On Wednesday 21 January 2009 22:12:45 Fernando Lopez-Lezcano wrote:
On Wed, 2009-01-21 at 15:18 -0500, Jarod Wilson wrote:
> On Wednesday 21 January 2009 14:45:27 Fernando Lopez-Lezcano wrote:
> > Sigh. Firewire. Fedora. Sigh. Faado will only work with the Planet CCRMA
> > kernel because the Fedora kernel still insists in shipping with the new
> > stack only
> The new stack beats the pants off the old one in pretty much every single
> area except this one.
Very irrelevant for firewire audio interface users.
No, I know. I misread your mail slightly, didn't catch the "only" at the
of "new stack only", I read it as "insists on shipping with the new
> In a pinch, you can replaced *just* the firewire
> drivers in the Fedora kernel w/o having to use an entirely different kernel.
I'm not replacing the kernel because the firewire drivers are not
working. I am replacing the kernel because I need a low latency kernel
for critical audio work, and Fedora does not and will not provide that.
As a side effect firewire audio devices work.
Right, sorry, forgot about that part. I know next to nothing about
firewire audio devices, probably should just keep quiet. ;) I do have
an ffado mixer working w/a basic m-audio device (or so it seems), but
that's about as much as I've done on this front...
And that is possible
without further ugly hacks because fc10 includes libraw1394 2.x. Before,
for a long time, the hacks multiplied (incompatible libraries to begin
with!!! - meaning it is not possible to boot into the two different
I could have sworn there was an F9 dual-mode libraw1394, but yeah, it
seems F10 is the first Fedora w/it. :\
"In a pinch" Fedora should have provided that from the
beginning. If it
could not it should have delayed the release till _now_, when we are
_beginning_ to see a stack and libraries stable enough for use with the
juju broken hardware (and specially libraries that can deal with both
stacks - those appeared only in fc10). And Fedora could/should have
provided a migration path.
Yeah, we kinda botched it badly all over the place -- both in Fedora and
in assorted upstream places. Shipping both stacks for a while with
dual-mode libs would have been a much better approach. I didn't realize
myself just how screwy things were until they'd already been done (F8
time frame), but at the same time, probably should have tried to do more
about it when I did. Unfortunately, the bulk of my day job isn't focused
on firewire, I do most firewire stuff on my own time.
This has been beaten to death many times before, I don't know why
bothering to write this response.
Apologies for striking a nerve.
> Note that as of 2.6.30, I believe ffado should work just fine
> new firewire stack (based on a discussion I vaguely recall on the
> linux1394 mailing list). Quite a bit of work has gone into libraw1394,
> libiec61883 and the firewire drivers in the past month.
Maybe it will work. Maybe not. But right now and for the past 3 releases
it has not worked. Sure, eventually it will work. And it will be
fantastic. But there will be nobody left to use them in the Fedora world
except for new users (till _they_ get burned by who knows what new
interesting future idea of progress...).
How many _years_ would _you_ wait for a solution if a distro willingly
bricked a device you needed?
Sorry, I appreciate the work you put into this, just don't tell me how
good is something that is actually useless for me.
Point taken, and I do hear you. MythTV with FireWire cable boxes didn't
work at all w/the new stack until I finally had some free time to really
dig into *why* it didn't work and author the necessary fixes myself.
Since I wasn't actually depending on my cable box to record stuff, and
users who *were* depending on their cable boxes could still get the old
drivers, the problem languished for way longer than it should have. The
bulk of attention given to the new stack was on the storage side, mostly
because that's the primary use case for RHEL. So that side has been
rock-solid and performs outstandingly, but the less common use cases
have indeed suffered mightily, and unfortunately, most of the folks with
the expertise to get the loose ends tied up have been tied up with
other things... :(
So yeah. We (Fedora) botched this transition pretty badly. I'm hopeful
that we'll finally have everything that worked in the old stack working
with the new stack by F11 (in addition to all the things it does better).
[*] Look, I'm still around because I do not currently _depend_
firewire devices for my machines (look up CCRMA, around 50 linux high
performance fanless audio workstations running Fedora plus the
associated servers, etc, etc). If I did, I probably would have migrated
away a long time ago. And to tell the truth I will stay around only
while the pain associated with staying is lower than the pain associated
with a migration, and lately the pain gap seems to be getting smaller
(and also because I know that the grass is not always greener somewhere
else... but you know, sometimes it actually is).
Here's hoping we can continue minimizing the pain gap!