About FUEL project

[Yuri Chornoivan]

Hi,

Just a few notes about FUEL project in the Fedora and Ukrainian language  
context.

1. The project aimed to avoid fragmentation introduces fragmentation  
itself. At least for Ukrainian, TWN translator seems have not even see the  
Ukrainian translation in the applications mentioned in the contexts ever.

2. The project highly interferes with other works [1-5].

3. The project uses dictionary from the limited set FOSS applications  
(GNOME, Firefox, OO.o) at least some of which are not even most usable  
throughout FOSS applications.

4. The project seems aimed just into collecting data without using them  
for any purpose.

So I propose to make it clear that

1. The project is for Indic languages only (?).

2. The translation for other languages were not approved by any FOSS  
translation teams and express their authors opinion only.

3. Merge the existing translations with Zanata templates to avoid  
unnecessary waste of the Fedora translation team efforts.

Best regards,
Yuri

[1] http://l10n.kde.org/dictionary/search-translations.php
[2] http://pylyglot.org/
[3] http://open-tran.eu/
[4] Project glossaries on https://www.transifex.com/
[5] http://littlesvr.ca/ostd/

[Rajesh Ranjan]

Hi Yuri,

Thanks for taking time to go through the FUEL Project!

On Mon, Aug 26, 2013 at 3:58 PM, Yuri Chornoivan <yurchor(a)ukr.net&gt; wrote:

>  Hi,
>
>  Just a few notes about FUEL project in the Fedora and Ukrainian language
>  context.
>
>  1. The project aimed to avoid fragmentation introduces fragmentation
>  itself. At least for Ukrainian, TWN translator seems have not even see the
>  Ukrainian translation in the applications mentioned in the contexts ever.
>  
TWN translator is one of the contributor community. We are accepting
contribution from Zanata as well now. So Ukrainian community can send the
translation via zanata or even any individual as well can send the
translation to FUEL project directly.


>  2. The project highly interferes with other works [1-5].
>  
Five names you taken, FUEL just tries to come to consistency. As per FUEL
Project, we think that an entry like "Save As" should be translated in
similar fashion if the context is same across the application and across
the platform.


>  3. The project uses dictionary from the limited set FOSS applications
>  (GNOME, Firefox, OO.o) at least some of which are not even most usable
>  throughout FOSS applications.
>  
This makes it important, as FUEL emphasizes on that the entry coming
repeatedly (base register) is more important to be standardized. FUEL is an
acronym for "Frequently Used Entries for Localization". So the limited set.
And we will also increase its entry base.


>  4. The project seems aimed just into collecting data without using them
>  for any purpose.
>  
No, its is not true. There are many use cases of FUEL Project. Just an
example:

https://git.gnome.org/browse/gedit/log/?qt=grep&q=fuel


>  So I propose to make it clear that
>
>  1. The project is for Indic languages only (?).
>  
Not at all


>  2. The translation for other languages were not approved by any FOSS
>  translation teams and express their authors opinion only.
>  
Correct. But,

We didn't organized any meet-up of community evaluation till now for
several languages, so till that time we can say that the  is
author's/communities' (eg zanata/twn) opinion only.


>  3. Merge the existing translations with Zanata templates to avoid
>  unnecessary waste of the Fedora translation team efforts.
>  
please clarify!


-- 
Regards,
Rajesh Ranjan

*FUEL GILT Conference 2013*
http://fuelproject.org/gilt2013/index

[Yuri Chornoivan]

написане Mon, 26 Aug 2013 14:41:25 +0300, Rajesh Ranjan  
<rajesh672(a)gmail.com&gt;:

>  Hi Yuri,
>
>  Thanks for taking time to go through the FUEL Project!
>
>  On Mon, Aug 26, 2013 at 3:58 PM, Yuri Chornoivan <yurchor(a)ukr.net&gt; wrote:
>
> > Hi,
> >
> > Just a few notes about FUEL project in the Fedora and Ukrainian language
> > context.
> >
> > 1. The project aimed to avoid fragmentation introduces fragmentation
> > itself. At least for Ukrainian, TWN translator seems have not even see  
> > the
> > Ukrainian translation in the applications mentioned in the contexts  
> > ever.
> >
>
>  TWN translator is one of the contributor community. We are accepting
>  contribution from Zanata as well now. So Ukrainian community can send the
>  translation via zanata or even any individual as well can send the
>  translation to FUEL project directly.
>
>
> >
> > 2. The project highly interferes with other works [1-5].
> >
>
>  Five names you taken, FUEL just tries to come to consistency. As per FUEL
>  Project, we think that an entry like "Save As" should be translated in
>  similar fashion if the context is same across the application and across
>  the platform.
>
>
> >
> > 3. The project uses dictionary from the limited set FOSS applications
> > (GNOME, Firefox, OO.o) at least some of which are not even most usable
> > throughout FOSS applications.
> >
>
>  This makes it important, as FUEL emphasizes on that the entry coming
>  repeatedly (base register) is more important to be standardized. FUEL is  
>  an
>  acronym for "Frequently Used Entries for Localization". So the limited  
>  set.
>  And we will also increase its entry base.
>
>
> >
> > 4. The project seems aimed just into collecting data without using them
> > for any purpose.
> >
>
>  No, its is not true. There are many use cases of FUEL Project. Just an
>  example:
>
>  https://git.gnome.org/browse/gedit/log/?qt=grep&q=fuel
>
>
> >
> > So I propose to make it clear that
> >
> > 1. The project is for Indic languages only (?).
> >
>
>  Not at all 
OK. Then could you please switch off Ukrainian to not confuse Ukrainian  
translators? There are enough open source consistent dictionaries and  
comprehensive Microsoft and Apple free to use glossaries and TMs for  
Ukrainian. There is no need for yet another Ukrainian style guide.

> >
> > 2. The translation for other languages were not approved by any FOSS
> > translation teams and express their authors opinion only.
> >
>  Correct. But,
>
>  We didn't organized any meet-up of community evaluation till now for
>  several languages, so till that time we can say that the  is
>  author's/communities' (eg zanata/twn) opinion only.
>
>
> >
> > 3. Merge the existing translations with Zanata templates to avoid
> > unnecessary waste of the Fedora translation team efforts.
> >
>
>  please clarify! 
Zanata evaluates the time to translate FUEL templates in hours of Fedora  
translators time:


FUEL-Desktop: 4.5 hours
FUEL-Mobile: 3.3 hours
FUEL-Web: 3.5 hours

Total: ~11.3 hours

All translations are now empty.

There is no reason to retranslate this all over again. Just upload the  
existing translations. If somebody wants to improve them, he/she will do  
it. That's how all FOSS translation works, imho.

Best regards,
Yuri

[Ankit Patel]

On 08/26/2013 06:10 PM, Yuri Chornoivan wrote:
>  OK. Then could you please switch off Ukrainian to not confuse
> Ukrainian
>  translators? There are enough open source consistent dictionaries and
>  comprehensive Microsoft and Apple free to use glossaries and TMs for
>  Ukrainian. There is no need for yet another Ukrainian style guide. 
Perhaps you can import the most consistent one that Fedora Ukrainian
localization group follows. If Ukrainian Translation Style Guide is
already available and followed by Fedora Ukrainian localization group,
it would be good if you can make it available to FUEL community as well.

[...]

>  Zanata evaluates the time to translate FUEL templates in hours of
> Fedora
>  translators time:
>
>
>  FUEL-Desktop: 4.5 hours
>  FUEL-Mobile: 3.3 hours
>  FUEL-Web: 3.5 hours
>
>  Total: ~11.3 hours
>
>  All translations are now empty.
>
>  There is no reason to retranslate this all over again. Just upload the
>  existing translations. If somebody wants to improve them, he/she will do
>  it. That's how all FOSS translation works, imho. 
Again, respective language communities at Fedora can do this, instead of
a non-language member does this.

>  Best regards,
>  Yuri 
Thanks,

-- 
Regards,
Ankit Patel
http://www.ankit644.com/
http://fuelproject.org/gilt2013/index

[Yuri Chornoivan]

Wed, 28 Aug 2013 13:37:09 +0300 було написано Ankit Patel  
<ankit(a)redhat.com&gt;:

>  On 08/26/2013 06:10 PM, Yuri Chornoivan wrote:
> > OK. Then could you please switch off Ukrainian to not confuse Ukrainian
> > translators? There are enough open source consistent dictionaries and
> > comprehensive Microsoft and Apple free to use glossaries and TMs for
> > Ukrainian. There is no need for yet another Ukrainian style guide.
>
>  Perhaps you can import the most consistent one that Fedora Ukrainian
>  localization group follows. If Ukrainian Translation Style Guide is
>  already available and followed by Fedora Ukrainian localization group,
>  it would be good if you can make it available to FUEL community as well. 
The guide is here (and the linked pages):

http://docs.linux.org.ua/Переклади/Мовні_принципи_локалізації_програмних_...

General dictionary with no obligations on how to translate items in GNOME  
or Firefox :) :

http://docs.linux.org.ua/Переклади/Книжечка_термінів/

KDE translation guide:

http://docs.linux.org.ua/Переклади/Короткий_довідник_перекладача_KDE/

Just want to say that it seems to me that it is better not touch Ukrainian  
part of FUEL because there were no claims from Ukrainian translation  
community to create such project. I am KDE coordinator and noone asking me  
to create such projects. There are existing and well-maintaned project for  
Mozilla Foundation products and for GNOME. I do not want to begin flame  
wars about menu items. And guides in a format of PO file or PDF documents  
have no chance to be used by any real translators.

Just a little sketch on this:

http://translatorsanonymous.tumblr.com/post/56952419359/when-my-word-file...

>  [...]
>
> > Zanata evaluates the time to translate FUEL templates in hours of Fedora
> > translators time:
> >
> >
> > FUEL-Desktop: 4.5 hours
> > FUEL-Mobile: 3.3 hours
> > FUEL-Web: 3.5 hours
> >
> > Total: ~11.3 hours
> >
> > All translations are now empty.
> >
> > There is no reason to retranslate this all over again. Just upload the
> > existing translations. If somebody wants to improve them, he/she will do
> > it. That's how all FOSS translation works, imho.
>
>  Again, respective language communities at Fedora can do this, instead of
>  a non-language member does this. 
Ok. But there are no links to the project repo in FUEL Zanata page, so it  
is most likely that the work will be done by the most novice community  
members from zero. Just want to say this.

> >
> > Best regards,
> > Yuri
>
>  Thanks,
>  
Thanks for your work.

Best regards,
Yuri

[Ankit Patel]

On 08/28/2013 04:39 PM, Yuri Chornoivan wrote:
>  Wed, 28 Aug 2013 13:37:09 +0300 було написано Ankit Patel
>  <ankit(a)redhat.com&gt;:
>
> > On 08/26/2013 06:10 PM, Yuri Chornoivan wrote:
> >> OK. Then could you please switch off Ukrainian to not confuse Ukrainian
> >> translators? There are enough open source consistent dictionaries and
> >> comprehensive Microsoft and Apple free to use glossaries and TMs for
> >> Ukrainian. There is no need for yet another Ukrainian style guide.
> >
> > Perhaps you can import the most consistent one that Fedora Ukrainian
> > localization group follows. If Ukrainian Translation Style Guide is
> > already available and followed by Fedora Ukrainian localization group,
> > it would be good if you can make it available to FUEL community as well.
>
>  The guide is here (and the linked pages):
>
>
> http://docs.linux.org.ua/Переклади/Мовні_принципи_локалізації_програмних_...
>
>
>  General dictionary with no obligations on how to translate items in
>  GNOME or Firefox :) :
>
>  http://docs.linux.org.ua/Переклади/Книжечка_термінів/
>
>  KDE translation guide:
>
>  http://docs.linux.org.ua/Переклади/Короткий_довідник_перекладача_KDE/ 
Community at FUEL Project engages language experts, technical experts
and localization community members to prepare Translation Style and
Conventions Guide. e.g. http://www.fuelproject.org/styleguide/index

>  Just want to say that it seems to me that it is better not touch
>  Ukrainian part of FUEL because there were no claims from Ukrainian
>  translation community to create such project. I am KDE coordinator and
>  noone asking me to create such projects. There are existing and
>  well-maintaned project for Mozilla Foundation products and for GNOME. I
>  do not want to begin flame wars about menu items. 
Well, it's not a simple task, I agree. But bringing a consensus amongst
the community members especially when linguists are around to authorize
one particular word, would be very much helpful, not just for the
localizers but also for the native end users. Otherwise, you might find
a word "File" or "Save As" translated differently in Firefox compared
to
KDE applications or GNOME apps.

> And guides in a format
>  of PO file or PDF documents have no chance to be used by any real
>  translators. 
Hindi, for example:
* PO, PDF, ODS file formats:
http://svn.fedorahosted.org/svn/fuel/language/hi/terminology/desktop/
* Online availability:
http://www.fuelproject.org/terminology?utf8=%E2%9C%93&module=desktop&...
* JSON format:
http://www.fuelproject.org/terminology.json?utf8=%E2%9C%93&module=des...

and

* Availability for translators through Zanata:
https://translate.zanata.org/zanata/project/view/fuel-project
* Availability for translators through translatewiki:
https://translatewiki.net/wiki/Translating:FUEL

>  Just a little sketch on this:
>
>
> http://translatorsanonymous.tumblr.com/post/56952419359/when-my-word-file...
>
>
> > [...]
> >
> >> Zanata evaluates the time to translate FUEL templates in hours of Fedora
> >> translators time:
> >>
> >>
> >> FUEL-Desktop: 4.5 hours
> >> FUEL-Mobile: 3.3 hours
> >> FUEL-Web: 3.5 hours
> >>
> >> Total: ~11.3 hours
> >>
> >> All translations are now empty.
> >>
> >> There is no reason to retranslate this all over again. Just upload the
> >> existing translations. If somebody wants to improve them, he/she will do
> >> it. That's how all FOSS translation works, imho.
> >
> > Again, respective language communities at Fedora can do this, instead of
> > a non-language member does this.
>
>  Ok. But there are no links to the project repo in FUEL Zanata page, so
>  it is most likely that the work will be done by the most novice
>  community members from zero. Just want to say this. 
You don't need to access the FUEL repo directly. Zanata and FUEL would
do so on your behalf, just like every other project on Fedora does.
Zanata provides 'upload offline translation' feature as well.

> >>
> >> Best regards,
> >> Yuri
> >
> > Thanks,
> >
>
>  Thanks for your work.
>
>  Best regards,
>  Yuri 

Thanks,

-- 
Regards,
Ankit Patel
http://www.ankit644.com/
http://fuelproject.org/gilt2013/index