Hello:
The Docs SIG is working on a guide for some of Fedora's music and audio software, to be released with Fedora 14. The Musicians' Guide is being written primarily by me, as part of the Fedora Summer Coding program. Some of the first drafts are complete, with others being added regularly.
I would greatly appreciate the help of all willing parties, to read the documents, establish and ensure consistency, and check for grammar. You are even invited to use the documents to learn the software, if you wish - all programs contain a tutorial where concepts are explained in the context of producing a useful sound file (although I assume that most subscribers to this list will already know).
The following web page will be updated regularly, as new material for testing is written.
https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/User:Crantila/FSC/Testing
All comments and any assistance are appreciated. In particular, if you would prefer alternate programs for certain tasks, you can submit requests with reasons - I know there has been some preference shown for Denemo and MuseScore over Frescobaldi, for instance, and there are tons of helpful little programs for synthesis and DSP. Changes and additions will not make it into the Fedora 14 Guide.
Regards, Christopher.
I wouldn't mind trying this guide out on my brother. He wants to record but is confused by how to get started.
I think it would be helpful if he had a 'click here, then here' sort of guide and some example workflows.
Ie, how to start recording in Ardour.
Install ardour and Qjackctl.
Open Qjackctl. etc.
Open Ardour. Add a track. Press Shift E. Click on 'Input' etc..Check what program is monitoring. Arm the track, go.
Adding a drum track. Install Hydrogen. Open Hydrogen. Add a stereo track/Switch to JACK mode/etc..
Obviously a guide like this would end up being quite detailed, and would probably require some sort of javascript 'pop up' to a glossary for terms a novice might not understand.
It'd be difficult - but I think it would be helpful. As it stands I wouldn't be confident just sending him a link to the docs because there is no simple entry point to get started recording music.
My 2c
Cheers Nicholas
On Fri, Jul 9, 2010 at 5:33 PM, Christopher Antila crantila@gmail.comwrote:
Hello:
The Docs SIG is working on a guide for some of Fedora's music and audio software, to be released with Fedora 14. The Musicians' Guide is being written primarily by me, as part of the Fedora Summer Coding program. Some of the first drafts are complete, with others being added regularly.
I would greatly appreciate the help of all willing parties, to read the documents, establish and ensure consistency, and check for grammar. You are even invited to use the documents to learn the software, if you wish
- all programs contain a tutorial where concepts are explained in the
context of producing a useful sound file (although I assume that most subscribers to this list will already know).
The following web page will be updated regularly, as new material for testing is written.
https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/User:Crantila/FSC/Testing
All comments and any assistance are appreciated. In particular, if you would prefer alternate programs for certain tasks, you can submit requests with reasons - I know there has been some preference shown for Denemo and MuseScore over Frescobaldi, for instance, and there are tons of helpful little programs for synthesis and DSP. Changes and additions will not make it into the Fedora 14 Guide.
Regards, Christopher. _______________________________________________ music mailing list music@lists.fedoraproject.org https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/music
I'd send all beginners to check out qtractor's documentation, despite being for an older verison of qtractor: http://downloads.sourceforge.net/qtractor/qtractor-0.3.0-user-manual.pdf
Using Qtractor means several less pieces of software need to be used, as qtractor can do the job of qjackctl: it controls jackd, and sets connections to various audio/midi devices on a per-project basis (essentially, the qjackctl "patchbay" is saved with each project)...
Making music with qtractor means you can go from "zero" to "making music" just by invoking the application: if you've saved and configured your project correctly, simply load up the .qtr file, hit play, and hear music. All your keyboards, sound devices, audio ports, LV2 or DSSI plugins, etc will all be hooked up in the exact way you had them setup last time you saved the project.
This is exactly the kind of "ready-to-hand" tool that a student needs so they don't need to waste time with tedious configuration and setup each time they want to work on music.
In the recent past, I've made qtractor packages available for Fedora: I'd recommend not using the binary below except to just get a feel for the app. Use the subversion trunk bleeding-edge version -- it just means more bugs are fixed -- http://qtractor.sourceforge.net/qtractor-downloads.html#SVN and compile/install http://qtractor.sourceforge.net/qtractor-index.html#Installation . To see Rui's progress: http://qtractor.svn.sourceforge.net/viewvc/qtractor/trunk/?view=log
Here's my older "stable" release and modified SPEC file for fedora: http://nielsmayer.com/qtractor-0.4.6-4.npm.fc12.spec http://nielsmayer.com/qtractor-0.4.6-4.npm.fc12.src.rpm http://nielsmayer.com/qtractor-0.4.6-4.npm.fc12.x86_64.rpm http://nielsmayer.com/qtractor-debuginfo-0.4.6-4.npm.fc12.x86_64.rpm
-- Niels http://nielsmayer.com
PS: I also think Denemo ( http://denemo.org/index.php/Get_Denemo ) is also a powerful "all in one" system that is worth documenting as the gnome/guile alternative to frescobaldi. Denemo will respond/read keyboard-entered MIDI, and it lets you hear the notes as you move them around, and play the score. Again, exactly the kind of "instant gratification" that a student needs to stay on-task. Denemo seems particularly oriented towards student education: it has interesting "aural training" and other "note reading" exercises as menu-items, using its built-in hypermedia capabilities to guide students, score their answers to questions, etc.
Thanks for your response and comments. One of the biggest issues that I've had to face is the extensive documentation, explanation, and instructions required to do even simple audio tasks - as you noted.
Also, because I wanted to include a wide variety of software, no particular topic is covered beyond what I might consider a "basic understanding." With that in mind, a particular focus has been to get the user operating with the minimum knowledge they need to both complete simple tasks, and to find ways to complete complex tasks. It's difficult to say how successful this has been.
As the author of the Guide, I would greatly appreciate the input that could be provided by an absolute beginner (with audio software) who is nonetheless determined to learn - this is one of the primary target audiences! In particular, once the Ardour portion has been completed, it would be useful to know how to further include people who have never done audio recording work.
As for whether your brother is the person for this task, I will leave to you to decide :)
Thanks again, Christopher.
On 07/09/2010 03:45 AM, Nicholas Manojlovic wrote:
I wouldn't mind trying this guide out on my brother. He wants to record but is confused by how to get started.
I think it would be helpful if he had a 'click here, then here' sort of guide and some example workflows.
Ie, how to start recording in Ardour.
Install ardour and Qjackctl.
Open Qjackctl. etc.
Open Ardour. Add a track. Press Shift E. Click on 'Input' etc..Check what program is monitoring. Arm the track, go.
Adding a drum track. Install Hydrogen. Open Hydrogen. Add a stereo track/Switch to JACK mode/etc..
Obviously a guide like this would end up being quite detailed, and would probably require some sort of javascript 'pop up' to a glossary for terms a novice might not understand.
It'd be difficult - but I think it would be helpful. As it stands I wouldn't be confident just sending him a link to the docs because there is no simple entry point to get started recording music.
My 2c
Cheers Nicholas
On Fri, Jul 9, 2010 at 5:33 PM, Christopher Antila crantila@gmail.comwrote:
Hello:
The Docs SIG is working on a guide for some of Fedora's music and audio software, to be released with Fedora 14. The Musicians' Guide is being written primarily by me, as part of the Fedora Summer Coding program. Some of the first drafts are complete, with others being added regularly.
I would greatly appreciate the help of all willing parties, to read the documents, establish and ensure consistency, and check for grammar. You are even invited to use the documents to learn the software, if you wish
- all programs contain a tutorial where concepts are explained in the
context of producing a useful sound file (although I assume that most subscribers to this list will already know).
The following web page will be updated regularly, as new material for testing is written.
https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/User:Crantila/FSC/Testing
All comments and any assistance are appreciated. In particular, if you would prefer alternate programs for certain tasks, you can submit requests with reasons - I know there has been some preference shown for Denemo and MuseScore over Frescobaldi, for instance, and there are tons of helpful little programs for synthesis and DSP. Changes and additions will not make it into the Fedora 14 Guide.
Regards, Christopher. _______________________________________________ music mailing list music@lists.fedoraproject.org https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/music
Christopher,
I wouldn't classify myself as an "absolute beginner" but I just did:
yum install qtractor
which installed:
qtractor x86_64 0.4.6-1.fc14 rubberband x86_64 1.5.0-1.fc12
I then typed:
qtractor
and got:
qtractor: symbol lookup error: qtractor: undefined symbol: _ZN9QListData11detach_growEPii
- I've got no idea where to go from here . .
Thanks,
Phil.
On 2010-07-10 06:03, Christopher Antila wrote:
Thanks for your response and comments. One of the biggest issues that I've had to face is the extensive documentation, explanation, and instructions required to do even simple audio tasks - as you noted.
Also, because I wanted to include a wide variety of software, no particular topic is covered beyond what I might consider a "basic understanding." With that in mind, a particular focus has been to get the user operating with the minimum knowledge they need to both complete simple tasks, and to find ways to complete complex tasks. It's difficult to say how successful this has been.
As the author of the Guide, I would greatly appreciate the input that could be provided by an absolute beginner (with audio software) who is nonetheless determined to learn - this is one of the primary target audiences! In particular, once the Ardour portion has been completed, it would be useful to know how to further include people who have never done audio recording work.
As for whether your brother is the person for this task, I will leave to you to decide :)
Thanks again, Christopher.
On 07/09/2010 03:45 AM, Nicholas Manojlovic wrote:
I wouldn't mind trying this guide out on my brother. He wants to record but is confused by how to get started.
I think it would be helpful if he had a 'click here, then here' sort of guide and some example workflows.
Ie, how to start recording in Ardour.
Install ardour and Qjackctl.
Open Qjackctl. etc.
Open Ardour. Add a track. Press Shift E. Click on 'Input' etc..Check what program is monitoring. Arm the track, go.
Adding a drum track. Install Hydrogen. Open Hydrogen. Add a stereo track/Switch to JACK mode/etc..
Obviously a guide like this would end up being quite detailed, and would probably require some sort of javascript 'pop up' to a glossary for terms a novice might not understand.
It'd be difficult - but I think it would be helpful. As it stands I wouldn't be confident just sending him a link to the docs because there is no simple entry point to get started recording music.
My 2c
Cheers Nicholas
On Fri, Jul 9, 2010 at 5:33 PM, Christopher Antilacrantila@gmail.comwrote:
Hello:
The Docs SIG is working on a guide for some of Fedora's music and audio software, to be released with Fedora 14. The Musicians' Guide is being written primarily by me, as part of the Fedora Summer Coding program. Some of the first drafts are complete, with others being added regularly.
I would greatly appreciate the help of all willing parties, to read the documents, establish and ensure consistency, and check for grammar. You are even invited to use the documents to learn the software, if you wish
- all programs contain a tutorial where concepts are explained in the
context of producing a useful sound file (although I assume that most subscribers to this list will already know).
The following web page will be updated regularly, as new material for testing is written.
https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/User:Crantila/FSC/Testing
All comments and any assistance are appreciated. In particular, if you would prefer alternate programs for certain tasks, you can submit requests with reasons - I know there has been some preference shown for Denemo and MuseScore over Frescobaldi, for instance, and there are tons of helpful little programs for synthesis and DSP. Changes and additions will not make it into the Fedora 14 Guide.
Regards, Christopher. _______________________________________________ music mailing list music@lists.fedoraproject.org https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/music
music mailing list music@lists.fedoraproject.org https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/music
Hi Phil:
I don't know what to do either, being no expert programmer. Hopefully the package maintainer is reading this list, and can fix the package.
It looks like you're using a qtractor package from the Fedora rawhide repository, though, and you're running Fedora 12. That in itself shouldn't be a problem, but you might consider installing the RPM Fusion repository and using the qtractor package available from there. This is what I've been using in F12 to write the Guide, and I've had no problems.
So something like... 1.) yum remove qtractor 2.) Follow the instructions here: http://rpmfusion.org/Configuration 3.) yum install qtractor (I've got 0.4.6-1.fc12, which is the same version)
Of course, RPM Fusion is a non-Fedora repository, so there are added risks when you use their packages.
The Qtractor chapter doesn't yet have a completed first draft, but when it does, it will be listed on this page: https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/User:Crantila/FSC/Drafts
Good luck!
Christopher.
On 07/09/2010 04:57 PM, Philip Rhoades wrote:
Christopher,
I wouldn't classify myself as an "absolute beginner" but I just did:
yum install qtractorwhich installed:
qtractor x86_64 0.4.6-1.fc14 rubberband x86_64 1.5.0-1.fc12I then typed:
qtractorand got:
qtractor: symbol lookup error: qtractor: undefined symbol:_ZN9QListData11detach_growEPii
- I've got no idea where to go from here . .
Thanks,
Phil.
On 2010-07-10 06:03, Christopher Antila wrote:
Thanks for your response and comments. One of the biggest issues that I've had to face is the extensive documentation, explanation, and instructions required to do even simple audio tasks - as you noted.
Also, because I wanted to include a wide variety of software, no particular topic is covered beyond what I might consider a "basic understanding." With that in mind, a particular focus has been to get the user operating with the minimum knowledge they need to both complete simple tasks, and to find ways to complete complex tasks. It's difficult to say how successful this has been.
As the author of the Guide, I would greatly appreciate the input that could be provided by an absolute beginner (with audio software) who is nonetheless determined to learn - this is one of the primary target audiences! In particular, once the Ardour portion has been completed, it would be useful to know how to further include people who have never done audio recording work.
As for whether your brother is the person for this task, I will leave to you to decide :)
Thanks again, Christopher.
On 07/09/2010 03:45 AM, Nicholas Manojlovic wrote:
I wouldn't mind trying this guide out on my brother. He wants to record but is confused by how to get started.
I think it would be helpful if he had a 'click here, then here' sort of guide and some example workflows.
Ie, how to start recording in Ardour.
Install ardour and Qjackctl.
Open Qjackctl. etc.
Open Ardour. Add a track. Press Shift E. Click on 'Input' etc..Check what program is monitoring. Arm the track, go.
Adding a drum track. Install Hydrogen. Open Hydrogen. Add a stereo track/Switch to JACK mode/etc..
Obviously a guide like this would end up being quite detailed, and would probably require some sort of javascript 'pop up' to a glossary for terms a novice might not understand.
It'd be difficult - but I think it would be helpful. As it stands I wouldn't be confident just sending him a link to the docs because there is no simple entry point to get started recording music.
My 2c
Cheers Nicholas
On Fri, Jul 9, 2010 at 5:33 PM, Christopher Antilacrantila@gmail.comwrote:
Hello:
The Docs SIG is working on a guide for some of Fedora's music and audio software, to be released with Fedora 14. The Musicians' Guide is being written primarily by me, as part of the Fedora Summer Coding program. Some of the first drafts are complete, with others being added regularly.
I would greatly appreciate the help of all willing parties, to read the documents, establish and ensure consistency, and check for grammar. You are even invited to use the documents to learn the software, if you wish
- all programs contain a tutorial where concepts are explained in the
context of producing a useful sound file (although I assume that most subscribers to this list will already know).
The following web page will be updated regularly, as new material for testing is written.
https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/User:Crantila/FSC/Testing
All comments and any assistance are appreciated. In particular, if you would prefer alternate programs for certain tasks, you can submit requests with reasons - I know there has been some preference shown for Denemo and MuseScore over Frescobaldi, for instance, and there are tons of helpful little programs for synthesis and DSP. Changes and additions will not make it into the Fedora 14 Guide.
Regards, Christopher. _______________________________________________ music mailing list music@lists.fedoraproject.org https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/music
music mailing list music@lists.fedoraproject.org https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/music
Alas, the RPMFusion version of qtractor is quite buggy, perhaps nearing unusable. (see http://old.nabble.com/qtractor-on-planetccrma-older-than-rpmfusion-version--... for more info)
If you must install an rpm , or want to check it out without investing any time: http://nielsmayer.com/qtractor-0.4.6-4.npm.fc12.src.rpm http://nielsmayer.com/qtractor-0.4.6-4.npm.fc12.x86_64.rpm http://nielsmayer.com/qtractor-debuginfo-0.4.6-4.npm.fc12.x86_64.rpm
Orcan will have to give further information about rpmfusion getting an update on a fast-running-project straight out of subversion, just because an enthusiastic user said it was ok to do... and safer/better/faster/stronger than any of the RPM versions around, including mine.
That's why I advised: ........ Use the subversion trunk bleeding-edge version -- it just means more bugs are fixed -- http://qtractor.sourceforge.net/qtractor-downloads.html#SVN and compile/install http://qtractor.sourceforge.net/qtractor-index.html#Installation . To see Rui's progress: http://qtractor.svn.sourceforge.net/viewvc/qtractor/trunk/?view=log .........
Given the steady trickle of updates, I wonder whether a 0.5 release is upcoming, which would solve some of Orcan's potential issues w/ maintaining a totally random version of some random package....
Because it is no random package it's a gem lacking a little polish: an open and free version of http://www.cakewalk.com/Products/SONAR/ (or at least cakewalk pro audio: http://www.linuxjournal.com/content/software-ecology-rui-nuno-capela: "By late in this time I was just another user of some Windows applications, of which only the Cakewalk Pro Audio DAW do I still praise" ).
Niels http://nielsmayer.com
Qtractor from RPM Fusion may be quite buggy, but in no way have I had an experience to consider it nearly unusable. I've been using it for quite a while now, and it hasn't crashed once. Keep in mind, Qtractor is still "Alpha" software, according to its SourceForge website. Audacity, Ardour, and QjackCtl on the other hand, are supposedly stable, but crash on me with regularity.
This is to say, "Your mileage may vary." The open-source philosophy encourages people to choose the solution that works best for them.
One thing we can be sure of is that we could really use more contributors to monitor, respond to, and deal with Bugzilla issues.
Christopher.
On 07/09/2010 05:58 PM, Niels Mayer wrote:
Alas, the RPMFusion version of qtractor is quite buggy, perhaps nearing unusable. (see http://old.nabble.com/qtractor-on-planetccrma-older-than-rpmfusion-version--... for more info)
If you must install an rpm , or want to check it out without investing any time: http://nielsmayer.com/qtractor-0.4.6-4.npm.fc12.src.rpm http://nielsmayer.com/qtractor-0.4.6-4.npm.fc12.x86_64.rpm http://nielsmayer.com/qtractor-debuginfo-0.4.6-4.npm.fc12.x86_64.rpm
Orcan will have to give further information about rpmfusion getting an update on a fast-running-project straight out of subversion, just because an enthusiastic user said it was ok to do... and safer/better/faster/stronger than any of the RPM versions around, including mine.
That's why I advised: ........ Use the subversion trunk bleeding-edge version -- it just means more bugs are fixed -- http://qtractor.sourceforge.net/qtractor-downloads.html#SVN and compile/install http://qtractor.sourceforge.net/qtractor-index.html#Installation . To see Rui's progress: http://qtractor.svn.sourceforge.net/viewvc/qtractor/trunk/?view=log .........
Given the steady trickle of updates, I wonder whether a 0.5 release is upcoming, which would solve some of Orcan's potential issues w/ maintaining a totally random version of some random package....
Because it is no random package it's a gem lacking a little polish: an open and free version of http://www.cakewalk.com/Products/SONAR/ (or at least cakewalk pro audio: http://www.linuxjournal.com/content/software-ecology-rui-nuno-capela: "By late in this time I was just another user of some Windows applications, of which only the Cakewalk Pro Audio DAW do I still praise" ).
Niels http://nielsmayer.com
On Fri, Jul 9, 2010 at 4:41 PM, Christopher Antila crantila@gmail.com wrote:
Qtractor from RPM Fusion may be quite buggy, but in no way have I had an experience to consider it nearly unusable. I've been using it for quite a while now, and it hasn't crashed once. Keep in mind, Qtractor is still "Alpha" software, according to its SourceForge website.
FYI -- the reason why I mentioned Qtractor is because I saw it absent in the guide URL you posted. I'm glad to see you're using it and hope your guide will include information on this premier Linux DAW. The other reason I mentioned it: Nicholas' reply suggested some very capable and complex tools that would all have to be explained, configured, interconnected, etc. This would be very discouraging to a student faced with the complexity explosion caused by combining Ardour, Qjackctl, and Hydrogen: That's why I suggested a more-integrated tool like Qtractor is appropriate to the student and beginners. Tools like Ardour would be more appropriate for the "pro" doing mastering.
Regarding my statements about instability in RPMfusion versions of Qtractor. Note that I'm one of Qtractor's biggest fans -- which is why I always want the latest and best version. Some of the bugs depend on what you're doing with it. I basically abuse the software and do things that it wasn't expecting to be used for, and then i can crash it (although I'm usually impressed with the fact that it doesn't crash despite the abuse I throw at it). There's been enough fixes in subversion that I'm getting more stability just from having the svn directory around, and doing "svn up" once a week, then "make" and "make install" ...
Here's one example of the kinds of bugs I'm talking about -- you won't see it unless you're using a multichannel audio interface and performing certain operations on audio buses ... http://sourceforge.net/tracker/?func=detail&atid=733076&aid=3021645&... I've hit this bug too -- just fixed: http://qtractor.svn.sourceforge.net/viewvc/qtractor?view=revision&revisi...
Niels http://nielsmayer.com
PS: Regarding Mastering and Level setting ( https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/User:Crantila/FSC/Recording/DAW_Common_Elemen... ). Consider using http://www.64studio.com/book/export/html/1236 as a starting point ( from http://www.64studio.com/manual/audio ).
Consider suggesting Bob Katz' "K System" http://www.digido.com/level-practices-part-2-includes-the-k-system.html which is implemented in Fons Adriaensen's jkmeter ( http://www.kokkinizita.net/linuxaudio/downloads/jkmeter-0.4.0.tar.bz2 ) and available PlanetCCRMA's repositories.
See also: http://old.nabble.com/First-release-of-jkmeter-td18798950.html http://old.nabble.com/digital-volume-sounds-better-at-0-dB--ts28928647.html
Perhaps I should have made it more clear that the link I posted in the latest email is only to portions of the Guide that have a completed first-draft. A list of topics is available elsewhere.
This link contains links to all written material that exists so far: __ https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/User:Crantila/FSC __ -Project Schedule -List of Topics (i.e. Table of Contents) -Fully-Completed Drafts -Testing Information ("What Needs Testing Now") -Software to Consider for Subsequent Editions
Everybody: Please feel free to directly edit all documents but the schedule - especially "Software to Consider for Subsequent Editions." I'll be sure to incorporate your changes.
Niels: Thank you for the links about mastering and especially the "K System" of metering and level practices. I have no formal training with regards to audio recording, so although I've experienced the issues discussed in Katz' article, I didn't realize the extent of the situation, or its causes. Nor, in fact, had I even considered recommending that people use an external level meter, because it adds a new level of complexity, as you recognize.
And finally, regarding the added level of complexity, I'm glad that you've been recommending Qtractor so strongly, because it's made me change my mind about the specific layout of the Guide, and how it's going to deal with three DAWs. Qtractor really is easier than Ardour, and it does a good job of working with both audio and MIDI, so that's how it fits in.
Now to find a place for Rosegarden.
Christopher.
On 07/10/2010 01:37 PM, Niels Mayer wrote:
On Fri, Jul 9, 2010 at 4:41 PM, Christopher Antila crantila@gmail.com wrote:
Qtractor from RPM Fusion may be quite buggy, but in no way have I had an experience to consider it nearly unusable. I've been using it for quite a while now, and it hasn't crashed once. Keep in mind, Qtractor is still "Alpha" software, according to its SourceForge website.
FYI -- the reason why I mentioned Qtractor is because I saw it absent in the guide URL you posted. I'm glad to see you're using it and hope your guide will include information on this premier Linux DAW. The other reason I mentioned it: Nicholas' reply suggested some very capable and complex tools that would all have to be explained, configured, interconnected, etc. This would be very discouraging to a student faced with the complexity explosion caused by combining Ardour, Qjackctl, and Hydrogen: That's why I suggested a more-integrated tool like Qtractor is appropriate to the student and beginners. Tools like Ardour would be more appropriate for the "pro" doing mastering.
Regarding my statements about instability in RPMfusion versions of Qtractor. Note that I'm one of Qtractor's biggest fans -- which is why I always want the latest and best version. Some of the bugs depend on what you're doing with it. I basically abuse the software and do things that it wasn't expecting to be used for, and then i can crash it (although I'm usually impressed with the fact that it doesn't crash despite the abuse I throw at it). There's been enough fixes in subversion that I'm getting more stability just from having the svn directory around, and doing "svn up" once a week, then "make" and "make install" ...
Here's one example of the kinds of bugs I'm talking about -- you won't see it unless you're using a multichannel audio interface and performing certain operations on audio buses ... http://sourceforge.net/tracker/?func=detail&atid=733076&aid=3021645&... I've hit this bug too -- just fixed: http://qtractor.svn.sourceforge.net/viewvc/qtractor?view=revision&revisi...
Niels http://nielsmayer.com
PS: Regarding Mastering and Level setting ( https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/User:Crantila/FSC/Recording/DAW_Common_Elemen... ). Consider using http://www.64studio.com/book/export/html/1236 as a starting point ( from http://www.64studio.com/manual/audio ).
Consider suggesting Bob Katz' "K System" http://www.digido.com/level-practices-part-2-includes-the-k-system.html which is implemented in Fons Adriaensen's jkmeter ( http://www.kokkinizita.net/linuxaudio/downloads/jkmeter-0.4.0.tar.bz2 ) and available PlanetCCRMA's repositories.
See also: http://old.nabble.com/First-release-of-jkmeter-td18798950.html http://old.nabble.com/digital-volume-sounds-better-at-0-dB--ts28928647.html
On Sat, Jul 10, 2010 at 10:37:07AM -0700, Niels Mayer wrote:
Regarding my statements about instability in RPMfusion versions of Qtractor. Note that I'm one of Qtractor's biggest fans -- which is why I always want the latest and best version. Some of the bugs depend on what you're doing with it. I basically abuse the software and do things that it wasn't expecting to be used for, and then i can crash it (although I'm usually impressed with the fact that it doesn't crash despite the abuse I throw at it). There's been enough fixes in subversion that I'm getting more stability just from having the svn directory around, and doing "svn up" once a week, then "make" and "make install" ...
Considering that we're offering Qtractor because it removes complexity for the starting artist, I'm going to suggest that using your method to get the latest source is going to be a barrier ... if that's what the guide recommends.
Is there a reason we can't package and maintain Qtractor for Fedora? I'll go take a look at your SRPMs right now to see what you've got going on, but I'm even more of a novice packager. But I'm sure many of us want to see it packaged (I want to use Qtractor ... from a Fedora repository, preferably.)
If we can see that the packages will be in Fedora by/around Fedora 14, perhaps Cristopher will write against those packages, knowing the packages will be in the repo for the reader.
BTW, thanks for making your packages available, I'll give them a try and let you know how it goes. (I'd consider recommending that we point readers at a fedorapeople.org yum repo as a workaround because it gives us more flexibility to get them to move to the formal repo when packages are fixed there.)
- Karsten
When I wrote the Guide chapter, I didn't realize that Qtractor wasn't available from a Fedora repository. I'd installed the software earlier, and my system has had the RPM Fusion repositories installed for months before that. So, the portion about Qtractor is written from the perspective of it being available in a standard Fedora repository.
Looks like Qtractor is in rawhide, but if it won't be available from a Fedora repository, then it's going to be from RPM Fusion, which will involve only a minor change. The Guide won't contain source-compilation instructions for Qtractor.
With this in mind, and pending what happens with JACK (as per my email from five minutes ago), SuperCollider will be the only application not available from a Fedora repository, aside from the real-time kernel.
It's nice that we're worrying about these things now, when there's so much time left.
Christopher.
On 07/10/2010 07:04 PM, Karsten Wade wrote:
On Sat, Jul 10, 2010 at 10:37:07AM -0700, Niels Mayer wrote:
Regarding my statements about instability in RPMfusion versions of Qtractor. Note that I'm one of Qtractor's biggest fans -- which is why I always want the latest and best version. Some of the bugs depend on what you're doing with it. I basically abuse the software and do things that it wasn't expecting to be used for, and then i can crash it (although I'm usually impressed with the fact that it doesn't crash despite the abuse I throw at it). There's been enough fixes in subversion that I'm getting more stability just from having the svn directory around, and doing "svn up" once a week, then "make" and "make install" ...
Considering that we're offering Qtractor because it removes complexity for the starting artist, I'm going to suggest that using your method to get the latest source is going to be a barrier ... if that's what the guide recommends.
Is there a reason we can't package and maintain Qtractor for Fedora? I'll go take a look at your SRPMs right now to see what you've got going on, but I'm even more of a novice packager. But I'm sure many of us want to see it packaged (I want to use Qtractor ... from a Fedora repository, preferably.)
If we can see that the packages will be in Fedora by/around Fedora 14, perhaps Cristopher will write against those packages, knowing the packages will be in the repo for the reader.
BTW, thanks for making your packages available, I'll give them a try and let you know how it goes. (I'd consider recommending that we point readers at a fedorapeople.org yum repo as a workaround because it gives us more flexibility to get them to move to the formal repo when packages are fixed there.)
- Karsten
music mailing list music@lists.fedoraproject.org https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/music
On Sat, Jul 10, 2010 at 4:04 PM, Karsten Wade kwade@redhat.com wrote:
Considering that we're offering Qtractor because it removes complexity for the starting artist, I'm going to suggest that using your method to get the latest source is going to be a barrier ... if that's what the guide recommends.
That's just my recommendation for the time being. At some point soon enough, Rui will have an official release containing all the fixes i've been getting off subversion. And then sometime after that, it'll be packaged for fedora. I'm not worried that this will happen.
I was simply stating that if you want to use qtractor these days, development has been fast and furious, and the RPM packages have not been able to keep up with the pace of development.
The guide should point to fedora repositories for these packages. It should not suggest people build their own.
Is there a reason we can't package and maintain Qtractor for Fedora? I'll go take a look at your SRPMs right now to see what you've got going on, but I'm even more of a novice packager. But I'm sure many of us want to see it packaged (I want to use Qtractor ... from a Fedora repository, preferably.)
There's nothing special going on. However, the usual problem is happening. Qtractor can be built with MP3 support, -- but FC's blacklist necessitates a "crippled" version of qtractor that can't read from MP3 files (in case you have existing MP3 source material you want to mix or remix).
In order to streamline maintenance and reduce duplication of effort, this issue needs to be solved for all apps, once and for all, in a generic fashion, and that solution should be standardized and shared among all apps that are plagued by this problem, e.g.: (1) sonic-visualiser.x86_64 1.7.2-1.fc12 vs. sonic-visualiser-freeworld.x86_64 1.7.1-1.fc12 (from rpmfusion-free-updates). (2) xmms.x86_64 1:1.2.11-9.20071117cvs.fc12 vs xmms2-freeworld.x86_640.6-1.fc12 (rpmfusion-free) (3) audacity.x86_64 1.3.11-0.1.beta.fc12 vs audacity-freeworld.x86_64 1.3.7-0.6.1.beta.fc11 (rpmfusion-free) ...and any other app that expects MP3 support beyond xine or gstreamer plugins from rpmfusion. Specifically a dynamically loadable liblame:
http://old.nabble.com/fedora-packaging----packages-that-can-dyn-load-blackli... suggests a starting point.
If we can see that the packages will be in Fedora by/around Fedora 14, perhaps Cristopher will write against those packages, knowing the packages will be in the repo for the reader.
Certainly by F14, qtractor will probably be out of "alpha" and may even be in "final" release... So it makes sense to write as if this were going to be the case.
-- Niels http://nielsmayer.com
On Sat, 2010-07-10 at 16:45 -0700, Niels Mayer wrote:
On Sat, Jul 10, 2010 at 4:04 PM, Karsten Wade kwade@redhat.com wrote:
Considering that we're offering Qtractor because it removes complexity for the starting artist, I'm going to suggest that using your method to get the latest source is going to be a barrier ... if that's what the guide recommends.
That's just my recommendation for the time being. At some point soon enough, Rui will have an official release containing all the fixes i've been getting off subversion. And then sometime after that, it'll be packaged for fedora. I'm not worried that this will happen.
I would like to point out that Qtractor is oriented to stereo output. A while back I tried to use for something simple, and that stopped me - I don't think I could get it to change the number of channels in the master output.
Ardour is more complex but you get a return from the investment of learning it (as usual).
Qtractor used to be in Planet CCRMA, I stopped offering it when it appeared in rpmfusion.
-- Fernando
I was simply stating that if you want to use qtractor these days, development has been fast and furious, and the RPM packages have not been able to keep up with the pace of development.
The guide should point to fedora repositories for these packages. It should not suggest people build their own.
Is there a reason we can't package and maintain Qtractor for Fedora? I'll go take a look at your SRPMs right now to see what you've got going on, but I'm even more of a novice packager. But I'm sure many of us want to see it packaged (I want to use Qtractor ... from a Fedora repository, preferably.)
There's nothing special going on. However, the usual problem is happening. Qtractor can be built with MP3 support, -- but FC's blacklist necessitates a "crippled" version of qtractor that can't read from MP3 files (in case you have existing MP3 source material you want to mix or remix).
In order to streamline maintenance and reduce duplication of effort, this issue needs to be solved for all apps, once and for all, in a generic fashion, and that solution should be standardized and shared among all apps that are plagued by this problem, e.g.: (1) sonic-visualiser.x86_64 1.7.2-1.fc12 vs. sonic-visualiser-freeworld.x86_64 1.7.1-1.fc12 (from rpmfusion-free-updates). (2) xmms.x86_64 1:1.2.11-9.20071117cvs.fc12 vs xmms2-freeworld.x86_640.6-1.fc12 (rpmfusion-free) (3) audacity.x86_64 1.3.11-0.1.beta.fc12 vs audacity-freeworld.x86_64 1.3.7-0.6.1.beta.fc11 (rpmfusion-free) ...and any other app that expects MP3 support beyond xine or gstreamer plugins from rpmfusion. Specifically a dynamically loadable liblame:
http://old.nabble.com/fedora-packaging----packages-that-can-dyn-load-blackli... suggests a starting point.
If we can see that the packages will be in Fedora by/around Fedora 14, perhaps Cristopher will write against those packages, knowing the packages will be in the repo for the reader.
Certainly by F14, qtractor will probably be out of "alpha" and may even be in "final" release... So it makes sense to write as if this were going to be the case.
-- Niels http://nielsmayer.com
On Sat, Jul 10, 2010 at 11:58 PM, Fernando Lopez-Lezcano nando@ccrma.stanford.edu wrote:
I would like to point out that Qtractor is oriented to stereo output.
The 'View->Buses..." menu allows configuration of multiple channels of audio beyond two. I just configured a 12 channel track, for example. There is a bug related to this issue, and it may indicate that it has been tested more with stereo output and non-multichannel cards. The gui itself permits configuration of up to 99 channels.
A while back I tried to use for something simple, and that stopped me - I don't think I could get it to change the number of channels in the master output.
You can get it to change the number of channels, but it may crash jackd in the process. Requiring a qtractor restart after you save the file/template with the multichannel audio bus. This is a known bug: http://sourceforge.net/tracker/?func=detail&atid=733076&aid=3021645&... that is still present in subversion.
After jackd crashed, I was able to save the qtractor template with a 12-channel audio template and it correctly setup that 12 channel template next time I restarted qjackctl and restarted qtractor. Qjackctl indicated 12 audio inputs (Master/in_*) and outputs (Master/out_*) available in qtractor, in addition to the 2 channels of monitor (Player/out_*). The mixer shows 12-channel metering, etc. Clearly there is support for multichannel audio.
The bug only seems to be invoked on bus creation with multichannel sound cards. And not stereo cards.
Ardour is more complex but you get a return from the investment of learning it (as usual).
I don't think it's fair to compare a bug in an "alpha" (<0.5) opensource software package with a many-years-old project nearing 3.0... But yes, ardour is very comprehensive -- and totally confusing and overwhelming to the novice.
Qtractor used to be in Planet CCRMA, I stopped offering it when it appeared in rpmfusion.
Makes sense. No point in duplicating effort.
-- Niels http://nielsmayer.com
On Sun, 2010-07-11 at 01:44 -0700, Niels Mayer wrote:
On Sat, Jul 10, 2010 at 11:58 PM, Fernando Lopez-Lezcano nando@ccrma.stanford.edu wrote:
I would like to point out that Qtractor is oriented to stereo output.
The 'View->Buses..." menu allows configuration of multiple channels of audio beyond two. I just configured a 12 channel track, for example. There is a bug related to this issue, and it may indicate that it has been tested more with stereo output and non-multichannel cards. The gui itself permits configuration of up to 99 channels.
A while back I tried to use for something simple, and that stopped me - I don't think I could get it to change the number of channels in the master output.
You can get it to change the number of channels, but it may crash jackd in the process. Requiring a qtractor restart after you save the file/template with the multichannel audio bus. This is a known bug: http://sourceforge.net/tracker/?func=detail&atid=733076&aid=3021645&... that is still present in subversion.
After jackd crashed, I was able to save the qtractor template with a 12-channel audio template and it correctly setup that 12 channel template next time I restarted qjackctl and restarted qtractor. Qjackctl indicated 12 audio inputs (Master/in_*) and outputs (Master/out_*) available in qtractor, in addition to the 2 channels of monitor (Player/out_*). The mixer shows 12-channel metering, etc. Clearly there is support for multichannel audio.
The bug only seems to be invoked on bus creation with multichannel sound cards. And not stereo cards.
Ardour is more complex but you get a return from the investment of learning it (as usual).
I don't think it's fair to compare a bug in an "alpha" (<0.5) opensource software package with a many-years-old project nearing 3.0... But yes, ardour is very comprehensive -- and totally confusing and overwhelming to the novice.
I'm not comparing a bug to a non-bug. When I tested qtractor a while back I could _not_ do that (as far as I can remember). BTW, if qtractor (insert smilie here) is sooo alpha - and I don't think it is - then I would not recommend it for novices for that very same reason :-)
Which one to use depends on you long term goals and your needs.
-- Fernando
On Sun, Jul 11, 2010 at 9:32 AM, Fernando Lopez-Lezcano nando@ccrma.stanford.edu wrote:
I'm not comparing a bug to a non-bug. When I tested qtractor a while back I could _not_ do that (as far as I can remember). BTW, if qtractor (insert smilie here) is sooo alpha - and I don't think it is - then I would not recommend it for novices for that very same reason :-)
FYI, Hopefully Rui won't mind my forwarding part of his reply in response to my forwarding of my message responding to Fernando: ............ ............ ............ ............ yep. that's correct, you can have 1-99 channels on any qtractor bus. however, Fernando has partly good reason, qtractor is more oriented to stereo setups.
having more that 1-2 channels in any one bus or track will certainly work and it may give you some interesting results when dealing with disparate audio files in terms of number of channels.
eg. rendering a stereo audio file on a 12-channel track/bus will make it through as 6 stereo pairs at the output, original left channel on the odd numbered output channels and the original right on the even ones. ............ ............ ............ ............
This actually suggests a good trick for my base-setup. I could setup a 4channel bus and when I want to have parallel monitoring on headphones and mains (which is how i have my delta-66 4 outputs setup) I could use this second bus for such purposes: it would automatically duplicate stereo tracks it is playing back across all channels. Or send the outputs to a "quadraphonic" system utilizing all four outputs. You could probably setup 6-channels and have it duplicate the mains to the spdif output as well...
As to the rest of Rui's reply, that's a separate thread/message.
I wonder if there's a way to run Qtractor without Jackd, using only ALSA audio devices? This would be for performance reasons, on an underpowered "music computer" running a realtime kernel and fitted with a soundcard containing a digital mixer (none of which exists yet, but will, when i upgrade a server currently using the mobo/cpu) http://old.nabble.com/performance-tradeoffs-of-using-ALSA-dshare-plugin-for-...
-- Niels. http://nielsmayer.com
On Sun, 2010-07-11 at 12:48 -0700, Niels Mayer wrote:
On Sun, Jul 11, 2010 at 9:32 AM, Fernando Lopez-Lezcano nando@ccrma.stanford.edu wrote:
I'm not comparing a bug to a non-bug. When I tested qtractor a while back I could _not_ do that (as far as I can remember). BTW, if qtractor (insert smilie here) is sooo alpha - and I don't think it is - then I would not recommend it for novices for that very same reason :-)
FYI, Hopefully Rui won't mind my forwarding part of his reply in response to my forwarding of my message responding to Fernando: ............ ............ ............ ............ yep. that's correct, you can have 1-99 channels on any qtractor bus. however, Fernando has partly good reason, qtractor is more oriented to stereo setups.
having more that 1-2 channels in any one bus or track will certainly work and it may give you some interesting results when dealing with disparate audio files in terms of number of channels.
eg. rendering a stereo audio file on a 12-channel track/bus will make it through as 6 stereo pairs at the output, original left channel on the odd numbered output channels and the original right on the even ones.
Ah, yes! That was part of what was happening (_now_ I remember). For me multichannel support should include the ability of assigning a mono track (for example) to any combination of outputs in a multichannel bus or track.
This actually suggests a good trick for my base-setup. I could setup a 4channel bus and when I want to have parallel monitoring on headphones and mains (which is how i have my delta-66 4 outputs setup) I could use this second bus for such purposes: it would automatically duplicate stereo tracks it is playing back across all channels. Or send the outputs to a "quadraphonic" system utilizing all four outputs. You could probably setup 6-channels and have it duplicate the mains to the spdif output as well...
As to the rest of Rui's reply, that's a separate thread/message.
I wonder if there's a way to run Qtractor without Jackd, using only ALSA audio devices? This would be for performance reasons, on an underpowered "music computer" running a realtime kernel and fitted with a soundcard containing a digital mixer (none of which exists yet, but will, when i upgrade a server currently using the mobo/cpu) http://old.nabble.com/performance-tradeoffs-of-using-ALSA-dshare-plugin-for-...
Why "for performance reasons"? What performance problems have you seen? Having jack manage the sound card should not affect performance, actually probably the reverse will happen if you use ALSA directly, unless the programmer of the application in question has a very good knowledge of ALSA. That is part of the beauty of jack, you don't need to know anything about the gory details of the ALSA api.
-- Fernando
On Friday, July 09, 2010 07:41:18 pm Christopher Antila wrote:
Keep in mind, Qtractor is still "Alpha" software, according to its SourceForge website. Audacity, Ardour, and QjackCtl on the other hand, are supposedly stable, but crash on me with regularity.
I've had excellent results with Ardour in the past; haven't done much with it on Fedora since I got Mixbus (on OS X). I keep wanting to check it back out, making sure of course to rebuild from the source RPM with different configure options (especially turning off the crash-prone SYSLIBS option). But been having too much fun with Harrison's DSP in Mixbus to go back to plain Ardour now....waiting with bated breath for Mixbus on Linux....
More complex to set up, but insanely flexible, Ardour is and has been my Linux tool of choice for multitracking for going on six years.
But I'm certainly willing to take a look at Qtractor at some point; but Ardour has done for me what I needed to do. And what I needed to do didn't involve MIDI, so YMMV. Qtractor's surface capabilities certainly look good, especially when using my Tascam US-428.
I've used Audacity a number of times, and still do for simple two-track recording for later processing in Mixbus. Audacity is pretty lightweight, and fairly easy to use for straight destructive editing.
On Fri, Jul 09, 2010 at 07:41:18PM -0400, Christopher Antila wrote:
This is to say, "Your mileage may vary." The open-source philosophy encourages people to choose the solution that works best for them.
We do have a slight patch to that philosophy for Fedora, which is to use what is in Fedora primarily. Ideally, if there are problems with the tool that is packaged in Fedora, we work to get that fixed. Sometimes, tech documentation is writing a way around a bug or problematic user interface. Ideally, we see the software fixed, then we can amend or remove the documentation that worked around it. If something is entirely not in Fedora, that seems like a good time to look beyond, such as RPM Fusion. (We should, at the least, put out the word that packaging is needed, someone might pick it up.) But we should still be interested in getting the software packaged in a formal repository.
In all of that, we have to be careful that we aren't making recommendations that can create trouble, as outlined on http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Forbidden_items .
As I'm reviewing the Fedora Musicians' Guide (I happen to be in or part of the target audience), I'll look for those situations where we have trouble recommending a Fedora package, and then talk with you about how to resolve each individually. (Presuming I find them, your mentors may have already addressed this.)
(I know we all may hold varied opinions on the best practices here, but the Fedora Project's practice is guided by US law. Our practice here can't be very flexible as it is constrained until that law changes. I don't mean to be raising a debate about software patents and the DMCA. I am not a lawyer, this is not legal advice.)
- Karsten
On Fri, Jul 9, 2010 at 4:57 PM, Philip Rhoades wrote:
Christopher,
I wouldn't classify myself as an "absolute beginner" but I just did:
yum install qtractor
which installed:
qtractor x86_64 0.4.6-1.fc14 rubberband x86_64 1.5.0-1.fc12
I then typed:
qtractor
and got:
qtractor: symbol lookup error: qtractor: undefined symbol: _ZN9QListData11detach_growEPii
I see that you are using rawhide (Fedora 14 pre-alpha). I need to remind you that this is not recommended for production machines, and you should expect such breakages when you are using rawhide.
With that in mind, could you post me your output of ldd -r /usr/bin/qtractor (Probably, the package just needs a rebuild due to a soname bump of a library, but just to make sure)
Thanks, Orcan
On Sat, 10 Jul 2010 01:39:33 -0400, Orcan wrote:
yum install qtractor
which installed:
qtractor x86_64 0.4.6-1.fc14 rubberband x86_64 1.5.0-1.fc12
qtractor: symbol lookup error: qtractor: undefined symbol: _ZN9QListData11detach_growEPii
I see that you are using rawhide (Fedora 14 pre-alpha).
Rawhide includes rubberband-1.5.0-2.fc14 though, so could this be F12 with an incorrectly added development repo from rpmfusion.org?
On Sat, 10 Jul 2010 06:57:21 +1000, Philip wrote:
qtractor x86_64 0.4.6-1.fc14 rubberband x86_64 1.5.0-1.fc12
qtractor: symbol lookup error: qtractor: undefined symbol: _ZN9QListData11detach_growEPii
- I've got no idea where to go from here . .
That should be a symbol from Qt (package "qt"), so checking whether qtractor needs a rebuild for changes in Qt would be a first step.
You could submit a bug report. Since it is a package not included in Fedora but in RPM Fusion, http://bugzilla.rpmfusion.org
-
Christopher Antila -
Fernando Lopez-Lezcano -
Karsten Wade -
Lamar Owen -
Michael Schwendt -
Nicholas Manojlovic -
Niels Mayer -
Orcan Ogetbil -
Philip Rhoades