Hi.
In the middle of trying to figure out a dev platform. So, looking at a blank slate to figure out what version of OS should have on the "work" laptop. Project work will be on the laptop as well as cloud VM..
At the same time (if it matters), looking to to have a new laptop -- 12-16G, 256GSSD/1TB, 6-8 core.
I'd prefer to have an OS that's rather stable, as I'm not looking to be the "sys admin" role.. Although, if I can find a remote sys admin that I could trust for a reasonable fee. I could be down for it. Given that this is Fed, I expect the maority of replies will lean to Fed!
So, I'm interested in thoughts for the group.
Thanks
Actually you may be better off with CENTOS for stability. Another consideration will be your desktop manager. As some use more resources than others. My opinion, the simpler the better.
On Wed, May 19, 2021 at 12:08 PM bruce badouglas@gmail.com wrote:
Hi.
In the middle of trying to figure out a dev platform. So, looking at a blank slate to figure out what version of OS should have on the "work" laptop. Project work will be on the laptop as well as cloud VM..
At the same time (if it matters), looking to to have a new laptop -- 12-16G, 256GSSD/1TB, 6-8 core.
I'd prefer to have an OS that's rather stable, as I'm not looking to be the "sys admin" role.. Although, if I can find a remote sys admin that I could trust for a reasonable fee. I could be down for it. Given that this is Fed, I expect the maority of replies will lean to Fed!
So, I'm interested in thoughts for the group.
Thanks _______________________________________________ users mailing list -- users@lists.fedoraproject.org To unsubscribe send an email to users-leave@lists.fedoraproject.org Fedora Code of Conduct: https://docs.fedoraproject.org/en-US/project/code-of-conduct/ List Guidelines: https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Mailing_list_guidelines List Archives: https://lists.fedoraproject.org/archives/list/users@lists.fedoraproject.org Do not reply to spam on the list, report it: https://pagure.io/fedora-infrastructure
On Wed, 19 May 2021 12:06:56 -0400 bruce wrote:
So, I'm interested in thoughts for the group.
For things I want to be relatively stable, I've tended to use the ubuntu LTS release with long support times so I have no reason to upgrade frequently.
I started using fedora because where I worked our software ran on redhat, and fedora was a good thing to use to get early warning of things that would break in future redhat releases. That got me used to fedora, so I've stuck with it for my main system, but it does become annoying to upgrade every 6 months (though I've just gone from 33 to 34 with relatively few problems).
On 19 May at 11:16, Terry Polzin foxec208@gmail.com wrote:
Actually you may be better off with CENTOS for stability.
Except Redhat has dropped CentOS. They announced it in December; lessee...here's an article:
https://talesfromthedatacenter.com/2020/12/centos-and-the-bomb-that-ibm-red-...
I've not been following what's happened in the few months since then, but the end result will still probably be that CentOS isn't the go-to it was.
Cheers, -- Dave Ihnat
On Wed, 2021-05-19 at 11:23 -0500, Dave Ihnat wrote:
On 19 May at 11:16, Terry Polzin foxec208@gmail.com wrote:
Actually you may be better off with CENTOS for stability.
Except Redhat has dropped CentOS. They announced it in December; lessee...here's an article:
The CentOS developers seem to be moving to a new workalike called Rocky Linux:
https://news.itsfoss.com/rocky-linux-announcement/
billo
They dropped "releases". What it is now appears to be a continuous stream of rolling updates with no defined 7.9 release, just a stream.
For a stable OS I am not sure that is any better or worse than releases.
With fedora changing major package versions it might cause chaos, but it probably would not be that much worse.
I sometimes hold off updating until I am 2 versions out and will say run on 32 for a year and when it goes out of support go 32->33 and 33->34 quickly, and then stay on 34 for a while.
On the original question: If you want/need cutting edge libraries and tools for your development, then you need to use fedora or something similar. If you are ok with potentially using a 5 year old patched library and/or compiler and/or tools with none of the new features then go with one of the enterprise type distributions.
If you attempt to make the enterprise cutting edge you end up doing a lot of work to install extra libraries in separate locations so that your enterprise OS still functions with the expected libraries. Even if you do this right bringing down and installing the newer tools is enough work that you should just use fedora as that should have better resources to ask questions.
On Wed, May 19, 2021 at 11:23 AM Dave Ihnat dihnat@dminet.com wrote:
On 19 May at 11:16, Terry Polzin foxec208@gmail.com wrote:
Actually you may be better off with CENTOS for stability.
Except Redhat has dropped CentOS. They announced it in December; lessee...here's an article:
https://talesfromthedatacenter.com/2020/12/centos-and-the-bomb-that-ibm-red-...
I've not been following what's happened in the few months since then, but the end result will still probably be that CentOS isn't the go-to it was.
Cheers,
Dave Ihnat
users mailing list -- users@lists.fedoraproject.org To unsubscribe send an email to users-leave@lists.fedoraproject.org Fedora Code of Conduct: https://docs.fedoraproject.org/en-US/project/code-of-conduct/ List Guidelines: https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Mailing_list_guidelines List Archives: https://lists.fedoraproject.org/archives/list/users@lists.fedoraproject.org Do not reply to spam on the list, report it: https://pagure.io/fedora-infrastructure
I've actually.made the move to a combination of Rocky Linux and Alma Linux...theyre both suitable to the tasks at hand!
EGO II
On Wed, May 19, 2021, 12:58 PM Bill Oliver vendor@billoblog.com wrote:
On Wed, 2021-05-19 at 11:23 -0500, Dave Ihnat wrote:
On 19 May at 11:16, Terry Polzin foxec208@gmail.com wrote:
Actually you may be better off with CENTOS for stability.
Except Redhat has dropped CentOS. They announced it in December; lessee...here's an article:
The CentOS developers seem to be moving to a new workalike called Rocky Linux:
https://news.itsfoss.com/rocky-linux-announcement/
billo
users mailing list -- users@lists.fedoraproject.org To unsubscribe send an email to users-leave@lists.fedoraproject.org Fedora Code of Conduct: https://docs.fedoraproject.org/en-US/project/code-of-conduct/ List Guidelines: https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Mailing_list_guidelines List Archives: https://lists.fedoraproject.org/archives/list/users@lists.fedoraproject.org Do not reply to spam on the list, report it: https://pagure.io/fedora-infrastructure
On 19 May at 11:58, Bill Oliver vendor@billoblog.com wrote:
The CentOS developers seem to be moving to a new workalike called Rocky Linux:
Yeah, there was discussion of a couple of fork projects planned back in December. The downsides are twofold, that I see--first, this is no longer an "official" RedHat distro. And secondly, at this time it's very much a work in progress, and will be for a while (as will any other fork). It remains to be seen if it, or any other fork, is successful. And if there are others, who will win as "the best".
Cheers, -- Dave Ihnat
On Wed, 19 May 2021 at 13:18, Tom Horsley horsley1953@gmail.com wrote:
On Wed, 19 May 2021 12:06:56 -0400 bruce wrote:
So, I'm interested in thoughts for the group.
For things I want to be relatively stable, I've tended to use the ubuntu LTS release with long support times so I have no reason to upgrade frequently.
Ubuntu is very widely used around the world, but their LTS releases sometimes mean you have to go outside the core distro when you need a current version of some library. Linux Mint is based on Ubuntu with simpler desktop environment that many users prefer.
I started using fedora because where I worked our software ran on redhat, and fedora was a good thing to use to get early warning of things that would break in future redhat releases. That got me used to fedora, so I've stuck with it for my main system, but it does become annoying to upgrade every 6 months (though I've just gone from 33 to 34 with relatively few problems).
I use Fedora for similar reasons, and have VM's for other distros. These are very useful when something doesn't work for a user with another distro.
Debian unstable provides an early warning system for Ubuntu.
Some of my current projects "just work" in Debian, then I have to work out what other distros got wrong. Many key libraries have a myriad of build-time configuration options, starting with compiler options that target low-end processors. Most distros build the packages with a default configuration that invariably omits a feature I need. All this means that I end up installing only basic things and rely on local builds of the libraries I'm using.
On 2021-05-19 12:23 p.m., Dave Ihnat wrote:
On 19 May at 11:16, Terry Polzin foxec208@gmail.com wrote:
Actually you may be better off with CENTOS for stability.
Except Redhat has dropped CentOS. They announced it in December; lessee...here's an article:
https://talesfromthedatacenter.com/2020/12/centos-and-the-bomb-that-ibm-red-...
I've not been following what's happened in the few months since then, but the end result will still probably be that CentOS isn't the go-to it was.
They didn't drop it at all. They changed from a fixed release schedule to a rolling release. As a potential dev environment, this is a huge improvement. RedHat and CentOS tend to be running ancient versions of tools and apps in the name of stability - not what you need when you're developing new things. I expect that the difference between Fedora (an excellent dev platform IMHO) and CentOS (previously a trailing-edge production platform) will shrink significantly.
If you develop on Fedora, your biggest issue is going to be how to deploy on RedHat when their supported libs are 5 or 7 major revs back. I do not think that Fedora (and therefore also the new CentOS) will be suitable for most deployments, unless you are ok with the agile mindset - minor dev rework and redeploying constantly. On the other hand, with the latest updates always being installed, it is far more secure than its locked-in-the-past parent. RedHat tends to wait a long time and then emit official security-only fixes every few months, leaving you exposed for a pretty dangerous window if you don't pay for the most expensive top-tier support. YMMV of course.
On 5/19/21 6:06 PM, bruce wrote:
Hi.
In the middle of trying to figure out a dev platform. So, looking at a blank slate to figure out what version of OS should have on the "work" laptop. Project work will be on the laptop as well as cloud VM..
In general, until not too long ago, Fedora used to be an excellent choice for dev-purposes.
Unfortunately, this does not apply anymore, due to some strategic decisions Fedora and RHAT have taken, IMO.
At the same time (if it matters), looking to to have a new laptop -- 12-16G, 256GSSD/1TB, 6-8 core.
I'd prefer to have an OS that's rather stable, as I'm not looking to be the "sys admin" role.. Although, if I can find a remote sys admin that I could trust for a reasonable fee. I could be down for it. Given that this is Fed, I expect the maority of replies will lean to Fed!
So, I'm interested in thoughts for the group.
As much as I hate to say so, as a long term Fedora user, ATM, probably some Ubuntu variant is the best choice.
Ralf
On 5/19/21 10:08 AM, Roger Heflin wrote:
They dropped "releases". What it is now appears to be a continuous stream of rolling updates with no defined 7.9 release, just a stream.
They didn't drop releases entirely, just minor releases. And that's good, because minor releases in CentOS were a bug. They did not improve reliability the way that minor releases improve RHEL reliability.
On 5/19/21 10:50 AM, John Mellor wrote:
They didn't drop it at all. They changed from a fixed release schedule to a rolling release. As a potential dev environment, this is a huge improvement. RedHat and CentOS tend to be running ancient versions of tools and apps in the name of stability - not what you need when you're developing new things.
As a point of clarification: CentOS Stream is not a rolling release, it is a release with "rolling updates". That is only to say that there are no longer minor releases every six months. That's pretty much the only significant change. As a consequence, CentOS Stream is still going to have the same "ancient versions" that RHEL does, overall. Stream will get updates destined for RHEL a little earlier than RHEL gets them, but it's not going to get updates that would be unsuitable for RHEL.
For development systems where you want very contemporary packages, Fedora is a good choice. For production systems where you want more conservative updates, CentOS Stream is a good choice. For systems where you want a support contract, RHEL is a good choice.
On 19 May at 13:24, Gordon Messmer gordon.messmer@gmail.com wrote:
They didn't drop releases entirely, just minor releases. And that's good, because ...
Those who want CentOS are a different type of user than Fedora. They have production machines for which LTS stability is far more important than latest'n'greatest. THAT is dropped--you're likely to have to do a big-bang refresh on CentOS now every 30-60 days, a no-go for most production environments. It's really screwed with a lot of my clients.
Cheers, -- Dave Ihnat
On 5/19/21 11:29 AM, Dave Ihnat wrote:
Those who want CentOS are a different type of user than Fedora. They have production machines for which LTS stability is far more important than latest'n'greatest. THAT is dropped--you're likely to have to do a big-bang refresh on CentOS now every 30-60 days, a no-go for most production environments. It's really screwed with a lot of my clients.
CentOS Stream provides LTS stability, though a lot of community reactions would lead you to believe otherwise. CentOS Stream is *not* latest'n'greatest.
On 5/19/21 9:58 AM, Bill Oliver wrote:
The CentOS developers seem to be moving to a new workalike called Rocky Linux:
Rocky Linux was created by a former CentOS developer (one of the founders). However, I'm not aware of any current developers moving to other rebuilds. Those developers are now working on CentOS Stream.
Well, from these responses I can deduce one thing for sure:
Whatever CentOS is these days, their press releases were not very clear about it :-).
On 5/19/21 11:07 AM, Ralf Corsepius wrote:
On 5/19/21 6:06 PM, bruce wrote:
Hi.
In the middle of trying to figure out a dev platform. So, looking at a blank slate to figure out what version of OS should have on the "work" laptop. Project work will be on the laptop as well as cloud VM..
In general, until not too long ago, Fedora used to be an excellent choice for dev-purposes.
Unfortunately, this does not apply anymore, due to some strategic decisions Fedora and RHAT have taken, IMO.
What are these decisions? I certainly don't see any reason why Fedora isn't an excellent choice for development. I haven't had any problems with it.
On Wed, 2021-05-19 at 11:52 -0700, Gordon Messmer wrote:
On 5/19/21 9:58 AM, Bill Oliver wrote:
The CentOS developers seem to be moving to a new workalike called Rocky Linux:
Rocky Linux was created by a former CentOS developer (one of the founders). However, I'm not aware of any current developers moving to other rebuilds. Those developers are now working on CentOS Stream.
Yeah, it all seems kind of up in the air to me. I run CentOS on one of my websites, and am a bit concerned about what I'm going to do when end of life comes.
I' kind of waiting to see what FermiLabs does. They sort of dropped Scientific Linux as a variant of RHEL in favor of CentOS and then were suprised when CentOS made the change. As far as I can tell, they are still deciding what to do. Whichever way the Scientific Linux people jump, it will probably be associated with some stability.
billo
On Wed, May 19, 2021 at 01:29:31PM -0500, Dave Ihnat wrote:
Those who want CentOS are a different type of user than Fedora. They have production machines for which LTS stability is far more important than latest'n'greatest. THAT is dropped--you're likely to have to do a big-bang refresh on CentOS now every 30-60 days, a no-go for most production environments. It's really screwed with a lot of my clients.
I know there's a lot of worry, but this particular one doesn't really make sense. All changes going into CentOS Stream are accepted for inclusion in an upcoming minor release of RHEL. You get those updates sooner rather than later, but the net result is the same.
I am not qualified to answer your question, but I will throw in some vague opinions.
You probably do not want to be updating your system and packages every week. Some packages you may want to never update: systemd, mesa, glibc, kernel, plymouth, firefox. You might not want wayland, pipewire, the latest Bluetooth, Gnome 40.
You may want to AVOID a laptop with an Nvidia card.
You may want to avoid a laptop with any dedicated graphics card.
You may find your new laptop's internal wi-fi does not work.
Why use Fedora ? If you are in USA, it is a good choice. The forums are helpful - as long as you make a faithful effort to learn to fix things with some vague guidance.
You probably do not need Version 34.
Dozens of small but great Linux distros lack package maintainers and mirrors and developers. A good example is Mageia and OpenMandriva.
OpenSUSE Leap is popular.
There are a lot of distros that are really just prototypes, or Alpha quality. For example, Devuan.
Some fine distros are barely treading-water, like Peppermint, and Seduction.
Some distros are popular in a certain region. For example, ROSA is an excellent distro, but most of the fan-base is Russian. Similar thing could be said about Deepin being popular in China.
Since you are likely going to purchase a Windows laptop, then you should try to run one of the Linux distros offered by the WSL2.
Linux specific laptops are still to expensive for most users. It is a risky investment.
Another idea, is since the market is moving towards ARM-based laptop's, you might consider a totally new platform.
A cheap option worth at least looking at is that with a good Chromebook, you can run Linux apps pretty good. Unless you hate Google, it seems like an interesting way to learn Linux ( Crostini ?? )
You probably want Fedora 33 Xfce or Mate.
Feel free to correct me, shoot me, or enlighten me.
David Locklear Arcola, Texas USA Newbie Rawhide User "Live on the Edge, Live in Rawhide on Metal"
On 5/19/21 4:48 PM, Matthew Miller wrote:
I know there's a lot of worry, but this particular one doesn't really make sense. All changes going into CentOS Stream are accepted for inclusion in an upcoming minor release of RHEL. You get those updates sooner rather than later, but the net result is the same.
IMO, the "stability" issue with CentOS stream is around the possible level of "churn" in the package stream.
By way of contrast, there's no question that there will be vastly more change in the underlying code between one Fedora kernel RPM and the next. The thing that is potentially (I haven't checked) similar though is the frequency with which those RPMs are released.
If CentOS Stream is frequently releasing updated kernel RPMs, CentOS Stream admins still have to either apply those updates and reboot, or they have to invest the time to understand the (presumably very minor) differences between those kernel RPMs in order to determine whether they need to do so.
So it's not stability in the sense of stuff being broken; it's stability in the sense of stuff being disruptive.
On Wed, 2021-05-19 at 11:24 -0700, Gordon Messmer wrote:
They didn't drop releases entirely, just minor releases. And that's good, because minor releases in CentOS were a bug. They did not improve reliability the way that minor releases improve RHEL reliability.
Arrghhh, someone narrating their power point presentation.
On Wed, 2021-05-19 at 18:38 -0500, Ian Pilcher wrote:
So it's not stability in the sense of stuff being broken; it's stability in the sense of stuff being disruptive.
I can see three major aspects to that:
1. Me, who has a webserver, mailserver, whatever, and wants it to keep on running without having to continually tinker with it manually. A well managed rolling-release system may succeed there. But speaking as a person who gave up doing updates on updates years ago, now always does fresh installs, as it removes detritus that accumulates over the years, I forsee that a rolling-release system will accumulate cruft that causes problems over the years.
2. Others who write code need to have predictable behaviour out of their systems, it's hard to write code when the goalposts keep changing. If coding is your job, you may well jump to another distro that's more reliable.
3. Those who need a trustworthy system running in their office, business, lab, whatever, may only use systems that they can vet adequately. A changing system is inherently unvetted, and may not allow such systems to be used.
I use CentOS on a server, here, because Fedora's rapid changes are too disruptive (to me) but Fedora is tolerable on a workstation. I stuck at CentOS 7 because of what I read about 8, first triggered off when I read the end-of-life dates for both systems. I'll probably be replacing the hardware when 7 goes end of life.
On 5/20/21 3:18 AM, Tim via users wrote:
- Me, who has a webserver, mailserver, whatever, and wants it to keep
on running without having to continually tinker with it manually. A well managed rolling-release system may succeed there.
Cool, but neither Fedora nor CentOS Stream are rolling releases, so there's no reason to worry about this with any of the systems in discussion.
- Others who write code need to have predictable behaviour out of
their systems, it's hard to write code when the goalposts keep changing. If coding is your job, you may well jump to another distro that's more reliable.
The API/ABI policy is the same for CentOS Stream as it is for the corresponding RHEL release, so the goalposts aren't going to move any more on CentOS Stream than they do on RHEL (or on CentOS today).
On Fedora, of course, the goalposts may shift at roughly 6 month intervals.
I use CentOS on a server, here, because Fedora's rapid changes are too disruptive (to me) but Fedora is tolerable on a workstation. I stuck at CentOS 7 because of what I read about 8, first triggered off when I read the end-of-life dates for both systems. I'll probably be replacing the hardware when 7 goes end of life.
I don't know what you've read about CentOS Stream, but the vast majority of what I've read from sources outside Red Hat have been pure FUD. An awful lot of people have entirely the wrong idea about what's happening.
Thanks for all the comments!
A number of things to consider.
An additional question? Are there any resources/services/people you might know of who do remote sys admin stuff for the small dev/project operation?
Thanks
On Thu, May 20, 2021 at 12:21 PM Gordon Messmer gordon.messmer@gmail.com wrote:
On 5/20/21 3:18 AM, Tim via users wrote:
- Me, who has a webserver, mailserver, whatever, and wants it to keep
on running without having to continually tinker with it manually. A well managed rolling-release system may succeed there.
Cool, but neither Fedora nor CentOS Stream are rolling releases, so there's no reason to worry about this with any of the systems in discussion.
- Others who write code need to have predictable behaviour out of
their systems, it's hard to write code when the goalposts keep changing. If coding is your job, you may well jump to another distro that's more reliable.
The API/ABI policy is the same for CentOS Stream as it is for the corresponding RHEL release, so the goalposts aren't going to move any more on CentOS Stream than they do on RHEL (or on CentOS today).
On Fedora, of course, the goalposts may shift at roughly 6 month intervals.
I use CentOS on a server, here, because Fedora's rapid changes are too disruptive (to me) but Fedora is tolerable on a workstation. I stuck at CentOS 7 because of what I read about 8, first triggered off when I read the end-of-life dates for both systems. I'll probably be replacing the hardware when 7 goes end of life.
I don't know what you've read about CentOS Stream, but the vast majority of what I've read from sources outside Red Hat have been pure FUD. An awful lot of people have entirely the wrong idea about what's happening. _______________________________________________ users mailing list -- users@lists.fedoraproject.org To unsubscribe send an email to users-leave@lists.fedoraproject.org Fedora Code of Conduct: https://docs.fedoraproject.org/en-US/project/code-of-conduct/ List Guidelines: https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Mailing_list_guidelines List Archives: https://lists.fedoraproject.org/archives/list/users@lists.fedoraproject.org Do not reply to spam on the list, report it: https://pagure.io/fedora-infrastructure
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