On 5 December 2012 18:25:31 Brendan Jones wrote:
LaTeX / TeXLive is *humongous*! A "moderate" installation is at least 300 MB and the whole boat comes to about 3 GB. Inkscape (and Scribus and GIMP and a video editor and sometimes Blender) are usually found on "multimedia" distros, so I'd like to see them. And of course CSound needs to be on an *audio* distro.
I agree. I don't think we *need* LaTex. What propose would it serve in the spin. We already have lilypad for engraving. Inkskape and gimp i would like to see still be on the spin, but i won't cry if we remove them
Some have mentioned post-production of scores.
It was probably me. Frankly, I think we definitely don't need Scribus or especially Blender. GIMP and Inkscape are useful for modifying LilyPond output, and they're pretty small (Inkscape especially).
I'm also willing to say we don't really need LaTeX because: 1.) I highly doubt there are a large number of people who aren't me but would still like to use Fedora Jam for writing academic music papers with LilyPond and LaTeX. 2.) Even I don't use the distribution-provided LaTeX because it's quite old.
What is the default email client in KDE?
kmail I'd imagine
Yes, KMail and the Kontact suite. If default Fedora has a default of something, and "something" isn't an audio-specific thing, I feel we shouldn't change it. Let's waste our time on audio-specific things because, at the end of the day, nobody (reasonable) will avoid Fedora Jam *just because* we use the default Fedora browser instead of the default KDE browser.
Christopher
On 6 December 2012 19:06, Christopher Antila crantila@fedoraproject.org wrote:
On 5 December 2012 18:25:31 Brendan Jones wrote:
Have been resisting the urge to jump in with a 'me too' post, but since I'm writing emails...
LaTeX / TeXLive is *humongous*! A "moderate" installation is at least 300 MB and the whole boat comes to about 3 GB. Inkscape (and Scribus and GIMP and a video editor and sometimes Blender) are usually found on "multimedia" distros, so I'd like to see them. And of course CSound needs to be on an *audio* distro.
I agree. I don't think we *need* LaTex. What propose would it serve in the spin. We already have lilypad for engraving. Inkskape and gimp i would like to see still be on the spin, but i won't cry if we remove them
Some have mentioned post-production of scores.
It was probably me. Frankly, I think we definitely don't need Scribus or especially Blender. GIMP and Inkscape are useful for modifying LilyPond output, and they're pretty small (Inkscape especially).
I'm also willing to say we don't really need LaTeX because: 1.) I highly doubt there are a large number of people who aren't me but would still like to use Fedora Jam for writing academic music papers with LilyPond and LaTeX. 2.) Even I don't use the distribution-provided LaTeX because it's quite old.
Anything that might be considered specialist for a different field should probably get a very critical look. E.g. LaTeX. Esp. LaTeX. It's massive enough to warrant its own spin really. Similarly Scribus and Blender (has Blender actually been suggested?) are quite specialist tools from fairly different fields.
What is the default email client in KDE?
kmail I'd imagine
Yes, KMail and the Kontact suite. If default Fedora has a default of something, and "something" isn't an audio-specific thing, I feel we shouldn't change it. Let's waste our time on audio-specific things because, at the end of the day, nobody (reasonable) will avoid Fedora Jam *just because* we use the default Fedora browser instead of the default KDE browser.
I think specifically the browser was simply that Konqueror doesn't really work well enough and people would be surprised not to find a browser unless they were hoping for a /really/ focused system as it's such a central part of a computer system these days. (You could even make a case for it being important to audio production.)
You can probably draw up three categories of stuff to be considered to various degrees: 1. Audio tools. As many as can realistically be put on there. 2. Non-audio tools that might have an audio creation use, e.g. Inkscape, webcam software (performance videos), that kind of thing. Lots of this is already in the base we build on anyway. 3. Things that people will be surprised if they don't find (i.e. you forget for a second you're on this specialist audio spin and try to do something a computer normally does). A browser is the most obvious, a package manager is less obvious, but of course the route by which they can add anything they do think they need. Probably everything in here is in the base we build on anyway.
Or in conclusion:
Let's waste our time on audio-specific things
(a.k.a. 'me too')
On 12/08/2012 01:25 AM, Ian Malone wrote:
On 6 December 2012 19:06, Christopher Antila crantila@fedoraproject.org wrote:
On 5 December 2012 18:25:31 Brendan Jones wrote:
<snip>
I think specifically the browser was simply that Konqueror doesn't really work well enough and people would be surprised not to find a browser unless they were hoping for a /really/ focused system as it's such a central part of a computer system these days. (You could even make a case for it being important to audio production.)
You can probably draw up three categories of stuff to be considered to various degrees:
- Audio tools. As many as can realistically be put on there.
- Non-audio tools that might have an audio creation use, e.g.
Inkscape, webcam software (performance videos), that kind of thing. Lots of this is already in the base we build on anyway. 3. Things that people will be surprised if they don't find (i.e. you forget for a second you're on this specialist audio spin and try to do something a computer normally does). A browser is the most obvious, a package manager is less obvious, but of course the route by which they can add anything they do think they need. Probably everything in here is in the base we build on anyway.
Or in conclusion:
Let's waste our time on audio-specific things
(a.k.a. 'me too')
I think we need to get this locked down by the 11th so all of this is probably a little to late.
I'm getting conflicting considerations regarding size and composition, so I'll outline them here.
- Christopher Wickert has stated that a spin should serve a specific purpose. Packages should be identified for removal that do not meet the needs of the spin - so not really a size consideration, more about concept (CC'ed Chris here in case I got this wrong).
- a recent email on the spins list indicated that space and bandwith issues are real infrastructure concerns regarding the approval of spins [1]. I don't know if this is more to do with the number of spins of if this is something that each individual spin should also keep in mind. I have asked the question on the list and will report back
- for the rest of use the final size of the spin doesn't seem to be an issue, as long as we have everything we need by default. Having said that, nice to have packages can be installed with relative ease post install or into the liveuser overlay.
As an exercise I ran a query on RPM's by size against the latest compose. This was done in the live environment [2]. I haven't realy gone through this yet and won't have time to do so until tomorrow.
Any changes from here should be run past our wrangler. I imagine that any significant additional packages added to the nightly kickstarts will have to be run by the Spins SIG after the 11th. (Again Christoper this is what I understand to be the case - please correct me if I'm wrong)
[1] http://lists.fedoraproject.org/pipermail/spins/2012-December/002641.html [2] http://bsjones.fedorapeople.org/projects/fedora-jam-rpm-by-size.txt
On 08/12/2012 11:37, Brendan Jones wrote:
On 12/08/2012 01:25 AM, Ian Malone wrote:
On 6 December 2012 19:06, Christopher Antila crantila@fedoraproject.org wrote:
On 5 December 2012 18:25:31 Brendan Jones wrote:
<snip> > > I think specifically the browser was simply that Konqueror doesn't > really work well enough and people would be surprised not to find a > browser unless they were hoping for a /really/ focused system as it's > such a central part of a computer system these days. (You could even > make a case for it being important to audio production.) > > You can probably draw up three categories of stuff to be considered to > various degrees: > 1. Audio tools. As many as can realistically be put on there. > 2. Non-audio tools that might have an audio creation use, e.g. > Inkscape, webcam software (performance videos), that kind of thing. > Lots of this is already in the base we build on anyway. > 3. Things that people will be surprised if they don't find (i.e. you > forget for a second you're on this specialist audio spin and try to do > something a computer normally does). A browser is the most obvious, a > package manager is less obvious, but of course the route by which they > can add anything they do think they need. Probably everything in here > is in the base we build on anyway. > > > > Or in conclusion: >> Let's waste our time on audio-specific things > (a.k.a. 'me too') > I think we need to get this locked down by the 11th so all of this is probably a little to late.
I'm getting conflicting considerations regarding size and composition, so I'll outline them here.
- Christopher Wickert has stated that a spin should serve a specific
purpose. Packages should be identified for removal that do not meet the needs of the spin - so not really a size consideration, more about concept (CC'ed Chris here in case I got this wrong).
- a recent email on the spins list indicated that space and bandwith
issues are real infrastructure concerns regarding the approval of spins [1]. I don't know if this is more to do with the number of spins of if this is something that each individual spin should also keep in mind. I have asked the question on the list and will report back
- for the rest of use the final size of the spin doesn't seem to be an
issue, as long as we have everything we need by default. Having said that, nice to have packages can be installed with relative ease post install or into the liveuser overlay.
As an exercise I ran a query on RPM's by size against the latest compose. This was done in the live environment [2]. I haven't realy gone through this yet and won't have time to do so until tomorrow.
Any changes from here should be run past our wrangler. I imagine that any significant additional packages added to the nightly kickstarts will have to be run by the Spins SIG after the 11th. (Again Christoper this is what I understand to be the case - please correct me if I'm wrong)
[1] http://lists.fedoraproject.org/pipermail/spins/2012-December/002641.html [2] http://bsjones.fedorapeople.org/projects/fedora-jam-rpm-by-size.txt _______________________________________________ music mailing list music@lists.fedoraproject.org https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/music
Looking at that list, there is nothing shouting out "remove me". Not sure what is pulling in mysql-server though.
Shutter and the fluid-soundfonts (because they are **huge**) are the only ones I can see myself *maybe* wanting to remove.
But until we know the status for the approval, I don't think we should mess any more with the kickstart
On Sat, Dec 8, 2012 at 3:06 AM, Jørn Lomax northlomax@gmail.com wrote:
On 08/12/2012 11:37, Brendan Jones wrote:
On 12/08/2012 01:25 AM, Ian Malone wrote:
On 6 December 2012 19:06, Christopher Antila crantila@fedoraproject.org wrote:
On 5 December 2012 18:25:31 Brendan Jones wrote:
<snip> > > > I think specifically the browser was simply that Konqueror doesn't > really work well enough and people would be surprised not to find a > browser unless they were hoping for a /really/ focused system as it's > such a central part of a computer system these days. (You could even > make a case for it being important to audio production.) > > You can probably draw up three categories of stuff to be considered to > various degrees: > 1. Audio tools. As many as can realistically be put on there. > 2. Non-audio tools that might have an audio creation use, e.g. > Inkscape, webcam software (performance videos), that kind of thing. > Lots of this is already in the base we build on anyway. > 3. Things that people will be surprised if they don't find (i.e. you > forget for a second you're on this specialist audio spin and try to do > something a computer normally does). A browser is the most obvious, a > package manager is less obvious, but of course the route by which they > can add anything they do think they need. Probably everything in here > is in the base we build on anyway. > > > > Or in conclusion: >> >> Let's waste our time on audio-specific things > > (a.k.a. 'me too') > I think we need to get this locked down by the 11th so all of this is probably a little to late.
I'm getting conflicting considerations regarding size and composition, so I'll outline them here.
- Christopher Wickert has stated that a spin should serve a specific
purpose. Packages should be identified for removal that do not meet the needs of the spin - so not really a size consideration, more about concept (CC'ed Chris here in case I got this wrong).
- a recent email on the spins list indicated that space and bandwith
issues are real infrastructure concerns regarding the approval of spins [1]. I don't know if this is more to do with the number of spins of if this is something that each individual spin should also keep in mind. I have asked the question on the list and will report back
- for the rest of use the final size of the spin doesn't seem to be an
issue, as long as we have everything we need by default. Having said that, nice to have packages can be installed with relative ease post install or into the liveuser overlay.
As an exercise I ran a query on RPM's by size against the latest compose. This was done in the live environment [2]. I haven't realy gone through this yet and won't have time to do so until tomorrow.
Any changes from here should be run past our wrangler. I imagine that any significant additional packages added to the nightly kickstarts will have to be run by the Spins SIG after the 11th. (Again Christoper this is what I understand to be the case - please correct me if I'm wrong)
[1] http://lists.fedoraproject.org/pipermail/spins/2012-December/002641.html [2] http://bsjones.fedorapeople.org/projects/fedora-jam-rpm-by-size.txt _______________________________________________ music mailing list music@lists.fedoraproject.org https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/music
Looking at that list, there is nothing shouting out "remove me". Not sure what is pulling in mysql-server though.
I could run an 'rpm -q --whatrequires' to figure that out. And even though the freed space is small, I'd still like to see 'calligra-sheets', 'calligra-words' and 'calligra-stage' removed.
Shutter and the fluid-soundfonts (because they are **huge**) are the only ones I can see myself *maybe* wanting to remove.
But until we know the status for the approval, I don't think we should mess any more with the kickstart
-- Jørn Lomax Nestleder Studentutvalget NT-Fak CS Student University of Tromsø Blog: http://lurimax.posterous.com/
music mailing list music@lists.fedoraproject.org https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/music
On 8 December 2012 22:12, M. Edward (Ed) Borasky znmeb@znmeb.net wrote:
On Sat, Dec 8, 2012 at 3:06 AM, Jørn Lomax northlomax@gmail.com wrote:
Looking at that list, there is nothing shouting out "remove me". Not sure what is pulling in mysql-server though.
I could run an 'rpm -q --whatrequires' to figure that out. And even though the freed space is small, I'd still like to see 'calligra-sheets', 'calligra-words' and 'calligra-stage' removed.
akonadi-mysql apparently. Removing it only results in those two packages going and frees 45MB.
Removing calligra-* would free 54MB (I'm going by yum's reported installed size) and frees 54MB, no packages are removed as dependencies. The only thing is having /no/ word processing, maybe there's a case for poster production or set lists? Having calligra-words kept on is about 16MB, vs about 40MB for abiword with deps.
Other than calligra there's not really anything non-audio at the moment apart from some small (I assume...) KDE applications, personal organizer, contact manager. There are some random things like a bittorrent client (ktorrent) and blogging client (bloglio) that could go. There is an image viewer, document viewer and paint programme (kolourpaint), but I think those fall under basics.
I just ran a few test 'yum erase" operations. Yes, akonadi-mysql is bringing in part of the MySQL collection. But Amarok is bringing in part of it too.
If KMail is there and functioning, you don't need Thunderbird, though. KMail can do everything Thunderbird and Evolution can do.
On Sat, Dec 8, 2012 at 3:51 PM, Ian Malone ibmalone@gmail.com wrote:
On 8 December 2012 22:12, M. Edward (Ed) Borasky znmeb@znmeb.net wrote:
On Sat, Dec 8, 2012 at 3:06 AM, Jørn Lomax northlomax@gmail.com wrote:
Looking at that list, there is nothing shouting out "remove me". Not sure what is pulling in mysql-server though.
I could run an 'rpm -q --whatrequires' to figure that out. And even though the freed space is small, I'd still like to see 'calligra-sheets', 'calligra-words' and 'calligra-stage' removed.
akonadi-mysql apparently. Removing it only results in those two packages going and frees 45MB.
Removing calligra-* would free 54MB (I'm going by yum's reported installed size) and frees 54MB, no packages are removed as dependencies. The only thing is having /no/ word processing, maybe there's a case for poster production or set lists? Having calligra-words kept on is about 16MB, vs about 40MB for abiword with deps.
Other than calligra there's not really anything non-audio at the moment apart from some small (I assume...) KDE applications, personal organizer, contact manager. There are some random things like a bittorrent client (ktorrent) and blogging client (bloglio) that could go. There is an image viewer, document viewer and paint programme (kolourpaint), but I think those fall under basics.
-- imalone http://ibmalone.blogspot.co.uk _______________________________________________ music mailing list music@lists.fedoraproject.org https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/music
-
Brendan Jones -
Christopher Antila -
Ian Malone -
Jørn Loamx -
M. Edward (Ed) Borasky