Féliciano Matias
I don't blame RedHat for not respecting the initial scheduler. I blame RedHat for not fully keeping the promise to open RHLP process.
And I'm pretty sure...the "promise" to have a fully open process wasn't meant for THIS beta cycle. THIS beta cycle is still pretty much the same tradition beta process....yes lets blame red hat for stating an intent to move to a more open process in the FUTURE. And let's also blame them for not just deciding on their own all the details of what that open process should look like before stating their intent. You just don't get it....the opening up isn't just going to happen with a snap of someone's fingers....there is an on-going internal process inside red hat to make it possible to have the 'right' open process in the future....the general community really doesn't need a blow by blow of what that means right now...leave something interesting to research for the author of 'Red Hat: a historical perspective of the most influential technology company of the 21st century, and savior of the human race from the alien invasion of 2073'
And I'm pretty sure you've missed the point of what a more open community project will mean...in the future....it means incorporating community members into the actually development process...people in charge of maintaining packages and doing bugzilla work and working on mundane stuff like install and task based help documentation . Having a daily update as to when the next beta isoset is coming out, for the rest of us spectators who arent directly involved in positions of responsibility for rhl components....isn't really the point of what opening up the process means. Even, in the future, when this development process IS more open, and community members are in positions of responsibility for how rhl is being developed and maintained...whether or not people like myself know with great accuracy when the beta2 iso set is coming is still not going to be important. Now as a beta tester...i'm curious as to when i can expect the next iso...but i certainly don't need to know before its ready.
Once outside package maintainers are inside the rhl process...in later releases/beta phases....there will be a need for those people to have reasonable estimates as a guideline for their own packaging work, if for example there are engineer goals to meet for each beta phase. We betatesters as spectators to that process, will most likely get access to that information too....but we still won't NEED it...and it certainly won't ever be a priority to hand that information to the general community in easily digestable ways...thats a waste of effort..until we have community members in place to be responsible for exactly that sort of general information updating. In the future, there will certainly be room in the redhat eco-system for something like a community editted equivalent to mozillazine to keep the general community abreast of beta development issues. But making bold authoritative estimates in a general way to people who aren't directly responsible for parts of the development effort just succeeds in inspiring the unfortunate and short-sighted usage of words like "shame" "blame" and "promise" when dates start slipping.
-jef"pam_dotfile is actually sort of useful"spaleta
Le ven 29/08/2003 à 00:18, Jef Spaleta a écrit :
Féliciano Matias
I don't blame RedHat for not respecting the initial scheduler. I blame RedHat for not fully keeping the promise to open RHLP process.
[...] .whether or not people like myself know with great accuracy when the beta2 iso set is coming is still not going to be important.
Beta2 release date is not the point. What i don't like, is when RedHat says something and doesn't seem to do it. This hurt the RedHat brand image.
RedHat claim to open the RHLP process but don't like some questions about this process. That's the problem.
RedHat update http://rhl.redhat.com/ and everything is nice now.
-jef"pam_dotfile is actually sort of useful"spaleta
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On 29 Aug 2003 01:44:55 +0200, Féliciano Matias wrote:
Beta2 release date is not the point. What i don't like, is when RedHat says something and doesn't seem to do it. This hurt the RedHat brand image.
RedHat claim to open the RHLP process but don't like some questions about this process. That's the problem.
RedHat update http://rhl.redhat.com/ and everything is nice now.
You would also find reasons to complain if the initial content was still there after a few weeks with the RHLP not proceeding at the pace expected by you. Do you expect wonders? It takes time -- much time -- to complete wonders, especially during a beta cycle -- no, two beta cycles even. And it doesn't look like you realize that.
Another thing is the difference between "rough plans" and "claims". I'm sure that updated web pages will try to avoid misunderstandings in several places with regard to Red Hat's plans. IMO, the initial content at rhl.redhat.com was not detailed/complete enough to answer all specific questions, such as what parts of the development were planned to be opened when and at which level.
If you consider yourself a potential contributor or just someone who is interested in following the RHLP, the most natural thing to do is to participate in the beta program and don't lose contact with development.
Btw, I would not assume that a few users who bug Red Hat employees continously with regard to the stalled rhl.redhat.com site are the primary reason for today's update of the web pages.
That minor update doesn't change anything. It only asks you to practice in patience for some additional time. And even if two third of September 15th passed away without another update, please be patient.
- --
Le ven 29/08/2003 à 02:53, Michael Schwendt a écrit :
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On 29 Aug 2003 01:44:55 +0200, Féliciano Matias wrote:
Beta2 release date is not the point. What i don't like, is when RedHat says something and doesn't seem to do it. This hurt the RedHat brand image.
RedHat claim to open the RHLP process but don't like some questions about this process. That's the problem.
RedHat update http://rhl.redhat.com/ and everything is nice now.
You would also find reasons to complain if the initial content was still there after a few weeks with the RHLP not proceeding at the pace expected by you. Do you expect wonders? It takes time -- much time -- to complete wonders, especially during a beta cycle -- no, two beta cycles even. And it doesn't look like you realize that.
Another thing is the difference between "rough plans" and "claims". I'm sure that updated web pages will try to avoid misunderstandings in several places with regard to Red Hat's plans. IMO, the initial content at rhl.redhat.com was not detailed/complete enough to answer all specific questions, such as what parts of the development were planned to be opened when and at which level.
If you consider yourself a potential contributor or just someone who is interested in following the RHLP, the most natural thing to do is to participate in the beta program and don't lose contact with development.
Btw, I would not assume that a few users who bug Red Hat employees continously with regard to the stalled rhl.redhat.com site are the primary reason for today's update of the web pages.
My intent is not to "bug" RedHat employees. I give my feeling. I have a lot of respect for RedHat. I don't want to "destroy" RedHat. I use RedHat Linux from long time because it is the best distribution from my point of view and RedHat is also the best contributor to the free software. Here we use RHL and we plan to buy some RHEL 3.0 ES (good product, 5 years support, not so expensive, and all RedHat profits will be back to free software).
That minor update doesn't change anything.
Yes and no. At some point i can think it doesn't change anything. But RHLP is now (or it is going to be) an open project. RHLP (will) interact with a community and a +clear+ communication is important.
This page is not for people familiar with RedHat. I trust RedHat about RHLP goals because i know RedHat. But think about new comers. I someone tell me "What's going on in RHLP front ?" i can answer with "they are rethinking some of their initial plans because, among other things, they want to incorporate community suggestions and feedback. Come back September 15th at rhl.redhat.com website for more informations".
This is better than "search through the mailing-list, new informations will append at some point not already known, and don't ask RedHat employees, that "bug" them".
It only asks you to practice in patience for some additional time. And even if two third of September 15th passed away without another update, please be patient.