Please realize that I first clicked on the python-sig request in FAS nearly a year ago as I remember it. I applied for the python-sig mailing list a bit later. When I finally noticed on IRC that I had missed something in the process, I read the wiki and realized I needed to post a Self-Introduction, which I did in April. So I did not do things in the right order, but the time scale here is getting quite silly, no?

On Fri, Jul 29, 2016 at 11:23 AM, Thomas Spura <tomspur@fedoraproject.org> wrote:

Petr Viktorin <pviktori@redhat.com> schrieb am Fr., 29. Juli 2016 um 09:59 Uhr:
On 07/20/2016 09:01 AM, Matthias Runge wrote:
> On 14/07/16 16:20, Tim Orling wrote:
>> Hi Petr,
>>
>> It is precisely the security information that I am seeking access to. My
>> job depends on it.
>>
>> I have already done everything in [0]. In some cases more than once. And
>> we are talking over the period of many months. So let me ask this in
>> return: what is the process once someone has done everything in [0]? The
>> only place that I can have any dialog is this mailing list or
>> #fedora-python. Application to the FAS group is a one time, one way
>> thing. Application to the python-sig mailing list is a one way thing. A
>> human on the other end must make some action to move the process forward.
>>
>> Out of frustration, I emailed tomspur recently, as he is listed as the
>> main contact for python-sig group in FAS. Other than a response from
>> him, I have not heard anything else. I can understand that it is summer
>> and people have holidays and it has not been that long yet.

What was his response?

My response was, that I'm quite busy recently and don't find enough time to work on Fedora in general. I would welcome a more active python community and have sponsored a few people, that I know, to the python-sig to get everything going. It would be great, if we can reive the python-sig and more sponsors will look for new contributors. My initial goal for "please write a short introduction of yourself to the python-devel list" was exactly that: Getting to know each other and kicking off a discussion. I can only sponsor people, who I know and rely on other sponsors to do the same...

And so there has to be a way to get to know new people or the whole thing is not maintainable. I am just trying to figure out what that "way" is, giiven my current situation.

>> But I must reiterate that this process has been going on for months from
>> my side. Fedora already has a problem of perception of being too Red Hat
>> insider in some circles. My observation has been that Red Hat employees
>> have been gently reminded on #fedora-python that they need to apply to
>> python-sig. I am assuming they have been successful. Meanwhile, I wait
>> for action on the part of a member of python-sig.

You're waiting for action of a *sponsor* of python-sig, which is a much
smaller group:
https://admin.fedoraproject.org/accounts/group/members/python-sig/*/sponsor

FWIW:
- Thomas Spura (who approved me) is not a Red Hatter as far as I can tell.
- I've been at Red Hat, working on Python software in Fedora, for more
than three years before being nudged into applying to python-sig. I hope
that the nudging was related to work I've done, not to who employed me.

I cannot speak for the nudging, but I approved you, as you are very active on github's fedora-python and I knew you from there.

>> That action could be as simple as, "we don't know you, could you please
>> submit a python package for review so we can start to get to know you?".
>> But that still requires action on the part of a member of python-sig.

I'm not a gatekeeper, and I don't know the exact process. But the wiki says:
"If there is interest and shown familiarity with our guidelines and
processes (which usually manifests in maintaining at least 5 to 10
Python packages) you can apply for having access to a broader group of
packages that is commonly maintained. If you choose to apply for this,
please discuss it with a sponsor of the python-sig. (You can find a list
of those in FAS.) "

This changed now quite recently and is hopefully more understanable. I had a discussion on #fedora-python with Charlalampos Stratakis and Miro Hroncok and we try to be more active and try to revive the python-sig.

So, your mail to Thomas was exactly the thing you need to do.

The process should be made less private. On the other hand, porbably
it's just expected that you're somewhat known in the community and have
been in contact with one of the sponsors before.

Maybe the wiki page was misleading before. But you can only sponsor someone who you know and trust. If you are actively maintaining python packages, getting to know a sponsor should be doable.

When I started this process, the information on the wiki was quite different, as Thomas mentioned.

https://fedoraproject.org/w/index.php?title=SIGs/Python&diff=465844&oldid=418899

I'm sorry that your experience was not a good one so far and we hope that this process will improve in the coming weeks...

All the best,
Thomas

At this point, I am trying to keep an open mind and not just feel burned by the python-sig community. I am maintaining the only package I care about that became orphaned. I will continue to do so. I don't have a current need for packages not supported already by Fedora. So now I am stuck with your group's desire for me to be a maintainer of 5 to 10 packages. Since I don't have new packages I want to add, I would need to request to become a co-maintainer of existing packages. Then the current maintainers might likely say, we don't know you so no. I am still stuck in limbo. Or at least that is how it seems right now.

I want to help the community. Why else would I be working on Fedora? My entire career is open source now. Every day. All day. I think I made a fairly good argument in my Self-Introduction about my background and my contributions outside of Fedora for python in particular. I am here offering to help Fedora as well.

Now it is time to figure out what the path forward is. Reality may simply be that I get too busy with other things and the bad experience turns me off to wanting to help python-sig. At least my speaking up is causing new discussion in the group and I am thankful for that.

But I will note that no one has suggested an actual path forward yet in my own case. No one actually said anything--at al--until I pinged Thomas directly. I am glad to hear Thomas say that changes are in the works so that others may have a better experience.

Cheers.

--Tim (Intel Open Source Technology Center)
FAS: ttorling (perl-sig, modularity-wg)

> Your case could (or should) serve as an example, what can go wrong with
> the SIG and a onboarding process.
>
> Ideally, we'd have a documented process and a tracker, where status of
> approvals being tracked. FAS only provides 3 state (nothing, unapproved,
> approved). Maybe it's useful to do a process comparable to becoming a
> sponsor or a mentor in fedora (open a ticket in trac, have an open
> discussion about each person, including a vote.)
--
Petr Viktorin
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