Back when i was one of those FC seemed to me a distro for privileged
aliens with fast/flat connections.
Why would I? I dont use third party repositories. If I need to work on
dialups, there is a way to configure yum to use local repositories or
media and Fedora might not be the right choice for me at that point.
Here i could make a mistake but:
- http://www.ubuntu.com/ubuntu/components
it's clear in the division of what's "ubuntu" or "canonical"
and what's
not and also ...
It is pretty simple for Fedora and it is documented in Fedora wiki
pages. Fedora Core is maintained by Red Hat and Fedora Extras, Fedora
Legacy is community maintained.
3rd party repo are natural in our free software world, everyone has
different needs and preferences.
What i find "insane" {meaning not healthy, not referring to the crazy
meaning} is the actual separation in Extras (which thanks to God and all
the good people out there is growing each and every day in package
number) and then the "Two Towers" of Livna "vs" dag-dries-freshrpms
world and the experiences coming from a partial use of them or worst an
"enabled=1" of all of them.
All of these references are about third party repositories. Fedora
Project has absolutely no say on what goes on with them. The formal
repositories are both enabled by default, Anaconda would support them
both during installation from FC6 onwards and they follow the same
packaging guidelines etc. The differences are in the way there are
internally organized which doesnt affect the end user at all.
Fedora Project should speak loud on this inconsistency (for the record i
have 14 different repositories in my yum.repos.d, some enabled some not,
and i do not think it's easy to get the reason of this to the "non
introduced").
There is no inconsistency at the project level and we cant control third
party repositories. There are contributors from kde-redhat, freshrpms,
atrpms,newrpms and other repositories working in Fedora Extras to . Dag
doesnt seem to host Fedora repositories anymore. Nrpms closed down
citing the increasing community participating in Fedora Extras.
Rpmforge has announced compatibility with Fedora Core and Fedora Extras.
Things are getting better but if you want to install random repositories
that's really your choice.
Rahul
2:36 a.m.
New subject: [Fedora-marketing-list] Re: Slashdot interview with Fedora Project leader Max Spevack
Il giorno 22/ago/06, alle ore 06:16, Rahul ha scritto:
Nicola Losito wrote:
> When you install and run Ubuntu you got enabled a bunch of
> features that doesn't make feel the user on his own (Gnome sounds
> enabled, when i'm supposed to enter the sudo password the screen
> goes dark leaving only the appropriate window "illuminated" and
> some other fancier - yes, useless, but fancier things).
So boils down to eye candy basically.
Nope.
It boild down paying attention to fancier, little, useful visual and
"desktop" tricks, that enhance user experience (hidden window asking
for root password instead of something that focuses the attention and
so on ...
> Sometimes seems so .... have you ever tried using yum, with 3rd
> parties repos enabled, on a 56k pay-per-time line ? ?
> Back when i was one of those FC seemed to me a distro for
> privileged aliens with fast/flat connections.
Why would I? I dont use third party repositories.
Not a viable solution for a lot of people, and not realistic to think
that *now* anyone would drop the use of something they're accoustomed
to have (IMHO). Also, even if Livna or RPMforge are not official
"endorsed", in the Fedora users I know *everyone* who's got it
installed on a personal desktop have got them enabled. So ignoring
their exsitence for me is "childish" ... for the lack of a better
word of my knowledge :-(
If I need to work on dialups, there is a way to configure yum to
use local repositories
Provided you can manage to get one in some other way ;-)
and Fedora might not be the right choice for me at that point.
And this isn't a point to be worked on ?
The 90% of people haven't got a nice connection, do we want to cut
them out _also_ because we haven't thought a way to go in their
"direction" ??
Italy, one of the 7th most rich and industrialized country in the
world has still no fibre connection, and *DSL are "slow", strongly
asymetrical and most of the time people have got pay per hours
connections.
What in Eastern Europe ? South America ? and so on ...
> Here i could make a mistake but:
> - http://www.ubuntu.com/ubuntu/components
> it's clear in the division of what's "ubuntu" or
"canonical" and
> what's not and also ...
It is pretty simple for Fedora and it is documented in Fedora wiki
pages. Fedora Core is maintained by Red Hat and Fedora Extras,
Fedora Legacy is community maintained.
OK
but to me it seems you're avoiding to see my point :-)
In universe / multiverse we have 99% of any additional software one
can use.
Then we can se "backports" (and these are self explainatory) a
"commercial" repo by Canonical (which get some way of agreement to
distribute Opera or Real with contracts that - i think - could be
obtained by any distro provided there's interest into it - Skype in
Mandriva installation media comes to my mind too). The rest of
"ubuntu 3rd party repos" are for "elite" needs into specific areas.
For Fedora we have (at least) the repos listed here:
http://www.fedoratracker.org/tracker.py?mode=repoSearch
where there's no clear policy of what goes where.
All of these references are about third party repositories. Fedora
Project has absolutely no say on what goes on with them.
> Fedora Project should speak loud on this inconsistency (for the
> record i have 14 different repositories in my yum.repos.d, some
> enabled some not, and i do not think it's easy to get the reason
> of this to the "non introduced").
There is no inconsistency at the project level and we cant control
third party repositories.
I know Fedora can't drive anyone into anything.
But there could be a strict policy on how to provide packages for the
distro. This issue i think it's related to the licences present in FC
that's been discussed some (recent) time ago here or in the board list.
When the licence's type area will become more "clear" we should find
a way to make people come into Extras or to Extras-nonfree (to say)
instead of making their "personal" repo, summoning up the community
efforts in few areas.
I'd like my distro to have the major number of precompiled packages
available, no matter what.
Things are getting better but if you want to install random
repositories that's really your choice.
Indeed. But if I need these repos to get the software i need /want to
test to run my machine productively and i have permanent, several
issues with them i'll change my distro.
Again Fedora has come close to my need with 5 and it's mono inclusion
and such, but still it's too "complicated" to make it run on many of
my friend's machines since the issues i see using the various repos
(or yum when they're with slow lines).
I have been present at the times at Fedora and at the time for
Ubuntu, and they since the beginning have fought to be stable as
Debian and easy as RH/SuSE.
Fedora has been (to cite Max's word) "We strive to produce a quality
distribution of free software that is cutting-edge, pushes the
envelope of new open source technology, and is also robust enough
that it can be relied on for server or desktop use."
To me it somewhat sounds like "Fedora is an hacker toy, build to
pleasure is quest for knowledge without crashing every now and then",
which is fine, but then at some point I, as user, and many like me i
think, may leave this land.
Thanks for reading :-)
--
Nicola .:kOoLiNuS:. Losito
http://www.koolinus.net
http://koolinus.wordpress.com
2:56 a.m.
New subject: [Fedora-marketing-list] Re: Slashdot interview with Fedora Project leader Max Spevack
Nicola Losito wrote:
Il giorno 22/ago/06, alle ore 06:16, Rahul ha scritto:
> So boils down to eye candy basically.
Nope.
It boild down paying attention to fancier, little, useful visual and
"desktop" tricks, that enhance user experience (hidden window asking for
root password instead of something that focuses the attention and so on ...
And even if it was "just" eye candy, having eye candy is not a bad
thing, it is important for a lot of people.
[...]
> and Fedora might not be the right choice for me at that point.
And this isn't a point to be worked on ?
The 90% of people haven't got a nice connection, do we want to cut them
out _also_ because we haven't thought a way to go in their "direction" ??
Italy, one of the 7th most rich and industrialized country in the world
has still no fibre connection, and *DSL are "slow", strongly asymetrical
and most of the time people have got pay per hours connections.
What in Eastern Europe ? South America ? and so on ...
Eastern Europe? Where I live options for _home users_ are either slow
and unreliable neighborhood LAN or slow CATV.
--
nicu
Cool Fedora wallpapers: http://fedora.nicubunu.ro/wallpapers/
Open Clip Art Library: http://www.openclipart.org
my Fedora stuff: http://fedora.nicubunu.ro
5:09 a.m.
New subject: [Fedora-marketing-list] Re: Slashdot interview with Fedora Project leader Max Spevack
Nicola Losito wrote:
Il giorno 22/ago/06, alle ore 06:16, Rahul ha scritto:
> Nicola Losito wrote:
>
>> When you install and run Ubuntu you got enabled a bunch of features
>> that doesn't make feel the user on his own (Gnome sounds enabled,
>> when i'm supposed to enter the sudo password the screen goes dark
>> leaving only the appropriate window "illuminated" and some other
>> fancier - yes, useless, but fancier things).
>
> So boils down to eye candy basically.
Nope.
It boild down paying attention to fancier, little, useful visual and
"desktop" tricks, that enhance user experience (hidden window asking for
root password instead of something that focuses the attention and so on ...
Are you referring to new dialog boxes that does not receive focus
immediately? Thats a GNOME feature and has been in Fedora for the last
couple of releases.
Why would I? I dont use third party repositories.
Not a viable solution for a lot of people, and not realistic to think
that *now* anyone would drop the use of something they're accoustomed to
have (IMHO). Also, even if Livna or RPMforge are not official
"endorsed", in the Fedora users I know *everyone* who's got it installed
on a personal desktop have got them enabled. So ignoring their exsitence
for me is "childish" ... for the lack of a better word of my knowledge :-(
What should we do about them? We cant officially endorse any third party
repository especially ones that carry non-free software.
> and Fedora might not be the right choice for me at that point.
And this isn't a point to be worked on ?
The 90% of people haven't got a nice connection, do we want to cut them
out _also_ because we haven't thought a way to go in their "direction" ??
Italy, one of the 7th most rich and industrialized country in the world
has still no fibre connection, and *DSL are "slow", strongly asymetrical
and most of the time people have got pay per hours connections.
What in Eastern Europe ? South America ? and so on ...
Yum and Pirut is getting support to access and install packages from
media. Pup is getting the ability to classify packages.
https://bugzilla.redhat.com/bugzilla/show_bug.cgi?id=188750
http://www.csh.rit.edu/~lewk/blog/2006/08/15/pup_enhancements
This wouldnt solve the problem of getting updates over a dial up
connection.
>> Here i could make a mistake but:
>> - http://www.ubuntu.com/ubuntu/components
>> it's clear in the division of what's "ubuntu" or
"canonical" and
>> what's not and also ...
>
> It is pretty simple for Fedora and it is documented in Fedora wiki
> pages. Fedora Core is maintained by Red Hat and Fedora Extras, Fedora
> Legacy is community maintained.
OK
but to me it seems you're avoiding to see my point :-)
Just that your point was perhaps not clear to me.
In universe / multiverse we have 99% of any additional software one can use.
Then we can se "backports" (and these are self explainatory) a
"commercial" repo by Canonical (which get some way of agreement to
distribute Opera or Real with contracts that - i think - could be
obtained by any distro provided there's interest into it - Skype in
Mandriva installation media comes to my mind too). The rest of "ubuntu
3rd party repos" are for "elite" needs into specific areas.
Again we dont support or include any software repositories that hold
non-free software. Other than that I dont see any difference.
For Fedora we have (at least) the repos listed here:
http://www.fedoratracker.org/tracker.py?mode=repoSearch
where there's no clear policy of what goes where.
This is a community side which tracks all third party repositories. For
formal repositories included with Fedora we have clear policies
http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Packaging/Guidelines
I know Fedora can't drive anyone into anything.
But there could be a strict policy on how to provide packages for the
distro.
For repositories included within Fedora there is one already as you can
see above.
This issue i think it's related to the licences present in FC
that's been discussed some (recent) time ago here or in the board
list.
When the licence's type area will become more "clear" we should find a
way to make people come into Extras or to Extras-nonfree (to say)
instead of making their "personal" repo, summoning up the community
efforts in few areas.
I'd like my distro to have the major number of precompiled packages
available, no matter what.
Fedora Project will only include Free and open source software.
> Things are getting better but if you want to install random
> repositories that's really your choice.
Indeed. But if I need these repos to get the software i need /want to
test to run my machine productively and i have permanent, several issues
with them i'll change my distro.
If install random repositories and have permanent issues with them you
should discuss those issues with the repository maintainers.
Again Fedora has come close to my need with 5 and it's mono inclusion
and such, but still it's too "complicated" to make it run on many of my
friend's machines since the issues i see using the various repos (or yum
when they're with slow lines).
I have been present at the times at Fedora and at the time for Ubuntu,
and they since the beginning have fought to be stable as Debian and easy
as RH/SuSE.
Fedora has been (to cite Max's word) "We strive to produce a quality
distribution of free software that is cutting-edge, pushes the envelope
of new open source technology, and is also robust enough that it can be
relied on for server or desktop use."
To me it somewhat sounds like "Fedora is an hacker toy, build to
pleasure is quest for knowledge without crashing every now and then",
which is fine, but then at some point I, as user, and many like me i
think, may leave this land.
Thats a very strange way to read it. Being a robust platform for Free
software is the opposite to a crashing hacker's toy.
Rahul
7:54 a.m.
New subject: [Fedora-marketing-list] Re: Slashdot interview with Fedora Project leader Max Spevack
Il giorno 23/ago/06, alle ore 12:09, Rahul ha scritto:
> OK
> but to me it seems you're avoiding to see my point :-)
Just that your point was perhaps not clear to me.
It's a pity, because Gian Paolo has understood me, maybe his words
are more clear than mine:
[GPM original message]
However now knowing that Fedora is "no longer" a "Linux power user/
enthusiast" distro any more (or so I deduce from some of the postings
and points made by Rahul), I'd really be interested, as I tended to
think that two niches were covered by either Ubuntu and Fedora.
Fedora being more like Gentoo (without the whole "build it thyself"
aspect) and being a distribution that could appeal easily to both GUI-
inclined power users and CLI hardcore power users; while Ubuntu is
usually associated with Linux-newbie users.
[end of GPM original message]
And also:
[GPM message]
Personally I'm always game for a solution and tool which would make
setting something up easy and fast (usually this is associated with
GUI tools), just as long as what it allows me to control is all I
need to control, i.e, no further configuration/tweaking is required.
[/end of GPM message]
Given that "non free" or "troble maker" packages has to stay away
from RedHat owned network (and so it's mirror) i then ask:
- how comes there's so muck fragmentation in Extras, Livna, RPMforge
and on
- how can we ecourage them to put as much free software package in
Extras leaving few non-GPL on an unique "non free" repos
Also, I'm ignorant, but it would be nice to have a Fedora-NONUS
repository for those who live outside the USA (a la Debian).
I am insisting on package management policies becaus they are (for
me, clearly) the strongest point of the Free Software movement and
the easy availability of them could "convert" as much people as
possibile (and here we are in marketing list, trying to "sell" our
distro).
When i have the occasion to let try "Linux" to some friend quite
never I am in the condition to make him try Fedora, principally for
the reason explained before. I would like to change that, and after
the ease of installation comes the package available to the user and
the configuration tool at disposal.
--
Nicola .:kOoLiNuS:. Losito
http://www.koolinus.net
http://koolinus.wordpress.com
8:23 a.m.
New subject: [Fedora-marketing-list] Re: Slashdot interview with Fedora Project leader Max Spevack
Nicola Losito wrote:
Given that "non free" or "troble maker" packages has to stay away
from
RedHat owned network (and so it's mirror) i then ask:
- how comes there's so muck fragmentation in Extras, Livna, RPMforge and on
Livna has non-free packages and Fedora Extras does not carry non-free
packages though they are compatible with each other. RPMForge is a third
party repository that has a goal on creating packages that work on many
other distributions other than Fedora and hence cannot be merged with
Fedora Extras. However they too are compatible with Fedora Extras
http://rpmforge.net/user/faq/#compatibility-and-mixing
- how can we ecourage them to put as much free software package in
Extras leaving few non-GPL on an unique "non free" repos
Many of the maintainers working on both these repositories contribute to
Fedora Extras too but a merge for above cited reasons cannot be done. In
short we have different goals but work on common grounds wherever
possible. That is the opposite of fragmentation to me.
Also, I'm ignorant, but it would be nice to have a Fedora-NONUS
repository for those who live outside the USA (a la Debian).
We dont want any non-free repositories associated with Fedora at all and
that is unlikely to change considering our objectives. This is not just
a question of what is allowed legally.
http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Objectives
I am insisting on package management policies becaus they are (for me,
clearly) the strongest point of the Free Software movement and the easy
availability of them could "convert" as much people as possibile (and
here we are in marketing list, trying to "sell" our distro).
We already have good package management policies that is shared by
Fedora Core, Fedora Extras (and RHEL) and a entire committee devoted to
tackling those issues on a periodic basis on the fedora-packaging list
as well as weekly IRC meetings and keeping our guidelines updated.
http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Packaging/Guidelines
http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Packaging/Committee
When i have the occasion to let try "Linux" to some friend quite never I
am in the condition to make him try Fedora, principally for the reason
explained before. I would like to change that, and after the ease of
installation comes the package available to the user and the
configuration tool at disposal.
Pirut, Pup and Puplet along with yum should provide much of the user
friendliness in dealing with software packages at this point. If you are
suggesting that we adopt non-free packages, that is unlikely to be
entertained.
Rahul
1:49 p.m.
New subject: [Fedora-marketing-list] Re: Slashdot interview with Fedora Project leader Max Spevack
On Wed, 2006-08-23 at 14:54 +0200, Nicola Losito wrote:
[GPM original message] However now knowing that Fedora is "no
longer"
a "Linux power user/enthusiast" distro any more (or so I deduce from
some of the postings and points made by Rahul), I'd really be
interested, as I tended to think that two niches were covered by
either Ubuntu and Fedora.
wtf is a power user distro anyway?
You can call something a newbie distro, as newbies have a limited skill
set, and are used to doing things a certain way... (*cough* winblows
*cough*)
But A poweruser distro?
A true power user may sit and compile Linux From Scratch. A power user
can just as easily make a stable system out of a live CD.
What I'm trying to say is,
there is no such thing as a distro for power users.
Power users need tools, and all linux distros provide the same, or
really similar tools. Fedora is no exception.
Gja
3:19 p.m.
New subject: [Fedora-marketing-list] Re: Slashdot interview with Fedora Project leader Max Spevack
Tejas Dinkar wrote:
On Wed, 2006-08-23 at 14:54 +0200, Nicola Losito wrote:
> [GPM original message] However now knowing that Fedora is "no longer"
> a "Linux power user/enthusiast" distro any more (or so I deduce from
> some of the postings and points made by Rahul), I'd really be
> interested, as I tended to think that two niches were covered by
> either Ubuntu and Fedora.
wtf is a power user distro anyway?
You can call something a newbie distro, as newbies have a limited skill
set, and are used to doing things a certain way... (*cough* winblows
*cough*)
But A poweruser distro?
A true power user may sit and compile Linux From Scratch. A power user
can just as easily make a stable system out of a live CD.
What I'm trying to say is,
there is no such thing as a distro for power users.
Power users need tools, and all linux distros provide the same, or
really similar tools. Fedora is no exception.
Usually it boils down to a basic question: How much of the distribution
can I tweak to meet my preferences without touching the source code (on
the command line too) ?
For example, see the question on dependency bloat from Max Spevack's
slashdot interview.
Rahul
4:11 p.m.
New subject: [Fedora-marketing-list] Re: Slashdot interview with FedoraProjectleader Max Spevack
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
Hash: SHA1
Tejas Dinkar escribió:
On Wed, 2006-08-23 at 14:54 +0200, Nicola Losito wrote:
> [GPM original message] However now knowing that Fedora is "no
> longer" a "Linux power user/enthusiast" distro any more (or so I
> deduce from some of the postings and points made by Rahul), I'd
> really be interested, as I tended to think that two niches were
> covered by either Ubuntu and Fedora.
wtf is a power user distro anyway?
You can call something a newbie distro, as newbies have a limited
skill set, and are used to doing things a certain way... (*cough*
winblows *cough*)
But A poweruser distro?
A true power user may sit and compile Linux From Scratch. A power
user can just as easily make a stable system out of a live CD.
That would be Linux
hardcore user... Power users are not
hackers/programmers, only ordinary users with a lot of knowledge of
the system. They feel comfortable compiling stuff, yes, but as anyone
would also tell you, they also like the advantages of having things
pre-made.
What I'm trying to say is, there is no such thing as a distro for
power users.
Power users need tools, and all linux distros provide the same, or
really similar tools. Fedora is no exception.
Gja
Indeed. However some make things "easier" than others for these
users,
or some others have a more "friendly" layout. I would have to agree
with Rahul here, it'd boil down to how much can you tweak without
touching the source/rebuilding (with -O3)
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Fe//3vOerIFvraRf14dVmAg=
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5:37 p.m.
New subject: [Fedora-marketing-list] Re: slashdot
Thought I'd chime in a little bit here:
>> That's because on the last question "Have you tried
Ubuntu yourself?
>> Is there, in your opinion, something Ubuntu does better than Fedora?"
>> Max didn't actually answered. He cites the main site/wiki efficency
>> and the fist second impression of a missing NetworkManager but then he
>> omits to talk about the obvious better "dektop experience" for Ubuntu
>> users (fade effects, fast user switching, general graphical
>> consinstency [1]).
I talked about it -- I think you disagree with my answer, but that's
perfectly fine!
We we run Gnome, and they run Gnome. To me, Gnome is Gnome. People might
tweak it a bit here and there, but it's basically the same across
distributions. If one distribution is making mager changes, then
shouldn't they be trying to move all of that upstream, in the spirit of
being a good open source citizen?
> Fedora does not support or include non-free software within the
> distribution.
That will never change.
Fedora Project should speak loud on this inconsistency (for the
record i
have 14 different repositories in my yum.repos.d, some enabled some not,
and i do not think it's easy to get the reason of this to the "non
introduced").
Wow. 14? What are you doing with 14 repos?
Core, Extras, and maybe 1 third party repo should be almost anything that
someone needs unless there's some very specialized work happening.
What benefit do you gain from so many additional repos? To me, that seems
like it would be a lot of trouble, and a recipe for instability in the
system.
--
Max Spevack
+ http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/MaxSpevack
+ gpg key -- http://spevack.org/max.asc
+ fingerprint -- CD52 5E72 369B B00D 9E9A 773E 2FDB CB46 5A17 CF21
8:17 p.m.
New subject: [Fedora-marketing-list] Re: slashdot
On Tue, Aug 22, 2006 at 06:37:26PM -0400, Max Spevack wrote:
Wow. 14? What are you doing with 14 repos?
Core, Extras, and maybe 1 third party repo should be almost anything that
someone needs unless there's some very specialized work happening.
Well, here's the repo count for your example:
core
core-debuginfo
core-source
development
development-debuginfo
development-source
extras-development
extras-development-debuginfo
extras-development-source
extras
extras-debuginfo
extras-source
legacy-updates
legacy-testing
updates
updates-debuginfo
updates-source
updates-testing
updates-testing-debuginfo
updates-testing-source
unnamedthirdparty-development
unnamedthirdparty-development-debuginfo
unnamedthirdparty-development-source
unnamedthirdparty
unnamedthirdparty-debuginfo
unnamedthirdparty-source
unnamedthirdparty-testing
unnamedthirdparty-testing-debug
unnamedthirdparty-testing-source
That's 29 right there. Some not enabled, but the earlier poster said some
weren't.
--
Matthew Miller mattdm(a)mattdm.org <http://mattdm.org/>
Boston University Linux ------> <http://linux.bu.edu/>
1:43 p.m.
New subject: [Fedora-marketing-list] Re: slashdot
On Tue, 2006-08-22 at 21:17 -0400, Matthew Miller wrote:
Well, here's the repo count for your example:
core
core-debuginfo
core-source
development
development-debuginfo
development-source
extras-development
extras-development-debuginfo
extras-development-source
extras
extras-debuginfo
extras-source
legacy-updates
legacy-testing
updates
updates-debuginfo
updates-source
updates-testing
updates-testing-debuginfo
updates-testing-source
unnamedthirdparty-development
unnamedthirdparty-development-debuginfo
unnamedthirdparty-development-source
unnamedthirdparty
unnamedthirdparty-debuginfo
unnamedthirdparty-source
unnamedthirdparty-testing
unnamedthirdparty-testing-debug
unnamedthirdparty-testing-source
You Do know that you have just given about 5 repos.
core-updates-development all have the same packages, just later versions
extras, extras-development are also the same
and you have one third party.
Source is if you want to install source code so you can compile
yourself. Testing is of course, unstable. Debug I'm not sure, but I
assume it is a debugger friendly version.
If you enabled all of these, your system is sure to break, really fast.
(and we call such a system rawhide ;)
Gja
1:51 p.m.
New subject: [Fedora-marketing-list] Re: slashdot
Tejas Dinkar wrote:
On Tue, 2006-08-22 at 21:17 -0400, Matthew Miller wrote:
> Well, here's the repo count for your example:
>
> core
> core-debuginfo
> core-source
> development
> development-debuginfo
> development-source
> extras-development
> extras-development-debuginfo
> extras-development-source
> extras
> extras-debuginfo
> extras-source
> legacy-updates
> legacy-testing
> updates
> updates-debuginfo
> updates-source
> updates-testing
> updates-testing-debuginfo
> updates-testing-source
> unnamedthirdparty-development
> unnamedthirdparty-development-debuginfo
> unnamedthirdparty-development-source
> unnamedthirdparty
> unnamedthirdparty-debuginfo
> unnamedthirdparty-source
> unnamedthirdparty-testing
> unnamedthirdparty-testing-debug
> unnamedthirdparty-testing-source
You Do know that you have just given about 5 repos.
core-updates-development all have the same packages, just later versions
extras, extras-development are also the same
and you have one third party.
Source is if you want to install source code so you can compile
yourself. Testing is of course, unstable. Debug I'm not sure, but I
assume it is a debugger friendly version.
http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Packaging/Debuginfo
Rahul
3:04 p.m.
New subject: [Fedora-marketing-list] Re: slashdot
On Thu, Aug 24, 2006 at 12:13:36AM +0530, Tejas Dinkar wrote:
On Tue, 2006-08-22 at 21:17 -0400, Matthew Miller wrote:
> Well, here's the repo count for your example:
> core
[snip everything]
You Do know that you have just given about 5 repos.
No. Do you?
core-updates-development all have the same packages, just later
versions
extras, extras-development are also the same
and you have one third party.
From yum's point of view, they are all defined as separate
repositories. If
you mean something different, it's confusing to use the same
terminology --
do you mean something like "package provider" or "vendor"?
--
Matthew Miller mattdm(a)mattdm.org <http://mattdm.org/>
Boston University Linux ------> <http://linux.bu.edu/>
5:11 p.m.
New subject: [Fedora-marketing-list] Re: slashdot
On 8/23/06, Matthew Miller <mattdm(a)mattdm.org> wrote:
>From yum's point of view, they are all defined as separate
repositories. If
you mean something different, it's confusing to use the same terminology --
do you mean something like "package provider" or "vendor"?
Here is the crux of the problem... we are working with evolving
terminology which is being used to describe evolving technology and
structures. Having 14 different repository definitions sitting in
several .repo files in the repo.d directory is not the problem. The
problem is making it drop-dead easy for everyone who cares to know WHY
we have all those definitions, instead of having one pile-on
repository. We need to make it so easy to understand why that even my
most hated and loathsome enemies, the technology reporter and
editors-in-chiefs of online 'news' sites about 'OS''s, can discovery
this information without being troubled with learning how to use
established online resources to ask questions of other human beings...
but I digress.
It needs to be clear to new users on the clientside why -testing and
-debuginfo and -devel are seperate and distinct entiries and why they
are provided but disabled. Once you know what these repos do, and
you are a rationale person ( an assumption easily broken), informed
choices will be made regarding whether or not to enable them. And if
Fedora is to be about anything.. it should strive to be about informed
choice.
-jef
6:18 p.m.
New subject: [Fedora-marketing-list] Re: slashdot
On Thu, Aug 24, 2006 at 10:11:41PM +0000, Jeff Spaleta wrote:
choices will be made regarding whether or not to enable them. And if
Fedora is to be about anything.. it should strive to be about informed
choice.
For aquatic mammals.
--
Matthew Miller mattdm(a)mattdm.org <http://mattdm.org/>
Boston University Linux ------> <http://linux.bu.edu/>
5:48 a.m.
New subject: [Fedora-marketing-list] Re: slashdot
So here i am again.
I've let settle down a little dust in the discussion with Raul.
From a Marketing point (yes, techicians ALL hates marketing) point
how can/want we "force" the developers to appeal more customers ?
And i do not mean professional ones which uses XEN or SElinux in a
"conscious" way, but everyday people. I mean the point & click
inclined to.
I might say to look on how Novell has worked on the desktop
experience of SLED starting from the openSUSE, there are some yards
of difference between the two projects.
From my point of view we can welcome more people:
- talking till come blue in the face of Fedora, of what's going on
and why (possibily);
- continuing this road of "disclosure" i am enjoying since Max has
come "the" chief :-P
- simplyfing the package management & retrieval (again to give a
slight idea i would *love* a hugest as possible fedora-extra repo, an
external FC-compatible non-US repository for packages that are
allowed almoust everywhere but not in the USA and a "Penguin
Liberation Front" style repo);
- answering in a clear and motivated way to people approaching ....
being told "your vision is wrong or different" is useless. We have to
suppose that people who subscribes here or another no help-desk list
has read and understood our "policies" and still has a different take
on them. Things are always perfectible (hope it's the right word) and
welcoming new ideas is not always bad. On the contrary to stick
obsessively with self made rules would end in a closed environment,
and we - i suppose - are for the Open.
- try to develop more friendly and unified "control center" .... now
for Fedora (and also Debian) i see a tendency to put this effort on
Gnome or KDE. I like the Mandriva Control Center and YaST approach,
and since someone told me YaST is smart enough to leave untouched
hand-modified files and since it has become GPL'd i would like other
distro approach and make it better than it is (as it's being done
with Smart Package management).
So, lunch is coming my way .... i'll stop bothering this list !
Thanks for reading ++ i do hope to have been "understandable"
--
Nicola .:kOoLiNuS:. Losito
http://koolinus.wordpress.com
ITA => http://www.koolinus.net
3:40 p.m.
New subject: [Fedora-marketing-list] Re: slashdot
Ya I really am saddened that no other distros have taken advantage of
YaST being open source. Everyone keeps wasting resources and
rebuilding when YaST is a good alternative and includes an ncurses gui
too. I really like YaST and is probably the reason I keep having a
hard time deciding between Fedora and openSUSE and keeping both of
them on my HD. Porting YaST should be way simpler for Fedora as it is
already RPM based. So many modules are there that rebuilding something
else just seems like a waste of time.
On 8/30/06, Nicola Losito <n.losito(a)yahoo.it> wrote:
So here i am again.
I've let settle down a little dust in the discussion with Raul.
From a Marketing point (yes, techicians ALL hates marketing) point how
can/want we "force" the developers to appeal more customers ?
And i do not mean professional ones which uses XEN or SElinux in a
"conscious" way, but everyday people. I mean the point & click inclined
to.
I might say to look on how Novell has worked on the desktop experience of
SLED starting from the openSUSE, there are some yards of difference between
the two projects.
From my point of view we can welcome more people:
- talking till come blue in the face of Fedora, of what's going on and why
(possibily);
- continuing this road of "disclosure" i am enjoying since Max has come
"the" chief :-P
- simplyfing the package management & retrieval (again to give a slight idea
i would *love* a hugest as possible fedora-extra repo, an external
FC-compatible non-US repository for packages that are allowed almoust
everywhere but not in the USA and a "Penguin Liberation Front" style repo);
- answering in a clear and motivated way to people approaching .... being
told "your vision is wrong or different" is useless. We have to suppose that
people who subscribes here or another no help-desk list has read and
understood our "policies" and still has a different take on them. Things are
always perfectible (hope it's the right word) and welcoming new ideas is not
always bad. On the contrary to stick obsessively with self made rules would
end in a closed environment, and we - i suppose - are for the Open.
- try to develop more friendly and unified "control center" .... now for
Fedora (and also Debian) i see a tendency to put this effort on Gnome or
KDE. I like the Mandriva Control Center and YaST approach, and since someone
told me YaST is smart enough to leave untouched hand-modified files and
since it has become GPL'd i would like other distro approach and make it
better than it is (as it's being done with Smart Package management).
So, lunch is coming my way .... i'll stop bothering this list !
Thanks for reading ++ i do hope to have been "understandable"
--
Nicola .:kOoLiNuS:. Losito
http://koolinus.wordpress.com
ITA => http://www.koolinus.net
--
Fedora-marketing-list mailing list
Fedora-marketing-list(a)redhat.com
https://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/fedora-marketing-list
--
Steve
8:50 a.m.
New subject: [Fedora-marketing-list] Re: slashdot
Steve Barnhart wrote:
Ya I really am saddened that no other distros have taken advantage
of
YaST being open source. Everyone keeps wasting resources and
rebuilding when YaST is a good alternative and includes an ncurses gui
too. I really like YaST and is probably the reason I keep having a
hard time deciding between Fedora and openSUSE and keeping both of
them on my HD. Porting YaST should be way simpler for Fedora as it is
already RPM based. So many modules are there that rebuilding something
else just seems like a waste of time.
I would love to see some people get together and do this. If there is
really interest in this, that would happen.
Rahul
1:57 p.m.
New subject: [Fedora-marketing-list] Re: slashdot
On 8/31/06, Rahul <sundaram(a)fedoraproject.org> wrote:
I would love to see some people get together and do this. If there
is
really interest in this, that would happen.
To put the issue of Yast into perspective... has any of its supporters
to date, since its licensing change, made any effort to get it
packaged in Extras? I don't know the answer to that for sure, but I
can't seem to find a reference saying it was attempted. Opinions as
to its usefulness aside, if the people who do want to see it in Fedora
can't support it enough to get it into Extras.. then that says
something significant. This isn't the first time Yast has come up in
the lists.
-jef"I'm looking for a sandwich spread with the taste of roast pork,
and the mouth-feel of peanut butter"spaleta
2:46 p.m.
New subject: [Fedora-marketing-list] Re: slashdot
Jeff Spaleta wrote:
On 8/31/06, Rahul <sundaram(a)fedoraproject.org> wrote:
> I would love to see some people get together and do this. If there is
> really interest in this, that would happen.
To put the issue of Yast into perspective... has any of its supporters
to date, since its licensing change, made any effort to get it
packaged in Extras? I don't know the answer to that for sure, but I
can't seem to find a reference saying it was attempted. Opinions as
to its usefulness aside, if the people who do want to see it in Fedora
can't support it enough to get it into Extras.. then that says
something significant. This isn't the first time Yast has come up in
the lists.
Nope. Nobody has which is precisely my claim. If anybody wanted it so
much, they would have to do the groundwork necessary. Simply claiming
that they would love to have yast in Fedora isnt going to work.
Rahul
2:29 a.m.
New subject: [Fedora-marketing-list] Re: slashdot
Il giorno 23/ago/06, alle ore 00:37, Max Spevack ha scritto:
>>> That's because on the last question "Have you
tried Ubuntu
>>> yourself? Is there, in your opinion, something Ubuntu does
>>> better than Fedora?" Max didn't actually answered. He cites the
>>> main site/wiki efficency and the fist second impression of a
>>> missing NetworkManager but then he omits to talk about the
>>> obvious better "dektop experience" for Ubuntu users (fade
>>> effects, fast user switching, general graphical consinstency [1]).
I talked about it -- I think you disagree with my answer, but
that's perfectly fine!
No Max, I don't disagree with your analisys, with is punctual and
realistic.
I've said you didn't answer the question because you, trying to avoid
any kind of "attack" or give the littlest aperture to "distro wars"
makers, didn't get inside the analisys of your Ubuntu experience
telling us what you like and what not about how the distro was
"summoned up" {damn, i don't have a dictionary at hand and i miss
some words, hope you understand me}.
If one distribution is making mager changes, then shouldn't they
be
trying to move all of that upstream, in the spirit of being a good
open source citizen?
Absolutely
>> Fedora does not support or include non-free software within
the
>> distribution.
That will never change.
I'd like to read "Fedora does not encourage, endorse or include" ....
leaving open some doors.
In any case in the mail exchange with Raul i've said that I'd like to
see a more consistend distribution of software into an handful of
repo, and not the actual plethora, never said that Fedora should
include mp3 proprietary codec or whatever :-)
> Fedora Project should speak loud on this inconsistency (for the
> record i have 14 different repositories in my yum.repos.d, some
> enabled some not, and i do not think it's easy to get the reason
> of this to the "non introduced").
Wow. 14? What are you doing with 14 repos?
Core, Extras, and maybe 1 third party repo should be almost
anything that someone needs unless there's some very specialized
work happening.
Yes, 14.
Essentially the one's available in FedoraTracker's list, avoiding
ATrpms and JPackage which gave me problems several times.
What benefit do you gain from so many additional repos?
In this way i can have, test and use a bigger list of "free"
software. The virtual PDF printer, the multimedia player .... the
external repos take care of the "desiderata" packages in Extras and
them some more.
To me, that seems like it would be a lot of trouble, and a recipe
for instability in the system.
Yes, indeed. And that's why i am discussing it :-)
--
Nicola .:kOoLiNuS:. Losito
http://koolinus.wordpress.com
http://www.koolinus.net
4:25 a.m.
New subject: [Fedora-marketing-list] Re: slashdot
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
Hash: SHA1
Nicola Losito escribió:
Il giorno 23/ago/06, alle ore 00:37, Max Spevack ha scritto:
>>>> That's because on the last question "Have you tried Ubuntu
>>>> yourself? Is there, in your opinion, something Ubuntu does
>>>> better than Fedora?" Max didn't actually answered. He cites the
>>>> main site/wiki efficency and the fist second impression of a
>>>> missing NetworkManager but then he omits to talk about the
>>>> obvious better "dektop experience" for Ubuntu users (fade
>>>> effects, fast user switching, general graphical consinstency [1]).
>
> I talked about it -- I think you disagree with my answer, but
> that's perfectly fine!
No Max, I don't disagree with your analisys, with is punctual and
realistic.
I've said you didn't answer the question because you, trying to
avoid any kind of "attack" or give the littlest aperture to "distro
wars" makers, didn't get inside the analisys of your Ubuntu
experience telling us what you like and what not about how the
distro was "summoned up" {damn, i don't have a dictionary at hand
and i miss some words, hope you understand me}.
Even though I'd be most interested on hearing/reading what does Max
think about Ubuntu, I'm not sure if his input on the subject more
directly than what it was would have been all that beneficial, for the
discussion and the whole Fedora "angle". However now knowing that
Fedora is "no longer" a "Linux power user/enthusiast" distro any more
(or so I deduce from some of the postings and points made by Rahul),
I'd really be interested, as I tended to think that two niches were
covered by either Ubuntu and Fedora. Fedora being more like Gentoo
(without the whole "build it thyself" aspect) and being a distribution
that could appeal easily to both GUI-inclined power users and CLI
hardcore power users; while Ubuntu is usually associated with
Linux-newbie users. Personally I'm always game for a solution and tool
which would make setting something up easy and fast (usually this is
associated with GUI tools), just as long as what it allows me to
control is all I need to control, i.e, no further
configuration/tweaking is required. Especially useful for stuff like
Samba, for instance, as in the case of DNS or Apache, even though the
GUI tools are mostly OK for inexperienced users, I still rather
manually configure them manipulating the config files. Fedora, of
course, is not the only distro to have this power, and many more have
this ability, however on distros like SuSE, for instance, messing
directly with the configuration files can even BREAK stuff up.
>>> Fedora does not support or include non-free software within the
>>> distribution.
>
> That will never change.
I'd like to read "Fedora does not encourage, endorse or include"
.... leaving open some doors.
In any case in the mail exchange with Raul i've said that I'd like
to see a more consistend distribution of software into an handful of
repo, and not the actual plethora, never said that Fedora should
include mp3 proprietary codec or whatever :-)
This is such a delicate topic,
I'm afraid. Not only because of the
legal status of anything having to do with mp3 or proprietary
codecs/formats, but the freedom us, the users, can have while using
them as well (not only Fedora as a distro).
> What benefit do you gain from so many additional repos?
In this way i can have, test and use a bigger list of "free"
software. The virtual PDF printer, the multimedia player .... the
external repos take care of the "desiderata" packages in Extras and
them some more.
I for one find it rather odd that I like to have at least two
extra
repos: Livna and Freshrpms. Mostly I manage everything from Livna that
is not part of Fedora/Extras, while I use Fresh for a selected few
packages. For some strange reason, I find Mplayer from Livna to be
generally "better" (as subjective as that is) than the Freshrpms
packaged one, however I find Xine from Freshrpms to be generally
"better" than that of Livna... Go figure.
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5:13 a.m.
New subject: [Fedora-marketing-list] Re: slashdot
Gian Paolo Mureddu wrote:
Even though I'd be most interested on hearing/reading what does
Max
think about Ubuntu, I'm not sure if his input on the subject more
directly than what it was would have been all that beneficial, for the
discussion and the whole Fedora "angle". However now knowing that
Fedora is "no longer" a "Linux power user/enthusiast" distro any
more
(or so I deduce from some of the postings and points made by Rahul),
Right. We are interesting in driving the project to serve other needs
along with the power users.
I'd really be interested, as I tended to think that two niches
were
covered by either Ubuntu and Fedora. Fedora being more like Gentoo
(without the whole "build it thyself" aspect) and being a distribution
that could appeal easily to both GUI-inclined power users and CLI
hardcore power users;
Yes. We need to continue that balance.
Rahul
11:11 a.m.
New subject: [Fedora-marketing-list] Re: slashdot
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Rahul escribió:
Gian Paolo Mureddu wrote:
> Even though I'd be most interested on hearing/reading what does Max
> think about Ubuntu, I'm not sure if his input on the subject more
> directly than what it was would have been all that beneficial, for the
> discussion and the whole Fedora "angle". However now knowing that
> Fedora is "no longer" a "Linux power user/enthusiast" distro any
more
> (or so I deduce from some of the postings and points made by Rahul),
Right. We are interesting in driving the project to serve other
needs along with the power users.
I must admit that I did not know this was the direction the
distribution was heading, though was kind of obvious from Core 4 to
6T2 now. I've been having new users use Fedora as their first Linux
distribution and some even began with Yarrow back in the day, and
stayed with Fedora to date. My greatest "pride" was a nephew who
installed Fedora and then Ubuntu (an umbiased opinion) and he said he
generally found his way around Fedora easier than in Ubuntu (I was
kind of surprised. At first I thought he said that because I
introduced him to Fedora, and felt compelled to say so, but then he
said he really did). Not to bash any other Linux distribution, after
all the more Linux users there are, the better support for other
important stuff there'll be (programs, hardware, open specs for open
drivers, etc, etc... And that only means good news for Linux in
general, despite the distribution!)
I'm a Fedora fan, even when I am not as participative as I would like
to be, partly because I don't find the time, partly because I just
simply don't know how to contribute... or simply where to start making
contributions... I hope I'll find my way around, though.
> I'd really be interested, as I tended to think that two niches were
> covered by either Ubuntu and Fedora. Fedora being more like Gentoo
> (without the whole "build it thyself" aspect) and being a distribution
> that could appeal easily to both GUI-inclined power users and CLI
> hardcore power users;
Yes. We need to continue that balance.
Rahul
It is just because of THAT balance, that I CHOOSE Fedora over other
"major" distributions. From the ones I've tried (and they've been
plenty) none gets as close as Red Hat/Fedora for that sort of
flexibility and dependability: meaning you can relay on a GUI tool to
get something done with just a few clicks, if the task would have
required you to do extensive editing of a config file; or I'd rather
sudo /sbin/service <name> (re)start|status|etc from CLI if I wanted to
start, restart or see the status of a service rather than going to
Desktop --> Administration --> Servers --> Services and having to
supply the root's password, while having the user in the wheel group
and making users in wheel not need a password for sudo gets the job
considerably faster.
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4:53 a.m.
New subject: [Fedora-marketing-list] Re: slashdot
Nicola Losito wrote:
I'd like to read "Fedora does not encourage, endorse or
include" ....
leaving open some doors.
You said Fedora Project will not include mp3 codecs. Thats not going to
change as long as it is a proprietary patent encumbered format.
In any case in the mail exchange with Raul i've said that I'd
like to
see a more consistend distribution of software into an handful of repo,
and not the actual plethora, never said that Fedora should include mp3
proprietary codec or whatever :-)
Fedora Project only include three repositories officially - Fedora Core,
Extras and Legacy. Thats just a handful.
Yes, 14.
Essentially the one's available in FedoraTracker's list, avoiding ATrpms
and JPackage which gave me problems several times.
> To me, that seems like it would be a lot of trouble, and a recipe for
> instability in the system.
Yes, indeed. And that's why i am discussing it :-)
These are third party repositories you choose to install yourself. Why
discuss that here?
Rahul
4:48 p.m.
New subject: [Fedora-marketing-list] Re: Slashdot interview with Fedora Project leader Max Spevack
On 8/21/06, Rahul <sundaram(a)fedoraproject.org> wrote:
I dont adore that quote. What are we developing Fedora for if not
human
beings or are people who use other distributions aliens? ;-)
I am personally developing for dolphins and dolphin-human hybrids!
Come join me in developing software for the future... after the
glaciers melt and the oceans rise 3 feet and we are forced to
interbreed with the new dominant species to thrive in a new undersea
world. Ubuntu is sooooooo behind the curve with their 'human' centric
view and their silly 'earth' toned color scheme. The future is all
subtle hues of the deep 'blue' sea. Fedora's coloring theming is just
the first step!
-jef"I've seen Kevin Kossner's Water World.. and I am a believer..
join me in making our watery future a free and open one!"spaleta
4:57 p.m.
New subject: [Fedora-marketing-list] Re: Slashdot interview with Fedora Project leader Max Spevack
Jeff Spaleta wrote:
On 8/21/06, Rahul <sundaram(a)fedoraproject.org> wrote:
> I dont adore that quote. What are we developing Fedora for if not human
> beings or are people who use other distributions aliens? ;-)
I am personally developing for dolphins and dolphin-human hybrids!
Come join me in developing software for the future... after the
glaciers melt and the oceans rise 3 feet and we are forced to
interbreed with the new dominant species to thrive in a new undersea
world. Ubuntu is sooooooo behind the curve with their 'human' centric
view and their silly 'earth' toned color scheme. The future is all
subtle hues of the deep 'blue' sea. Fedora's coloring theming is just
the first step!
I, for one, welcome our new dolphin overlords . . . (ob. Simpsons
ref.)
-jef"I've seen Kevin Kossner's Water World.. and I am a believer..
join me in making our watery future a free and open one!"spaleta
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Fedora-marketing-list mailing list
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7:16 a.m.
New subject: [Fedora-marketing-list] Re: Slashdot interview with Fedora Project leader Max Spevack
On Thu, 2006-08-24 at 21:48 +0000, Jeff Spaleta wrote:
I am personally developing for dolphins and dolphin-human hybrids!
...
interbreed with the new dominant species to thrive in a new undersea
world.
You did WHAT to a dolphin!!!!
Does the RSPCA know about this?
-tejas"Freaked out of my pants"dinkar
6441
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marketing@lists.fedoraproject.org
32 comments
10 participants
participants (10)
-
Gain Paolo Mureddu -
Jef Spaleta -
Matthew Miller -
Max Spevack -
Nicola Losito -
Nicu Buculei -
Rahul Sundaram -
Rich Megginson -
Steve Barnhart -
Tejas Dinkar