RFC: Proposal for Rel-Eng project management/planning

[Adam Miller]

Hello all,
    Hot off the heals of my email to start a conversation about what
all it's going to take to get the Fedora Rel-Eng Staging environment
up and running again[0] I wanted to make a proposal for a new way to
manage projects that can be broken down into small consumable "units
of work" much in line with kanban[1].

Proposal:
    Projects would be planned in the open in irc meetings (logged with
meetbot) and documented in the wiki for general overview and
posterity, from there this is broken down into specific units of work
that can be tracked and picked up (hopefully) by any interested member
of the Rel-Eng team. I like to think this will make the process of
work transparent to the broader community as well as offer an
approachable avenue for new Rel-Eng team members to join in allowing
them to select low-hanging-fruit type units of work to use as learning
experiences.
    Also, the details of this project planning workflow (whatever it
ends up being) would be documented in the Fedora wiki such that it
could be used as part of an "on-boarding" document for community
members interested in joining the Fedora Rel-Eng team.

My hope here is to introduce a new piece of infrastructure to fill
this requirement that provides a kanban-style board of cards much like
Trello[2] but using a FOSS solution that we can host ourselves. For
this I'd like to propose the use of Cantas[3]. (This part would likely
need a request sent to Fedora Infrastructure team unless we're fine
just hosting it somewhere like OpenShift Online).

Questions, comments and general snide remarks welcome! :)

Thank you,
-AdamM

[0] - https://lists.fedoraproject.org/pipermail/rel-eng/2015-April/019800.html
[1] - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kanban_%28development%29
[2] - https://trello.com/
[3] - https://github.com/onepiecejs/nodejs-cantas

[M. Edward (Ed) Borasky]

<snide>
On Fedora 22
```
$ dnf search cantas
Using metadata from Tue Apr 14 00:01:36 2015 (10 days, 9:06:06 hours old)
Error: No matches found.

```

On Fri, Apr 24, 2015 at 7:36 AM, Adam Miller
<maxamillion(a)fedoraproject.org&gt; wrote:

[snip]

>  My hope here is to introduce a new piece of infrastructure to fill
>  this requirement that provides a kanban-style board of cards much like
>  Trello[2] but using a FOSS solution that we can host ourselves. For
>  this I'd like to propose the use of Cantas[3]. (This part would likely
>  need a request sent to Fedora Infrastructure team unless we're fine
>  just hosting it somewhere like OpenShift Online).
>
>  Questions, comments and general snide remarks welcome! :) 
<snide>
On Fedora 22
```
$ dnf search cantas
Using metadata from Tue Apr 14 00:01:36 2015 (10 days, 9:06:06 hours old)
Error: No matches found.

```
</snide>

But yeah, the proposal seems great.


-- 
OSJourno: Robust Power Tools for Digital Journalists
http://www.znmeb.mobi/stories/osjourno-robust-power-tools-for-digital-jou...

Remember, if you're traveling to Bactria, Hump Day is Tuesday and Thursday.

[Kevin Fenzi]

On Fri, 24 Apr 2015 09:36:46 -0500
Adam Miller <maxamillion(a)fedoraproject.org&gt; wrote:

>  Hello all,
>      Hot off the heals of my email to start a conversation about what
>  all it's going to take to get the Fedora Rel-Eng Staging environment
>  up and running again[0] I wanted to make a proposal for a new way to
>  manage projects that can be broken down into small consumable "units
>  of work" much in line with kanban[1]. 
Note that many of these topics would be good for a meeting/more
interactive discussion, IMHO. ;) 

>  Proposal:
>      Projects would be planned in the open in irc meetings (logged with
>  meetbot) and documented in the wiki for general overview and
>  posterity, from there this is broken down into specific units of work
>  that can be tracked and picked up (hopefully) by any interested member
>  of the Rel-Eng team.  
Well, the wiki is kind of horrible for planning things. It might work,
but it's much easier for a wiki page to start growing moss and decaying
than a trac ticket IMHO. So, I would suggest trac (or whatever
ticketing system) instead of wiki for projects. 

>  I like to think this will make the process of
>  work transparent to the broader community as well as offer an
>  approachable avenue for new Rel-Eng team members to join in allowing
>  them to select low-hanging-fruit type units of work to use as learning
>  experiences.
>      Also, the details of this project planning workflow (whatever it
>  ends up being) would be documented in the Fedora wiki such that it
>  could be used as part of an "on-boarding" document for community
>  members interested in joining the Fedora Rel-Eng team. 
Sure, that sounds great. 

>  My hope here is to introduce a new piece of infrastructure to fill
>  this requirement that provides a kanban-style board of cards much like
>  Trello[2] but using a FOSS solution that we can host ourselves. For
>  this I'd like to propose the use of Cantas[3]. (This part would likely
>  need a request sent to Fedora Infrastructure team unless we're fine
>  just hosting it somewhere like OpenShift Online).
>  
>  Questions, comments and general snide remarks welcome! :) 
As mentioned in a followup, it would need to get packaged up, etc if we
want to host one. 

kevin

[Adam Miller]

On Fri, Apr 24, 2015 at 11:25 AM, Kevin Fenzi <kevin(a)scrye.com&gt; wrote:
>  On Fri, 24 Apr 2015 09:36:46 -0500
>  Adam Miller <maxamillion(a)fedoraproject.org&gt; wrote:
>
> > Hello all,
> >     Hot off the heals of my email to start a conversation about what
> > all it's going to take to get the Fedora Rel-Eng Staging environment
> > up and running again[0] I wanted to make a proposal for a new way to
> > manage projects that can be broken down into small consumable "units
> > of work" much in line with kanban[1].
>
>  Note that many of these topics would be good for a meeting/more
>  interactive discussion, IMHO. ;) 
+1 - How do I request something be put on the Rel-Eng meeting agenda
for next week?

> > Proposal:
> >     Projects would be planned in the open in irc meetings (logged with
> > meetbot) and documented in the wiki for general overview and
> > posterity, from there this is broken down into specific units of work
> > that can be tracked and picked up (hopefully) by any interested member
> > of the Rel-Eng team.
>
>  Well, the wiki is kind of horrible for planning things. It might work,
>  but it's much easier for a wiki page to start growing moss and decaying
>  than a trac ticket IMHO. So, I would suggest trac (or whatever
>  ticketing system) instead of wiki for projects. 
That's fair, I'm open to any solution that the group prefers. I mostly
suggested the wiki because it's the only collaborative document
editing platform I know of inside the Fedora Infrastructure.

> > I like to think this will make the process of
> > work transparent to the broader community as well as offer an
> > approachable avenue for new Rel-Eng team members to join in allowing
> > them to select low-hanging-fruit type units of work to use as learning
> > experiences.
> >     Also, the details of this project planning workflow (whatever it
> > ends up being) would be documented in the Fedora wiki such that it
> > could be used as part of an "on-boarding" document for community
> > members interested in joining the Fedora Rel-Eng team.
>
>  Sure, that sounds great.
>
> > My hope here is to introduce a new piece of infrastructure to fill
> > this requirement that provides a kanban-style board of cards much like
> > Trello[2] but using a FOSS solution that we can host ourselves. For
> > this I'd like to propose the use of Cantas[3]. (This part would likely
> > need a request sent to Fedora Infrastructure team unless we're fine
> > just hosting it somewhere like OpenShift Online).
> >
> > Questions, comments and general snide remarks welcome! :)
>
>  As mentioned in a followup, it would need to get packaged up, etc if we
>  want to host one.
>  
It's been packaged upstream[0], I'll reach out to upstream and find
out if they're interested in submitting to Fedora for Package Review.

One other thing to note is we might need to contribute a patch
upstream for an auth plugin to integrate with FAS, I'll try to find
some time to dig into that a little in the near future.

-AdamM

[0] - https://github.com/onepiecejs/nodejs-cantas/blob/master/nodejs-cantas.spec

>  kevin
>
>  _______________________________________________
>  rel-eng mailing list
>  rel-eng(a)lists.fedoraproject.org
>  https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/rel-eng

[Adam Miller]

On Fri, Apr 24, 2015 at 2:27 PM, Adam Miller
<maxamillion(a)fedoraproject.org&gt; wrote:
>  On Fri, Apr 24, 2015 at 11:25 AM, Kevin Fenzi <kevin(a)scrye.com&gt;
> wrote:
> > On Fri, 24 Apr 2015 09:36:46 -0500
> > Adam Miller <maxamillion(a)fedoraproject.org&gt; wrote:
> >
> >> Hello all,
> >>     Hot off the heals of my email to start a conversation about what
> >> all it's going to take to get the Fedora Rel-Eng Staging environment
> >> up and running again[0] I wanted to make a proposal for a new way to
> >> manage projects that can be broken down into small consumable "units
> >> of work" much in line with kanban[1].
> >
> > Note that many of these topics would be good for a meeting/more
> > interactive discussion, IMHO. ;)
>
>  +1 - How do I request something be put on the Rel-Eng meeting agenda
>  for next week?
>
> >
> >> Proposal:
> >>     Projects would be planned in the open in irc meetings (logged with
> >> meetbot) and documented in the wiki for general overview and
> >> posterity, from there this is broken down into specific units of work
> >> that can be tracked and picked up (hopefully) by any interested member
> >> of the Rel-Eng team.
> >
> > Well, the wiki is kind of horrible for planning things. It might work,
> > but it's much easier for a wiki page to start growing moss and decaying
> > than a trac ticket IMHO. So, I would suggest trac (or whatever
> > ticketing system) instead of wiki for projects.
>
>  That's fair, I'm open to any solution that the group prefers. I mostly
>  suggested the wiki because it's the only collaborative document
>  editing platform I know of inside the Fedora Infrastructure.
>
> >
> >> I like to think this will make the process of
> >> work transparent to the broader community as well as offer an
> >> approachable avenue for new Rel-Eng team members to join in allowing
> >> them to select low-hanging-fruit type units of work to use as learning
> >> experiences.
> >>     Also, the details of this project planning workflow (whatever it
> >> ends up being) would be documented in the Fedora wiki such that it
> >> could be used as part of an "on-boarding" document for community
> >> members interested in joining the Fedora Rel-Eng team.
> >
> > Sure, that sounds great.
> >
> >> My hope here is to introduce a new piece of infrastructure to fill
> >> this requirement that provides a kanban-style board of cards much like
> >> Trello[2] but using a FOSS solution that we can host ourselves. For
> >> this I'd like to propose the use of Cantas[3]. (This part would likely
> >> need a request sent to Fedora Infrastructure team unless we're fine
> >> just hosting it somewhere like OpenShift Online).
> >>
> >> Questions, comments and general snide remarks welcome! :)
> >
> > As mentioned in a followup, it would need to get packaged up, etc if we
> > want to host one.
> >
>
>  It's been packaged upstream[0], I'll reach out to upstream and find
>  out if they're interested in submitting to Fedora for Package Review.
>  
Looks like someone beat me to the punch, I added a comment and will
follow along:

https://github.com/onepiecejs/nodejs-cantas/issues/65

-AdamM

>  One other thing to note is we might need to contribute a patch
>  upstream for an auth plugin to integrate with FAS, I'll try to find
>  some time to dig into that a little in the near future.
>
>  -AdamM
>
>  [0] - https://github.com/onepiecejs/nodejs-cantas/blob/master/nodejs-cantas.spec
>
> > kevin
> >
> > _______________________________________________
> > rel-eng mailing list
> > rel-eng(a)lists.fedoraproject.org
> > https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/rel-eng

[Kevin Fenzi]

On Fri, 24 Apr 2015 14:27:19 -0500
Adam Miller <maxamillion(a)fedoraproject.org&gt; wrote:

>  On Fri, Apr 24, 2015 at 11:25 AM, Kevin Fenzi <kevin(a)scrye.com&gt;
> wrote:
>  > On Fri, 24 Apr 2015 09:36:46 -0500
>  > Adam Miller <maxamillion(a)fedoraproject.org&gt; wrote:
>  >
>  >> Hello all,
>  >>     Hot off the heals of my email to start a conversation about
>  >> what all it's going to take to get the Fedora Rel-Eng Staging
>  >> environment up and running again[0] I wanted to make a proposal
>  >> for a new way to manage projects that can be broken down into
>  >> small consumable "units of work" much in line with kanban[1].
>  >
>  > Note that many of these topics would be good for a meeting/more
>  > interactive discussion, IMHO. ;)
>  
>  +1 - How do I request something be put on the Rel-Eng meeting agenda
>  for next week? 
File a trac ticket and add the 'meeting' keyword. 

kevin

[Paul W. Frields]

On Fri, Apr 24, 2015 at 10:25:36AM -0600, Kevin Fenzi wrote:
>  On Fri, 24 Apr 2015 09:36:46 -0500
>  Adam Miller <maxamillion(a)fedoraproject.org&gt; wrote:
>  
>  > Hello all,
>  >     Hot off the heals of my email to start a conversation about what
>  > all it's going to take to get the Fedora Rel-Eng Staging environment
>  > up and running again[0] I wanted to make a proposal for a new way to
>  > manage projects that can be broken down into small consumable "units
>  > of work" much in line with kanban[1].
>  
>  Note that many of these topics would be good for a meeting/more
>  interactive discussion, IMHO. ;)  
Good point.  Sounds like we should pull one together -- at least with
Adam (obviously), reps from rel-eng, infrastructure, apps side, and a
program manager if possible.  I think Matthew would likely also want
to attend; I definitely would.

Do we have enough interest that I should set up a whenisgood for this?

>  > Proposal:
>  >     Projects would be planned in the open in irc meetings (logged with
>  > meetbot) and documented in the wiki for general overview and
>  > posterity, from there this is broken down into specific units of work
>  > that can be tracked and picked up (hopefully) by any interested member
>  > of the Rel-Eng team. 
>  
>  Well, the wiki is kind of horrible for planning things. It might work,
>  but it's much easier for a wiki page to start growing moss and decaying
>  than a trac ticket IMHO. So, I would suggest trac (or whatever
>  ticketing system) instead of wiki for projects.  
If we're talking about rel-eng stuff, it seems like a good idea to use
that Trac for visibility rather than a separate one.  Maybe a new
component is needed?  Don't want to get bikesheddy here, just trying
to avoid a disconnect.

>  > I like to think this will make the process of
>  > work transparent to the broader community as well as offer an
>  > approachable avenue for new Rel-Eng team members to join in allowing
>  > them to select low-hanging-fruit type units of work to use as learning
>  > experiences.
>  >     Also, the details of this project planning workflow (whatever it
>  > ends up being) would be documented in the Fedora wiki such that it
>  > could be used as part of an "on-boarding" document for community
>  > members interested in joining the Fedora Rel-Eng team.
>  
>  Sure, that sounds great.  
We just had a new addition to our kernel team who is dogfooding that
team's wiki information to find out what we need to fix for
contributors.  Seems like this is somewhat an opportunity for the
same?

Having team and workflow details out of date on the wiki, and having
few contributors, are sort of a "vicious cycle" problem.  Breaking the
cycle with some better docs is a great idea.

>  > My hope here is to introduce a new piece of infrastructure to
> fill
>  > this requirement that provides a kanban-style board of cards much like
>  > Trello[2] but using a FOSS solution that we can host ourselves. For
>  > this I'd like to propose the use of Cantas[3]. (This part would likely
>  > need a request sent to Fedora Infrastructure team unless we're fine
>  > just hosting it somewhere like OpenShift Online).
>  > 
>  > Questions, comments and general snide remarks welcome! :)
>  
>  As mentioned in a followup, it would need to get packaged up, etc if we
>  want to host one.  
I suggested to David Gay (oddshocks) that he look at this for
packaging.


-- 
Paul W. Frields                                http://paul.frields.org/
  gpg fingerprint: 3DA6 A0AC 6D58 FEC4 0233  5906 ACDB C937 BD11 3717
  http://redhat.com/   -  -  -  -   http://pfrields.fedorapeople.org/
    The open source story continues to grow: http://opensource.com

[Ralph Bean]

On Mon, Apr 27, 2015 at 10:58:34AM -0400, Paul W. Frields wrote:
>  On Fri, Apr 24, 2015 at 10:25:36AM -0600, Kevin Fenzi wrote:
>  > On Fri, 24 Apr 2015 09:36:46 -0500
>  > Adam Miller <maxamillion(a)fedoraproject.org&gt; wrote:
>  > > My hope here is to introduce a new piece of infrastructure to fill
>  > > this requirement that provides a kanban-style board of cards much like
>  > > Trello[2] but using a FOSS solution that we can host ourselves. For
>  > > this I'd like to propose the use of Cantas[3]. (This part would likely
>  > > need a request sent to Fedora Infrastructure team unless we're fine
>  > > just hosting it somewhere like OpenShift Online).
>  > > 
>  > > Questions, comments and general snide remarks welcome! :)
>  > 
>  > As mentioned in a followup, it would need to get packaged up, etc if we
>  > want to host one. 
>  
>  I suggested to David Gay (oddshocks) that he look at this for
>  packaging. 
It looks like there are nodejs issues in the rawhide buildroot that
will block packaging efforts here for the time being:
https://lists.fedoraproject.org/pipermail/nodejs/2015-April/000176.html

[Josh Boyer]

On Mon, Apr 27, 2015 at 12:40 PM, Ralph Bean <rbean(a)redhat.com&gt; wrote:
>  On Mon, Apr 27, 2015 at 10:58:34AM -0400, Paul W. Frields wrote:
> > On Fri, Apr 24, 2015 at 10:25:36AM -0600, Kevin Fenzi wrote:
> > > On Fri, 24 Apr 2015 09:36:46 -0500
> > > Adam Miller <maxamillion(a)fedoraproject.org&gt; wrote:
> > > > My hope here is to introduce a new piece of infrastructure to fill
> > > > this requirement that provides a kanban-style board of cards much like
> > > > Trello[2] but using a FOSS solution that we can host ourselves. For
> > > > this I'd like to propose the use of Cantas[3]. (This part would likely
> > > > need a request sent to Fedora Infrastructure team unless we're fine
> > > > just hosting it somewhere like OpenShift Online).
> > > >
> > > > Questions, comments and general snide remarks welcome! :)
> > >
> > > As mentioned in a followup, it would need to get packaged up, etc if we
> > > want to host one.
> >
> > I suggested to David Gay (oddshocks) that he look at this for
> > packaging.
>
>  It looks like there are nodejs issues in the rawhide buildroot that
>  will block packaging efforts here for the time being:
>  https://lists.fedoraproject.org/pipermail/nodejs/2015-April/000176.html 
So, in one of my many discussions with Paul last week, we were talking
about containers, how we're approaching them in Fedora, etc.  One of
the ideas was that we should probably look at dogfooding container
technology within Fedora itself to become more comfortable with it.

I know we like things to be packaged in Fedora and there is nothing
wrong with that.  However, deploying Cantas via a container would seem
to be an ideal thing to try as an initial dogfooding effort.  It would
let both rel-eng and Infra get used to the technologies while also
providing a valuable service to themselves.  What do people think of
that idea?

josh

[Kevin Fenzi]

On Mon, 27 Apr 2015 12:48:24 -0400
Josh Boyer <jwboyer(a)fedoraproject.org&gt; wrote:

>  So, in one of my many discussions with Paul last week, we were
> talking
>  about containers, how we're approaching them in Fedora, etc.  One of
>  the ideas was that we should probably look at dogfooding container
>  technology within Fedora itself to become more comfortable with it. 
Yes. I have had this same thought. 

>  I know we like things to be packaged in Fedora and there is nothing
>  wrong with that.  However, deploying Cantas via a container would seem
>  to be an ideal thing to try as an initial dogfooding effort.  It would
>  let both rel-eng and Infra get used to the technologies while also
>  providing a valuable service to themselves.  What do people think of
>  that idea? 
I'm honestly not sure. ;) 

I think it might be workable, or it might end up failing to provide all
the things we want from an application that we maintain. I'm perfectly
happy trying to find time to find out which it is, but I don't think we
should start promising anything yet. 

kevin

[Joe Brockmeier]

On 04/27/2015 12:48 PM, Josh Boyer wrote:
>  I know we like things to be packaged in Fedora and there is nothing
>  wrong with that.  However, deploying Cantas via a container would seem
>  to be an ideal thing to try as an initial dogfooding effort.  It would
>  let both rel-eng and Infra get used to the technologies while also
>  providing a valuable service to themselves.  What do people think of
>  that idea? 
Not surprisingly, I like the idea.

Not to be contrarian, but I also question how much value RPM-izing
Cantas has. Would this be akin to packaging something like WordPress,
because I've never found it easier to install & maintain WordPress via
RPM than to just grab the tarball.

Best,

jzb
-- 
Joe Brockmeier | Principal Cloud & Storage Analyst
jzb(a)redhat.com | http://community.redhat.com/
Twitter: @jzb  | http://dissociatedpress.net/

[Paul W. Frields]

On Mon, Apr 27, 2015 at 12:48:24PM -0400, Josh Boyer wrote:
>  On Mon, Apr 27, 2015 at 12:40 PM, Ralph Bean <rbean(a)redhat.com&gt;
> wrote:
>  > On Mon, Apr 27, 2015 at 10:58:34AM -0400, Paul W. Frields wrote:
>  >> On Fri, Apr 24, 2015 at 10:25:36AM -0600, Kevin Fenzi wrote:
>  >> > On Fri, 24 Apr 2015 09:36:46 -0500
>  >> > Adam Miller <maxamillion(a)fedoraproject.org&gt; wrote:
>  >> > > My hope here is to introduce a new piece of infrastructure to fill
>  >> > > this requirement that provides a kanban-style board of cards much
> like
>  >> > > Trello[2] but using a FOSS solution that we can host ourselves. For
>  >> > > this I'd like to propose the use of Cantas[3]. (This part would
> likely
>  >> > > need a request sent to Fedora Infrastructure team unless we're
> fine
>  >> > > just hosting it somewhere like OpenShift Online).
>  >> > >
>  >> > > Questions, comments and general snide remarks welcome! :)
>  >> >
>  >> > As mentioned in a followup, it would need to get packaged up, etc if we
>  >> > want to host one.
>  >>
>  >> I suggested to David Gay (oddshocks) that he look at this for
>  >> packaging.
>  >
>  > It looks like there are nodejs issues in the rawhide buildroot that
>  > will block packaging efforts here for the time being:
>  > https://lists.fedoraproject.org/pipermail/nodejs/2015-April/000176.html 
I suppose it's possible, even if unusual, to package just for EPEL
(not Rawhide)?  Of course, that's pretty much skirting a well known
problem with our packaging approach vs. usptreams which are more
free-wheeling when it comes to breaking things.  Which leads to...

>  So, in one of my many discussions with Paul last week, we were
> talking
>  about containers, how we're approaching them in Fedora, etc.  One of
>  the ideas was that we should probably look at dogfooding container
>  technology within Fedora itself to become more comfortable with it.
>  
>  I know we like things to be packaged in Fedora and there is nothing
>  wrong with that.  However, deploying Cantas via a container would seem
>  to be an ideal thing to try as an initial dogfooding effort.  It would
>  let both rel-eng and Infra get used to the technologies while also
>  providing a valuable service to themselves.  What do people think of
>  that idea? 
Fair point, and probably no time like the present IMHO.

Perhaps this effort, being non-releng specific, should move over to
the infrastructure list.  But regardless, to do this properly we need
to agree how we can track container content against security or other
critical issues.  The idea shouldn't be to roll up a container, fire
and forget.

Also, containerizing this app might be orthogonal to other
considerations like data storage.  I think Cantas uses MongoDB, but
I'm not sure who if anyone has looked at how to provide that service.
Presumably we would want that separated from the app as usual.

-- 
Paul W. Frields                                http://paul.frields.org/
  gpg fingerprint: 3DA6 A0AC 6D58 FEC4 0233  5906 ACDB C937 BD11 3717
  http://redhat.com/   -  -  -  -   http://pfrields.fedorapeople.org/
    The open source story continues to grow: http://opensource.com

[Adam Miller]

On Mon, Apr 27, 2015 at 11:48 AM, Josh Boyer <jwboyer(a)fedoraproject.org&gt; wrote:
>  On Mon, Apr 27, 2015 at 12:40 PM, Ralph Bean <rbean(a)redhat.com&gt;
> wrote:
> > On Mon, Apr 27, 2015 at 10:58:34AM -0400, Paul W. Frields wrote:
> >> On Fri, Apr 24, 2015 at 10:25:36AM -0600, Kevin Fenzi wrote:
> >> > On Fri, 24 Apr 2015 09:36:46 -0500
> >> > Adam Miller <maxamillion(a)fedoraproject.org&gt; wrote:
> >> > > My hope here is to introduce a new piece of infrastructure to fill
> >> > > this requirement that provides a kanban-style board of cards much like
> >> > > Trello[2] but using a FOSS solution that we can host ourselves. For
> >> > > this I'd like to propose the use of Cantas[3]. (This part would
> likely
> >> > > need a request sent to Fedora Infrastructure team unless we're
> fine
> >> > > just hosting it somewhere like OpenShift Online).
> >> > >
> >> > > Questions, comments and general snide remarks welcome! :)
> >> >
> >> > As mentioned in a followup, it would need to get packaged up, etc if we
> >> > want to host one.
> >>
> >> I suggested to David Gay (oddshocks) that he look at this for
> >> packaging.
> >
> > It looks like there are nodejs issues in the rawhide buildroot that
> > will block packaging efforts here for the time being:
> > https://lists.fedoraproject.org/pipermail/nodejs/2015-April/000176.html
>
>  So, in one of my many discussions with Paul last week, we were talking
>  about containers, how we're approaching them in Fedora, etc.  One of
>  the ideas was that we should probably look at dogfooding container
>  technology within Fedora itself to become more comfortable with it.
>
>  I know we like things to be packaged in Fedora and there is nothing
>  wrong with that.  However, deploying Cantas via a container would seem
>  to be an ideal thing to try as an initial dogfooding effort.  It would
>  let both rel-eng and Infra get used to the technologies while also
>  providing a valuable service to themselves.  What do people think of
>  that idea? 
I'm open to the idea, I've been messing with containers for quite some
time during my stint on the OpenShift Online team and would welcome
bringing this technology into the rel-eng and infrastructure
wheelhouse.

Also note, container building is another topic I'd like to bring up in
terms of koji at some point (either something that gets added to
current gen via some sort of patching/refactor or something that's
taken into consideration for next-gen koji), but that's easily a
larger topic for another thread. There's a lot of interesting
development being done in this space in various upstream locations to
handle layered image dependency chains, squashing of images for space
savings, automatic detection of layers needing rebuilds for security
updates, and all sorts of other topics.

tl;dr - +1 from me for containerizing, but I think that is a longer
conversation than, "just slap it in docker and go"

-AdamM

>  josh
>  _______________________________________________
>  rel-eng mailing list
>  rel-eng(a)lists.fedoraproject.org
>  https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/rel-eng

[David Gay]

----- Original Message -----
>  From: "Adam Miller" <maxamillion(a)fedoraproject.org&gt;
>  To: rel-eng(a)lists.fedoraproject.org, oddshocks(a)fedoraproject.org
>  Sent: Monday, April 27, 2015 11:55:31 AM
>  Subject: Re: RFC: Proposal for Rel-Eng project management/planning
>  
>  On Mon, Apr 27, 2015 at 11:48 AM, Josh Boyer <jwboyer(a)fedoraproject.org&gt;
>  wrote:
>  > On Mon, Apr 27, 2015 at 12:40 PM, Ralph Bean <rbean(a)redhat.com&gt; wrote:
>  >> On Mon, Apr 27, 2015 at 10:58:34AM -0400, Paul W. Frields wrote:
>  >>> On Fri, Apr 24, 2015 at 10:25:36AM -0600, Kevin Fenzi wrote:
>  >>> > On Fri, 24 Apr 2015 09:36:46 -0500
>  >>> > Adam Miller <maxamillion(a)fedoraproject.org&gt; wrote:
>  >>> > > My hope here is to introduce a new piece of infrastructure to
> fill
>  >>> > > this requirement that provides a kanban-style board of cards much
>  >>> > > like
>  >>> > > Trello[2] but using a FOSS solution that we can host ourselves.
> For
>  >>> > > this I'd like to propose the use of Cantas[3]. (This part
> would
>  >>> > > likely
>  >>> > > need a request sent to Fedora Infrastructure team unless we're
> fine
>  >>> > > just hosting it somewhere like OpenShift Online).
>  >>> > >
>  >>> > > Questions, comments and general snide remarks welcome! :)
>  >>> >
>  >>> > As mentioned in a followup, it would need to get packaged up, etc if
> we
>  >>> > want to host one.
>  >>>
>  >>> I suggested to David Gay (oddshocks) that he look at this for
>  >>> packaging.
>  >>
>  >> It looks like there are nodejs issues in the rawhide buildroot that
>  >> will block packaging efforts here for the time being:
>  >> https://lists.fedoraproject.org/pipermail/nodejs/2015-April/000176.html
>  >
>  > So, in one of my many discussions with Paul last week, we were talking
>  > about containers, how we're approaching them in Fedora, etc.  One of
>  > the ideas was that we should probably look at dogfooding container
>  > technology within Fedora itself to become more comfortable with it.
>  >
>  > I know we like things to be packaged in Fedora and there is nothing
>  > wrong with that.  However, deploying Cantas via a container would seem
>  > to be an ideal thing to try as an initial dogfooding effort.  It would
>  > let both rel-eng and Infra get used to the technologies while also
>  > providing a valuable service to themselves.  What do people think of
>  > that idea?
>  
>  I'm open to the idea, I've been messing with containers for quite some
>  time during my stint on the OpenShift Online team and would welcome
>  bringing this technology into the rel-eng and infrastructure
>  wheelhouse.
>  
>  Also note, container building is another topic I'd like to bring up in
>  terms of koji at some point (either something that gets added to
>  current gen via some sort of patching/refactor or something that's
>  taken into consideration for next-gen koji), but that's easily a
>  larger topic for another thread. There's a lot of interesting
>  development being done in this space in various upstream locations to
>  handle layered image dependency chains, squashing of images for space
>  savings, automatic detection of layers needing rebuilds for security
>  updates, and all sorts of other topics.
>  
>  tl;dr - +1 from me for containerizing, but I think that is a longer
>  conversation than, "just slap it in docker and go"
>  
>  -AdamM
>  
>  > josh
>  > _______________________________________________
>  > rel-eng mailing list
>  > rel-eng(a)lists.fedoraproject.org
>  > https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/rel-eng
>   
Like Paul said, I'm happy to work on packaging Cantas. However, I don't have any
experience with creating containers.

-- David

[Paul W. Frields]

On Tue, Apr 28, 2015 at 11:49:35AM -0400, David Gay wrote:
>  ----- Original Message -----
>  > From: "Adam Miller" <maxamillion(a)fedoraproject.org&gt;
>  > To: rel-eng(a)lists.fedoraproject.org, oddshocks(a)fedoraproject.org
>  > Sent: Monday, April 27, 2015 11:55:31 AM
>  > Subject: Re: RFC: Proposal for Rel-Eng project management/planning
>  > 
>  > On Mon, Apr 27, 2015 at 11:48 AM, Josh Boyer <jwboyer(a)fedoraproject.org&gt;
>  > wrote:
>  > > On Mon, Apr 27, 2015 at 12:40 PM, Ralph Bean <rbean(a)redhat.com&gt; wrote:
>  > >> On Mon, Apr 27, 2015 at 10:58:34AM -0400, Paul W. Frields wrote:
>  > >>> On Fri, Apr 24, 2015 at 10:25:36AM -0600, Kevin Fenzi wrote:
>  > >>> > On Fri, 24 Apr 2015 09:36:46 -0500
>  > >>> > Adam Miller <maxamillion(a)fedoraproject.org&gt; wrote:
>  > >>> > > My hope here is to introduce a new piece of infrastructure to
> fill
>  > >>> > > this requirement that provides a kanban-style board of cards
> much
>  > >>> > > like
>  > >>> > > Trello[2] but using a FOSS solution that we can host
> ourselves. For
>  > >>> > > this I'd like to propose the use of Cantas[3]. (This part
> would
>  > >>> > > likely
>  > >>> > > need a request sent to Fedora Infrastructure team unless
> we're fine
>  > >>> > > just hosting it somewhere like OpenShift Online).
>  > >>> > >
>  > >>> > > Questions, comments and general snide remarks welcome! :)
>  > >>> >
>  > >>> > As mentioned in a followup, it would need to get packaged up, etc
> if we
>  > >>> > want to host one.
>  > >>>
>  > >>> I suggested to David Gay (oddshocks) that he look at this for
>  > >>> packaging.
>  > >>
>  > >> It looks like there are nodejs issues in the rawhide buildroot that
>  > >> will block packaging efforts here for the time being:
>  > >> https://lists.fedoraproject.org/pipermail/nodejs/2015-April/000176.html
>  > >
>  > > So, in one of my many discussions with Paul last week, we were talking
>  > > about containers, how we're approaching them in Fedora, etc.  One of
>  > > the ideas was that we should probably look at dogfooding container
>  > > technology within Fedora itself to become more comfortable with it.
>  > >
>  > > I know we like things to be packaged in Fedora and there is nothing
>  > > wrong with that.  However, deploying Cantas via a container would seem
>  > > to be an ideal thing to try as an initial dogfooding effort.  It would
>  > > let both rel-eng and Infra get used to the technologies while also
>  > > providing a valuable service to themselves.  What do people think of
>  > > that idea?
>  > 
>  > I'm open to the idea, I've been messing with containers for quite some
>  > time during my stint on the OpenShift Online team and would welcome
>  > bringing this technology into the rel-eng and infrastructure
>  > wheelhouse.
>  > 
>  > Also note, container building is another topic I'd like to bring up in
>  > terms of koji at some point (either something that gets added to
>  > current gen via some sort of patching/refactor or something that's
>  > taken into consideration for next-gen koji), but that's easily a
>  > larger topic for another thread. There's a lot of interesting
>  > development being done in this space in various upstream locations to
>  > handle layered image dependency chains, squashing of images for space
>  > savings, automatic detection of layers needing rebuilds for security
>  > updates, and all sorts of other topics.
>  > 
>  > tl;dr - +1 from me for containerizing, but I think that is a longer
>  > conversation than, "just slap it in docker and go"
>  
>  Like Paul said, I'm happy to work on packaging Cantas. However, I
>  don't have any experience with creating containers. 
I agree with Adam, this is more than a fire-and-forget problem.  Kevin
Fenzi and I were talking about this yesterday.  He's going to schedule
a time when we can hold a brainstorming session on the issues with
getting containers into infrastructure, so we can start moving this
forward.

-- 
Paul W. Frields                                http://paul.frields.org/
  gpg fingerprint: 3DA6 A0AC 6D58 FEC4 0233  5906 ACDB C937 BD11 3717
  http://redhat.com/   -  -  -  -   http://pfrields.fedorapeople.org/
    The open source story continues to grow: http://opensource.com

[Ralph Bean]

On Mon, Apr 27, 2015 at 12:48:24PM -0400, Josh Boyer wrote:
>  On Mon, Apr 27, 2015 at 12:40 PM, Ralph Bean <rbean(a)redhat.com&gt;
> wrote:
>  > On Mon, Apr 27, 2015 at 10:58:34AM -0400, Paul W. Frields wrote:
>  >> On Fri, Apr 24, 2015 at 10:25:36AM -0600, Kevin Fenzi wrote:
>  >> > On Fri, 24 Apr 2015 09:36:46 -0500
>  >> > Adam Miller <maxamillion(a)fedoraproject.org&gt; wrote:
>  >> > > My hope here is to introduce a new piece of infrastructure to fill
>  >> > > this requirement that provides a kanban-style board of cards much
> like
>  >> > > Trello[2] but using a FOSS solution that we can host ourselves. For
>  >> > > this I'd like to propose the use of Cantas[3]. (This part would
> likely
>  >> > > need a request sent to Fedora Infrastructure team unless we're
> fine
>  >> > > just hosting it somewhere like OpenShift Online).
>  >> > >
>  >> > > Questions, comments and general snide remarks welcome! :)
>  >> >
>  >> > As mentioned in a followup, it would need to get packaged up, etc if we
>  >> > want to host one.
>  >>
>  >> I suggested to David Gay (oddshocks) that he look at this for
>  >> packaging.
>  >
>  > It looks like there are nodejs issues in the rawhide buildroot that
>  > will block packaging efforts here for the time being:
>  > https://lists.fedoraproject.org/pipermail/nodejs/2015-April/000176.html
>  
>  So, in one of my many discussions with Paul last week, we were talking
>  about containers, how we're approaching them in Fedora, etc.  One of
>  the ideas was that we should probably look at dogfooding container
>  technology within Fedora itself to become more comfortable with it. 
+1 to the spirit.  Talking more fully about the details of what this
would mean at flock would be a good target.  If some of the Fedora
Engineering team members could get some more experience with the
pieces before then so we can have a more fully-informed discussion,
that would be best (I'm just operating on hearsay at this point).

>  I know we like things to be packaged in Fedora and there is nothing
>  wrong with that.  However, deploying Cantas via a container would seem
>  to be an ideal thing to try as an initial dogfooding effort.  It would
>  let both rel-eng and Infra get used to the technologies while also
>  providing a valuable service to themselves.  What do people think of
>  that idea? 
Pierre and I started this same discussion on the side at PyCon.  Our
policy has been that all of our apps have to be packaged as rpms for
Fedora and therefore must meet all the packaging guidelines.  This
historically made a lot of sense even when it was an inconvenience:
Fedora Infrastructure should dogfood Fedora Development. When we
started getting into unbundling css/js assets the past few years, this
quickly became intractable.  I've been trying to package up bootstrap
css for about a year now and there's no end in sight.

... but there are a hundred and one more angles to consider about how
we deploy our apps in Infrastructure.NEXT.

[Paul W. Frields]

On Mon, Apr 27, 2015 at 03:04:51PM -0400, Ralph Bean wrote:
>  On Mon, Apr 27, 2015 at 12:48:24PM -0400, Josh Boyer wrote:
>  > So, in one of my many discussions with Paul last week, we were talking
>  > about containers, how we're approaching them in Fedora, etc.  One of
>  > the ideas was that we should probably look at dogfooding container
>  > technology within Fedora itself to become more comfortable with it.
>  
>  +1 to the spirit.  Talking more fully about the details of what this
>  would mean at flock would be a good target.  If some of the Fedora
>  Engineering team members could get some more experience with the
>  pieces before then so we can have a more fully-informed discussion,
>  that would be best (I'm just operating on hearsay at this point).
>  
>  > I know we like things to be packaged in Fedora and there is nothing
>  > wrong with that.  However, deploying Cantas via a container would seem
>  > to be an ideal thing to try as an initial dogfooding effort.  It would
>  > let both rel-eng and Infra get used to the technologies while also
>  > providing a valuable service to themselves.  What do people think of
>  > that idea?
>  
>  Pierre and I started this same discussion on the side at PyCon.  Our
>  policy has been that all of our apps have to be packaged as rpms for
>  Fedora and therefore must meet all the packaging guidelines.  This
>  historically made a lot of sense even when it was an inconvenience:
>  Fedora Infrastructure should dogfood Fedora Development. When we
>  started getting into unbundling css/js assets the past few years, this
>  quickly became intractable.  I've been trying to package up bootstrap
>  css for about a year now and there's no end in sight.
>  
>  ... but there are a hundred and one more angles to consider about how
>  we deploy our apps in Infrastructure.NEXT. 
It's not just that it's a nearly intractable problem as in your
example -- it's rarely a worthwhile problem to solve in the example of
general contributors.  I found that out first hand working on our
Drupal packaging.  (Similar to Joe's example of Wordpress, actually.)

I think we should try to make progress on this before Flock, which is
almost four months away.

-- 
Paul W. Frields                                http://paul.frields.org/
  gpg fingerprint: 3DA6 A0AC 6D58 FEC4 0233  5906 ACDB C937 BD11 3717
  http://redhat.com/   -  -  -  -   http://pfrields.fedorapeople.org/
    The open source story continues to grow: http://opensource.com

[Kevin Fenzi]

On Mon, 27 Apr 2015 10:58:34 -0400
"Paul W. Frields" <stickster(a)gmail.com&gt; wrote:

>  On Fri, Apr 24, 2015 at 10:25:36AM -0600, Kevin Fenzi wrote:
>  > On Fri, 24 Apr 2015 09:36:46 -0500
>  > Adam Miller <maxamillion(a)fedoraproject.org&gt; wrote:
>  > 
>  > > Hello all,
>  > >     Hot off the heals of my email to start a conversation about
>  > > what all it's going to take to get the Fedora Rel-Eng Staging
>  > > environment up and running again[0] I wanted to make a proposal
>  > > for a new way to manage projects that can be broken down into
>  > > small consumable "units of work" much in line with kanban[1].
>  > 
>  > Note that many of these topics would be good for a meeting/more
>  > interactive discussion, IMHO. ;) 
>  
>  Good point.  Sounds like we should pull one together -- at least with
>  Adam (obviously), reps from rel-eng, infrastructure, apps side, and a
>  program manager if possible.  I think Matthew would likely also want
>  to attend; I definitely would.
>  
>  Do we have enough interest that I should set up a whenisgood for this? 
well, I was just suggesting a releng meeting. Are they at a time where
all those people would be unable to attend?

>  If we're talking about rel-eng stuff, it seems like a good idea
> to use
>  that Trac for visibility rather than a separate one.  Maybe a new
>  component is needed?  Don't want to get bikesheddy here, just trying
>  to avoid a disconnect. 
Sure. I again personally don't care, as long as the people doing the
work are happy with something. 

>  We just had a new addition to our kernel team who is dogfooding that
>  team's wiki information to find out what we need to fix for
>  contributors.  Seems like this is somewhat an opportunity for the
>  same?
>  
>  Having team and workflow details out of date on the wiki, and having
>  few contributors, are sort of a "vicious cycle" problem.  Breaking the
>  cycle with some better docs is a great idea. 
Absolutely. 

kevin

[Paul W. Frields]

On Mon, Apr 27, 2015 at 11:00:18AM -0600, Kevin Fenzi wrote:
>  On Mon, 27 Apr 2015 10:58:34 -0400
>  "Paul W. Frields" <stickster(a)gmail.com&gt; wrote:
>  
>  > On Fri, Apr 24, 2015 at 10:25:36AM -0600, Kevin Fenzi wrote:
>  > > On Fri, 24 Apr 2015 09:36:46 -0500
>  > > Adam Miller <maxamillion(a)fedoraproject.org&gt; wrote:
>  > > 
>  > > > Hello all,
>  > > >     Hot off the heals of my email to start a conversation about
>  > > > what all it's going to take to get the Fedora Rel-Eng Staging
>  > > > environment up and running again[0] I wanted to make a proposal
>  > > > for a new way to manage projects that can be broken down into
>  > > > small consumable "units of work" much in line with kanban[1].
>  > > 
>  > > Note that many of these topics would be good for a meeting/more
>  > > interactive discussion, IMHO. ;) 
>  > 
>  > Good point.  Sounds like we should pull one together -- at least with
>  > Adam (obviously), reps from rel-eng, infrastructure, apps side, and a
>  > program manager if possible.  I think Matthew would likely also want
>  > to attend; I definitely would.
>  > 
>  > Do we have enough interest that I should set up a whenisgood for this?
>  
>  well, I was just suggesting a releng meeting. Are they at a time where
>  all those people would be unable to attend? 
I think those are Monday 1530 UTC.  I usually can't attend then, but
if we have to use that timeslot, I'd be willing to catch up later.

There are a lot of tickets handled in the general rel-eng meeting,
though.  I don't want to short that work.  At the same time, this is
an absolutely critical topic, so it'd be worth deferring non-critical
tickets in favor of having the conversation at the top of the meeting.

-- 
Paul W. Frields                                http://paul.frields.org/
  gpg fingerprint: 3DA6 A0AC 6D58 FEC4 0233  5906 ACDB C937 BD11 3717
  http://redhat.com/   -  -  -  -   http://pfrields.fedorapeople.org/
    The open source story continues to grow: http://opensource.com