Fedora names not to be translated

[Matthew Miller]

Hey everyone. I don't know if this has come up already, but: names of
the new Fedora.next variants should not be translated. That is:

 * Fedora Workstation
 * Fedora Server
 * Fedora Cloud

should stay like that in any language. These are all brands, not
descriptions.

For Fedora Cloud in specific, "Fedora Atomic" should also be
untranslated. 


Thanks!

-- 
Matthew Miller
<mattdm(a)fedoraproject.org&gt;
Fedora Project Leader

[Cheng-Chia Tseng]

Matthew Miller <mattdm(a)fedoraproject.org&gt; 於 2014年11月6日星期四寫道：

>  Hey everyone. I don't know if this has come up already, but:
> names of
>  the new Fedora.next variants should not be translated. That is:
>
>   * Fedora Workstation
>   * Fedora Server
>   * Fedora Cloud
>
>  
But people don't know too much about English in my country. Easy words are
OK while technical terms might be a problem.

It is odd to keep them untranslated as workstation, server and cloud are
all common words in speech.


>  should stay like that in any language. These are all brands, not
>  descriptions.
>
>  For Fedora Cloud in specific, "Fedora Atomic" should also be
>  untranslated.
>
>
>  Thanks!
>
>  --
>  Matthew Miller
>  <mattdm(a)fedoraproject.org <javascript:;>>
>  Fedora Project Leader
>  --
>  trans mailing list
>  trans(a)lists.fedoraproject.org <javascript:;>
>  https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/trans 


-- 
Cheers,
by Cheng-Chia Tseng

[Matthew Miller]

On Thu, Nov 06, 2014 at 06:48:26AM +0800, Cheng-Chia Tseng wrote:
>  > Hey everyone. I don't know if this has come up already, but:
> names of
>  > the new Fedora.next variants should not be translated. That is:
>  >  * Fedora Workstation
>  >  * Fedora Server
>  >  * Fedora Cloud
>  But people don't know too much about English in my country. Easy words are
>  OK while technical terms might be a problem.
>
>  It is odd to keep them untranslated as workstation, server and cloud are
>  all common words in speech. 
That's actually somewhat part of the problem. We want to keep them as
part of the name, not separate merely-descriptive words. Hopefully in
most cases there will be accompanying text which _is_ translatable.


-- 
Matthew Miller
<mattdm(a)fedoraproject.org&gt;
Fedora Project Leader

[Cheng-Chia Tseng]

Matthew Miller <mattdm(a)fedoraproject.org&gt; 於 2014年11月6日星期四寫道：

>  On Thu, Nov 06, 2014 at 06:48:26AM +0800, Cheng-Chia Tseng wrote:
>  > > Hey everyone. I don't know if this has come up already, but: names of
>  > > the new Fedora.next variants should not be translated. That is:
>  > >  * Fedora Workstation
>  > >  * Fedora Server
>  > >  * Fedora Cloud
>  > But people don't know too much about English in my country. Easy words
>  are
>  > OK while technical terms might be a problem.
>  >
>  > It is odd to keep them untranslated as workstation, server and cloud are
>  > all common words in speech.
>
>  That's actually somewhat part of the problem. We want to keep them as
>  part of the name, not separate merely-descriptive words. Hopefully in
>  most cases there will be accompanying text which _is_ translatable. 

That would be better.

By the way, we don't see organization or company use common words as brand
name.

For example, Mozilla use Firefox, Thunderbird as brand name for browser and
mail client. They don't use Mozilla Browser and Mizilla Mail as brand name
in this case.

Keeping words like workstation, server not translated is like to keep words
like browser, mail, office suite untranslated, in my opinion.


>  --
>  Matthew Miller
>  <mattdm(a)fedoraproject.org <javascript:;>>
>  Fedora Project Leader
>  --
>  trans mailing list
>  trans(a)lists.fedoraproject.org <javascript:;>
>  https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/trans 


-- 
Cheers,
by Cheng-Chia Tseng

[Ding Yi Chen]

----- Original Message -----

>  Matthew Miller < mattdm(a)fedoraproject.org > 於 2014年11月6日星期四寫道：
>  > On Thu, Nov 06, 2014 at 06:48:26AM +0800, Cheng-Chia Tseng
> wrote:
>  
>  > > > Hey everyone. I don't know if this has come up already, but: names of
>  
>  > > > the new Fedora.next variants should not be translated. That is:
>  
>  > > > * Fedora Workstation
>  
>  > > > * Fedora Server
>  
>  > > > * Fedora Cloud
>  
>  > > But people don't know too much about English in my country. Easy words
>  > > are
>  
>  > > OK while technical terms might be a problem.
>  
>  > >
>  
>  > > It is odd to keep them untranslated as workstation, server and cloud are
>  
>  > > all common words in speech.
>   
>  > That's actually somewhat part of the problem. We want to
> keep them as
>  
>  > part of the name, not separate merely-descriptive words. Hopefully in
>  
>  > most cases there will be accompanying text which _is_ translatable.
>  
>  That would be better. 
>  By the way, we don't see organization or company use common words
> as brand
>  name. 
Quite a lot companies and organizations (and project names) use common English word. 
e.g. Fedora, Red Hat, Oracle, Apple, ... 
If you want to include the join-words, there are ever more like 
facebook, Microsoft ... 

Some make sense to translate, some don't, it all depends. 
e.g. Red Hat is translated as "紅帽", Firefox is translated as "火狐" 
But I have yet see any convention to translate "Fedora" in Chinese yet. 

IMHO, it is better to let each translation team to decide whether to translate or not. 
They may already have some convention for whether to translate "Fedora" or
"Server". 

If you are worry about web search result, fear not, state-of-art search engine can already

map these together. 

-- 
Ding-Yi Chen 
Software Engineer 
Internationalization Group 
DID: [phone] 
Email: dchen(a)redhat.com 

Red Hat, Asia-Pacific Pty Ltd 
Level 1, 193 North Quay 
Brisbane 4000 
Office: [phone] 
Fax: [phone] 
Website: www.redhat.com 

Red Hat, Inc. 
Facebook: Red Hat APAC | Red Hat Japan | Red Hat Korea | JBoss APAC 
Twitter: Red Hat APAC | Red Hat ANZ 
LinkedIn: Red Hat APAC | JBoss APAC

[Rajesh Ranjan]

On Thu, Nov 6, 2014 at 6:34 AM, Ding Yi Chen <dchen(a)redhat.com&gt; wrote:

>  ------------------------------
>
>
>
>  Matthew Miller <mattdm(a)fedoraproject.org&gt; 於 2014年11月6日星期四寫道：
>
> > On Thu, Nov 06, 2014 at 06:48:26AM +0800, Cheng-Chia Tseng wrote:
> > > > Hey everyone. I don't know if this has come up already, but: names of
> > > > the new Fedora.next variants should not be translated. That is:
> > > >  * Fedora Workstation
> > > >  * Fedora Server
> > > >  * Fedora Cloud
> > > But people don't know too much about English in my country. Easy words
> > are
> > > OK while technical terms might be a problem.
> > >
> > > It is odd to keep them untranslated as workstation, server and cloud are
> > > all common words in speech.
> >
> > That's actually somewhat part of the problem. We want to keep them as
> > part of the name, not separate merely-descriptive words. Hopefully in
> > most cases there will be accompanying text which _is_ translatable.
>
>
>  That would be better.
>
>  By the way, we don't see organization or company use common words as brand
>  name.
>
>
>  Quite a lot companies and organizations (and project names) use common
>  English word.
>  e.g. Fedora, Red Hat, Oracle, Apple, ...
>  If you want to include the join-words, there are ever more like
>  facebook, Microsoft ...
>
>  Some make sense to translate, some don't, it all depends.
>  e.g. Red Hat is translated as "紅帽", Firefox is translated as "火狐"
>  But I have yet see any convention to translate "Fedora" in Chinese yet.
>
>
>  IMHO, it is better to let each translation team to decide whether to
>  translate or not.
>  They may already have some convention for whether to translate "Fedora" or
>  "Server".
>
>  If you are worry about web search result, fear not, state-of-art search
>  engine can already
>  map these together.
>
>
>  
Right! In new context, I also think that there is no valid reason for not
translating (means transliterating) brand names, but discussion should
happen, and good that it is happening. If we consider a brand as a proper
noun and just transliterating it, then what is the problem?

Even in new scenario, somebody is typing searching fedora by writing it in
Hindi eg फेडोरा what a person will get, s/he won't find a page from fedora
website. S/he will get pages from write-up of a journalist instead.

I also know and understand the typical conventional logic that thinks brand
as 'untouchable'. But I would like to request to change the mindset now and
make brand a 'translatable' entry.

Thanks!

Regards,
Rajesh Ranjan

twitter: @kajha <https://twitter.com/kajha>
facebook: rajeshkajha <http://www.facebook.com/rajeshkajha>
www.rajeshranjan.in

[Matthew Miller]

On Thu, Nov 06, 2014 at 08:52:51PM +0530, Rajesh Ranjan wrote:
>  Right! In new context, I also think that there is no valid reason for
> not
>  translating (means transliterating) brand names, but discussion should
>  happen, and good that it is happening. If we consider a brand as a proper
>  noun and just transliterating it, then what is the problem? 
Hi everyone. This is a recommendation from Fedora Legal, not just
something I'm arbitrarily made up. It helps protect the brand globally.

Also, I'm not quite convinced that this request is out of line with
normal practice. Not that this is a company we need to emulate, but on
<http://www.microsoft.com/zh-cn/default.aspx>;, I see "Office",
"Surface", "Phone", "Tablet", and even "Service
Pack" untranslated.
These are all common words, and I'm sure there are plenty of other
examples elsewhere.


-- 
Matthew Miller
<mattdm(a)fedoraproject.org&gt;
Fedora Project Leader

[Roman Spirgi]

We shouldn't take MS as state of the art should we? ;)

Matthew, I think you're right for Western languages but maybe it's
different for Asian languages?!

Cheers
Roman
Am 06.11.2014 20:19 schrieb "Matthew Miller" <mattdm(a)fedoraproject.org&gt;:

>  On Thu, Nov 06, 2014 at 08:52:51PM +0530, Rajesh Ranjan wrote:
>  > Right! In new context, I also think that there is no valid reason for not
>  > translating (means transliterating) brand names, but discussion should
>  > happen, and good that it is happening. If we consider a brand as a proper
>  > noun and just transliterating it, then what is the problem?
>
>  Hi everyone. This is a recommendation from Fedora Legal, not just
>  something I'm arbitrarily made up. It helps protect the brand globally.
>
>  Also, I'm not quite convinced that this request is out of line with
>  normal practice. Not that this is a company we need to emulate, but on
>  <http://www.microsoft.com/zh-cn/default.aspx>;, I see "Office",
>  "Surface", "Phone", "Tablet", and even "Service
> Pack" untranslated.
>  These are all common words, and I'm sure there are plenty of other
>  examples elsewhere.
>
>
>  --
>  Matthew Miller
>  <mattdm(a)fedoraproject.org&gt;
>  Fedora Project Leader
>  --
>  trans mailing list
>  trans(a)lists.fedoraproject.org
>  https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/trans

[Tommy He]

Hi Matthew,

I saw you use the word "recommendation", not “request”. :)
Thus would you mind forwarding our concerns to Legal team, please?

If the result came back as untranslatable, can you please add a comment to
po file for the strings?
I saw this kind of "Comment for translator" in other places before.
Not sure if it's doable for web pages.

Thanks,
Tommy

On Fri, Nov 7, 2014 at 4:12 AM, Roman Spirgi <bigant(a)fedoraproject.org&gt;
wrote:

>  We shouldn't take MS as state of the art should we? ;)
>
>  Matthew, I think you're right for Western languages but maybe it's
>  different for Asian languages?!
>
>  Cheers
>  Roman
>  Am 06.11.2014 20:19 schrieb "Matthew Miller" <mattdm(a)fedoraproject.org&gt;:
>
>  On Thu, Nov 06, 2014 at 08:52:51PM +0530, Rajesh Ranjan wrote:
> > > Right! In new context, I also think that there is no valid reason for
> > not
> > > translating (means transliterating) brand names, but discussion should
> > > happen, and good that it is happening. If we consider a brand as a
> > proper
> > > noun and just transliterating it, then what is the problem?
> >
> > Hi everyone. This is a recommendation from Fedora Legal, not just
> > something I'm arbitrarily made up. It helps protect the brand globally.
> >
> > Also, I'm not quite convinced that this request is out of line with
> > normal practice. Not that this is a company we need to emulate, but on
> > <http://www.microsoft.com/zh-cn/default.aspx>;, I see "Office",
> > "Surface", "Phone", "Tablet", and even "Service
> Pack" untranslated.
> > These are all common words, and I'm sure there are plenty of other
> > examples elsewhere.
> >
> >
> > --
> > Matthew Miller
> > <mattdm(a)fedoraproject.org&gt;
> > Fedora Project Leader
> > --
> > trans mailing list
> > trans(a)lists.fedoraproject.org
> > https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/trans
>
>
>  --
>  trans mailing list
>  trans(a)lists.fedoraproject.org
>  https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/trans
>  


-- 
Take a Deep Breath out of Windows

https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/User:Lovenemesis

[Besnik Bleta]

On 11/07/2014 06:14 AM, Tommy He wrote:
>  Hi Matthew,
>
>  I saw you use the word "recommendation", not “request”. :)
>  Thus would you mind forwarding our concerns to Legal team, please?
>
>  If the result came back as untranslatable, can you please add a comment
>  to po file for the strings? 
That helps, but not always. Translators do not check every single string 
for comments. They refer to them only when stuck.

It would be better to compile a list and publish it for all such terms.

Cheers,
Besnik


P.S. Having them as variables is an known practice, but I'm afraid I'm 
asking too much for now...

[Paul W. Frields]

On Fri, Nov 07, 2014 at 12:13:54PM +0200, Besnik Bleta wrote:
>  On 11/07/2014 06:14 AM, Tommy He wrote:
>  >Hi Matthew,
>  >
>  >I saw you use the word "recommendation", not “request”. :)
>  >Thus would you mind forwarding our concerns to Legal team, please?
>  >
>  >If the result came back as untranslatable, can you please add a comment
>  >to po file for the strings?
>  
>  That helps, but not always. Translators do not check every single string for
>  comments. They refer to them only when stuck.
>  
>  It would be better to compile a list and publish it for all such terms.
>  
>  Cheers,
>  Besnik
>  
>  
>  P.S. Having them as variables is an known practice, but I'm afraid I'm
>  asking too much for now... 
Would this be doing something like this in the templates?

func{_('Try out %s') % ('Fedora Workstation')}

Don't pay attention to actual syntax, just an example.  I'm not
referring to actual web content at this precise moment.  In the
example, translators would receive 'Try out %s' to translate.
Correct?


-- 
Paul W. Frields                                http://paul.frields.org/
  gpg fingerprint: 3DA6 A0AC 6D58 FEC4 0233  5906 ACDB C937 BD11 3717
  http://redhat.com/   -  -  -  -   http://pfrields.fedorapeople.org/
    The open source story continues to grow: http://opensource.com

[Besnik Bleta]

On 11/07/2014 11:39 PM, Paul W. Frields wrote:
>  On Fri, Nov 07, 2014 at 12:13:54PM +0200, Besnik Bleta wrote:
> > On 11/07/2014 06:14 AM, Tommy He wrote:
> >> Hi Matthew,
> >>
> >> I saw you use the word "recommendation", not “request”. :)
> >> Thus would you mind forwarding our concerns to Legal team, please?
> >>
> >> If the result came back as untranslatable, can you please add a comment
> >> to po file for the strings?
> >
> > That helps, but not always. Translators do not check every single string for
> > comments. They refer to them only when stuck.
> >
> > It would be better to compile a list and publish it for all such terms.
> >
> > Cheers,
> > Besnik
> >
> >
> > P.S. Having them as variables is an known practice, but I'm afraid I'm
> > asking too much for now...
>
>  Would this be doing something like this in the templates?
>
>  func{_('Try out %s') % ('Fedora Workstation')}
>
>  Don't pay attention to actual syntax, just an example.  I'm not
>  referring to actual web content at this precise moment.  In the
>  example, translators would receive 'Try out %s' to translate.
>  Correct? 
Correct. Here's a real life example, from another project:

http://transvision.mozfr.org/?recherche=brandShortName&repo=aurora&am...

Besnik

[Matthew Miller]

On Fri, Nov 07, 2014 at 12:14:30PM +0800, Tommy He wrote:
>  I saw you use the word "recommendation", not “request”. :)
>  Thus would you mind forwarding our concerns to Legal team, please? 
Hi Tommy. It is a recommendation for better protecting our brand. I
don't think I quite understand the concerns. As I understand it, if the
name were nonsense like "Fibblesnerki", there would be no problem. Why
does the fact that the name happens to have an English meaning make a
difference here? That seems almost backwards.

The important thing is that this _is_ a name, not just a description,
and should be treated specially.


-- 
Matthew Miller
<mattdm(a)fedoraproject.org&gt;
Fedora Project Leader

[Cheng-Chia Tseng]

Matthew Miller <mattdm(a)fedoraproject.org&gt; 於 2014年11月17日星期一寫道：

>  On Tue, Nov 11, 2014 at 09:09:01PM +0800, Cheng-Chia Tseng wrote:
>  > > It is somehow related to Brand Communication and Journaling.  For news
>  > > reports and other conditions, people can translate the term
> "Microsoft"
>  > > into Chinese.  But for the official documents from Microsoft, they
>  will use
>  > > "Microsoft" only.  So you will not buy a box of software with the
> name
>  "微軟"
>  > > written on it.  It is not their official brand name.
>  > That's not true.
>  >
>  > 微軟 is their official name in Chinese area. They even registered
>  > 微軟 as their trademark.
>
>  Which I don't think we have the resources to do. However, if it feels
>  _really_ important and you want to work with Fedora Design / Brand and
>  Fedora Legal on it it might not be impossible.
>
>  
OK, I got it.

"fedora workstation", "fedora server", "fedora cloud" and
"fedora atomic"
are reserved as brand name and should not be translated. If we want them to
be translated, it would be better to cooperate with Fedora Design/Brand and
Fedora Legel to register those translated names in corresponding regions to
protect our products.

What about "workstation", "server" and "cloud" which does
not not contain
*fedora* in the beginning listed in Download page? They refer to the
corresponding product, but do not use the brand name. I believe using
translated names here could be a guide for local people to find the product
suits him/her better in his/her language. I would like to know what's the
posisition from Fedora Legel on this issue?



>  --
>  Matthew Miller
>  <mattdm(a)fedoraproject.org <javascript:;>>
>  Fedora Project Leader
>  --
>  trans mailing list
>  trans(a)lists.fedoraproject.org <javascript:;>
>  https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/trans 


-- 
Cheers,
by Cheng-Chia Tseng

[Matthew Miller]

On Tue, Nov 18, 2014 at 09:20:20AM +0800, Cheng-Chia Tseng wrote:
>  What about "workstation", "server" and
> "cloud" which does not not contain
>  *fedora* in the beginning listed in Download page? They refer to the
>  corresponding product, but do not use the brand name. I believe using
>  translated names here could be a guide for local people to find the product
>  suits him/her better in his/her language. I would like to know what's the
>  posisition from Fedora Legel on this issue? 
I think translators should use common sense and expertise / judgement,
here. If it's used like a name, and particularly when accompanied with
the new logos, it should probably be used untranslated. If it's
descriptive, though, a translation is natural. If there are places
where the name and logo alone is unhelpful and accompanying translated
text would help users, let's talk to design and websites about making
sure there's a place for it.

-- 
Matthew Miller
<mattdm(a)fedoraproject.org&gt;
Fedora Project Leader

[Ding Yi Chen]

----- Original Message -----
>  On Fri, Nov 07, 2014 at 12:14:30PM +0800, Tommy He wrote:
>  > I saw you use the word "recommendation", not “request”. :)
>  > Thus would you mind forwarding our concerns to Legal team, please?
>  
>  Hi Tommy. It is a recommendation for better protecting our brand. I
>  don't think I quite understand the concerns. As I understand it, if the
>  name were nonsense like "Fibblesnerki", there would be no problem. Why
>  does the fact that the name happens to have an English meaning make a
>  difference here? That seems almost backwards. 
In terms of translation, "Fibblesnerki" will more likely to get translation and
referred as translated
 if it is popular enough.

Same go with "kaspersky", which is translated as "卡巴斯基".
I have to type "卡巴斯基" to get result of kaspersky, because I don't know how
to spell it in the first place.

>  The important thing is that this _is_ a name, not just a
> description,
>  and should be treated specially. 
Name can surely be translated. If such name is famous enough (and long enough), people
will quite like to 
search on translated string.

-- 
Ding-Yi Chen
Software Engineer
Internationalization Group
DID: [phone]
Email: dchen(a)redhat.com

Red Hat, Asia-Pacific Pty Ltd
Level 1, 193 North Quay
Brisbane 4000
Office: [phone]
Fax: [phone]
Website: www.redhat.com

Red Hat, Inc.
Facebook: Red Hat APAC | Red Hat Japan | Red Hat Korea | JBoss APAC
Twitter: Red Hat APAC | Red Hat ANZ
LinkedIn: Red Hat APAC | JBoss APAC

[Ding Yi Chen]

----- Original Message -----
>  On Thu, Nov 06, 2014 at 08:52:51PM +0530, Rajesh Ranjan wrote:
>  > Right! In new context, I also think that there is no valid reason for not
>  > translating (means transliterating) brand names, but discussion should
>  > happen, and good that it is happening. If we consider a brand as a proper
>  > noun and just transliterating it, then what is the problem?
>  
>  Hi everyone. This is a recommendation from Fedora Legal, not just
>  something I'm arbitrarily made up. It helps protect the brand globally.
>  
>  Also, I'm not quite convinced that this request is out of line with
>  normal practice. Not that this is a company we need to emulate, but on
>  <http://www.microsoft.com/zh-cn/default.aspx>;, I see "Office",
>  "Surface", "Phone", "Tablet", and even "Service
> Pack" untranslated.
>  These are all common words, and I'm sure there are plenty of other
>  examples elsewhere. 
Yet "Microsoft" is translated as "微软", though not very consistently.
"Bing" is translated as "必应"

On the other hand,
it is quite common to see some thing like "必应 (Bing)"

-- 
Ding-Yi Chen
Software Engineer
Internationalization Group
DID: [phone]
Email: dchen(a)redhat.com

Red Hat, Asia-Pacific Pty Ltd
Level 1, 193 North Quay
Brisbane 4000
Office: [phone]
Fax: [phone]
Website: www.redhat.com

Red Hat, Inc.
Facebook: Red Hat APAC | Red Hat Japan | Red Hat Korea | JBoss APAC
Twitter: Red Hat APAC | Red Hat ANZ
LinkedIn: Red Hat APAC | JBoss APAC

[Tom Ka Chun Chiu]

It is somehow related to Brand Communication and Journaling.  For news
reports and other conditions, people can translate the term "Microsoft"
into Chinese.  But for the official documents from Microsoft, they will use
"Microsoft" only.  So you will not buy a box of software with the name
"微軟"
written on it.  It is not their official brand name.

2014-11-11 7:57 GMT+08:00 Ding Yi Chen <dchen(a)redhat.com&gt;:

>  ----- Original Message -----
>  > On Thu, Nov 06, 2014 at 08:52:51PM +0530, Rajesh Ranjan wrote:
>  > > Right! In new context, I also think that there is no valid reason for
>  not
>  > > translating (means transliterating) brand names, but discussion should
>  > > happen, and good that it is happening. If we consider a brand as a
>  proper
>  > > noun and just transliterating it, then what is the problem?
>  >
>  > Hi everyone. This is a recommendation from Fedora Legal, not just
>  > something I'm arbitrarily made up. It helps protect the brand globally.
>  >
>  > Also, I'm not quite convinced that this request is out of line with
>  > normal practice. Not that this is a company we need to emulate, but on
>  > <http://www.microsoft.com/zh-cn/default.aspx>;, I see "Office",
>  > "Surface", "Phone", "Tablet", and even "Service
> Pack" untranslated.
>  > These are all common words, and I'm sure there are plenty of other
>  > examples elsewhere.
>
>  Yet "Microsoft" is translated as "微软", though not very consistently.
>  "Bing" is translated as "必应"
>
>  On the other hand,
>  it is quite common to see some thing like "必应 (Bing)"
>
>  --
>  Ding-Yi Chen
>  Software Engineer
>  Internationalization Group
>  DID: [phone]
>  Email: dchen(a)redhat.com
>
>  Red Hat, Asia-Pacific Pty Ltd
>  Level 1, 193 North Quay
>  Brisbane 4000
>  Office: [phone]
>  Fax: [phone]
>  Website: www.redhat.com
>
>  Red Hat, Inc.
>  Facebook: Red Hat APAC | Red Hat Japan | Red Hat Korea | JBoss APAC
>  Twitter: Red Hat APAC | Red Hat ANZ
>  LinkedIn: Red Hat APAC | JBoss APAC
>  --
>  trans mailing list
>  trans(a)lists.fedoraproject.org
>  https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/trans
>

[Cheng-Chia Tseng]

Tom Ka Chun Chiu <tomchiukc(a)gmail.com&gt; 於 2014年11月11日星期二寫道：

>  It is somehow related to Brand Communication and Journaling.  For
> news
>  reports and other conditions, people can translate the term "Microsoft"
>  into Chinese.  But for the official documents from Microsoft, they will use
>  "Microsoft" only.  So you will not buy a box of software with the name
> "微軟"
>  written on it.  It is not their official brand name.
>  
That's not true.

微軟 is their official name in Chinese area. They even registered 微軟 as their
trademark.


>  2014-11-11 7:57 GMT+08:00 Ding Yi Chen <dchen(a)redhat.com
>  <javascript:_e(%7B%7D,'cvml','[e-mail]');>>:
>
> >
> >
> > ----- Original Message -----
> > > On Thu, Nov 06, 2014 at 08:52:51PM +0530, Rajesh Ranjan wrote:
> > > > Right! In new context, I also think that there is no valid reason for
> > not
> > > > translating (means transliterating) brand names, but discussion should
> > > > happen, and good that it is happening. If we consider a brand as a
> > proper
> > > > noun and just transliterating it, then what is the problem?
> > >
> > > Hi everyone. This is a recommendation from Fedora Legal, not just
> > > something I'm arbitrarily made up. It helps protect the brand globally.
> > >
> > > Also, I'm not quite convinced that this request is out of line with
> > > normal practice. Not that this is a company we need to emulate, but on
> > > <http://www.microsoft.com/zh-cn/default.aspx>;, I see "Office",
> > > "Surface", "Phone", "Tablet", and even
> "Service Pack" untranslated.
> > > These are all common words, and I'm sure there are plenty of other
> > > examples elsewhere.
> >
> > Yet "Microsoft" is translated as "微软", though not very
> consistently.
> > "Bing" is translated as "必应"
> >
> > On the other hand,
> > it is quite common to see some thing like "必应 (Bing)"
> >
> > --
> > Ding-Yi Chen
> > Software Engineer
> > Internationalization Group
> > DID: [phone]
> > Email: dchen(a)redhat.com
> > <javascript:_e(%7B%7D,'cvml','[e-mail]');>
> >
> > Red Hat, Asia-Pacific Pty Ltd
> > Level 1, 193 North Quay
> > Brisbane 4000
> > Office: [phone]
> > Fax: [phone]
> > Website: www.redhat.com
> >
> > Red Hat, Inc.
> > Facebook: Red Hat APAC | Red Hat Japan | Red Hat Korea | JBoss APAC
> > Twitter: Red Hat APAC | Red Hat ANZ
> > LinkedIn: Red Hat APAC | JBoss APAC
> > --
> > trans mailing list
> > trans(a)lists.fedoraproject.org
> >
> <javascript:_e(%7B%7D,'cvml','[e-mail]');>
> > https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/trans
> >
>
>  
-- 
Cheers,
by Cheng-Chia Tseng

[Matthew Miller]

On Tue, Nov 11, 2014 at 09:09:01PM +0800, Cheng-Chia Tseng wrote:
>  > It is somehow related to Brand Communication and Journaling. 
> For news
>  > reports and other conditions, people can translate the term "Microsoft"
>  > into Chinese.  But for the official documents from Microsoft, they will use
>  > "Microsoft" only.  So you will not buy a box of software with the name
> "微軟"
>  > written on it.  It is not their official brand name.
>  That's not true.
>  
>  微軟 is their official name in Chinese area. They even registered
>  微軟 as their trademark. 
Which I don't think we have the resources to do. However, if it feels
_really_ important and you want to work with Fedora Design / Brand and
Fedora Legal on it it might not be impossible.



-- 
Matthew Miller
<mattdm(a)fedoraproject.org&gt;
Fedora Project Leader

[Ding Yi Chen]

----- Original Message -----
>  
>  Hi everyone. This is a recommendation from Fedora Legal, not just
>  something I'm arbitrarily made up. It helps protect the brand globally. 
Mmm, a question:

If a pirate intent to steal the identity of Fedora by cloning the official web site and
translated every single word,
what can our legal team deal with him?

-- 
Ding-Yi Chen
Software Engineer
Internationalization Group
DID: [phone]
Email: dchen(a)redhat.com

Red Hat, Asia-Pacific Pty Ltd
Level 1, 193 North Quay
Brisbane 4000
Office: [phone]
Fax: [phone]
Website: www.redhat.com

Red Hat, Inc.
Facebook: Red Hat APAC | Red Hat Japan | Red Hat Korea | JBoss APAC
Twitter: Red Hat APAC | Red Hat ANZ
LinkedIn: Red Hat APAC | JBoss APAC

[Tom Ka Chun Chiu]

Can we use brackets like "Firefox (火狐)"?

So we may have:
 * Fedora Workstation (Fedora工作站)
 * Fedora Server (Fedora伺服器/服務器)
 * Fedora Cloud (Fedora雲)
 * Fedora Atomic (Fedora單元)


2014-11-06 6:48 GMT+08:00 Cheng-Chia Tseng <pswo10680(a)gmail.com&gt;:

>  Matthew Miller <mattdm(a)fedoraproject.org&gt; 於 2014年11月6日星期四寫道：
>
> > Hey everyone. I don't know if this has come up already, but: names of
> > the new Fedora.next variants should not be translated. That is:
> >
> >  * Fedora Workstation
> >  * Fedora Server
> >  * Fedora Cloud
> >
> >
>  But people don't know too much about English in my country. Easy words are
>  OK while technical terms might be a problem.
>
>  It is odd to keep them untranslated as workstation, server and cloud are
>  all common words in speech.
>
>
> > should stay like that in any language. These are all brands, not
> > descriptions.
> >
> > For Fedora Cloud in specific, "Fedora Atomic" should also be
> > untranslated.
> >
> >
> > Thanks!
> >
> > --
> > Matthew Miller
> > <mattdm(a)fedoraproject.org&gt;
> > Fedora Project Leader
> > --
> > trans mailing list
> > trans(a)lists.fedoraproject.org
> > https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/trans
>
>
>
>  --
>  Cheers,
>  by Cheng-Chia Tseng
>
>
>  --
>  trans mailing list
>  trans(a)lists.fedoraproject.org
>  https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/trans
>

[Matthew Miller]

On Thu, Nov 06, 2014 at 07:00:44PM +0800, Tom Ka Chun Chiu wrote:
>  Can we use brackets like "Firefox (火狐)"?
>  So we may have:
>   * Fedora Workstation (Fedora工作站)
>   * Fedora Server (Fedora伺服器/服務器)
>   * Fedora Cloud (Fedora雲)
>   * Fedora Atomic (Fedora單元) 
In this case, I think the parenthetical part should be clearly
descriptive and not an alternate name: Fedora Workstation -> "Fedora
desktop for software developers"; Fedora Cloud -> "Fedora for cloud
computing"; Fedora Server -> "Fedora for easy deployment of server
roles".

-- 
Matthew Miller
<mattdm(a)fedoraproject.org&gt;
Fedora Project Leader

[Alick Zhao]

2014-11-06 5:18 GMT+08:00 Matthew Miller <mattdm(a)fedoraproject.org&gt;:
>  Hey everyone. I don't know if this has come up already, but:
> names of
>  the new Fedora.next variants should not be translated. That is:
>
>   * Fedora Workstation
>   * Fedora Server
>   * Fedora Cloud
>
>  should stay like that in any language. These are all brands, not
>  descriptions.
>  
I am not sure what case it is in other languages, but in Chinese most brands
*are* translated, such as Red Hat, Canon, etc.

Regards,
Alick

[Rajesh Ranjan]

On Thu, Nov 6, 2014 at 2:48 AM, Matthew Miller <mattdm(a)fedoraproject.org&gt;
wrote:

>  Hey everyone. I don't know if this has come up already, but:
> names of
>  the new Fedora.next variants should not be translated. That is:
>
>   * Fedora Workstation
>   * Fedora Server
>   * Fedora Cloud
>
>  should stay like that in any language. These are all brands, not
>  descriptions.
>
>  For Fedora Cloud in specific, "Fedora Atomic" should also be
>  untranslated.
>
>  
If I transliterate it in our script, any problem?



>  Thanks!
>
>  --
>  Matthew Miller
>  <mattdm(a)fedoraproject.org&gt;
>  Fedora Project Leader
>  --
>  trans mailing list
>  trans(a)lists.fedoraproject.org
>  https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/trans

[Piotr Drąg]

5 lis 2014 22:18 "Matthew Miller" <mattdm(a)fedoraproject.org&gt; napisał(a):
>  Hey everyone. I don't know if this has come up already, but: names of
>  the new Fedora.next variants should not be translated. That is:
>
>   * Fedora Workstation
>   * Fedora Server
>   * Fedora Cloud
>
>  should stay like that in any language. These are all brands, not
>  descriptions.
>
>  For Fedora Cloud in specific, "Fedora Atomic" should also be
>  untranslated.
>  
Hi Matthew,

While I do share the concerns expressed by others in this thread, FWIW I
did correct the Polish version to not use translated product names.

Best regards,

-- 
Piotr Drąg
http://raven.fedorapeople.org

[Tommy He]

Hi Matthew,

Not sure if any more news from Legal.
As the big days for Fedora 21 is approaching, I think we should make an
decision on this one.

Glad you brought this up. Would you mind continuing this communication?
Or you would like to put us into contact with Legal team for following
discussion?

Thanks,
Tommy

On Tue, Nov 11, 2014 at 9:34 PM, Piotr Drąg <piotrdrag(a)gmail.com&gt; wrote:

>  5 lis 2014 22:18 "Matthew Miller"
> <mattdm(a)fedoraproject.org&gt; napisał(a):
>  >
>  > Hey everyone. I don't know if this has come up already, but: names of
>  > the new Fedora.next variants should not be translated. That is:
>  >
>  >  * Fedora Workstation
>  >  * Fedora Server
>  >  * Fedora Cloud
>  >
>  > should stay like that in any language. These are all brands, not
>  > descriptions.
>  >
>  > For Fedora Cloud in specific, "Fedora Atomic" should also be
>  > untranslated.
>  >
>
>  Hi Matthew,
>
>  While I do share the concerns expressed by others in this thread, FWIW I
>  did correct the Polish version to not use translated product names.
>
>  Best regards,
>
>  --
>  Piotr Drąg
>  http://raven.fedorapeople.org
>
>  --
>  trans mailing list
>  trans(a)lists.fedoraproject.org
>  https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/trans
>  


-- 
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