Ongoing Fedora website revamp - FEEDBACK needed!

[Peter Boy]

After a longer time of preparations the work on the website-revamp is starting now. The
first session is Wednesday 27.

In a first step will rebuild the Fedora landing page (fedoraproject.org) and the download
page (getfedora.org).

See: https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Websites/Fedora_Website_Revamp

Currently the Fedora landing page is simple a redirect on the download page. In the future
the landing page will be the main page with central information about Fedora and a
download link to the download page.

For the design and content of the main page Máirín Duffy made a proposal.
https://discussion.fedoraproject.org/t/a-new-conceptual-model-for-fedora/... 

Her proposal is "meant to represent 'the story' of Fedora and how you would
use it, and serve as a model from which we will build the narrative for Fedora and its web
presence.“

In this model Fedora is 

- either a desktop user using Silverblue
- or a Web/App Developer using local container based development or Fedora CoreOs
remotely,
- or an IoT Developer using IoT device

IMHO that story is a bit short. Nevertheless, I need feedback what members of or working
group are expecting from the central Fedora website and the Download page.

[Peter Boy]

Hullo! 

No one with wishes or ideas for presenting Fedora Server on the Fedora websites?
Astonishing.

Here is a link to details of the discussion coming up tomorrow:
https://drive.google.com/file/d/1NT5i0rZVnRJGtqYSCETKzv46o5AAfeQF/view?us... 


Best
Peter



>  Am 24.10.2021 um 00:28 schrieb Peter Boy <pboy(a)uni-bremen.de&gt;:
>  
>  After a longer time of preparations the work on the website-revamp is starting now. The
> first session is Wednesday 27.
>  
>  In a first step will rebuild the Fedora landing page (fedoraproject.org) and the download
> page (getfedora.org).
>  
>  See: https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Websites/Fedora_Website_Revamp
>  
>  Currently the Fedora landing page is simple a redirect on the download page. In the
> future the landing page will be the main page with central information about Fedora and a
> download link to the download page.
>  
>  For the design and content of the main page Máirín Duffy made a proposal.
>  https://discussion.fedoraproject.org/t/a-new-conceptual-model-for-fedora/... 
>  
>  Her proposal is "meant to represent 'the story' of Fedora and how you would
> use it, and serve as a model from which we will build the narrative for Fedora and its web
> presence.“
>  
>  In this model Fedora is 
>  
>  - either a desktop user using Silverblue
>  - or a Web/App Developer using local container based development or Fedora CoreOs
> remotely,
>  - or an IoT Developer using IoT device
>  
>  IMHO that story is a bit short. Nevertheless, I need feedback what members of or working
> group are expecting from the central Fedora website and the Download page.
>  
>  
>  
>  
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[David Kaufmann]

Hi!

On Tue, Oct 26, 2021 at 03:00:41PM +0200, Peter Boy wrote:
>  No one with wishes or ideas for presenting Fedora Server on the
> Fedora
>  websites? Astonishing. 
I don't care a lot about how the website look, as long as the download
link is easily reachable.

I know that no website developer likes to hear that, but I've actually
looked at the website for the first time today. Usually I open the page,
scan for the download link, and I'm gone again, not reading any of the
texts inbetween.

But the reason I visit that page is an continues to be to download an
image, so a concatenated list of download links would probably suffice
for me as a page.

All the best,
Astra

[Peter Boy]

Hi Astra,

thanks for your feedback. I think that is a typical view of us using Server quite a time
and being familiar with it. 

And still I would like to have a page where the important links are available in a
concentrated way.

So, instead of a Download page with just the links to iso files I would like to have a
„product page“ including links to download files as well as to documentation, how to
contact, etc. 

Another goal is to make it easier for user / admins to get relevant information, in
general about Fedora and specifically about Fedora Server.

And additional goal is to get new users. One way may be a rotating "user story"
on the landing page about the different Fedora editions, including Server. Maybe the
landing page could be designed according to the user's interest, e.g. "for
experienced Fedorians" and "new to Fedora? 

These are some ideas.


Thanks
Peter





>  Am 26.10.2021 um 15:43 schrieb David Kaufmann
> <astra(a)ionic.at&gt;:
>  
>  Hi!
>  
>  On Tue, Oct 26, 2021 at 03:00:41PM +0200, Peter Boy wrote:
> > No one with wishes or ideas for presenting Fedora Server on the Fedora
> > websites? Astonishing.
>  
>  I don't care a lot about how the website look, as long as the download
>  link is easily reachable.
>  
>  I know that no website developer likes to hear that, but I've actually
>  looked at the website for the first time today. Usually I open the page,
>  scan for the download link, and I'm gone again, not reading any of the
>  texts inbetween.
>  
>  But the reason I visit that page is an continues to be to download an
>  image, so a concatenated list of download links would probably suffice
>  for me as a page.
>  
>  All the best,
>  Astra

[David Kaufmann]

Hi!

On Tue, Oct 26, 2021 at 10:45:55PM +0200, Peter Boy wrote:
>  […] e.g. "for experienced Fedorians" and "new to
> Fedora?" 
In that case I've probably never been "new to Fedora" - at the point I
first landed on that page was probably when searching for something like
"fedora download" and I've been in the
"looking-for-download-link"-mode
even then.

I also used debian for a bit longer than fedora (debian since approx. 15
years, fedora since approx. 8 years), so I opened the debian start page
today and I don't remember seeing that ever.
Searching for "debian download" also directly brings me to
https://www.debian.org/distrib/ , so I already always landed on the page
I was looking for.

What I want to say with this: If someone reaches the fedora page they
either already know what they want or they probably won't have much use
for install images anyway.
Everyone I know who uses fedora has gotten a recommendation from a
colleague and a short verbal explanation already on how to replace an
operating system and where to get the necessary files, usually then also
assistance for the first steps in the installed system.

If someone attempts to do it by themselves completely for the first
time, there is a howto with screenshots probably necessary.

For all three "first install"-options I don't think that a "product
presentation" page could be useful, maybe for tech journalists reporting
on "new version released" or so.

A quick search for howtos returns:
1. a step-by-step manual on livewire.com,
2. getfedora.org without any easily findable instructions,
3. docs.fedoraproject.org with the install guide on rawhide

The first howto is quite nice, but the "Installation Guide" on
docs.fedoraproject.org starts with a big legal blob and nothing else.
If users find the "Installing Fedora" in the menu only the arrow can be
clicked, not the text itself (this probably can be improved easily)
I'd say that the "Installation Guide" should directly show the content
of "Preparing for Installation" and hide the rest in something like
"Detailed Instructions".
"Preparing for Installation" has all necessary information to get to a
bootable USB-Drive and from that point on the user is in Anaconda
anyway, and most steps in there are quite well explained or don't need
much explanation.

This escalated a bit more than planned, and most of it doesn't concern
getfedora.org anyway, but maybe this is useful nonetheless.

All the best,
Astra

[Matthew Miller]

On Wed, Oct 27, 2021 at 01:49:09AM +0200, David Kaufmann wrote:
>  This escalated a bit more than planned, and most of it doesn't
> concern
>  getfedora.org anyway, but maybe this is useful nonetheless. 
Yeah, I think it's definitely useful. What I'm hearing is:

* sysadmin / ops folks looking for Fedora Server are probably going to most
  appreciate a no-nonsense approach to getting images and getting working,
  without a bunch of apparent marketing fluff.

As a former sysadmin, this definitely makes sense. I do think we need some
place to clearly articulate "why Fedora Server?" — including, I think, how
to get involved in this SIG to make a difference.

I'm quoting out of order here, but:

>  Everyone I know who uses fedora has gotten a recommendation from a
>  colleague and a short verbal explanation already on how to replace an
>  operating system and where to get the necessary files, usually then also
>  assistance for the first steps in the installed system. 
... unless we can get _every colleage in the world_ to recommend Fedora
Server and do these first steps, we need some kind of stand-in where those
other colleages are for some inexplicable reason failing. :) How can we do
this, without getting in the way of the above?

-- 
Matthew Miller
<mattdm(a)fedoraproject.org&gt;
Fedora Project Leader

[Peter Smith]

Hi guys,

Agree with the points made. Making the links to the iso and other pages
(wiki, docs etc.) clear and easy to find should be the major priority. I'm
with the others that I've used linux a lot over the years, downloaded a ton
of distros to try out, and I don't remember any of their websites (with the
exception of Manjaro, but only because that made my homepage in Firefox the
Manjaro page and I never got round to changing it).

In terms of information about Fedora Server, I think all we need to aim for
is a small overview of why Fedora Server is a good product to try out. My
feeling is that most people who are going to run a server already are
pretty literate with the basics of linux and don't need their hand held.
Thus, the information on why to use Fedora server here
<https://docs.fedoraproject.org/en-US/fedora-server/> would make sense to
include. This sells the product to experienced people pretty well and I
think is accessible enough to people with a smallish background in servers
to get them interested.

I don't know if we need much more than this, and there is a case to be made
for having all this on one page.

@pboy: I can see the desire to have the contact information, how to get
involved, and the user story but I wonder whether this isn't information
that's already available elsewhere and makes more sense where it is.
There's already contact information on the server site. Putting it up in
multiple places simply means more places to update, and consequently more
places to *forget* when we update and a bigger chance of outdated and
conflicting information. Also, with the user story, perhaps the 'new to
Fedora' idea is going to be handled elsewhere on the website after the
upgrade. I understood from Máirín's proposal that this was the beginning
point of her F-model. I don't know how many people are going to use Fedora
server without first knowing Fedora generally, but at least some of this
can be covered by (a) the 'why Fedora' stuff linked above; and (b) a more
prominent presence in existing Fedora locations (e.g. the magazine).
TL;DR of the above: good ides, but haven't we already got places where this
information is? If so, we should consider the benefits of putting them
somewhere new before replicating them, or moving them to a new place.

All the best,
Pete

On Wed, 27 Oct 2021 at 05:12, Matthew Miller <mattdm(a)fedoraproject.org&gt;
wrote:

>  On Wed, Oct 27, 2021 at 01:49:09AM +0200, David Kaufmann wrote:
>  > This escalated a bit more than planned, and most of it doesn't concern
>  > getfedora.org anyway, but maybe this is useful nonetheless.
>
>  Yeah, I think it's definitely useful. What I'm hearing is:
>
>  * sysadmin / ops folks looking for Fedora Server are probably going to most
>    appreciate a no-nonsense approach to getting images and getting working,
>    without a bunch of apparent marketing fluff.
>
>  As a former sysadmin, this definitely makes sense. I do think we need some
>  place to clearly articulate "why Fedora Server?" — including, I think, how
>  to get involved in this SIG to make a difference.
>
>  I'm quoting out of order here, but:
>
>  > Everyone I know who uses fedora has gotten a recommendation from a
>  > colleague and a short verbal explanation already on how to replace an
>  > operating system and where to get the necessary files, usually then also
>  > assistance for the first steps in the installed system.
>
>  ... unless we can get _every colleage in the world_ to recommend Fedora
>  Server and do these first steps, we need some kind of stand-in where those
>  other colleages are for some inexplicable reason failing. :) How can we do
>  this, without getting in the way of the above?
>
>  --
>  Matthew Miller
>  <mattdm(a)fedoraproject.org&gt;
>  Fedora Project Leader
>  _______________________________________________
>  server mailing list -- server(a)lists.fedoraproject.org
>  To unsubscribe send an email to server-leave(a)lists.fedoraproject.org
>  Fedora Code of Conduct:
>  https://docs.fedoraproject.org/en-US/project/code-of-conduct/
>  List Guidelines: https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Mailing_list_guidelines
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>

[Jan K]

Data should be written only once, on the bottom of the page we can have small icons that
links to additional info, if not readily available on the front page.

Small steps at a time.
Jan (FAS copperi)

________________________________
From: Peter Smith <peter.w.smith16(a)gmail.com&gt;
Sent: Wednesday, October 27, 2021 8:19 AM
To: server(a)lists.fedoraproject.org <server(a)lists.fedoraproject.org&gt;
Subject: Re: Ongoing Fedora website revamp - FEEDBACK needed!

Hi guys,

Agree with the points made. Making the links to the iso and other pages (wiki, docs etc.)
clear and easy to find should be the major priority. I'm with the others that I've
used linux a lot over the years, downloaded a ton of distros to try out, and I don't
remember any of their websites (with the exception of Manjaro, but only because that made
my homepage in Firefox the Manjaro page and I never got round to changing it).

In terms of information about Fedora Server, I think all we need to aim for is a small
overview of why Fedora Server is a good product to try out. My feeling is that most people
who are going to run a server already are pretty literate with the basics of linux and
don't need their hand held. Thus, the information on why to use Fedora server
here<https://docs.fedoraproject.org/en-US/fedora-server/> would make sense to
include. This sells the product to experienced people pretty well and I think is
accessible enough to people with a smallish background in servers to get them interested.

I don't know if we need much more than this, and there is a case to be made for having
all this on one page.

@pboy: I can see the desire to have the contact information, how to get involved, and the
user story but I wonder whether this isn't information that's already available
elsewhere and makes more sense where it is. There's already contact information on the
server site. Putting it up in multiple places simply means more places to update, and
consequently more places to *forget* when we update and a bigger chance of outdated and
conflicting information. Also, with the user story, perhaps the 'new to Fedora'
idea is going to be handled elsewhere on the website after the upgrade. I understood from
Máirín's proposal that this was the beginning point of her F-model. I don't know
how many people are going to use Fedora server without first knowing Fedora generally, but
at least some of this can be covered by (a) the 'why Fedora' stuff linked above;
and (b) a more prominent presence in existing Fedora locations (e.g. the magazine).
TL;DR of the above: good ides, but haven't we already got places where this
information is? If so, we should consider the benefits of putting them somewhere new
before replicating them, or moving them to a new place.

All the best,
Pete

On Wed, 27 Oct 2021 at 05:12, Matthew Miller
<[e-mail]<mailto:[e-mail]>> wrote:
On Wed, Oct 27, 2021 at 01:49:09AM +0200, David Kaufmann wrote:
>  This escalated a bit more than planned, and most of it doesn't
> concern
>  getfedora.org<http://getfedora.org> anyway, but maybe this is useful nonetheless.
Yeah, I think it's definitely useful. What I'm hearing is:

* sysadmin / ops folks looking for Fedora Server are probably going to most
  appreciate a no-nonsense approach to getting images and getting working,
  without a bunch of apparent marketing fluff.

As a former sysadmin, this definitely makes sense. I do think we need some
place to clearly articulate "why Fedora Server?" — including, I think, how
to get involved in this SIG to make a difference.

I'm quoting out of order here, but:

>  Everyone I know who uses fedora has gotten a recommendation from a
>  colleague and a short verbal explanation already on how to replace an
>  operating system and where to get the necessary files, usually then also
>  assistance for the first steps in the installed system. 
... unless we can get _every colleage in the world_ to recommend Fedora
Server and do these first steps, we need some kind of stand-in where those
other colleages are for some inexplicable reason failing. :) How can we do
this, without getting in the way of the above?

--
Matthew Miller
<[e-mail]<mailto:[e-mail]>>
Fedora Project Leader
_______________________________________________
server mailing list --
[e-mail]<mailto:[e-mail]>
To unsubscribe send an email to
[e-mail]<mailto:[e-mail]>
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[Peter Boy]

Hi,

>  Am 27.10.2021 um 01:49 schrieb David Kaufmann
> <astra(a)ionic.at&gt;:
>  
>  Hi!
>  
>  On Tue, Oct 26, 2021 at 10:45:55PM +0200, Peter Boy wrote:
> > […] e.g. "for experienced Fedorians" and "new to Fedora?"
>  
>  In that case I've probably never been "new to Fedora" - at the point I
>  first landed on that page was probably when searching for something like
>  "fedora download" and I've been in the
> "looking-for-download-link"-mode
>  even then.
>  ...
>  What I want to say with this: If someone reaches the fedora page they
>  either already know what they want or they probably won't have much use
>  for install images anyway. 
I think your description is accurate. Therefore, the central landing page should address
different addressees, maybe experienced users, "part-time“ administrator,. and
interested/new users. For the former type a "big fat download" button. For the
latter, something like "new to Fedora" with a link to an informational/guidance
page.  And for all other information about ongoing activities, e.g. release party that is
currently nowhere to be found, upcoming changes to next release, (i.e. a short info with a
link / box with the latest 3 items and a link to detail page), etc. 

>  A quick search for howtos returns:
>  1. a step-by-step manual on livewire.com,
>  2. getfedora.org without any easily findable instructions,
>  3. docs.fedoraproject.org with the install guide on rawhide
>  
>  The first howto is quite nice, but the "Installation Guide" on
>  docs.fedoraproject.org starts with a big legal blob and nothing else.
>  If users find the "Installing Fedora" in the menu only the arrow can be
>  clicked, not the text itself (this probably can be improved easily)
>  I'd say that the "Installation Guide" should directly show the content
>  of "Preparing for Installation" and hide the rest in something like
>  "Detailed Instructions".
>  "Preparing for Installation" has all necessary information to get to a
>  bootable USB-Drive and from that point on the user is in Anaconda
>  anyway, and most steps in there are quite well explained or don't need
>  much explanation. 
I'm making a note of these ideas for Docs. I want to opt to work on Docs next (or
probably Docs is a project of its own). 

>  
>  Am 27.10.2021 um 05:11 schrieb Matthew Miller <mattdm(a)fedoraproject.org&gt;:
>  
>  
>  ... unless we can get _every colleage in the world_ to recommend Fedora
>  Server and do these first steps, we need some kind of stand-in where those
>  other colleages are for some inexplicable reason failing. :) How can we do
>  this, without getting in the way of the above? 
That’s the challenge, indeed. :-) 

> > Am 27.10.2021 um 07:19 schrieb Peter Smith
> <peter.w.smith16(a)gmail.com&gt;:
> > 
> > Hi guys,
> > ...
> > @pboy: I can see the desire to have the contact information, how to get involved, and
> the user story but I wonder whether this isn't information that's already
> available elsewhere and makes more sense where it is. 
Indeed, yes, but the problem, IMHO, resides in "elsewhere". This is all very
scattered and partly not easy to find (or can be found several times, but contradictory). 


> > There's already contact information on the server site.
> Putting it up in multiple places simply means more places to update, and consequently more
> places to *forget* when we update and a bigger chance of outdated and conflicting
> information. 
We have to keep that in mind. Most advanced CMS have the option to prepare some kind of
info boxes in one location and include them into various pages. So you edit it once and is
automatically published anywhere. I hope, Antorra offers such a feature as well.

> > TL;DR of the above: good ides, but haven't we already got
> places where this information is? If so, we should consider the benefits of putting them
> somewhere new before replicating them, or moving them to a new place. 
Yes, we have a lot of that already. But they are unlinked and buried deep in the Fedora
universe. A lot of the work could be putting everything into an easily accessible
structure.



Best
Peter

[Reon Beon]

Rawhide/betas would be nice too.