On Sat, Dec 20, 2008 at 10:00 AM, Jeff Spaleta jspaleta@gmail.com wrote:
On Fri, Dec 19, 2008 at 9:10 PM, Dimi Paun dimi@lattica.com wrote:
So what do we get for asking that we see this changed?
- snide remarks
In this thread..ive seen snide comments from multiple parties on both sides. I've seen a round in the cycle of existing hostilities. There are no saints here, we are all sinners. Keeping score of the assumed intent of the multitude of emotional comments on one side or the other is futile and serves no useful purpose. If you are keeping score of snide comments, then you've already given up on a constructive discussion. You have to be able to give everyone the benefit of the doubt as to intent. The medium of email is excruciatingly poor at communicating irrational emotive discourse. The subtle nuances of body language, or vocal and facial ques which regulate the flow of face to face conversations are not there to help us read intent with any accuracy whatsoever.
- we are ask to produce numbers nobody can produce
In this thread, I have not seen the decision makers ask that numbers be produced. I see numbers being produced by people to sustain their own arguments and getting upset that other are critical of the numbers. The numbers are a false premise, they shouldn't be debated, they should be summarily ignored. To debate them gives credibility to the idea that accurate numbers are going to impact the design, and no one has come forward and promised that in this thread..
- we are sent on wild goose chances "upstream" when this is a packages maintained by RH.
Yes this has happened in this thread. I have in fact done this myself before and I still stand by it. If this change is going to be made is going to be made as part of an upstream discussion around the design goals of the default GNOME experience, a discussion broader in scope than this one change.
I think the proponents of change do a disservice to their chosen cause in choosing the argumentation they have so far. Trying to coerce a change by hammering away with the blunt instruments of populism. It's not going to work. Coercion is the wrong method and populist arguments are the wrong tool. You have to persuade the decision-makers, and to do that you have to understand how they prioritize and think. The art of persuasion is a subtle science. It's brain surgery, not to be performed with the hammer or rhetoric or with the pitchforks and torches of populist appeal. You have to crawl inside the heads of the people whose minds you are looking to change, and think like them.
But hey, these things happen, we can work around them. What's not cool is the attitude that it's OK to diss the users. That just sucks the fun out of being part of Fedora.
I think you are reading way to much into the responses of a a very long and very heated discussion which this thread is but one chapter. The exact same sort of thing could be said about it being uncool to diss developers. There have certainty been posts in this thread which could be read as dissing developers. I think we can all agree that its uncool to diss people generally. I'll go further and say that most people are going to screw up and when things get heated are going to choose words poorly and end up writing something that is laced with too much emotion and will be interpreted as a personal slight or attack. The real trick is figuring out how to make it possible to keep those mistakes from invoking another round of emotional responses in a self-perpetuating cycle of over-reaction.
-jef
Oke, first thing first. I subscribed to the gnome usability list and added that. this mail is being send to them as well so therefore i include my original message.
My original message: On Thu, Dec 18, 2008 at 9:56 PM, Mark markg85@gmail.com wrote:
Hey,
The question is simple: Lets use the browser view of nautilus in the next fedora release.
Motivation: A new window for each folder that i open is so painful!!
- My taskbar fills up in notime each time i open a new folder
- New features of nautilus: tabbed browsing! completely useless if
your not using the browser mode 3. Tabbed browsing (files/folders or web) is "hot" these days 4. It feels so.. old (windows 95? 3.11?) just to name a few
Cross posted to the devel list because it's for the next fedora version (currently in development thus the devel list)
Bug report: https://bugzilla.redhat.com/show_bug.cgi?id=477052 (wow! i couldn't find an existing one for this! made one myself)
So, lets vote:
+1 from me
I hope this can be done for Fedora 11 (it's just changing one gconf value). All vote plz
Mark.
To the people reading the gnome usability list and see this for the first time.. look here for the full discussion (about 150 posts): http://fcp.surfsite.org/modules/newbb/viewtopic.php?topic_id=65669&viewm...
Now to react on the memory and cpu stuff (heavy off topic but i want to respond on that). I don't give a damn that memory and cpu are cheap these days. does that mean my memory needs to be full with junk and have a 100% cpu load all the time? NO and NO! I want my pc to be fast and not to work as a heater in my room.
Now on topic. Lets do a little rounding up (conclusions how i see them! correct me if i'm wrong on any of them)
1. Somewhere in 2003 or 2004 it is decided for whatever reason to make the spatial mode in nautilus and put it as the default mode. To my knowledge no research is done if people even wanted that. it just got pushed through there throat and they are expected to just take it in not spit it out. We are now (and a lot of users back then) spitting that decision out and clear that bad taste. Nearly all gnome based distributions do the same and the people using those distributions seems to be happy about the browser mode.
2. I always was under the impression that gnome especially was a democracy but it turns out it's under dictatorship and then call it: "Meritocracy" with a dictator like taste.
3. Fedora has a community but when the community starts demanding something (use the browser mode as default) then it turns out that the actual fedora community, the ones that are helping to make fedora "better", are just a hand full of people. the rest (like me) can be easily put aside and be ignored. It would be good if Max Spevack or Paul Frields would respond on this. So there we are.. yelling to change something but just about 10 max 20 ppl are being listened to. What i or any other community member says is simply being ignored. WE, the community want this feature to change and i'm not going to be silent about it! Also i HAD the idea that the fedora community was democratic as well. They have votes in fesco with just 10!!!! people but we can't have it here because it's "not representative" the fedora community lead (those max 20 ppl) is just a dictatorship group. As long as the community thinks the same as them there is no issue. But when we think different we see the true fedora community leadership aka dictatorship.
4. There is just ONE person here that decided to make it spatial and that one person can't be convinced (Alexander Larson). Just look at the replys here of the ppl that want the browser mode and the people that want the spatial mode. browser mode is heavily in favor here! And coming with good arguments to "convince" Mr. Larson that his idea is flawed and browser mode should be the default is useless because he kinda made it! and he, of cause, believes in his own (broken) invention. He, Alexander Larson, added the "always_use_browser" in gconf and turned it to false by default! By turning it to false he, since gnome 2.6 now, has enabled the spatial mode for all of us. It IS a flawed desicion which perhaps wasn't obvious back then in 2004 but is more then clear now in 2008 nearly 2009.
5. I was about to open a bug report on gnome for this now but it turns out there is one already: http://bugzilla.gnome.org/show_bug.cgi?id=427628
6. Convincing people.. yea possible but is FOUR (yes 4!) FREAKING YEARS not proof enough that there decision was wrong. If that doesn't convince them, again mainly or even only Alexander Larson, then they can simply not be convinced in this subject.
7. This is a conclusion again about the community. A few months ago Max Spevack came to my school to hold a presentation about linux, redhat and fedora and open source in general. He also told some things about the community and how they got things done that otherwise wouldn't have been done or a lot later. At that time i already knew that the fedora community was going in the wrong direction. Everything they did just didn't seem to lead anywhere. the result of that was the extremely buggy Fedora 9 release which was another few months before Max came to my school. So for me the community was going in the wrong direction. Now it all becomes much clearer to me because now i know that there is no big community at all! there might be in numbers but that's it. nice for marketing talk. the actual community is just about 20 ppl from what i can see and they do NOT listen to the others (thousands?) i'm not quite sure if max said something like 1100 community members or 11000...
A very good example of the bad community direction is, to name someone again, Rahul. He always points you to your mistakes (fine in a way) but never adds (not in my experience) something constructive or helpful.... always a link to a wiki of somekind.
And for this entire issue where i made this thread for in the first place. Don't expect me to be silent now. I will be vocal about this. fedora has a "freedom" sign in it's logo so make that a reality!
On Sat, Dec 20, 2008 at 9:02 AM, Mark markg85@gmail.com wrote:
To the people reading the gnome usability list and see this for the first time.. look here for the full discussion (about 150 posts): http://fcp.surfsite.org/modules/newbb/viewtopic.php?topic_id=65669&viewm...
Mark, you need to re-think your strategy of cross-posting from an already heated discussion into a new list. You are not necessarily helping your cause by dragging emotionality around across lists. If your is goal is to be sensationalistic, you will probably succeed. If your goal is to encourage more people in the meritocracy to listen to you, you are probably failing. I think you should re-think your approach a bit, its extremely heavy handed. All you are doing by keeping this current thread alive is hardening opinion, not changing minds.
-jef
On Sat, Dec 20, 2008 at 8:16 PM, Jeff Spaleta jspaleta@gmail.com wrote:
On Sat, Dec 20, 2008 at 9:02 AM, Mark markg85@gmail.com wrote:
To the people reading the gnome usability list and see this for the first time.. look here for the full discussion (about 150 posts): http://fcp.surfsite.org/modules/newbb/viewtopic.php?topic_id=65669&viewm...
Mark, you need to re-think your strategy of cross-posting from an already heated discussion into a new list. You are not necessarily helping your cause by dragging emotionality around across lists. If your is goal is to be sensationalistic, you will probably succeed. If your goal is to encourage more people in the meritocracy to listen to you, you are probably failing. I think you should re-think your approach a bit, its extremely heavy handed. All you are doing by keeping this current thread alive is hardening opinion, not changing minds.
-jef
What do you expect of me? I started nice and what did i get in return: "we don't vote here" and there is no other way to get the word out.
To remember how i started:
On Thu, Dec 18, 2008 at 9:56 PM, Mark markg85@gmail.com wrote:
Hey,
The question is simple: Lets use the browser view of nautilus in the next fedora release.
Motivation: A new window for each folder that i open is so painful!!
- My taskbar fills up in notime each time i open a new folder
- New features of nautilus: tabbed browsing! completely useless if
your not using the browser mode 3. Tabbed browsing (files/folders or web) is "hot" these days 4. It feels so.. old (windows 95? 3.11?) just to name a few
Cross posted to the devel list because it's for the next fedora version (currently in development thus the devel list)
Bug report: https://bugzilla.redhat.com/show_bug.cgi?id=477052 (wow! i couldn't find an existing one for this! made one myself)
So, lets vote:
+1 from me
I hope this can be done for Fedora 11 (it's just changing one gconf value). All vote plz
Mark.
I didn't start emotional.. to be honest.. i'm not emotional at all about this issue. just a little irritated by how easy spatial got in and how hard it is to get out.
And i seem to be on the moderation list now from gnome's usability.. that's what happens when you try to improve something with the best intentions.
On Sat, Dec 20, 2008 at 10:28 AM, Mark markg85@gmail.com wrote:
What do you expect of me? I started nice and what did i get in return: "we don't vote here" and there is no other way to get the word out.
No mark you didn't start nice. You started out demanding a vote in order to coerce a change. Demanding a vote is not a nice way to hold a discussion. Votes in the real world of democratic town meetings and representative state legislatures, are what happens at the end of discussions. Votes stop discussion in the real world. By starting this thread with a vote, you implied that discussion was in fact not what you wanted.
-jef
On Sat, Dec 20, 2008 at 8:41 PM, Jeff Spaleta jspaleta@gmail.com wrote:
On Sat, Dec 20, 2008 at 10:28 AM, Mark markg85@gmail.com wrote:
What do you expect of me? I started nice and what did i get in return: "we don't vote here" and there is no other way to get the word out.
No mark you didn't start nice. You started out demanding a vote in order to coerce a change. Demanding a vote is not a nice way to hold a discussion. Votes in the real world of democratic town meetings and representative state legislatures, are what happens at the end of discussions. Votes stop discussion in the real world. By starting this thread with a vote, you implied that discussion was in fact not what you wanted.
-jef
Now that you say it like that you might be right. However my post was not with the intention to demand a vote.. just to.. vote how you liked it.
Btw your idea of "my spin idea" might very well be true ^_^ it's just that it sucks up so much time which i don't want to spend at it.
On Sat, Dec 20, 2008 at 10:53 AM, Mark markg85@gmail.com wrote:
Now that you say it like that you might be right.
I'm always right. That has never been the problem for me. Its just one of those inherent truths of the universe. But you know what, its not enough for me to be right all the time. The skill I've had to learn over time is how to persuade other people, I'm still learning. It's a trick you should probably invest some time thinking about developing.
However my post was not with the intention to demand a vote.. just to.. vote how you liked it.
Yes, your actual intention was probably not the intention people read into your actions. The same could be said for people on the other side. Noone has figured out how to write a markup language for human intention...and as a result any passionate discussion degrades severely as we are wired to read intention but without body language and vocal ques...we absolutely do it wrong when relying solely on written language. Even more so with English! If we mandated everyone encode thought into Lisp we'd be having more constructive discussions (and less of them). The productivity of the list would be through the roof.
Btw your idea of "my spin idea" might very well be true ^_^ it's just that it sucks up so much time which i don't want to spend at it.
That's a copout excuse. You are spending a lot of time right now beating your head on the brick wall on this issue. Figuring out a technical solution in the form of a LiveCD under the umbrella of the GNOME project might actually be the better argument than what you are doing now.
-jef
On Sat, Dec 20, 2008 at 9:24 PM, Jeff Spaleta jspaleta@gmail.com wrote:
On Sat, Dec 20, 2008 at 10:53 AM, Mark markg85@gmail.com wrote:
Now that you say it like that you might be right.
I'm always right. That has never been the problem for me. Its just one of those inherent truths of the universe.
don't get over confidence now
But you know what, its not enough for me to be right all the time. The skill I've had to learn over time is how to persuade other people, I'm still learning. It's a trick you should probably invest some time thinking about developing.
... if i sometime want that i will contact you oke?
However my post was not with the intention to demand a vote.. just to.. vote how you liked it.
Yes, your actual intention was probably not the intention people read into your actions. The same could be said for people on the other side. Noone has figured out how to write a markup language for human intention...and as a result any passionate discussion degrades severely as we are wired to read intention but without body language and vocal ques...we absolutely do it wrong when relying solely on written language. Even more so with English! If we mandated everyone encode thought into Lisp we'd be having more constructive discussions (and less of them). The productivity of the list would be through the roof.
... i think i agree ...
Btw your idea of "my spin idea" might very well be true ^_^ it's just that it sucks up so much time which i don't want to spend at it.
That's a copout excuse. You are spending a lot of time right now beating your head on the brick wall on this issue. Figuring out a technical solution in the form of a LiveCD under the umbrella of the GNOME project might actually be the better argument than what you are doing now.
not an excuse just a fact. besides that fact i just need to use fedora with a project of mine.
Jeff Spaleta wrote:
That's a copout excuse. You are spending a lot of time right now beating your head on the brick wall on this issue. Figuring out a technical solution in the form of a LiveCD under the umbrella of the GNOME project might actually be the better argument than what you are doing now.
Is there a fixed policy on how fedora must relate to upstream packages? That is, do you have a requirement to take every default that the upstream has (themes, etc.)? Or can any packager make any whimsical change he wants at any time? Or something in between?
On Sat, Dec 20, 2008 at 9:38 PM, Les Mikesell lesmikesell@gmail.com wrote:
Jeff Spaleta wrote:
That's a copout excuse. You are spending a lot of time right now beating your head on the brick wall on this issue. Figuring out a technical solution in the form of a LiveCD under the umbrella of the GNOME project might actually be the better argument than what you are doing now.
Is there a fixed policy on how fedora must relate to upstream packages? That is, do you have a requirement to take every default that the upstream has (themes, etc.)? Or can any packager make any whimsical change he wants at any time? Or something in between?
-- Les Mikesell lesmikesell@gmail.com
What they all said so far is that it either has to be done upstream or the package maintainer has to do it by making a patch. In this nautilus case that's the same person. (i won't name him this time because they also say that won't help the discussion ^_^)
Les Mikesell wrote:
Is there a fixed policy on how fedora must relate to upstream packages? That is, do you have a requirement to take every default that the upstream has (themes, etc.)? Or can any packager make any whimsical change he wants at any time? Or something in between?
The packager can make changes.
But in the case of the Fedora GNOME packages, upstream and packagers are mostly the same people.
Kevin Kofler
- I always was under the impression that gnome especially was a
democracy but it turns out it's under dictatorship and then call it: "Meritocracy" with a dictator like taste.
No, gnome is not a democracy at all, and does not claim to be. The individual module maintainers basically have total control over their modules. They can accept or reject patches and ideas. You can call that benevolent dictatorship if you like.
Maintainers become maintainers by doing the bulk of the hard coding work.
The Gnome Foundation board is elected, but the foundation does not aim to tell what the developers to do. It provides logistics, support, and advocacy.
Just dispelling some notions...
Personally, I don't like the spatial view either... or the fact that I can't rename a file from within the filechooser...
Some of my patches are accepted. Some are rejected. C'est la vie.
- Mike