Hi,
I was talking recently to a couple of friends who aren't in the software industry and it came out in our recent discussions that both the companies they are working for is using Fedora on their systems. They remarked that they had no idea that Red Hat was involved in Fedora.
I still meet people in various places who think Red Hat has stopped working on a free distribution after Red Hat Linux 9 and continue to use it or worse a earlier version.
I just looked within Fedora to see if there was any hint and couldn't really find any prominent ones. The note on http://fedoraproject.org is also easily missed. Is this a deliberate decision? Should there be some of co-branding within the distribution and a prominent hint in other places?
Something like Fedora - Powered by Red Hat/ Sponsored by Red Hat or some such.
Rahul
Am Mittwoch, 26. März 2008 02:20:03 schrieb Rahul Sundaram:
Should there be some of co-branding within the distribution and a prominent hint in other places? Something like Fedora - Powered by Red Hat/ Sponsored by Red Hat or some such.
-1 from me Rahul, the 1.April is next week ;-) http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/RedHatContributions <- is this not enough?
JoergSimon wrote:
Am Mittwoch, 26. März 2008 02:20:03 schrieb Rahul Sundaram:
Should there be some of co-branding within the distribution and a prominent hint in other places? Something like Fedora - Powered by Red Hat/ Sponsored by Red Hat or some such.
-1 from me Rahul, the 1.April is next week ;-) http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/RedHatContributions <- is this not enough?
A typical Fedora user wouldn't ever see this and the point isn't really credit but continuity from Red Hat Linux. Long term contributors might and people who are actively involved in the linux community will but not regular end users who just use the distribution which is the large majority wouldn't. They will just see the bootup screen and background. Even the website is somewhat a secondary audience but since we have now a start.fp.o home page that is more prominent too.
Rahul
On Wed, Mar 26, 2008 at 10:59 AM, Rahul Sundaram sundaram@fedoraproject.org wrote:
JoergSimon wrote:
Am Mittwoch, 26. März 2008 02:20:03 schrieb Rahul Sundaram:
Should there be some of co-branding within the distribution and a prominent hint in other places? Something like Fedora - Powered by Red Hat/ Sponsored by Red Hat or
some
such.
-1 from me Rahul, the 1.April is next week ;-) http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/RedHatContributions <- is this not enough?
A typical Fedora user wouldn't ever see this and the point isn't really credit but continuity from Red Hat Linux. Long term contributors might and people who are actively involved in the linux community will but not regular end users who just use the distribution which is the large majority wouldn't. They will just see the bootup screen and background. Even the website is somewhat a secondary audience but since we have now a start.fp.o home page that is more prominent too.
btw, what would be the impact if an ordinary Linux user d'nt know about who is the sponsor of the Distro he/she is using?
Rahul
-- Fedora-marketing-list mailing list Fedora-marketing-list@redhat.com https://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/fedora-marketing-list
Nayyar Ahmad wrote:
On Wed, Mar 26, 2008 at 10:59 AM, Rahul Sundaram <sundaram@fedoraproject.org mailto:sundaram@fedoraproject.org> wrote:
JoergSimon wrote: > Am Mittwoch, 26. März 2008 02:20:03 schrieb Rahul Sundaram: > >> Should there be some >> of co-branding within the distribution and a prominent hint in other >> places? >> Something like Fedora - Powered by Red Hat/ Sponsored by Red Hat or some >> such. > > -1 from me > Rahul, the 1.April is next week ;-) > http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/RedHatContributions <- is this not enough? A typical Fedora user wouldn't ever see this and the point isn't really credit but continuity from Red Hat Linux. Long term contributors might and people who are actively involved in the linux community will but not regular end users who just use the distribution which is the large majority wouldn't. They will just see the bootup screen and background. Even the website is somewhat a secondary audience but since we have now a start.fp.o home page that is more prominent too.btw, what would be the impact if an ordinary Linux user d'nt know about who is the sponsor of the Distro he/she is using?
As I already explained, Fedora releases have a long standing legacy of Red Hat Linux releases. We are losing long term users and potential contributors who aren't aware of the transition. There are a number of sub projects which take advantage of this continuing including EPEL.
Rahul
On Wed, Mar 26, 2008 at 12:07 PM, Rahul Sundaram sundaram@fedoraproject.org wrote:
Nayyar Ahmad wrote:
On Wed, Mar 26, 2008 at 10:59 AM, Rahul Sundaram
<sundaram@fedoraproject.org mailto:sundaram@fedoraproject.org> wrote:
JoergSimon wrote: > Am Mittwoch, 26. März 2008 02:20:03 schrieb Rahul Sundaram: > >> Should there be some >> of co-branding within the distribution and a prominent hint in other >> places? >> Something like Fedora - Powered by Red Hat/ Sponsored by Red Hat or some >> such. > > -1 from me > Rahul, the 1.April is next week ;-) > http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/RedHatContributions <- is this not enough? A typical Fedora user wouldn't ever see this and the point isn't really credit but continuity from Red Hat Linux. Long term contributors might and people who are actively involved in the linux community will but not regular end users who just use the distribution which is the large majority wouldn't. They will just see the bootup screen and background. Even the website is somewhat a secondary audience but since we have now a start.fp.o home page that is more prominent too.btw, what would be the impact if an ordinary Linux user d'nt know about who is the sponsor of the Distro he/she is using?
As I already explained, Fedora releases have a long standing legacy of Red Hat Linux releases. We are losing long term users and potential contributors who aren't aware of the transition. There are a number of sub projects which take advantage of this continuing including EPEL.
Rahul
-- Fedora-marketing-list mailing list Fedora-marketing-list@redhat.com https://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/fedora-marketing-list
Agree. People should know: gain fedora experience = gain Red Hat Linux experience.
we can use logo for example like this: http://fedoraproject.org.ru/files/fedora-logo.png
On Wed, Mar 26, 2008 at 5:15 AM, Zhukov Pavel gelios@gmail.com wrote:
Agree. People should know: gain fedora experience = gain Red Hat Linux experience.
This is a very important point. I don't know how many people keep saying they're going to learn Linux because they want to work in the enterprise, and run right out and install Ubuntu... <sigh>
Russell
Russell Harrison wrote:
On Wed, Mar 26, 2008 at 5:15 AM, Zhukov Pavel gelios@gmail.com wrote:
Agree. People should know: gain fedora experience = gain Red Hat Linux experience.
This is a very important point. I don't know how many people keep saying they're going to learn Linux because they want to work in the enterprise, and run right out and install Ubuntu... <sigh>
Russell
I think this new topic says all I have to say.
Kind regards,
Jeroen van Meeuwen -kanarip
On Wed, Mar 26, 2008 at 11:07 AM, Rahul Sundaram sundaram@fedoraproject.org wrote:
Nayyar Ahmad wrote:
On Wed, Mar 26, 2008 at 10:59 AM, Rahul Sundaram <sundaram@fedoraproject.org mailto:sundaram@fedoraproject.org> wrote:
JoergSimon wrote: > Am Mittwoch, 26. März 2008 02:20:03 schrieb Rahul Sundaram: > >> Should there be some >> of co-branding within the distribution and a prominent hint inother
>> places? >> Something like Fedora - Powered by Red Hat/ Sponsored by Red Hat or some >> such. > > -1 from me > Rahul, the 1.April is next week ;-) > http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/RedHatContributions <- is this not enough? A typical Fedora user wouldn't ever see this and the point isn'treally
credit but continuity from Red Hat Linux. Long term contributorsmight
and people who are actively involved in the linux community will butnot
regular end users who just use the distribution which is the large majority wouldn't. They will just see the bootup screen andbackground.
Even the website is somewhat a secondary audience but since we havenow
a start.fp.o home page that is more prominent too.btw, what would be the impact if an ordinary Linux user d'nt know about who is the sponsor of the Distro he/she is using?
As I already explained, Fedora releases have a long standing legacy of Red Hat Linux releases. We are losing long term users and potential contributors who aren't aware of the transition. There are a number of sub projects which take advantage of this continuing including EPEL.
there is already too much in media/press about this transition, but if still somebody is unaware of it, Ambassadors should be asked to promote the insight during their promotional work.
Rahul
-- Fedora-marketing-list mailing list Fedora-marketing-list@redhat.com https://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/fedora-marketing-list
I am relatively new to the project but would like to submit this as a comment on co branding.
Overall co-branding is powerful when a project is on the market and consumers are scared to test it out. Co-branding gives the consumer a sense of stability by creating a secure foundation around the product. Basically a new user of Fedora may not be knowledable of the software and name, but since Red Hat is pretty well known co-branding gives that level of belief that the product has a great support base and foundation.
However, dont we want Fedora to stand on its own merit and the belief that the very foundation of this product is the large community of people like us who make this product work. Co-branding in this case may take away in some aspects from the message we are trying to put out.
Donnell
Sent from my BlackBerry® wireless device
-----Original Message----- From: "Nayyar Ahmad" nayyares@gmail.com
Date: Wed, 26 Mar 2008 11:02:56 To:"For discussions about marketing and expanding the Fedora user base"fedora-marketing-list@redhat.com Subject: Re: Co-branding?
On Wed, Mar 26, 2008 at 10:59 AM, Rahul Sundaram <sundaram@fedoraproject.org mailto:sundaram@fedoraproject.org > wrote:
JoergSimon wrote:
Am Mittwoch, 26. März 2008 02:20:03 schrieb Rahul Sundaram:
Should there be some of co-branding within the distribution and a prominent hint in other places? Something like Fedora - Powered by Red Hat/ Sponsored by Red Hat or some such.
-1 from me Rahul, the 1.April is next week ;-) http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/RedHatContributions http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/RedHatContributions <- is this not enough?
A typical Fedora user wouldn't ever see this and the point isn't really credit but continuity from Red Hat Linux. Long term contributors might and people who are actively involved in the linux community will but not regular end users who just use the distribution which is the large majority wouldn't. They will just see the bootup screen and background. Even the website is somewhat a secondary audience but since we have now a start.fp.o home page that is more prominent too.
btw, what would be the impact if an ordinary Linux user d'nt know about who is the sponsor of the Distro he/she is using?
Rahul
-- Fedora-marketing-list mailing list Fedora-marketing-list@redhat.com mailto:Fedora-marketing-list@redhat.com https://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/fedora-marketing-list https://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/fedora-marketing-list
2008/3/26, JoergSimon jsimon@fedoraproject.org:
Am Mittwoch, 26. März 2008 02:20:03 schrieb Rahul Sundaram:
-1 from me Rahul, the 1.April is next week ;-) http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/RedHatContributions <- is this not enough?
I agree with Joerg.
Let me explain the reason
I think I'm one of the few contributors who joined fedora as it is, without knowing what Red Hat was, just knowing it was a sponsor.
Red Hat is helping the project with a lot (really a lot) of resources, employers and support, but, meanwhile, fedora is facing its own branding process: it has its community, its values and its perspective. I think many people are joining the project because they discovered directly it, they met fedora people, they joined events and saw our logo. Many times I read in the blog that Fedora is a distribution for Sysadmin, but it's not completely true: it's for everyone, and it's not only a distribution, it's a community project.
Yes, RH is really helping us. According to Joerg post, fedora is demonstrating the great reconnaissance to RH, but according to http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Ambassadors/Conduct (for ambassadors, but it could be extended to the whole project), we are not allowed to abuse of RH name, even if it gives us resource, just because we didn't receive the permit from our GREAT sponsor. And I agree completely with such position: we are offering a service that differs in many way with a business, we are here to produce a free and open source OS (and community services) for people, like me, and this way gives us different goals, strategies, etc...
Red Hat is, and will remain, our point of reference for its values, for the people and the resources it gives to make this project one of the best i ever seen.
I think everyone who really know fedora know how RH is helping us, and i think it the biggest prize we can give it.
Regards
Francesco Ugolini
Francesco Ugolini wrote:
2008/3/26, JoergSimon jsimon@fedoraproject.org:
Am Mittwoch, 26. März 2008 02:20:03 schrieb Rahul Sundaram:
-1 from me Rahul, the 1.April is next week ;-) http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/RedHatContributions <- is this not enough?
I agree with Joerg.
Let me explain the reason
{snipped lot of good thoughts]
Thanks for the thoughtful reasoning. Especially for not giving a knee jerk response.
Rahul
On Wed, 2008-03-26 at 18:04 +0100, Francesco Ugolini wrote:
I think everyone who really know fedora know how RH is helping us, and i think it the biggest prize we can give it.
As an idea that I think is good for Fedora and addresses some of Rahul's original concern, do we have a "History of Fedora" page?
If/when we do, a nice timeline diagram that looks all Fedora pretty, we can link to it from our front page. That way people interested in such things can find out for themselves without a ton of independent research or "just knowing".
- Karsten
Op woensdag 26-03-2008 om 11:04 uur [tijdzone -0700], schreef Karsten 'quaid' Wade:
On Wed, 2008-03-26 at 18:04 +0100, Francesco Ugolini wrote:
I think everyone who really know fedora know how RH is helping us, and i think it the biggest prize we can give it.
As an idea that I think is good for Fedora and addresses some of Rahul's original concern, do we have a "History of Fedora" page?
If/when we do, a nice timeline diagram that looks all Fedora pretty, we can link to it from our front page. That way people interested in such things can find out for themselves without a ton of independent research or "just knowing".
- Karsten
We have 2 pages, one reflecting the RHL history [1] and the other showing the Fedora history [2]. The latter might need some polishing, or a merge with the former.
[1]: http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/History [2]: http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Releases/HistoricalSchedules
Bart
On 03/26/2008 03:20 AM, Rahul Sundaram wrote:
Hi,
I was talking recently to a couple of friends who aren't in the software industry and it came out in our recent discussions that both the companies they are working for is using Fedora on their systems. They remarked that they had no idea that Red Hat was involved in Fedora.
I still meet people in various places who think Red Hat has stopped working on a free distribution after Red Hat Linux 9 and continue to use it or worse a earlier version.
I just looked within Fedora to see if there was any hint and couldn't really find any prominent ones. The note on http://fedoraproject.org is also easily missed. Is this a deliberate decision? Should there be some of co-branding within the distribution and a prominent hint in other places?
Something like Fedora - Powered by Red Hat/ Sponsored by Red Hat or some such.
I think this will bring us back 2 years. One of the major advantage given by Red hat; is we got transparent build process; all tools used is GPL'ed, all these efforts are done to invite and welcome contributers, I think co-branding will do exact the opposite.
Rahul
Diaa Radwan wrote:
On 03/26/2008 03:20 AM, Rahul Sundaram wrote:
Hi,
I was talking recently to a couple of friends who aren't in the software industry and it came out in our recent discussions that both the companies they are working for is using Fedora on their systems. They remarked that they had no idea that Red Hat was involved in Fedora.
I still meet people in various places who think Red Hat has stopped working on a free distribution after Red Hat Linux 9 and continue to use it or worse a earlier version.
I just looked within Fedora to see if there was any hint and couldn't really find any prominent ones. The note on http://fedoraproject.org is also easily missed. Is this a deliberate decision? Should there be some of co-branding within the distribution and a prominent hint in other places?
Something like Fedora - Powered by Red Hat/ Sponsored by Red Hat or some such.
I think this will bring us back 2 years. One of the major advantage given by Red hat; is we got transparent build process; all tools used is GPL'ed, all these efforts are done to invite and welcome contributers, I will think co-branding will do exact the opposite.
Free software with branding is still Free software and will continue to stay that way. This discussion is orthogonal to that.
Rahul
Rahul Sundaram wrote:
Hi,
I was talking recently to a couple of friends who aren't in the software industry and it came out in our recent discussions that both the companies they are working for is using Fedora on their systems. They remarked that they had no idea that Red Hat was involved in Fedora.
I still meet people in various places who think Red Hat has stopped working on a free distribution after Red Hat Linux 9 and continue to use it or worse a earlier version.
People don't know about Linux. People don't know (or don't care) about Free and Open Source Software in general. Or open document standards for that matter. Even more people do not know EPEL. I've seen experienced administrators not knowing perl-LDAP is actually a package and it doesn't need to come from CPAN.
Long story short; people just can't keep track. Some people will miss out on huge changes. Ask people to explain global warming. Ignorance is bliss. And not our problem.
I just looked within Fedora to see if there was any hint and couldn't really find any prominent ones. The note on http://fedoraproject.org is also easily missed. Is this a deliberate decision? Should there be some of co-branding within the distribution and a prominent hint in other places?
Something like Fedora - Powered by Red Hat/ Sponsored by Red Hat or some such.
A *huge* -1 here
We've already spend lots of effort getting rid of the widely spread prejudice of being Red Hat's pre-enterprise private little playground project or distribution, and explaining that we're actually a community powered project instead (Yes, sponsored by Red Hat. Yes, upstream to Red Hat's Enterprise Linux product *and proud of it, might I add*).
I'm not even sure we actually did get rid of that prejudice entirely. It may still exist in some people's heads.
Anyway, correctly and fully exposing how Fedora is related to Red Hat, and how that works for both the community and Red Hat, with mere mortals on the one side, and business customers on the other, is way more important then getting the long-term users back on board because they missed out on Red Hat renaming the free/gratis distribution to Fedora, making Red Hat their Enterprise product.
Honestly, I don't think it's our problem someone missed out on all this back in the day. If they're really interested / valuable as contributors, it'll come naturally. If not, it'll still come naturally with the work of our Ambassadors and thanks to other exposure.
Kind regards,
Jeroen van Meeuwen -kanarip
On Wed, 2008-03-26 at 12:45 +0100, Jeroen van Meeuwen wrote:
Rahul Sundaram wrote:
Hi,
I was talking recently to a couple of friends who aren't in the software industry and it came out in our recent discussions that both the companies they are working for is using Fedora on their systems. They remarked that they had no idea that Red Hat was involved in Fedora.
I still meet people in various places who think Red Hat has stopped working on a free distribution after Red Hat Linux 9 and continue to use it or worse a earlier version.
People don't know about Linux. People don't know (or don't care) about Free and Open Source Software in general. Or open document standards for that matter. Even more people do not know EPEL. I've seen experienced administrators not knowing perl-LDAP is actually a package and it doesn't need to come from CPAN.
Long story short; people just can't keep track. Some people will miss out on huge changes. Ask people to explain global warming. Ignorance is bliss. And not our problem.
I just looked within Fedora to see if there was any hint and couldn't really find any prominent ones. The note on http://fedoraproject.org is also easily missed. Is this a deliberate decision? Should there be some of co-branding within the distribution and a prominent hint in other places?
Something like Fedora - Powered by Red Hat/ Sponsored by Red Hat or some such.
A *huge* -1 here
We've already spend lots of effort getting rid of the widely spread prejudice of being Red Hat's pre-enterprise private little playground project or distribution, and explaining that we're actually a community powered project instead (Yes, sponsored by Red Hat. Yes, upstream to Red Hat's Enterprise Linux product *and proud of it, might I add*).
I'm not even sure we actually did get rid of that prejudice entirely. It may still exist in some people's heads.
Anyway, correctly and fully exposing how Fedora is related to Red Hat, and how that works for both the community and Red Hat, with mere mortals on the one side, and business customers on the other, is way more important then getting the long-term users back on board because they missed out on Red Hat renaming the free/gratis distribution to Fedora, making Red Hat their Enterprise product.
Honestly, I don't think it's our problem someone missed out on all this back in the day. If they're really interested / valuable as contributors, it'll come naturally. If not, it'll still come naturally with the work of our Ambassadors and thanks to other exposure.
In a thread on fedora-ambassadors-list[1], someone was kind enough to raise an exception from our own Greg DeKoenigsberg:
"The Fedora brand must evolve separately from Red Hat's brand. Fedora is very important to Red Hat, but Fedora is not Red Hat. It's really crucial to understand that distinction."
-1 to co-branding.
= = = = = [1] http://www.redhat.com/archives/fedora-ambassadors-list/2008-March/msg00187.h...
Jeroen van Meeuwen wrote:
We've already spend lots of effort getting rid of the widely spread prejudice of being Red Hat's pre-enterprise private little playground project or distribution, and explaining that we're actually a community powered project instead (Yes, sponsored by Red Hat. Yes, upstream to Red Hat's Enterprise Linux product *and proud of it, might I add*).
I'm not even sure we actually did get rid of that prejudice entirely. It may still exist in some people's heads.
Anyway, correctly and fully exposing how Fedora is related to Red Hat, and how that works for both the community and Red Hat, with mere mortals on the one side, and business customers on the other, is way more important then getting the long-term users back on board because they missed out on Red Hat renaming the free/gratis distribution to Fedora, making Red Hat their Enterprise product.
Honestly, I don't think it's our problem someone missed out on all this back in the day. If they're really interested / valuable as contributors, it'll come naturally. If not, it'll still come naturally with the work of our Ambassadors and thanks to other exposure.
Dell has provided Fedora with some resources so we have their logo up in spots, I think on some of the 404 pages and elsewhere, to give them credit for helping Fedora out.
Doesn't Red Hat deserve some kudos for helping Fedora out as well...?
~m
Máirín Duffy wrote:
Jeroen van Meeuwen wrote:
We've already spend lots of effort getting rid of the widely spread prejudice of being Red Hat's pre-enterprise private little playground project or distribution, and explaining that we're actually a community powered project instead (Yes, sponsored by Red Hat. Yes, upstream to Red Hat's Enterprise Linux product *and proud of it, might I add*).
I'm not even sure we actually did get rid of that prejudice entirely. It may still exist in some people's heads.
Anyway, correctly and fully exposing how Fedora is related to Red Hat, and how that works for both the community and Red Hat, with mere mortals on the one side, and business customers on the other, is way more important then getting the long-term users back on board because they missed out on Red Hat renaming the free/gratis distribution to Fedora, making Red Hat their Enterprise product.
Honestly, I don't think it's our problem someone missed out on all this back in the day. If they're really interested / valuable as contributors, it'll come naturally. If not, it'll still come naturally with the work of our Ambassadors and thanks to other exposure.
Dell has provided Fedora with some resources so we have their logo up in spots, I think on some of the 404 pages and elsewhere, to give them credit for helping Fedora out.
Doesn't Red Hat deserve some kudos for helping Fedora out as well...?
Just to clarify - I don't mean co-branding as putting the Red Hat brand at the same level as the Fedora brand. No way. But listing Red Hat as a sponsor of the project, just as we would list any other sponsor, seems fair and appropriate to me personally.
(full disclosure: I do work for Red Hat, but I wouldn't let that influence an opinion like this)
~m
marketing@lists.fedoraproject.org