Re: Release Notes

[John J. McDonough]

>  Date: Mon, 31 Oct 2011 23:25:33 +0900
>  From: Misha Shnurapet <shnurapet(a)fedoraproject.org&gt; 
  [clip]

>  31.10.2011, 23:05, "Kévin Raymond"
> <shaiton(a)fedoraproject.org&gt;:
>  > I think that you should not include Revision History in your
>  > statistics, this file is useful, but not really needed to be
>  > translated (I translated it only in order to get 100% ^^), IMHO of
>  > course.
>  
>  I think it'd be better to have a list of contributors rather than a revision history
> log. 
A list of contributors would be great, but we haven't figured out how to
do that.  In the past we have tried but have never been able to get it
right, especially with the translators.  Perhaps the new tx offers some
options we haven't examined.  For writers, we can check the wiki
history, git commits and bugzilla, but there tend to be a lot of
translators that we don't know how to identify.

As far as the revision history, that is necessary.  However, I also
question the value of translating it.

--McD

Release Notes

[Misha Shnurapet]

01.11.2011, 21:53, "John J. McDonough" <wb8rcr(a)arrl.net&gt;:
> >  Date: Mon, 31 Oct 2011 23:25:33 +0900
> >  From: Misha Shnurapet <shnurapet(a)fedoraproject.org&gt;
>
>    [clip]
>
> >  31.10.2011, 23:05, "Kévin Raymond" <shaiton(a)fedoraproject.org&gt;:
> >>  I think that you should not include Revision History in your
> >>  statistics, this file is useful, but not really needed to be
> >>  translated (I translated it only in order to get 100% ^^), IMHO of
> >>  course.
> >  I think it'd be better to have a list of contributors rather than a revision
> history log.
>
>  A list of contributors would be great, but we haven't figured out how to
>  do that.  In the past we have tried but have never been able to get it
>  right, especially with the translators.  Perhaps the new tx offers some
>  options we haven't examined.  For writers, we can check the wiki
>  history, git commits and bugzilla, but there tend to be a lot of
>  translators that we don't know how to identify.
>
>  As far as the revision history, that is necessary.  However, I also
>  question the value of translating it. 
There are two possible ways to deal with the list of translators as I see it:
1. to collect the names from the .po file headers, which are filled, AFAIK, automatically
by Transifex;
2. to omit this list (just like it is done now), naming the authors only.

Should the revision history be necessary, its module should miss Transifex and it's in
the bag.

-- 
Best regards,
Misha Shnurapet, Fedora Project Contributor
Email: shnurapet AT fedoraproject.org, IRC: misha on freenode
https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/shnurapet, GPG: 00217306

Release Notes

[Eric Christensen]

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
Hash: SHA256

On Tue, Nov 01, 2011 at 10:52:49PM +0900, Misha Shnurapet wrote:
>  01.11.2011, 21:53, "John J. McDonough"
> <wb8rcr(a)arrl.net&gt;:
>  >>  Date: Mon, 31 Oct 2011 23:25:33 +0900
>  >>  From: Misha Shnurapet <shnurapet(a)fedoraproject.org&gt;
>  >
>  >   [clip]
>  >
>  >>  31.10.2011, 23:05, "Kévin Raymond"
> <shaiton(a)fedoraproject.org&gt;:
>  >>>  I think that you should not include Revision History in your
>  >>>  statistics, this file is useful, but not really needed to be
>  >>>  translated (I translated it only in order to get 100% ^^), IMHO of
>  >>>  course.
>  >>  I think it'd be better to have a list of contributors rather than a
> revision history log.
>  >
>  > A list of contributors would be great, but we haven't figured out how to
>  > do that.  In the past we have tried but have never been able to get it
>  > right, especially with the translators.  Perhaps the new tx offers some
>  > options we haven't examined.  For writers, we can check the wiki
>  > history, git commits and bugzilla, but there tend to be a lot of
>  > translators that we don't know how to identify.
>  >
>  > As far as the revision history, that is necessary.  However, I also
>  > question the value of translating it.
>  
>  There are two possible ways to deal with the list of translators as I see it:
>  1. to collect the names from the .po file headers, which are filled, AFAIK, automatically
> by Transifex; 
This is possible but would be forever changing.

>  2. to omit this list (just like it is done now), naming the authors
> only. 
And this doesn't feel correct, to me, as we would be leaving out
contributors of the translations.

I would think that the best way would be to have translators add their name to the author
list on their language's translations when translating.  This, unfortunately,
doesn't work well with Publican.

I believe we discussed these problems at the FAD at Ohio Linux Fest and didn't really
come up with a good way to do this except to provide attribution via a wiki page and have
a link to the wiki page in the document.  A little clumsy I think.

- -- Eric

- --------------------------------------------------
Eric H Christensen        eric(a)christensenplace.us
"Sparks"                  sparks(a)fedoraproject.org
   .... .. .-.. .-.. ---   .-- --- .-. .-.. -..
097C 82C3 52DF C64A 50C2  E3A3 8076 ABDE 024B B3D1
- --------------------------------------------------
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Release Notes

[Misha Shnurapet]

02.11.2011, 11:33, "Eric H. Christensen" <sparks(a)fedoraproject.org&gt;:
>  I would think that the best way would be to have translators add
> their name to the author list on their language's translations when translating.
>  This, unfortunately, doesn't work well with Publican. 
Hey, that's a great idea to make a message string in the PO files and have each
translator add himself. Just see how it is done in Shotwell [1]. The string is
"translator-credits" in the original, I think it can be built as needed with
Publican.

>  I believe we discussed these problems at the FAD at Ohio Linux Fest
> and didn't really come up with a good way to do this except to provide attribution via
> a wiki page and have a link to the wiki page in the document.  A little clumsy I think.
We've had this for a while [2], it doesn't seem to have worked well [3], probably
because wiki and Transifex are the two things apart.

[1] https://www.transifex.net/projects/p/shotwell/resource/shotwell-core/l/ru...
[2] https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Fedora_13_Documentation_Translations_-_Con...
[3] https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Fedora_14_Documentation_Translations_-_Con...

--
Best regards,
Misha Shnurapet, Fedora Project Contributor
Email: shnurapet AT fedoraproject.org, IRC: misha on freenode
https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/shnurapet, GPG: 00217306

Release Notes

[Petr Kovar]

Hi all,

On Wed, 02 Nov 2011 11:51:44 +0900
Misha Shnurapet <shnurapet(a)fedoraproject.org&gt; wrote:

>  02.11.2011, 11:33, "Eric H. Christensen"
> <sparks(a)fedoraproject.org&gt;:
>  > I would think that the best way would be to have translators add their name to the
> author list on their language's translations when translating.  This, unfortunately,
> doesn't work well with Publican.
>  
>  Hey, that's a great idea to make a message string in the PO files and have each
> translator add himself. Just see how it is done in Shotwell [1]. The string is
> "translator-credits" in the original, I think it can be built as needed with
> Publican.
>  
>  > I believe we discussed these problems at the FAD at Ohio Linux Fest and didn't
> really come up with a good way to do this except to provide attribution via a wiki page
> and have a link to the wiki page in the document.  A little clumsy I think.
>  
>  We've had this for a while [2], it doesn't seem to have worked well [3], probably
> because wiki and Transifex are the two things apart. 
I agree that maintaining a list of translation contributors
manually is always going to be hard and time-consuming.

For now, I'd just link to the official list of Fedora translation teams.
Among others, the RN translators should all be there.

https://fedora.transifex.net/projects/p/fedora/teams/

Cheers,
Petr Kovar

Release Notes

[Domingo Becker]

2011/11/1 Eric H. Christensen <sparks(a)fedoraproject.org&gt;:
>  -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
>  Hash: SHA256
>
>  On Tue, Nov 01, 2011 at 10:52:49PM +0900, Misha Shnurapet wrote:
> > 01.11.2011, 21:53, "John J. McDonough" <wb8rcr(a)arrl.net&gt;:
> > >>  Date: Mon, 31 Oct 2011 23:25:33 +0900
> > >>  From: Misha Shnurapet <shnurapet(a)fedoraproject.org&gt;
> > >
> > >   [clip]
> > >
> > >>  31.10.2011, 23:05, "Kévin Raymond"
> <shaiton(a)fedoraproject.org&gt;:
> > >>>  I think that you should not include Revision History in your
> > >>>  statistics, this file is useful, but not really needed to be
> > >>>  translated (I translated it only in order to get 100% ^^), IMHO of
> > >>>  course.
> > >>  I think it'd be better to have a list of contributors rather than a
> revision history log.
> > >
> > > A list of contributors would be great, but we haven't figured out how to
> > > do that.  In the past we have tried but have never been able to get it
> > > right, especially with the translators.  Perhaps the new tx offers some
> > > options we haven't examined.  For writers, we can check the wiki
> > > history, git commits and bugzilla, but there tend to be a lot of
> > > translators that we don't know how to identify.
> > >
> > > As far as the revision history, that is necessary.  However, I also
> > > question the value of translating it.
> >
> > There are two possible ways to deal with the list of translators as I see it:
> > 1. to collect the names from the .po file headers, which are filled, AFAIK,
> automatically by Transifex;
>  This is possible but would be forever changing. 
There's no need to do this, because a translator-credits string would be enough.

> > 2. to omit this list (just like it is done now), naming the authors only.
>  And this doesn't feel correct, to me, as we would be leaving out contributors of the
> translations.
>
>  I would think that the best way would be to have translators add their name to the author
> list on their language's translations when translating.  This, unfortunately,
> doesn't work well with Publican.
>  
In fact, it works perfectly well with Publican.

I tested it with Guillermo Gomez's permission in Software Management
Guide and the process is documented in [1].

In summary:

1. There should be a new Acknowledgements.xml with the contents
similar to Agradecimientos.xml in [2]. It is in Spanish, but a
doc-writer knows about xml, so it shouldn't be a problem.

2. This file should be linked in the Document_Name.xml file with a
line like the following:

 <xi:include href="Acknowledgements.xml"
xmlns:xi="http://www.w3.org/2001/XInclude" />

3. The translation that should be given for translator-credits string
is like the one shown in [3], or in English:
translator 1 <translator 1's email>, year <br>
translator 2 <translator 2's email>, year <br>
translator 3 <translator 3's email>, year
And this work should be done by the translator, and it means a lot of
work less for the document writer.

4. Publican will do the magic. All translator will be extracted from
the translator-credits string in the po file, which is team's
responsibility.

[1] http://rpmdev.proyectofedora.org/issues/488

[2] http://rpmdev.proyectofedora.org/issues/488#note-3

[3] http://rpmdev.proyectofedora.org/issues/488#note-2

You may test it with Release Notes. It's not too late.
It worked fine as I tested it.

kind regards

Domingo Becker

Release Notes

[Petr Kovar]

Hi Domingo,

What would be displayed in the English original then, if the translator
credits are to be extracted from PO files?

I know that the translator-credits string works well in GNOME, but they
use the xml2po utility to take care of the credit string, so that's a little
bit different toolchain.

CC'ing the docs list again.

Cheers,
Petr Kovar


On Wed, 2 Nov 2011 14:20:45 -0300
Domingo Becker <domingobecker(a)gmail.com&gt; wrote:

>  2011/11/1 Eric H. Christensen <sparks(a)fedoraproject.org&gt;:
>  > -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
>  > Hash: SHA256
>  >
>  > On Tue, Nov 01, 2011 at 10:52:49PM +0900, Misha Shnurapet wrote:
>  >> 01.11.2011, 21:53, "John J. McDonough" <wb8rcr(a)arrl.net&gt;:
>  >> >>  Date: Mon, 31 Oct 2011 23:25:33 +0900
>  >> >>  From: Misha Shnurapet <shnurapet(a)fedoraproject.org&gt;
>  >> >
>  >> >   [clip]
>  >> >
>  >> >>  31.10.2011, 23:05, "Kévin Raymond"
> <shaiton(a)fedoraproject.org&gt;:
>  >> >>>  I think that you should not include Revision History in your
>  >> >>>  statistics, this file is useful, but not really needed to be
>  >> >>>  translated (I translated it only in order to get 100% ^^), IMHO
> of
>  >> >>>  course.
>  >> >>  I think it'd be better to have a list of contributors rather than
> a revision history log.
>  >> >
>  >> > A list of contributors would be great, but we haven't figured out how
> to
>  >> > do that.  In the past we have tried but have never been able to get it
>  >> > right, especially with the translators.  Perhaps the new tx offers some
>  >> > options we haven't examined.  For writers, we can check the wiki
>  >> > history, git commits and bugzilla, but there tend to be a lot of
>  >> > translators that we don't know how to identify.
>  >> >
>  >> > As far as the revision history, that is necessary.  However, I also
>  >> > question the value of translating it.
>  >>
>  >> There are two possible ways to deal with the list of translators as I see it:
>  >> 1. to collect the names from the .po file headers, which are filled, AFAIK,
> automatically by Transifex;
>  > This is possible but would be forever changing.
>  
>  There's no need to do this, because a translator-credits string would be enough.
>  
>  >
>  >> 2. to omit this list (just like it is done now), naming the authors only.
>  > And this doesn't feel correct, to me, as we would be leaving out contributors of
> the translations.
>  >
>  > I would think that the best way would be to have translators add their name to the
> author list on their language's translations when translating.  This, unfortunately,
> doesn't work well with Publican.
>  >
>  
>  In fact, it works perfectly well with Publican.
>  
>  I tested it with Guillermo Gomez's permission in Software Management
>  Guide and the process is documented in [1].
>  
>  In summary:
>  
>  1. There should be a new Acknowledgements.xml with the contents
>  similar to Agradecimientos.xml in [2]. It is in Spanish, but a
>  doc-writer knows about xml, so it shouldn't be a problem.
>  
>  2. This file should be linked in the Document_Name.xml file with a
>  line like the following:
>  
>   <xi:include href="Acknowledgements.xml"
>  xmlns:xi="http://www.w3.org/2001/XInclude" />
>  
>  3. The translation that should be given for translator-credits string
>  is like the one shown in [3], or in English:
>  translator 1 <translator 1's email>, year <br>
>  translator 2 <translator 2's email>, year <br>
>  translator 3 <translator 3's email>, year
>  And this work should be done by the translator, and it means a lot of
>  work less for the document writer.
>  
>  4. Publican will do the magic. All translator will be extracted from
>  the translator-credits string in the po file, which is team's
>  responsibility.
>  
>  [1] http://rpmdev.proyectofedora.org/issues/488
>  
>  [2] http://rpmdev.proyectofedora.org/issues/488#note-3
>  
>  [3] http://rpmdev.proyectofedora.org/issues/488#note-2
>  
>  You may test it with Release Notes. It's not too late.
>  It worked fine as I tested it.
>  
>  kind regards
>  
>  Domingo Becker
>  --
>  trans mailing list
>  trans(a)lists.fedoraproject.org
>  https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/trans

Release Notes

[Domingo Becker]

2011/11/3 Petr Kovar <pkovar(a)redhat.com&gt;:
>  Hi Domingo,
>
>  What would be displayed in the English original then, if the translator
>  credits are to be extracted from PO files?
>
>  I know that the translator-credits string works well in GNOME, but they
>  use the xml2po utility to take care of the credit string, so that's a little
>  bit different toolchain.
>  
You may exclude that paragraph by using conditional tagging. The
paragraph would look like the following:

<section lang="es-ES,de-DE,pt-BR,fr-FR,others">
  <title>Translation</title>
    <para>
	The authors would like to thank ...
    </para>
    <para>translator-credits</para>
</section>

And the whole section will be excluded from all the languages not
mentioned in the string lang="es-ES,de-DE,pt-BR,fr-FR,others".

kind regards

Domingo Becker