Subject says it all. Fedora developers tell us that they can't give us a choice of KDE version and yet Ubuntu is doing it.
Ironically, Fedora says their distribution is more cutting edge and yet Ibex gets kernel 2.6.27 and we are still stuck with 2.6.26.
I think the KDE-3.5.10 decision demonstrates that Ubuntu developers are more sensitive to user end needs.
I know a bunch of people are going to chime in and say "Fedora isn't for you" and "Its a bleeding edge distribution", etc. I think those are just excuses for a developer community that wants to do it own thing irregardless of what users actually want.
Don't shoot me, I'm just the squeaky wheel/messenger.
On Thu, 2008-10-30 at 18:55 +0100, Sebastian Vahl wrote:
Am Thu, 30 Oct 2008 10:56:38 -0400 schrieb Linuxguy123 linuxguy123@gmail.com:
Subject says it all. Fedora developers tell us that they can't give us a choice of KDE version and yet Ubuntu is doing it.
Ironically, Fedora says their distribution is more cutting edge and yet Ibex gets kernel 2.6.27 and we are still stuck with 2.6.26.
I think the KDE-3.5.10 decision demonstrates that Ubuntu developers are more sensitive to user end needs.
I've not checked it but this seems not to be true: https://wiki.kubuntu.org/Kubuntu/KDE3-KDE4Migration
""" Will 8.10 include KDE 3?
8.10 will only include KDE 4 as its desktop. KDE 3 will not be available. As the code-name suggests, Intrepid is intended as a deliberately cutting edge release, if you would rather stay with what you know 8.04 continues to be fully supported. The development team decided that time and manpower considerations as well as the probable(possible) lack of further 3.5x releases prevent them from maintaining 2 separate versions, and KDE 4 was chosen as the version to move forward with. """
http://www.linuxformat.co.uk/static/ubuntu810.html
States:
Software versions
Kernel 2.6.27 X.Org 7.4 GNOME 2.24.1 KDE (Kubuntu) 4.1.2 (3.5.10 available) OpenOffice.org 2.4.1 Firefox 3.0.3
On Thu, Oct 30, 2008 at 9:56 AM, Linuxguy123 linuxguy123@gmail.com wrote:
Subject says it all. Fedora developers tell us that they can't give us a choice of KDE version and yet Ubuntu is doing it.
What's your point?
Ironically, Fedora says their distribution is more cutting edge and yet Ibex gets kernel 2.6.27 and we are still stuck with 2.6.26.
I have kernel 2.6.27 from the Fedora repos, what's your point?
I think the KDE-3.5.10 decision demonstrates that Ubuntu developers are more sensitive to user end needs.
That's nice. Not at all true, but nice that you think that.
I know a bunch of people are going to chime in and say "Fedora isn't for you" and "Its a bleeding edge distribution", etc. I think those are just excuses for a developer community that wants to do it own thing irregardless of what users actually want.
It's a community distro, the people who put in the effort always get to decide.
Don't shoot me, I'm just the squeaky wheel/messenger.
You're being a waste of time now.
-- fedora-list mailing list fedora-list@redhat.com To unsubscribe: https://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/fedora-list Guidelines: http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Communicate/MailingListGuidelines
On Thu, 2008-10-30 at 10:56 -0400, Linuxguy123 wrote:
Subject says it all. Fedora developers tell us that they can't give us a choice of KDE version and yet Ubuntu is doing it.
Where did they say *can't*? They said they didn't want to because it was messy and KDE3 had no future. Fine by me. If you can't deal with this, you know what to do.
poc
Linuxguy123 wrote:
Subject says it all. Fedora developers tell us that they can't give us a choice of KDE version
To be clear: http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/SIGs/KDE/KDE4FAQ
Early F-9 development time-frame, based primarily on what upstream supports, available man-power, and experience, the Fedora-KDE SIG reached a unanimous conclusion that it was simply not realistically feasible to implement and support 2 kde desktops.
(hmm... nice little sound-bite, I should add that to the aforemenioned FAQ)
and yet Ubuntu is doing it.
and good for Ubuntu! They also have my pity for trying to support the mess it creates.
I've repeatedly advocated if there were any enterprising folks willing to put in the time and hard work to make KDE3 work alongside KDE4, by all means, go for it. I'd even be willing to offer advice and a little help. But, knowing how hard it would be, I (and most of the existing Fedora-KDE SIG) choose not to go there ourselves.
-- Rex
On Thu, 2008-10-30 at 10:56 -0400, Linuxguy123 wrote:
Subject says it all. Fedora developers tell us that they can't give us a choice of KDE version and yet Ubuntu is doing it.
Ironically, Fedora says their distribution is more cutting edge and yet Ibex gets kernel 2.6.27 and we are still stuck with 2.6.26.
I think the KDE-3.5.10 decision demonstrates that Ubuntu developers are more sensitive to user end needs.
I know a bunch of people are going to chime in and say "Fedora isn't for you" and "Its a bleeding edge distribution", etc. I think those are just excuses for a developer community that wants to do it own thing irregardless of what users actually want.
Don't shoot me, I'm just the squeaky wheel/messenger.
---- actually, I for one would have thought that between August and now, you would stop griping about it or have at least read the explanation on the wiki page that Rex Dieter has linked several times on this very subject.
Please feel free to use Ubuntu, I do from time to time.
You are welcome to become part of the developer community...it's open to participation. That sort of means that people who choose not to participate in the development community don't often get polled on decisions.
You have griped endlessly about KDE 4 and the road map should be evidently clear to you, it isn't going to change, KDE 3.5 is not going to be coming back and at some point in time, KDE will catch up with features lost in regression but that time is an upgrade to Fedora 10 and some updates to KDE away.
You are a broken record.
Craig
Am Thu, 30 Oct 2008 10:56:38 -0400 schrieb Linuxguy123 linuxguy123@gmail.com:
Subject says it all. Fedora developers tell us that they can't give us a choice of KDE version and yet Ubuntu is doing it.
Ironically, Fedora says their distribution is more cutting edge and yet Ibex gets kernel 2.6.27 and we are still stuck with 2.6.26.
I think the KDE-3.5.10 decision demonstrates that Ubuntu developers are more sensitive to user end needs.
I've not checked it but this seems not to be true: https://wiki.kubuntu.org/Kubuntu/KDE3-KDE4Migration
""" Will 8.10 include KDE 3?
8.10 will only include KDE 4 as its desktop. KDE 3 will not be available. As the code-name suggests, Intrepid is intended as a deliberately cutting edge release, if you would rather stay with what you know 8.04 continues to be fully supported. The development team decided that time and manpower considerations as well as the probable(possible) lack of further 3.5x releases prevent them from maintaining 2 separate versions, and KDE 4 was chosen as the version to move forward with. """
I think those are just excuses for a developer community that wants to do it own thing irregardless of what users actually want.
Believe me, that isn't true either. And as it was said in an earlier thread (IIRC): Join the KDE-SIG, offer your help, raise your voice, get participated (in a way you want to or being able to) and you will finally see this for yourself.
Sebastian
On Thu, 2008-10-30 at 20:03 +0100, Ralf Corsepius wrote:
On Thu, 2008-10-30 at 12:45 -0500, Rex Dieter wrote:
Linuxguy123 wrote:
Subject says it all. Fedora developers tell us that they can't give us a choice of KDE version
and yet Ubuntu is doing it.
and good for Ubuntu! They also have my pity for trying to support the mess it creates.
http://zonker.opensuse.org/2008/10/17/right-call-on-kde-3x-for-opensuse-111/
I am not sure that link works, but this one does: http://lizards.opensuse.org/2008/09/10/kde3-and-kde4-for-opensuse/
On Thu, 2008-10-30 at 10:56 -0400, Linuxguy123 wrote:
Subject says it all. Fedora developers tell us that they can't give us a choice of KDE version and yet Ubuntu is doing it.
Ironically, Fedora says their distribution is more cutting edge and yet Ibex gets kernel 2.6.27 and we are still stuck with 2.6.26.
I think the KDE-3.5.10 decision demonstrates that Ubuntu developers are more sensitive to user end needs.
I know a bunch of people are going to chime in and say "Fedora isn't for you" and "Its a bleeding edge distribution", etc. I think those are just excuses for a developer community that wants to do it own thing irregardless of what users actually want.
Don't shoot me, I'm just the squeaky wheel/messenger.
|================================| | | | Please don't feed | | the troll. | | Thank you | | | |================================| || || || || ----------------------------------
"The subject says it all..."
- Gilboa
On Thu, 2008-10-30 at 12:45 -0500, Rex Dieter wrote:
Linuxguy123 wrote:
Subject says it all. Fedora developers tell us that they can't give us a choice of KDE version
and yet Ubuntu is doing it.
and good for Ubuntu! They also have my pity for trying to support the mess it creates.
http://zonker.opensuse.org/2008/10/17/right-call-on-kde-3x-for-opensuse-111/
Ralf Corsepius wrote:
On Thu, 2008-10-30 at 12:45 -0500, Rex Dieter wrote:
Linuxguy123 wrote:
Subject says it all. Fedora developers tell us that they can't give us a choice of KDE version
and yet Ubuntu is doing it.
and good for Ubuntu! They also have my pity for trying to support the mess it creates.
http://zonker.opensuse.org/2008/10/17/right-call-on-kde-3x-for-opensuse-111/
Of course, kudos to Opensuse too for having the manpower (and guts) to support that. Their kde team is top notch.
-- Rex
Linuxguy123 wrote:
I know a bunch of people are going to chime in and say "Fedora isn't for you" and "Its a bleeding edge distribution", etc. I think those are just excuses for a developer community that wants to do it own thing irregardless of what users actually want.
Why should they do what "users actually want", when that's totally different from the purpose of the distro. It's like going to McDonald's and complaining that they don't offer lobster. You're missing the point.
Matt Flaschen
Matthew Flaschen wrote:
Linuxguy123 wrote:
I know a bunch of people are going to chime in and say "Fedora isn't for you" and "Its a bleeding edge distribution", etc. I think those are just excuses for a developer community that wants to do it own thing irregardless of what users actually want.
Why should they do what "users actually want", when that's totally different from the purpose of the distro. It's like going to McDonald's and complaining that they don't offer lobster. You're missing the point.
McDonald's has a price factor that might make it attractive - and they give away toys. When the choice is among free linux distributions, what is the point of making one into something users don't want?
On Thu, 2008-10-30 at 13:07 -0400, Linuxguy123 wrote:
On Thu, 2008-10-30 at 18:55 +0100, Sebastian Vahl wrote:
Am Thu, 30 Oct 2008 10:56:38 -0400 schrieb Linuxguy123 linuxguy123@gmail.com:
Subject says it all. Fedora developers tell us that they can't give us a choice of KDE version and yet Ubuntu is doing it.
Ironically, Fedora says their distribution is more cutting edge and yet Ibex gets kernel 2.6.27 and we are still stuck with 2.6.26.
I think the KDE-3.5.10 decision demonstrates that Ubuntu developers are more sensitive to user end needs.
I've not checked it but this seems not to be true: https://wiki.kubuntu.org/Kubuntu/KDE3-KDE4Migration
""" Will 8.10 include KDE 3?
8.10 will only include KDE 4 as its desktop. KDE 3 will not be available. As the code-name suggests, Intrepid is intended as a deliberately cutting edge release, if you would rather stay with what you know 8.04 continues to be fully supported. The development team decided that time and manpower considerations as well as the probable(possible) lack of further 3.5x releases prevent them from maintaining 2 separate versions, and KDE 4 was chosen as the version to move forward with. """
http://www.linuxformat.co.uk/static/ubuntu810.html
States:
Software versions
Kernel 2.6.27 X.Org 7.4 GNOME 2.24.1 KDE (Kubuntu) 4.1.2 (3.5.10 available) OpenOffice.org 2.4.1 Firefox 3.0.3
---- http://www.kubuntu.org/news/8.10-release
seems pretty clear what it is that they're shipping to me but hey, knock yourself out
if that's not clear enough for you
https://wiki.kubuntu.org/Kubuntu/KDE3-KDE4Migration
See the second Q/A... Will 8.10 include KDE 3? 8.10 will only include KDE 4 as its desktop. KDE 3 will not be available.
Craig
Les Mikesell wrote:
McDonald's has a price factor that might make it attractive - and they give away toys. When the choice is among free linux distributions, what is the point of making one into something users don't want?
As shown by the size of this mailing list, plenty of users do want Fedora. But trying to please everyone is always futile.
Matt Flaschen
On Thu, Oct 30, 2008 at 3:59 PM, Les Mikesell lesmikesell@gmail.com wrote:
Matthew Flaschen wrote:
Linuxguy123 wrote:
I know a bunch of people are going to chime in and say "Fedora isn't for you" and "Its a bleeding edge distribution", etc. I think those are just excuses for a developer community that wants to do it own thing irregardless of what users actually want.
Why should they do what "users actually want", when that's totally different from the purpose of the distro. It's like going to McDonald's and complaining that they don't offer lobster. You're missing the point.
McDonald's has a price factor that might make it attractive - and they give away toys. When the choice is among free linux distributions, what is the point of making one into something users don't want?
Well I sure want Fedora. And I'd like to believe that I'm a Fedora user.
On Thu, Oct 30, 2008 at 4:02 PM, Matthew Flaschen matthew.flaschen@gatech.edu wrote:
Les Mikesell wrote:
McDonald's has a price factor that might make it attractive - and they give away toys. When the choice is among free linux distributions, what is the point of making one into something users don't want?
As shown by the size of this mailing list, plenty of users do want Fedora. But trying to please everyone is always futile.
Matt Flaschen
More importantly, trying to please people who didn't care enough to attend the public meeting and discuss this before hand has got to be a fairly low priority when it comes to work intensive decisions like this.
Les Mikesell wrote:
McDonald's has a price factor that might make it attractive - and they give away toys. When the choice is among free linux distributions, what is the point of making one into something users don't want?
Are you deliberately missing the point, or is the concept of making a distribution that appeals to a specific group of users, and trying to please them, beyond you? Off hand, I would say Fedora is giving their target audience what they want. At least they are giving me what I want.
Mikkel
Linuxguy123 wrote:
Subject says it all. Fedora developers tell us that they can't give us a choice of KDE version and yet Ubuntu is doing it.
Ironically, Fedora says their distribution is more cutting edge and yet Ibex gets kernel 2.6.27 and we are still stuck with 2.6.26.
I think the KDE-3.5.10 decision demonstrates that Ubuntu developers are more sensitive to user end needs.
I know a bunch of people are going to chime in and say "Fedora isn't for you" and "Its a bleeding edge distribution", etc. I think those are just excuses for a developer community that wants to do it own thing irregardless of what users actually want.
Don't shoot me, I'm just the squeaky wheel/messenger.
Hi
I think you are comparing 2 different things. You should compare Fedora 9 with Ubuntu 8.04, and ibex with Fedora 10. I use F10 and the kernel is 2.6.27.
I don't know about KDE because I use Gnome.
Marcelo
Matthew Flaschen wrote:
Linuxguy123 wrote:
I know a bunch of people are going to chime in and say "Fedora isn't for you" and "Its a bleeding edge distribution", etc. I think those are just excuses for a developer community that wants to do it own thing irregardless of what users actually want.
Why should they do what "users actually want", when that's totally different from the purpose of the distro. It's like going to McDonald's and complaining that they don't offer lobster. You're missing the point.
Matt Flaschen
It is kind of like this place near me - they have great breakfasts and lunches. But they close at 4:pm, except for Fridays, so except for the Friday fish fry, you can not go there for dinner. This schedule fits 95% of their customer's needs. Staying open for diner to meet the extra needs of the other 5% would not be cost effective.
Mikkel
Linuxguy123 <linuxguy123 <at> gmail.com> writes:
Subject says it all. Fedora developers tell us that they can't give us a choice of KDE version and yet Ubuntu is doing it.
That's not true: All packages in Intrepid containing "kdebase": http://packages.ubuntu.com/search?keywords=kdebase&searchon=names&su... -> only 4.1.2 stuff, no KDE 3 stuff!
All packages in Intrepid containing "kde3": http://packages.ubuntu.com/search?keywords=kde3&searchon=names&suite... -> only some bindings, no apps.
So where's the KDE 3 you're talking about? Ubuntu Intrepid Ibex DOES NOT INCLUDE KDE 3! See also the link posted by Sebastian Vahl: https://wiki.kubuntu.org/Kubuntu/KDE3-KDE4Migration which is very clear on this.
Ironically, Fedora says their distribution is more cutting edge and yet Ibex gets kernel 2.6.27 and we are still stuck with 2.6.26.
Because they just released it! Fedora 10 will also have 2.6.27 at release time.
A 2.6.27 update for Fedora 9 has been built in Koji, I'm sure it will hit updates-testing soon.
It's a different thing to release a new distro with a new kernel, where the betas have been tracking the betas of the kernel all this time, than to update an existing distro to the new kernel version. Fedora is actually one of the few distributions even doing the latter. You're just being impatient (while at the same time complaining that KDE is too new), 2.6.27 WILL be pushed to F9.
I think the KDE-3.5.10 decision demonstrates that Ubuntu developers are more sensitive to user end needs.
The "KDE-3.5.10 decision" you're talking about is completely imaginary, they actually made the exact same decision we did (not to ship KDE 3 anymore)! So their ACTUAL decision on KDE 3.5.10 actually proves the exact opposite of your point (i.e. that we did the right thing).
I know a bunch of people are going to chime in and say "Fedora isn't for you" and "Its a bleeding edge distribution", etc. I think those are just excuses for a developer community that wants to do it own thing irregardless of what users actually want.
They are just hard facts. That said, even Kubuntu which primarily targets new users now decided NOT to ship KDE 3.
Don't shoot me, I'm just the squeaky wheel/messenger.
To stay with your analogy, you're the liar messenger who is relaying a false message, so of course you will be proverbially "executed" (in the sense of "shooting the messenger") for it. ;-) The "don't shoot the messenger" saying only makes sense when you're really just relaying a truthful message, it doesn't excuse spreading FUD. Next time please check the facts before pulling up an argumentation entirely based on incorrect information, otherwise you're just wasting everyone's time.
Kevin Kofler
Linuxguy123 <linuxguy123 <at> gmail.com> writes:
[snip]
KDE (Kubuntu) 4.1.2 (3.5.10 available)
That's just the usual incorrect information in a badly-researched article. NEVER believe a random newspaper / news site article, always check facts before building up your entire argumentation on them. You can only trust what the actual developers say, and what they say is clear: https://wiki.kubuntu.org/Kubuntu/KDE3-KDE4Migration
If you still don't believe me, try to find KDE 3 for Intrepid on packages.ubuntu.com or on the Kubuntu images and come back when you found it (i.e. never :-p).
Kevin Kofler
Ralf Corsepius <rc040203 <at> freenet.de> writes:
http://zonker.opensuse.org/2008/10/17/right-call-on-kde-3x-for-opensuse-111/
See my comment on the original Max Spevack post that post references: http://spevack.livejournal.com/67166.html?thread=196446#t196446 (in reply to a comment from an openSUSE guy) for the technical reasons of why this works for openSUSE and not for us.
In addition, what Rex Dieter says about manpower is also true. (They have way more people working on KDE than us.) Kubuntu has a KDE team more comparable in size with ours and they say that "The development team decided that time and manpower considerations as well as the probable(possible) lack of further 3.5x releases prevent them from maintaining 2 separate versions, and KDE 4 was chosen as the version to move forward with." (from https://wiki.kubuntu.org/Kubuntu/KDE3-KDE4Migration ).
Kevin Kofler
-
Arthur Pemberton -
Craig White -
Gilboa Davara -
Kevin Kofler -
Les Mikesell -
linux guy -
Marcelo Garcia -
Matthew Flaschen -
Mikkel -
Patrick O'Callaghan -
Ralf Corsepius -
Rex Dieter -
Sebastian Vahl