2014-02-24 - Fedora QA Meeting - minutes
by Adam Williamson
==================================
#fedora-meeting: Fedora QA meeting
==================================
Meeting started by handsome_pirate at 16:04:25 UTC. The full logs are
available at
http://meetbot.fedoraproject.org/fedora-meeting/2014-02-24/fedora-qa.2014...
.
Meeting summary
---------------
* Roll Call (handsome_pirate, 16:05:08)
* Fedora.next plans (handsome_pirate, 16:08:05)
* https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Workstation/Technical_Specification
(handsome_pirate, 16:08:21)
* installer discussion: partitioning simplification? (handsome_pirate,
16:23:17)
* installer discussion: variant installers? (handsome_pirate, 16:47:36)
* ACTION: adamw to draft up a proposal to the Anaconda devs about
guided partitioning screen (handsome_pirate, 16:50:07)
* ACTION: cmurf to fill in blanks on the proposal (handsome_pirate,
16:50:18)
* netsplits causing meeting issues (handsome_pirate, 17:07:11)
* taskotron update (handsome_pirate, 17:07:24)
* Ending meeting due to irc issues (handsome_pirate, 17:09:02)
Meeting ended at 17:09:06 UTC.
Action Items
------------
* adamw to draft up a proposal to the Anaconda devs about guided
partitioning screen
* cmurf to fill in blanks on the proposal
Action Items, by person
-----------------------
* adamw
* adamw to draft up a proposal to the Anaconda devs about guided
partitioning screen
* cmurf
* cmurf to fill in blanks on the proposal
* **UNASSIGNED**
* (none)
People Present (lines said)
---------------------------
* adamw (71)
* handsome_pirate (66)
* cmurf (42)
* danofsatx-work (25)
* roshi (15)
* nirik (13)
* satellit (11)
* zodbot (8)
* synchris (6)
* danofsatx-dt (6)
* tflink (4)
* drago01_ (3)
* adamw` (2)
* danofsatx (2)
* bochecha_ (2)
* mjg59 (2)
* mkrizek (1)
* pwhalen (1)
Generated by `MeetBot`_ 0.1.4
.. _`MeetBot`: http://wiki.debian.org/MeetBot
--
Adam Williamson
Fedora QA Community Monkey
IRC: adamw | Twitter: AdamW_Fedora | XMPP: adamw AT happyassassin . net
http://www.happyassassin.net
10 years, 1 month
[FZH] Fedora Chinese Meeting Minutes (2014-02-28)
by Alick Zhao
Hi all,
The IRC meeting minutes today are available at the links below.
Thanks everyone for attending the meeting.
==================
#fedora-zh Meeting
==================
Meeting started by alick at 13:04:22 UTC. The full logs are available at
http://meetbot.fedoraproject.org/fedora-zh/2014-02-28/fedora-zh.2014-02-2...
.
Meeting summary
---------------
* Roll Call (alick, 13:05:07)
* FUDCon APAC 2014 (alick, 13:10:15)
* LINK: https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/FUDCon:Beijing_2014/CFP
(alick, 13:11:50)
* ACTION: alick find someone to finish and send out FUDCon CFP
(alick, 13:19:55)
* ACTION: alick suggest anyone who needs subsidy apply on trac
(alick, 13:20:45)
* ACTION: zsun forward CFP to RedHat Beijing R&D when ready (alick,
13:20:57)
* ACTION: cicku ask design team to create FUDCon marketing stuff
(alick, 13:21:25)
* ACTION: alick acquire info about hotel (hostel) inside Beihang
(alick, 13:24:07)
* ACTION: tonghuix_ post info about hotel in Beihang (alick,
13:26:49)
* FAD China 2014 (alick, 13:29:19)
* LINK: https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/FAD_China_2014/zh (alick,
13:29:28)
* ACTION: alick forward dongfengweixiao's sticker design to tonghui
(alick, 13:40:59)
* 50张（500个）贴纸：CNY 225. (alick, 13:50:06)
* 易拉宝：CNY 130 (alick, 13:53:16)
* 光盘30张：4.5x30=135 (alick, 13:58:56)
* FUDCon 组织者午餐：350CNY. (alick, 14:02:58)
* 预算总计 CNY840 = USD 140 (alick, 14:07:34)
* ACTION: alick to request budget on trac. (alick, 14:08:07)
Meeting ended at 14:11:21 UTC.
Action Items
------------
* alick find someone to finish and send out FUDCon CFP
* alick suggest anyone who needs subsidy apply on trac
* zsun forward CFP to RedHat Beijing R&D when ready
* cicku ask design team to create FUDCon marketing stuff
* alick acquire info about hotel (hostel) inside Beihang
* tonghuix_ post info about hotel in Beihang
* alick forward dongfengweixiao's sticker design to tonghui
* alick to request budget on trac.
Action Items, by person
-----------------------
* alick
* alick find someone to finish and send out FUDCon CFP
* alick suggest anyone who needs subsidy apply on trac
* alick acquire info about hotel (hostel) inside Beihang
* alick forward dongfengweixiao's sticker design to tonghui
* alick to request budget on trac.
* tonghuix
* tonghuix_ post info about hotel in Beihang
* tonghuix_
* tonghuix_ post info about hotel in Beihang
* **UNASSIGNED**
* zsun forward CFP to RedHat Beijing R&D when ready
* cicku ask design team to create FUDCon marketing stuff
People Present (lines said)
---------------------------
* alick (94)
* tonghuix (31)
* zodbot (14)
* tonghuix_ (8)
* BadGirl (3)
* isyangxin (2)
* biergaizi (2)
* CyrusYzGTt (0)
* tiansworld (0)
Generated by `MeetBot`_ 0.1.4
.. _`MeetBot`: http://wiki.debian.org/MeetBot
10 years, 1 month
Summary/Minutes from today's Fedora Infrastructure meeting (2014-02-27)
by Kevin Fenzi
============================================
#fedora-meeting: Infrastructure (2014-02-27)
============================================
Meeting started by nirik at 19:00:04 UTC. The full logs are available at
http://meetbot.fedoraproject.org/fedora-meeting/2014-02-27/infrastructure...
.
Meeting summary
---------------
* Greetings starfighter! (nirik, 19:00:04)
* New folks introductions and Apprentice tasks (nirik, 19:01:48)
* Applications status / discussion (nirik, 19:04:02)
* LINK: https://apps.fedoraproject.org/nuancier (pingou, 19:05:30)
* LINK: https://fedorahosted.org/reviewboard/dashboard/ (nirik,
19:12:18)
* Sysadmin status / discussion (nirik, 19:27:30)
* download servers and netapp i/o has been a big issue this week.
ongoing. (nirik, 19:36:50)
* more puppet -> ansible conversions are ready to go (nirik,
19:37:09)
* LINK: http://fedorapeople.org/~kevin/ansible-20140224.odp (nirik,
19:38:25)
* LINK: http://skvidal.fedorapeople.org/misc/rbac-playbook I find just
this (mirek, 19:43:03)
* Upcoming Tasks/Items (nirik, 19:48:40)
* LINK: https://apps.fedoraproject.org/calendar/list/infrastructure/
(nirik, 19:48:41)
* Open Floor (nirik, 19:50:03)
* LINK:
http://pkgs.fedoraproject.org/lookaside/pkgs/389-admin/389-admin-1.1.12.t...
for example (pingou, 19:53:20)
Meeting ended at 20:05:11 UTC.
Action Items
------------
Action Items, by person
-----------------------
* **UNASSIGNED**
* (none)
People Present (lines said)
---------------------------
* nirik (124)
* pingou (54)
* mirek (17)
* smooge (17)
* threebean (15)
* willo (13)
* sgallagh (11)
* danofsatx-work (7)
* adimania (5)
* misc (4)
* zodbot (4)
* abadger1999 (3)
* lmacken (3)
* docent (1)
* lbazan (1)
* relrod (1)
* janeznemanic (1)
* kushalk124 (1)
* ausmarton (1)
* fchiulli (1)
* mdomsch (0)
* puiterwijk (0)
* dgilmore (0)
--
19:00:04 <nirik> #startmeeting Infrastructure (2014-02-27)
19:00:04 <zodbot> Meeting started Thu Feb 27 19:00:04 2014 UTC. The chair is nirik. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.debian.org/MeetBot.
19:00:04 <zodbot> Useful Commands: #action #agreed #halp #info #idea #link #topic.
19:00:04 <nirik> #meetingname infrastructure
19:00:04 <nirik> #topic Greetings starfighter!
19:00:04 <nirik> #chair smooge relrod nirik abadger1999 lmacken dgilmore mdomsch threebean pingou puiterwijk
19:00:04 <zodbot> The meeting name has been set to 'infrastructure'
19:00:04 <zodbot> Current chairs: abadger1999 dgilmore lmacken mdomsch nirik pingou puiterwijk relrod smooge threebean
19:00:10 <abadger1999> howdy
19:00:34 <janeznemanic> hi
19:00:35 * adimania is here
19:00:41 * pingou
19:00:44 * lmacken
19:01:03 * threebean is here
19:01:05 <relrod> here
19:01:08 * ausmarton is here
19:01:19 * docent is here
19:01:25 * willo is here
19:01:32 <danofsatx-work> here
19:01:33 <nirik> morning everyone. ;)
19:01:43 <danofsatx-work> but not for long, need to reload F20 :(
19:01:48 <nirik> #topic New folks introductions and Apprentice tasks
19:01:54 <nirik> danofsatx-work: fun times. ;)
19:01:58 * kushalk124 is here
19:02:09 <nirik> any new folks like to introduce themselves? or apprentices with questions or comments?
19:02:22 <danofsatx-work> new system - old load isn't optimized for it, so I get to redo it, yet again....
19:03:55 <nirik> ok, moving along then... as always feel free to chime in with questions or comments anytime.
19:04:02 <nirik> #topic Applications status / discussion
19:04:14 <nirik> any application side news this week?
19:04:26 * mirek is here
19:04:26 <pingou> new fedocal in prod
19:04:32 <pingou> new nuancier in prod
19:04:33 * fchiulli is here. Sorry for being late.
19:04:46 <pingou> (and new(er) nuancier in stg w/ fedmsg integration -- need to test this)
19:04:58 <nirik> pingou: cool. ;)
19:05:08 <mirek> those problems with copr (caused by createrepo_c) are hopefuly solved
19:05:09 <abadger1999> Cool.
19:05:13 <nirik> pingou: this is full nuancier now right? not lite?
19:05:23 <pingou> nirik: yup :)
19:05:24 <pingou> all features included
19:05:30 <pingou> https://apps.fedoraproject.org/nuancier
19:05:39 <pingou> and with a nicer frontpage :)
19:05:48 <nirik> mirek: cool. So it was createrepo_c sucking up all memory? or ?
19:05:50 <pingou> mirek: nice!
19:06:21 <mirek> nirik: yes, I even seen process with 10GB RAM.
19:06:29 <pingou> and with threebean we pushed some commits to summershum (support .gem, more info in the logs and on fedmsg)
19:06:42 <nirik> thats a pile. ;(
19:06:43 <mirek> I find the cause and give it to upstream with reproducer
19:07:16 <lmacken> once createrepo_c is semi-stable, getting mash to use it could be a great easyfix task
19:07:16 <nirik> mirek: I should have arm socs for you before too long... need to get dhcpd to not mess up the cloud dhcp and setup a pxe server to install them, etc.
19:07:42 * mirek is happy
19:07:51 <nirik> lmacken: theres still stuff missing tho I think... no deltarpms?
19:08:11 <pingou> (no deltarpms was mentionned at devconf)
19:08:16 <lmacken> nirik: ah, yeah I haven't looked at it too closely, but that's a blocker for sure :)
19:09:02 <nirik> mirek: those ansible module issues you ran into are really weird. it's like something is modifying your pythonpath, but only sometimes?
19:10:24 <mirek> yes, it really puzzle me, I want to spend some time, but today it happen on prod so I was in hurry to return it back online
19:10:34 <nirik> sure, understand
19:11:32 <nirik> oh, I had one thing to note...
19:11:56 <nirik> a while back puiterwijk got our reviewboard on fedorahosted back up and running
19:12:14 <nirik> I keep not having time to poke around on it more... but we should see if it's usable for us for any needs...
19:12:18 <nirik> https://fedorahosted.org/reviewboard/dashboard/
19:12:29 <nirik> it is much faster than before...
19:12:57 <pingou> not accessible w/o fas account?
19:13:03 <sgallagh> nirik: I can assist with administration if there are questions
19:13:09 <pingou> ah, it's the dashboard link
19:13:10 <nirik> pingou: openid
19:13:15 <threebean> nice
19:13:18 <sgallagh> pingou: https://fedorahosted.org/reviewboard/r/ is available directly
19:13:28 <sgallagh> So you can read but not edit.
19:13:45 <sgallagh> puiterwijk elected to make the login page automatically bounce to OpenID.
19:13:49 <nirik> oh reminds me I need to file a bug on the openid part...
19:14:30 <nirik> it makes a local FirstnameLastname user for reviewboard.
19:14:47 <nirik> but... it can't handle users with neat utf8 stuff in name. ;)
19:15:06 <pingou> ^^
19:15:23 <nirik> I'm sure we are shocked. ;)
19:15:35 * pingou looks at abadger1999
19:15:49 <sgallagh> I personally wish he'd just elected to mangle the openid for the username
19:15:56 <nirik> yeah, seems easier.
19:16:00 <sgallagh> sgallagh-id-fedoraproject-org would have worked better.
19:16:20 <abadger1999> <nod>
19:16:34 <sgallagh> And guaranteed not to be overloaded if we have two John Smiths
19:17:00 <nirik> anyhow, I know we have github for many application reviewing needs, but if it's nice enough we could look at it for ansible changes during freeze or the like.
19:17:03 <sgallagh> That's fixable. Please CC me on the bug report.
19:17:17 <nirik> sgallagh: where's the best place to fiile?
19:17:24 <sgallagh> nirik: FWIW, I'm working on Git hooks to be able to manage pull requests through Review Board.
19:17:42 <sgallagh> So you get the nice review UI of RB alongside the process management of github
19:17:52 <nirik> cool.
19:17:57 <sgallagh> nirik: Just use the Infra trac for instance-specific ones
19:18:02 <nirik> k
19:18:39 <nirik> ok, any other application news?
19:18:47 <threebean> kinda application-y:
19:19:04 <threebean> pushed out a nice error logging config for fedmsg this morning -> http://infrastructure.fedoraproject.org/cgit/ansible.git/commit/?id=1b875...
19:19:17 <pingou> it's *nice*!
19:19:21 <threebean> so, we'll get error emails from the badges awarder and the notifications daemon. from summershum too.
19:19:39 <nirik> oh nice. these are when it can't send? or ?
19:19:52 <threebean> well, whenever log.error('blah blah') is called.
19:19:59 <threebean> so its up to each app to catch its own problems and log them.
19:20:16 <pingou> pkgdb2, fedocal and nuancier also send emails
19:20:31 <pingou> I was wondering if we should create an alias to receive these emails
19:20:40 <nirik> yeah, where do they go now?
19:20:51 <threebean> (the fedmsg ones go to sysadmin-datanommer-members(a)fp.o
19:20:53 <pingou> pkgdb2, fedocal and nuancier to me (only)
19:20:56 <nirik> we do have sysadmin-logs, but thats more sysadminy than applicationy
19:21:14 <pingou> sysapp-logs? :D
19:21:40 * pingou doesn't dare to propose appy-logs
19:21:48 <threebean> we had exceptions from fedora-packages coming to lmacken and I for a while.. but there were just too many.
19:22:05 <nirik> a group is often nice because it's easy to manage who's in it, etc.
19:22:14 <nirik> no aliases to change, etc
19:22:18 <pingou> +1
19:23:01 <pingou> on the app side, I've been working a little on FAS3 today https://github.com/fedora-infra/fas/pull/56
19:23:03 <threebean> could we, create an alias for each app so you don't have to choose the firehose or nothing?
19:23:28 <nirik> threebean: we could, but if they are aliases, that means updating them via puppet (or ansible) and more pain in freezes, etc.
19:23:35 <pingou> maybe use gitproject as for fedorahosted?
19:23:36 * threebean nods
19:24:35 <nirik> how about: fedmsglogs-applicationname? just tracking groups
19:24:57 <pingou> wfm too
19:25:18 <nirik> the git ones might be folks who dont want our specific error logs
19:25:32 <threebean> oo, wait. I'm not sure how to distinguish fedmsglogs between applications. :/
19:26:10 <pingou> then just <app>-logs, fedmsg-logs being just one of them
19:26:14 * threebean nods
19:26:29 <nirik> sure.
19:27:06 <nirik> ok, any other apps news? ;)
19:27:30 <nirik> #topic Sysadmin status / discussion
19:27:43 <nirik> on the sysadmin side, smooge and I have been having fun with download servers.
19:27:57 <nirik> turns out the load on them has been at least part of the thing slowing our netapp storage down. ;(
19:27:59 <smooge> download download
19:28:29 <nirik> we tried cachefilesd the other day, but it made the machines unstable sadly.
19:28:42 <nirik> so, now we are limiting rsyncs per download server
19:28:57 <nirik> we also have a iptables hashlimit to limit ips that hit rsync too much
19:29:00 <mirek> how big is the traffic (or data transfers)
19:29:02 <mirek> ?
19:29:19 * danofsatx-work makes a note to alter his rsync scripts
19:29:37 <nirik> in bytes/packets? a lot. ;)
19:29:53 <nirik> we did have some ip's hitting 100's of times a day
19:30:20 <danofsatx-work> for the record, that wasn't me ;) I hit it once every 7-10 days
19:30:31 <nirik> we are likely going to be moving storage for them next week.
19:31:07 <willo> i'll be making progress on migration of those servers to ansible this weekend
19:31:10 <nirik> looks like around 10TB a day or so as a ballpark
19:31:43 <nirik> perhaps 15
19:31:47 <nirik> willo: great. ;)
19:32:03 <adimania> migration of paste module to ansible should be good to go.
19:32:21 <adimania> I'll pick up another one this weekend probably.
19:32:22 <nirik> adimania: thanks for working on it. ;)
19:32:40 <adimania> nirik, thanks for all the help :)
19:32:52 <pingou> I wonder if we should track a list of remaining module to port to ansible?
19:33:27 <adimania> pingou, that would be really helpful.
19:33:33 <nirik> pingou: we could start doing that yeah... it's a bit of a mess tho due to puppet having old junk in it that we arent actually using anymore.
19:33:47 <nirik> like for example I think talk.fedoraproject.org/asterisk module is still there.
19:34:07 <nirik> but we could perhaps list machines in puppet only and extrapolate ?
19:34:28 <willo> track on a wiki page maybe?
19:34:54 <smooge> I would go with a trac wiki page :)
19:35:12 <smooge> sorry my humour is off. rebooting
19:35:16 <nirik> we could. would somone like to write up at least part of such a thing? I'd be happy to edit it and add info, etc.
19:35:22 <nirik> smooge: :)
19:35:55 <willo> i'll take a stab
19:36:18 <nirik> willo: cool!
19:36:33 <nirik> lets see...
19:36:34 <willo> i'll email list when outline is done for input
19:36:50 <nirik> #info download servers and netapp i/o has been a big issue this week. ongoing.
19:36:53 <nirik> willo: sounds great.
19:37:09 <nirik> #info more puppet -> ansible conversions are ready to go
19:37:31 <nirik> I have one of our arm chassis up in the cloud network, just need to get dhcpd working and pxe server to install them...
19:38:01 <nirik> Oh, I gave a talk to boulder devops monday night on ansible. My slides are at:
19:38:25 <nirik> http://fedorapeople.org/~kevin/ansible-20140224.odp
19:38:42 <nirik> for anyone who wants them. Not sure how much sense they make without me gibbering over them, but there they are. ;)
19:38:49 <smooge> cool
19:39:10 <willo> so no vid of the gibbering for posting to youtube ;)
19:39:11 <nirik> we have some new machines arriving tomorrow (I think)
19:39:24 <nirik> willo: sadly no, they are looking for a a/v person, but didn't have one.
19:39:51 <mirek> I have one idea... write something like rbac-playbook but for cloud, so sysadmin-cloud would be able to run euca-* and nova commands. Can someone send me current source of rbac-playbook so I can base it on that please. I just find som e old version on seth site
19:40:40 <nirik> mirek: not a bad idea...
19:41:04 <nirik> we aren't setup to run nova commands from there... but the euca ones would work after you source a eucarc...
19:41:20 <nirik> wonder if that is possible to just do in sudo?
19:41:41 <nirik> ie "source this, then run command" ?
19:41:57 <mirek> source is not command
19:42:02 <mirek> it is bash internals
19:42:32 <nirik> yeah, but it looks like sudo you can pass a env_file for this.
19:42:33 <smooge> I normally write a shell script if I have to source stuff
19:42:33 <mirek> but it can be very similar to rbac-playbook, and easy, I just want to reuse some recent code
19:43:03 <mirek> http://skvidal.fedorapeople.org/misc/rbac-playbook I find just this
19:43:15 <nirik> right, I can send you the current one...
19:43:24 <nirik> it's pretty primitive tho.
19:43:29 <mirek> thanks
19:43:31 <nirik> for example, command line args aren't supported.
19:43:41 <nirik> which may break it for ec2 stuff.
19:43:47 <mirek> I will keep it primitive for sure :)
19:44:24 <nirik> ok, feel free to look, but I think env_file with the ec2rc and allowing euca* might be easier...
19:44:43 <nirik> thats just a change to sudoers
19:45:04 <nirik> or... hum.
19:45:38 <nirik> what if we add a acl to the ec2rc file to allow sysadmin-cloud to read it. Then you can just source it and run commands as you. They shouldn't need any privs
19:46:07 <nirik> it would mean all sysadmin-cloud folks would have the credientals
19:46:42 <mirek> ahh chacl(1) yes, that should work
19:47:01 <nirik> anyhow, will ponder on it and try and get something that works. ;)
19:47:28 <nirik> anything else sysadmin related?
19:47:31 * lbazan here late..
19:48:40 <nirik> #topic Upcoming Tasks/Items
19:48:41 <nirik> https://apps.fedoraproject.org/calendar/list/infrastructure/
19:48:55 <nirik> anything upcoming folks would like to note or schedule?
19:49:14 <nirik> I still haven't done much on FAD organizing. Hopefully more news by next week
19:49:24 <threebean> nirik: same here
19:50:03 <nirik> #topic Open Floor
19:50:17 <pingou> I have been playing with the lookaside cache
19:50:19 <nirik> anyone have anything for open floor? questions, comments, ideas, favorate pies?
19:50:29 <pingou> I was wondering how often we have 1 tarball with multiple md5
19:50:36 <pingou> the results are interesting: http://paste.fedoraproject.org/80881/39350540/
19:50:57 <nirik> wow.
19:51:07 <pingou> but that on all the current tree, so there are some old versions in there
19:51:10 <nirik> I wonder if thats indicative of uploads that fail...
19:51:25 <nirik> or if it's upstreams that change stuff and re-release.
19:51:34 <pingou> I'm afraid for the later
19:51:36 <threebean> holy..
19:51:53 <pingou> I'm not sure yet what to do with this, mail on devel, blog post?
19:52:13 <pingou> maybe it might be worth asking people to watch out for this
19:52:18 <nirik> I wonder if we could find out more by looking at commits on those spec files?
19:52:21 <pingou> accident happens but...
19:52:24 <smooge> how do they get 2 different md5s?
19:52:28 <mirek> What does that mean? E.tgz has 10 md5 sums -- does that mean that 10 packages have the same tar.gz?
19:52:35 <pingou> smooge: two different tarball with the same name
19:52:44 <pingou> mirek: yup
19:52:47 <smooge> ah ok.
19:52:51 <nirik> it means you upload foo-1.0.tar.gz
19:53:00 <nirik> then upload it again, but with a different md5
19:53:05 <smooge> ahhhhh
19:53:20 <pingou> http://pkgs.fedoraproject.org/lookaside/pkgs/389-admin/389-admin-1.1.12.t... for example
19:53:23 <misc> either upstream did it, which is bad
19:53:30 <smooge> so I guess a timestamp,md5sum would be needed
19:53:42 <misc> or someone did regenerate the tarball from git, this kind of stuff
19:53:42 <nirik> misc: yeah, but does sadly happen
19:53:49 <pingou> smooge: we kinda have the timestamp on the apache page ;-)
19:53:57 <misc> or someone modified the tarball, cause patch is too mainstream :)
19:54:03 <pingou> misc: regenerate the tarball w/o renaming it
19:54:25 <nirik> I wonder, could we grab all those, then unpack and diff -Nur on them to see how they are different? I guess so, but might take a long time to figure out all of them.
19:54:38 <pingou> 5569 packages had multiple md5 for at least 1 of their version
19:54:43 <pingou> might be a little much :)
19:54:58 <misc> nirik: skip texlive, this will reduce the time to see :)
19:55:01 <pingou> nirik: smooge but that's the output from my demand from yesterday (install tree on pkgs01)
19:55:04 <pingou> :)
19:55:15 <smooge> so what is the problem? the build system grabs the wrong one? we are worried people are uploading different ones
19:55:36 <pingou> smooge: the build system will grab whatever is in the source file, so we should be fine there
19:55:36 <nirik> pingou: I'd say devel list I guess. Ask people if they are hitting upload issues (which we could try and fix) or other?
19:55:49 <pingou> it's more about packager/upstream behavior
19:55:52 <nirik> well, if it's a upload issue, we should try and fix it.
19:56:01 <nirik> if it's a upstream issue, we should be very sad, but ok.
19:56:09 <nirik> if it's a packager issue, we should tell them not to do that. ;)
19:56:21 * pingou is on the list
19:56:43 <smooge> pingou, but the source file says 389-admin-1.1.12.tar.bz2 and the lookaside cache has 3 of them
19:56:58 <nirik> smooge: the sources file has md5 too
19:57:03 <pingou> smooge: 3 different md5, and the source file has the md5
19:57:07 <smooge> duh
19:57:09 <smooge> thanks
19:57:11 <pingou> :)
19:57:19 <smooge> I deal with budgets and PPC for a week
19:57:31 <pingou> you're in pretty good shape then! :D
19:57:32 <smooge> well mostly budgets
19:57:34 <nirik> anyhow, perhaps devel list and hope we can get folks interested in investigating more so we don't have to?
19:57:46 <pingou> nirik: ok we'll do that :)
19:58:04 <nirik> crowdsource all the things! :)
19:58:26 <pingou> nirik: but I doubt texlive are bad upload, I'm pretty sure they are small sources :)
19:58:46 <nirik> oh... I wonder if that data would be nice too... size ?
19:58:53 <pingou> ?
19:59:02 <nirik> because if there are 4 of them and 3 of them are really small, it sounds like an upload problem?
19:59:19 <smooge> i was thinking spec file
19:59:22 <nirik> if all are close to the same size, it sounds more like upstream re-released or packager messed up
19:59:56 <nirik> pingou: so, for each of those on your list, a 'ls -l' of the same md5sum one?
20:00:09 <nirik> ls -lR
20:00:13 <smooge> actually even then it could be a bad upload. We had someone complaining a while back and it turned out about being a bad proxy in front
20:00:31 <nirik> sure, but it might give some more indications.
20:00:38 <pingou> nirik: good idea
20:01:38 <nirik> ok, if nothing else, will close out in a minute.
20:02:03 <willo> quick update from me
20:02:28 <nirik> willo: sure, whats up?
20:02:42 <willo> I'm about half way through collating a list of networks before I start on the diagrams
20:03:10 <danofsatx-work> willo: sorry I dropped off on helping you with this - school became harder than I anticipated for this semester.
20:03:22 <nirik> cool. please do ask me if you have questions.
20:03:29 <willo> i'll have something shortly to get input on assumptions
20:03:42 <willo> assumputions about purpose etc
20:03:46 <danofsatx-work> but things are stabilizing, so feel free to ping me for anything
20:03:47 <willo> nirik: no prob
20:04:00 <willo> danofsatx-work: no probs will do
20:04:18 <nirik> great. ;)
20:04:36 <willo> listing it out in spreadsheet and i'll stick it up on fedorapeople and ping mailing list
20:04:48 <nirik> ok, thanks for coming everyone! Lets get back to it in #fedora-admin, #fedora-apps, #fedora-noc.
20:04:55 <nirik> willo: sounds goodly.
20:05:11 <nirik> #endmeeting
10 years, 1 month
Summary/Minutes from today's FPC Meeting (2014-02-27 17:00 - 18:50 UTC)
by James Antill
=============================================
#fedora-meeting-1: Fedora Packaging Committee
=============================================
Meeting started by spot at 17:03:44 UTC. The full logs are available at
http://meetbot.fedoraproject.org/fedora-meeting-1/2014-02-27/fpc.2014-02-...
.
Meeting summary
---------------
* Software collections in Fedora
(https://fedorahosted.org/fpc/ticket/339) (spot, 17:06:57)
* Go Packaging Draft - https://fedorahosted.org/fpc/ticket/382 (spot,
17:13:06)
* workarounds for rpm symlink <-> directory issue -
https://fedorahosted.org/fpc/ticket/385 (spot, 17:14:18)
* LINK:
https://fedoraproject.org/w/index.php?title=User:Patches/PackagingDrafts/...
(spot, 17:15:05)
* Recommend %autosetup over %setup -
https://fedorahosted.org/fpc/ticket/388 (spot, 17:27:47)
* LINK: http://www.rpm.org/wiki/PackagerDocs/Autosetup has the meat
(spot, 17:32:57)
* ACTION: spot's mini-draft approved (+1:7, 0:1, -1:0) (spot,
17:43:54)
* Exception for bundled libs in icecat -
https://fedorahosted.org/fpc/ticket/391 (spot, 17:45:32)
* LINK: https://fedorahosted.org/fesco/ticket/472#comment:16
(abadger1999, 17:48:08)
* LINK: https://bugzilla.redhat.com/show_bug.cgi?id=1049889 => no
comment (RemiFedora, 18:03:31)
* icecat bundling tabled for this week as there's both questions of
what we should be doing and fairness wrt firefox. (abadger1999,
18:09:10)
* #393 New Packaging Guidelines: Drupal 7 (abadger1999, 18:09:28)
* LINK: https://fedorahosted.org/fpc/ticket/393 (abadger1999,
18:09:34)
* Drupal7 guidelines approved with the virtual provides requirement
changed to MUST (+1:6, 0:0, -1:0) (abadger1999, 18:28:49)
* #394 Outdated guideline about Requires(foo,bar) syntax
(abadger1999, 18:28:51)
* LINK: https://fedorahosted.org/fpc/ticket/394 (abadger1999,
18:28:59)
* Remove the Scriptlets requirements section from the Guidelines and
add them to the epel guidelines for EL5 (+1:5, 0:0, -1:0)
(abadger1999, 18:31:21)
* #395 Mono guidelines include hard-coded library paths
(abadger1999, 18:31:53)
* LINK: https://fedorahosted.org/fpc/ticket/395 (abadger1999,
18:31:58)
* Mono path macros approved with the folowing changes: prepend with an
underscore and use %{_prefix} (+1:5, 0:0, -1:0) (abadger1999,
18:37:20)
* #396 Reserve static UID/GID for OpenStack ironic daemon
(abadger1999, 18:37:34)
* LINK: https://fedorahosted.org/fpc/ticket/396 (abadger1999,
18:37:39)
* #397 Please, choose an ID number for a new group called "input"
(abadger1999, 18:39:01)
* LINK: https://fedorahosted.org/fpc/ticket/397 (abadger1999,
18:39:07)
* Open floor (abadger1999, 18:50:19)
Meeting ended at 18:52:30 UTC.
Action Items
------------
* spot's mini-draft approved (+1:7, 0:1, -1:0)
Action Items, by person
-----------------------
* spot
* spot's mini-draft approved (+1:7, 0:1, -1:0)
* **UNASSIGNED**
* (none)
People Present (lines said)
---------------------------
* spot (96)
* abadger1999 (92)
* geppetto (51)
* tibbs|w (32)
* RemiFedora (24)
* Rathann (22)
* limburgher (9)
* SmootherFrOgZ (7)
* zodbot (6)
* willb (5)
* tstclair (2)
* nirik (2)
Generated by `MeetBot`_ 0.1.4
.. _`MeetBot`: http://wiki.debian.org/MeetBot
10 years, 1 month
Summary/Minutes from today's irc support sig meeting (2014-02-27)
by Kevin Fenzi
=============================================
#fedora-meeting: IRC Support SIG (2014-02-27)
=============================================
Meeting started by nirik at 18:00:25 UTC. The full logs are available at
http://meetbot.fedoraproject.org/fedora-meeting/2014-02-27/irc-support-si...
.
Meeting summary
---------------
* init process (nirik, 18:00:26)
* (cantstanya, 18:02:22)
* Week in review (nirik, 18:04:04)
* if anyone wants AntiSpamMeta to hilight them on alerts, let me know
(nb, 18:10:07)
* Open Floor (nirik, 18:11:48)
Meeting ended at 18:21:05 UTC.
Action Items
------------
Action Items, by person
-----------------------
* **UNASSIGNED**
* (none)
People Present (lines said)
---------------------------
* nirik (27)
* Khaytsus (17)
* cantstanya (12)
* EvilBob (12)
* nb (8)
* zodbot (3)
* Sonar_Gal (2)
--
18:00:25 <nirik> #startmeeting IRC Support SIG (2014-02-27)
18:00:26 <zodbot> Meeting started Thu Feb 27 18:00:25 2014 UTC. The
chair is nirik. Information about MeetBot at
http://wiki.debian.org/MeetBot. 18:00:26 <zodbot> Useful Commands:
#action #agreed #halp #info #idea #link #topic. 18:00:26 <nirik>
#meetingname irc-support-sig 18:00:26 <nirik> #topic init process
18:00:26 <zodbot> The meeting name has been set to 'irc-support-sig'
18:00:56 <nirik> anyone around for an irc support sig meeting? 18:01:05
* EvilBob 18:02:10 <cantstanya> #topic
18:02:22 <cantstanya> #info
18:03:14 <nirik> cantstanya: ?
18:03:33 <cantstanya> aren't those supposed to be useful commands
18:03:45 <nb> cantstanya, for meeting chairs, not for normal users
18:03:48 <nirik> for people running meetings sure...
18:04:02 <nirik> please go see the meetbot wiki page for more info. ;)
18:04:04 <nirik> #topic Week in review
18:04:25 <nirik> anything anyone would like to note from the previous
week? 18:04:48 <EvilBob> There are no updated F20 Live Media yet.
18:05:25 <EvilBob> fenris02 mistakenly pointed a user to the link last
night 18:05:29 <nirik> bummer.
18:05:30 * Khaytsus
18:05:32 <nirik> hopefully soon.
18:05:49 * Sonar_Gal
18:06:00 * nb
18:06:08 <nirik> There were some broken deps in f20 updates issues, but
they were all fixed pretty fast and should be ok now. 18:06:34 <nirik>
as always asking people to use --skip-broken or just waiting a while
should clear those up 18:07:49 <nirik> otherwise it's been reasonably
normal. 18:08:18 <Khaytsus> How's the antispameta bot doing? 18:08:40
<nirik> it's not bothered me any, not seen much it's done tho 18:08:58
<Khaytsus> Right. So either users are behaving, or it's not alerting.
Seems I did see one alert from it. 18:09:03 <Khaytsus> I set a
highlight for it 18:09:05 <nb> it's alerted a couple times 18:09:08
<nb> i think 18:09:33 <Khaytsus> I might have set the hilight late,
seems 3-4 days ago 18:10:04 <Khaytsus> We didn't expect it to be
babbling all of the time anyway :) 18:10:07 <nb> #info if anyone wants
AntiSpamMeta to hilight them on alerts, let me know 18:10:36 <nirik>
yeah, quiet is good. 18:10:50 <EvilBob> I still think we should put it
in #fedora-unregistered to skew it's data 18:10:58 <EvilBob> ;)
18:11:01 <cantstanya> its*
18:11:48 <nirik> #topic Open Floor
18:11:55 <nirik> anyone have items for open floor?
18:12:08 <Khaytsus> nb: Hilighting on this should work for all users,
right? att-#fedora 18:12:12 <cantstanya> hi, it's me, cantstanya
18:12:17 <cantstanya> OK so, nirik is probably related to ikonia (the
guy from Umbongo). EvilBob is definitely related to IdleOne (from
Umbongo) and Darth_Slack (from Slackware). All five aforementioned
individuals, in addition to fenris02, are jelly of my belly. Also
EvilBob has been on bully overdrive lately. 18:12:30 <Khaytsus> defuq?
18:12:37 <cantstanya> that will be all. 18:12:53 <Khaytsus> Thanks for
your input. 18:13:02 <cantstanya> your welcome 18:13:06 <Khaytsus>
you're 18:13:08 <nirik> cantstanya: ok, so back to ban for you then I
guess? 18:13:12 <cantstanya> no it's yours 18:13:17 <cantstanya> not
you are 18:13:24 <Khaytsus> Anywho.
18:14:05 * EvilBob just shakes his head
18:14:26 <Khaytsus> I had something else but I lost it in that train
wreck 18:14:33 * Sonar_Gal is watching
18:14:34 <Khaytsus> But it wasn't anything important
18:14:37 <nb> Khaytsus, yeah
18:14:44 <Khaytsus> Ticket 165 going to hang out forever?
18:15:20 <nirik> oh, I thought I closed that long ago...
18:15:23 <nirik> we discussed it.
18:15:56 <Khaytsus> nb: Thanks. It alerts in #fedora-ops right? How
about for other channels it's in (or is it in any others yet?) 18:16:12
<nirik> would someone like to go close that ticket? if not, I can try
later... 18:16:31 <nb> Khaytsus, yeah, it alerts in #fedora-ops for
#fedora and #fedora-social 18:16:40 <Khaytsus> nb: That'll do it for
me :) 18:16:53 <nb> it's only in those two, plus -ops for fedora.
other channels alert in their own ops channels 18:16:58 <Khaytsus>
Gotcha 18:17:52 <EvilBob> nirik: So is cantstanya going back in the ban
list then? 18:18:20 <EvilBob> nirik: They asked to be removed just so
they could solve a problem and then wanted to be returned to it.
18:18:29 <nirik> well, they asked us to after they asked that one
question, so, sure, happy to honor the request. 18:18:41 <cantstanya>
EvilBob: stop being so angry. 18:18:53 <EvilBob> nirik: Good enough for
me. 18:19:35 <EvilBob> cantstanya: stop attacking people that were on
your side. 18:19:49 <EvilBob> Hell, just stop attacking people 18:19:54
<EvilBob> Best of luck to you. 18:20:13 <cantstanya> Pointing out the
obvious isn't attacking, but okay. 18:20:20 * nirik shakes his head.
18:20:29 <nirik> anyhow, will close out in a minute if nothing else.
18:21:03 <nirik> Thanks for coming everyone. 18:21:05 <nirik>
#endmeeting
10 years, 1 month
Server Technical Specification Working Session Minutes (2014-02-27)
by Stephen Gallagher
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
Hash: SHA1
==============================================================================
#fedora-meeting-1: Server Technical Specification Working Session
(2014-02-27)
==============================================================================
Meeting started by sgallagh at 15:00:35 UTC. The full logs are available
at
http://meetbot.fedoraproject.org/fedora-meeting-1/2014-02-27/fedora-meeti...
.
Meeting summary
- ---------------
* roll call (sgallagh, 15:00:47)
* Supported Architectures (sgallagh, 15:08:48)
* AGREED: Fedora Server will support ix86, x86_64 and armv7hl
architectures on the XFS filesystem (+5, 0, -0) (sgallagh,
15:25:55)
* Partitioning and LVM (sgallagh, 15:26:04)
* By default, /tmp should be on disk, not a tmpfs (mitr, 15:51:10)
* ACTION: sgallagh to talk with anaconda devs about guided vs. custom
partition changes (sgallagh, 15:54:18)
* For anaconda discussions: 1) do we eliminate the option or give
choice - talk to anaconda, 2) do we want LVM by default, 3) thinp by
default (sgallagh, 15:56:02)
* AGREED: Fedora Server would prefer a single choice for the guided
storage setup (+5, 0, 0) (sgallagh, 16:14:42)
* AGREED: Fedora Server would prefer the use of LVM backing the
non-/boot partitions (+5, 0, 0) (sgallagh, 16:15:11)
* No consensus was reached on the topic of LVM thin-provisioning
(sgallagh, 16:15:26)
* Keep in mind the multiple-disk installation case. (sgallagh,
16:32:25)
* Firewall (sgallagh, 16:40:09)
* AGREED: Fedora Server will enable firewalld by default (+5, 0, 0)
(sgallagh, 16:40:11)
* Server Desktop (sgallagh, 16:40:18)
* Software Installation (sgallagh, 16:57:58)
* AGREED: Available packages will be shown based on the selected
install source. Fedora Server will not restrict any from being
installed, but does not commit to supporting anything not part of
the Roles. (+5, 0, 0) (sgallagh, 17:03:28)
Meeting ended at 17:03:33 UTC.
Action Items
- ------------
* sgallagh to talk with anaconda devs about guided vs. custom partition
changes
Action Items, by person
- -----------------------
* sgallagh
* sgallagh to talk with anaconda devs about guided vs. custom
partition changes
* **UNASSIGNED**
* (none)
People Present (lines said)
- ---------------------------
* sgallagh (194)
* simo (174)
* adamw (77)
* nirik (66)
* mitr (53)
* jwb (31)
* pjones- (13)
* mizmo (10)
* zodbot (6)
* tuanta (4)
* spot (3)
* andreasn_ (3)
* abadger1999 (2)
* Evolution (0)
* davidstrauss (0)
Generated by `MeetBot`_ 0.1.4
.. _`MeetBot`: http://wiki.debian.org/MeetBot
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10 years, 1 month
Minutes from today's (26 February 2014) Cloud WG Meeting
by Joe Brockmeier
==========================================
#fedora-meeting-1: cloud WG weekly meeting
==========================================
Meeting started by jzb at 17:01:42 UTC. The full logs are available at
http://meetbot.fedoraproject.org/fedora-meeting-1/2014-02-26/fedora-meeti...
.
Meeting summary
---------------
* Status on Cloud To-Do list (jzb, 17:04:59)
* https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Cloud/Cloud_ToDo (jzb, 17:05:12)
* ACTION: mattdm ping about getting a Cantas board set up. (jzb,
17:06:26)
* https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Cloud_Changelist (mattdm, 17:07:32)
* ACTION: jzb send call for activity day Friday. (jzb, 17:10:19)
* Technical Specification Sample:
https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Workstation/Technical_Specification
(jzb, 17:11:56)
*
https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Cloud/Cloud_ToDo#technical_specifications
(mattdm, 17:12:53)
* New Business (jzb, 17:15:54)
* ACTION: mattdm to ping zooz about GCE status, connect up with Google
people (mattdm, 17:17:08)
* mattdm also working on hp cloud and amazon marketplace internally
(mattdm, 17:17:41)
Meeting ended at 17:19:22 UTC.
Action Items
------------
* mattdm ping about getting a Cantas board set up.
* jzb send call for activity day Friday.
* mattdm to ping zooz about GCE status, connect up with Google people
Action Items, by person
-----------------------
* jzb
* jzb send call for activity day Friday.
* mattdm
* mattdm ping about getting a Cantas board set up.
* mattdm to ping zooz about GCE status, connect up with Google people
* **UNASSIGNED**
* (none)
People Present (lines said)
---------------------------
* mattdm (37)
* jzb (35)
* zodbot (5)
* geppetto (1)
* samkottler (0)
* rbergeron (0)
Generated by `MeetBot`_ 0.1.4
.. _`MeetBot`: http://wiki.debian.org/MeetBot
--
Joe Brockmeier | Principal Cloud & Storage Analyst
jzb(a)redhat.com | http://community.redhat.com/
Twitter: @jzb | http://dissociatedpress.net/
10 years, 1 month
Summary/Minutes from today's FESCo Meeting (2014-02-26)
by Kevin Fenzi
===================================
#fedora-meeting: FESCO (2014-02-26)
===================================
Meeting started by nirik at 18:00:06 UTC. The full logs are available at
http://meetbot.fedoraproject.org/fedora-meeting/2014-02-26/fesco.2014-02-...
.
Meeting summary
---------------
* init process/roll call (nirik, 18:00:07)
* ticket #1178 Fedora 21 scheduling strategy (nirik, 18:03:54)
* LINK: https://fedorahosted.org/fesco/ticket/1178 (nirik, 18:03:54)
* Websites team is asking for 6 weeks before alpha (instead of normal
2 weeks), with content, features, and dl links known before then
(mattdm, 18:06:41)
* changes here are the changes process, not changes to how fedora is
made (nirik, 18:18:39)
* AGREED: Fedora Changes Process submission deadline for system-wide
changes is April 7th. Deadline for true standalone changes will be
sometime later than that. Changes to how fedora is produced for
fedora.next are still due on March 3rd. (+7,0,0) (nirik, 18:29:42)
* ticket #1221 Product working group activity reports (nirik, 18:31:50)
* LINK: https://fedorahosted.org/fesco/ticket/1221 (nirik, 18:31:50)
* cloud WG is holding an online activity day on Friday to get the list
of changes/requirements into shape for next week's deadline
(mattdm, 18:32:56)
* server is going to have another meeting thursday to work on it's
changes. (nirik, 18:33:21)
* ACTION: nirik to follow progress of different install frontend from
workstation (nirik, 18:41:04)
* ticket #1235 Gnome 3.12 update for F20 (nirik, 18:43:26)
* LINK: https://fedorahosted.org/fesco/ticket/1235 (nirik, 18:43:26)
* AGREED: defer this for now, revisit when sig asks us to do so
(+8,0,0) (nirik, 18:49:22)
* ticket #1237 Graceful handling of guideline violating content (nirik,
18:49:51)
* LINK: https://fedorahosted.org/fesco/ticket/1237 (nirik, 18:49:51)
* AGREED: no FESCo change. The FPC could update the guidelines if they
want, but FESCo recommends that no change be made (+8,0,0) (nirik,
18:59:04)
* ticket #1238 Should Bodhi reset karma to 0 when builds are changed?
(nirik, 18:59:26)
* LINK: https://fedorahosted.org/fesco/ticket/1238 (nirik, 18:59:26)
* AGREED: FESCo agrees that karma should be reset when packages are
edited in an update (+8,-1,0) (nirik, 19:07:47)
* LINK: https://bugzilla.redhat.com/show_bug.cgi?id=1020839 (nirik,
19:08:28)
* Next weeks chair (nirik, 19:08:35)
* notting to chair next week (nirik, 19:09:00)
* Open Floor (nirik, 19:09:06)
* retester badge idea!
https://fedorahosted.org/fedora-badges/ticket/251 (mattdm,
19:10:24)
Meeting ended at 19:16:13 UTC.
Action Items
------------
* nirik to follow progress of different install frontend from
workstation
Action Items, by person
-----------------------
* nirik
* nirik to follow progress of different install frontend from
workstation
* **UNASSIGNED**
* (none)
People Present (lines said)
---------------------------
* nirik (108)
* mattdm (79)
* sgallagh (50)
* dgilmore (44)
* abadger1999 (26)
* pjones (26)
* mitr (24)
* jreznik (20)
* notting (15)
* zodbot (12)
* jwb (9)
* ajax (3)
* drago01 (2)
* t8m (0)
* mmaslano (0)
--
18:00:06 <nirik> #startmeeting FESCO (2014-02-26)
18:00:06 <zodbot> Meeting started Wed Feb 26 18:00:06 2014 UTC. The chair is nirik. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.debian.org/MeetBot.
18:00:06 <zodbot> Useful Commands: #action #agreed #halp #info #idea #link #topic.
18:00:07 <nirik> #meetingname fesco
18:00:07 <nirik> #chair abadger1999 dgilmore mattdm mitr notting nirik pjones t8m sgallagh mmaslano jwb
18:00:07 <nirik> #topic init process/roll call
18:00:07 <zodbot> The meeting name has been set to 'fesco'
18:00:07 <zodbot> Current chairs: abadger1999 dgilmore jwb mattdm mitr mmaslano nirik notting pjones sgallagh t8m
18:00:15 <sgallagh> .hellomynameis sgallagh
18:00:17 <zodbot> sgallagh: sgallagh 'Stephen Gallagher' <sgallagh(a)redhat.com>
18:00:31 * abadger1999 here
18:00:37 * notting is here
18:00:48 <jwb> i am somewhat here
18:01:17 <mattdm> I am all here, as the cloud meeting ending nice and early
18:01:19 * jreznik is available for anything fesco wants from him ;)
18:01:30 <mattdm> jreznik Cake, please.
18:01:48 <mitr> Hello all
18:02:57 * dgilmore is here
18:03:32 <nirik> ok, I guess lets go ahead and get started...
18:03:33 <pjones> yay, my other meeting ended.
18:03:50 <nirik> pjones: cool. :) sadly this one is just begun...
18:03:54 <nirik> #topic ticket #1178 Fedora 21 scheduling strategy
18:03:54 <nirik> .fesco 1178
18:03:54 <nirik> https://fedorahosted.org/fesco/ticket/1178
18:03:56 <zodbot> nirik: #1178 (Fedora 21 scheduling strategy) – FESCo - https://fedorahosted.org/fesco/ticket/1178
18:04:21 <nirik> so, in this ticket it was suggested we set a 'not sooner than' for deadline for changes... thoughts? discussion?
18:04:34 <notting> there was a response from websites on-list with actual data about time they needed
18:05:03 <nirik> yeah.
18:05:25 <jreznik> nirik: it was in changes ticket, so far I just announced it's opened and asked folks to submit them asap... if you set deadline, I'll send update
18:05:32 <nirik> they also noted they were unsure what we wanted to do with spins.fedoraproject.org... which we should clarify if we can?
18:05:32 <mattdm> they're asking for 6 weeks before alpha
18:06:23 <dgilmore> mattdm: websites likely has a lot of work to do
18:06:41 <mattdm> #info Websites team is asking for 6 weeks before alpha (instead of normal 2 weeks), with content, features, and dl links known before then
18:07:06 <jreznik> mattdm: with august in mind (not saying it's the target, just to put it into context), alpha would have to in the end of May
18:07:30 <jreznik> and before that 6 weeks you need answers for website guys first, so add a few more weeks
18:07:49 * dgilmore rerally thinks we should look at october, see if we can get done what we want to in that time
18:07:49 <mattdm> jreznik So mid april for all the features to be finalized?F
18:08:00 <mattdm> dgilmore +1 to the last two things you've said :)
18:08:45 <mattdm> I'm ready to declare a Halloween release and then work back from there
18:08:45 <notting> jreznik: six weeks before that alpha would mean we'd need answers for websites RSN
18:08:46 <nirik> I don't think we should set the schedule today...
18:08:46 <jreznik> dgilmore: it's really becoming october but let's have that data collected first before playing with it for several times
18:08:56 <jreznik> nirik: no
18:08:56 <dgilmore> I think having a deadline of sorts people will know I can get foo done in that time. we may not get everything we want but we should be able to make a great start
18:09:02 <nirik> we could set a deadline for changes tho if we wanted...
18:09:33 <mattdm> nirik change submission?
18:10:01 <nirik> right.
18:10:25 <jreznik> for change submission I'd like to have some flexibility in accepting changes even later, on the other hand it would be nice to have overview of what's going to happen as soon as possible
18:10:34 <jreznik> ask WGs to break PRDs/tech specs into changes
18:10:46 <mattdm> jreznik +1
18:11:00 <mattdm> maybe we require those changes _first_?
18:11:00 <jreznik> ask other teams to propose changes too - and you know, it depends on what WGs wants etc
18:11:15 <jreznik> mattdm: yeah, maybe
18:11:22 <nirik> we are asking working groups to give us info by march 3rd currently.
18:11:57 <jreznik> nirik: it's tech spec - so beginning of April to break it into changes?
18:12:01 <mattdm> the cloud wg is basically making a list of changes we plan to file
18:12:16 <mattdm> jreznik +1
18:12:23 <nirik> I don't know. we are kinda operating in new lands here.
18:12:36 <mattdm> and then let's ask for other system-wide changes to be filed by the same time
18:12:37 <jreznik> we are, but change process fits pretty well here
18:13:14 <pjones> mattdm: yeah, that sounds like a workable plan
18:13:44 <mattdm> and then we can have a second deadline later for the stand-alone changes
18:14:00 <mattdm> and we can also accept system-wide changes on a case-by-case basis, with a naturally higher bar
18:14:03 <notting> mattdm: that seems workable
18:14:06 <nirik> sure
18:14:23 <mattdm> (last statement meant to be "can accept later")
18:14:42 <sgallagh> The only problem with having a later deadline for stand-alone is that sometimes those get promoted to "system-wide"
18:14:46 <nirik> so, concrete proposal(s)?
18:15:14 <mattdm> sgallagh good point -- maybe some wording in the deadline annoucement along those lines
18:15:22 <jreznik> sgallagh: again - case by case
18:15:37 <sgallagh> Right, but with a later deadline, they by definition have less time to sort it out
18:15:40 <mattdm> ("if you think this might _possibly_ have wider impact, getting this in sooner rather than later is best for all")
18:15:46 <sgallagh> Or else we have to slip, etc.
18:15:53 <jreznik> and I'm ok with this way - actually something I really wanted
18:15:54 <mattdm> ("if you think your self-contained change might _possibly_ have wider impact, getting this in sooner rather than later is best for all")
18:16:08 <jreznik> yep
18:17:08 <mattdm> #proposal Changes from working group prds/tech specs, and other system-wide changes, due April 7th
18:17:17 <mattdm> (first monday in april)
18:17:38 <jreznik> wfm
18:17:43 <sgallagh> mattdm: +1
18:17:51 <nirik> so, we would then set the schedule after that?
18:18:01 <mattdm> nirik yes?
18:18:02 <abadger1999> For meeting notes, could we make cleat that this is part of the changes process rather than the "changes to how fedora is produced"?
18:18:18 <abadger1999> *clear
18:18:22 <nirik> thats longer without a clear schedule, but sure I guess.
18:18:35 <mattdm> abadger1999 the changes process is how we make changes to how fedora is produced, right/
18:18:37 <mattdm> ?
18:18:39 <nirik> #info changes here are the changes process, not changes to how fedora is made
18:18:59 <notting> mattdm: +1
18:19:02 <abadger1999> mattdm: Not that I've been thinking... I've been thinking that the Changes process is what is changing within fedora.
18:19:28 <mattdm> abadger1999 eg changes process applies to fedora-distribution, not to fedora-project
18:19:38 <mattdm> sure I guess that's reasonable.
18:19:45 <abadger1999> mattdm: The changes to how fedora is produced continue to be due on Mar 3 and then we work out with releng/infra/etc which of those things are doable in our timeframe.
18:19:49 <dgilmore> abadger1999: right, we could use the change process for how we produce fedora
18:20:06 <dgilmore> but to me its changes in fedora
18:20:33 <mattdm> abadger1999 got it. although for the cloud wg at least, most of our stuff will be expressable in the form of this type of Changes
18:20:35 <nirik> abadger1999: right, but those things we do do, we also make into 'changes' so we can track them and have people following them, etc.
18:20:52 <abadger1999> nirik: <nod> That would be fine for me.
18:21:02 <jreznik> abadger1999: idea is to break these tech specs into changes, so it's trackable etc.
18:21:12 <jreznik> nirik was faster :)
18:21:23 <mattdm> I see that it is kind of an expansion of the scope of the changes process, but I think it's a reasonable one
18:21:25 <abadger1999> I just don't want to see new changes to how fedora is produced for the first time on April 7th
18:21:45 <mattdm> given that we don't really have a framework for the other, and this is a relatively lightweight and already tested one
18:21:46 <jreznik> abadger1999: no, definitely not
18:21:57 <nirik> abadger1999: +1
18:22:01 <dgilmore> abadger1999: we will likely see those changes later than that
18:22:17 <mattdm> dgilmore I think abadger1999 means the _plan_ for them
18:22:19 <mattdm> not the implementation
18:22:25 <abadger1999> mattdm: right.
18:22:31 <dgilmore> mattdm: well I can't do the plan yet
18:22:38 <jreznik> mattdm: well, it's standard process how even our downstream produces theirs releases
18:22:39 <nirik> right. I think we should feel free to reject anything like that that shows up at the last minute...
18:22:51 <dgilmore> because I don't know, trying to get some tools opened up
18:23:00 <dgilmore> which needs a legal review and sign off
18:23:15 <nirik> there could always be exceptions...
18:23:15 <dgilmore> which I don't know when or if that will happen
18:23:21 <mattdm> dgilmore okay, so, it might be more like "a plan for a plan".
18:23:38 <mattdm> and if we have the high-level tracking for that as a change, we can know what the blockers are
18:23:50 <dgilmore> its very wishy washy right now what exact changes we will get
18:23:55 <mattdm> and for example ask spot to try to unblock certain things
18:24:29 <abadger1999> #proposal Fedora Changes Process submission deadline is April 7th. Changes to how fedora is produced for fedora.next are still due on March 3rd.
18:24:30 <dgilmore> mattdm: its nothing to do with spot
18:24:51 <mattdm> dgilmore yeah but he is in a position to help, I think.
18:24:55 <nirik> dgilmore: if it misses this time it could be next, or it could be an exception...
18:24:57 <abadger1999> err... I left out system-wide there.
18:25:03 * abadger1999 adds that
18:25:12 <dgilmore> mattdm: he is not in this
18:25:22 <mattdm> okay
18:25:33 <dgilmore> mattdm: current plans may fall through totally and we will have to work a new plan
18:26:06 <abadger1999> #proposal Fedora Changes Process submission deadline for system-wide changes is April 7th. Deadline for true standalone changes will be sometime later than that. Changes to how fedora is produced for fedora.next are still due on March 3rd.
18:26:18 <mattdm> abadger1999 +1
18:26:24 <notting> abadger1999: +1
18:26:27 <abadger1999> +1
18:26:28 <nirik> sure, +1
18:26:36 <mattdm> (with the understanding that the actual announcement will cover some of the other things discussed blah blah blah)
18:27:01 <sgallagh> abadger1999: +1
18:28:05 <mitr> Were'nt we talking about breaking the tech specs into changes _after_ Mar 3?
18:28:18 <mitr> Or am I just behind on the conversation?
18:28:21 <mattdm> mitr -- yes? april 7th
18:28:41 <dgilmore> +1
18:28:57 <abadger1999> mitr: yeah, that's to some extent fine. And very probably going to happen no matter what.
18:29:07 <dgilmore> abadger1999: though we wont know changes for how fedora is produced for a long time yet
18:29:13 <pjones> abadger1999: +1
18:29:23 <mitr> abadger1999: Agreeing on a deadline that will be ignored "no matter what" is strange
18:29:36 <mattdm> dgilmore I think you are reading that phrase in a more low-level technical sense than is meant
18:29:38 <mitr> Anyhow, this got +7? already
18:29:42 <nirik> #agreed Fedora Changes Process submission deadline for system-wide changes is April 7th. Deadline for true standalone changes will be sometime later than that. Changes to how fedora is produced for fedora.next are still due on March 3rd. (+7,0,0)
18:30:09 <nirik> anything more on this? or move on?
18:30:20 <abadger1999> mitr: My feeling is we wnat to have an outline of "We want these new things" on Mar3rd. fesco and wg's work out details of what is needed to implement those new things between then and april 7th. Have some plans with contingency plans by april 7th.
18:30:21 <dgilmore> mattdm: well there is a difference between how we produce things and what we produce
18:30:36 <dgilmore> I guess abadger1999 meant changes in what we produce
18:30:48 <mitr> abadger1999: An outline is not a set of Change pages.
18:31:05 <abadger1999> mitr: did we ask for Change pages for our March 3rd deadline?
18:31:21 <mattdm> abadger1999 no. a list.
18:31:25 <abadger1999> rihgt.
18:31:32 <mitr> abadger1999: That's how I read that, within the context of the other sentences of the decision.
18:31:40 <mitr> OK, I'm mistaken, let's move on...
18:31:43 <nirik> mitr: I think you are being confused by the overloading of the word 'changes'
18:31:50 <nirik> #topic ticket #1221 Product working group activity reports
18:31:50 <nirik> .fesco 1221
18:31:50 <nirik> https://fedorahosted.org/fesco/ticket/1221
18:31:52 <zodbot> nirik: #1221 (Product working group activity reports) – FESCo - https://fedorahosted.org/fesco/ticket/1221
18:32:01 <nirik> anything anyone would like to note or discuss?
18:32:37 <mitr> "Biggest topic around Workstation was the plan to use a different installation frontend. That needs to be discussed with the anaconda team, rcm and FESCO by the Workstation WG."
18:32:42 <nirik> I had one query... jwb: what is meant by workstation using a 'different install frontend' ?
18:32:56 <mattdm> #info cloud WG is holding an online activity day on Friday to get the list of changes/requirements into shape for next week's deadline
18:33:21 <nirik> #info server is going to have another meeting thursday to work on it's changes.
18:33:24 <jwb> nirik, unless i can summon mclasen, i will probably have to get back to you on that if you want specifics
18:33:52 <nirik> ok, fair enough. This is just changes to anaconda defaults/paths? or is it being proposed to write an entirely new installer?
18:34:00 <jwb> basically i think the desire is to make an install somehow more scoped to the product installation
18:34:19 <jwb> i've suggested that it be anaconda, with perhaps some work from the WG on a different frontend or plugin to do that
18:34:26 <ajax> i would expect "frontend" here to mean the UI and possibly the defaults
18:34:27 <dgilmore> jwb: beyond different groups and package sets?
18:34:35 <jwb> but i haven't had time to follow up with everyone on this yet
18:34:41 <jwb> dgilmore, yes, beyond that
18:34:43 <jwb> now...
18:34:45 <ajax> if they meant "replace anaconda as kickstart parser and backend" i think they'd have said that
18:34:58 <mattdm> new anaconda design is very amenable to plugins and other little modifications
18:35:11 <nirik> fair enough... 'install frontend' makes me worry someone is talking about writing a new installer.
18:35:19 <jwb> if FESCo wants to enforce anaconda usage across the products to avoid entirely new installers, please say so
18:35:31 <jwb> i don't think that's the intention here, but you could clarify anyway
18:35:38 <pjones> I'm pretty sure we have actually said that in the past.
18:35:55 <ajax> pjones: likewise
18:35:57 <mitr> jwb: pknisrch has explicitly brought this up as "needs to be discussed by FESCo", so we do
18:35:59 <sgallagh> Actually, I'm pretty sure we left that to the Base Design group to assert.
18:36:00 <nirik> could be. I'm happy saying that. ;)
18:36:05 <pjones> sgallagh: no, before that.
18:36:07 <mattdm> I think writing a new installer would be so much crazy work that it would be redundant to forbid it
18:36:23 <sgallagh> mattdm: +1
18:36:32 <pjones> mattdm: and yet there have been mockups produced in the past...
18:36:58 <mitr> mattdm: That's not always stopped people :)
18:37:00 <nirik> in any case, I think customizing the way anaconda presents things/defaults is a great idea for workstation, and one nice thing having products helps us do.
18:37:28 <mitr> Anyway, we should probably wait for either Base or Workstation to bring at least a core of a proposal (or a summary of an agreement :) )
18:37:36 <pjones> mitr: yeah.
18:38:10 <mitr> Do we want a separate ticket to track this now, or leave this up to Base/Workstation as well for now?
18:38:34 <nirik> I just wanted clarification. I can ask/follow on the workstation mailing list for that
18:38:39 <mattdm> I'm also a little bit reluctant to flat out forbid possible areas of innovation. I think it would be better to give requirements ("must support kickstart" or whatever)... and I think it's best for the base wg to do that.
18:38:43 <sgallagh> nirik: Please do
18:38:53 <abadger1999> sgallagh: We failed to leave that up to Base Design last week for lack of a specific caes... this would be a specific case, though :-)
18:39:20 * nirik is fine letting things move on for a while and get sorted out by the folks we appointed to work on the products. ;)
18:39:32 <pjones> mattdm: if we say "must support kickstart" and that results in a second implementation of kickstart and now we've got compatibility overhead, I'm going to be mighty pissed off.
18:39:53 <mattdm> pjones true.
18:40:05 <mattdm> that was an off-the-cuff example.
18:40:22 <nirik> shall we move on? or is there other stuff we wanted to discuss or ask about?
18:40:37 <sgallagh> nirik: Mind taking an action item on talking to Workstation for clarification?
18:41:04 <nirik> #action nirik to follow progress of different install frontend from workstation
18:41:06 <nirik> ok?
18:41:39 <mattdm> anyone else want to drop some infos for the meeting minutes?
18:41:40 <dgilmore> we rejected box grinder as a suitable tool for making fedora because it didnt take a kickstart as input
18:41:56 <dgilmore> they added commands in comments in the kickstart
18:42:45 <pjones> ew.
18:42:46 <nirik> dgilmore: oh yeah, that was fun.
18:42:46 <dgilmore> I think its well understood that we support kickstart at the core andf that it needs to remain compatable
18:43:25 <mattdm> yes. but that was totally a side-track we shouldn't go into now please
18:43:26 <nirik> #topic ticket #1235 Gnome 3.12 update for F20
18:43:26 <nirik> .fesco 1235
18:43:26 <nirik> https://fedorahosted.org/fesco/ticket/1235
18:43:26 <nirik>
18:43:29 <zodbot> nirik: #1235 (Gnome 3.12 update for F20) – FESCo - https://fedorahosted.org/fesco/ticket/1235
18:43:51 <mattdm> I think this should be deferred, based on mailing list discussion
18:43:54 <sgallagh> Show of hands: who has been running hughsie's COPR?
18:43:57 <notting> yeah, i think so
18:44:00 * sgallagh raises his hand
18:44:02 <nirik> I'm ok in principal with this, but would want it to go thru a lot of testing.
18:44:08 <mattdm> sgallagh not me -- I'm running rawhide
18:44:10 <nirik> and we don't know the full scope yeah...
18:44:28 <dgilmore> sgallagh: would have to use gnome first
18:44:34 <mattdm> As I said in the ticket, I'm good as long as the extensions effort happens
18:44:44 <sgallagh> dgilmore: I use a *heavily* modded GNOME 3
18:44:57 <sgallagh> Astonishingly, all of my extensions continued to work from 3.10
18:45:04 <sgallagh> That's worth something, at least.
18:45:35 <dgilmore> i think making sure extentions continue to work is a must
18:45:43 <mattdm> sgallagh I've got two that don't out of twelve.
18:45:56 <nirik> if we defer, when do we defer till?
18:46:01 <nirik> when 3.12 is released?
18:46:04 <nirik> before that?
18:46:09 <dgilmore> KDE update to new major releases, I don't think we can stop gnome, but we need to make sure its well tested and all pushed together
18:46:16 <mattdm> nirik until the SIG wants to reopen it?
18:46:30 <mitr> nirik: 1) til the desktop SIG actually ask us about this, 2) I'd kind of like to see answers to my comment#1
18:46:31 <nirik> dgilmore: +1, I agree
18:46:43 <drago01> most of them should work after bumping the number in json ... ones that connect to dbus and use e4x should get updated to use a string for the xml instead (takes about 30 sec to fix)
18:46:46 <mitr> dgilmore: KDE have set this policy in advance
18:46:51 <drago01> but mostly needs testing
18:47:06 <nirik> proposal: defer this for now, revisit when sig asks us to do so.
18:47:10 <dgilmore> mitr: right, which is why we need to make sure that its handled carefully.
18:47:16 <notting> nirik: wfm
18:47:18 <notting> +1
18:47:20 <pjones> mitr: I'm not sure that makes much difference
18:47:21 <mitr> nirik: +1
18:47:23 <dgilmore> but I don't think we can stop it
18:47:40 <dgilmore> nirik: +1
18:47:41 <mitr> pjones: Not sure about "much" either
18:47:43 <mattdm> nirik +1
18:47:55 <pjones> nirik: +1
18:48:28 <mattdm> dgilmore sure we can, but it's better when it doesn't come to that!
18:48:50 <pjones> mattdm: truth
18:48:51 <nirik> #agreed defer this for now, revisit when sig asks us to do so (+6,0,0)
18:48:53 <sgallagh> dgilmore: No one is trying to bludgeon it in
18:48:53 <abadger1999> nirik: +1
18:48:58 <nirik> #undo
18:48:58 <zodbot> Removing item from minutes: AGREED by nirik at 18:48:51 : defer this for now, revisit when sig asks us to do so (+6,0,0)
18:49:00 <sgallagh> In fact, I'm very pleased with how they've gone about this.
18:49:07 <nirik> #agreed defer this for now, revisit when sig asks us to do so (+7,0,0)
18:49:09 <sgallagh> +1 to the proposal, FWIW
18:49:16 <nirik> #undo
18:49:16 <zodbot> Removing item from minutes: AGREED by nirik at 18:49:07 : defer this for now, revisit when sig asks us to do so (+7,0,0)
18:49:22 <nirik> #agreed defer this for now, revisit when sig asks us to do so (+8,0,0)
18:49:31 <nirik> such a handy thing, undo. ;)
18:49:41 <sgallagh> I wish it applied to more of life...
18:49:51 <nirik> #topic ticket #1237 Graceful handling of guideline violating content
18:49:51 <nirik> .fesco 1237
18:49:51 <nirik> https://fedorahosted.org/fesco/ticket/1237
18:49:52 <zodbot> nirik: #1237 (Graceful handling of guideline violating content) – FESCo - https://fedorahosted.org/fesco/ticket/1237
18:50:28 <nirik> I think this is a lot of hypothetical. ;)
18:50:44 <mattdm> #proposal: no FESCo change. The FPC could update the guidelines if they want
18:50:47 <sgallagh> I stand by my statement in the ticket. If we've decided it's unacceptable, providing a policy to go around that decision is ridiculous
18:50:58 <dgilmore> sgallagh: indeed
18:51:07 <sgallagh> Let them build from source if they want desperately their penis-icon (or whatever0
18:51:44 <pjones> mattdm: +1
18:51:45 <nirik> mattdm: +1
18:52:18 <sgallagh> Counter-proposal: FESCo recommends that no policy change be made to simplify this.
18:52:41 <nirik> I'm +1 to that too.
18:52:44 <sgallagh> I'm -1 to mattdm on this.
18:52:45 <mitr> mattdm: +1
18:52:47 <dgilmore> +1
18:52:54 <sgallagh> dgilmore: Which?
18:53:16 <mattdm> I'm 0 to sgallagh's :)
18:53:18 <notting> i'm +1 to sgallagh
18:53:38 <mattdm> yay counting!
18:53:49 <dgilmore> sgallagh: FPC changing guidelines is always an option, +1 to recommending no changes be made
18:53:53 <nirik> mattdm: +4/-1, sgallagh: +3
18:53:56 <abadger1999> sgallagh: +1
18:54:07 <mitr> sgallagh: FPC is the right body to handle this in any case; I think we do have some precedent for packaging guidelines to work well with non-Fedora use cases, so there's little reason to _forbid_ this, though why would anyone want to spend time on having such a policy is a mystery to me
18:54:21 <nirik> so I think that gives sgallagh's +5?
18:54:56 <sgallagh> mitr: Was that a +1 to my statement?
18:55:13 <mitr> sgallagh: That was -1
18:55:30 <abadger1999> nirik: it's hard to tell but I think it's +5 if sgallagh is +1 to his own proposal.
18:55:40 <sgallagh> I'm +1 to my own, yes
18:56:03 <nirik> mitr / mattdm: so you object to us telling FPC not to change this? or ?
18:56:04 <mitr> sgallagh: But I think I'll go with "whatever means FESCo won't spend more time on this"
18:56:14 <notting> i'm +1 to mattdm as well
18:56:35 <abadger1999> +1 mattdm too.
18:56:38 * nirik notes sgallagh's proposal is 'reccommends' not 'orders'
18:56:47 * sgallagh nods
18:56:50 <mitr> nirik: I think this is in FPCs jurisdiction, and giving users such a choice is in principle not objectionable to me. I fully expect FPC to refuse.
18:56:51 <nirik> so, perhaps we can come up with one proposal everyone can agree on?
18:57:09 <mattdm> #proposal: no FESCo change. The FPC could update the guidelines if they want, but FESCo recommends that no change be made
18:57:19 <mitr> +1
18:57:20 <abadger1999> +1
18:57:21 <pjones> mattdm: +1
18:57:22 <nirik> +1
18:57:32 <sgallagh> nirik: I think we basically just agreed with "No FESCo change. The FPC could update the guidelines if they want. FESCo recommends that no policy change be made to simplify this."
18:57:46 <sgallagh> mattdm: +1
18:57:55 <mattdm> +1 myself to make the counting easier :)
18:58:07 <nirik> dgilmore / notting ?
18:58:14 <notting> +1
18:58:49 <pjones> I'm still for this proposal, but there's some degree to which we maybe want to say that disagreements with FPC rulings need to be less of "mommy says no ask daddy".
18:58:59 <dgilmore> +1
18:59:04 <nirik> #agreed no FESCo change. The FPC could update the guidelines if they want, but FESCo recommends that no change be made (+8,0,0)
18:59:26 <nirik> #topic ticket #1238 Should Bodhi reset karma to 0 when builds are changed?
18:59:26 <nirik> .fesco 1238
18:59:26 <nirik> https://fedorahosted.org/fesco/ticket/1238
18:59:28 <zodbot> nirik: #1238 (Should Bodhi reset karma to 0 when builds are changed?) – FESCo - https://fedorahosted.org/fesco/ticket/1238
18:59:36 <nirik> +1 to reset here.
18:59:40 <nirik> t8m was +1 in ticket
18:59:53 <notting> it makes sense to me. +1
18:59:55 <pjones> +1
18:59:57 * mattdm had no idea this wasn't the way it already worked
18:59:58 <mattdm> +`1
19:00:00 <nirik> mitr was also +1, but is here too. ;)
19:00:11 <pjones> mattdm: yeah, likewise.
19:00:11 <dgilmore> +1 to reset
19:00:14 <mitr> Yes, +1
19:00:27 <sgallagh> -1 (I have reasons)
19:00:40 <mattdm> sgallagh let's hear em!
19:00:43 <dgilmore> bodhi needs a lot of work
19:00:49 <nirik> there's always one person in a crowd. ;)
19:00:49 <dgilmore> sgallagh: indeed please share
19:00:58 <sgallagh> First of all, we already have a system that rarely gets sufficient karma to begin with.
19:01:13 <mattdm> dgilmore top priority after taskotron and hyperkitty :)
19:01:23 <pjones> sgallagh: irrelevant, if the karma isn't for the thing on the update.
19:01:27 <sgallagh> By resetting positive karma when an update is updated, we're telling people that the time they spent to vote on it was wasted
19:01:59 <sgallagh> I can see people who voted negatively being inclined to retest and change to positive if their issue is fixed.
19:02:00 <pjones> I mean that's unfortunate, but you're making "we can't get enough testing" an argument for ignoring that we haven't got enough testing.
19:02:22 <sgallagh> No, I'm using "my testing is ignored, so why bother" as an argument
19:02:31 <nirik> so, making testers happy is more important than actually producing tested things ? ;)
19:02:34 <sgallagh> I think this change will actively reduce the willingness of testers
19:02:52 <mattdm> I don't get why it correlates to "my testing is ignored"
19:02:56 <sgallagh> It provides a negative-feedback response to good behavior
19:03:04 <mattdm> testing was useful for previous thing, and now there is a new thing
19:03:09 <mattdm> new thing is different from old thing.
19:03:21 <nirik> another chance to test!
19:03:26 <sgallagh> mattdm: "Nothing I cared about changed, but now I have to update the karma again?"
19:03:28 <mattdm> more badges!
19:03:39 <pjones> I agree we need to make testing more appealing and plausibly even make it /seem/ more rewarding, but misapplying old tests is a really bad way to do that.
19:03:41 <dgilmore> sgallagh: we have no way to know that
19:03:42 <mattdm> sgallagh How do you know nothing you cared about changed? Maybe it is broken now.
19:03:46 <sgallagh> There are a LOT of Bodhi updates out there with many packages in them
19:03:50 <mattdm> pjones +1
19:04:08 <sgallagh> Do we reset testing to zero if one of the GNOME mega-updates changes one of the lesser-known applications?
19:04:12 <notting> i think it needs to be a requirement to reset to 0 if autokarma is used. doesn't need to be overall, but if that makes it simplest....
19:04:20 <dgilmore> sgallagh: we should
19:04:23 <nirik> yes.
19:04:49 <sgallagh> I'd rather see "negative karma is reset to zero" than "all karma is reset to zero"
19:05:05 <mattdm> sgallagh In Glorious Future Bodhi 2, there are more fine-grained reports you can make, and maybe those won't all need to be reset
19:05:07 <pjones> °_O
19:05:12 <abadger1999> +1 to reset
19:05:19 <pjones> positive karma is the fiction here.
19:05:22 <nirik> mattdm: right.
19:05:35 <pjones> negative karma is the part that's not dangerous, even though it might no longer apply.
19:05:51 <pjones> false positives enable releasing software that's broken.
19:06:11 <mattdm> and paper over things being untested with what looks like positive test feedback
19:06:12 <dgilmore> sgallagh: id rather make it easy and rewarding for someone to say yes its still working
19:06:16 <sgallagh> Ok, fair point. I was trying to find a compromise, but I think I'm just going to go back to disagreeing with resetting
19:06:22 <mattdm> dgilmore +1,000,000
19:06:30 <sgallagh> dgilmore: Sure, but our current system discourages that
19:06:36 <nirik> anyhow, I guess we agree to disagree and move on? or is there either sides that are wanting to change votes?
19:06:40 <sgallagh> Right now, it's generally a *hassle* to set karma even once
19:06:43 * mattdm hands out more badges
19:06:57 <sgallagh> If we start telling people "Now you have to do it multiple times for the same update", they're just going to stop bothering.
19:06:58 <pjones> nirik: mattdm has given you the "agree to disagree and move on" badge.
19:07:02 <nirik> badge: retested a edited update
19:07:09 <mattdm> lol
19:07:14 <nirik> :)
19:07:35 <dgilmore> i see retest badges
19:07:39 <pjones> sgallagh: it's worth noting that several of the people in this conversation /thought that was the status quo/
19:07:47 <nirik> #agreed FESCo agrees that karma should be reset when packages are edited in an update (+8,-1,0)
19:07:52 <sgallagh> Can we please solve the karma-reporting problem first? Maybe work with the desktop folks on a better UI?
19:08:03 <nirik> sgallagh: there's a gui in review I think?
19:08:20 <sgallagh> nirik: I'd love to hear more about that (offline)
19:08:28 <nirik> https://bugzilla.redhat.com/show_bug.cgi?id=1020839
19:08:35 <nirik> #topic Next weeks chair
19:08:40 <nirik> who wants it?
19:08:43 <notting> i'll do it
19:09:00 <nirik> #info notting to chair next week
19:09:02 <nirik> thanks notting
19:09:06 <nirik> #topic Open Floor
19:09:12 <nirik> any items for open floor?
19:10:00 <sgallagh> General question for the WGs: Are you in good shape for the deliverable next week?
19:10:21 <sgallagh> Answering for Server WG, I think it's going to be tight, but I hope our planned meeting tomorrow gets us there.
19:10:24 <mattdm> #info retester badge idea! https://fedorahosted.org/fedora-badges/ticket/251
19:10:49 <mattdm> sgallagh Cloud WG will be good after our frantic activity day on friday :)
19:11:01 <nirik> mattdm: now you can get that badge for suggesting a badge. (If you didn't already have it)
19:11:28 <sgallagh> I think they only give that one out if your badge is accepted.
19:11:34 <mattdm> nirik _So_ already there.
19:11:35 <nirik> right.
19:12:03 <abadger1999> sgallagh: Thought on that -- it's okay to send a list that doesn't have all the deliverables scoped out... better to have a list and idea of how important it is to your plans for f21 and we can work on how long/who needs to be involved after that.
19:12:25 <sgallagh> abadger1999: Fair points
19:12:28 <nirik> communicate early and often, IMHO.
19:12:34 <abadger1999> nirik: +1
19:12:46 <dgilmore> abadger1999: I think so
19:13:28 <dgilmore> having an idea of whats needed will help others to say oh you need foo as well etc
19:13:50 <dgilmore> for instance cloud gets an install tree and media
19:14:09 <dgilmore> because its needed to make other deliverables and will let others make cloud images
19:14:50 <nirik> me nods.
19:15:00 <nirik> ok, if nothing else, will close out in a minute...
19:16:10 <nirik> ok, thanks for coming everyone!
19:16:13 <nirik> #endmeeting
10 years, 1 month
