10:56 p.m.
Hi everybody,
So far with redhat/fedora installation, it has been the default, that if I
select full installation, I have all the language packages installed as
default. (For ex: kde-i18n-* packages). It would be better, if the
installation does install only the packages related to the language that is
selected at the begining of the installation, for ex: If I select US.English,
the kde-i18n packages neednot be installed, so that it saves something around
370MB of valuable space. It would be better to have it as default way instead
of deselecting individual packages during the installation.
--
Poonchezhian P.
Email : pchez(a)mail.cyberneme.com
7:50 a.m.
Poonchezhian P. said:
Hi everybody,
So far with redhat/fedora installation, it has been the default, that if
I
select full installation,
[snip]
so that it saves something
around 370MB of valuable space.
[snip]
I would guess not doing a full install would save even more valuable space.
--
William Hooper
9:30 a.m.
"William Hooper" <whooperhsd3(a)earthlink.net> writes:
Poonchezhian P. said:
> Hi everybody,
>
>
> So far with redhat/fedora installation, it has been the default, that if
> I
> select full installation,
[snip]
> so that it saves something
> around 370MB of valuable space.
[snip]
I would guess not doing a full install would save even more valuable space.
But take even more valuable time.
When you have a mechanism in place to select language, what sense does
it make to then default to installing all languages?
9:52 a.m.
Harry Putnam said:
> I would guess not doing a full install would save even more
valuable
> space.
But take even more valuable time.
"Install Everything" should mean _everything_. Meaning anything else
doesn't make sense. If you are doing installs often enought that it costs
that much time, invest in learning kickstart and save yourself even more
time.
I thought the "Minimal install isn't minimal enough" discussions were bad,
now we are going to have a "Everything install is too everything"
discussion?
--
William Hooper
10:56 a.m.
On Thu, Dec 16, 2004 at 10:52:25AM -0500, William Hooper wrote:
"Install Everything" should mean _everything_. Meaning
anything else
doesn't make sense. If you are doing installs often enought that it costs
that much time, invest in learning kickstart and save yourself even more
time.
Yet another reason for removing the "Install Everything" option. :)
--
Matthew Miller mattdm(a)mattdm.org <http://www.mattdm.org/>
Boston University Linux ------> <http://linux.bu.edu/>
1:57 p.m.
tor, 16.12.2004 kl. 17.56 skrev Matthew Miller:
On Thu, Dec 16, 2004 at 10:52:25AM -0500, William Hooper wrote:
> "Install Everything" should mean _everything_. Meaning anything else
> doesn't make sense. If you are doing installs often enought that it costs
> that much time, invest in learning kickstart and save yourself even more
> time.
Yet another reason for removing the "Install Everything" option. :)
multi-purpose machines? You know those boxes who acts as a workstation
for web, email, office etc., as a scientific workstation, as a
developers workstation, as a writers workstation, as a web, mail, sql (2
different kinds), shell (telnet, rsh, ssh. Just to cater everyone)
server, and all kinds of stuff i can't come up with right now... Those
machines.
If only extras had a cd or 5 as well... :P That would make a really
*complete* system :) Christ, your kids could be playing potatoguy, while
you made aeronautical calcultations, and somebody else was surfing the
web (with links and a serial console). Let's take multitasking to the
next level!!!
No joke intended
The line over is a joke
Kyrre
2:13 p.m.
On Thu, Dec 16, 2004 at 08:57:46PM +0100, Kyrre Ness Sjobak wrote:
multi-purpose machines? You know those boxes who acts as a
workstation
for web, email, office etc., as a scientific workstation, as a
developers workstation, as a writers workstation, as a web, mail, sql (2
different kinds), shell (telnet, rsh, ssh. Just to cater everyone)
server, and all kinds of stuff i can't come up with right now... Those
machines.
Yeah. Also you're running clustering software on the standalone system. And
hey, you're a kerberos server!
--
Matthew Miller mattdm(a)mattdm.org <http://www.mattdm.org/>
Boston University Linux ------> <http://linux.bu.edu/>
2:58 p.m.
tor, 16.12.2004 kl. 21.13 skrev Matthew Miller:
On Thu, Dec 16, 2004 at 08:57:46PM +0100, Kyrre Ness Sjobak wrote:
> multi-purpose machines? You know those boxes who acts as a workstation
> for web, email, office etc., as a scientific workstation, as a
> developers workstation, as a writers workstation, as a web, mail, sql (2
> different kinds), shell (telnet, rsh, ssh. Just to cater everyone)
> server, and all kinds of stuff i can't come up with right now... Those
> machines.
Yeah. Also you're running clustering software on the standalone system. And
hey, you're a kerberos server!
Well... You *could* run vmware and run nodes in it...
Doubt that it would give you any speed advantage, tough...
--
Matthew Miller mattdm(a)mattdm.org <http://www.mattdm.org/>
Boston University Linux ------> <http://linux.bu.edu/>
6:31 p.m.
On Thu, 2004-12-16 at 16:56, Matthew Miller wrote:
Yet another reason for removing the "Install Everything"
option. :)
I know I'm late to this thread, and yes I did see the smiley in the post
above, but just in case anyone is considering removing the "Install
Everything" option I'd like to make a personal plea, or otherwise
provide an argument for its existence: As a web developer I have to be
able to (even only roughly) mimic a clients system when I am prototyping
something here on my workstation, and that really does mean having
everything there to try out -- whether it's MySQL or Postgresql, or
sendmail versus postfix, or what does this site look like in Mozilla and
Konqueror (a reasonably reliable guide for how it might look in Safari).
I always choose the "install everything" option and it is very useful to
me. So I hope no one out there is assuming it isn't just because they
don't use it.
Best, D
--
=====================================================================
D. D. Brierton darren(a)dzr-web.com www.dzr-web.com
Trying is the first step towards failure (Homer Simpson)
=====================================================================
9:32 a.m.
On Thursday 16 December 2004 13:50, William Hooper wrote:
> So far with redhat/fedora installation, it has been the default,
that if
> I select full installation,
...
> so that it saves something
> around 370MB of valuable space.
I would guess not doing a full install would save even more valuable
space.
I'm not quite sure what is meant by "full installation",
but one does get an awful lot of i18n files if one simply opts
for the standard installation.
While in principle I like the idea -
we live on a shrinking globe -
the chances of my wanting to read a document in Serbo-Croat
is vanishingly small.
Actually, it's not so much the installation that concerns me -
it is more the fact that every now and then yum downloads
a newversion of every locale in theuniverse -
and I find it difficult to believe that all have been updated.
--
Timothy Murphy
e-mail (<80k only): tim /at/ birdsnest.maths.tcd.ie
tel: +353-86-2336090, +353-1-2842366
s-mail: School of Mathematics, Trinity College, Dublin 2, Ireland
10:01 a.m.
Timothy Murphy said:
On Thursday 16 December 2004 13:50, William Hooper wrote:
>> So far with redhat/fedora installation, it has been the default, that
>> if I select full installation,
>>
...
>> so that it saves something around 370MB of valuable space.
> I would guess not doing a full install would save even more valuable
> space.
I'm not quite sure what is meant by "full installation",
but one does get an awful lot of i18n files if one simply opts for the
standard installation.
Perhaps you could elaborate? On my Workstation install there is exactly
one *i18n* RPM: openoffice.org-i18n. Granted it is a large file, but
that has already been discussed and IIRC will be broken into different
RPMs for FC4. That said if you don't need the additional languges you can
just remove it.
--
William Hooper
10:09 a.m.
On Thu, 2004-12-16 at 11:01 -0500, William Hooper wrote:
Perhaps you could elaborate? On my Workstation install there is
exactly
one *i18n* RPM: openoffice.org-i18n. Granted it is a large file, but
that has already been discussed and IIRC will be broken into different
RPMs for FC4. That said if you don't need the additional languges you can
just remove it.
Furthermore, language-specific files in openoffice.org-i18n are tagged
with "rpm_lang" so you can actually make RPM _not_ install files that
aren't your language by setting some magic RPM option which I forget.
Dan
10:18 a.m.
On Thu, 16 Dec 2004 11:09:15 -0500, Dan Williams <dcbw(a)redhat.com> wrote:
Furthermore, language-specific files in openoffice.org-i18n are
tagged
with "rpm_lang" so you can actually make RPM _not_ install files that
aren't your language by setting some magic RPM option which I forget.
hmmmm, so your saying that rpm will selectively install language specific files
at package install time based on what languages(s) i have my system setup for?
Is there a mechanism by which you can add languages to your system
later... and then "reinstall" packages so that the new language
payloads from already installed packages get placed on the system?
-jef
10:59 a.m.
New subject: Adding languages...
On Thu, 16 Dec 2004, Jeff Spaleta wrote:
Is there a mechanism by which you can add languages to your system
later... and then "reinstall" packages so that the new language
payloads from already installed packages get placed on the system?
This is sometime I wondered too! I often have people install Fedora only
in English to "check it out." Then later they say "ok, I like it. How
can I add the Russian" (or Chinese, etc.) Besides poring over the package
list, adding anything that looked appropriate, I didn't know what to tell
them.
Can anyone shed any light on this?
> -jef
-- noah
2:17 p.m.
New subject: Adding languages...
On Dec 16, 2004, "Noah Silva [Mailing list]"
<nsilva-list(a)aoi.atari-source.com> wrote:
On Thu, 16 Dec 2004, Jeff Spaleta wrote:
>
> Is there a mechanism by which you can add languages to your system
> later... and then "reinstall" packages so that the new language
> payloads from already installed packages get placed on the system?
This is sometime I wondered too! I often have people install Fedora
only
in English to "check it out." Then later they say "ok, I like it. How
can I add the Russian" (or Chinese, etc.) Besides poring over the package
list, adding anything that looked appropriate, I didn't know what to tell
them.
Can anyone shed any light on this?
That's one of the reasons why the installer no longer sets
%_install_langs in say ~root/.rpmmacros according to the install-time
selection, otherwise the only way to add languages later is to
reinstall all packages that might have been only partially-installed.
This unfortunately doesn't solve the entire problem, since some
language-specific packages (kde-i18n-* comes to mind) still get
filtered out, since the package is only brought in if the language is
selected for installation.
I.e., we have two language exclusion mechanisms, and the installer is
inconsistent in the way it uses them. Which is not to say that being
consistent would make everybody happy. If we made it consistent in
that all langs were installed, some would complain even more about
spending disk space on translations they don't use. If we made it
consistent in installing only what the user asked for, many would be
inconvenienced by the need for reinstalling packages to get additional
languages.
What would make things better IMHO would be to transparently break up
lang-specific bits into separate rpms, and have some form of
conditional dependency in rpm or in dep resolvers that would enable a
user to install additional language meta-packages later on, that would
bring in the localization packages by means of dependencies of the
form `if package X is installed, install X-lang'.
Or we could turn it around, and have a dependency in X such as `if
lang-L is installed, require X-L'.
Either way, it's more work for dep solvers, but I see other nice uses
for such conditional dependencies.
--
Alexandre Oliva http://www.ic.unicamp.br/~oliva/
Red Hat Compiler Engineer aoliva(a){redhat.com, gcc.gnu.org}
Free Software Evangelist oliva(a){lsd.ic.unicamp.br, gnu.org}
2:50 p.m.
New subject: Adding languages...
I.e., we have two language exclusion mechanisms, and the installer is
inconsistent in the way it uses them. Which is not to say that being
consistent would make everybody happy. If we made it consistent in
that all langs were installed, some would complain even more about
spending disk space on translations they don't use. If we made it
consistent in installing only what the user asked for, many would be
inconvenienced by the need for reinstalling packages to get additional
languages.
What would make things better IMHO would be to transparently break up
lang-specific bits into separate rpms, and have some form of
conditional dependency in rpm or in dep resolvers that would enable a
user to install additional language meta-packages later on, that would
bring in the localization packages by means of dependencies of the
form `if package X is installed, install X-lang'.
This seems like a good plan, but would result in there being many more
packages. Besides that, though, I will admit to being a little recent to
Redhat/Fedora, but at least in Debian, it seemed like when I installed a
package, it installed all languages for that package. I thought that was
"how things worked" in linux - which I liked, compared to trying to have
two languages of the same software package installed in windows. What a
nightmare!
If the language files took up so much space though, I could see a solution
similar to man pages working out. They are installed gzipped, and
unzipped on first use.
The problem I am referring to is more that the fonts might not be there,
or the IME packages needed to enter Chinese might be hard to add later on,
etc.
Or we could turn it around, and have a dependency in X such as `if
lang-L is installed, require X-L'.
Either way, it's more work for dep solvers, but I see other nice uses
for such conditional dependencies.
My real question was, how do you -tell- if lang-L is installed. Does the
installer save this somewhere?
(Anyway I tell people now: Install any languages you or anyone who uses
this computer might need when you install Fedora...)
-- noah
12:36 p.m.
On Thu, Dec 16, 2004 at 11:09:15AM -0500, Dan Williams wrote:
On Thu, 2004-12-16 at 11:01 -0500, William Hooper wrote:
> Perhaps you could elaborate? On my Workstation install there is exactly
> one *i18n* RPM: openoffice.org-i18n. Granted it is a large file, but
> that has already been discussed and IIRC will be broken into different
> RPMs for FC4. That said if you don't need the additional languges you can
> just remove it.
Furthermore, language-specific files in openoffice.org-i18n are tagged
with "rpm_lang" so you can actually make RPM _not_ install files that
aren't your language by setting some magic RPM option which I forget.
Not really an option but a macro called %_install_langs and which
happens to be defined as 'all' in /usr/lib/rpm/macros.
Indeed after dropping in a file /etc/rpm/macros.lang with the
following line in it:
%_install_langs C:en:pl:fr:ru
I see after 'rpm -qls openoffice.org-i18n' 6029 "not installed"
lines while 'rpm -qV openoffice.org-i18n' is still happy.
There are two troubles with that. One is that there is no way to
specify that during an initial installation (and I did not check if
anaconda will honour that during upgrades but it would not surprise
me if not). You have to do a package update after you added your
own definition for %_install_langs or force a reinstallation
('glibc-common' can be slimmed down quite a bit too and particularly
on a laptop this may make a substantial difference). The other
one is that this bit of information seems to be a quite "esotheric
knowledge" and I am not even sure if it is properly documented
somewhere.
Michal
5:39 p.m.
On Thursday 16 December 2004 16:01, William Hooper wrote:
> I'm not quite sure what is meant by "full
installation",
> but one does get an awful lot of i18n files if one simply opts for the
> standard installation.
Perhaps you could elaborate? On my Workstation install there is exactly
one *i18n* RPM: openoffice.org-i18n. Granted it is a large file, but
that has already been discussed and IIRC will be broken into different
RPMs for FC4. That said if you don't need the additional languges you can
just remove it.
I admit I'm not quite sure where these came from, but I have:
============================================
[tim@alfred ~]$ grep i18n /var/log/rpmpkgs
kde-i18n-Brazil-3.3.1-1.noarch.rpm
kde-i18n-British-3.3.1-1.noarch.rpm
kde-i18n-Czech-3.3.1-1.noarch.rpm
kde-i18n-Danish-3.3.1-1.noarch.rpm
kde-i18n-Dutch-3.3.1-1.noarch.rpm
kde-i18n-Estonian-3.3.1-1.noarch.rpm
kde-i18n-French-3.3.1-1.noarch.rpm
kde-i18n-German-3.3.1-1.noarch.rpm
kde-i18n-Hungarian-3.3.1-1.noarch.rpm
kde-i18n-Italian-3.3.1-1.noarch.rpm
kde-i18n-Japanese-3.3.1-1.noarch.rpm
kde-i18n-Polish-3.3.1-1.noarch.rpm
kde-i18n-Portuguese-3.3.1-1.noarch.rpm
kde-i18n-Romanian-3.3.1-1.noarch.rpm
kde-i18n-Russian-3.3.1-1.noarch.rpm
kde-i18n-Slovak-3.3.1-1.noarch.rpm
kde-i18n-Slovenian-3.3.1-1.noarch.rpm
kde-i18n-Spanish-3.3.1-1.noarch.rpm
kde-i18n-Swedish-3.3.1-1.noarch.rpm
kde-i18n-Turkish-3.3.1-1.noarch.rpm
openoffice.org-i18n-1.1.2-11.5.fc3.i386.rpm
============================================
I'm actually quite frightened to remove anything nowadays,
as I ran "yum remove <a package>" some time ago,
and it seemed to remove half my system.
Please remember that some of us (most of us?)
do not really know what we are doing ...
--
Timothy Murphy
e-mail (<80k only): tim /at/ birdsnest.maths.tcd.ie
tel: +353-86-2336090, +353-1-2842366
s-mail: School of Mathematics, Trinity College, Dublin 2, Ireland
7:31 p.m.
Timothy Murphy said:
On Thursday 16 December 2004 16:01, William Hooper wrote:
>> I'm not quite sure what is meant by "full installation",
>> but one does get an awful lot of i18n files if one simply opts for the
>> standard installation.
>
> Perhaps you could elaborate? On my Workstation install there is
> exactly one *i18n* RPM: openoffice.org-i18n. Granted it is a large
> file, but that has already been discussed and IIRC will be broken into
> different RPMs for FC4. That said if you don't need the additional
> languges you can just remove it.
I admit I'm not quite sure where these came from, but I have:
============================================
[tim@alfred ~]$ grep i18n /var/log/rpmpkgs
kde-i18n-Brazil-3.3.1-1.noarch.rpm
kde-i18n-British-3.3.1-1.noarch.rpm
I notice these are all kde releated, so they aren't installed by default.
That said, the question then becomes what installed them? Was it
selecting KDE during the install or an attempt to install KDE after the
fact? It doesn't appear anything requires these packages, the don't
appear to be in the KDE groups for yum. If I get a chnace later maybe
I'll try running another install and see if it is anaconda.
--
William Hooper
7:41 a.m.
On Friday 17 December 2004 01:31, William Hooper wrote:
>> Perhaps you could elaborate? On my Workstation install
there is
>> exactly one *i18n* RPM: openoffice.org-i18n. Granted it is a large
>> file, but that has already been discussed and IIRC will be broken into
>> different RPMs for FC4. That said if you don't need the additional
>> languges you can just remove it.
>
> I admit I'm not quite sure where these came from, but I have:
> ============================================
> [tim@alfred ~]$ grep i18n /var/log/rpmpkgs
> kde-i18n-Brazil-3.3.1-1.noarch.rpm
> kde-i18n-British-3.3.1-1.noarch.rpm
I notice these are all kde releated, so they aren't installed by default.
I should have confessed that I always upgrade on this SCSI machine,
as Fedora doesn't seem to like my Adaptec chip.
So it wasn't a clean install, as I may have suggested.
My recollection is that at some point in my youth
I was asked during installation to choose between KDE and Gnome,
and I chose KDE, so KDE has been installed ever since.
I've just checked on a more standard machine of mine,
and I don't in fact have all this foreign stuff:
=======================================
[tim@helen ~]$ grep i18n /var/log/rpmpkgs
kde-i18n-British-3.3.1-1.noarch.rpm
openoffice.org-i18n-1.1.2-10.i386.rpm
=======================================
So I had better withdraw my remark.
Actually, it wasn't really a complaint,
as I like the idea that I could get everything in Norwegian if I wanted ...
--
Timothy Murphy
e-mail (<80k only): tim /at/ birdsnest.maths.tcd.ie
tel: +353-86-2336090, +353-1-2842366
s-mail: School of Mathematics, Trinity College, Dublin 2, Ireland
7063
days inactive
7064
days old
19 comments
12 participants
participants (12)
-
Alexandre Oliva -
D. D. Brierton -
Dan Williams -
Harry Putnam -
Jef Spaleta -
Kyrre Ness Sjobak -
Matthew Miller -
Michal Jaegermann -
Noah Silva [Mailing list] -
Poonchezhian P. -
Timothy Murphy -
William Hooper