Action items for the Audio spin

[Brendan Jones]

Hi all,

there's been talk of a road map for the Audio spin and I'd just like to 
jot down some suggestions for what we might like to achieve.

  - installation media requirements. I'm proposing a smaller Live CD 
(lite) and a full blown DVD installer.
  - default Desktop for both installations. I would like something with 
a really small size/footprint for the Live CD. Perhaps we can try LXDE 
for the smaller and KDE for the DVD?
  - default set of packages for both
  - revisit multimedia-menus package and determine which packages need 
additional Categories in the desktop file
  - how best to package the Musicians guide
  - how to achieve optimal RT performance from the stock kernel (adding 
threadirqs to the kernel command, assigning jackuser/pulse-rt group 
membership)
  - default pulse/jack setup with pulse->jack bridging 'out-of-the-box'
  - determine what packages from CCRMA and RPMFusion are must haves in 
the Fedora repos and can be rebuilt to comply with Fedora licensing.
  - desktop style and icons on install- darker themes are an obvious 
choice for audio (often poor lighting etc) but can be a pain for normal 
use. There are ways around this (Arch linux has some good tips for 
achieving this - perhaps we just need to document it somewhere)
  - and of course updating the Wikis

Most of this stuff is pretty trivial (but possibly time consuming). 
Achieving the perfect setup out of the box w.r.t. RT performance, jack 
and pulseaudio is going to require a lot more thought and possible 
*real* development. As I've said before KXStudio has tried to solve this 
problem with its cadence app (still pre-alpha). It makes a few 
assumptions about applications (presence of ladish for example) which 
may not necessarily apply here, but we can certainly learn a lot from 
their work.

I'm thinking that some of this could be assigned to the successful GSoC 
candidate.

As I said I'm really just listing these as suggestions - and to try and 
promote some more discussion (please!). I'd like to document this 
somewhere on the wiki as well. Please let me know if I've missed 
anything or if you have strong objections to what I've suggested.

I'd also like to round up all interested parties for an IRC meeting for 
a round table of sorts (and to determine who is actually committed to 
making this work).

regards,

Brendan

[Christopher Antila]

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Hash: SHA1

Hi:

On 04/01/2012 12:07 PM, Brendan Jones wrote:
>  Hi all,
>  
>  there's been talk of a road map for the Audio spin and I'd just
>  like to jot down some suggestions for what we might like to
>  achieve.
>  
>  - installation media requirements. I'm proposing a smaller Live CD 
>  (lite) and a full blown DVD installer. 
Good idea.

>  - default Desktop for both installations. I would like something
>  with a really small size/footprint for the Live CD. Perhaps we can
>  try LXDE for the smaller and KDE for the DVD? 
Works for me.

>  - default set of packages for both - revisit multimedia-menus
>  package and determine which packages need additional Categories in
>  the desktop file 
This could definitely use some work.

>  - how best to package the Musicians guide - how to achieve optimal
>  RT performance from the stock kernel (adding threadirqs to the
>  kernel command, assigning jackuser/pulse-rt group membership) -
>  default pulse/jack setup with pulse->jack bridging
>  'out-of-the-box' - determine what packages from CCRMA and RPMFusion
>  are must haves in the Fedora repos and can be rebuilt to comply
>  with Fedora licensing. - desktop style and icons on install- darker
>  themes are an obvious choice for audio (often poor lighting etc)
>  but can be a pain for normal use. There are ways around this (Arch
>  linux has some good tips for achieving this - perhaps we just need
>  to document it somewhere) - and of course updating the Wikis
>  
>  Most of this stuff is pretty trivial (but possibly time
>  consuming). Achieving the perfect setup out of the box w.r.t. RT
>  performance, jack and pulseaudio is going to require a lot more
>  thought and possible *real* development. As I've said before
>  KXStudio has tried to solve this problem with its cadence app
>  (still pre-alpha). It makes a few assumptions about applications
>  (presence of ladish for example) which may not necessarily apply
>  here, but we can certainly learn a lot from their work.
>  
>  I'm thinking that some of this could be assigned to the successful
>  GSoC candidate. 
The successful candidate should have seen this list and used it to
produce a "roadmap" for completion over the summer. You're right about
most of these things being both trivial and time-consuming... there's
a lot of thinking and trying to be done! I have an idea we'll never
get this done without GSoC.

So on that note... I'm still working on convincing a friend to apply
(for whom, like me, it is the end of term at university), and I've
been telling others about the project too. Do we know whether anybody
else has filed or intends to file an application?

Also, I have no objection to the "Audio Spin" name, but I think we
should narrow our target audience before GSoC. Do we want to focus on
live performance and recording (Ardour)? Do we want to focus on all
computer-based audio production (SuperCollider)? Do we want to focus
on everything musicians do (LilyPond/Frescobaldi)? It'll make a big
difference for the Live CD especially.

Maybe something else to add in, depending on who the candidate is, is
machine-learning algorithms for music/audio files for NEPOMUK.

>  As I said I'm really just listing these as suggestions - and to
> try
>  and promote some more discussion (please!). I'd like to document
>  this somewhere on the wiki as well. Please let me know if I've
>  missed anything or if you have strong objections to what I've
>  suggested.
>  
>  I'd also like to round up all interested parties for an IRC meeting
>  for a round table of sorts (and to determine who is actually
>  committed to making this work).
>  
>  regards,
>  
>  Brendan
>  
>  _______________________________________________ music mailing list 
>  music(a)lists.fedoraproject.org 
> >  https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/music
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[Brendan Jones]

On 04/03/2012 07:17 AM, Christopher R. Antila wrote:
>  -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
>  Hash: SHA1
>
>  Hi:
>  
>  The successful candidate should have seen this list and used it to
>  produce a "roadmap" for completion over the summer. You're right about
>  most of these things being both trivial and time-consuming... there's
>  a lot of thinking and trying to be done! I have an idea we'll never
>  get this done without GSoC.
>
>  So on that note... I'm still working on convincing a friend to apply
>  (for whom, like me, it is the end of term at university), and I've
>  been telling others about the project too. Do we know whether anybody
>  else has filed or intends to file an application? 
Please keep encouraging! So far I've been contacted off-list by 5 or 6 
people, but have not seen any formal applications as yet. Some have 
requested info on how to join the package maintainers, but I haven't 
seen any review requests thus far.

>  Also, I have no objection to the "Audio Spin" name, but I think we
>  should narrow our target audience before GSoC. Do we want to focus on
>  live performance and recording (Ardour)? Do we want to focus on all
>  computer-based audio production (SuperCollider)? Do we want to focus
>  on everything musicians do (LilyPond/Frescobaldi)? It'll make a big
>  difference for the Live CD especially. 
The scratch LXDE kickstart I put together was still only a little too 
large for a live CD (but not much) and it covered all of the above bar 
supercollider.

I think for the DVD we should cover everything, and the Live CD a subset 
showcasing the most popular applications (ie. one DAW instead of three 
etc).

>  Maybe something else to add in, depending on who the candidate is, is
>  machine-learning algorithms for music/audio files for NEPOMUK. 
Yeah, that's
definitely worth a look.

> > As I said I'm really just listing these as suggestions - and to try
> > and promote some more discussion (please!). I'd like to document
> > this somewhere on the wiki as well. Please let me know if I've
> > missed anything or if you have strong objections to what I've
> > suggested.
> >
> > I'd also like to round up all interested parties for an IRC meeting
> > for a round table of sorts (and to determine who is actually
> > committed to making this work).
> >
> > regards,
> >
> > Brendan
> >
> > _______________________________________________ music mailing list
> > music(a)lists.fedoraproject.org
> > https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/music
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>  _______________________________________________
>  music mailing list
>  music(a)lists.fedoraproject.org
>  https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/music

[Christopher Antila]

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Hash: SHA1

Hi:

On 04/03/2012 03:35 AM, Brendan Jones wrote:
>  
> > The scratch LXDE kickstart I put together was still only a little
> > too large for a live CD (but not much) and it covered all of the
> > above bar supercollider. 
I'm not sure Frescobaldi/LilyPond are required for
a Live CD. They
don't take up much space, but Frescobaldi (at least used to) have a
SoundFont as a dependency.

>  
> > I think for the DVD we should cover everything, and the Live CD a
> > subset showcasing the most popular applications (ie. one DAW
> > instead of three etc). 
To that end, I added the "For Music Scholars"
section to
https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Audio_creation_spin_development

Having those packages in the official Fedora repository unlocks a
potential user-base of five people at my institution, five people at
MIT, five people at Stanford, and two at University of Aberdeen.


Christopher.
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[Ian Malone]

On 4 April 2012 05:50, Christopher R. Antila <crantila(a)fedoraproject.org&gt; wrote:
>  -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
>  Hash: SHA1
>
>  Hi:
>
>  On 04/03/2012 03:35 AM, Brendan Jones wrote:
> >
> >> The scratch LXDE kickstart I put together was still only a little
> >> too large for a live CD (but not much) and it covered all of the
> >> above bar supercollider.
>  I'm not sure Frescobaldi/LilyPond are required for a Live CD. They
>  don't take up much space, but Frescobaldi (at least used to) have a
>  SoundFont as a dependency.
>
> >
> >> I think for the DVD we should cover everything, and the Live CD a
> >> subset showcasing the most popular applications (ie. one DAW
> >> instead of three etc).
>  To that end, I added the "For Music Scholars" section to
>  https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Audio_creation_spin_development
>
>  Having those packages in the official Fedora repository unlocks a
>  potential user-base of five people at my institution, five people at
>  MIT, five people at Stanford, and two at University of Aberdeen.
>  
Hi, this might seem like a silly question, but are there any plans to
have a default music player in the spin? Had a quick look through the
pages and google and can't see any mention of one. If the default
desktop is not Gnome or KDE then I guess their players wont be
included.

Separately, is Pulse going to be on by default? If it is then the jack
pulse plugins would be a useful inclusion.

-- 
imalone
http://ibmalone.blogspot.co.uk

[Christopher Antila]

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Hash: SHA1

Hi Ian:

On 04/04/2012 06:59 AM, Ian Malone wrote:
>  Hi, this might seem like a silly question, but are there any plans
>  to have a default music player in the spin? Had a quick look
>  through the pages and google and can't see any mention of one. If
>  the default desktop is not Gnome or KDE then I guess their players
>  wont be included. 
I don't think anybody's mentioned this yet, but it's
obviously a
concern. The current plan looks like LXDE or similar for the Live CD
and KDE for the DVD. They both need a music player, and because this
is an audio-dedicated spin, we should obviously consider our options
carefully.

One thing that would be nice is a music player that only plays an
audio file and nothing else. No playlist, no metadata, no
settings--just simple buttons, seek functionality and that's it.

>  Separately, is Pulse going to be on by default? If it is then the
>  jack pulse plugins would be a useful inclusion. 
I think this is the plan: yes to
PulseAudio and the JACK-->PulseAudio
plugin.


Christopher.
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[Brendan Jones]

On 04/04/2012 06:50 AM, Christopher R. Antila wrote:
>  To that end, I added the "For Music Scholars" section to
>  https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Audio_creation_spin_development
>
>  Having those packages in the official Fedora repository unlocks a
>  potential user-base of five people at my institution, five people at
>  MIT, five people at Stanford, and two at University of Aberdeen. 
I've added humdrum and music21 to the wishlist [1] a long with a number 
of other packages

Brendan

[1] https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Audio_Creation#Wishlist

[Brendan Jones]

On 04/04/2012 12:59 PM, Ian Malone wrote:
>  On 4 April 2012 05:50, Christopher R.
> Antila<crantila(a)fedoraproject.org>  wrote:
> > -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
> > Hash: SHA1
> >
> > Hi:
> >
> > On 04/03/2012 03:35 AM, Brendan Jones wrote:
> >>
> >>> The scratch LXDE kickstart I put together was still only a little
> >>> too large for a live CD (but not much) and it covered all of the
> >>> above bar supercollider.
> > I'm not sure Frescobaldi/LilyPond are required for a Live CD. They
> > don't take up much space, but Frescobaldi (at least used to) have a
> > SoundFont as a dependency.
> >
> >>
> >>> I think for the DVD we should cover everything, and the Live CD a
> >>> subset showcasing the most popular applications (ie. one DAW
> >>> instead of three etc).
> > To that end, I added the "For Music Scholars" section to
> > https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Audio_creation_spin_development
> >
> > Having those packages in the official Fedora repository unlocks a
> > potential user-base of five people at my institution, five people at
> > MIT, five people at Stanford, and two at University of Aberdeen.
> >
>
>  Hi, this might seem like a silly question, but are there any plans to
>  have a default music player in the spin? Had a quick look through the
>  pages and google and can't see any mention of one. If the default
>  desktop is not Gnome or KDE then I guess their players wont be
>  included.
>
>  Separately, is Pulse going to be on by default? If it is then the jack
>  pulse plugins would be a useful inclusion.
>  
Whilst not exactly minimal, some people might find that aqualung 
supports both jack and pulse out of the box, as well as the ability to 
use LADSPA plugins. A review for it popped up in RPMFusion a while back 
but has since been abandoned. All the free/non-free stuff can be turned 
off for mainline Fedora.

regards,

Brendan

[Brendan Jones]

On 04/09/2012 05:44 AM, Christopher R. Antila wrote:
>  -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
>  Hash: SHA1
>
>  Hi Ian:
>
>  On 04/04/2012 06:59 AM, Ian Malone wrote:
> > Hi, this might seem like a silly question, but are there any plans
> > to have a default music player in the spin? Had a quick look
> > through the pages and google and can't see any mention of one. If
> > the default desktop is not Gnome or KDE then I guess their players
> > wont be included.
>  I don't think anybody's mentioned this yet, but it's obviously a
>  concern. The current plan looks like LXDE or similar for the Live CD
>  and KDE for the DVD. They both need a music player, and because this
>  is an audio-dedicated spin, we should obviously consider our options
>  carefully.
>
>  One thing that would be nice is a music player that only plays an
>  audio file and nothing else. No playlist, no metadata, no
>  settings--just simple buttons, seek functionality and that's it. 
Agreed - native Jack support would be a plus (I think something like 
audacious fits the bill here).

Brendan

[Brian Monroe]

Yeah I +1 this idea.

On Tue, Apr 10, 2012 at 5:34 AM, Brendan Jones
<brendan.jones.it(a)gmail.com&gt;wrote:

>  On 04/09/2012 05:44 AM, Christopher R. Antila wrote:
>
> > -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
> > Hash: SHA1
> >
> > Hi Ian:
> >
> > On 04/04/2012 06:59 AM, Ian Malone wrote:
> >
> >> Hi, this might seem like a silly question, but are there any plans
> >> to have a default music player in the spin? Had a quick look
> >> through the pages and google and can't see any mention of one. If
> >> the default desktop is not Gnome or KDE then I guess their players
> >> wont be included.
> >>
> > I don't think anybody's mentioned this yet, but it's obviously a
> > concern. The current plan looks like LXDE or similar for the Live CD
> > and KDE for the DVD. They both need a music player, and because this
> > is an audio-dedicated spin, we should obviously consider our options
> > carefully.
> >
> > One thing that would be nice is a music player that only plays an
> > audio file and nothing else. No playlist, no metadata, no
> > settings--just simple buttons, seek functionality and that's it.
> >
>
>  Agreed - native Jack support would be a plus (I think something like
>  audacious fits the bill here).
>
>  Brendan
>
>  ______________________________**_________________
>  music mailing list
>  music(a)lists.fedoraproject.org
>
> https://admin.fedoraproject.**org/mailman/listinfo/music<https://admin...
>

[Mark Knoop]

> On Tue, Apr 10, 2012 at 5:34 AM, Brendan Jones
> <brendan.jones.it(a)gmail.com&gt;wrote:
> >
> > Agreed - native Jack support would be a plus (I think something like
> > audacious fits the bill here).
> >
> > Brendan 
Could I suggest alsaplayer?

http://www.alsaplayer.org/features.php

-- 
Mark Knoop

[Christopher Antila]

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
Hash: SHA1

On 04/12/2012 04:12 AM, Mark Knoop wrote:
> > On Tue, Apr 10, 2012 at 5:34 AM, Brendan Jones 
> > <brendan.jones.it(a)gmail.com&gt;wrote:
> >> 
> >> Agreed - native Jack support would be a plus (I think something
> >> like audacious fits the bill here).
> >> 
> >> Brendan
>  
>  Could I suggest alsaplayer?
>  
>  http://www.alsaplayer.org/features.php
>   
Looks good, but... I'm thinking of Mac OS X, which has a feature where
you can select a media file and press the space bar to preview it in a
pop-out window. I have this sort of functionality in mind: a clickable
"seek bar" with times, and buttons for rewind, play/pause, and
forward. Nothing beyond that.

If I'm going to get this, I'll probably have to write a new
application myself at some point, or change an existing one.
AlsaPlayer and Audacious just have too many features to use as I have
in mind.

On the other hand,
A) not everybody wants to do what I want to do, and
B) we need an audio player now, so AlsaPlayer looks like a good choice.

Is anybody else interested in making an audio file player with JACK
support that has basically no features, opens and starts playing in an
instant, and can be easily (for users) integrated into a file browser?


Christopher.
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[Mark Knoop]

At 01:47 on 13 Apr 2012, Christopher R. Antila wrote:
> On 04/12/2012 04:12 AM, Mark Knoop wrote:
> >> On Tue, Apr 10, 2012 at 5:34 AM, Brendan Jones 
> >> <brendan.jones.it(a)gmail.com&gt;wrote:
> >>> 
> >>> Agreed - native Jack support would be a plus (I think something
> >>> like audacious fits the bill here).
> >>> 
> >>> Brendan
> > 
> > Could I suggest alsaplayer?
> > 
> > http://www.alsaplayer.org/features.php
> > 
>
> Looks good, but... I'm thinking of Mac OS X, which has a feature where
> you can select a media file and press the space bar to preview it in a
> pop-out window. I have this sort of functionality in mind: a clickable
> "seek bar" with times, and buttons for rewind, play/pause, and
> forward. Nothing beyond that.
>
> If I'm going to get this, I'll probably have to write a new
> application myself at some point, or change an existing one.
> AlsaPlayer and Audacious just have too many features to use as I have
> in mind.
>
> On the other hand,
> A) not everybody wants to do what I want to do, and
> B) we need an audio player now, so AlsaPlayer looks like a good choice.
>
> Is anybody else interested in making an audio file player with JACK
> support that has basically no features, opens and starts playing in an
> instant, and can be easily (for users) integrated into a file browser? 
I suspect it would not be tremendously difficult to write a new
interface to AlsaPlayer which would do what you describe. 

https://github.com/alsaplayer/alsaplayer/tree/master/interface

-- 
Mark Knoop

mscore-1.2

[Martin Tarenskeen]

Hi,

Will mscore be updated to version 1.2 in Fedora 16 and 17 ?

-- 

MT

mscore-1.2

[Orcan Ogetbil]

On Fri, May 18, 2012 at 5:51 AM, Martin Tarenskeen  wrote:
>  Hi,
>
>  Will mscore be updated to version 1.2 in Fedora 16 and 17 ?
>  
Hi, it won't be updated to 1.2 in Fedora 16 because the update breaks
the user configuration files created by 1.1 that are stored in the
home directory.

1.2 update is already available in Fedora 17 and later. If you do a
F-16 -> F-17 upgrade, you will still need to remove the configuration
files manually from your home directory.

Cheers,
Orcan

mscore-1.2

[Fernando Lopez-Lezcano]

On 05/18/2012 05:30 AM, Orcan Ogetbil wrote:
>  On Fri, May 18, 2012 at 5:51 AM, Martin Tarenskeen  wrote:
> >
> > Hi,
> >
> > Will mscore be updated to version 1.2 in Fedora 16 and 17 ?
> >
>
>  Hi, it won't be updated to 1.2 in Fedora 16 because the update breaks
>  the user configuration files created by 1.1 that are stored in the
>  home directory. 
Hmmm, I would normally not consider that a showstopper for upgrades... 
or is that because of the Fedora policy for upgrades?

-- Fernando


>  1.2 update is already available in Fedora 17 and later. If you do a
>  F-16 ->  F-17 upgrade, you will still need to remove the configuration
>  files manually from your home directory.

mscore-1.2

[Orcan Ogetbil]

On Sat, May 19, 2012 at 1:44 PM, Fernando Lopez-Lezcano
<nando(a)ccrma.stanford.edu&gt; wrote:
>  On 05/18/2012 05:30 AM, Orcan Ogetbil wrote:
> >
> > On Fri, May 18, 2012 at 5:51 AM, Martin Tarenskeen  wrote:
> >>
> >>
> >> Hi,
> >>
> >> Will mscore be updated to version 1.2 in Fedora 16 and 17 ?
> >>
> >
> > Hi, it won't be updated to 1.2 in Fedora 16 because the update breaks
> > the user configuration files created by 1.1 that are stored in the
> > home directory.
>
>
>  Hmmm, I would normally not consider that a showstopper for upgrades... or is
>  that because of the Fedora policy for upgrades?
>  
I would not either. But there is a policy against behavior change
through updates[1]. A novice user, after doing a yum update, will end
up with a non-functional mscore unless we ship it with wrapper script
to clean up the config file(s) only once on start up after an update.
But no matter how we write this script, it will be too hacky, and we
might end up destroying user configuration data without the user
consent. I just took the safest path. Advanced users can always
download the Fedora 17 SRPM and build it on their Fedora 16 systems.

By the way, Fedora 17 is just around the corner.

Cheers,
Orcan
[1] somewhere buried in  http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Updates_Policy

mscore-1.2

[Martin Tarenskeen]

On Sat, 19 May 2012, Orcan Ogetbil wrote:

>  I just took the safest path. Advanced users can always
>  download the Fedora 17 SRPM and build it on their Fedora 16 systems. 
Yep. That's what I just did.

-- 

MT