I have been looking at smartphones and tablets (I presently own neither, due to outrageous monthly fees and lengthy contracts), as I am starting to feel that I no longer want to do without mobility.
However, how does Fedora fit into this? Is there a way to put Fedora onto a tablet or smartphone?
Ubuntu offers an intriguing compromise, for users of an Android phone. Hook up a keyboard and monitor and run Ubuntu, so you don't exactly have your full system in your hand, but you _do_ have it in your pocket. Pretty cool, but it's not KDE-Fedora!
How do you go about it?
Am 19.03.2013 19:38, schrieb Peter Gueckel:
I have been looking at smartphones and tablets (I presently own neither, due to outrageous monthly fees and lengthy contracts), as I am starting to feel that I no longer want to do without mobility.
However, how does Fedora fit into this? Is there a way to put Fedora onto a tablet or smartphone?
Ubuntu offers an intriguing compromise, for users of an Android phone. Hook up a keyboard and monitor and run Ubuntu, so you don't exactly have your full system in your hand, but you _do_ have it in your pocket. Pretty cool, but it's not KDE-Fedora!
How do you go about it?
this direction is completly wrong a smartphone is not the same as a desktop-computer
terrible enough that these days way too much developers designing interfaces while optimize them for phones and tablets which is plain stupid
yes - i use a Galaxy S3 but i would not come to this train: everywhere the same
On 03/19/2013 12:07 PM, Reindl Harald wrote:
terrible enough that these days way too much developers designing interfaces while optimize them for phones and tablets which is plain stupid
yes - i use a Galaxy S3 but i would not come to this train: everywhere the same
Agreed. A desktop/laptop DE isn't appropriate for a tablet, and the reverse is equally true. What's needed, first, is a specially designed DE that can work with programs designed for other, more traditional Linux environments when needed.
On 03/19/2013 03:07 PM, Reindl Harald wrote:
Am 19.03.2013 19:38, schrieb Peter Gueckel:
I have been looking at smartphones and tablets (I presently own neither, due to outrageous monthly fees and lengthy contracts), as I am starting to feel that I no longer want to do without mobility.
However, how does Fedora fit into this? Is there a way to put Fedora onto a tablet or smartphone?
Ubuntu offers an intriguing compromise, for users of an Android phone. Hook up a keyboard and monitor and run Ubuntu, so you don't exactly have your full system in your hand, but you _do_ have it in your pocket. Pretty cool, but it's not KDE-Fedora!
How do you go about it?
this direction is completly wrong a smartphone is not the same as a desktop-computer
terrible enough that these days way too much developers designing interfaces while optimize them for phones and tablets which is plain stupid
yes - i use a Galaxy S3 but i would not come to this train: everywhere the same
Did you know that a consensus is rapidly developing that the present environment, with desktops (or mini-towers) and laptops dominating, will give place totally to The Cloud, where all data will reside, and you will access it using a smartphone with the occasional auxiliary keyboard and screen? And print to the nearest wireless print server? What advice will you have for the worker in a multinational or Fortune 100 enterprise that decides to build a private Cloud and expects its workers to maintain all data on The Cloud and work with it using smartphones and tablets, to the exclusion of mini-towers and laptops?
By now you are wondering, I'm sure, /Was is los/? Here is an article by Jason Perlow at ZDNet, outlining the new Cloud-ed future:
http://www.zdnet.com/cloud-haters-you-too-will-be-assimilated-7000012059/
Temlakos
On Mar 19, 2013 12:52 PM, "Temlakos" temlakos@gmail.com wrote:
On 03/19/2013 03:07 PM, Reindl Harald wrote:
Am 19.03.2013 19:38, schrieb Peter Gueckel:
I have been looking at smartphones and tablets (I presently own neither, due to outrageous monthly fees and lengthy contracts), as I am starting to feel that I no longer want to do without mobility.
However, how does Fedora fit into this? Is there a way to put Fedora onto a tablet or smartphone?
Ubuntu offers an intriguing compromise, for users of an Android phone. Hook up a keyboard and monitor and run Ubuntu, so you don't exactly have your full system in your hand, but you _do_ have it in your pocket. Pretty cool, but it's not KDE-Fedora!
How do you go about it?
this direction is completly wrong a smartphone is not the same as a desktop-computer
terrible enough that these days way too much developers designing interfaces while optimize them for phones and tablets which is plain stupid
yes - i use a Galaxy S3 but i would not come to this train: everywhere the same
Did you know that a consensus is rapidly developing that the present
environment, with desktops (or mini-towers) and laptops dominating, will give place totally to The Cloud, where all data will reside, and you will access it using a smartphone with the occasional auxiliary keyboard and screen? And print to the nearest wireless print server? What advice will you have for the worker in a multinational or Fortune 100 enterprise that decides to build a private Cloud and expects its workers to maintain all data on The Cloud and work with it using smartphones and tablets, to the exclusion of mini-towers and laptops?
By now you are wondering, I'm sure, /Was is los/? Here is an article by
Jason Perlow at ZDNet, outlining the new Cloud-ed future:
http://www.zdnet.com/cloud-haters-you-too-will-be-assimilated-7000012059/
Temlakos
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Before we look at phones, we ought to question whether these Ubuntu phones are going to sell. Though, considering the other aside of the argument, hand-held data devices are the way computing seems to be headed.
Am 19.03.2013 20:52, schrieb Temlakos:
On 03/19/2013 03:07 PM, Reindl Harald wrote:
Am 19.03.2013 19:38, schrieb Peter Gueckel:
I have been looking at smartphones and tablets (I presently own neither, due to outrageous monthly fees and lengthy contracts), as I am starting to feel that I no longer want to do without mobility.
However, how does Fedora fit into this? Is there a way to put Fedora onto a tablet or smartphone?
Ubuntu offers an intriguing compromise, for users of an Android phone. Hook up a keyboard and monitor and run Ubuntu, so you don't exactly have your full system in your hand, but you _do_ have it in your pocket. Pretty cool, but it's not KDE-Fedora!
How do you go about it?
this direction is completly wrong a smartphone is not the same as a desktop-computer
terrible enough that these days way too much developers designing interfaces while optimize them for phones and tablets which is plain stupid
yes - i use a Galaxy S3 but i would not come to this train: everywhere the same
Did you know that a consensus is rapidly developing that the present environment, with desktops (or mini-towers) and laptops dominating, will give place totally to The Cloud, where all data will reside, and you will access it using a smartphone with the occasional auxiliary keyboard and screen?
*bruhahahaha*
some stupid people really believe this
as the same people believed in a lot of "the next big thing" hypes over the last 10 years like SOAP and nothing happened
this may be a usecase for the typical homeuser which does mostly not more like webbrowsing and write some mails or view vidoes, hear music
this WILL NEVER happen for real work and business cases IF it would happen there then the cloud is a "private cloud" and nothing would replace my workstation because i would be the guy to implement this cloud which unlikely happens from a tablet or mobile phone
NEVER EVER will somebody store critical data in the cloud and if he does we will hear only a last *bang* from this guy after some bad news what went wrong
On Mar 19, 2013 1:28 PM, "Reindl Harald" h.reindl@thelounge.net wrote:
Am 19.03.2013 20:52, schrieb Temlakos:
On 03/19/2013 03:07 PM, Reindl Harald wrote:
Am 19.03.2013 19:38, schrieb Peter Gueckel:
I have been looking at smartphones and tablets (I presently own neither, due to outrageous monthly fees and lengthy contracts), as I am starting to feel that I no longer want to do without mobility.
However, how does Fedora fit into this? Is there a way to put Fedora onto a tablet or smartphone?
Ubuntu offers an intriguing compromise, for users of an Android phone. Hook up a keyboard and monitor and run Ubuntu, so you don't exactly have your full system in your hand, but you _do_ have it in your pocket. Pretty cool, but it's not KDE-Fedora!
How do you go about it?
this direction is completly wrong a smartphone is not the same as a desktop-computer
terrible enough that these days way too much developers designing interfaces while optimize them for phones and tablets which is plain stupid
yes - i use a Galaxy S3 but i would not come to this train: everywhere the same
Did you know that a consensus is rapidly developing that the present
environment,
with desktops (or mini-towers) and laptops dominating, will give place
totally
to The Cloud, where all data will reside, and you will access it using
a smartphone
with the occasional auxiliary keyboard and screen?
*bruhahahaha*
some stupid people really believe this
as the same people believed in a lot of "the next big thing" hypes over the last 10 years like SOAP and nothing happened
this may be a usecase for the typical homeuser which does mostly not more like webbrowsing and write some mails or view vidoes, hear music
this WILL NEVER happen for real work and business cases IF it would happen there then the cloud is a "private cloud" and nothing would replace my workstation because i would be the guy to implement this cloud which unlikely happens from a tablet or mobile phone
NEVER EVER will somebody store critical data in the cloud and if he does we will hear only a last *bang* from this guy after some bad news what went wrong
-- users mailing list users@lists.fedoraproject.org To unsubscribe or change subscription options: https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/users Guidelines: http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Mailing_list_guidelines Have a question? Ask away: http://ask.fedoraproject.org
Reindl:
I believe the best way to build a network team of contributers who are not paid is through synergy. Laughing at some of us and using words like "stupid" to describe really smart and intelligent people goes a long way in killing this goal and driving them, good and bad, away, and dividing us.
Am 19.03.2013 21:43, schrieb Richard Vickery:
On Mar 19, 2013 1:28 PM, "Reindl Harald" <h.reindl@thelounge.net mailto:h.reindl@thelounge.net> wrote:
Am 19.03.2013 20:52, schrieb Temlakos:
On 03/19/2013 03:07 PM, Reindl Harald wrote:
Am 19.03.2013 19:38, schrieb Peter Gueckel:
I have been looking at smartphones and tablets (I presently own neither, due to outrageous monthly fees and lengthy contracts), as I am starting to feel that I no longer want to do without mobility.
However, how does Fedora fit into this? Is there a way to put Fedora onto a tablet or smartphone?
Ubuntu offers an intriguing compromise, for users of an Android phone. Hook up a keyboard and monitor and run Ubuntu, so you don't exactly have your full system in your hand, but you _do_ have it in your pocket. Pretty cool, but it's not KDE-Fedora!
How do you go about it?
this direction is completly wrong a smartphone is not the same as a desktop-computer
terrible enough that these days way too much developers designing interfaces while optimize them for phones and tablets which is plain stupid
yes - i use a Galaxy S3 but i would not come to this train: everywhere the same
Did you know that a consensus is rapidly developing that the present environment, with desktops (or mini-towers) and laptops dominating, will give place totally to The Cloud, where all data will reside, and you will access it using a smartphone with the occasional auxiliary keyboard and screen?
*bruhahahaha*
some stupid people really believe this
as the same people believed in a lot of "the next big thing" hypes over the last 10 years like SOAP and nothing happened
this may be a usecase for the typical homeuser which does mostly not more like webbrowsing and write some mails or view vidoes, hear music
this WILL NEVER happen for real work and business cases IF it would happen there then the cloud is a "private cloud" and nothing would replace my workstation because i would be the guy to implement this cloud which unlikely happens from a tablet or mobile phone
NEVER EVER will somebody store critical data in the cloud and if he does we will hear only a last *bang* from this guy after some bad news what went wrong
Reindl:
I believe the best way to build a network team of contributers who are not paid is through synergy. Laughing at some of us and using words like "stupid" to describe really smart and intelligent people goes a long way in killing this goal and driving them, good and bad, away, and dividing us.
whoever takes the "stupid" in this case targeted to itself must have a good reason to do so - i am living in a IT based BUSINESS world, and no serious business will outsource all it's IT "to the cloud", not now and not in the future
no serious business is allowed to to so for legal reasons
yes, you can build your "private could", well if i would take the buzzword "cloud" serious am still in my "private could" called VMware vSphere, but this doe snot replace WORKSTATIONS
On Mar 19, 2013 2:00 PM, "Reindl Harald" h.reindl@thelounge.net wrote:
Am 19.03.2013 21:43, schrieb Richard Vickery:
On Mar 19, 2013 1:28 PM, "Reindl Harald" <h.reindl@thelounge.net<mailto:
h.reindl@thelounge.net>> wrote:
Am 19.03.2013 20:52, schrieb Temlakos:
On 03/19/2013 03:07 PM, Reindl Harald wrote:
Am 19.03.2013 19:38, schrieb Peter Gueckel:
I have been looking at smartphones and tablets (I presently own neither, due to outrageous monthly fees and lengthy contracts), as I am starting to feel that I no longer want to do without mobility.
However, how does Fedora fit into this? Is there a way to put Fedora onto a tablet or smartphone?
Ubuntu offers an intriguing compromise, for users of an Android phone. Hook up a keyboard and monitor and run Ubuntu, so you don't exactly have your full system in your hand, but you _do_ have it in your pocket. Pretty cool, but it's not KDE-Fedora!
How do you go about it?
this direction is completly wrong a smartphone is not the same as a desktop-computer
terrible enough that these days way too much developers designing interfaces while optimize them for phones and tablets which is plain stupid
yes - i use a Galaxy S3 but i would not come to this train: everywhere the same
Did you know that a consensus is rapidly developing that the present
environment,
with desktops (or mini-towers) and laptops dominating, will give
place totally
to The Cloud, where all data will reside, and you will access it
using a smartphone
with the occasional auxiliary keyboard and screen?
*bruhahahaha*
some stupid people really believe this
as the same people believed in a lot of "the next big thing" hypes over the last 10 years like SOAP and nothing happened
this may be a usecase for the typical homeuser which does mostly not more like webbrowsing and write some mails or view vidoes, hear music
this WILL NEVER happen for real work and business cases IF it would happen there then the cloud is a "private cloud" and nothing would replace my workstation because i would be the guy to implement this cloud which unlikely happens from a tablet or mobile phone
NEVER EVER will somebody store critical data in the cloud and if he does we will hear only a last *bang* from this guy after some bad news what went wrong
Reindl:
I believe the best way to build a network team of contributers who are
not paid is through synergy. Laughing at
some of us and using words like "stupid" to describe really smart and
intelligent people goes a long way in killing
this goal and driving them, good and bad, away, and dividing us.
whoever takes the "stupid" in this case targeted to itself must have a good reason to do so - i am living in a IT based BUSINESS world, and no serious business will outsource all it's IT "to the cloud", not now and not in the future
no serious business is allowed to to so for legal reasons
yes, you can build your "private could", well if i would take the buzzword "cloud" serious am still in my "private could" called VMware vSphere, but this doe snot replace WORKSTATIONS
-- users mailing list users@lists.fedoraproject.org To unsubscribe or change subscription options: https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/users Guidelines: http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Mailing_list_guidelines Have a question? Ask away: http://ask.fedoraproject.org
It is very easy for people, especially new people who have just joined, to get offended when these two words are used in the same email and using such, and then defending use, is also a slippery slope to the combatant use of profane language, neither of which I think we really want to end up with. Remember that, through text, or email, there are no verbal, nor visual, cures as to the meaning behind the message.
Am 19.03.2013 22:16, schrieb Richard Vickery:
On Mar 19, 2013 2:00 PM, "Reindl Harald" <h.reindl@thelounge.net mailto:h.reindl@thelounge.net> wrote:
Am 19.03.2013 21:43, schrieb Richard Vickery:
On Mar 19, 2013 1:28 PM, "Reindl Harald" <h.reindl@thelounge.net mailto:h.reindl@thelounge.net
<mailto:h.reindl@thelounge.net mailto:h.reindl@thelounge.net>> wrote:
Am 19.03.2013 20:52, schrieb Temlakos:
On 03/19/2013 03:07 PM, Reindl Harald wrote:
Am 19.03.2013 19:38, schrieb Peter Gueckel: > I have been looking at smartphones and tablets (I presently own > neither, due to outrageous monthly fees and lengthy contracts), as > I am starting to feel that I no longer want to do without mobility. > > However, how does Fedora fit into this? Is there a way to put > Fedora onto a tablet or smartphone? > > Ubuntu offers an intriguing compromise, for users of an Android > phone. Hook up a keyboard and monitor and run Ubuntu, so you don't > exactly have your full system in your hand, but you _do_ have it in > your pocket. Pretty cool, but it's not KDE-Fedora! > > How do you go about it? this direction is completly wrong a smartphone is not the same as a desktop-computer
terrible enough that these days way too much developers designing interfaces while optimize them for phones and tablets which is plain stupid
yes - i use a Galaxy S3 but i would not come to this train: everywhere the same
Did you know that a consensus is rapidly developing that the present environment, with desktops (or mini-towers) and laptops dominating, will give place totally to The Cloud, where all data will reside, and you will access it using a smartphone with the occasional auxiliary keyboard and screen?
*bruhahahaha*
some stupid people really believe this
as the same people believed in a lot of "the next big thing" hypes over the last 10 years like SOAP and nothing happened
this may be a usecase for the typical homeuser which does mostly not more like webbrowsing and write some mails or view vidoes, hear music
this WILL NEVER happen for real work and business cases IF it would happen there then the cloud is a "private cloud" and nothing would replace my workstation because i would be the guy to implement this cloud which unlikely happens from a tablet or mobile phone
NEVER EVER will somebody store critical data in the cloud and if he does we will hear only a last *bang* from this guy after some bad news what went wrong
Reindl:
I believe the best way to build a network team of contributers who are not paid is through synergy. Laughing at some of us and using words like "stupid" to describe really smart and intelligent people goes a long way in killing this goal and driving them, good and bad, away, and dividing us.
whoever takes the "stupid" in this case targeted to itself must have a good reason to do so - i am living in a IT based BUSINESS world, and no serious business will outsource all it's IT "to the cloud", not now and not in the future
no serious business is allowed to to so for legal reasons
yes, you can build your "private could", well if i would take the buzzword "cloud" serious am still in my "private could" called VMware vSphere, but this doe snot replace WORKSTATIONS
-- users mailing list users@lists.fedoraproject.org mailto:users@lists.fedoraproject.org To unsubscribe or change subscription options: https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/users Guidelines: http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Mailing_list_guidelines Have a question? Ask away: http://ask.fedoraproject.org
It is very easy for people, especially new people who have just joined, to get offended when these two words are used in the same email and using such, and then defending use, is also a slippery slope to the combatant use of profane language, neither of which I think we really want to end up with. Remember that, through text, or email, there are no verbal, nor visual, cures as to the meaning behind the message
WOULD YOU PLEASE STRIP YOUR QUOTES ESPECIALLY REMOVE LIST-FOOTERS unbelievable how care less people write mails...........
well, however, i am not a politician and hopefully never get one i am one of them who hardly tries to understand things and not follow blindly buzzwords from markting-driven authors nor do i consider follow them as smart and i have no time and energy to pack the trth in nice words
WOULD YOU PLEASE STRIP YOUR QUOTES ESPECIALLY REMOVE LIST-FOOTERS unbelievable how care less people write mails...........
well, however, i am not a politician and hopefully never get one i am one of them who hardly tries to understand things and not follow blindly buzzwords from markting-driven authors nor do i consider follow them as smart and i have no time and energy to pack the trth in nice words
Each time each any of us talks to, acts, reacts, our does anything that affects any other person, that is a political act.
On 03/19/2013 03:58 PM, Reindl Harald wrote:
whoever takes the "stupid" in this case targeted to itself must have a good reason to do so - i am living in a IT based BUSINESS world, and no serious business will outsource all it's IT "to the cloud", not now and not in the future
no serious business is allowed to to so for legal reasons
yes, you can build your "private could", well if i would take the buzzword "cloud" serious am still in my "private could" called VMware vSphere, but this doe snot replace WORKSTATIONS
// snip
And once again, you're going off on a tangent. If you don't have an answer for the question, please don't respond. The OP asked if it were possible, not if it were a good idea or if you personally would commit you and your descendants to a lifetime in thrall to the idea.
Am 19.03.2013 23:05, schrieb Steven Stern:
On 03/19/2013 03:58 PM, Reindl Harald wrote:
whoever takes the "stupid" in this case targeted to itself must have a good reason to do so - i am living in a IT based BUSINESS world, and no serious business will outsource all it's IT "to the cloud", not now and not in the future
no serious business is allowed to to so for legal reasons
yes, you can build your "private could", well if i would take the buzzword "cloud" serious am still in my "private could" called VMware vSphere, but this doe snot replace WORKSTATIONS
// snip
And once again, you're going off on a tangent. If you don't have an answer for the question, please don't respond. The OP asked if it were possible, not if it were a good idea or if you personally would commit you and your descendants to a lifetime in thrall to the idea
so to answer the question:
IT IS NOT POSSIBLE WAS THIS CLEAR ENOUGH?
On Tue, Mar 19, 2013 at 09:58:36PM +0100, Reindl Harald wrote:
have a good reason to do so - i am living in a IT based BUSINESS world, and no serious business will outsource all it's IT "to the cloud", not now and not in the future
I know one Fortune 500 company that has no problems with that.
Am 19.03.2013 23:38, schrieb Olav Vitters:
On Tue, Mar 19, 2013 at 09:58:36PM +0100, Reindl Harald wrote:
have a good reason to do so - i am living in a IT based BUSINESS world, and no serious business will outsource all it's IT "to the cloud", not now and not in the future
I know one Fortune 500 company that has no problems with that
surely not - NOT a public cloud where the OP refers
and that is why people should avoid buzzwords if they like to be taken serious
On Tue, Mar 19, 2013 at 11:43:11PM +0100, Reindl Harald wrote:
Am 19.03.2013 23:38, schrieb Olav Vitters:
On Tue, Mar 19, 2013 at 09:58:36PM +0100, Reindl Harald wrote:
have a good reason to do so - i am living in a IT based BUSINESS world, and no serious business will outsource all it's IT "to the cloud", not now and not in the future
I know one Fortune 500 company that has no problems with that
surely not - NOT a public cloud where the OP refers
and that is why people should avoid buzzwords if they like to be taken serious
He said "The Cloud". The servers are not hosted or owned by the company but by two different companies (big ones). The data is not publicly accessible.
Am 19.03.2013 23:55, schrieb Olav Vitters:
On Tue, Mar 19, 2013 at 11:43:11PM +0100, Reindl Harald wrote:
Am 19.03.2013 23:38, schrieb Olav Vitters:
On Tue, Mar 19, 2013 at 09:58:36PM +0100, Reindl Harald wrote:
have a good reason to do so - i am living in a IT based BUSINESS world, and no serious business will outsource all it's IT "to the cloud", not now and not in the future
I know one Fortune 500 company that has no problems with that
surely not - NOT a public cloud where the OP refers
and that is why people should avoid buzzwords if they like to be taken serious
He said "The Cloud". The servers are not hosted or owned by the company but by two different companies (big ones). The data is not publicly accessible
why do you guy not say "I know one Fortune 500 company that has no problems with that and using Amazon EC2" if you mean it?
this is not the same bullshit as "i do no longer need computers because in a short anyhting is done with smartphones and tables"
OK, you are a GNOME3 guy and would love the opposite to have arguments for design a desktop for a mobile, but thats another story
On Tue, Mar 19, 2013 at 11:59:54PM +0100, Reindl Harald wrote:
Am 19.03.2013 23:55, schrieb Olav Vitters:
On Tue, Mar 19, 2013 at 11:43:11PM +0100, Reindl Harald wrote:
Am 19.03.2013 23:38, schrieb Olav Vitters:
On Tue, Mar 19, 2013 at 09:58:36PM +0100, Reindl Harald wrote:
have a good reason to do so - i am living in a IT based BUSINESS world, and no serious business will outsource all it's IT "to the cloud", not now and not in the future
I know one Fortune 500 company that has no problems with that
surely not - NOT a public cloud where the OP refers
and that is why people should avoid buzzwords if they like to be taken serious
He said "The Cloud". The servers are not hosted or owned by the company but by two different companies (big ones). The data is not publicly accessible
why do you guy not say "I know one Fortune 500 company that has no problems with that and using Amazon EC2" if you mean it?
I was specific enough. Not Amazon EC2 actually. And why I am not more specific: not sure how much I can tell and I fail to see why more specifics are important.
In any case: you say businesses don't host things in the cloud. I know one that does. Feel free to continue changing my words or the meaning of what you wrote so that in your view you're still "right". Also feel free to change topics, introduce GNOME 3, go personal, etc. Getting rather predictable.
this is not the same bullshit as "i do no longer need computers because in a short anyhting is done with smartphones and tables"
Whatever.
OK, you are a GNOME3 guy and would love the opposite to have arguments for design a desktop for a mobile, but thats another story
Whatever.
Would be lovely if you'd be booted off this mailing list, but still: whatever.
Olav Vitters wrote:
Would be lovely if you'd (Harald Reindl) be booted off this mailing list, but still: whatever.
Harald may be a little rough around the edges, but he consistently makes helpful and informative posts. In balance, this mailing list would be much worse off without his presence.
In this case, I also happen to agree with him. Just because tablets and smartphones are en vogue at the moment doesn't mean that there isn't a place for more traditional form factors in the future. With so many different distributions, I don't see any reason why any of them should be trying to be one size fits all. I know I certainly don't want to be using a tablet to do my day- to-day development and server administration tasks.
It's all Linux, so there is no need for an "us vs. them" mentality between distributions. If one is more suited for servers, another for desktops, and another for tablets/smartphones then so be it. After all, the Unix philosophy is to "do one thing and do it well".
Regards,
Matthew Roth InterMedia Marketing Solutions Software Engineer and Systems Developer
On 03/20/2013 10:32 AM, Matthew J. Roth wrote:
Just because tablets and smartphones are en vogue at the moment doesn't mean that there isn't a place for more traditional form factors in the future.
That's probably true to some extent. However, have you ever actually seen an Atrix workstation or laptop?
Consider this: You have a fully functional workstation at your desk. You finish up what you're doing and pull the computer out of its dock. The computer has all of your apps, all of your configurations, and all of your data. You can use many of those apps on the computer's 4" touch screen. If you need a larger screen or a keyboard, you break out your "laptop" form-factor dock and plug the computer in to it. Presto, you have all of your apps and data on a laptop and continue your work.
The computer can be used independently, and it can be used in a laptop or workstation dock.
Is there room in THAT world for traditional desktop/workstation computers? Probably some for people who need a lot more computing power than you can readily cool in a package that's the size of a smartphone. But, how much? It's extremely likely that the near future of personal computing will move toward very mobile devices that can be paired with a larger display and input device.
http://haverzine.com/motorola-kills-the-webtop/ http://haverzine.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/10/WebTop_FeatureHero_487x5821....
http://www.techrepublic.com/blog/smartphones/smartphones-like-motorola-atrix...
Am 20.03.2013 19:16, schrieb Gordon Messmer:
Consider this: You have a fully functional workstation at your desk. You finish up what you're doing and pull the computer out of its dock. The computer has all of your apps, all of your configurations, and all of your data. You can use many of those apps on the computer's 4" touch screen. If you need a larger screen or a keyboard, you break out your "laptop" form-factor dock and plug the computer in to it. Presto, you have all of your apps and data on a laptop and continue your work.
what about redundancy aka RAID? what about large data?
The computer can be used independently, and it can be used in a laptop or workstation dock.
and usually all this are compromises which doing nothing of both really well
Is there room in THAT world for traditional desktop/workstation computers? Probably some for people who need a lot more computing power than you can readily cool in a package that's the size of a smartphone. But, how much? It's extremely likely that the near future of personal computing will move toward very mobile devices that can be paired with a larger display and input device
virtualization?
it is not uncommon these days that users rely on it for testing or let special software runs which does not exist in a native version
well, even Windows7 had it BUILT-IN
you need at least CPU power, you need RAM and you need fast disks sorry, but there where i work you will never replace a workstation with such toys in the office instead use the BEST tools for whatever you need instead such crippleded "fits all and nothing"
On 03/20/2013 11:23 AM, Reindl Harald wrote:
what about redundancy aka RAID?
Personal computing rarely involves RAID. Not never, but rarely. And that's my point. There will continue to be high-end workstations with whatever features you want that aren't in mobile devices, but as time goes on, most of the industry expects that market to shink. It will continue to be a very small niche, and it's likely that costs for such equipment will rise (relative to "standard" costs) as that market shrinks.
what about large data?
Personal, mobile computers will continue to grow their capacity as they always have, and fixed workstations will remain for the few people who need more than mobile devices provide.
virtualization?
We fully expect that to come to mobile devices.
you need at least CPU power, you need RAM and you need fast disks sorry, but there where i work you will never replace a workstation with such toys in the office instead use the BEST tools for whatever you need instead such crippleded "fits all and nothing"
Your point of view seems unflexibly narrow. You don't seem to be able to conceive of the simple fact that the future is not entirely like the present. Compare the specs of a smart phone today to devices just 3 or 4 years ago. The growth in capability is astounding.
On 03/20/2013 03:58 PM, Joe Zeff wrote:
On 03/20/2013 12:50 PM, Gordon Messmer wrote:
There will continue to be high-end workstations with whatever features you want that aren't in mobile devices,
Like keyboards big enough for touch typing?
Auxiliary keyboards big enough, as you say, for touch typing, are under development right now. As we speak.
The even bigger item will be a Cloud-based back-end application that will directly transcribe your spoken dictation.
Imagine if you will, yet another remake of the motion picture /Double Indemnity/. Imagine Walter Neff hauling out his smartphone, right where he stands after Phyllis Dietrichson has just shot him, starting the Dragon Dictate App, and starting to talk: "E-mail: Walter Neff to Barton Keyes, Claims Manager," and instantly the e-mail app loads, starts a new message, and puts Barton Keyes' name and e-mail addy in the To: field. Then as Neff keeps talking, "Dear Keyes, This will probably sound like a confession when you read it, but I don't like the word 'confession,'..." the app will start filling in the body. And keep filling it in as long as it takes.
Right up to the time that Mr. Keyes tracks Mr. Neff down using the GPS locator service on their two smartphones.
Think that's the stuff of science fiction? Well, hold onto your seat, because voice command is already a feature of most smartphones that use the i- and Android OS and, I presume, the WinPhone OS, too. From command to dictation is a step that I predict will take not more than five years to take. (Smartphones also carry GPS functions, but that's an aside.)
Now will someone tell me again that smartphones will never replace laptops? What am I missing here?
I can think of only one thing: someone concerned about anyone else, including a third-party Cloud host, having any access to his stuff, even by accident. For example, I don't imagine that James Bond, if he were a real person, would care to store his notes on the Cloud, where Ernst Stavro Blofeld or his minions could hack into it and read them.
But whoever is that concerned with his own security, might wind up paying more, not less, for desktop or laptop equipment with the passage of time. Am I right or wrong?
Temlakos
Am 20.03.2013 21:32, schrieb Temlakos:
On 03/20/2013 03:58 PM, Joe Zeff wrote:
On 03/20/2013 12:50 PM, Gordon Messmer wrote:
There will continue to be high-end workstations with whatever features you want that aren't in mobile devices,
Like keyboards big enough for touch typing?
Auxiliary keyboards big enough, as you say, for touch typing, are under development right now. As we speak.
The even bigger item will be a Cloud-based back-end application that will directly transcribe your spoken dictation.
and the next homeuser which never saw people WORKING with their computers or how do you imagine this with speech-to-text?
hint: it is impossible
Am 20.03.2013 22:01, schrieb poma:
On 20.03.2013 21:35, Reindl Harald wrote: ...
hint: it is impossible
Party braker! :) If they are persistent, let people learn on their mistakes
the problem is that i would be affected too by the stupid try to make a "one-for-all" operating system which fits all and nothing if developers can not resist
for me personally it does not matter if somebody is throwing away all his machines and buys a smartphone to replace them as also it doe snot bother me how many people are using Linux, Windows or OSX at all as long it has no negative impact on my workload and wy too often the "make all idiot proof" attitude has
On 20.03.2013 22:20, Reindl Harald wrote: ...
for me personally it does not matter if somebody is throwing away all his machines and buys a smartphone to replace them as also it doe snot bother me how many people are using Linux, Windows or OSX at all as long it has no negative impact on my workload and wy too often the "make all idiot proof" attitude has
Can't rain all the time.
poma
On 03/20/2013 01:32 PM, Temlakos wrote:
Auxiliary keyboards big enough, as you say, for touch typing, are under development right now. As we speak.
Over a dozen years ago, I had a PDA with a keyboard attachment. It worked fine, but it wasn't exactly convenient to carry. The whole point of a smartphone or tablet is convenience, and adding accessories that are larger than the original device seems a bit counter-intuitive.
On 03/20/2013 01:50 PM, Joe Zeff wrote:
Over a dozen years ago, I had a PDA with a keyboard attachment. It worked fine, but it wasn't exactly convenient to carry. The whole point of a smartphone or tablet is convenience, and adding accessories that are larger than the original device seems a bit counter-intuitive.
Indeed. Most of the time, I only want to carry my phone. When I work on-site, I want to carry my laptop. Right now, I have to carry my phone AND my laptop. If the phone docked in the "laptop" as a peripheral, I'd actually be carrying less than I do now. And when I'm at home, I'd dock the phone into a full size monitor and keyboard. I'd have my data with me all the time, without having to sync between multiple devices. How does that not sound awesome?
On 03/20/2013 09:32 PM, Temlakos wrote:
On 03/20/2013 03:58 PM, Joe Zeff wrote:
On 03/20/2013 12:50 PM, Gordon Messmer wrote:
There will continue to be high-end workstations with whatever features you want that aren't in mobile devices,
Like keyboards big enough for touch typing?
Think that's the stuff of science fiction? Well, hold onto your seat, because voice command is already a feature of most smartphones
Nothing new - It already was available for PCs 10years+ ago.
that use the i- and Android OS and, I presume, the WinPhone OS, too. From command to dictation is a step that I predict will take not more than five years to take.
That's what Dragon told us 10years+ ago ... They have been proven wrong. "Command to dictation" is a _huge_ step, nobody so far has been able to overcome.
Now will someone tell me again that smartphones will never replace laptops?
Yes. They might be able to replace laptops for those folks who don't need much more than a mediaplayer/phone/webbrowser, but for anybody else, esp. those in the professional field, smartphones are no alternative to desktops.
What am I missing here?
Try to insert a 4 TB HD, try to extend its RAM, try to replace the CPU, replace the battery, try to ... ? You say, you don't need this - Likely, today. ... 2 years ahead, you likely would want to be able to do so, instead of having to throw away your smartphone ;)
Ralf
On 03/20/2013 05:44 PM, Ralf Corsepius wrote:
On 03/20/2013 09:32 PM, Temlakos wrote:
On 03/20/2013 03:58 PM, Joe Zeff wrote:
On 03/20/2013 12:50 PM, Gordon Messmer wrote:
There will continue to be high-end workstations with whatever features you want that aren't in mobile devices,
Like keyboards big enough for touch typing?
Think that's the stuff of science fiction? Well, hold onto your seat, because voice command is already a feature of most smartphones
Nothing new - It already was available for PCs 10years+ ago.
that use the i- and Android OS and, I presume, the WinPhone OS, too. From command to dictation is a step that I predict will take not more than five years to take.
That's what Dragon told us 10years+ ago ... They have been proven wrong. "Command to dictation" is a _huge_ step, nobody so far has been able to overcome.
Now will someone tell me again that smartphones will never replace laptops?
Yes. They might be able to replace laptops for those folks who don't need much more than a mediaplayer/phone/webbrowser, but for anybody else, esp. those in the professional field, smartphones are no alternative to desktops.
What am I missing here?
Try to insert a 4 TB HD, try to extend its RAM, try to replace the CPU, replace the battery, try to ... ? You say, you don't need this - Likely, today. ... 2 years ahead, you likely would want to be able to do so, instead of having to throw away your smartphone ;)
Ralf
Ah, but I never said a smartphone would carry terabytes of added storage. The pundits are saying that you "won't need all that storage." All your data will stay on The Cloud, and you will access it with a username and password, same as you do for any subscription service today. You will create and save documents on The Cloud, with a back-end word-processing application. Then you will send e-mail for a short document, or if it's much longer, you'll send a read-only link to your book-length manuscript that will stay on The Cloud, at your designated directory, and you will need your username and password to get read-write access.
Turbo Tax for Business will go the way of Turbo Tax for individuals: completely on-line. Smartphones might bring back the stylus, so you can draw your cursive signature to attach to any document that needs one. So you sign your tax return and send it to the IRS (or Inland Revenue, or /Der Finanzwaltungen der Länder/, or whatever tax office have you).
For really important documents, you print to the nearest print device having a wireless connection to The Cloud. Typically, such a printer will reside in the office of a local Notary Public or Justice of the Peace, or in a courthouse or law office.
That's the vision. Now I realize that many of you simply can't believe that things will ever come to that pass.
Now what else do you need 4 TB of storage for? The usual large file is a video for a one-, two-, or three-hour motion-picture or television program. The next size down is a music track. The idea here is that everyone will subscribe to one of a handful of services. Pay a fixed amount, say 20 USD or 15 EUR; get a link to play a certain movie title, or album, to your smartphone wherever you are, whenever you want. (And maybe 1 EUR or 1.3 USD for what we call a "single" -- one track.) No more CD, DVD, Blu-ray, or other optical medium. No more ripping.
Now the one thing the pundits have not addressed adequately is: security. They define security strictly in terms of "accidental loss of data." Against that, The Cloud is getting better every year. In ten years, it might be well-nigh impervious.
And "accessory to copyright violation" will go away, if everyone now subscribes to digital content, as I described above.
But: what about "unauthorized access to data"? And what about "malicious destruction of data"? Maybe The Cloud can guard its servers against brute-force erasure or corruption. But what about the one who maliciously corrupts the user database, so suddenly The Cloud forgets who you are? Or worse: hijacks your account so that you can't even tell The Cloud who you are, and your data, finances, etc. are in the hands of an impostor. Here in America we call that "identity theft." (/Identitätsdiebstahl/)
And--I realize this is almost totally off topic, and beyond scope for many of you, but I'll say it anyway--there are classes of individuals who keep /very/ sensitive data, in the form of political broadsides or plans of preparation against economic and social collapse, that they do /not/ want known. Especially by the Federal Bureau of Investigation, Scotland Yard, /La Sureté nationale/, /Der Bundeskriminalamt/, Interpol, etc. I think you can well imagine that members of that class of computer users will feel threatened as they never felt threatened before. And they won't be able to afford a "private Cloud."
OK--those are the two sides of the debate on whether mobile devices will ever totally supplant laptops and desktops, and who would, and who would not, /want/ that change to happen. And those are the issues I have seen raised, and that I have raised when no one else did.
Temlakos
Am 20.03.2013 23:19, schrieb Temlakos:
Ah, but I never said a smartphone would carry terabytes of added storage. The pundits are saying that you "won't need all that storage." All your data will stay on The Cloud, and you will access it with a username and password, same as you do for any subscription service today. You will create and save documents on The Cloud, with a back-end word-processing application. Then you will send e-mail for a short document, or if it's much longer, you'll send a read-only link to your book-length manuscript that will stay on The Cloud, at your designated directory, and you will need your username and password to get read-write access
have fun - but have it your own
* have fun if the service provider closes his doors * have fun if they have a intrusion and all your docs are public * have fun make your self completly depending on a comapny * have fun with integrity of your data * have fun with legal aspects if it are working data
yes, of course, this stupidity will happen and some years later having your own storgae will be a glory improvment of the new IT as over decades always the same bullshit get sold as "the new big thing" because enough people are that naive
On 03/20/2013 12:58 PM, Joe Zeff wrote:
Like keyboards big enough for touch typing?
Yes, but probably not limited to that. As I pointed out earlier, we've already seen mobile devices that dock into workstation or laptop form-factor docs, and I expect we'll see more of those in the future. In that case, the mobile devices *will* feature full size keyboards.
On 03/20/2013 01:41 PM, Gordon Messmer wrote:
Yes, but probably not limited to that. As I pointed out earlier, we've already seen mobile devices that dock into workstation or laptop form-factor docs, and I expect we'll see more of those in the future. In that case, the mobile devices *will* feature full size keyboards.
But how mobile will those docks be? From what I can see, you can either be mobile or you can use your device for serious work.
On 03/20/2013 01:52 PM, Joe Zeff wrote:
But how mobile will those docks be? From what I can see, you can either be mobile or you can use your device for serious work.
Do you use your laptop for serious work? I do.
http://www.techrepublic.com/blog/smartphones/smartphones-like-motorola-atrix...
A phone sized device, with the appropriate software, could be just as "serious" as the laptop that I use today.
On Wed, 2013-03-20 at 12:58 -0700, Joe Zeff wrote:
On 03/20/2013 12:50 PM, Gordon Messmer wrote:
There will continue to be high-end workstations with whatever features you want that aren't in mobile devices,
Like keyboards big enough for touch typing?
---- why type? Just use speech. I do.
Craig
On Wed, 20 Mar 2013 20:24:09 -0700 Craig White craigwhite@azapple.com wrote:
why type? Just use speech. I do.
What mobile device do you use? And how do you manage bi-lingual documents (e.g. eng/jap or eng/fra, etc.) using a recognition software?
Am 20.03.2013 20:50, schrieb Gordon Messmer:
virtualization?
We fully expect that to come to mobile devices.
if you would know about you are speaking you would know that you NEVER can virtualize a x86 CPU on ARM architecture
this does not help you to run legacy apps
and i still speak of WORKING with computers
you need at least CPU power, you need RAM and you need fast disks sorry, but there where i work you will never replace a workstation with such toys in the office instead use the BEST tools for whatever you need instead such crippleded "fits all and nothing"
Your point of view seems unflexibly narrow.
i am long enough in the business i switched from noteboom to desktop 2 years ago i saw many buzzwords come and go
You don't seem to be able to conceive of the simple fact that the future is not entirely like the present.
the homeuser future does not interest me nor does it Redhat
Compare the specs of a smart phone today to devices just 3 or 4 years ago. The growth in capability is astounding.
compare the specs of a workstation today and look how stupid developers managed to waste more ressources to not benfit of all the better performance
On 03/20/2013 01:20 PM, Reindl Harald wrote:
if you would know about you are speaking you would know that you NEVER can virtualize a x86 CPU on ARM architecture
I do, but you're still missing several key points. First, Intel is working quite hard to get x86 CPUs into these mobile devices. They want a piece of this action. Second, even if we give up x86, many users don't care The future of computing is not in the stranglehold of backward compatibility.
So, I'll repeat myself. Yes, there will be a niche that's filled by the same systems we have today. Large computers running legacy code, providing whatever doesn't fit in a mobile package. However, that's likely to become increasingly niche.
this does not help you to run legacy apps and i still speak of WORKING with computers
So do I. I'm an IT contractor. I've been a system administrator since 1997. I write software. You don't have to convince me that we'll always need keyboards and large screens. I couldn't work without them. But I could dock a small computer into a fixed keyboard and monitor, do my work, and then take my computer with me when I leave.
Am 20.03.2013 21:40, schrieb Gordon Messmer:
So, I'll repeat myself. Yes, there will be a niche that's filled by the same systems we have today. Large computers running legacy code, providing whatever doesn't fit in a mobile package. However, that's likely to become increasingly niche.
what you guys not realize is the simple fact that currently
a) mobile devices are hyped b) not that much workstations are sold becaus eno need
a few years ago a new desktop PC gave you a huge performance boost, these days with 4x3.4 GHz Sandy Brdige machines having 16 GB of RAM and some TB storage you do not need a new machine for at least 5 years and probably longer
only a idiot would replace a i7-2600 CPU @ 3.40GHz Sandy Bridge with a i7-3770 CPU @ 3.40GHz Ivy Bdrige, and yes i have both of them because i was in the position to do a drop-in-replacement by get a new machine which doe snot need power and switched the disks of my home-server in it, it's faster but not that much and the siwtch was only done because the hardware was there
so what - you need all two years a new mobile device by lack of updates and planned obsolescence and some naive people start to believe "hey desktops are dying"
any bet that in 5-6 years all this low-brainers will rub their eyes because the large amount of sold desktops and the biggest mistake developers can do is cripple down desktop interfaces to smartphones in the meantime
SUMMARY: nobody, really nobody needs Fedora on smartphones there are eonugh systems for them and we do not need every distribution on the planet there instead SPECIALIZED ones which really fit compared to half baken compromises
On 03/20/2013 01:53 PM, Reindl Harald wrote:
what you guys not realize is the simple fact that currently
Seriously, Reindl. Slow down.
We realize. We totally do.
What you don't realize is that we're not telling you what you should use. You can use whatever you want. If you don't want to carry your PC with you, then don't. You'll get along, just like you do now. However, I look forward to the availability of highly mobile PCs which dock into whatever form factor is most convenient for me at any given time. I think that's fantastic.
You get to choose what works best for you, and so does everyone else. Large parts of the industry expects PCs in the future to be more mobile, just like desktop PCs are smaller than mini-computers, which were smaller than mainframes. It's hard to look at the history of computing and disagree. It's hard to look at modern sales and disagree. I'm convinced, and I look forward to it. Computers have gotten smaller and better with each decade, and another generation of shrinking is just as welcome as the last one.
Am 20.03.2013 19:16, schrieb Gordon Messmer:
On 03/20/2013 10:32 AM, Matthew J. Roth wrote: Is there room in THAT world for traditional desktop/workstation computers? extremely likely that the near future of personal computing will move toward very mobile devices that can be paired
and BTW i did 2011 the opposite step
i worked from 2003 until 2011 ONLY on a notebook 2011 i had finally enough from
* the missing disk-io * the missing power at all * if the power was OK the crap get's really loud after 10,12,14 hours of constantly work in front of * no redundancy - yes i do daily backups * BUT after 5 hours of hard work if the notebooks drive dies the backup of the last day is painful
well, the only problem is customer presentations but i managed do them inhouse at my workplace which is doable
at home the exactly same machine works and is a bitwise clone of the whole 4x2 TB RAID10, a msart rsync-script manages to sync all my data and dekstop while i am in the train and this is also one stage of daily backups - doing a mistake at 11 AM - no problem, all data is still laive, doing some critical at one of the systems -> sync them before
the power is a multiple compared with before, i am so much faster in my daily work, i can do so much more things than ever before and i call myself a idiot for working over years with a mobile computer
Gordon Messmer wrote:
That's probably true to some extent. However, have you ever actually seen an Atrix workstation or laptop?
With systems on a chip and ever-shrinking integrated circuits I imagine almost endless computing power being embedded pretty much anywhere and everywhere. Maybe this is how evolution is meant to continue once its pace outruns what biology can keep up with.
It's extremely likely that the near future of personal computing will move toward very mobile devices that can be paired with a larger display and input device.
I guess the focus should be on a DE that can adapt to the different form factors on the fly. No matter what I don't see using the same interface on a 4" screen and multiple large displays being practical.
The future is definitely exciting. I just hope I stay adaptable because change is the only constant.
Regards,
Matthew Roth InterMedia Marketing Solutions Software Engineer and Systems Developer
On 03/20/2013 12:28 PM, Matthew J. Roth wrote:
I guess the focus should be on a DE that can adapt to the different form factors on the fly. No matter what I don't see using the same interface on a 4" screen and multiple large displays being practical.
I don't either, and maybe that's not how things will work.
http://www.ubuntu.com/devices/android
Ubuntu for Android is one possible direction for these devices to take. Untethered, they run an interface that's geared toward a small touch screen, like Android. Tethered (docked), they run applications that access the same data files, but are better suited to keyboard and mouse input.
Or maybe it'll become more common for apps to support two UIs (one touch and one keyboard+mouse) with the same application logic. There will be plenty of experimentation in the space, but the potential is definitely attractive.
On 03/20/2013 07:16 PM, Gordon Messmer wrote:
On 03/20/2013 10:32 AM, Matthew J. Roth wrote:
Just because tablets and smartphones are en vogue at the moment doesn't mean that there isn't a place for more traditional form factors in the future.
That's probably true to some extent. However, have you ever actually seen an Atrix workstation or laptop?
Sure, these beasts certainly have their use-case, ... as extended mobile mediaplayers etc., but not as full replacement for desktops.
I for one compare tablets to motorcyles vs. cars/trucks. motorcyles are fun, nice as complementary "mobility platform", but they are no replacement for cars/trucks in many situations.
Consider this: You have a fully functional workstation at your desk. You finish up what you're doing and pull the computer out of its dock. The computer has all of your apps, all of your configurations, and all of your data. You can use many of those apps on the computer's 4" touch screen. If you need a larger screen or a keyboard, you break out your "laptop" form-factor dock and plug the computer in to it. Presto, you have all of your apps and data on a laptop and continue your work.
Well, I've read similar texts, when laptops became available and affordable, back in the 1990s. As we all have experienced, they haven't swept away the desktop nor did "docked laptops" gain a significant market share. IMO, because laptops etc. suffer from the same limitations as tablets do, these days (Non-extendible, under-powered, etc.).
Ralf
On 03/20/2013 10:32 AM, Matthew J. Roth issued this missive:
Olav Vitters wrote:
Would be lovely if you'd (Harald Reindl) be booted off this mailing list, but still: whatever.
Harald may be a little rough around the edges, but he consistently makes helpful and informative posts. In balance, this mailing list would be much worse off without his presence.
In this case, I also happen to agree with him. Just because tablets and smartphones are en vogue at the moment doesn't mean that there isn't a place for more traditional form factors in the future. With so many different distributions, I don't see any reason why any of them should be trying to be one size fits all. I know I certainly don't want to be using a tablet to do my day- to-day development and server administration tasks.
It's all Linux, so there is no need for an "us vs. them" mentality between distributions. If one is more suited for servers, another for desktops, and another for tablets/smartphones then so be it. After all, the Unix philosophy is to "do one thing and do it well".
Doing anything useful with a tablet (e.g. software development, managing a data center, etc.) is well-nigh impossible. I only use one if I absolutely must and it generally takes MUCH more time to get anything done.
<soap> Tablets and smartphones have their uses. "Tweets" or Facebook update stuff (is your life really so bloody pathetic that you have to share that you ate a peanut butter sandwich to feel "connected"?) is what they're designed for. I will never give up my desktop or large screen laptop (which occasionally gets coupled to my cell phone as a 4G wireless modem). I have to do real work. </soap> ---------------------------------------------------------------------- - Rick Stevens, Systems Engineer, AllDigital ricks@alldigital.com - - AIM/Skype: therps2 ICQ: 22643734 Yahoo: origrps2 - - - - To get that bulldozer airborne, we need more explosives. - - -- Jamie Hyneman - ----------------------------------------------------------------------
On Wed, Mar 20, 2013 at 12:32:11PM -0500, Matthew J. Roth wrote:
Harald may be a little rough around the edges, but he consistently makes helpful and informative posts. In balance, this mailing list would be much worse off without his presence.
Thanks for the hint. I make various helpful posts as well. So every so often I'll just behave a bit worse so things even off.
Allegedly, on or about 20 March 2013, Olav Vitters sent:
Thanks for the hint. I make various helpful posts as well. So every so often I'll just behave a bit worse so things even off.
I used to tag some emails with this signature, "I reserve the right to be as hypocritical as the next person." Quite apart from the intended joke, it was a dig at one the regulars who was bound to reply.
On Tue, Mar 19, 2013 at 10:27 PM, Reindl Harald h.reindl@thelounge.net wrote:
NEVER EVER will somebody store critical data in the cloud and if he does we will hear only a last *bang* from this guy after some bad news what went wrong
First, *Never* say never. Second, I'd suggest you open your eyes and look around you.
As much as I dislike the "cloud-movement", It's here, it's now, and huge companies throw billions at it. ... Now, you may think that this, like previous stupid ideas (can you say, Java computer?) will dissipate in a year or two - but given the huge number of people I know, that have *zero* information stored on their laptops, and use their ipad/andoird to access all the business information remotely, I beg to differ.
Sadly enough, most people use computers to consume and not produce, and out of those who do produce, a large majority only needs a browser.
- Gilboa
Am 21.03.2013 19:29, schrieb Gilboa Davara:
On Tue, Mar 19, 2013 at 10:27 PM, Reindl Harald h.reindl@thelounge.net wrote:
NEVER EVER will somebody store critical data in the cloud and if he does we will hear only a last *bang* from this guy after some bad news what went wrong
First, *Never* say never
in topics which are my daily business i know where i say never and where people which think different will regret it
Second, I'd suggest you open your eyes and look around you.
my eyes are wide open
Sadly enough, most people use computers to consume and not produce, and out of those who do produce, a large majority only needs a browser
and i use them to produce
and if there would be no system to produce they have nothing to consume - said that it is unlikely that linux becomes as operating system only to consume and from it's history especially a Redhat-driven distribution like Fedora at least not
so before someone demands Fedora become a consume-only OS for noobs he should switch to a consumer distribution
On Thu, Mar 21, 2013 at 8:29 PM, Gilboa Davara gilboad@gmail.com wrote:
On Tue, Mar 19, 2013 at 10:27 PM, Reindl Harald h.reindl@thelounge.net wrote:
NEVER EVER will somebody store critical data in the cloud and if he does we will hear only a last *bang* from this guy after some bad news what went wrong
First, *Never* say never. Second, I'd suggest you open your eyes and look around you.
As much as I dislike the "cloud-movement", It's here, it's now, and huge companies throw billions at it. ... Now, you may think that this, like previous stupid ideas (can you say, Java computer?) will dissipate in a year or two - but given the huge number of people I know, that have *zero* information stored on their laptops, and use their ipad/andoird to access all the business information remotely, I beg to differ.
Sadly enough, most people use computers to consume and not produce, and out of those who do produce, a large majority only needs a browser.
- Gilboa
I should add that you're making a distinction between a "cloud" and "private cloud" - which, given the context of the OP is completely irrelevant. A long as you can access and go-about-your-daily business using a browser (as opposed to using a locally installed software), a mobile device such as a tablet (with or w/o a keyboard) is more than enough.
BTW, I do agree that Fedora should *not* follow Ubuntu's footsteps and go smart-phone happy. Even though desktop computers (that already have been taken to the cleaners by laptops, which in-turn, are about to being take to the cleaners, by tablets, etc) are on verge of becoming a small minority, we're still talking about millions of computers; plus given Microsoft's and Ubuntu's move toward idiot-proof OS', Fedora actually has a chance to instead it's user base.
- Gilboa
Am 21.03.2013 20:23, schrieb Joe Zeff:
On 03/21/2013 11:29 AM, Gilboa Davara wrote:
Sadly enough, most people use computers to consume and not produce, and out of those who do produce, a large majority only needs a browser.
How do you produce with a browser?
oh naive people will think "with the CMS and it's WYSIWYG edtor"
but they refuse to understand that this all has to be deveoped and written from people which REALLY produce, and yes i am one of them since many years
On Thu, Mar 21, 2013 at 12:28 PM, Reindl Harald h.reindl@thelounge.netwrote:
Am 21.03.2013 20:23, schrieb Joe Zeff:
On 03/21/2013 11:29 AM, Gilboa Davara wrote:
Sadly enough, most people use computers to consume and not produce, and out of those who do produce, a large majority only needs a browser.
How do you produce with a browser?
oh naive people will think "with the CMS and it's WYSIWYG edtor"
but they refuse to understand that this all has to be deveoped and written from people which REALLY produce, and yes i am one of them since many years
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Question: Clouds are insecure, are they not? Any person with the intent, and a Linux computer, has the ability to sniff passwords and other "private" information, doesn't s/he? Isn't this what made us so good before Microsoft came into the picture. Are Clouds not a "cracker's" - as opposed to hackers who do not have criminal intent - haven?
On 03/21/2013 04:05 PM, Richard Vickery wrote:
Question: Clouds are insecure, are they not? Any person with the intent, and a Linux computer, has the ability to sniff passwords and other "private" information, doesn't s/he? Isn't this what made us so good before Microsoft came into the picture. Are Clouds not a "cracker's" - as opposed to hackers who do not have criminal intent - haven?
Well, the idea of SSL is that you can capture all the packets you want, but you won't be able to read the information in the packets without the key to decrypt it. Or lots of supercomputers and several centuries of free time.
On Thu, Mar 21, 2013 at 1:08 PM, Nathan McCrina nfm@sprawl2kxx.net wrote:
On 03/21/2013 04:05 PM, Richard Vickery wrote:
Question: Clouds are insecure, are they not? Any person with the intent, and a Linux computer, has the ability to sniff passwords and other "private" information, doesn't s/he? Isn't this what made us so good before Microsoft came into the picture. Are Clouds not a "cracker's" - as opposed to hackers who do not have criminal intent - haven?
Well, the idea of SSL is that you can capture all the packets you want, but you won't be able to read the information in the packets without the key to decrypt it. Or lots of supercomputers and several centuries of free time.
Oh, okay. And the key doesn't get transferred with the data? I'm curious because of safety issues I have with things like wireless banking, internet banking and the Android banking apps.
Am 21.03.2013 21:08, schrieb Nathan McCrina:
On 03/21/2013 04:05 PM, Richard Vickery wrote:
Question: Clouds are insecure, are they not? Any person with the intent, and a Linux computer, has the ability to sniff passwords and other "private" information, doesn't s/he? Isn't this what made us so good before Microsoft came into the picture. Are Clouds not a "cracker's" - as opposed to hackers who do not have criminal intent - haven?
Well, the idea of SSL is that you can capture all the packets you want, but you won't be able to read the information in the packets without the key to decrypt it. Or lots of supercomputers and several centuries of free time
and how does SSL help you in the case of intrusion at the cloud-provider? hint: it does NOT
SSL/TSL = TRANSPORT layer security
as long you are only store ENCRYPTED data in the could while only on your local machine is the private key you are safe
but this will not work with cloud based services because they can not do much with encrypted data and so if you are feel scure because SSL you are naive and the target of the cloud-hype
On 03/21/2013 04:26 PM, Reindl Harald wrote:
and how does SSL help you in the case of intrusion at the cloud-provider? hint: it does NOT
SSL/TSL = TRANSPORT layer security
as long you are only store ENCRYPTED data in the could while only on your local machine is the private key you are safe
but this will not work with cloud based services because they can not do much with encrypted data and so if you are feel scure because SSL you are naive and the target of the cloud-hype
Disclaimer: I am not much of a fan of "the cloud" or SaaS at all.
I assumed from the OP's use of "sniffing" that what he was thinking of specifically was a man-in-the-middle attack, the threat of which can be minimized with, as you say, TRANSPORT layer security. I was not addressing the security of the data once it's sitting on the server, which as you point out is another can of worms.
I'm curious though, do you not use ATMs or the debit card checkout at the grocery store? It seems like those would necessitate a public-facing server of some kind and thus fall under the umbrella (hehe) of "the cloud".
Am 21.03.2013 21:43, schrieb Nathan McCrina:
On 03/21/2013 04:26 PM, Reindl Harald wrote:
and how does SSL help you in the case of intrusion at the cloud-provider? hint: it does NOT
SSL/TSL = TRANSPORT layer security
as long you are only store ENCRYPTED data in the could while only on your local machine is the private key you are safe
but this will not work with cloud based services because they can not do much with encrypted data and so if you are feel scure because SSL you are naive and the target of the cloud-hype
Disclaimer: I am not much of a fan of "the cloud" or SaaS at all.
good
I assumed from the OP's use of "sniffing" that what he was thinking of specifically was a man-in-the-middle attack, the threat of which can be minimized with, as you say, TRANSPORT layer security. I was not addressing the security of the data once it's sitting on the server, which as you point out is another can of worms.
and this is the real problem: you lose the exclusive access to your data you have to believe they are secure, you have to believe they are backuped and if the hopefully existing backups are needed from your service provider you have to pray that their disaster-recovery plan is working in the real life and not only on the paper
if i have important and sensitve data they are not for the cloud if i have non-important data i delete them regulary instead waste space
I'm curious though, do you not use ATMs or the debit card checkout at the grocery store? It seems like those would necessitate a public-facing server of some kind and thus fall under the umbrella (hehe) of "the cloud".
no, i do not own a credit card at own because it is a U.S: syndrome to think someone can not live without and i know some online-clearing solutions for payment with them - some are HORRIBLE and that is why we are very careful which we implement for our customers
On 03/21/2013 04:51 PM, Reindl Harald wrote:
and this is the real problem: you lose the exclusive access to your data you have to believe they are secure, you have to believe they are backuped and if the hopefully existing backups are needed from your service provider you have to pray that their disaster-recovery plan is working in the real life and not only on the paper
if i have important and sensitve data they are not for the cloud if i have non-important data i delete them regulary instead waste space
no, i do not own a credit card at own because it is a U.S: syndrome to think someone can not live without and i know some online-clearing solutions for payment with them - some are HORRIBLE and that is why we are very careful which we implement for our customers
These are good points. The US is definitely built around credit/debit cards; I've tried going cash-only and you have to use a lot more effort to make it work compared to everybody else. :)
-----Original Message----- From: nfm@sprawl2kxx.net Sent: Thu, 21 Mar 2013 17:03:51 -0400 To: users@lists.fedoraproject.org Subject: Re: I want Fedora in my future, but is it possible?
On 03/21/2013 04:51 PM, Reindl Harald wrote:
and this is the real problem: you lose the exclusive access to your data you have to believe they are secure, you have to believe they are backuped and if the hopefully existing backups are needed from your service provider you have to pray that their disaster-recovery plan is working in the real life and not only on the paper
if i have important and sensitve data they are not for the cloud if i have non-important data i delete them regulary instead waste space
no, i do not own a credit card at own because it is a U.S: syndrome to think someone can not live without and i know some online-clearing solutions for payment with them - some are HORRIBLE and that is why we are very careful which we implement for our customers
These are good points. The US is definitely built around credit/debit cards; I've tried going cash-only and you have to use a lot more effort to make it work compared to everybody else. :)
--
I want to add that the above points plus others given are excellent. All these encryptions (128bit or whatever) do not protect you from fraud, i.e, identity theft and other hackers(crackers, ...?) from stealing your private information. The "Cloud" Type while it should matter, the forces like "The Sun" can go right through "that cloud" and there goes your stuff :(
Best Regards,
Antonio
P.S. I have no credit cards. Identity theft happens and well you can conclude why I agree with Reindl Harald here! He has given many more reasons "not to want to go fully to the mobile route" despite that the future pointing that way :( like recession, depression, other bad economic conditions :(
____________________________________________________________ FREE 3D EARTH SCREENSAVER - Watch the Earth right on your desktop! Check it out at http://www.inbox.com/earth
On Mar 22, 2013 4:56 AM, "Antonio Olivares" wingators@inbox.com wrote:
-----Original Message----- From: nfm@sprawl2kxx.net Sent: Thu, 21 Mar 2013 17:03:51 -0400 To: users@lists.fedoraproject.org Subject: Re: I want Fedora in my future, but is it possible?
On 03/21/2013 04:51 PM, Reindl Harald wrote:
and this is the real problem: you lose the exclusive access to your
data
you have to believe they are secure, you have to believe they are backuped and if the hopefully existing backups are needed from your service provider you have to pray that their disaster-recovery plan is working in the real life and not only on the paper
if i have important and sensitve data they are not for the cloud if i have non-important data i delete them regulary instead waste space
no, i do not own a credit card at own because it is a U.S: syndrome to think someone can not live without and i know some online-clearing solutions for payment with them - some are HORRIBLE and that is why we are very careful which we implement for our customers
These are good points. The US is definitely built around credit/debit cards; I've tried going cash-only and you have to use a lot more effort to make it work compared to everybody else. :)
--
I want to add that the above points plus others given are excellent. All
these encryptions (128bit or whatever) do not protect you from fraud, i.e, identity theft and other hackers(crackers, ...?) from stealing your private information. The "Cloud" Type while it should matter, the forces like "The Sun" can go right through "that cloud" and there goes your stuff :(
Best Regards,
Antonio
P.S. I have no credit cards. Identity theft happens and well you can conclude
why I agree with Reindl Harald here! He has given many more reasons "not to want to go fully to the mobile route" despite that the future pointing that way :( like recession, depression, other bad economic conditions
And yet the Canadian banks insure the activity *sigh*
On Thu, Mar 21, 2013 at 10:05 PM, Richard Vickery richard.vickeryrv@gmail.com wrote:
On Thu, Mar 21, 2013 at 12:28 PM, Reindl Harald h.reindl@thelounge.net wrote:
Am 21.03.2013 20:23, schrieb Joe Zeff:
Question: Clouds are insecure, are they not? Any person with the intent, and a Linux computer, has the ability to sniff passwords and other "private" information, doesn't s/he? Isn't this what made us so good before Microsoft came into the picture. Are Clouds not a "cracker's" - as opposed to hackers who do not have criminal intent - haven?
You cannot simply sniff SSL traffic and man in the middle attack on a large scale are *very* complex. The idea behind moving to a cloud provider (Again, I'm not in favor of moving world+dog to clouds) is many (if not more) of the companies simply lack the technical skills required to secure their sensitive information (very true), and that this jobs should be left to the experts at the cloud provider (which remains to be seen).
- Gilboa
Am 22.03.2013 10:30, schrieb Gilboa Davara:
You cannot simply sniff SSL traffic and man in the middle attack on a large scale are *very* complex. The idea behind moving to a cloud provider (Again, I'm not in favor of moving world+dog to clouds) is many (if not more) of the companies simply lack the technical skills required to secure their sensitive information (very true), and that this jobs should be left to the experts at the cloud provider (which remains to be seen)
and it is proven over years that all this "experts" are making HORRIBLE mistakes, no week where you will not find one of this "big experts" in a security newsticker
so, no, outsourcing is not a holy cow which makes all better the opposite is the truth
over the long it would be cheaper to invest in get the experts inhouse instead pay a rent for maybe-experts and leads to operational independence instead vendor-lockins and contracts you never get rid easily in the future if you find out it was a mistake or only get rid of it with burn down a lot of money which you liked to saved by starting the mistakes
On Fri, Mar 22, 2013 at 11:38 AM, Reindl Harald h.reindl@thelounge.net wrote:
Am 22.03.2013 10:30, schrieb Gilboa Davara:
You cannot simply sniff SSL traffic and man in the middle attack on a large scale are *very* complex. The idea behind moving to a cloud provider (Again, I'm not in favor of moving world+dog to clouds) is many (if not more) of the companies simply lack the technical skills required to secure their sensitive information (very true), and that this jobs should be left to the experts at the cloud provider (which remains to be seen)
and it is proven over years that all this "experts" are making HORRIBLE mistakes, no week where you will not find one of this "big experts" in a security newsticker
so, no, outsourcing is not a holy cow which makes all better the opposite is the truth
As I said, it remains to be seen. Than again, in the context of the OP, private clouds (which are being operated by the the company itself) behave just the same as external clouds.
over the long it would be cheaper to invest in get the experts inhouse instead pay a rent for maybe-experts and leads to operational independence instead vendor-lockins and contracts you never get rid easily in the future if you find out it was a mistake or only get rid of it with burn down a lot of money which you liked to saved by starting the mistakes
Unlike you, I'm not so certain. The amount of companies I worked with in the past decade (or more) that didn't maintain basic level of security is mind boggling.
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Am 22.03.2013 11:04, schrieb Gilboa Davara:
Than again, in the context of the OP, private clouds (which are being operated by the the company itself) behave just the same as external clouds
what is a private cloud? a buzzword for consultants!
our VMware ESXi cluster is a private cloud well, it would exist as it does without the buzzword at all well, it did not change anything for the clients / users
the "cloud" is more or less "you need not to know on which host a server is running because it is controlled by VMware HA/DRS" BUT i know exactly where the things are running at normal operations and i would be quite stupid to give up this control completly
On Fri, Mar 22, 2013 at 12:20 PM, Reindl Harald h.reindl@thelounge.net wrote:
Am 22.03.2013 11:04, schrieb Gilboa Davara:
Than again, in the context of the OP, private clouds (which are being operated by the the company itself) behave just the same as external clouds
what is a private cloud? a buzzword for consultants!
our VMware ESXi cluster is a private cloud well, it would exist as it does without the buzzword at all well, it did not change anything for the clients / users
the "cloud" is more or less "you need not to know on which host a server is running because it is controlled by VMware HA/DRS" BUT i know exactly where the things are running at normal operations and i would be quite stupid to give up this control completly
Most of the private cloud installations I've seen involved two steps. 1. Moving legacy client-server applications from physical installation to virtualized environment. 2. Slow replace the legacy applications (mostly platform dependent client-server software) with web-based software (which usually support mobile devices, hence the connection to the, umm, OP?).
Whether you call the above "the move to private clouds" "The move to Web 2.0 applications" or "the mad cat revolution" is completely irrelevant.
- Gilboa
On Thu, Mar 21, 2013 at 9:28 PM, Reindl Harald h.reindl@thelounge.net wrote:
How do you produce with a browser?
oh naive people will think "with the CMS and it's WYSIWYG edtor"
but they refuse to understand that this all has to be deveoped and written from people which REALLY produce, and yes i am one of them since many years
True. I won't be replacing vim with Firefox anytime soon. Nor will I replace c/c++ (and God forbids, asm) with js. But we're a *very* small minority that's about to go even smaller.
*However*, just as it was when people switched from big iron Unix servers and DOS client applications to Linux/Windows and (mostly-)Windows client applications - the world is now switching to web-based applications and there's not much you can do to stop it.
BTW, non of us have any idea what will be the effect on the Linux development eco-system due to the migration of OSS projects and developers (especially desktop oriented projects) to mobile platforms.
On Thu, Mar 21, 2013 at 9:23 PM, Joe Zeff joe@zeff.us wrote:
On 03/21/2013 11:29 AM, Gilboa Davara wrote:
Sadly enough, most people use computers to consume and not produce, and out of those who do produce, a large majority only needs a browser.
How do you produce with a browser?
Are you serious?
- Gilboa
On 03/22/2013 03:44 AM, Gilboa Davara wrote:
On Thu, Mar 21, 2013 at 9:23 PM, Joe Zeff joe@zeff.us wrote:
On 03/21/2013 11:29 AM, Gilboa Davara wrote:
Sadly enough, most people use computers to consume and not produce, and out of those who do produce, a large majority only needs a browser.
How do you produce with a browser?
Are you serious?
Yes. Do you expect authors, as an example, to do all their writing in a browser? Do you expect lawyers to compose their briefs and court documents in a browser? How about accountants? How about programmers, graphic artists and musicians? The question isn't am I serious, but have you really given any thought to your position?
On 03/22/2013 02:12 PM, Joe Zeff wrote:
On 03/22/2013 03:44 AM, Gilboa Davara wrote:
On Thu, Mar 21, 2013 at 9:23 PM, Joe Zeff joe@zeff.us wrote:
On 03/21/2013 11:29 AM, Gilboa Davara wrote:
Sadly enough, most people use computers to consume and not produce, and out of those who do produce, a large majority only needs a browser.
How do you produce with a browser?
Are you serious?
Yes. Do you expect authors, as an example, to do all their writing in a browser? Do you expect lawyers to compose their briefs and court documents in a browser? How about accountants? How about programmers, graphic artists and musicians? The question isn't am I serious, but have you really given any thought to your position?
Years ago, when I took a Microsoft Certified Systems Engineering course, our instructor talked hopefully, even dreamily, of a future in which all applications, including word processors, would be back-end applications. He even named Microsoft's project along this line: Microsoft Back-office. As he told it, the back-end application would do all the heavy lifting. It would create the file, save it to a directory with your username and password, send you a printer-friendly page when needed, and everything.
Intuit, Inc. migrated its TurboTax line of individual income-tax preparation software from front-end to back-end. Nobody, and I mean nobody, installs TurboTax on his machine anymore. He uses his browser to sign in to TurboTax on-line and completes his taxes there. They handle e-filing, and send printer-friendly pages and even PDF downloads on command. I expect Intuit to do the same with TurboTax Business in a year or so.
That is the vision, as I said.
Of course, I also listed the considerations. Back then, I said, "Are you kidding? Do you really expect me to wait five seconds for every keystroke to echo back to me in a word-processing document?" He said, "FYI, connection speeds are increasing by leaps and bounds. By the time MS BackOffice is ready to roll, you'll be able to connect so fast you won't even notice it."
Today the consideration is security. But the answer I'm getting is: "Fine. If security is that important to you, then it will necessarily follow that you will be an employee of an enterprise that can build its own Cloud and host its own back-end apps."
And what, I ask, about the individual author who is afraid that the government will have access to his work, work that he does not want known?
"Well, now, if you're planning to take up arms against the government, I'm going to have to call the FBI, am I not?" Or Scotland Yard, or La Sureté nationale, or Der Bundeskriminalamt, or Interpol, etc.
There you have it. The pro and the con, including all the issues.
Temlakos
...and I think the term "most people" refers to the vast majority who are not lawyers nor accountants. These professionals might need their stuff saved on their own machines, or external drives. Of course, does a private cloud need to be on the internet?
On Fri, Mar 22, 2013 at 11:53 AM, Temlakos temlakos@gmail.com wrote:
On 03/22/2013 02:12 PM, Joe Zeff wrote:
On 03/22/2013 03:44 AM, Gilboa Davara wrote:
On Thu, Mar 21, 2013 at 9:23 PM, Joe Zeff joe@zeff.us wrote:
On 03/21/2013 11:29 AM, Gilboa Davara wrote:
Sadly enough, most people use computers to consume and not produce, and out of those who do produce, a large majority only needs a browser.
How do you produce with a browser?
Are you serious?
Yes. Do you expect authors, as an example, to do all their writing in a browser? Do you expect lawyers to compose their briefs and court documents in a browser? How about accountants? How about programmers, graphic artists and musicians? The question isn't am I serious, but have you really given any thought to your position?
Years ago, when I took a Microsoft Certified Systems Engineering course, our instructor talked hopefully, even dreamily, of a future in which all applications, including word processors, would be back-end applications. He even named Microsoft's project along this line: Microsoft Back-office. As he told it, the back-end application would do all the heavy lifting. It would create the file, save it to a directory with your username and password, send you a printer-friendly page when needed, and everything.
Intuit, Inc. migrated its TurboTax line of individual income-tax preparation software from front-end to back-end. Nobody, and I mean nobody, installs TurboTax on his machine anymore. He uses his browser to sign in to TurboTax on-line and completes his taxes there. They handle e-filing, and send printer-friendly pages and even PDF downloads on command. I expect Intuit to do the same with TurboTax Business in a year or so.
That is the vision, as I said.
Of course, I also listed the considerations. Back then, I said, "Are you kidding? Do you really expect me to wait five seconds for every keystroke to echo back to me in a word-processing document?" He said, "FYI, connection speeds are increasing by leaps and bounds. By the time MS BackOffice is ready to roll, you'll be able to connect so fast you won't even notice it."
Today the consideration is security. But the answer I'm getting is: "Fine. If security is that important to you, then it will necessarily follow that you will be an employee of an enterprise that can build its own Cloud and host its own back-end apps."
And what, I ask, about the individual author who is afraid that the government will have access to his work, work that he does not want known?
"Well, now, if you're planning to take up arms against the government, I'm going to have to call the FBI, am I not?" Or Scotland Yard, or La Sureté nationale, or Der Bundeskriminalamt, or Interpol, etc.
There you have it. The pro and the con, including all the issues.
Temlakos
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On 03/22/2013 03:07 PM, Richard Vickery wrote:
...and I think the term "most people" refers to the vast majority who are not lawyers nor accountants. These professionals might need their stuff saved on their own machines, or external drives. Of course, does a private cloud need to be on the internet?
The "private Cloud" /could/ be the equivalent of one-day rented offices. We have a number of firms in the United States, who rent out professional-looking offices and conference rooms to small businesses who are basically running out of the owner's residence but want to meet clients in a setting that makes the client a little more comfortable. You can even hire someone, for 1 USD/day, to answer your telephone and pretend to be your dedicated secretary/receptionist. A shared or semi-dedicated private cloud would be an extension of this concept. Web hosting services already follow this model: shared server, semi-dedicated server, virtual private server, or fully dedicated server. You can envision private Cloud services offering similar tiers of service.
I imagine that the subscription fees would be stiff, though the traffic would probably not bear any more than the equivalent of buying a new minitower and laptop every three years.
This "private cloud" would be on the Internet, but use the technique known as Virtual Private Networking. In short, several levels of security that the public Internet normally does not see.
Still, someone could still crack into such a cluster, and I know some people who will never trust a Cloud, public /or/ private, with their "stuff." This "stuff" would be of a frankly subversive nature--or so some government officials might regard it.
Temlakos
Am 22.03.2013 20:16, schrieb Temlakos:
Still, someone could still crack into such a cluster, and I know some people who will never trust a Cloud, public /or/ private, with their "stuff." This "stuff" would be of a frankly subversive nature
bullshit
my customers data and privacy is not subversive and if you think your customers data are not subversive enough to protect them come and say for what company you are working to give everybody here the chance to switch to someone who feels repsonsible for what he is doing with OTHERS PEOPLE data
On 03/22/2013 03:33 PM, Reindl Harald wrote:
Am 22.03.2013 20:16, schrieb Temlakos:
Still, someone could still crack into such a cluster, and I know some people who will never trust a Cloud, public /or/ private, with their "stuff." This "stuff" would be of a frankly subversive nature
bullshit
my customers data and privacy is not subversive and if you think your customers data are not subversive enough to protect them come and say for what company you are working to give everybody here the chance to switch to someone who feels repsonsible for what he is doing with OTHERS PEOPLE data
I never said that you or anyone else held "subversive" content on your machine, nor /even/ that "subversive" content would be an inherently evil thing. I have lately come to the conclusion that a little "subversive" capability is necessary to securing one's freedom. (Which means that I would /not/ lay information with the BKA or Interpol even if I knew the first thing about your business. Which I haven't asked.)
Those people I know, are not members of this list (at least, I don't think they are). They are, however, members of other lists I am on. If anyone tells them that The Cloud is coming to gobble up their data and add it to its own massive data store, with no protection other than a username and password, they'll no doubt find something in the charter documents of the United Nations Division of Sustainable Development ("Agenda Twenty-one") to offer as evidence why they would never dare surrender their data to such an institution.
In sum: I simply wished to point out that certain persons might have reasons, even more compelling than the simple business reason of preventing accidental loss of data, to guard jealously the concept of storing one's own content on one's own machine. Those who might feel that their governments would accuse them of subversion, would have the extra security concern of /unauthorized access to data/. Or in this case, /government seizure of data.
/Temlakos
On 03/22/2013 12:07 PM, Richard Vickery wrote:
...and I think the term "most people" refers to the vast majority who are not lawyers nor accountants. These professionals might need their stuff saved on their own machines, or external drives. Of course, does a private cloud need to be on the internet?
I know a number of authors, and occasionally house sit for one of them. (If you'd like the names, ask off-list because I'd rather not indulge in gratuitous name-dropping.) Do you really think that any of them would want their current work kept on (and only on) the cloud? I'm fairly sure that some of you out there do programming as a consultant; do you keep your projects on the cloud, or on media that you personally control, and why?
On 03/22/2013 11:53 AM, Temlakos wrote:
Years ago, when I took a Microsoft Certified Systems Engineering course, our instructor talked hopefully, even dreamily, of a future in which all applications, including word processors, would be back-end applications. He even named Microsoft's project along this line: Microsoft Back-office. As he told it, the back-end application would do all the heavy lifting. It would create the file, save it to a directory with your username and password, send you a printer-friendly page when needed, and everything.
And, of course, it comes with the ultimate vendor lock-in: no way to pirate software when it's never on your machine in the first place.
Am 22.03.2013 20:31, schrieb Joe Zeff:
On 03/22/2013 11:53 AM, Temlakos wrote:
Years ago, when I took a Microsoft Certified Systems Engineering course, our instructor talked hopefully, even dreamily, of a future in which all applications, including word processors, would be back-end applications. He even named Microsoft's project along this line: Microsoft Back-office. As he told it, the back-end application would do all the heavy lifting. It would create the file, save it to a directory with your username and password, send you a printer-friendly page when needed, and everything.
And, of course, it comes with the ultimate vendor lock-in: no way to pirate software when it's never on your machine in the first place
and smart people do not want to support vendor-lockins with linux clients, but smart people are rare i feel
On 03/22/2013 12:34 PM, Reindl Harald wrote:
and smart people do not want to support vendor-lockins with linux clients, but smart people are rare i feel
There's a bit of self selection going on here. For the most part[1], people who use Linux are smart enough to have taken the time to inform themselves of the issues and understand why keeping control of their own data is safer.
[1]The exception, of course, is those elderly people who run Ubuntu[2] because a smart relative set them up that way and probably don't know how to reboot on their own because they never need to. [2]By far the simplest distro for the non-techie to use, and the one I'd personally recommend, although I'd probably set them up with something other than Unity, especially if they have coordination problems.
On Friday, March 22, 2013 2:53:29 PM Temlakos wrote:
Intuit, Inc. migrated its TurboTax line of individual income-tax preparation software from front-end to back-end. Nobody, and I mean nobody, installs TurboTax on his machine anymore. He uses his browser to sign in to TurboTax on-line and completes his taxes there. They handle e-filing, and send printer-friendly pages and even PDF downloads on command. I expect Intuit to do the same with TurboTax Business in a year or so.
Its nice to know I'm a nobody.
On 03/22/2013 03:48 PM, Lester M. Petrie Jr. wrote:
On Friday, March 22, 2013 2:53:29 PM Temlakos wrote:
Intuit, Inc. migrated its TurboTax line of individual income-tax
preparation software from front-end to back-end. Nobody, and I mean
nobody, installs TurboTax on his machine anymore. He uses his
browser to
sign in to TurboTax on-line and completes his taxes there. They handle
e-filing, and send printer-friendly pages and even PDF downloads on
command. I expect Intuit to do the same with TurboTax Business in a
year
or so.
Its nice to know I'm a nobody.
--
Lester M Petrie
865-574-5259
petrielmjr@ornl.gov
Whuh? Where do you get the optical-disk media to install TurboTax for /Individuals/ on your machine? I haven't found that available for years. It's all on-line, all the way up to TurboTax Premier.
Now TurboTax for /Business/ is another matter altogether. There is no TurboTax for Business Online. Not that I've so far seen.
Temlakos
On 3/22/2013 12:58 PM, Temlakos wrote:
On 03/22/2013 03:48 PM, Lester M. Petrie Jr. wrote:
On Friday, March 22, 2013 2:53:29 PM Temlakos wrote:
Intuit, Inc. migrated its TurboTax line of individual income-tax
preparation software from front-end to back-end. Nobody, and I mean
nobody, installs TurboTax on his machine anymore. He uses his
browser to
sign in to TurboTax on-line and completes his taxes there. They handle
e-filing, and send printer-friendly pages and even PDF downloads on
command. I expect Intuit to do the same with TurboTax Business in a
year
or so.
Its nice to know I'm a nobody.
--
Lester M Petrie
865-574-5259
petrielmjr@ornl.gov
Whuh? Where do you get the optical-disk media to install TurboTax for /Individuals/ on your machine? I haven't found that available for years. It's all on-line, all the way up to TurboTax Premier.
Now TurboTax for /Business/ is another matter altogether. There is no TurboTax for Business Online. Not that I've so far seen.
Temlakos
Every year I get a disk from Turbo Tax for my individual taxes. If I delay in asking them for it until December, they send me one anyways. Turbo Tax has not given up on that mode of delivery as there are people who prefer local installation.
Paul
On Friday, March 22, 2013 3:58:39 PM Temlakos wrote:
On 03/22/2013 03:48 PM, Lester M. Petrie Jr. wrote:
On Friday, March 22, 2013 2:53:29 PM Temlakos wrote:
Intuit, Inc. migrated its TurboTax line of individual income-tax
preparation software from front-end to back-end. Nobody, and I mean
nobody, installs TurboTax on his machine anymore. He uses his
browser to
sign in to TurboTax on-line and completes his taxes there. They handle
e-filing, and send printer-friendly pages and even PDF downloads on
command. I expect Intuit to do the same with TurboTax Business in a
year
or so.
Its nice to know I'm a nobody.
Lester M Petrie
865-574-5259
petrielmjr@ornl.gov
Whuh? Where do you get the optical-disk media to install TurboTax for /Individuals/ on your machine? I haven't found that available for years. It's all on-line, all the way up to TurboTax Premier.
Now TurboTax for /Business/ is another matter altogether. There is no TurboTax for Business Online. Not that I've so far seen.
Temlakos
Go to almost any office supply store.
On 3/22/2013 17:03, poma wrote:
On 22.03.2013 20:58, Temlakos wrote: ...
Whuh? Where do you get the optical-disk media to install...
Dude, you use this group to advertise.
poma
Huh, what?
On 03/22/2013 07:53 PM, Temlakos wrote:
On 03/22/2013 02:12 PM, Joe Zeff wrote:
On 03/22/2013 03:44 AM, Gilboa Davara wrote:
On Thu, Mar 21, 2013 at 9:23 PM, Joe Zeff joe@zeff.us wrote:
On 03/21/2013 11:29 AM, Gilboa Davara wrote:
Sadly enough, most people use computers to consume and not produce, and out of those who do produce, a large majority only needs a browser.
How do you produce with a browser?
Are you serious?
Yes. Do you expect authors, as an example, to do all their writing in a browser? Do you expect lawyers to compose their briefs and court documents in a browser? How about accountants? How about programmers, graphic artists and musicians? The question isn't am I serious, but have you really given any thought to your position?
Intuit, Inc. migrated its TurboTax line of individual income-tax preparation software from front-end to back-end. Nobody, and I mean nobody, installs TurboTax on his machine anymore.
Nice to know of a product to further on "not to buy".
As simple as it is: I do not want anybody to have access or the option to have access to my tax data, except me, my tax accountant and the tax authorities.
Today the consideration is security.
... and data privacy.
Ralf
On Fri, Mar 22, 2013 at 8:12 PM, Joe Zeff joe@zeff.us wrote:
On 03/22/2013 03:44 AM, Gilboa Davara wrote:
On Thu, Mar 21, 2013 at 9:23 PM, Joe Zeff joe@zeff.us wrote:
On 03/21/2013 11:29 AM, Gilboa Davara wrote:
Sadly enough, most people use computers to consume and not produce, and out of those who do produce, a large majority only needs a browser.
How do you produce with a browser?
Are you serious?
Yes. Do you expect authors, as an example, to do all their writing in a browser? Do you expect lawyers to compose their briefs and court documents in a browser? How about accountants? How about programmers, graphic artists and musicians? The question isn't am I serious, but have you really given any thought to your position?
Two things: A. At least in my experience, the software our lawyers, accountants and insurance people is mostly web-based with locally installed Microsoft Word or Excel (Both are slowly gaining a credible web-based alternative such as Office 365, Google Docs, etc). B. As I said before, I doubt that I'll be replacing vi with firefox and c/c++ with JS. I assume the same will be true for programmers, musicians, graphics artist and other "heavy" users. However, please keep in mind that we are a minority. Most people (both at home and at work) only use the computer to exchange text information (E.g. mails, documents, accounting information, fill forms, etc) and light multimedia files - in which case, the move toward web-based-only software is -well- under way. C. You seem to misunderstand "my position". I'm far from being in love with the idea of cloud computing, and you'll have prey the desktop computer out of my cold dead hands. *However*, whether I, as an individual likes this "advancement" is beside the point. The movement toward web-based computing is here, and there's nothing any of us can do to stop it. D. Take a second to consider the web-mail vs. locally installed client split 10 years ago and today. 10 years ago, a vast majority of the mail traffic was POP3 and IMAP, today the tides have turned, and the most of the mail traffic is either business (Exchange, which again, is slowly being phased out in-favor of outlook.com) or web-based.
- Gilboa
On 03/22/2013 11:13 PM, Gilboa Davara wrote:
Most people (both at home and at work) only use the computer to exchange text information (E.g. mails, documents, accounting information, fill forms, etc) and light multimedia files - in which case, the move toward web-based-only software is -well- under way.
Which is to say, using content, not producing it.
On Sat, Mar 23, 2013 at 9:17 AM, Joe Zeff joe@zeff.us wrote:
On 03/22/2013 11:13 PM, Gilboa Davara wrote:
Most people (both at home and at work) only use the computer to exchange text information (E.g. mails, documents, accounting information, fill forms, etc) and light multimedia files - in which case, the move toward web-based-only software is -well- under way.
Which is to say, using content, not producing it.
Lets review what I originally said:
"Sadly enough, most people use computers to consume and not produce, and out of those who do produce, a large majority only needs a browser."
... and then:
"Most people (both at home and at work) only use the computer to exchange text information (E.g. mails, documents, accounting information, fill forms, etc) and light multimedia files - in which case, the move toward web-based-only-software is -well- under way."
Now, in my view, produce *isn't* limited to content production (as in multimedia, code), but also includes text based production (which includes lawyers, accountants, insurance, etc) that are already being moved to web-base software.
Now, we can spend the next 500 messages arguing if an accountant is considered "production" or "consumption" (in which case, Good luck and God speed), or we can return the original context of this thread: Where does the computing world move and how does Fedora fit in? (1. Web-based-software and mobile platforms; 2. [In my view:] Catering for the needs for the remaining desktop users).
- Gilboa
Am 23.03.2013 07:13, schrieb Gilboa Davara:
D. Take a second to consider the web-mail vs. locally installed client split 10 years ago and today. 10 years ago, a vast majority of the mail traffic was POP3 and IMAP, today the tides have turned, and the most of the mail traffic is either business (Exchange, which again, is slowly being phased out in-favor of outlook.com) or web-based
no, the homeusers which does not archive their mails over years and are too stupid to type "[enter mailprogram} add new account" in the google searchbox and refuse to understand why incoming and outgoing mail is not the same are using only webmail
the rest of the world is using in additionally for what it was made: a temporary solution and you can be pretty sure that the business users are the majority if you not only count blindly and instead take the amout of invested money in your bill
the noobs are not the people who brought linux to where it s now and so it should not go in a direction what they believe is nice
On Sat, Mar 23, 2013 at 12:04 PM, Reindl Harald h.reindl@thelounge.net wrote:
Am 23.03.2013 07:13, schrieb Gilboa Davara:
D. Take a second to consider the web-mail vs. locally installed client split 10 years ago and today. 10 years ago, a vast majority of the mail traffic was POP3 and IMAP, today the tides have turned, and the most of the mail traffic is either business (Exchange, which again, is slowly being phased out in-favor of outlook.com) or web-based
no, the homeusers which does not archive their mails over years and are too stupid to type "[enter mailprogram} add new account" in the google searchbox and refuse to understand why incoming and outgoing mail is not the same are using only webmail
the rest of the world is using in additionally for what it was made: a temporary solution and you can be pretty sure that the business users are the majority if you not only count blindly and instead take the amout of invested money in your bill
I'm not sure how your comment relates to my previous post - or why should it matter. In the end, the tides have turned, whether or not its a good, secure, or even cost effective thing is completely irrelevant.
the noobs are not the people who brought linux to where it s now and so it should not go in a direction what they believe is nice
Let me repeat myself, in-case you missed the 300 previous iterations: In my view, the Fedora desktop should ignore the movement toward Web-based cloud computing (Good or bad), and cater instead of the millions that do require a full blown workstation.
- Gilboa
Joe Zeff (How do you produce with a browser?):
Do you expect authors, as an example, to do all their writing in a browser? Do you expect lawyers to compose their briefs and court documents in a browser? How about accountants? How about programmers, graphic artists and musicians? The question isn't am I serious, but have you really given any thought to your position?
In essence, the same way as companies used to use a main frame (and those who still do must be laughing their asses off at all the problems companies face who use scads of individual Windows PCs).
However, the average ISP service is too slow for using a cloud as a straightforward replacement for a mainframe. Even if your ISP was your cloud service provider, the lag may be too much. You'd need a half and half solution, where the main application is on the cloud, and your client has an more complicated interface than just remote display and input.
On 03/23/2013 02:42 AM, Tim wrote:
Joe Zeff (How do you produce with a browser?):
Do you expect authors, as an example, to do all their writing in a browser? Do you expect lawyers to compose their briefs and court documents in a browser? How about accountants? How about programmers, graphic artists and musicians? The question isn't am I serious, but have you really given any thought to your position?
In essence, the same way as companies used to use a main frame (and those who still do must be laughing their asses off at all the problems companies face who use scads of individual Windows PCs).
However, the average ISP service is too slow for using a cloud as a straightforward replacement for a mainframe. Even if your ISP was your cloud service provider, the lag may be too much. You'd need a half and half solution, where the main application is on the cloud, and your client has an more complicated interface than just remote display and input.
That last is true today. Will it remain true? Are you sure, in other words, that we have reached the limit of throughput speed, and lag will always be the deal-killer?
Temlakos
On Sat, Mar 23, 2013 at 4:22 PM, Temlakos temlakos@gmail.com wrote:
On 03/23/2013 02:42 AM, Tim wrote:
Joe Zeff (How do you produce with a browser?):
Do you expect authors, as an example, to do all their writing in a browser? Do you expect lawyers to compose their briefs and court documents in a browser? How about accountants? How about programmers, graphic artists and musicians? The question isn't am I serious, but have you really given any thought to your position?
In essence, the same way as companies used to use a main frame (and those who still do must be laughing their asses off at all the problems companies face who use scads of individual Windows PCs).
However, the average ISP service is too slow for using a cloud as a straightforward replacement for a mainframe. Even if your ISP was your cloud service provider, the lag may be too much. You'd need a half and half solution, where the main application is on the cloud, and your client has an more complicated interface than just remote display and input.
That last is true today. Will it remain true? Are you sure, in other words, that we have reached the limit of throughput speed, and lag will always be the deal-killer?
Temlakos
Two things: 1. "Fiber to the home" is really fast. E.g. I've got 100Mbps to my ISP; more than enough to power web-based applications. In many ways, GMail on my Android is far faster than GNOME Evolution has ever been - even though Evolution ran on far more capable hardware. (E.g. search on a 4GB mailbox). 2. The huge investment on javaqscript compilers makes optimized client-side-computing an interesting alternative. Instead of letting the server-side crunch all the information into static HTMLs and images, send the raw information to the client, and let the heavily optimized JS do the heavy lifting instead.
I suggest you take a look at how Google, Facebook and Twitter optimize their user experience.
- Gilboa
Allegedly, on or about 19 March 2013, Temlakos sent:
Did you know that a consensus is rapidly developing that the present environment, with desktops (or mini-towers) and laptops dominating, will give place totally to The Cloud, where all data will reside, and you will access it using a smartphone with the occasional auxiliary keyboard and screen? And print to the nearest wireless print server? What advice will you have for the worker in a multinational or Fortune 100 enterprise that decides to build a private Cloud and expects its workers to maintain all data on The Cloud and work with it using smartphones and tablets, to the exclusion of mini-towers and laptops?
I'm inclined to think that once you're locked into that scenario, you're also going to be locked into proprietary software. Just about the whole basis of cloud computing is *making* *you* *pay* for every damn thing that you do (access, store, use, etc.).
It's taking vendor lock-in to the max.
Am 19.03.2013 21:34, schrieb Tim:
Allegedly, on or about 19 March 2013, Temlakos sent:
Did you know that a consensus is rapidly developing that the present environment, with desktops (or mini-towers) and laptops dominating, will give place totally to The Cloud, where all data will reside, and you will access it using a smartphone with the occasional auxiliary keyboard and screen? And print to the nearest wireless print server? What advice will you have for the worker in a multinational or Fortune 100 enterprise that decides to build a private Cloud and expects its workers to maintain all data on The Cloud and work with it using smartphones and tablets, to the exclusion of mini-towers and laptops?
I'm inclined to think that once you're locked into that scenario, you're also going to be locked into proprietary software. Just about the whole basis of cloud computing is *making* *you* *pay* for every damn thing that you do (access, store, use, etc.).
It's taking vendor lock-in to the max
and nobody needs Fedora to support this broken idea
what the hell does someone expect from "Fedora on the mobile?" the same desktop as on a 24" screen? how should this work?
a completly different desktop for the mobile? well, why do i noeed Fedora then on it and not whatever?
the DE of the desktop crippled down to a mobile ones? well, that has happened with GNOME3/Unity/Windows8
leave us with KDE or whatever desktop making WORK with their computers fuck in peace with all of this and use whatever suits the gaming front
19.03.2013 20:52, Temlakos:
Did you know that a consensus is rapidly developing that the present environment, with desktops (or mini-towers) and laptops dominating, will give place totally to The Cloud, where all data will reside, and you will access it using a smartphone with the occasional auxiliary keyboard and screen? And print to the nearest wireless print server? What advice will you have for the worker in a multinational or Fortune 100 enterprise that decides to build a private Cloud and expects its workers to maintain all data on The Cloud and work with it using smartphones and tablets, to the exclusion of mini-towers and laptops?
By now you are wondering, I'm sure, /Was is los/? Here is an article by Jason Perlow at ZDNet, outlining the new Cloud-ed future:
http://www.zdnet.com/cloud-haters-you-too-will-be-assimilated-7000012059/
Yeah!
http://dilbert.com/strips/comic/2011-01-07/
On 03/19/2013 12:07 PM, Reindl Harald wrote:
this direction is completly wrong a smartphone is not the same as a desktop-computer
I disagree. A smartphone IS a computer. It uses a CPU, RAM, and persistent storage. I actually really liked the concept of the Atrix, though not its execution. I expect that we'll see more phones and tables docking with workstation peripherals (monitor, mouse, keyboard) in the future. I don't think there are any active Fedora projects to support those, but Red Hat has never focused much attention on desktop/workstation support. Right now, there's very little hardware that supports it, so not much reason to do so. I hope that changes.
Am 19.03.2013 23:01, schrieb Gordon Messmer:
On 03/19/2013 12:07 PM, Reindl Harald wrote:
this direction is completly wrong a smartphone is not the same as a desktop-computer
I disagree. A smartphone IS a computer
well, you should read more careful i said DESKTP-COMPUTER aka WORKSTATION
Hi!
2013/3/19 Peter Gueckel pgueckel@gmail.com:
I have been looking at smartphones and tablets (I presently own neither, due to outrageous monthly fees and lengthy contracts), as I am starting to feel that I no longer want to do without mobility.
However, how does Fedora fit into this? Is there a way to put Fedora onto a tablet or smartphone?
AFAIK, not at the moment.
Ubuntu offers an intriguing compromise, for users of an Android phone. Hook up a keyboard and monitor and run Ubuntu, so you don't exactly have your full system in your hand, but you _do_ have it in your pocket. Pretty cool, but it's not KDE-Fedora!
How do you go about it?
Well, that's the direction that Ubuntu is taking. I am not sure if enough developers will embrace it so enough good quality mobile applications are available compared to other platforms.
The way I see it Fedora is pushing to be the best desktop environment. If this same desktop experience can be ported to a tablet or a mobile is something that we have yet to see. Just because you can do it it doesn't mean it is a good idea.
Greetings,
Peter Gueckel wrote:
I have been looking at smartphones and tablets...
How does Fedora fit into this? Is there a way to put Fedora onto a tablet or smartphone?
Ubuntu offers an intriguing compromise, for users of an Android phone.
How do you go about it?
Good grief! I had no idea that this would result in such a heated exchange :-)
As some have pointed out, the smartphone is a computer. Also, many users are giving up their desktop and laptop computers for smartphones and, sometimes, an additional tablet.
Given this development, does Fedora have anything to offer them?
So far in the discussion, the answer appears to be that it doesn't.
Given this development, who will be using Fedora, if it cannot be used on the devices people nowadays are purchasing and using?
Am 20.03.2013 00:26, schrieb Peter Gueckel:
Given this development, does Fedora have anything to offer them?
So far in the discussion, the answer appears to be that it doesn't.
Given this development, who will be using Fedora, if it cannot be used on the devices people nowadays are purchasing and using?
all the users whch are working seriously on their computers and not own them as a toy - and hopefully if all the toy-users switch to smartphones we can stop the wrong direction try to make linux idiot-proff for every-price
do you really think this user-base has brought linux to where it is now? not a piece of it!
On 03/19/2013 07:26 PM, Peter Gueckel wrote:
Peter Gueckel wrote:
I have been looking at smartphones and tablets...
How does Fedora fit into this? Is there a way to put Fedora onto a tablet or smartphone?
Ubuntu offers an intriguing compromise, for users of an Android phone.
How do you go about it?
Good grief! I had no idea that this would result in such a heated exchange :-)
As some have pointed out, the smartphone is a computer. Also, many users are giving up their desktop and laptop computers for smartphones and, sometimes, an additional tablet.
Given this development, does Fedora have anything to offer them?
So far in the discussion, the answer appears to be that it doesn't.
Given this development, who will be using Fedora, if it cannot be used on the devices people nowadays are purchasing and using?
Good question. I think much depends on whether Android will live up to its promise of being a genuine open-source OS, and Google, Inc. will not try to hijack it in some way. I've already heard from an aggrieved user who laments ever installing Google Chrome on his computer. (He runs Windows.) He says the instance of Google Chrome abruptly destroyed his installation of Mozilla Firefox. When he then tried to reinstall it, Google Chrome said he was about to install an application infected with a dangerous virus. Now I've heard of deliberate FUD-mongering, but this is the limit.
And the relevancy? Google wrote Android.
Don't ask me about Windows for Smartphones, or iOS (for the iPhone and iPad). You probably would advise parental judgment for anyone looking to read my answer.
Here's another possibility: maybe the place of Fedora, in this future world of Cloud-centric computing, Desktop as a Service, back-end word-processing, back-end data storage, and the like, is that Fedora will run the servers on private clouds. Anyone from a multinational enterprise to a non-profit charity or even a political activist group will try to build their own Cloud, to offer the convenience of mobile computing with the security of traditional private desktops.
Temlakos
Temlakos wrote:
Here's another possibility: maybe... Fedora will run the servers on private clouds...
Your prediction would exclude the average computer user. That's a shame.
I have been with Fedora since about 1998 (RH5). I don't care to switch, just to become digitally mobile. In all likelihood, given this bleak scenario, I would probably end up with an Android device and end up reluctantly moving to (K)Ubuntu.
In the meantime, I still have my (Fedora) desktop computer.
Am 20.03.2013 01:17, schrieb Peter Gueckel:
Temlakos wrote:
Here's another possibility: maybe... Fedora will run the servers on private clouds...
Your prediction would exclude the average computer user. That's a shame.
no, it would not nobody prevents you from install GNOME / KDE or whatelse
it would be a shame if Fedora would be degraded to satisfy the shiny new wolrd of crappy devices and exclude private clouds and servers for serious usage over the long
On 03/20/13 08:17, Peter Gueckel wrote:
I have been with Fedora since about 1998 (RH5). I don't care to switch, just to become digitally mobile. In all likelihood, given this bleak scenario, I would probably end up with an Android device and end up reluctantly moving to (K)Ubuntu.
I have to ask....
What is the advantage of running (K)Ubuntu or any other Linux distro on a smartphone or tablet?
I haven't given any thought to this since I don't know if devices running an O/S other than Android O/S would have access to the Google Play or Amazon Apps store. If they lose that source or even if they don't but suffer from stability issues then what good is it?
Do people wanting to do this simply want to do it in an attempt to maintain interface consistency? But, IMO, the form factor alone would impact that even if the underlying O/S is the same.
Ed Greshko wrote:
What is the advantage of running (K)Ubuntu or any other Linux distro on a smartphone or tablet?
I really couldn't say. I don't yet own any such mobile computing device, but I was perusing some flyers yesterday and was getting rather interested.
I thought, what if I were to buy a smartphone (and/or a tablet)? Smartphones are pretty powerful these days, with multi-core processors and the ability to power large LED displays, etc., so I wouldn't need my desktop and laptop computers anymore.
So, I thought, before I really start to get interested in replacing my current (static) hardware with contemporary (mobile) hardware, I had better find out how to get Fedora onto it.
To my great surprise, it appears that moving my hardware into the contemporary mobile age means de facto abandoning Fedora.
I thought that KDE Plasma was an attempt at getting KDE onto mobile devices. You have to have Fedora (or some other distro) on the device to get KDE onto it, don't you?
Do people wanting to do this simply want to do it in an attempt
to...?
For me, wanting to do this is an attempt to move into the mobile computing age, discard my old and redundant equipment (desktop/laptop)... and still have Fedora!
On 03/20/13 09:15, Peter Gueckel wrote:
Ed Greshko wrote:
What is the advantage of running (K)Ubuntu or any other Linux distro on a smartphone or tablet?
I really couldn't say. I don't yet own any such mobile computing device, but I was perusing some flyers yesterday and was getting rather interested.
I thought, what if I were to buy a smartphone (and/or a tablet)? Smartphones are pretty powerful these days, with multi-core processors and the ability to power large LED displays, etc., so I wouldn't need my desktop and laptop computers anymore.
So, I thought, before I really start to get interested in replacing my current (static) hardware with contemporary (mobile) hardware, I had better find out how to get Fedora onto it.
To my great surprise, it appears that moving my hardware into the contemporary mobile age means de facto abandoning Fedora.
I thought that KDE Plasma was an attempt at getting KDE onto mobile devices. You have to have Fedora (or some other distro) on the device to get KDE onto it, don't you?
Do people wanting to do this simply want to do it in an attempt
to...?
For me, wanting to do this is an attempt to move into the mobile computing age, discard my old and redundant equipment (desktop/laptop)... and still have Fedora!
Oh, so you want to eliminate your desktop and laptop and move to a single mobile platform with, ideally, Fedora as the underlying OS.
Just my opinion, but I don't see mobile platforms (smart phones, tablets) as exclusionary devices but complementary. As long as there is a way to easily share content between devices and one is not locked into proprietary formats I'm happy. (I see folks have reported MTP being supported in the most recent kernels.)
I personally don't see any advantage but I do see potential pitfalls in taking the route you're contemplating.
Ed Greshko wrote:
...so you want to eliminate your desktop and laptop and move to a single mobile platform with, ideally, Fedora as the underlying OS. ...I don't see mobile platforms... as exclusionary devices but complementary.
I entertain the Bauhaus/Ikea/Zen philosophy of minimalism. All-in- one appeals to me from that aspect. I see that it might not yet be practical or even possible.
Hi!
2013/3/20 Peter Gueckel pgueckel@gmail.com:
Ed Greshko wrote:
...so you want to eliminate your desktop and laptop and move to a single mobile platform with, ideally, Fedora as the underlying OS. ...I don't see mobile platforms... as exclusionary devices but complementary.
I entertain the Bauhaus/Ikea/Zen philosophy of minimalism. All-in- one appeals to me from that aspect. I see that it might not yet be practical or even possible.
As many others have already said I don't think this will work.
A smartphone is great on the go because it is light, portable and always available in your pocket.
A tablet is great to use at home (or in a plane) to write some short emails or to watch a movie.
A computer is great when you need to do some serious work, i.e. a spreedsheet or a project plan with thousands of line. CAD. Image processing.
Every device has its purpose and it is suboptimal outside it.
The same with the tools you use at home. A hammer is not suitable for the same things as the screwdriver.
I see no real advantage of running the same OS on all devices. The way things are at the moment there is already a decent level of integration. I can read the same emails in all devices. I can chat with people on all devices and switch on the fly. My contacts and calendars are automatically synchronized. I use some great apps in my mobile and I use some great apps in my desktop computer.
Greetings,
-- Jorge Martínez López jorgeml@gmail.com http://www.jorgeml.net
Ed Greshko wrote:
What is the advantage of running (K)Ubuntu or any other Linux distro on a smartphone or tablet?
I would find it a great advantage to run the same, or similar, OS's or DE's on laptop and phone, just for simplicity.
For example, I would like to use KMail on my Samsung Galaxy S2, collecting mail through IMAP from my server. I'd like to run Firefox on my phone, just because that is what I am familiar with.
I find the sync-ing between phone and computer less than satisfactory. If both presented the same interface it would be much better (for me).
I would consider going over to Ubuntu on laptop and phone if I were reasonably sure that would simplify my life.
Am 20.03.2013 12:47, schrieb Timothy Murphy:
Ed Greshko wrote:
What is the advantage of running (K)Ubuntu or any other Linux distro on a smartphone or tablet?
I would find it a great advantage to run the same, or similar, OS's or DE's on laptop and phone, just for simplicity
it makes pretty no sense to use the same DE on a smartphone this would mean cripple it down for desktop users or have a unuseable one on the smartphone
why do people not realize this?
For example, I would like to use KMail on my Samsung Galaxy S2, collecting mail through IMAP from my server
have fun with the desktop UI on a smartphone K9 for android is far better optimized for the use-case
I'd like to run Firefox on my phone, just because that is what I am familiar with.
it exists for Android and guess what: it does not have the same UI for reasons above
I find the sync-ing between phone and computer less than satisfactory. If both presented the same interface it would be much better (for me).
you BELIEVE it would be much better but ignore that any application on a smartphone needs to realize the envirnoment and come up with a different UI or it will be unuseable
I would consider going over to Ubuntu on laptop and phone if I were reasonably sure that would simplify my life
and you think you can use any application like OpenOffice with the existing user-interface on WHATEVER OS on a smartphone? how do you come to that conclusion?
On 03/20/13 19:55, Reindl Harald wrote:
Am 20.03.2013 12:47, schrieb Timothy Murphy:
Ed Greshko wrote:
What is the advantage of running (K)Ubuntu or any other Linux distro on a smartphone or tablet?
I would find it a great advantage to run the same, or similar, OS's or DE's on laptop and phone, just for simplicity
it makes pretty no sense to use the same DE on a smartphone this would mean cripple it down for desktop users or have a unuseable one on the smartphone
why do people not realize this?
Maybe they will realize it when presented with reality?
It seems, to me, intuitive that the form factor makes it impractical to have the same DE on a smartphone as on a desktop. You'd have to configure everything to the lowest common denominator. Not what I want on my desktop.
For example, I would like to use KMail on my Samsung Galaxy S2, collecting mail through IMAP from my server
have fun with the desktop UI on a smartphone K9 for android is far better optimized for the use-case
Yep, that is what I use. Now if they only would support threading. :-)
I'd like to run Firefox on my phone, just because that is what I am familiar with.
it exists for Android and guess what: it does not have the same UI for reasons above
And Chrome for Android is not the same as Chrome on the desktop. Gee.... I wonder why. :-)
I find the sync-ing between phone and computer less than satisfactory. If both presented the same interface it would be much better (for me).
you BELIEVE it would be much better but ignore that any application on a smartphone needs to realize the envirnoment and come up with a different UI or it will be unuseable
Ahh, one also has to realize that the syncing between phone and computer will not be improved by having the same interface on both. There is no correlation.
On Wed, 2013-03-20 at 11:47 +0000, Timothy Murphy wrote:
Ed Greshko wrote:
What is the advantage of running (K)Ubuntu or any other Linux distro on a smartphone or tablet?
I would find it a great advantage to run the same, or similar, OS's or DE's on laptop and phone, just for simplicity.
[Jumping into the middle of this, so apologies if I'm going over old ground here].
Be careful what you wish for. The usage cases are not the same, so a system optimized for one will typically not be optimized for the other.
For example, I would like to use KMail on my Samsung Galaxy S2, collecting mail through IMAP from my server. I'd like to run Firefox on my phone, just because that is what I am familiar with.
AFAIK you already can run Firefox (or Chrome) on that platform. I have both on my Google Nexus phone (Android 4.2.2). KMail not so much, but other IMAP clients yes. In fact I just use the GMail app but there are others.
To my mind, the important thing is being able to access all your data, even if the user interface is different.
I find the sync-ing between phone and computer less than satisfactory. If both presented the same interface it would be much better (for me).
I don't think this is an interface problem. Android >=4 doesn't allow direct access to files via the USB port (unless the phone is rooted), so syncing has to use the pretty lame MTP protocol. This is OS-independent, but very limited in its capabilities.
I would consider going over to Ubuntu on laptop and phone if I were reasonably sure that would simplify my life.
Sure, but it remains to be seen how much simpler your life actually gets. The Ubuntu phone interface has some interesting features, but it's different from the desktop (which they are also they are trying to change, over howls of protest from many users).
poc
On 03/19/2013 08:17 PM, Peter Gueckel wrote:
Temlakos wrote:
Here's another possibility: maybe... Fedora will run the servers on private clouds...
Your prediction would exclude the average computer user. That's a shame.
Not necessarily. A private Cloud could be you and your friends chipping in and building a server farm in your church, synagogue, lodge, or wherever.
Temlakos
On Tue, Mar 19, 2013 at 4:26 PM, Peter Gueckel pgueckel@gmail.com wrote:
Peter Gueckel wrote:
Good grief! I had no idea that this would result in such a heated exchange :-)
As some have pointed out, the smartphone is a computer. Also, many users are giving up their desktop and laptop computers for smartphones and, sometimes, an additional tablet.
Given this development, does Fedora have anything to offer them?
So far in the discussion, the answer appears to be that it doesn't.
Given this development, who will be using Fedora, if it cannot be used on the devices people nowadays are purchasing and using?
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A thought:
People are not out buying box- or folding-computers because the market is saturated. No one needs the latest, and greatest computer, but we still have them, and we may still need them to write essays / reports; thus, we still need the OS. We are, however, going to need, for the present time, the latest, and greatest smart phone.
We may need to buy computers when voice-activation comes along - at which time they may be built into the houses, and these will need the OS.
I believe we want to develop for the hand-held data-device; we sell the OS by installing on our own devices, overtop of Android.
Just my thoughts on redundancy.
On Tue, 2013-03-19 at 12:38 -0600, Peter Gueckel wrote:
I have been looking at smartphones and tablets (I presently own neither, due to outrageous monthly fees and lengthy contracts), as I am starting to feel that I no longer want to do without mobility.
However, how does Fedora fit into this? Is there a way to put Fedora onto a tablet or smartphone?
Ubuntu offers an intriguing compromise, for users of an Android phone. Hook up a keyboard and monitor and run Ubuntu, so you don't exactly have your full system in your hand, but you _do_ have it in your pocket. Pretty cool, but it's not KDE-Fedora!
How do you go about it?
---- use Ubuntu for this - Canonical is paying people to develop and test this software and as far as a normal Linux OS on ARM hardware goes, they really are in the lead. Perhaps some day Fedora will have an install package for this if they don't have something already.
Also - you probably will not want to use KDE at this stage either since there are other DE's that are touch enabled.
Craig
Craig White wrote:
On Tue, 2013-03-19 at 12:38 -0600, Peter Gueckel wrote:
I have been looking at smartphones and tablets (I presently own neither, due to outrageous monthly fees and lengthy contracts),
as
I am starting to feel that I no longer want to do without
mobility.
However, how does Fedora fit into this? Is there a way to put Fedora onto a tablet or smartphone?
Ubuntu offers an intriguing compromise, for users of an Android phone. Hook up a keyboard and monitor and run Ubuntu, so you
don't
exactly have your full system in your hand, but you _do_ have it
in
your pocket. Pretty cool, but it's not KDE-Fedora!
How do you go about it?
use Ubuntu for this - Canonical is paying people to develop and
test
this software and as far as a normal Linux OS on ARM hardware
goes, they
really are in the lead. Perhaps some day Fedora will have an
install
package for this if they don't have something already.
Also - you probably will not want to use KDE at this stage either
since
there are other DE's that are touch enabled.
Your impression appears to sum it up: Ubuntu is ahead on this front at the present time. Lack of touch support in KDE Plasma would make it uninteresting for 99% of mobile device users. Let's hope there will be more interest in the near future, as the hardware will undoubtedly continue to become smaller and more powerful.
I am not about to abandon my desktop computer yet: I require a large monitor and a platform with the ability to run qemu and other full-scale applications that would certainly be tedious on present- day mobile devices.
Thanks for the response :-)
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