What's the future for translation inside the FP ?

[Thomas Canniot]

Several months ago, we were asked about the future of translation
inside the Fedora Project.
Some people were in favour of a web UI (like Rosetta) to translate po
files, others wanted to keep the actual system, but with better tools
(for stats, updates and merges), and others wanted to be able to choose
between a rosetta-like system and the cvs/po one.

Then... what has been decided ? What is going on ?

I'm just asking because we are planning to reorganise our small
French translator team, and just wanted to know it's worth it.

Thanks.


Thomas Canniot

[Alain PORTAL]

Hi !

Le Friday 01 June 2007 15:50:40 Thomas Canniot, vous avez écrit :
>  Several months ago, we were asked about the future of translation
>  inside the Fedora Project.
>  Some people were in favour of a web UI (like Rosetta) to translate po
>  files, others wanted to keep the actual system, but with better tools
>  (for stats, updates and merges), and others wanted to be able to choose
>  between a rosetta-like system and the cvs/po one.
>
>  Then... what has been decided ? What is going on ?
>
>  I'm just asking because we are planning to reorganise our small
>  French translator team, and just wanted to know it's worth it. 
I'm not in favour a web UI and I really prefer working with po and po editor 
like kbabel.
Working with po allow us to produce diff between old and new translation and 
so, we can discuss on the french mailing list about the changes.

Unfortunately, the current system doesn't make easy the translation 
management.
I suggest:
- each po file has an identified maintener
- every maintener can hold several po files
- a maintener HAS to be mailed when the file he manages is changed

Regards,
Alain
-- 
Les pages de manuel Linux en français
http://manpagesfr.free.fr

[Dimitris Glezos]

O/H Thomas Canniot έγραψε:
>  Several months ago, we were asked about the future of translation
>  inside the Fedora Project.
>  Some people were in favour of a web UI (like Rosetta) to translate po
>  files, others wanted to keep the actual system, but with better tools
>  (for stats, updates and merges), and others wanted to be able to choose
>  between a rosetta-like system and the cvs/po one.
>  
>  Then... what has been decided ? What is going on ? 
Hey Thomas.

There are a number of issues that could make the life for us translators more
easy. We'll try to address as many of them as possible, and as soon as possible.

  1. One of them is that currently the PO files are hosted on a system outside
the Fedora Infrastructure. Much effort has been given to make this system
functional and the truth is it *does* do its job. However, our growing needs as
a translation project require for us to have the L10N system hooked-up onto the
Fedora Account System, so that we manage our ACLs from there and be able to
extend it as we want.

For this, the plan is to copy our whole CVS from this system to cvs.fp.o, and
begin development there, giving rights to translators to the PO dirs. The good
thing about this is that the Docs Project has already tried this and applied
ACLs which the L10N project has used and have worked great (BTW, we have had
more translations for the relnotes than the previous release, which shows that
the move hasn't affected the translations in a negative way).

I've talked this over with many people from the Board, the RelEng team and the
Infrastructure. We even stepped forward and gave it a try, which was successful.
This should happen in the next week (the plan was once F7 is out).


  2. For statistics, I'll try to hook-up GNOME's Damned Lies interface [1] on
our infrastructure. This should happen somewhere in the next 30 days and produce
a URL like [2].

    [1]: http://l10n.gnome.org/
    [2]: http://l10n.fedoraproject.org/


  3. To better integrate with upstream projects by giving translators access to
outside-hosted projects (like those hosted on `hosted.fp.o` and elsewhere), we
have a Google Summer of Code running. I'll try my best for this, although it's
an extremely busy period. The timespan for this is in the next 3 months.


  4. Finally, we'll continue to monitor -devel-list and notify maintainers for
string freezes, so that we have enough time for completed translations.


-d


>  I'm just asking because we are planning to reorganise our small
>  French translator team, and just wanted to know it's worth it. 

-- 
Dimitris Glezos
Jabber ID: glezos(a)jabber.org, GPG: 0xA5A04C3B
http://dimitris.glezos.com/

"He who gives up functionality for ease of use
loses both and deserves neither." (Anonymous)
--

[Thomas Canniot]

Le Fri, 01 Jun 2007 16:05:57 +0100,
Dimitris Glezos <dimitris(a)glezos.com&gt; a écrit :

>  O/H Thomas Canniot έγραψε:
>  > Several months ago, we were asked about the future of translation
>  > inside the Fedora Project.
>  > Some people were in favour of a web UI (like Rosetta) to translate
>  > po files, others wanted to keep the actual system, but with better
>  > tools (for stats, updates and merges), and others wanted to be able
>  > to choose between a rosetta-like system and the cvs/po one.
>  > 
>  > Then... what has been decided ? What is going on ?
>  
>  Hey Thomas.
>  
>  There are a number of issues that could make the life for us
>  translators more easy. We'll try to address as many of them as
>  possible, and as soon as possible. 
Thanks you so much Dimitri, i'm glad to see you are always more
involved than I should into translation.

Thanks for your answer bye the way, I think we can have a little
re-organization in the French team.

Cheers,


Thomas

[Igor Pires Soares]

Em Sex, 2007-06-01 às 16:05 +0100, Dimitris Glezos escreveu:
>    2. For statistics, I'll try to hook-up GNOME's Damned Lies
> interface [1] on
>  our infrastructure. This should happen somewhere in the next 30 days and produce
>  a URL like [2].
>  
>      [1]: http://l10n.gnome.org/
>      [2]: http://l10n.fedoraproject.org/ 
Great Dimitris!
In my opinion GNOME's Damned Lies is the best exemple to follow. I have
been doing some translations for the GNOME project and definitely it is
a great translation infrastructure. I am sure that it will help us a
lot.

Regards,
Igor Pires Soares

[Bart Couvreur]

Op vrijdag 01-06-2007 om 16:05 uur [tijdzone +0100], schreef Dimitris
Glezos:
>  O/H Thomas Canniot έγραψε:
>  > Several months ago, we were asked about the future of translation
>  > inside the Fedora Project.
>  > Some people were in favour of a web UI (like Rosetta) to translate po
>  > files, others wanted to keep the actual system, but with better tools
>  > (for stats, updates and merges), and others wanted to be able to choose
>  > between a rosetta-like system and the cvs/po one.
>  > 
>  > Then... what has been decided ? What is going on ? 
Hey, you beat me to the punch, superb :-)

>  
>  Hey Thomas.
>  
>  There are a number of issues that could make the life for us translators more
>  easy. We'll try to address as many of them as possible, and as soon as possible.
>  
>    1. One of them is that currently the PO files are hosted on a system outside
>  the Fedora Infrastructure. Much effort has been given to make this system
>  functional and the truth is it *does* do its job. However, our growing needs as
>  a translation project require for us to have the L10N system hooked-up onto the
>  Fedora Account System, so that we manage our ACLs from there and be able to
>  extend it as we want. 
>  For this, the plan is to copy our whole CVS from this system to
> cvs.fp.o, and
>  begin development there, giving rights to translators to the PO dirs. The good
>  thing about this is that the Docs Project has already tried this and applied
>  ACLs which the L10N project has used and have worked great (BTW, we have had
>  more translations for the relnotes than the previous release, which shows that
>  the move hasn't affected the translations in a negative way).
>  
>  I've talked this over with many people from the Board, the RelEng team and the
>  Infrastructure. We even stepped forward and gave it a try, which was successful.
>  This should happen in the next week (the plan was once F7 is out).
>   
We should get this done *before* Test 1 if we don't want to run into
problems and not being able to get translations into the distro, due to
people having to transition.

By this: I would like to remind everyone here to create an account in
the Fedora Accounts System and join the cvsl10n group as explained on
our Join-page.
>  
>    2. For statistics, I'll try to hook-up GNOME's Damned Lies interface [1] on
>  our infrastructure. This should happen somewhere in the next 30 days and produce
>  a URL like [2].
>  
>      [1]: http://l10n.gnome.org/
>      [2]: http://l10n.fedoraproject.org/
>  
>   
Coolness, if you need any help, just yell

>    3. To better integrate with upstream projects by giving translators
> access to
>  outside-hosted projects (like those hosted on `hosted.fp.o` and elsewhere), we
>  have a Google Summer of Code running. I'll try my best for this, although it's
>  an extremely busy period. The timespan for this is in the next 3 months.
>  
>  
>    4. Finally, we'll continue to monitor -devel-list and notify maintainers for
>  string freezes, so that we have enough time for completed translations.
>   
I'd like to add some other random stuff, I've been thinking about:

5. In a previous meeting of FDSCo, we felt that it's hard to contact
everyone in L10N, especially because we have fedora-trans-<lang> lists.
Not everyone is on this list, whatever the reason may be, so the idea
was to create a fedora-trans-announce list to which developers and the
docs guys could send e-mails that get distributed over all the
trans-lists. We could even hook up the CVS to get mails sent out
whenever a POT-file changes (based on filename or a keyword).

6. Bug the developers of the Fedora-specific programs to add
credit-dialogs like both Gnome and KDE have. I'm gonna try to get this
as a blocker for Fedora 8. If anyone wants to help do the bugging, don't
be shy :-)

7. Translation of the static website: It's possible to generate a pot
from the html, which can be used to translate and regenerate the
translated html. I'd rather keep this as a low priority thing, because
the website will be moving to Plone this summer (or it should), but we
can take a look at it.

8. Fedora Translation Steering Committee: we're a Fedora Project and
thus we must oblige the project standards, which require an elected
steering committee and meetings. Do we need this??

Any other ideas / wishes?

Bart
-- 
Bart <couf(a)fedoraproject.org&gt; <couf(a)skynet.be&gt;
key fingerprint: 6AAB 544D 3432 D013 776D  3602 ADB6 6B2A D93F 0F93

[Thomas Canniot]

Le Sat, 02 Jun 2007 17:11:45 +0200,
Bart Couvreur <couf(a)skynet.be&gt; a écrit :


>  
>  I'd like to add some other random stuff, I've been thinking about:
>  
>  5. [...] We could even hook up the CVS to get mails
>  sent out whenever a POT-file changes (based on filename or a keyword). 
That's what Alain Portal suggested in his previous mail. I think it's a
good idea as well.

>  
>  6. Bug the developers of the Fedora-specific programs to add
>  credit-dialogs like both Gnome and KDE have. I'm gonna try to get this
>  as a blocker for Fedora 8. If anyone wants to help do the bugging,
>  don't be shy :-) 
I'd like to help out !

Cheers,

Thomas

[Xavi Conde]

>  Any other ideas / wishes? 
Here my wishlist:

1. Automatically update PO and POT files. This should be handled as in
Gnome, were translations are updated twice a day. This shouldn't be a
work for translators, since you need the whole source code to
regenerate an up to date POT.

2. Allow to checkout by language only. Currently you have to checkout
the whole module with all the translations; it will be important to
make it easy to checkout just my language files.

3. Make it easier to obtain cvs rights to cvs.fp.o. Personally I found
there was too much bureaucracy in order to be added to the cvsdocs
group just for translating the documentation; I wish it gets easier to
be added to the cvs group for translation.

I would be glad to help you on this issues. Regards!

-- 
Google talk/Jabber: xavi.conde a gmail.com

[Thomas Canniot]

Le Wed, 6 Jun 2007 10:26:21 +0200,
"Xavier Conde Rueda" <xavi.conde(a)gmail.com&gt; a écrit :

>  > Any other ideas / wishes?
>  
>  Here my wishlist:
>  
>  1. Automatically update PO and POT files. This should be handled as in
>  Gnome, were translations are updated twice a day. This shouldn't be a
>  work for translators, since you need the whole source code to
>  regenerate an up to date POT.
>  
>  2. Allow to checkout by language only. Currently you have to checkout
>  the whole module with all the translations; it will be important to
>  make it easy to checkout just my language files.
>  
>  3. Make it easier to obtain cvs rights to cvs.fp.o. Personally I found
>  there was too much bureaucracy in order to be added to the cvsdocs
>  group just for translating the documentation; I wish it gets easier to
>  be added to the cvs group for translation.
>  
>  I would be glad to help you on this issues. Regards!
>   
I think it can still be extended, these are my wishes : 

1. translators should be able to be responsible for the PO of their
choice. There are maintainers for each packages, then there must be a
maintainer for each po file.

2. as a maintainer / developer is warned when a bug is filled in
bugzilla, the translator should be warned when his / her po has been
automatically updated. Could Bugzilla be used for this ?

3. yell on developpers to update the translation into the packages.
Smolt is an example in Fedora 7 : either there is an enormous bug,
either the translations have not been included.

Thomas

[Chester Cheng]

Xavier Conde Rueda wrote:
> > Any other ideas / wishes?
>
>  Here my wishlist:
>
>  1. Automatically update PO and POT files. This should be handled as in
>  Gnome, were translations are updated twice a day. This shouldn't be a
>  work for translators, since you need the whole source code to
>  regenerate an up to date POT. 
.po files are automatically updated every 6 hours for
some months.
>  2. Allow to checkout by language only. Currently you have to checkout
>  the whole module with all the translations; it will be important to
>  make it easy to checkout just my language files. 
This has been discussed for long. 
The problem here, from what I heard,
is that CVS doesn't support symlinks.  Does anyone know how to solve this?
>  3. Make it easier to obtain cvs rights to cvs.fp.o. Personally I found
>  there was too much bureaucracy in order to be added to the cvsdocs
>  group just for translating the documentation; I wish it gets easier to
>  be added to the cvs group for translation. 
You are talking about docs translation. 
For Fedora software translation,
there are not any change yet.  We are working on new infrastructure to
make things easier, such as single sign-on for Fedora software translation
and other services (e.g. Bugzilla).
>  I would be glad to help you on this issues. Regards!
>

[Xavi Conde]

Hi all,

2007/6/7, Chester Cheng <ccheng(a)redhat.com&gt;:
>  Xavier Conde Rueda wrote:
>  >> Any other ideas / wishes?
>  >
>  > Here my wishlist:
>  >
>  > 1. Automatically update PO and POT files. This should be handled as in
>  > Gnome, were translations are updated twice a day. This shouldn't be a
>  > work for translators, since you need the whole source code to
>  > regenerate an up to date POT.
>  .po files are automatically updated every 6 hours for some months.
>  > 
Indeed, sometimes PO files are outdated. As I said before, I think the
problem is outdated POT, not outdated POs. So it may be caused by
incorrect build systems:

https://www.redhat.com/archives/fedora-trans-list/2007-May/msg00007.html

>  > 2. Allow to checkout by language only. Currently you have to
> checkout
>  > the whole module with all the translations; it will be important to
>  > make it easy to checkout just my language files.
>  This has been discussed for long.  The problem here, from what I heard,
>  is that CVS doesn't support symlinks.  Does anyone know how to solve this? 
Ok, I'm thinking on it right now and I don't have a simple clue :( .
Maybe it can be worked around with a script on the client side, that
parses the available modules on the repository and checks out the
locale.po and the template.pot. Sure somebody did it; if not, I can
give it a try.

>  >
>  > 3. Make it easier to obtain cvs rights to cvs.fp.o. Personally I found
>  > there was too much bureaucracy in order to be added to the cvsdocs
>  > group just for translating the documentation; I wish it gets easier to
>  > be added to the cvs group for translation.
>  You are talking about docs translation.  For Fedora software translation,
>  there are not any change yet.  We are working on new infrastructure to
>  make things easier, such as single sign-on for Fedora software translation
>  and other services (e.g. Bugzilla).
>  > 
That's great, I was afraid the process was going to be as complicated
as for docs; for me all this bureaucracy doesn't reflect the opennes
of the Fedora project. Thanks.

Also, another wish:

N) Consolidate all the existing pages about how to obtain an account,
how to checkout translations, how to register on docs, how to contact
package mantainers.

Regards.

-- 
Google talk/Jabber: xavi.conde a gmail.com

[Alain PORTAL]

Hi Xavier,

Le Thursday 07 June 2007 11:22:29 Xavier Conde Rueda, vous avez écrit :

>  > > 2. Allow to checkout by language only. Currently you have
> to checkout
>  > > the whole module with all the translations; it will be important to
>  > > make it easy to checkout just my language files.
>  >
>  > This has been discussed for long.  The problem here, from what I heard,
>  > is that CVS doesn't support symlinks.  Does anyone know how to solve
>  > this?
>
>  Ok, I'm thinking on it right now and I don't have a simple clue :( .
>  Maybe it can be worked around with a script on the client side, that
>  parses the available modules on the repository and checks out the
>  locale.po and the template.pot. Sure somebody did it; if not, I can
>  give it a try. 
I'm trying to write a such script (a shell script that write the script to use 
to checkout) since yesterday.
I just launch it, it seems it is possible but I get some errors and couldn't 
get 5 modules.

Regards
Alain
-- 
Les pages de manuel Linux en français
http://manpagesfr.free.fr

[Miloš Komarčević]

On 6/8/07, Alain PORTAL <aportal(a)univ-montp2.fr&gt; wrote:
>  Hi Xavier,
>
>  Le Thursday 07 June 2007 11:22:29 Xavier Conde Rueda, vous avez écrit:
>
>  > > > 2. Allow to checkout by language only. Currently you have to checkout
>  > > > the whole module with all the translations; it will be important to
>  > > > make it easy to checkout just my language files.
>  > >
>  > > This has been discussed for long.  The problem here, from what I heard,
>  > > is that CVS doesn't support symlinks.  Does anyone know how to solve
>  > > this?
>  >
>  > Ok, I'm thinking on it right now and I don't have a simple clue :( .
>  > Maybe it can be worked around with a script on the client side, that
>  > parses the available modules on the repository and checks out the
>  > locale.po and the template.pot. Sure somebody did it; if not, I can
>  > give it a try.
>
>  I'm trying to write a such script (a shell script that write the script to use
>  to checkout) since yesterday.
>  I just launch it, it seems it is possible but I get some errors and couldn't
>  get 5 modules. 
These are probably problems with pot files having different names to
module names in cvs.

There was a similar script around a while ago by the Ukranian team:

http://translate.sourceforge.net/wiki/fedora

I've updated it for the purposes of the Serbian team. Please feel free
to pick it for ideas:

http://fedora.prevod.org/alati/updatetrans

Regards,
Milos

[Alain PORTAL]

Le Friday 08 June 2007 16:42:00 Miloš Komarčević, vous avez écrit :

>  > I'm trying to write a such script (a shell script that write
> the script
>  > to use to checkout) since yesterday.
>  > I just launch it, it seems it is possible but I get some errors and
>  > couldn't get 5 modules. 
Humm...
I forgot to say that the script is for the "translate" module, not for the 
documentation.

>  These are probably problems with pot files having different names to
>  module names in cvs.
>
>  There was a similar script around a while ago by the Ukranian team:
>
>  http://translate.sourceforge.net/wiki/fedora 
The requested URL /~lvm/fedora-cvs/fedora-cvs-0.3.tar.gz was not found on this 
server. ;-)

>  I've updated it for the purposes of the Serbian team. Please feel
> free
>  to pick it for ideas:
>
>  http://fedora.prevod.org/alati/updatetrans 
In fact, my script is based on the following command:

cvs co -c

that list all the avaliable modules on the cvs and I try to parse the 
translate module

Regards,
Alain
-- 
Les pages de manuel Linux en français
http://manpagesfr.free.fr

[Miloš Komarčević]

On 6/8/07, Alain PORTAL <aportal(a)univ-montp2.fr&gt; wrote:
>  > There was a similar script around a while ago by the Ukranian
> team:
>  >
>  > http://translate.sourceforge.net/wiki/fedora
>
>  The requested URL /~lvm/fedora-cvs/fedora-cvs-0.3.tar.gz was not found on this
>  server. ;-) 
Well, it was a while ago ;-)

>  > I've updated it for the purposes of the Serbian team. Please
> feel free
>  > to pick it for ideas:
>  >
>  > http://fedora.prevod.org/alati/updatetrans
>
>  In fact, my script is based on the following command:
>
>  cvs co -c
>
>  that list all the avaliable modules on the cvs and I try to parse the
>  translate module 
Sure, that is the better way to do it, but you still need to handle
the special cases. That's why I thought you might want to use some
snippets from my script.

Regards,
Miloš

[Alain PORTAL]

Le vendredi 08 juin 2007, Miloš Komarčević a écrit :

>  > In fact, my script is based on the following command:
>  >
>  > cvs co -c
>  >
>  > that list all the avaliable modules on the cvs and I try to parse the
>  > translate module
>
>  Sure, that is the better way to do it, but you still need to handle
>  the special cases. 
This is why my script failed

>  That's why I thought you might want to use some 
>  snippets from my script. 
Probably. But I don't like to hardcode the module names in the script, this 
isn't a good way ;-)
But the good way would be to fix the cvs structure.

Near all the translate module are:
po_module -d module module/po

but there are some dirty choices like:
po_system-config-bind -d system-config-bind
             system-config-bind/devel/system-config-bind-4.0.0/po

Regards
-- 
Les pages de manuel Linux en français
http://manpagesfr.free.fr/

[Karsten Wade]

On Fri, 2007-06-08 at 19:04 +0200, Alain PORTAL wrote:
>  But the good way would be to fix the cvs structure. 
Dimitris is going to need to describe to the developer/owners of the
software packages why we need to reorganize their module for PO/POT
files.

For CVS modules i18n.redhat.com to move to cvs.fedoraproject.org, they
are all going to need some standardization so that ACLs can be applied
properly.

- Karsten
-- 
   Karsten Wade, 108 Editor       ^     Fedora Documentation Project 
 Sr. Developer Relations Mgr.     |  fedoraproject.org/wiki/DocsProject
   quaid.108.redhat.com           |          gpg key: AD0E0C41
////////////////////////////////// \\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\

[Alain PORTAL]

Le vendredi 08 juin 2007, Karsten Wade a écrit :
>  On Fri, 2007-06-08 at 19:04 +0200, Alain PORTAL wrote:
>  > But the good way would be to fix the cvs structure.
>
>  Dimitris is going to need to describe to the developer/owners of the
>  software packages why we need to reorganize their module for PO/POT
>  files. 
What I mean by saying "fix the cvs structure" is to have a structure that can 
be easily scriptable if I want to use the 'cvs co -c' module.

>  For CVS modules i18n.redhat.com to move to cvs.fedoraproject.org,
> they
>  are all going to need some standardization so that ACLs can be applied
>  properly. 
I don't know in deep how work the ACL, and my english is really to bad to 
speak and read about policy. This is why we have, Thomas and I, a 
disccussion, in french of course ;-), and he'll post in some days our 
reflexion.

-- 
Les pages de manuel Linux en français
http://manpagesfr.free.fr/

[Xavi Conde]

2007/6/8, Alain PORTAL <alain.portal(a)free.fr&gt;:
>  Le vendredi 08 juin 2007, Karsten Wade a écrit :
>  > On Fri, 2007-06-08 at 19:04 +0200, Alain PORTAL wrote:
>  > > But the good way would be to fix the cvs structure.
>  >
>  > Dimitris is going to need to describe to the developer/owners of the
>  > software packages why we need to reorganize their module for PO/POT
>  > files.
>
>  What I mean by saying "fix the cvs structure" is to have a structure that can
>  be easily scriptable if I want to use the 'cvs co -c' module.
>  
Well, I think that such script should be generated on the server side,
since on the server you can quickly scan all the folders to find where
are po files, but on the client side this is not possible or too
inefficient. Or instead, generating a text file on the server side
with that listing; then we would check out the list and a simple
script that parsed the directory listing and checked files by locale.
I don't think there is a simple way of orgainizing directories on cvs
to make them script-friendly, since it doesn't work as a file system.
So, instead of hardcoding ourselves the paths, I think it should be
better to create such a list on the CVS server side.

Regards.

>  > For CVS modules i18n.redhat.com to move to
> cvs.fedoraproject.org, they
>  > are all going to need some standardization so that ACLs can be applied
>  > properly.
>  
One of the issues i think should be fixed is people getting cvs
accounts and applying changes to files without telling the current
translation group. Even if we (catalan group) state clearly on the po
file that they should contact our translation group, since they've got
a cvs account they do changes without telling us. I see it is possible
now to get an account and do that without we noting it, whereas
getting cvs access for a given language should be more under control.

So, for instance, there should be a "cvs-ca" group for
adding/modifying catalan files, and whoever wants to work on catalan
translation, he/she should be included on that team. Also, current
users of that group should be notified if somebody wants to be
included, since i don't think every translator should have cvs access.

Regards!
-- 
Google talk/Jabber: xavi.conde a gmail.com

[Alain PORTAL]

Le samedi 09 juin 2007, Xavier Conde Rueda a écrit :
>  2007/6/8, Alain PORTAL <alain.portal(a)free.fr&gt;:
>  > Le vendredi 08 juin 2007, Karsten Wade a écrit :
>  > > On Fri, 2007-06-08 at 19:04 +0200, Alain PORTAL wrote:
>  > > > But the good way would be to fix the cvs structure.
>  > >
>  > > Dimitris is going to need to describe to the developer/owners of the
>  > > software packages why we need to reorganize their module for PO/POT
>  > > files.
>  >
>  > What I mean by saying "fix the cvs structure" is to have a structure that
>  > can be easily scriptable if I want to use the 'cvs co -c' module.
>
>  Well, I think that such script should be generated on the server side,
>  since on the server you can quickly scan all the folders to find where
>  are po files, but on the client side this is not possible or too
>  inefficient. Or instead, generating a text file on the server side
>  with that listing; then we would check out the list and a simple
>  script that parsed the directory listing and checked files by locale.
>  I don't think there is a simple way of orgainizing directories on cvs
>  to make them script-friendly, since it doesn't work as a file system.
>  So, instead of hardcoding ourselves the paths, I think it should be
>  better to create such a list on the CVS server side. 
Creating a such list is probably the best idea without changing current cvs 
structure and it will allow to write an easy script.
I finally succeed to write my script, I'll send it as soon as I'll manage some 
exceptions like "the po file don't exist for a module in a locale, so 
checkout the pot file"

Results are:
- the full french translate module (without pot files) is 4,2Mo
- the full translate module (with pot files) is 215,3Mo

Regards,
Alain
-- 
Les pages de manuel Linux en français
http://manpagesfr.free.fr/

[Alain PORTAL]

Le Sunday 10 June 2007 14:56:43 Alain PORTAL, vous avez écrit :

>  > Well, I think that such script should be generated on the server
> side,
>  > since on the server you can quickly scan all the folders to find where
>  > are po files, but on the client side this is not possible or too
>  > inefficient. Or instead, generating a text file on the server side
>  > with that listing; then we would check out the list and a simple
>  > script that parsed the directory listing and checked files by locale.
>  > I don't think there is a simple way of orgainizing directories on cvs
>  > to make them script-friendly, since it doesn't work as a file system.
>  > So, instead of hardcoding ourselves the paths, I think it should be
>  > better to create such a list on the CVS server side.
>
>  Creating a such list is probably the best idea without changing current cvs
>  structure and it will allow to write an easy script.
>  I finally succeed to write my script, I'll send it as soon as I'll manage
>  some exceptions like "the po file don't exist for a module in a locale, so
>  checkout the pot file" 
The script isn't ended but I think it's time to release it to get feedback.
Possible bug: not all language can be supported; all language known by 
anaconda are supported
Known bugs: some pot files can't be checkout, there are probably special case 
that I have to check.

Script file can be localized ;-)
So feel free to do it and send me your strings.LANG.txt


Usage: $0 [OPTION]... [LANG_ISO_CODE]

This script build for you a script that checkout only your language"
po files of the translate module on the i18n RedHat cvs repository."

[LANG_ISO_CODE] have to be a valid lang iso code.

Avaliable options are:
  -f --force-pot-file    force checkouting pot files
                         usefull if your language isn't yet
                         supported by the Fedora Project
  -h --help              display this message and exit
  -p --with-pot-file     checkout all pot files
  -P --without-pot-file  don't checkout any pot file, even if your
                         language po file don't exist on repository
                         (bad idea ;-))
  -V --version           display the version information and exit

http://162.38.155.15/fedora/bmltmcs.tar.bz2

Regards,
Alain
-- 
Les pages de manuel Linux en français
http://manpagesfr.free.fr

[Besnik Bleta]

Hello,
strings for Albanian translation are attached.
(I might go back to what I have started some months ago for Fedora 6)


Alain PORTAL wrote:
>  Le Sunday 10 June 2007 14:56:43 Alain PORTAL, vous avez écrit :
>  
> >> Well, I think that such script should be generated on the server side,
> >> since on the server you can quickly scan all the folders to find where
> >> are po files, but on the client side this is not possible or too
> >> inefficient. Or instead, generating a text file on the server side
> >> with that listing; then we would check out the list and a simple
> >> script that parsed the directory listing and checked files by locale.
> >> I don't think there is a simple way of orgainizing directories on cvs
> >> to make them script-friendly, since it doesn't work as a file system.
> >> So, instead of hardcoding ourselves the paths, I think it should be
> >> better to create such a list on the CVS server side.
> > Creating a such list is probably the best idea without changing current cvs
> > structure and it will allow to write an easy script.
> > I finally succeed to write my script, I'll send it as soon as I'll manage
> > some exceptions like "the po file don't exist for a module in a locale, so
> > checkout the pot file"
>  
>  The script isn't ended but I think it's time to release it to get feedback.
>  Possible bug: not all language can be supported; all language known by 
>  anaconda are supported
>  Known bugs: some pot files can't be checkout, there are probably special case 
>  that I have to check.
>  
>  Script file can be localized ;-)
>  So feel free to do it and send me your strings.LANG.txt
>  
>  
>  Usage: $0 [OPTION]... [LANG_ISO_CODE]
>  
>  This script build for you a script that checkout only your language"
>  po files of the translate module on the i18n RedHat cvs repository."
>  
>  [LANG_ISO_CODE] have to be a valid lang iso code.
>  
>  Avaliable options are:
>    -f --force-pot-file    force checkouting pot files
>                           usefull if your language isn't yet
>                           supported by the Fedora Project
>    -h --help              display this message and exit
>    -p --with-pot-file     checkout all pot files
>    -P --without-pot-file  don't checkout any pot file, even if your
>                           language po file don't exist on repository
>                           (bad idea ;-))
>    -V --version           display the version information and exit
>  
>  http://162.38.155.15/fedora/bmltmcs.tar.bz2
>  
>  Regards,
>  Alain
>  
>  
>  ------------------------------------------------------------------------
>  
>  --
>  Fedora-trans-list mailing list
>  Fedora-trans-list(a)redhat.com
>  https://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/fedora-trans-list 

ERROR_WITH_WITHOUT_P="S'mund të përdorni mundësitë -p dhe -P njëkohësisht."
ERROR_FORCE_WITH_P="S'mund të përdorni mundësitë -f dhe -p njëkohësisht."
ERROR_FORCE_WITHOUT_P="S'mund të përdorni mundësitë -f dhe -P
njëkohësisht."
ERROR_CVSROOT_NO_SET="Nuk është caktuar ndryshorja CVSROOT për mjedisin.\nDuhet
caktuar ajo që të lidheni me depon cvs i18n RedHat cvs."
ERROR_CVSROOT_INVALID="Nuk u gjet depoja cvs i18n RedHat te ndryshorja CVSROOT e
mjedisit."
ERROR_CVS_CO_FAILED="bmltmcs: Ndodh një gabim me urdhrin cvs ndërkohë që merret lista
e moduleve."
SCRIPT_HEADER="# Mos e përpunoni këtë lartelë, u krijua nga\n# programthi
$0\n#"

[Alain PORTAL]

Le lundi 11 juin 2007, Besnik Bleta a écrit :
>  Hello,
>  strings for Albanian translation are attached.
>  (I might go back to what I have started some months ago for Fedora 6) 
Thank for your contribution, I'll add it quickly.
Please, don't top post
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Top-posting

Regards
-- 
Les pages de manuel Linux en français
http://manpagesfr.free.fr/

[Besnik Bleta]

Alain PORTAL wrote:
>  Le lundi 11 juin 2007, Besnik Bleta a écrit :
> > Hello,
> > strings for Albanian translation are attached.
> > (I might go back to what I have started some months ago for Fedora 6)
>  
>  Thank for your contribution, I'll add it quickly.
>  Please, don't top post 

I won´t.


cheers
besnik



>  http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Top-posting
>  
>  Regards
>  
>  
>  ------------------------------------------------------------------------
>  
>  --
>  Fedora-trans-list mailing list
>  Fedora-trans-list(a)redhat.com
>  https://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/fedora-trans-list

[Alain PORTAL]

Le lundi 11 juin 2007, Besnik Bleta a écrit :

>  > Thank for your contribution, I'll add it quickly.
>  > Please, don't top post
>
>  I won´t. 
Thanks ;-)

Regards
-- 
Les pages de manuel Linux en français
http://manpagesfr.free.fr/

[Alain PORTAL]

Le lundi 11 juin 2007, Besnik Bleta a écrit :
>  Hello,
>  strings for Albanian translation are attached.
>  (I might go back to what I have started some months ago for Fedora 6) 
I forgot to ask you if you find the script usefull? ;-)

-- 
Les pages de manuel Linux en français
http://manpagesfr.free.fr/

[Besnik Bleta]

Alain PORTAL wrote:
>  Le lundi 11 juin 2007, Besnik Bleta a écrit :
> > Hello,
> > strings for Albanian translation are attached.
> > (I might go back to what I have started some months ago for Fedora 6)
>  
>  I forgot to ask you if you find the script usefull? ;-) 
Well... the localized strings worked well :)

Having to guess what´s the CVSROOT for this case, stopped me there.

cheers
besnik


>  
>  
>  
>  ------------------------------------------------------------------------
>  
>  --
>  Fedora-trans-list mailing list
>  Fedora-trans-list(a)redhat.com
>  https://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/fedora-trans-list

[Alain PORTAL]

Le lundi 11 juin 2007, Besnik Bleta a écrit :

>  Well... the localized strings worked well :)
>
>  Having to guess what´s the CVSROOT for this case, stopped me there. 
You have to setup the CVSROOT environment variable (as said in strings you 
translated ;-) ) to be able to checkout files.
You have to do like when you do "cvs co translate", but instead this previous 
command, you launch the script.

Regards
-- 
Les pages de manuel Linux en français
http://manpagesfr.free.fr/

[Karsten Wade]

On Thu, 2007-06-07 at 11:22 +0200, Xavier Conde Rueda wrote:

>  That's great, I was afraid the process was going to be as
> complicated
>  as for docs; for me all this bureaucracy doesn't reflect the opennes
>  of the Fedora project. Thanks. 
FWIW, you really only need 'cvsl10n' to translate documentation (now);
this changed a few months ago.

Can you list what specifically was bothersome about the Fedora Account
System (FAS) process?

I ask because every contributor to Fedora has to go through some version
of the account sign-up.  Translators have been left out of this system
for a long time.  The benefits of being part of FAS to you personally as
well as to Fedora are much, much more than the hassle to each
individual.

But it doesn't have to be painful. :)  So, serious suggestions on what
to fix are greatly appreciated.

- Karsten
-- 
   Karsten Wade, 108 Editor       ^     Fedora Documentation Project 
 Sr. Developer Relations Mgr.     |  fedoraproject.org/wiki/DocsProject
   quaid.108.redhat.com           |          gpg key: AD0E0C41
////////////////////////////////// \\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\

[Bruno Barrera Yever]

On 6/8/07, Karsten Wade <kwade(a)redhat.com&gt; wrote:
>  On Thu, 2007-06-07 at 11:22 +0200, Xavier Conde Rueda wrote:
>
>  > That's great, I was afraid the process was going to be as complicated
>  > as for docs; for me all this bureaucracy doesn't reflect the opennes
>  > of the Fedora project. Thanks.
>
>  FWIW, you really only need 'cvsl10n' to translate documentation (now);
>  this changed a few months ago.
>
>  Can you list what specifically was bothersome about the Fedora Account
>  System (FAS) process?
>
>  I ask because every contributor to Fedora has to go through some version
>  of the account sign-up.  Translators have been left out of this system
>  for a long time.  The benefits of being part of FAS to you personally as
>  well as to Fedora are much, much more than the hassle to each
>  individual.
>
>  But it doesn't have to be painful. :)  So, serious suggestions on what
>  to fix are greatly appreciated.
>
>  - Karsten
>  --
>     Karsten Wade, 108 Editor       ^     Fedora Documentation Project
>  Sr. Developer Relations Mgr.     |  fedoraproject.org/wiki/DocsProject
>     quaid.108.redhat.com           |          gpg key: AD0E0C41
>  ////////////////////////////////// \\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\
>
>  --
>  Fedora-trans-list mailing list
>  Fedora-trans-list(a)redhat.com
>  https://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/fedora-trans-list
>
>  
Hi,

My name is Bruno, and im new here.

I can transalte documents from english to spanish, just tell me what i need
to transalte.

I hope i can be of help here.

-- 
Bruno Barrera

[Alain PORTAL]

Le vendredi 08 juin 2007, Bruno Barrera Yever a écrit :

>  Hi,
>
>  My name is Bruno, and im new here.
>
>  I can transalte documents from english to spanish, just tell me what i need
>  to transalte. 
Join the spanish team ! 
And subscribe to its mailing list.

>  I hope i can be of help here. 
Probably ;-)

-- 
Les pages de manuel Linux en français
http://manpagesfr.free.fr/

[Karsten Wade]

On Fri, 2007-06-08 at 20:45 +0200, Alain PORTAL wrote:
>  Le vendredi 08 juin 2007, Bruno Barrera Yever a écrit :
>  
>  > Hi,
>  >
>  > My name is Bruno, and im new here.
>  >
>  > I can transalte documents from english to spanish, just tell me what i need
>  > to transalte. 
Bueno!  Excelente!

>  Join the spanish team ! 
>  And subscribe to its mailing list. 
http://fedoraproject.org/L10N/Join

Bienvenido y buena suerte,

- Karsten
-- 
   Karsten Wade, 108 Editor       ^     Fedora Documentation Project 
 Sr. Developer Relations Mgr.     |  fedoraproject.org/wiki/DocsProject
   quaid.108.redhat.com           |          gpg key: AD0E0C41
////////////////////////////////// \\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\

[Alain PORTAL]

Le vendredi 08 juin 2007, Karsten Wade a écrit :

>  http://fedoraproject.org/L10N/Join 
404: Sorry! We couldn't find that file. :-D

-- 
Les pages de manuel Linux en français
http://manpagesfr.free.fr/

[Bart Couvreur]

Op vrijdag 08-06-2007 om 21:06 uur [tijdzone +0200], schreef Alain
PORTAL:
>  Le vendredi 08 juin 2007, Karsten Wade a écrit :
>  
>  > http://fedoraproject.org/L10N/Join
>  
>  404: Sorry! We couldn't find that file. :-D
>   
Heh, that should be http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/L10N/Join

we still have a wiki Karsten :-)

In any case welcome Bruno!
If you have any problems what so ever, don't hesitate to post here and we'll help
you out.

Regards,
Bart

-- 
Bart <couf(a)fedoraproject.org&gt; <couf(a)skynet.be&gt;
key fingerprint: 6AAB 544D 3432 D013 776D  3602 ADB6 6B2A D93F 0F93

[Alain PORTAL]

Le vendredi 08 juin 2007, Alain PORTAL a écrit :

>  > I can transalte documents from english to spanish, just tell me
> what i
>  > need to transalte.
>
>  Join the spanish team !
>  And subscribe to its mailing list. 
Where are the mailing lists???????????
https://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/

Why the french translation isn't listed?
And probably many more....
-- 
Les pages de manuel Linux en français
http://manpagesfr.free.fr/

[Xavi Conde]

Hi Karsten,

2007/6/8, Karsten Wade <kwade(a)redhat.com&gt;:
>  On Thu, 2007-06-07 at 11:22 +0200, Xavier Conde Rueda wrote:
>
>  > That's great, I was afraid the process was going to be as complicated
>  > as for docs; for me all this bureaucracy doesn't reflect the opennes
>  > of the Fedora project. Thanks.
>
>  FWIW, you really only need 'cvsl10n' to translate documentation (now);
>  this changed a few months ago.
>
>  Can you list what specifically was bothersome about the Fedora Account
>  System (FAS) process?
>
>  I ask because every contributor to Fedora has to go through some version
>  of the account sign-up.  Translators have been left out of this system
>  for a long time.  The benefits of being part of FAS to you personally as
>  well as to Fedora are much, much more than the hassle to each
>  individual.
>  
Comparing the process of getting an account on i18n.fedora.com, it was
very much complicated to get access for cvsl10n. In addition to
i18n.fedora.com, i had to create a FAS and a GPG key, which I don't
think are mandatory, nor creating a wiki page about myself. I also had
to answer an automatic message and sign it before replying to it. And
besides getting cvsl10n I also needed access to cvsgroups, since I had
to create some files on docs-common needed to build the documentation
(i.e the "this is a draft" png/svg), which are owned by cvsl10n. You
only need to be added to cvsl10n in case the mentioned files do exist.

>  But it doesn't have to be painful. :)  So, serious suggestions on
> what
>  to fix are greatly appreciated.
>  
I think it is too much work, to much pages to read just to get a
general idea of the proces. I found it a very complicated process
since I just wanted to commit po files. It is really needed to get a
FAS and a gpg key and create a wiki and write a straight introduction?
It doesn't seem to me like it is so an open process if they ask me my
phisical address and phone number. It doesn't make sense, you only
need my e-mail. Why so many data about myself? I think an easy basic
process is enough.

I think the minimum steps should be creating an ssh key and requesting
addition to both groups, and that's all, at least for translation. I
understand a FAS can be useful for docs team, but i see translation
team not as a single team but as a group of indepenent sub-teams. I
think getting cvs access is enough for translation.

Hope I made my point clear, i just think it's too much work. I suppose
other people disagree :) . Anyway, I did all the steps, though :) .

Regards.

>  - Karsten
>  --
>     Karsten Wade, 108 Editor       ^     Fedora Documentation Project
>   Sr. Developer Relations Mgr.     |  fedoraproject.org/wiki/DocsProject
>     quaid.108.redhat.com           |          gpg key: AD0E0C41
>  ////////////////////////////////// \\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\
>
>  --
>  Fedora-trans-list mailing list
>  Fedora-trans-list(a)redhat.com
>  https://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/fedora-trans-list
>
>  

-- 
Google talk/Jabber: xavi.conde a gmail.com

[Karsten Wade]

On Thu, 2007-06-07 at 11:17 +1000, Chester Cheng wrote:
>  You are talking about docs translation.  For Fedora software
>  translation,
>  there are not any change yet.  We are working on new infrastructure to
>  make things easier, such as single sign-on for Fedora software
>  translation
>  and other services (e.g. Bugzilla).  
Are you referring to Dimitris' GSoC project?

If not, who is "we"?  Where are some pages describing this work?

- Karsten
-- 
   Karsten Wade, 108 Editor       ^     Fedora Documentation Project 
 Sr. Developer Relations Mgr.     |  fedoraproject.org/wiki/DocsProject
   quaid.108.redhat.com           |          gpg key: AD0E0C41
////////////////////////////////// \\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\

["Piotr \"Raven\" Drąg"]

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
Hash: SHA1

I think it's good time to delete empty (about, homepage, readme,
readme-burning-isos), unused (install-guide, release-notes) and
deprecated (http://tinyurl.com/2xz77g) modules.

- --
Piotr "Raven" Drąg
http://raven.pmail.pl/
> -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
> Version: GnuPG v1.4.7 (GNU/Linux)
>
> iD8DBQFGbAhcjBBsaE0M6qkRAlr1AJ9p3zw/A+gTBdj0drq1FD59awDZiACgr9wx
> bj7rgGesoRLJTOea1ztasl4=
> =n6yd
> -----END PGP SIGNATURE-----