Re: [SSSD] [Freeipa-devel] Proposed changes to the HBAC grammar

[Stephen Gallagher]

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
Hash: SHA1

Breaking the thread intentionally to bring back focus.

With Adam's recent input, I've modified the grammar to what I hope will
be it's final form.

The complete grammar is available at
https://fedorahosted.org/sssd/wiki/HBAC_Grammar

The differences from my previous proposal (involving septets) is here:
https://fedorahosted.org/sssd/wiki/HBAC_Grammar?action=diff&version=3


The primary change is that instead of introducing the septet concept, we
will specify "day within a range". So the first Friday of the month
would be:

accessTime = periodic monthly on Fri between 1-7

Tuesdays for the second half of the month would be:
accessTime = periodic monthly on Tue between 15-31


I don't anticipate that last being very common, but it's now possible.

Please chime in if you have any further comments about the grammar, or
we will declare this final and move to adjusting the implementation next
week.

- -- 
Stephen Gallagher
RHCE 804006346421761

Delivering value year after year.
Red Hat ranks #1 in value among software vendors.
http://www.redhat.com/promo/vendor/
> -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
> Version: GnuPG v1.4.11 (GNU/Linux)
> Comment: Using GnuPG with Fedora - http://enigmail.mozdev.org/
>
> iEYEARECAAYFAkzm3qIACgkQeiVVYja6o6OgkgCeLQiHkFJCfgIPRAtmHdcN/iar
> mZEAn0+RuUCV9/8EepbqW/zdpQZqXD+z
> =+wsh
> -----END PGP SIGNATURE-----

[Freeipa-devel] Proposed changes to the HBAC grammar

[Simo Sorce]

On Fri, 19 Nov 2010 15:31:30 -0500
Stephen Gallagher <sgallagh(a)redhat.com&gt; wrote:

>  -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
>  Hash: SHA1
>  
>  Breaking the thread intentionally to bring back focus.
>  
>  With Adam's recent input, I've modified the grammar to what I hope
>  will be it's final form.
>  
>  The complete grammar is available at
>  https://fedorahosted.org/sssd/wiki/HBAC_Grammar
>  
>  The differences from my previous proposal (involving septets) is here:
>  https://fedorahosted.org/sssd/wiki/HBAC_Grammar?action=diff&version=3
>  
>  
>  The primary change is that instead of introducing the septet concept,
>  we will specify "day within a range". So the first Friday of the month
>  would be:
>  
>  accessTime = periodic monthly on Fri between 1-7
>  
>  Tuesdays for the second half of the month would be:
>  accessTime = periodic monthly on Tue between 15-31
>  
>  
>  I don't anticipate that last being very common, but it's now possible.
>  
>  Please chime in if you have any further comments about the grammar, or
>  we will declare this final and move to adjusting the implementation
>  next week. 
So we loose the possibility of saying: the last friday of the month ?

Simo.

-- 
Simo Sorce * Red Hat, Inc * New York

[Freeipa-devel] Proposed changes to the HBAC grammar

[Stephen Gallagher]

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
Hash: SHA1

On 11/19/2010 03:55 PM, Simo Sorce wrote:
>  On Fri, 19 Nov 2010 15:31:30 -0500
>  Stephen Gallagher <sgallagh(a)redhat.com&gt; wrote:
>  
> > -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
> > Hash: SHA1
> >
> > Breaking the thread intentionally to bring back focus.
> >
> > With Adam's recent input, I've modified the grammar to what I hope
> > will be it's final form.
> >
> > The complete grammar is available at
> > https://fedorahosted.org/sssd/wiki/HBAC_Grammar
> >
> > The differences from my previous proposal (involving septets) is here:
> > https://fedorahosted.org/sssd/wiki/HBAC_Grammar?action=diff&version=3
> >
> >
> > The primary change is that instead of introducing the septet concept,
> > we will specify "day within a range". So the first Friday of the month
> > would be:
> >
> > accessTime = periodic monthly on Fri between 1-7
> >
> > Tuesdays for the second half of the month would be:
> > accessTime = periodic monthly on Tue between 15-31
> >
> >
> > I don't anticipate that last being very common, but it's now possible.
> >
> > Please chime in if you have any further comments about the grammar, or
> > we will declare this final and move to adjusting the implementation
> > next week.
>  
>  So we loose the possibility of saying: the last friday of the month ? 

It's not impossible, it can still be done with this schema, though it's
somewhat more complicated.

You'd need to set it up as separate rules for each particular month.

- -- 
Stephen Gallagher
RHCE 804006346421761

Delivering value year after year.
Red Hat ranks #1 in value among software vendors.
http://www.redhat.com/promo/vendor/
> -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
> Version: GnuPG v1.4.11 (GNU/Linux)
> Comment: Using GnuPG with Fedora - http://enigmail.mozdev.org/
>
> iEYEARECAAYFAkzm5JcACgkQeiVVYja6o6Pv1wCeNLivqHkH4tbT0kPFboa/EnZx
> HTMAni0PdakTcad85YDMZ4NUmygZl9TW
> =ddmI
> -----END PGP SIGNATURE-----

[Freeipa-devel] Proposed changes to the HBAC grammar

[Endi Sukma Dewata]

On 11/19/2010 2:56 PM, Stephen Gallagher wrote:
> > So we loose the possibility of saying: the last friday of the
> month ?
>
>  It's not impossible, it can still be done with this schema, though it's
>  somewhat more complicated.
>
>  You'd need to set it up as separate rules for each particular month. 
How about this?
accessTime = periodic monthly on Friday between (last_day_of_month-6) to 
last_day_of_month

-- 
Endi S. Dewata

[Freeipa-devel] Proposed changes to the HBAC grammar

[Stephen Gallagher]

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
Hash: SHA1

On 11/19/2010 04:09 PM, Endi Sukma Dewata wrote:
>  On 11/19/2010 2:56 PM, Stephen Gallagher wrote:
> >> So we loose the possibility of saying: the last friday of the month ?
> >
> > It's not impossible, it can still be done with this schema, though it's
> > somewhat more complicated.
> >
> > You'd need to set it up as separate rules for each particular month.
>  
>  How about this?
>  accessTime = periodic monthly on Friday between (last_day_of_month-6) to
>  last_day_of_month
>   
Actually, I think this would be easier to handle:

accessTime = periodic monthly on Friday between -7 - -1

So we define negative day-of-the-month numbers as number of days from
the end of the month, with -1 being the last day of the month.


- -- 
Stephen Gallagher
RHCE 804006346421761

Delivering value year after year.
Red Hat ranks #1 in value among software vendors.
http://www.redhat.com/promo/vendor/
> -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
> Version: GnuPG v1.4.11 (GNU/Linux)
> Comment: Using GnuPG with Fedora - http://enigmail.mozdev.org/
>
> iEYEARECAAYFAkzqhtEACgkQeiVVYja6o6NxwACgk2f2OWfD8H9s+MK2RE6E73JF
> 5HMAnAi5fPZwSWEWx1UqE1Xv92zlBX8Z
> =dksU
> -----END PGP SIGNATURE-----

[Freeipa-devel] Proposed changes to the HBAC grammar

[Dmitri Pal]

Stephen Gallagher wrote:
>  Breaking the thread intentionally to bring back focus.
>
>  With Adam's recent input, I've modified the grammar to what I hope will
>  be it's final form.
>
>  The complete grammar is available at
>  https://fedorahosted.org/sssd/wiki/HBAC_Grammar
>
>  The differences from my previous proposal (involving septets) is here:
>  https://fedorahosted.org/sssd/wiki/HBAC_Grammar?action=diff&version=3
>
>
>  The primary change is that instead of introducing the septet concept, we
>  will specify "day within a range". So the first Friday of the month
>  would be:
>
>  accessTime = periodic monthly on Fri between 1-7
>
>  Tuesdays for the second half of the month would be:
>  accessTime = periodic monthly on Tue between 15-31
>
>
>  I don't anticipate that last being very common, but it's now possible.
>
>  Please chime in if you have any further comments about the grammar, or
>  we will declare this final and move to adjusting the implementation next
>  week.
>  
Why you are making it singular?
Why it can't be:
accessTime = periodic monthly on Tue, Thu between 15-31
or
accessTime = periodic monthly on Mon-Wed between 15-31
or
accessTime = periodic monthly on 1,2,3 between 15-31 <- meaning same as
above

It seems that "singular" in this case is an artificial limitation.
However I would also treat the last portion of the rule differently.
In stead of:

M-on = "on" WSP day-of-the-week-singular WSP "between" WSP
day-of-the-month-range
and
day-of-the-month-range = range 1-31

M-on = "on" WSP day-of-the-week WSP "during-7-day-set" WSP day-set
day-set = day-set-list / day-set-range
day-set-list =
"1-7","8-14","15-21","22-28","29+"
or alternatively
day-set-list = "1","2","3","4","5" <-
meaning first seven days, second seven days etc.
if we use this version them day-set-range can be just:
day-set-range = 1-5
otherwise it might be a bit more ugly.
If we now combine day set-list and day set range into one list range in the same way as we
allow in interval for days we would be able to express

accessTime = periodic monthly on Tue, Thu between 15-31

it will look like:

accessTime = periodic monthly on Tue, Thu during-7-day-set 2-3          
or
accessTime = periodic monthly on Tue, Thu during-7-day-set 2,3

as well as 
accessTime = periodic monthly on Tue, Thu during-7-day-set 1            <--- meaning
first Tue and Thu of the month

or

accessTime = periodic monthly on Tue, Thu during-7-day-set 1-5          <--- meaning
all Tue and Thu of the month


I would actually argue that we would be able to reuse the interval logic from the month
for this so it should not be more work than what has been proposed.


_______________________________________________
Freeipa-devel mailing list
Freeipa-devel(a)redhat.com
https://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/freeipa-devel




-- 
Thank you,
Dmitri Pal

Sr. Engineering Manager IPA project,
Red Hat Inc.


-------------------------------
Looking to carve out IT costs?
www.redhat.com/carveoutcosts/

[Freeipa-devel] Proposed changes to the HBAC grammar

[Dmitri Pal]

Dmitri Pal wrote:
>  Stephen Gallagher wrote:
>    
> > Breaking the thread intentionally to bring back focus.
> >
> > With Adam's recent input, I've modified the grammar to what I hope will
> > be it's final form.
> >
> > The complete grammar is available at
> > https://fedorahosted.org/sssd/wiki/HBAC_Grammar
> >
> > The differences from my previous proposal (involving septets) is here:
> > https://fedorahosted.org/sssd/wiki/HBAC_Grammar?action=diff&version=3
> >
> >
> > The primary change is that instead of introducing the septet concept, we
> > will specify "day within a range". So the first Friday of the month
> > would be:
> >
> > accessTime = periodic monthly on Fri between 1-7
> >
> > Tuesdays for the second half of the month would be:
> > accessTime = periodic monthly on Tue between 15-31
> >
> >
> > I don't anticipate that last being very common, but it's now possible.
> >
> > Please chime in if you have any further comments about the grammar, or
> > we will declare this final and move to adjusting the implementation next
> > week.
> >
> >     
>  Why you are making it singular?
>  Why it can't be:
>  accessTime = periodic monthly on Tue, Thu between 15-31
>  or
>  accessTime = periodic monthly on Mon-Wed between 15-31
>  or
>  accessTime = periodic monthly on 1,2,3 between 15-31 <- meaning same as
>  above
>
>  It seems that "singular" in this case is an artificial limitation.
>  However I would also treat the last portion of the rule differently.
>  In stead of:
>
>  M-on = "on" WSP day-of-the-week-singular WSP "between" WSP
> day-of-the-month-range
>  and
>  day-of-the-month-range = range 1-31
>
>  M-on = "on" WSP day-of-the-week WSP "during-7-day-set" WSP day-set
>  day-set = day-set-list / day-set-range
>  day-set-list =
> "1-7","8-14","15-21","22-28","29+"
>  or alternatively
>  day-set-list = "1","2","3","4","5"
> <- meaning first seven days, second seven days etc.
>  if we use this version them day-set-range can be just:
>  day-set-range = 1-5
>  otherwise it might be a bit more ugly.
>  If we now combine day set-list and day set range into one list range in the same way as
> we allow in interval for days we would be able to express
>
>  accessTime = periodic monthly on Tue, Thu between 15-31
>
>  it will look like:
>
>  accessTime = periodic monthly on Tue, Thu during-7-day-set 2-3          
>  or
>  accessTime = periodic monthly on Tue, Thu during-7-day-set 2,3
>
>  as well as 
>  accessTime = periodic monthly on Tue, Thu during-7-day-set 1            <--- meaning
> first Tue and Thu of the month
>
>  or
>
>  accessTime = periodic monthly on Tue, Thu during-7-day-set 1-5          <--- meaning
> all Tue and Thu of the month
>
>
>  I would actually argue that we would be able to reuse the interval logic from the month
> for this so it should not be more work than what has been proposed.
>
>
>  _______________________________________________
>  Freeipa-devel mailing list
>  Freeipa-devel(a)redhat.com
>  https://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/freeipa-devel
>
>
>
>
>     
This does not accommodate for the "last X of the month"

so it can be modified like this:

day-set-range 1-5 / "last"



-- 
Thank you,
Dmitri Pal

Sr. Engineering Manager IPA project,
Red Hat Inc.


-------------------------------
Looking to carve out IT costs?
www.redhat.com/carveoutcosts/

[Freeipa-devel] Proposed changes to the HBAC grammar

[Stephen Gallagher]

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
Hash: SHA1

On 11/19/2010 04:09 PM, Dmitri Pal wrote:
>  Stephen Gallagher wrote:
> > Breaking the thread intentionally to bring back focus.
> >
> > With Adam's recent input, I've modified the grammar to what I hope will
> > be it's final form.
> >
> > The complete grammar is available at
> > https://fedorahosted.org/sssd/wiki/HBAC_Grammar
> >
> > The differences from my previous proposal (involving septets) is here:
> > https://fedorahosted.org/sssd/wiki/HBAC_Grammar?action=diff&version=3
> >
> >
> > The primary change is that instead of introducing the septet concept, we
> > will specify "day within a range". So the first Friday of the month
> > would be:
> >
> > accessTime = periodic monthly on Fri between 1-7
> >
> > Tuesdays for the second half of the month would be:
> > accessTime = periodic monthly on Tue between 15-31
> >
> >
> > I don't anticipate that last being very common, but it's now possible.
> >
> > Please chime in if you have any further comments about the grammar, or
> > we will declare this final and move to adjusting the implementation next
> > week.
> >
>  Why you are making it singular?
>  Why it can't be:
>  accessTime = periodic monthly on Tue, Thu between 15-31
>  or
>  accessTime = periodic monthly on Mon-Wed between 15-31
>  or
>  accessTime = periodic monthly on 1,2,3 between 15-31 <- meaning same as
>  above
>  
>  It seems that "singular" in this case is an artificial limitation. 
I'll agree with this. We can remove the "singular" limitation.


>  However I would also treat the last portion of the rule differently.
>  In stead of:
>  
>  M-on = "on" WSP day-of-the-week-singular WSP "between" WSP
> day-of-the-month-range
>  and
>  day-of-the-month-range = range 1-31
>  
>  M-on = "on" WSP day-of-the-week WSP "during-7-day-set" WSP day-set
>  day-set = day-set-list / day-set-range
>  day-set-list =
> "1-7","8-14","15-21","22-28","29+"
>  or alternatively
>  day-set-list = "1","2","3","4","5"
> <- meaning first seven days, second seven days etc.
>  if we use this version them day-set-range can be just:
>  day-set-range = 1-5
>  otherwise it might be a bit more ugly.
>  If we now combine day set-list and day set range into one list range in the same way as
> we allow in interval for days we would be able to express
>  
>  accessTime = periodic monthly on Tue, Thu between 15-31
>  
>  it will look like:
>  
>  accessTime = periodic monthly on Tue, Thu during-7-day-set 2-3          
>  or
>  accessTime = periodic monthly on Tue, Thu during-7-day-set 2,3
>  
>  as well as 
>  accessTime = periodic monthly on Tue, Thu during-7-day-set 1            <--- meaning
> first Tue and Thu of the month
>  
>  or
>  
>  accessTime = periodic monthly on Tue, Thu during-7-day-set 1-5          <--- meaning
> all Tue and Thu of the month
>  
>  
>  I would actually argue that we would be able to reuse the interval logic from the month
> for this so it should not be more work than what has been proposed.
>   

I am opposed to this completely. It's both unreadable and
incomprehensible to most users. I think the language we've described
between eliminating the "singular" limitation and adding negative
numbers to describe the numbers back from the end of the month will
provide all the versatility we need.

Adding "7-day-set" is no different from the "septet" we discussed
previously and shot down.


Examples with my current proposal:

The first Tuesday and Thursday of the month:
accessTime = periodic monthly on Tue,Thu between 1 - 7

All Tuesdays and Thursdays in the month:
accessTime = periodic monthly on Tue,Thu between 1 - 31

The last Tuesday and Thursday of the month:
accessTime = periodic monthly on Tue,Thus between -7 - -1

I'm questioning whether for readability (especially with negative values
in play) we should switch to:

accessTime = periodic monthly on Tue,Thus between -7 and -1

Using "and" in place of the range hyphen. Thoughts?

- -- 
Stephen Gallagher
RHCE 804006346421761

Delivering value year after year.
Red Hat ranks #1 in value among software vendors.
http://www.redhat.com/promo/vendor/
> -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
> Version: GnuPG v1.4.11 (GNU/Linux)
> Comment: Using GnuPG with Fedora - http://enigmail.mozdev.org/
>
> iEYEARECAAYFAkzqiLcACgkQeiVVYja6o6NGoACfUyTjhvYx8eFcXUWcmdAi2oT4
> zfIAoJMipLumnwIvSSNBT0G3NmRxQOom
> =hnac
> -----END PGP SIGNATURE-----

[Freeipa-devel] Proposed changes to the HBAC grammar

[Stephen Gallagher]

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
Hash: SHA1

I have updated the grammar page at
https://fedorahosted.org/sssd/wiki/HBAC_Grammar again.

The main changes made are these:

 * Eliminate the arbitrary "singular" from monthly repetitions
 * Add negative numbers for days of the month for counting from the end
 * For readability, replaced "-" with "and" for "between DAY and
DAY"
 * For readability, added delimiter "at" before the range-specifier

Please reread the page for more detail.

- -- 
Stephen Gallagher
RHCE 804006346421761

Delivering value year after year.
Red Hat ranks #1 in value among software vendors.
http://www.redhat.com/promo/vendor/
> -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
> Version: GnuPG v1.4.11 (GNU/Linux)
> Comment: Using GnuPG with Fedora - http://enigmail.mozdev.org/
>
> iEYEARECAAYFAkzqi/4ACgkQeiVVYja6o6Nv6ACfSvLHsASBQbqipVbjZGZhFfkX
> moIAn0SV8RsrpuAeJicMyFD2k7KeUzzT
> =NkXL
> -----END PGP SIGNATURE-----

[Freeipa-devel] Proposed changes to the HBAC grammar

[Dmitri Pal]

Stephen Gallagher wrote:
>  I have updated the grammar page at
>  https://fedorahosted.org/sssd/wiki/HBAC_Grammar again.
>
>  The main changes made are these:
>
>   * Eliminate the arbitrary "singular" from monthly repetitions
>   * Add negative numbers for days of the month for counting from the end
>   * For readability, replaced "-" with "and" for "between DAY and
> DAY"
>   * For readability, added delimiter "at" before the range-specifier
>
>  Please reread the page for more detail.
>  
I have to comment on many things with the current state of grammar so
for easier reference I copied it here and commented inline

> timerange = Absolute / Periodic
>
> Absolute = "absolute" WSP generalizedTime WSP "~" WSP generalizedTime
>
>
> generalizedTime as defined in RFC 4517 section 3.3.13 but without time zone at the end.
>
> Periodic = "periodic" WSP Yearly / Monthly / Weekly / Daily
>
> Yearly = "yearly" WSP Y-specifier WSP range-specified
>
> Monthly = "monthly" WSP M-specifier WSP range-specifier
>
> Weekly = "weekly" WSP W-specifier WSP range-specifier
>
> Daily = "daily" WSP range-specifier
>
> Y-specifier = Y-month / Y-week / Y-day
>
> Y-month = "month" WSP month-number WSP M-specifier
>
> Y-week = "week" WSP week-of-the-year WSP W-specifier
>
> Y-day = "day" WSP day-of-the-year
>
> M-specifier = M-on / M-day 
If we read grammar so far we will end up with the following uses of the M-specifier

periodic monthly <M-specifier> <range>
periodic yearly month 1,4,7 <M-specifier> <range>

So far so good.
Now we have two variants of the M-specifier M-on and M-day

> M-on = "on" WSP day-of-the-week WSP day-of-the-month-range
The intent of this one was to be able to specify the weekday within a month

> M-day = "day" WSP day-of-the-month-interval 
This one for calendar days within a month 

> W-specifier = "day" WSP day-of-the-week
>
> month-number = interval 1-12
>
> week-of-the-year = interval 1-52
>
> septet-of-the-month = interval 1-5 
The septet is not used any more and should be removed, right?

> day-of-the-month-interval = interval day-of-the-month 
This should be a plain interval from 1-31 with no negatives since it is used in the M-day
rule 
I would argue that M-day can be just replaced with

M-day = "day" WSP interval 1-31

Keep in mind that definition of the interval here is as described below: 
interval XX-YY = a comma-separated list of items from XX to YY, or dash-separated ranges.
For example, (interval 1-31) 3-7,10,12,15,25-31 with no spaces inside.

So definition of the day-of-the-month-interval can be then removed.

> day-of-the-month-range = "between" WSP day-of-the-month WSP
> "and" WSP day-of-the-month
>
> day-of-the-month = "-31" to "31" 

This notion allows me to enter "between -31 and 3" which does not make any
sense.
Also current grammar does not allow me to use ranges which I want to use here.
I want to be able to express "Wednesday" of the first and third week of the
month. Capability to do so it completely lost.
We abandoned the term "septet" not because of the bad idea but because this is a
confusing word. But we can leave without it as long as I can use complex intervals.
After more thinking I would like to reject idea of the negative numbers.
Instead we can do the following:


M-on = "on" WSP day-of-the-week WSP "during" WSP
day-of-the-month-range
day-of-the-month-range = interval 1-31 / last-days
last-days = "last" WSP sequential-days
sequential-days = single number from the 1-31 range

So if we want to say "Wednesday" of the first and third week of the month I will
use:

periodic monthly on Wed during 1-7,15-21

if I want to say Wednesday during last two weeks of the month I will say:

periodic monthly on Wed during last 14

IMO it is cleaner and simpler and allows to express all the notions we want to express. 
 


> day-of-the-week = interval 1-7 (or Mon-Sun)
>
> range-specifier = "at" WSP HHMM WSP "+" WSP duration-specifier 
What is the value and significance of the "+" here? Is it just for readability?
Then I would suggest that we replace it with the word "for".

> duration-specifier = DDHHMM
>
> DD = "00" to "31"
>
> HH = "00" to "23"
>
> MM = "00" to "59"
>
>
> interval XX-YY = a comma-separated list of items from XX to YY, or dash-separated ranges.
> range = dash-separated range 
This definition seems incomplete but I do not know how to make it better...

> For example, (interval 1-31) 3-7,10,12,15,25-31 with no spaces inside.

Thank you,
Dmitri Pal

Sr. Engineering Manager IPA project,
Red Hat Inc.


-------------------------------
Looking to carve out IT costs?
www.redhat.com/carveoutcosts/

[Freeipa-devel] Proposed changes to the HBAC grammar

[Stephen Gallagher]

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
Hash: SHA1

On 11/22/2010 12:22 PM, Dmitri Pal wrote
> >
> > septet-of-the-month = interval 1-5
>  
>  The septet is not used any more and should be removed, right? 
Yeah, I missed removing that. I've deleted it from the page now.

>  
> > day-of-the-month-interval = interval day-of-the-month
>  
>  This should be a plain interval from 1-31 with no negatives since it is used in the M-day
> rule 
>  I would argue that M-day can be just replaced with
>  
>  M-day = "day" WSP interval 1-31
>   
I disagree. With this construction, we can say:

accessTime = periodic monthly day -1 at 0900 + 000800

(Read: on the last day of the month from 09:00 to 17:00)

This would be useful for e.g. a regularly-scheduled backup task.

>  Keep in mind that definition of the interval here is as described
> below: 
>  interval XX-YY = a comma-separated list of items from XX to YY, or dash-separated
> ranges.
>  For example, (interval 1-31) 3-7,10,12,15,25-31 with no spaces inside.
>  
>  So definition of the day-of-the-month-interval can be then removed.
>   
Agreed. I've simplified the display of this.

> > day-of-the-month-range = "between" WSP day-of-the-month
> WSP "and" WSP day-of-the-month
> >
> > day-of-the-month = "-31" to "31"
>  
>  
>  This notion allows me to enter "between -31 and 3" which does not make any
> sense. 
I'll clarify with "-31" to "-1" OR "0" to
"31".

>  Also current grammar does not allow me to use ranges which I want to
> use here. 
Please explain what range you want here. I'm specifically avoiding
"intervals" here because it's too complex to understand.

Describing events with arbitrary intervals like this would be better
done with the M-day approach.


>  I want to be able to express "Wednesday" of the first and
> third week of the month. Capability to do so it completely lost. 
Wrong. accessTime is multivalued. You just create two entries, one for
the first week, one for the third week. They are additive.

>  We abandoned the term "septet" not because of the bad idea
> but because this is a confusing word. But we can leave without it as long as I can use
> complex intervals.
>  After more thinking I would like to reject idea of the negative numbers.
>  Instead we can do the following:
>  
>  
>  M-on = "on" WSP day-of-the-week WSP "during" WSP
> day-of-the-month-range
>  day-of-the-month-range = interval 1-31 / last-days
>  last-days = "last" WSP sequential-days
>  sequential-days = single number from the 1-31 range
>  
>  So if we want to say "Wednesday" of the first and third week of the month I
> will use:
>  
>  periodic monthly on Wed during 1-7,15-21
>  
>  if I want to say Wednesday during last two weeks of the month I will say:
>  
>  periodic monthly on Wed during last 14
>  
>  IMO it is cleaner and simpler and allows to express all the notions we want to express. 
>   
See above. I really don't want intervals in the M-on grammar, since it
makes it extremely difficult to comprehend by mere mortals.

>  
>  
> > day-of-the-week = interval 1-7 (or Mon-Sun)
> >
> > range-specifier = "at" WSP HHMM WSP "+" WSP duration-specifier
>  
>  What is the value and significance of the "+" here? Is it just for readability?
> Then I would suggest that we replace it with the word "for".
>   
Sure, "for" is fine.

> > duration-specifier = DDHHMM
> >
> > DD = "00" to "31"
> >
> > HH = "00" to "23"
> >
> > MM = "00" to "59"
> >
> >
> > interval XX-YY = a comma-separated list of items from XX to YY, or dash-separated
> ranges.
> > range = dash-separated range
>  
>  This definition seems incomplete but I do not know how to make it better...
>  
> > For example, (interval 1-31) 3-7,10,12,15,25-31 with no spaces inside.
>  
>  
>  Thank you,
>  Dmitri Pal
>  
>  Sr. Engineering Manager IPA project,
>  Red Hat Inc.
>  
>  
>  -------------------------------
>  Looking to carve out IT costs?
>  www.redhat.com/carveoutcosts/
>  
>  _______________________________________________
>  Freeipa-devel mailing list
>  Freeipa-devel(a)redhat.com
>  https://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/freeipa-devel 

- -- 
Stephen Gallagher
RHCE 804006346421761

Delivering value year after year.
Red Hat ranks #1 in value among software vendors.
http://www.redhat.com/promo/vendor/
> -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
> Version: GnuPG v1.4.11 (GNU/Linux)
> Comment: Using GnuPG with Fedora - http://enigmail.mozdev.org/
>
> iEYEARECAAYFAkzqvi4ACgkQeiVVYja6o6ODqQCgm5eK3onDby9Of4arf53p8oNM
> GV8AoIhFQUXZNF8EiJ4d6S/BAujAHnAy
> =PCv6
> -----END PGP SIGNATURE-----

[Freeipa-devel] Proposed changes to the HBAC grammar

[Dmitri Pal]

Stephen Gallagher wrote:
>  On 11/22/2010 12:22 PM, Dmitri Pal wrote
>  >> septet-of-the-month = interval 1-5
>  > The septet is not used any more and should be removed, right?
>
>  Yeah, I missed removing that. I've deleted it from the page now.
>
>  >> day-of-the-month-interval = interval day-of-the-month
>  > This should be a plain interval from 1-31 with no negatives since it
>  is used in the M-day rule
>  > I would argue that M-day can be just replaced with
>
>  > M-day = "day" WSP interval 1-31
>
>
>  I disagree. With this construction, we can say:
>
>  accessTime = periodic monthly day -1 at 0900 + 000800
>
>  (Read: on the last day of the month from 09:00 to 17:00)
>
>  This would be useful for e.g. a regularly-scheduled backup task.
>  
I think negative numbers are confusing and it is hard to decipher.
Why we cant say "last"? it will be much cleaner.

>  > Keep in mind that definition of the interval here is as
> described
>  below:
>  > interval XX-YY = a comma-separated list of items from XX to YY, or
>  dash-separated ranges.
>  > For example, (interval 1-31) 3-7,10,12,15,25-31 with no spaces inside.
>
>  > So definition of the day-of-the-month-interval can be then removed.
>
>
>  Agreed. I've simplified the display of this.
>
>  >> day-of-the-month-range = "between" WSP day-of-the-month WSP
> "and"
>  WSP day-of-the-month
>  >>
>  >> day-of-the-month = "-31" to "31"
>
>  > This notion allows me to enter "between -31 and 3" which does not
>  make any sense.
>
>  I'll clarify with "-31" to "-1" OR "0" to
> "31".
>
>  > Also current grammar does not allow me to use ranges which I want to
>  use here.
>
>  Please explain what range you want here. I'm specifically avoiding
>  "intervals" here because it's too complex to understand. 
I think it is very simple:

a) I want to use explicit days by number I use this:
periodic monthly day 1,3,5,10-15,22
b) I want to use week days during an interval I use this:
periodic monthly day on Wed, Sun during 1,3,5,10-15,22

I want to use same interval definition in both cases.
>  Describing events with arbitrary intervals like this would be better
>  done with the M-day approach.
>
>
>  > I want to be able to express "Wednesday" of the first and third week
>  of the month. Capability to do so it completely lost.
>
>  Wrong. accessTime is multivalued. You just create two entries, one for
>  the first week, one for the third week. They are additive. 
Yes you can but I think it is not an acceptable solution. I should be
able to express it in one rule.


>  > We abandoned the term "septet" not because of the bad idea but
>  because this is a confusing word. But we can leave without it as long
>  as I can use complex intervals.
>  > After more thinking I would like to reject idea of the negative numbers.
>  > Instead we can do the following:
>
>
>  > M-on = "on" WSP day-of-the-week WSP "during" WSP
> day-of-the-month-range
>  > day-of-the-month-range = interval 1-31 / last-days
>  > last-days = "last" WSP sequential-days
>  > sequential-days = single number from the 1-31 range
>
>  > So if we want to say "Wednesday" of the first and third week of the
>  month I will use:
>
>  > periodic monthly on Wed during 1-7,15-21
>
>  > if I want to say Wednesday during last two weeks of the month I will
>  say:
>
>  > periodic monthly on Wed during last 14
>
>  > IMO it is cleaner and simpler and allows to express all the notions
>  we want to express.
>
>
>  See above. I really don't want intervals in the M-on grammar, since it
>  makes it extremely difficult to comprehend by mere mortals. 
And I really want them there.

>  >> day-of-the-week = interval 1-7 (or Mon-Sun)
>  >>
>  >> range-specifier = "at" WSP HHMM WSP "+" WSP
> duration-specifier
>  > What is the value and significance of the "+" here? Is it just for
>  readability? Then I would suggest that we replace it with the word "for".
>
>
>  Sure, "for" is fine.
>
>  >> duration-specifier = DDHHMM
>  >>
>  >> DD = "00" to "31"
>  >>
>  >> HH = "00" to "23"
>  >>
>  >> MM = "00" to "59"
>  >>
>  >>
>  >> interval XX-YY = a comma-separated list of items from XX to YY, or
>  dash-separated ranges.
>  >> range = dash-separated range
>  > This definition seems incomplete but I do not know how to make it
>  better...
>
>  >> For example, (interval 1-31) 3-7,10,12,15,25-31 with no spaces inside.
>
>  > Thank you,
>  > Dmitri Pal
>
>  > Sr. Engineering Manager IPA project,
>  > Red Hat Inc.
>
>
>  > -------------------------------
>  > Looking to carve out IT costs?
>  > www.redhat.com/carveoutcosts/
>
>  > _______________________________________________
>  > Freeipa-devel mailing list
>  > Freeipa-devel(a)redhat.com
>  > https://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/freeipa-devel
>
>  
_______________________________________________
sssd-devel mailing list
sssd-devel(a)lists.fedorahosted.org
https://fedorahosted.org/mailman/listinfo/sssd-devel

-- 
Thank you,
Dmitri Pal

Sr. Engineering Manager IPA project,
Red Hat Inc.


-------------------------------
Looking to carve out IT costs?
www.redhat.com/carveoutcosts/

[Freeipa-devel] Proposed changes to the HBAC grammar

[Jeff Schroeder]

On Mon, Nov 22, 2010 at 1:35 PM, Dmitri Pal <dpal(a)redhat.com&gt; wrote:
>  Stephen Gallagher wrote:
> > On 11/22/2010 12:22 PM, Dmitri Pal wrote
> > >> septet-of-the-month = interval 1-5
> > > The septet is not used any more and should be removed, right?
> >
> > Yeah, I missed removing that. I've deleted it from the page now.
> >
> > >> day-of-the-month-interval = interval day-of-the-month
> > > This should be a plain interval from 1-31 with no negatives since it
> > is used in the M-day rule
> > > I would argue that M-day can be just replaced with
> >
> > > M-day = "day" WSP interval 1-31
> >
> >
> > I disagree. With this construction, we can say:
> >
> > accessTime = periodic monthly day -1 at 0900 + 000800
> >
> > (Read: on the last day of the month from 09:00 to 17:00)
> >
> > This would be useful for e.g. a regularly-scheduled backup task.
> >
>
>  I think negative numbers are confusing and it is hard to decipher.
>  Why we cant say "last"? it will be much cleaner. 
As a user, I disagree. While a "last" statement makes sense, a
negative number makes perfect sense as well. In fact, a negative
number is easier to feed to various scripts and whatnot. I'd actually
prefer -1 to denote the last day of the month or whatnot over last.

> > > Keep in mind that definition of the interval here is as
> described
> > below:
> > > interval XX-YY = a comma-separated list of items from XX to YY, or
> > dash-separated ranges.
> > > For example, (interval 1-31) 3-7,10,12,15,25-31 with no spaces inside.
> >
> > > So definition of the day-of-the-month-interval can be then removed.
> >
> >
> > Agreed. I've simplified the display of this.
> >
> > >> day-of-the-month-range = "between" WSP day-of-the-month WSP
> "and"
> > WSP day-of-the-month
> > >>
> > >> day-of-the-month = "-31" to "31"
> >
> > > This notion allows me to enter "between -31 and 3" which does not
> > make any sense.
> >
> > I'll clarify with "-31" to "-1" OR "0" to
> "31".
> >
> > > Also current grammar does not allow me to use ranges which I want to
> > use here.
> >
> > Please explain what range you want here. I'm specifically avoiding
> > "intervals" here because it's too complex to understand.
>
>  I think it is very simple:
>
>  a) I want to use explicit days by number I use this:
>  periodic monthly day 1,3,5,10-15,22
>  b) I want to use week days during an interval I use this:
>  periodic monthly day on Wed, Sun during 1,3,5,10-15,22
>
>  I want to use same interval definition in both cases.
> >
> > Describing events with arbitrary intervals like this would be better
> > done with the M-day approach.
> >
> >
> > > I want to be able to express "Wednesday" of the first and third week
> > of the month. Capability to do so it completely lost.
> >
> > Wrong. accessTime is multivalued. You just create two entries, one for
> > the first week, one for the third week. They are additive.
>
>  Yes you can but I think it is not an acceptable solution. I should be
>  able to express it in one rule. 
While this would be nice, does it really matter? Smaller rules are
easier to understand. Keep in mind that the more chances you give
admins to misconfigure things through really hairy rules, the more
they will misconfigure things.

> > > We abandoned the term "septet" not because of the
> bad idea but
> > because this is a confusing word. But we can leave without it as long
> > as I can use complex intervals.
> > > After more thinking I would like to reject idea of the negative numbers.
> > > Instead we can do the following:
> >
> >
> > > M-on = "on" WSP day-of-the-week WSP "during" WSP
> day-of-the-month-range
> > > day-of-the-month-range = interval 1-31 / last-days
> > > last-days = "last" WSP sequential-days
> > > sequential-days = single number from the 1-31 range
> >
> > > So if we want to say "Wednesday" of the first and third week of the
> > month I will use:
> >
> > > periodic monthly on Wed during 1-7,15-21
> >
> > > if I want to say Wednesday during last two weeks of the month I will
> > say:
> >
> > > periodic monthly on Wed during last 14
> >
> > > IMO it is cleaner and simpler and allows to express all the notions
> > we want to express.
> >
> >
> > See above. I really don't want intervals in the M-on grammar, since it
> > makes it extremely difficult to comprehend by mere mortals.
>
>  And I really want them there. 
Why? What technical argument necessitates this? I'm inclined to agree
with Stephen here. He has a good point.

> > >> day-of-the-week = interval 1-7 (or Mon-Sun)
> > >>
> > >> range-specifier = "at" WSP HHMM WSP "+" WSP
> duration-specifier
> > > What is the value and significance of the "+" here? Is it just for
> > readability? Then I would suggest that we replace it with the word "for".
> >
> >
> > Sure, "for" is fine.
> >
> > >> duration-specifier = DDHHMM
> > >>
> > >> DD = "00" to "31"
> > >>
> > >> HH = "00" to "23"
> > >>
> > >> MM = "00" to "59"
> > >>
> > >>
> > >> interval XX-YY = a comma-separated list of items from XX to YY, or
> > dash-separated ranges.
> > >> range = dash-separated range
> > > This definition seems incomplete but I do not know how to make it
> > better...
> >
> > >> For example, (interval 1-31) 3-7,10,12,15,25-31 with no spaces inside.
> >
> > > Thank you,
> > > Dmitri Pal
> >
> > > Sr. Engineering Manager IPA project,
> > > Red Hat Inc.
> >
> >
> > > -------------------------------
> > > Looking to carve out IT costs?
> > > www.redhat.com/carveoutcosts/
> >
> > > _______________________________________________
> > > Freeipa-devel mailing list
> > > Freeipa-devel(a)redhat.com
> > > https://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/freeipa-devel
> >
> >
>  _______________________________________________
>  sssd-devel mailing list
>  sssd-devel(a)lists.fedorahosted.org
>  https://fedorahosted.org/mailman/listinfo/sssd-devel
>
>  --
>  Thank you,
>  Dmitri Pal
>
>  Sr. Engineering Manager IPA project,
>  Red Hat Inc.
>
>
>  -------------------------------
>  Looking to carve out IT costs?
>  www.redhat.com/carveoutcosts/
>
>  _______________________________________________
>  sssd-devel mailing list
>  sssd-devel(a)lists.fedorahosted.org
>  https://fedorahosted.org/mailman/listinfo/sssd-devel
>  


-- 
Jeff Schroeder

Don't drink and derive, alcohol and analysis don't mix.
http://www.digitalprognosis.com

[Freeipa-devel] Proposed changes to the HBAC grammar

[Dmitri Pal]

> >>> periodic monthly on Wed during last 14
> >>>         
> >>> IMO it is cleaner and simpler and allows to express all the notions
> >>>         
> >> we want to express.
> >>
> >>
> >> See above. I really don't want intervals in the M-on grammar, since it
> >> makes it extremely difficult to comprehend by mere mortals.
> >>       
> > And I really want them there.
> >     
>
>  Why? What technical argument necessitates this? I'm inclined to agree
>  with Stephen here. He has a good point.
>
>     
Consistency, same pattern, same construct so less code...
Those are pretty significant arguments for me.


There are couple other things that came from a discussion with UXD which
I will describe in a different thread.
>     

-- 
Thank you,
Dmitri Pal

Sr. Engineering Manager IPA project,
Red Hat Inc.


-------------------------------
Looking to carve out IT costs?
www.redhat.com/carveoutcosts/