Testcase Audio Recording Basic (new test case proposal)

[Lukas Ruzicka]

Hello friends of Fedora,

this is the follow up for my previous email which proposes a new test
Desktop test case to cover basic sound recording, because we feel that we
also should test some basic recording, especially in times when many people
need to communicate via online tools.
So far, recording has not been required to be tested.

Please, let me know what you think about this new test.


====
Testcase Audio Recording Basic (test case proposal) Description

This test case tests whether sound can be recorded on Fedora.
Prerequisites

   - If you do not have any sound recording application installed,
install *Gnome
   Sound Recorder* (the gnome-sound-recorder package).
   - Make sure the input sound device is correctly connected to your
   computer, so that you can expect that sound will be recorded, i.e. you have
   a microphone (or any sound producing device) connected to the input of your
   sound adapter.
   - Run *Settings* and navigate to the *Sound* tab. Check that your sound
   device is correctly recognized by the system. In case you have more input
   sound devices, make sure all of these devices are listed.
   - Select a preferred device for input and set the input level using the
   slider and the indicator below to avoid over-excitation of the signal and
   sound distortion.

How to test

   - Start a sound recording application.
   - Record a sound clip of about 10 seconds using the microphone (or
   another sound producing device).
   - Play back the recorded sound.

Expected Results

   - The recorded sound clip is *correctly* recorded and can be played
   back. Note that the quality of the recording depends on many factors, such
   as the quality of the sound adapter, the microphone, the wires used, etc.
   Therefore the sound quality should not be considered a test failing
   criterion unless the quality is much worse than expected.

-- 

Lukáš Růžička

FEDORA QE, RHCE

Red Hat

<https://www.redhat.com>

Purkyňova 115

612 45 Brno - Královo Pole

lruzicka(a)redhat.com
TRIED AND PERSONALLY TESTED, ERGO TRUSTED. <https://redhat.com/trusted>

[Kamil Paral]

On Tue, Jan 19, 2021 at 1:07 PM Lukas Ruzicka <lruzicka(a)redhat.com&gt; wrote:

>  Hello friends of Fedora,
>
>  this is the follow up for my previous email which proposes a new test
>  Desktop test case to cover basic sound recording, because we feel that we
>  also should test some basic recording, especially in times when many people
>  need to communicate via online tools.
>  So far, recording has not been required to be tested.
>
>  Please, let me know what you think about this new test.
>
>
>  ====
>  Testcase Audio Recording Basic (test case proposal) Description
>
>  This test case tests whether sound can be recorded on Fedora.
>  Prerequisites
>
>     - If you do not have any sound recording application installed,
>     install *Gnome Sound Recorder* (the gnome-sound-recorder package).
>
>  
Have you tested whether gnome-sound-recorder works well in KDE and
optionally also other desktops? If not (or if it pulls too many
dependencies), it would be good to suggest an alternative tool as well.


>     - Make sure the input sound device is correctly connected to your
>     computer, so that you can expect that sound will be recorded, i.e. you have
>     a microphone (or any sound producing device) connected to the input of your
>     sound adapter.
>     - Run *Settings* and navigate to the *Sound* tab. Check that your
>     sound device is correctly recognized by the system. In case you have more
>     input sound devices, make sure all of these devices are listed.
>     - Select a preferred device for input and set the input level using
>     the slider and the indicator below to avoid over-excitation of the signal
>     and sound distortion.
>
>  How to test
>
>     - Start a sound recording application.
>     - Record a sound clip of about 10 seconds using the microphone (or
>     another sound producing device).
>     - Play back the recorded sound.
>
>  Expected Results
>
>     - The recorded sound clip is *correctly* recorded and can be played
>     back. Note that the quality of the recording depends on many factors, such
>     as the quality of the sound adapter, the microphone, the wires used, etc.
>     Therefore the sound quality should not be considered a test failing
>     criterion unless the quality is much worse than expected.
>
>  
Except for the note above, LGTM.

Do you intend to propose a new audio recording criterion? I think it has a
reasonable chance of getting accepted.

[Lukas Ruzicka]

>  Have you tested whether gnome-sound-recorder works well in KDE and
>  optionally also other desktops? If not (or if it pulls too many
>  dependencies), it would be good to suggest an alternative tool as well.
>  
No, I haven't tested it and I was thinking about finding an alternative for
KDE. Thanks for reminding me. I will look for it and update the document.



> >
> >    - Make sure the input sound device is correctly connected to your
> >    computer, so that you can expect that sound will be recorded, i.e. you have
> >    a microphone (or any sound producing device) connected to the input of your
> >    sound adapter.
> >    - Run *Settings* and navigate to the *Sound* tab. Check that your
> >    sound device is correctly recognized by the system. In case you have more
> >    input sound devices, make sure all of these devices are listed.
> >    - Select a preferred device for input and set the input level using
> >    the slider and the indicator below to avoid over-excitation of the signal
> >    and sound distortion.
> >
> > How to test
> >
> >    - Start a sound recording application.
> >    - Record a sound clip of about 10 seconds using the microphone (or
> >    another sound producing device).
> >    - Play back the recorded sound.
> >
> > Expected Results
> >
> >    - The recorded sound clip is *correctly* recorded and can be played
> >    back. Note that the quality of the recording depends on many factors, such
> >    as the quality of the sound adapter, the microphone, the wires used, etc.
> >    Therefore the sound quality should not be considered a test failing
> >    criterion unless the quality is much worse than expected.
> >
> >
>  Except for the note above, LGTM.
>
>  Do you intend to propose a new audio recording criterion? I think it has a
>  reasonable chance of getting accepted.
>  
Yes. Then I should probably write one :D



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>  

-- 

Lukáš Růžička

FEDORA QE, RHCE

Red Hat

<https://www.redhat.com>

Purkyňova 115

612 45 Brno - Královo Pole

lruzicka(a)redhat.com
TRIED AND PERSONALLY TESTED, ERGO TRUSTED. <https://redhat.com/trusted>

[Lukas Ruzicka]

On Thu, Jan 21, 2021 at 10:04 AM Lukas Ruzicka <lruzicka(a)redhat.com&gt; wrote:

>  Have you tested whether gnome-sound-recorder works well in KDE and
> > optionally also other desktops? If not (or if it pulls too many
> > dependencies), it would be good to suggest an alternative tool as well.
> >
>  
So, now I have found the KDE recording tool - KWave. I have tested it and
works ok for the purposes of the test. I am updating the steps in the
proposal to:

If you do not have any sound recording application installed, install *Gnome
Sound Recorder* (the gnome-sound-recorder package) on GNOME or *KWave* (the
kwave package) on KDE.


>  _______________________________________________
>  test mailing list -- test(a)lists.fedoraproject.org
>  To unsubscribe send an email to test-leave(a)lists.fedoraproject.org
>  Fedora Code of Conduct:
>  https://docs.fedoraproject.org/en-US/project/code-of-conduct/
>  List Guidelines: https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Mailing_list_guidelines
>  List Archives:
>  https://lists.fedoraproject.org/archives/list/[e-mail]
>  
>  --
>
>  Lukáš Růžička
>
>  FEDORA QE, RHCE
>
>  Red Hat
>
>  <https://www.redhat.com>
>
>  Purkyňova 115
>
>  612 45 Brno - Královo Pole
>
>  lruzicka(a)redhat.com
>  TRIED AND PERSONALLY TESTED, ERGO TRUSTED. <https://redhat.com/trusted>
>  

-- 

Lukáš Růžička

FEDORA QE, RHCE

Red Hat

<https://www.redhat.com>

Purkyňova 115

612 45 Brno - Královo Pole

lruzicka(a)redhat.com
TRIED AND PERSONALLY TESTED, ERGO TRUSTED. <https://redhat.com/trusted>

[Kamil Paral]

On Thu, Jan 21, 2021 at 11:24 AM Lukas Ruzicka <lruzicka(a)redhat.com&gt; wrote:

>  On Thu, Jan 21, 2021 at 10:04 AM Lukas Ruzicka <lruzicka(a)redhat.com&gt;
>  wrote:
>
> > Have you tested whether gnome-sound-recorder works well in KDE and
> >> optionally also other desktops? If not (or if it pulls too many
> >> dependencies), it would be good to suggest an alternative tool as well.
> >>
> >
>  So, now I have found the KDE recording tool - KWave. I have tested it and
>  works ok for the purposes of the test. I am updating the steps in the
>  proposal to:
>
>  If you do not have any sound recording application installed, install *Gnome
>  Sound Recorder* (the gnome-sound-recorder package) on GNOME or *KWave*
>  (the kwave package) on KDE.
>  
I believe we should move away from desktop tribalism, if possible. If one
tool works well on all desktops, recommend that one, regardless of its name
or library toolkit used. Of course ideally such a tool shouldn't pull half
of some desktop with it as dependencies (as KWave does), and should have a
reasonably newcomer friendly UI. It would also make the instructions sound
better, currently it seems like we only care about GNOME and KDE.

After playing with this a bit (on my GNOME desktop and in a KDE VM), I'd
say that gnome-sound-recorder is the best universal application to
recommend, it has minimal dependencies and a very straightforward UI. An
alternative could be Audacity, which has a bit more dependencies but still
nothing too large, and while it's a professional editor, it's UI to start
and playback a recording is still simpler than in KWave.

So, what about something like:
"Install any sound recording application you're familiar with. If you've
never worked with any, the GNOME Sound Recorder (`gnome-sound-recorder`
package) is small in size and simple to use. Alternatively, Audacity
(`audacity` package) is a popular full-featured audio editor which can also
easily capture sound from your microphone."

I didn't try too many available sound recording applications, perhaps there
are even better tools, but the mentioned ones are OK.

[Neal Gompa]

On Thu, Jan 21, 2021 at 6:15 AM Kamil Paral <kparal(a)redhat.com&gt; wrote:
>  On Thu, Jan 21, 2021 at 11:24 AM Lukas Ruzicka <lruzicka(a)redhat.com&gt; wrote:
> >
> >
> > On Thu, Jan 21, 2021 at 10:04 AM Lukas Ruzicka <lruzicka(a)redhat.com&gt; wrote:
> >>>
> >>> Have you tested whether gnome-sound-recorder works well in KDE and optionally
> also other desktops? If not (or if it pulls too many dependencies), it would be good to
> suggest an alternative tool as well.
> >
> >
> > So, now I have found the KDE recording tool - KWave. I have tested it and works ok
> for the purposes of the test. I am updating the steps in the proposal to:
> >
> > If you do not have any sound recording application installed, install Gnome Sound
> Recorder (the gnome-sound-recorder package) on GNOME or KWave (the kwave package) on KDE.
>
>
>  I believe we should move away from desktop tribalism, if possible. If one tool works well
> on all desktops, recommend that one, regardless of its name or library toolkit used. Of
> course ideally such a tool shouldn't pull half of some desktop with it as dependencies
> (as KWave does), and should have a reasonably newcomer friendly UI. It would also make the
> instructions sound better, currently it seems like we only care about GNOME and KDE.
>  
GNOME applications pull in most of the GNOME desktop as dependencies.
Properly developed KDE applications will pull in the KF5 libraries and
occasionally some Plasma libraries. That's just how it goes. It is
also unrealistic to expect GNOME applications to work fully "to spec"
on KDE because KDE does not provide all the D-Bus interfaces and
services that GNOME does. We can and do have quirks when applications
are transplanted from one desktop environment to another, if the
underlying frameworks don't handle this well. While most of the KDE
frameworks adapt well to a non-KDE environment, it's rare that GNOME
applications fully do, especially ones that depend on things like
gnome-settings-daemon, gnome-shell, or gnome-control-center. In the
case of gnome-sound-recorder, it'll be fine as it's quite simple. But
if you were using something like the GNOME screencast app, that would
fail in KDE. Note that I'm specifically saying "GNOME applications".
Plain GTK applications are generally fine on Plasma.

If you want to endorse a cross-desktop tool for testing, I would
suggest Audacity. It's simple, powerful, and known to work on all
desktops. It also standardizes the test and minimizes the variables
for validation.



-- 
真実はいつも一つ！/ Always, there's only one truth!

[Lukas Ruzicka]

On Thu, Jan 21, 2021 at 12:30 PM Neal Gompa <ngompa13(a)gmail.com&gt; wrote:

>  On Thu, Jan 21, 2021 at 6:15 AM Kamil Paral <kparal(a)redhat.com&gt;
> wrote:
>  >
>  > On Thu, Jan 21, 2021 at 11:24 AM Lukas Ruzicka <lruzicka(a)redhat.com&gt;
>  wrote:
>  >>
>  >>
>  >> On Thu, Jan 21, 2021 at 10:04 AM Lukas Ruzicka <lruzicka(a)redhat.com&gt;
>  wrote:
>  >>>>
>  >>>> Have you tested whether gnome-sound-recorder works well in KDE and
>  optionally also other desktops? If not (or if it pulls too many
>  dependencies), it would be good to suggest an alternative tool as well.
>  >>
>  >>
>  >
>
>  If you want to endorse a cross-desktop tool for testing, I would
>  suggest Audacity. It's simple, powerful, and known to work on all
>  desktops. It also standardizes the test and minimizes the variables
>  for validation.
>
>
>  
Ok, let's make it Audacity.

The corrected text now looks:

Install any sound recording application you're familiar with. If you've
never worked with any, *Audacity* (the audacity package) is a popular
full-featured audio editor which can also easily capture sound from your
microphone.



>  --
>  真実はいつも一つ！/ Always, there's only one truth!
>  _______________________________________________
>  test mailing list -- test(a)lists.fedoraproject.org
>  To unsubscribe send an email to test-leave(a)lists.fedoraproject.org
>  Fedora Code of Conduct:
>  https://docs.fedoraproject.org/en-US/project/code-of-conduct/
>  List Guidelines: https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Mailing_list_guidelines
>  List Archives:
>  https://lists.fedoraproject.org/archives/list/[e-mail]
>  

-- 

Lukáš Růžička

FEDORA QE, RHCE

Red Hat

<https://www.redhat.com>

Purkyňova 115

612 45 Brno - Královo Pole

lruzicka(a)redhat.com
TRIED AND PERSONALLY TESTED, ERGO TRUSTED. <https://redhat.com/trusted>

[Neal Gompa]

On Thu, Jan 21, 2021 at 6:59 AM Lukas Ruzicka <lruzicka(a)redhat.com&gt; wrote:

>  On Thu, Jan 21, 2021 at 12:30 PM Neal Gompa <ngompa13(a)gmail.com&gt; wrote:
>
> > On Thu, Jan 21, 2021 at 6:15 AM Kamil Paral <kparal(a)redhat.com&gt; wrote:
> > >
> > > On Thu, Jan 21, 2021 at 11:24 AM Lukas Ruzicka <lruzicka(a)redhat.com&gt;
> > wrote:
> > >>
> > >>
> > >> On Thu, Jan 21, 2021 at 10:04 AM Lukas Ruzicka <lruzicka(a)redhat.com&gt;
> > wrote:
> > >>>>
> > >>>> Have you tested whether gnome-sound-recorder works well in KDE and
> > optionally also other desktops? If not (or if it pulls too many
> > dependencies), it would be good to suggest an alternative tool as well.
> > >>
> > >>
> > >
> >
> > If you want to endorse a cross-desktop tool for testing, I would
> > suggest Audacity. It's simple, powerful, and known to work on all
> > desktops. It also standardizes the test and minimizes the variables
> > for validation.
> >
> >
> >
>  Ok, let's make it Audacity.
>
>  The corrected text now looks:
>
>  Install any sound recording application you're familiar with. If you've
>  never worked with any, *Audacity* (the audacity package) is a popular
>  full-featured audio editor which can also easily capture sound from your
>  microphone.
>
>  
Works for me!


-- 
真実はいつも一つ！/ Always, there's only one truth!

[Brandon Nielsen]

On 1/21/21 6:01 AM, Neal Gompa wrote:
>  On Thu, Jan 21, 2021 at 6:59 AM Lukas Ruzicka <lruzicka(a)redhat.com
>
>  <mailto:[e-mail]>> wrote:
>  
>  
>  
>      On Thu, Jan 21, 2021 at 12:30 PM Neal Gompa <ngompa13(a)gmail.com
>      <mailto:[e-mail]>> wrote:
>  
>          On Thu, Jan 21, 2021 at 6:15 AM Kamil Paral <kparal(a)redhat.com
>          <mailto:[e-mail]>> wrote:
>           >
>           > On Thu, Jan 21, 2021 at 11:24 AM Lukas Ruzicka
>          <lruzicka(a)redhat.com <mailto:[e-mail]>> wrote:
>           >>
>           >>
>           >> On Thu, Jan 21, 2021 at 10:04 AM Lukas Ruzicka
>          <lruzicka(a)redhat.com <mailto:[e-mail]>> wrote:
>           >>>>
>           >>>> Have you tested whether gnome-sound-recorder works well in
>          KDE and optionally also other desktops? If not (or if it pulls
>          too many dependencies), it would be good to suggest an
>          alternative tool as well.
>           >>
>           >>
>           >
>  
>          If you want to endorse a cross-desktop tool for testing, I would
>          suggest Audacity. It's simple, powerful, and known to work on all
>          desktops. It also standardizes the test and minimizes the variables
>          for validation.
>  
>  
>  
>      Ok, let's make it Audacity.
>  
>      The corrected text now looks:
>  
>      Install any sound recording application you're familiar with. If
>      you've never worked with any, *Audacity* (the |audacity| package) is
>      a popular full-featured audio editor which can also easily capture
>      sound from your microphone.
>  
>  
>  
>  Works for me!
>   
I love Audacity, but it feels a little unloved on Fedora[0]. I have had 
issues with 2.3.3 (the currently packaged version) crashing[1].

[0] - https://bugzilla.redhat.com/show_bug.cgi?id=1836497
[1] - https://bugzilla.redhat.com/show_bug.cgi?id=1873051

[Kamil Paral]

On Thu, Jan 21, 2021 at 12:30 PM Neal Gompa <ngompa13(a)gmail.com&gt; wrote:

>  GNOME applications pull in most of the GNOME desktop as
> dependencies.
>  Properly developed KDE applications will pull in the KF5 libraries and
>  occasionally some Plasma libraries. That's just how it goes. It is
>  also unrealistic to expect GNOME applications to work fully "to spec"
>  on KDE because KDE does not provide all the D-Bus interfaces and
>  services that GNOME does. We can and do have quirks when applications
>  are transplanted from one desktop environment to another, if the
>  underlying frameworks don't handle this well. While most of the KDE
>  frameworks adapt well to a non-KDE environment, it's rare that GNOME
>  applications fully do, especially ones that depend on things like
>  gnome-settings-daemon, gnome-shell, or gnome-control-center. In the
>  case of gnome-sound-recorder, it'll be fine as it's quite simple. But
>  if you were using something like the GNOME screencast app, that would
>  fail in KDE. Note that I'm specifically saying "GNOME applications".
>  Plain GTK applications are generally fine on Plasma.
>  
Neal, you're doing a great job in Fedora, but this made me somewhat angry.
Because I *did* spend the time yesterday, installed KDE in a VM from
scratch, and tested gnome-sound-recorder, audacity and kwave in it. And
sounds like you haven't. Gnome-sound-recorder only pulls in gjs and
libhand1, and that's *all*. It's the most minimal application I could find.
I also tested its functionality, it worked without issues. I stand by my
opinion that this is the best sound recorder to recommend. Your reaction is
the tribalism I was talking about, negatively reacting to anything that has
"GNOME" or "K" in the name.

Audacity is OK, but it's UI is quite old, it crashes every time I close it,
and it pulls more dependencies (11 more packages in KDE). It's a decent
fallback option, but I wouldn't recommend it as the first one.

KWave pulls a zillion packages on GNOME systems (over 50 packages) and it's
UI is the worst of the three, at least from a beginner perspective.


>  If you want to endorse a cross-desktop tool for testing, I would
>  suggest Audacity. It's simple, powerful, and known to work on all
>  desktops. It also standardizes the test and minimizes the variables
>  for validation.
>  
Sigh, this is just a testcase. We don't "endorse" it or place it anywhere
visible. It's just a hint for anyone helping us test releases (which is our
core QA team plus a handful more people from time to time; at most this
will be read by 20 people during a testday) to be aware of a small and
simple application to record sound, in case they don't know any.

[Kamil Paral]

On Fri, Jan 22, 2021 at 8:00 AM Kamil Paral <kparal(a)redhat.com&gt; wrote:

>  Your reaction is the tribalism I was talking about, negatively
> reacting to
>  anything that has "GNOME" or "K" in the name.
>  
As an exercise, imagine the application is not called the GNOME Sound
Recorder, but a Fred's Sound Recorder instead. I don't think we'd be having
this conversation at all, in that case.

[Lukas Ruzicka]

>  As an exercise, imagine the application is not called the GNOME
> Sound
>  Recorder, but a Fred's Sound Recorder instead. I don't think we'd be having
>  this conversation at all, in that case.
>  
I have been testing the new respin of Workstation and must confirm that
Audacity keeps crashing upon exiting. This somehow does not look too good
in testing, so we might want to recommend more applications after all.



>  _______________________________________________
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>  To unsubscribe send an email to test-leave(a)lists.fedoraproject.org
>  Fedora Code of Conduct:
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>  

-- 

Lukáš Růžička

FEDORA QE, RHCE

Red Hat

<https://www.redhat.com>

Purkyňova 115

612 45 Brno - Královo Pole

lruzicka(a)redhat.com
TRIED AND PERSONALLY TESTED, ERGO TRUSTED. <https://redhat.com/trusted>

[Kamil Paral]

On Fri, Jan 22, 2021 at 2:30 PM Lukas Ruzicka <lruzicka(a)redhat.com&gt; wrote:

>  As an exercise, imagine the application is not called the GNOME Sound
> > Recorder, but a Fred's Sound Recorder instead. I don't think we'd be
> having
> > this conversation at all, in that case.
> >
>
>  I have been testing the new respin of Workstation and must confirm that
>  Audacity keeps crashing upon exiting. This somehow does not look too good
>  in testing, so we might want to recommend more applications after all.
>  
Well, put the gnome-sound-recorder in there, because it's the best tool we
found. You can put audacity as a second option, the crash is not really
relevant to this test case and it will get sorted out eventually (even
though I agree it doesn't look good, so if you have strong feelings about
it, you can look for additional apps - but I don't think that's worth the
time).

[Neal Gompa]

On Fri, Jan 22, 2021 at 2:01 AM Kamil Paral <kparal(a)redhat.com&gt; wrote:
>  On Thu, Jan 21, 2021 at 12:30 PM Neal Gompa <ngompa13(a)gmail.com&gt; wrote:
> >
> > GNOME applications pull in most of the GNOME desktop as dependencies.
> > Properly developed KDE applications will pull in the KF5 libraries and
> > occasionally some Plasma libraries. That's just how it goes. It is
> > also unrealistic to expect GNOME applications to work fully "to spec"
> > on KDE because KDE does not provide all the D-Bus interfaces and
> > services that GNOME does. We can and do have quirks when applications
> > are transplanted from one desktop environment to another, if the
> > underlying frameworks don't handle this well. While most of the KDE
> > frameworks adapt well to a non-KDE environment, it's rare that GNOME
> > applications fully do, especially ones that depend on things like
> > gnome-settings-daemon, gnome-shell, or gnome-control-center. In the
> > case of gnome-sound-recorder, it'll be fine as it's quite simple. But
> > if you were using something like the GNOME screencast app, that would
> > fail in KDE. Note that I'm specifically saying "GNOME applications".
> > Plain GTK applications are generally fine on Plasma.
>
>
>  Neal, you're doing a great job in Fedora, but this made me somewhat angry. Because I
> *did* spend the time yesterday, installed KDE in a VM from scratch, and tested
> gnome-sound-recorder, audacity and kwave in it. And sounds like you haven't.
> Gnome-sound-recorder only pulls in gjs and libhand1, and that's *all*. It's the
> most minimal application I could find. I also tested its functionality, it worked without
> issues. I stand by my opinion that this is the best sound recorder to recommend. Your
> reaction is the tribalism I was talking about, negatively reacting to anything that has
> "GNOME" or "K" in the name.
>  
I specifically said that GNOME Sound Recorder is fine because it's
simple, but the majority of GNOME applications are *not*. But I was
responding *specifically* to your comment about tribalism, because you
suggested that all desktop applications for each desktop work fine on
other desktops. That's not true, especially for highly integrated
applications (which a lot of GNOME ones *are*).

>  Audacity is OK, but it's UI is quite old, it crashes every time I
> close it, and it pulls more dependencies (11 more packages in KDE). It's a decent
> fallback option, but I wouldn't recommend it as the first one.
>  
I'm surprised that it crashes so much. That's unfortunate...

>  KWave pulls a zillion packages on GNOME systems (over 50 packages)
> and it's UI is the worst of the three, at least from a beginner perspective. 
KDE applications have larger dependency webs because of the KF5
libraries, I'm not surprised. As for the UI, yeah, I don't disagree
there. It's closer to Audacity than a simple sound recorder.



-- 
真実はいつも一つ！/ Always, there's only one truth!

[Kamil Paral]

On Fri, Jan 22, 2021 at 3:01 PM Neal Gompa <ngompa13(a)gmail.com&gt; wrote:

>  On Fri, Jan 22, 2021 at 2:01 AM Kamil Paral <kparal(a)redhat.com&gt;
> wrote:
>  >
>  > On Thu, Jan 21, 2021 at 12:30 PM Neal Gompa <ngompa13(a)gmail.com&gt; wrote:
>  >>
>  >> GNOME applications pull in most of the GNOME desktop as dependencies.
>  >> Properly developed KDE applications will pull in the KF5 libraries and
>  >> occasionally some Plasma libraries. That's just how it goes. It is
>  >> also unrealistic to expect GNOME applications to work fully "to spec"
>  >> on KDE because KDE does not provide all the D-Bus interfaces and
>  >> services that GNOME does. We can and do have quirks when applications
>  >> are transplanted from one desktop environment to another, if the
>  >> underlying frameworks don't handle this well. While most of the KDE
>  >> frameworks adapt well to a non-KDE environment, it's rare that GNOME
>  >> applications fully do, especially ones that depend on things like
>  >> gnome-settings-daemon, gnome-shell, or gnome-control-center. In the
>  >> case of gnome-sound-recorder, it'll be fine as it's quite simple. But
>  >> if you were using something like the GNOME screencast app, that would
>  >> fail in KDE. Note that I'm specifically saying "GNOME
> applications".
>  >> Plain GTK applications are generally fine on Plasma.
>  >
>  >
>  > Neal, you're doing a great job in Fedora, but this made me somewhat
>  angry. Because I *did* spend the time yesterday, installed KDE in a VM from
>  scratch, and tested gnome-sound-recorder, audacity and kwave in it. And
>  sounds like you haven't. Gnome-sound-recorder only pulls in gjs and
>  libhand1, and that's *all*. It's the most minimal application I could find.
>  I also tested its functionality, it worked without issues. I stand by my
>  opinion that this is the best sound recorder to recommend. Your reaction is
>  the tribalism I was talking about, negatively reacting to anything that has
>  "GNOME" or "K" in the name.
>  >
>
>  I specifically said that GNOME Sound Recorder is fine because it's
>  simple, 

I must admit I missed that particular sentence in the middle, sorry.


>  but the majority of GNOME applications are *not*. But I was
>  responding *specifically* to your comment about tribalism, because you
>  suggested that all desktop applications for each desktop work fine on
>  other desktops. 

Ugh... I didn't say that. And I re-read my emails again, just to be sure.

I do feel that the common advice of "install app X if you're on GNOME, or
app Y if you're on KDE" (just because X uses GTK and Y uses QT, or a
similar reason) harms the whole ecosystem. That's why I said I want to
avoid this style of instructions, find a tool that works best everywhere,
and recommend it universally (and then we don't even need to name the
desktops, which might feel like we're looking down on the other ones).
Quote:
"If one tool works well on all desktops, recommend that one, regardless of
its name or library toolkit used. Of course ideally such a tool shouldn't
pull half of some desktop with it as dependencies (as KWave does), and
should have a reasonably newcomer friendly UI. It would also make the
instructions sound better, currently it seems like we only care about GNOME
and KDE."



>  That's not true, especially for highly integrated
>  applications (which a lot of GNOME ones *are*).
>  
And KDE ones as well. Yes, I'm not arguing. I'm trying to avoid
recommending those ones, if there's a universal alternative.

[Neal Gompa]

On Fri, Jan 22, 2021 at 9:19 AM Kamil Paral <kparal(a)redhat.com&gt; wrote:
>  On Fri, Jan 22, 2021 at 3:01 PM Neal Gompa <ngompa13(a)gmail.com&gt; wrote:
> >
> > On Fri, Jan 22, 2021 at 2:01 AM Kamil Paral <kparal(a)redhat.com&gt; wrote:
> > >
> > > On Thu, Jan 21, 2021 at 12:30 PM Neal Gompa <ngompa13(a)gmail.com&gt; wrote:
> > >>
> > >> GNOME applications pull in most of the GNOME desktop as dependencies.
> > >> Properly developed KDE applications will pull in the KF5 libraries and
> > >> occasionally some Plasma libraries. That's just how it goes. It is
> > >> also unrealistic to expect GNOME applications to work fully "to
> spec"
> > >> on KDE because KDE does not provide all the D-Bus interfaces and
> > >> services that GNOME does. We can and do have quirks when applications
> > >> are transplanted from one desktop environment to another, if the
> > >> underlying frameworks don't handle this well. While most of the KDE
> > >> frameworks adapt well to a non-KDE environment, it's rare that GNOME
> > >> applications fully do, especially ones that depend on things like
> > >> gnome-settings-daemon, gnome-shell, or gnome-control-center. In the
> > >> case of gnome-sound-recorder, it'll be fine as it's quite simple.
> But
> > >> if you were using something like the GNOME screencast app, that would
> > >> fail in KDE. Note that I'm specifically saying "GNOME
> applications".
> > >> Plain GTK applications are generally fine on Plasma.
> > >
> > >
> > > Neal, you're doing a great job in Fedora, but this made me somewhat angry.
> Because I *did* spend the time yesterday, installed KDE in a VM from scratch, and tested
> gnome-sound-recorder, audacity and kwave in it. And sounds like you haven't.
> Gnome-sound-recorder only pulls in gjs and libhand1, and that's *all*. It's the
> most minimal application I could find. I also tested its functionality, it worked without
> issues. I stand by my opinion that this is the best sound recorder to recommend. Your
> reaction is the tribalism I was talking about, negatively reacting to anything that has
> "GNOME" or "K" in the name.
> > >
> >
> > I specifically said that GNOME Sound Recorder is fine because it's
> > simple,
>
>
>  I must admit I missed that particular sentence in the middle, sorry.
>
> >
> > but the majority of GNOME applications are *not*. But I was
> > responding *specifically* to your comment about tribalism, because you
> > suggested that all desktop applications for each desktop work fine on
> > other desktops.
>
>
>  Ugh... I didn't say that. And I re-read my emails again, just to be sure.
>
>  I do feel that the common advice of "install app X if you're on GNOME, or app Y
> if you're on KDE" (just because X uses GTK and Y uses QT, or a similar reason)
> harms the whole ecosystem. That's why I said I want to avoid this style of
> instructions, find a tool that works best everywhere, and recommend it universally (and
> then we don't even need to name the desktops, which might feel like we're looking
> down on the other ones). Quote:
>  "If one tool works well on all desktops, recommend that one, regardless of its name
> or library toolkit used. Of course ideally such a tool shouldn't pull half of some
> desktop with it as dependencies (as KWave does), and should have a reasonably newcomer
> friendly UI. It would also make the instructions sound better, currently it seems like we
> only care about GNOME and KDE."
>  
Hmm, that's more fair than I read it as originally. I'm mostly annoyed
because I've had people complain to me why X GNOME app doesn't work on
KDE (e.g. GNOME screen recording app on Plasma Wayland). It's
frustrating how we've regressed on inter-desktop interoperability over
the past few years...



-- 
真実はいつも一つ！/ Always, there's only one truth!

[Lukas Ruzicka]

The latest version of the proposal:

Testcase Audio Recording (change proposal) Description

This test case tests whether sound can be recorded on Fedora.
Prerequisites

   - Install any sound recording application you're familiar with. If
   you've never worked with any, you can try the *Gnome Sound Recorder*
   (the gnome-sound-recorder package), a very simplistic and lightweight
   application. Alternatively, you can try other applications, such as
   *Audacity* (the audacity package).
   - Make sure the input sound device is correctly connected to your
   computer, so that you can expect that sound will be recorded, i.e. you have
   a microphone (or any sound producing device) connected to the input of your
   sound adapter.
   - Run *Settings* and navigate to the *Sound* tab. Check that your sound
   device is correctly recognized by the system. In case you have more input
   sound devices, make sure all of these devices are listed.
   - Select a preferred device for input and set the input level using the
   slider and the indicator below to avoid over-excitation of the signal and
   sound distortion.

How to test

   - Start a sound recording application.
   - Record a sound clip of about 10 seconds using the microphone (or
   another sound producing device).
   - Play back the recorded sound.

Expected Results

   - The recorded sound clip is *correctly* recorded and can be played
   back. Note that the quality of the recording depends on many factors, such
   as the quality of the sound adapter, the microphone, the wires used, etc.
   Therefore the sound quality should not be considered a test failing
   criterion unless it is much worse than expected.




On Fri, Jan 22, 2021 at 3:33 PM Neal Gompa <ngompa13(a)gmail.com&gt; wrote:

>  On Fri, Jan 22, 2021 at 9:19 AM Kamil Paral <kparal(a)redhat.com&gt;
> wrote:
>  >
>  > On Fri, Jan 22, 2021 at 3:01 PM Neal Gompa <ngompa13(a)gmail.com&gt; wrote:
>  >>
>  >> On Fri, Jan 22, 2021 at 2:01 AM Kamil Paral <kparal(a)redhat.com&gt; wrote:
>  >> >
>  >> > On Thu, Jan 21, 2021 at 12:30 PM Neal Gompa <ngompa13(a)gmail.com&gt;
>  wrote:
>  >> >>
>  >> >> GNOME applications pull in most of the GNOME desktop as dependencies.
>  >> >> Properly developed KDE applications will pull in the KF5 libraries
>  and
>  >> >> occasionally some Plasma libraries. That's just how it goes. It is
>  >> >> also unrealistic to expect GNOME applications to work fully "to
> spec"
>  >> >> on KDE because KDE does not provide all the D-Bus interfaces and
>  >> >> services that GNOME does. We can and do have quirks when applications
>  >> >> are transplanted from one desktop environment to another, if the
>  >> >> underlying frameworks don't handle this well. While most of the
> KDE
>  >> >> frameworks adapt well to a non-KDE environment, it's rare that
> GNOME
>  >> >> applications fully do, especially ones that depend on things like
>  >> >> gnome-settings-daemon, gnome-shell, or gnome-control-center. In the
>  >> >> case of gnome-sound-recorder, it'll be fine as it's quite
> simple. But
>  >> >> if you were using something like the GNOME screencast app, that would
>  >> >> fail in KDE. Note that I'm specifically saying "GNOME
> applications".
>  >> >> Plain GTK applications are generally fine on Plasma.
>  >> >
>  >> >
>  >> > Neal, you're doing a great job in Fedora, but this made me somewhat
>  angry. Because I *did* spend the time yesterday, installed KDE in a VM from
>  scratch, and tested gnome-sound-recorder, audacity and kwave in it. And
>  sounds like you haven't. Gnome-sound-recorder only pulls in gjs and
>  libhand1, and that's *all*. It's the most minimal application I could find.
>  I also tested its functionality, it worked without issues. I stand by my
>  opinion that this is the best sound recorder to recommend. Your reaction is
>  the tribalism I was talking about, negatively reacting to anything that has
>  "GNOME" or "K" in the name.
>  >> >
>  >>
>  >> I specifically said that GNOME Sound Recorder is fine because it's
>  >> simple,
>  >
>  >
>  > I must admit I missed that particular sentence in the middle, sorry.
>  >
>  >>
>  >> but the majority of GNOME applications are *not*. But I was
>  >> responding *specifically* to your comment about tribalism, because you
>  >> suggested that all desktop applications for each desktop work fine on
>  >> other desktops.
>  >
>  >
>  > Ugh... I didn't say that. And I re-read my emails again, just to be sure.
>  >
>  > I do feel that the common advice of "install app X if you're on GNOME,
>  or app Y if you're on KDE" (just because X uses GTK and Y uses QT, or a
>  similar reason) harms the whole ecosystem. That's why I said I want to
>  avoid this style of instructions, find a tool that works best everywhere,
>  and recommend it universally (and then we don't even need to name the
>  desktops, which might feel like we're looking down on the other ones).
>  Quote:
>  > "If one tool works well on all desktops, recommend that one, regardless
>  of its name or library toolkit used. Of course ideally such a tool
>  shouldn't pull half of some desktop with it as dependencies (as KWave
>  does), and should have a reasonably newcomer friendly UI. It would also
>  make the instructions sound better, currently it seems like we only care
>  about GNOME and KDE."
>  >
>
>  Hmm, that's more fair than I read it as originally. I'm mostly annoyed
>  because I've had people complain to me why X GNOME app doesn't work on
>  KDE (e.g. GNOME screen recording app on Plasma Wayland). It's
>  frustrating how we've regressed on inter-desktop interoperability over
>  the past few years...
>
>
>
>  --
>  真実はいつも一つ！/ Always, there's only one truth!
>  _______________________________________________
>  test mailing list -- test(a)lists.fedoraproject.org
>  To unsubscribe send an email to test-leave(a)lists.fedoraproject.org
>  Fedora Code of Conduct:
>  https://docs.fedoraproject.org/en-US/project/code-of-conduct/
>  List Guidelines: https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Mailing_list_guidelines
>  List Archives:
>  https://lists.fedoraproject.org/archives/list/[e-mail]
>  

-- 

Lukáš Růžička

FEDORA QE, RHCE

Red Hat

<https://www.redhat.com>

Purkyňova 115

612 45 Brno - Královo Pole

lruzicka(a)redhat.com
TRIED AND PERSONALLY TESTED, ERGO TRUSTED. <https://redhat.com/trusted>

[Kamil Paral]

On Fri, Jan 22, 2021 at 5:21 PM Lukas Ruzicka <lruzicka(a)redhat.com&gt; wrote:

>  The latest version of the proposal:
>
>  Testcase Audio Recording (change proposal) Description
>
>  This test case tests whether sound can be recorded on Fedora.
>  Prerequisites
>
>     - Install any sound recording application you're familiar with. If
>     you've never worked with any, you can try the *Gnome Sound Recorder*
>     (the gnome-sound-recorder package), a very simplistic and lightweight
>     application. Alternatively, you can try other applications, such as
>     *Audacity* (the audacity package).
>     - Make sure the input sound device is correctly connected to your
>     computer, so that you can expect that sound will be recorded, i.e. you have
>     a microphone (or any sound producing device) connected to the input of your
>     sound adapter.
>     - Run *Settings* and navigate to the *Sound* tab. Check that your
>     sound device is correctly recognized by the system. In case you have more
>     input sound devices, make sure all of these devices are listed.
>
>  
This looks a bit too specific, you can say something like "Open your
system's sound settings", if you want to provide some universal advice. No
hard feelings, though.


>     - Select a preferred device for input and set the input level using
>     the slider and the indicator below to avoid over-excitation of the signal
>     and sound distortion.
>
>  How to test
>
>     - Start a sound recording application.
>     - Record a sound clip of about 10 seconds using the microphone (or
>     another sound producing device).
>     - Play back the recorded sound.
>
>  Expected Results
>
>     - The recorded sound clip is *correctly* recorded and can be played
>     back. Note that the quality of the recording depends on many factors, such
>     as the quality of the sound adapter, the microphone, the wires used, etc.
>     Therefore the sound quality should not be considered a test failing
>     criterion unless it is much worse than expected.
>
>
>  
LGTM

[Lukas Ruzicka]

On Fri, Jan 22, 2021 at 11:15 PM Kamil Paral <kparal(a)redhat.com&gt; wrote:

>  On Fri, Jan 22, 2021 at 5:21 PM Lukas Ruzicka
> <lruzicka(a)redhat.com&gt; wrote:
>
> > The latest version of the proposal:
> >
> > Testcase Audio Recording (change proposal) Description
> >
> > This test case tests whether sound can be recorded on Fedora.
> > Prerequisites
> >
> >    - Install any sound recording application you're familiar with. If
> >    you've never worked with any, you can try the *Gnome Sound Recorder*
> >    (the gnome-sound-recorder package), a very simplistic and lightweight
> >    application. Alternatively, you can try other applications, such as
> >    *Audacity* (the audacity package).
> >    - Make sure the input sound device is correctly connected to your
> >    computer, so that you can expect that sound will be recorded, i.e. you have
> >    a microphone (or any sound producing device) connected to the input of your
> >    sound adapter.
> >    - Run *Settings* and navigate to the *Sound* tab. Check that your
> >    sound device is correctly recognized by the system. In case you have more
> >    input sound devices, make sure all of these devices are listed.
> >
> >
>  This looks a bit too specific, you can say something like "Open your
>  system's sound settings", if you want to provide some universal advice. No
>  hard feelings, though.
>  
Yeah, will change it.



> >
> >    - Select a preferred device for input and set the input level using
> >    the slider and the indicator below to avoid over-excitation of the signal
> >    and sound distortion.
> >
> > How to test
> >
> >    - Start a sound recording application.
> >    - Record a sound clip of about 10 seconds using the microphone (or
> >    another sound producing device).
> >    - Play back the recorded sound.
> >
> > Expected Results
> >
> >    - The recorded sound clip is *correctly* recorded and can be played
> >    back. Note that the quality of the recording depends on many factors, such
> >    as the quality of the sound adapter, the microphone, the wires used, etc.
> >    Therefore the sound quality should not be considered a test failing
> >    criterion unless it is much worse than expected.
> >
> >
> >
>  LGTM
>
>  _______________________________________________
>  test mailing list -- test(a)lists.fedoraproject.org
>  To unsubscribe send an email to test-leave(a)lists.fedoraproject.org
>  Fedora Code of Conduct:
>  https://docs.fedoraproject.org/en-US/project/code-of-conduct/
>  List Guidelines: https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Mailing_list_guidelines
>  List Archives:
>  https://lists.fedoraproject.org/archives/list/[e-mail]
>  

-- 

Lukáš Růžička

FEDORA QE, RHCE

Red Hat

<https://www.redhat.com>

Purkyňova 115

612 45 Brno - Královo Pole

lruzicka(a)redhat.com
TRIED AND PERSONALLY TESTED, ERGO TRUSTED. <https://redhat.com/trusted>

[Kamil Paral]

On Fri, Jan 22, 2021 at 3:33 PM Neal Gompa <ngompa13(a)gmail.com&gt; wrote:

>  Hmm, that's more fair than I read it as originally.
>  
Alright, the score is 1:1 on misreading each other's comments :-)