Installing in a virtual machine, the spinning worm doesn't spin. The progress bar moves, the install works, but there was apparently no point in the spinner at the left of the progress info.
The first thing the intro to gnome 42 tells me is to use the "Super" key. There is no key labelled "Super". Some hint about alternate names might help the newbies the intro is presumably designed to help (experimentation revealed it was the Start key :-).
Shutting down the virtual machine hung for about two minutes waiting for packagekit.service to stop.
On Wed, 2022-05-11 at 10:39 -0400, Tom Horsley wrote:
The first thing the intro to gnome 42 tells me is to use the "Super" key. There is no key labelled "Super". Some hint about alternate names might help the newbies the intro is presumably designed to help (experimentation revealed it was the Start key :-).
Yes, since we don't use these all the time I often have to look them up (and find conflicting info). And you can can change some of them.
Generally, the super key = logo key (it has the Mac or Windows logo on it), though you may need to have configured it yourself, beforehand.
Meta *can* be the right ALT key (AltGr on some keyboards).
"Alt" gives you an alternate function with another key (depending the system that could be typing an alternate character, or it could be an alternate function - like CTRL and C is copy in many programs, ALT and C could be something like that).
"AltGr" could give you an alternate graphic with some keys (used for adding accents to some letters on some systems).
The names hark back to a "Space Cadet" computer keyboard, which had special extra keys with those names printed on them.
It gets more fun when you have a Mac keyboard, or use a Windows keyboard on a Mac, as the positions of ALT and LOGO are swapped, and you don't know if they'll function according to the legend printed on the keycap, or according to their position on the keyboard.
NB: You can have two ALT keys either side of the space bar, two logo keys either side of the spacebar, etc. It's configurable whether they both do the same function or do something completely different.
This all harks back to traditional typing. There's two shift keys on the keyboard, the idea being that if you wanted to type a capital A, you'd hold the right shift down with your right little finger, and type A with your left little finger. The same idea goes for CTRL keys, etc.
i.e. You didn't contort your left hand into awkward positions trying to press more than one key at a time with just one hand.
Then the fun begins with what are third and fourth level choosers, or keyboard modifiers. Taking the E key for example:
1st: You press e, by itself, and you get lower case e.
2nd: You press shift and e, and you get upper case E.
3rd: You press some special key, and another character key, and you may be able to type an accent to add to a letter e, or you may directly type an é with an accent on it.
4th: You press the same special key as the 3rd level with the shift key, then another character key, to be able to type even more special characters.
5th: You press another special key, then a character key, to be able to type even further special characters.
The special keys used for third, fourth, and fifth levels is often NOT predefined, you have to set it up in your keyboard options.
It gets ridiculous trying to remember the functions of those extra levels, and it's usually easier to use the COMPOSE key feature, for the odd few special symbols that you use.
You define some key to be your compose key (e.g. the right logo key), then you tap it and two character keys, one after another, to compose a character out of symbols that look like what you want to achieve (or are otherwise memorable as hotkeys).
compose, letter e, apostrophe, gives me é compose, letter e, carat symbol (shift+6 on my keyboard), gives me ê compose, letter c, letter o, gives me ǒ compose, leeter o, letter c, gives me © compose, letter o, letter o, gives me the degree symbol ° compose, letter a, letter e, gives me the æ ligature
Some make sense, such as the O and C for the copyright c in a circle symbol. Others don't, such as C and O giving a o with a v above it. I'd expect to have typed compose, o, v, to get that.
On Thu, 2022-05-12 at 14:05 +0930, Tim via users wrote:
You define some key to be your compose key (e.g. the right logo key), then you tap it and two character keys, one after another, to compose a character out of symbols that look like what you want to achieve (or are otherwise memorable as hotkeys).
compose, letter e, apostrophe, gives me é compose, letter e, carat symbol (shift+6 on my keyboard), gives me ê compose, letter c, letter o, gives me ǒ compose, leeter o, letter c, gives me © compose, letter o, letter o, gives me the degree symbol ° compose, letter a, letter e, gives me the æ ligature
I type quite a lot in Spanish, so I use dead keys for accents, thus: ' a -> á ' e -> é and so on. For other characters such as ¿ or ¡ I use a combo (Shift- AltGr-_ and Shift-AltGr-! respectively). I also defined the Scroll Lock on my keyboard to switch the dead keys on or off, which means I constantly forget which mode I'm in, but you can't have everything.
poc
On 5/12/22 03:26, Patrick O'Callaghan wrote:
On Thu, 2022-05-12 at 14:05 +0930, Tim via users wrote:
You define some key to be your compose key (e.g. the right logo key), then you tap it and two character keys, one after another, to compose a character out of symbols that look like what you want to achieve (or are otherwise memorable as hotkeys).
compose, letter e, apostrophe, gives me é compose, letter e, carat symbol (shift+6 on my keyboard), gives me ê compose, letter c, letter o, gives me ǒ compose, leeter o, letter c, gives me © compose, letter o, letter o, gives me the degree symbol ° compose, letter a, letter e, gives me the æ ligature
Hah! I didn't know that. I've been doing the reverse. <compose><apostrophe><e> => é, etc
I type quite a lot in Spanish, so I use dead keys for accents, thus: ' a -> á ' e -> é and so on. For other characters such as ¿ or ¡ I use a combo (Shift- AltGr-_ and Shift-AltGr-! respectively). I also defined the Scroll Lock on my keyboard to switch the dead keys on or off, which means I constantly forget which mode I'm in, but you can't have everything.
For ¡ and ¿ I use <compose><shift><!!> and <compose><shift><??>
For fractions: <compose><1><2> => ½, etc.
With a bit of trial and error I've found compose key combos for most of the "enhanced" characters I use. When I can't find what I need I resort to control shift U followed by a 2, 3, or 4 digit hex unicode, then a <space> or a <return>. That opens the world of alphabets and glyphs such as CJK, cyrillic, greek, etc...
:m
On 5/12/22 5:02 PM, Tom Horsley wrote:
On Thu, 12 May 2022 07:50:31 -0700 Mike Wright wrote:
When I can't find what I need
I don't even try to make my fingers work, I just look up special characters on the web and cut and paste them from the browser :-). (Obviously I don't need them a lot).
kcharselect from KDE also includes the ability to search for the char description, like "frame" to discover the existenceof char 🖼 (unicode U+1f5bc, frame with picture).
I don't think you can easily compose a Mona Lisa. :-)
Regards.
On Thu, 2022-05-12 at 19:58 +0200, Roberto Ragusa wrote:
On 5/12/22 5:02 PM, Tom Horsley wrote:
On Thu, 12 May 2022 07:50:31 -0700 Mike Wright wrote:
When I can't find what I need
I don't even try to make my fingers work, I just look up special characters on the web and cut and paste them from the browser :-). (Obviously I don't need them a lot).
kcharselect from KDE also includes the ability to search for the char description, like "frame" to discover the existenceof char 🖼 (unicode U+1f5bc, frame with picture).
Didn't know about this. Very useful. It would be even better if it also showed the keyboard combo required to type each character with the current settings, and be available via a toolbar widget.
poc
Tom Horsley:
I don't even try to make my fingers work, I just look up special characters on the web and cut and paste them from the browser :-). (Obviously I don't need them a lot).
Roberto Ragusa:
kcharselect from KDE also includes the ability to search for the char description
The gnome and mate character map application also lets you search for things, including in their descriptions.
On Thu, 2022-05-12 at 07:50 -0700, Mike Wright wrote:
I type quite a lot in Spanish, so I use dead keys for accents, thus: ' a -> á ' e -> é and so on. For other characters such as ¿ or ¡ I use a combo (Shift- AltGr-_ and Shift-AltGr-! respectively). I also defined the Scroll Lock on my keyboard to switch the dead keys on or off, which means I constantly forget which mode I'm in, but you can't have everything.
For ¡ and ¿ I use <compose><shift><!!> and <compose><shift><??>
Good idea. I must try that. I forget where I saw the combo I'm using but it might have been just the default.
For fractions: <compose><1><2> => ½, etc.
OK.
poc
Sent from ProtonMail, encrypted email based in Switzerland. Sent with ProtonMail secure email. ------- Original Message ------- On Thursday, May 12th, 2022 at 10:44 AM, Patrick O'Callaghan pocallaghan@gmail.com wrote:
On Thu, 2022-05-12 at 07:50 -0700, Mike Wright wrote:
I type quite a lot in Spanish, so I use dead keys for accents, thus: ' a -> á ' e -> é and so on. For other characters such as ¿ or ¡ I use a combo (Shift- AltGr-_ and Shift-AltGr-! respectively). I also defined the Scroll Lock on my keyboard to switch the dead keys on or off, which means I constantly forget which mode I'm in, but you can't have everything. For ¡ and ¿ I use <compose><shift><!!> and <compose><shift><??>
Good idea. I must try that. I forget where I saw the combo I'm using but it might have been just the default.
For fractions: <compose><1><2> => ½, etc.
OK.
poc _______________________________________________ users mailing list -- users@lists.fedoraproject.org To unsubscribe send an email to users-leave@lists.fedoraproject.org Fedora Code of Conduct: https://docs.fedoraproject.org/en-US/project/code-of-conduct/ List Guidelines: https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Mailing_list_guidelines List Archives: https://lists.fedoraproject.org/archives/list/users@lists.fedoraproject.org Do not reply to spam on the list, report it: https://pagure.io/fedora-infrastructure
I am running Gnome and had a command in ~/.bash_profile to compose setxkbmap -compose ralt key
to put a ñ I used ~ and n but it does not work anymore :(. What is the magic incantanation? I am using Tom's technique copy paste from web browser. But if I can use a compose key strategy, it would be appreciated if there is a how-to and independent of which desktop one uses.
Best Regards,
Antonio
On 5/12/22 17:45, olivares33561 via users wrote:
I am running Gnome and had a command in ~/.bash_profile to compose setxkbmap -compose ralt key
to put a ñ I used ~ and n but it does not work anymore :(. What is the magic incantanation? I am using Tom's technique copy paste from web browser. But if I can use a compose key strategy, it would be appreciated if there is a how-to and independent of which desktop one uses.
That combination works for me by default. Do any other compose combinations work for you?
On Fri, 13 May 2022 00:45:50 +0000 olivares33561 via users users@lists.fedoraproject.org wrote:
I am running Gnome and had a command in ~/.bash_profile to compose setxkbmap -compose ralt key
to put a ñ I used ~ and n but it does not work anymore :(. What is the magic incantanation? I am using Tom's technique copy paste from web browser. But if I can use a compose key strategy, it would be appreciated if there is a how-to and independent of which desktop one uses.
Are you using wayland? If I remember correctly, setxkbmap doesn’t work under wayland. I am still using X windows, so I don’t know the answer.
Jim
Sent from ProtonMail, encrypted email based in Switzerland. Sent with ProtonMail secure email. ------- Original Message ------- On Friday, May 13th, 2022 at 12:22 PM, James Szinger jszinger@gmail.com wrote:
On Fri, 13 May 2022 00:45:50 +0000 olivares33561 via users users@lists.fedoraproject.org wrote:
I am running Gnome and had a command in ~/.bash_profile to compose setxkbmap -compose ralt key
to put a ñ I used ~ and n but it does not work anymore :(. What is the magic incantanation? I am using Tom's technique copy paste from web browser. But if I can use a compose key strategy, it would be appreciated if there is a how-to and independent of which desktop one uses.
Are you using wayland? If I remember correctly, setxkbmap doesn’t work under wayland. I am still using X windows, so I don’t know the answer.
Jim _______________________________________________
yes using wayland. What do I have to do to get composing working? I use right alt key.
Best Regards,
Antonio
On Fri, 13 May 2022 18:54:03 +0000 olivares33561 via users wrote:
yes using wayland. What do I have to do to get composing working? I use right alt key.
No idea if the user interface can do it, but I was having the same trouble with no way to remap mouse buttons, so I removed the problem by implementing what I wanted in external hardware between my mouse and my computer (not something that would work on a laptop though without switching to an external mouse):
https://tomhorsley.com/hardware/mouse-tailor/mouse-tailor.html
Gotta get back to spiffing up the microcode someday, right now it is hard coded to do exactly (and only) what I want to do.
Since a keyboard could be run through a similar setup, maybe it would be possible to make the compose stuff external.
On Fri, 2022-05-13 at 00:45 +0000, olivares33561 via users wrote:
I am running Gnome and had a command in ~/.bash_profile to compose setxkbmap -compose ralt key
to put a ñ I used ~ and n but it does not work anymore :(. What is the magic incantanation? I am using Tom's technique copy paste from web browser. But if I can use a compose key strategy, it would be appreciated if there is a how-to and independent of which desktop one uses.
I use dead keys for diacriticals: áéíóúüñ. It's just a keyboard layout selection. I only use the Compose key for ¿ and !.
poc
On 5/12/22 07:50, Mike Wright wrote:
On 5/12/22 03:26, Patrick O'Callaghan wrote:
On Thu, 2022-05-12 at 14:05 +0930, Tim via users wrote:
You define some key to be your compose key (e.g. the right logo key), then you tap it and two character keys, one after another, to compose a character out of symbols that look like what you want to achieve (or are otherwise memorable as hotkeys).
compose, letter e, apostrophe, gives me é compose, letter e, carat symbol (shift+6 on my keyboard), gives me ê compose, letter c, letter o, gives me ǒ compose, leeter o, letter c, gives me © compose, letter o, letter o, gives me the degree symbol ° compose, letter a, letter e, gives me the æ ligature
Hah! I didn't know that. I've been doing the reverse. <compose><apostrophe><e> => é, etc
The order doesn't matter. It's just the resulting combination. (I also usually put the accent first.)
On 5/12/22 13:50, Samuel Sieb wrote:
On 5/12/22 07:50, Mike Wright wrote:
On 5/12/22 03:26, Patrick O'Callaghan wrote:
On Thu, 2022-05-12 at 14:05 +0930, Tim via users wrote:
You define some key to be your compose key (e.g. the right logo key), then you tap it and two character keys, one after another, to compose a character out of symbols that look like what you want to achieve (or are otherwise memorable as hotkeys).
compose, letter e, apostrophe, gives me é compose, letter e, carat symbol (shift+6 on my keyboard), gives me ê compose, letter c, letter o, gives me ǒ compose, leeter o, letter c, gives me © compose, letter o, letter o, gives me the degree symbol ° compose, letter a, letter e, gives me the æ ligature
Hah! I didn't know that. I've been doing the reverse. <compose><apostrophe><e> => é, etc
The order doesn't matter. It's just the resulting combination. (I also usually put the accent first.)
Generally true but not always. Here's one example:
<compose><c><o> => ǒ <compose><o><c> => ©
:m
On Thu, 2022-05-12 at 11:26 +0100, Patrick O'Callaghan wrote:
I type quite a lot in Spanish, so I use dead keys for accents, thus: ' a -> á ' e -> é and so on. For other characters such as ¿ or ¡ I use a combo (Shift- AltGr-_ and Shift-AltGr-! respectively).
I tried dead keys, but it made normal typing a pain. I couldn't simply type a comma, for instance. I'd have to double-type it. But that was long ago.
I also defined the Scroll Lock on my keyboard to switch the dead keys on or off, which means I constantly forget which mode I'm in, but you can't have everything.
I can't say I've ever used the scroll lock for anything, and this keyboard has no indicator light to show whether it's on or off.
The Caps Lock is nearly everybody's bugbear. I actually want to use it, sometimes, so I won't disable it. Over the years I'd tried the various things that made a beep if you hit it, so you stopped typing and corrected it (when it was an accidental press). But couldn't find the option on some releases.
Recently I unsoldered the caps lock indicator LED and put a blindingly bright red LED in its place on my keyboard, that's my universal fix. So far, so good. I might do it to some other keyboards. Perhaps a fast flashing one, so it just screams for attention.
I just wish they put the damn lights next to their keys, so it's obvious which was which. My laptop is even worse, it has them hidden behind a grill, so they're almost invisible.
On Fri, 13 May 2022 11:07:56 +0930 Tim via users wrote:
I just wish they put the damn lights next to their keys, so it's obvious which was which. My laptop is even worse, it has them hidden behind a grill, so they're almost invisible.
My logitech MX keys keyboard has the indicator light build into the button (but it isn't very bright).
On Fri, May 13, 2022 at 9:21 AM Tom Horsley horsley1953@gmail.com wrote:
On Fri, 13 May 2022 11:07:56 +0930 Tim via users wrote:
I just wish they put the damn lights next to their keys, so it's obvious which was which. My laptop is even worse, it has them hidden behind a grill, so they're almost invisible.
My logitech MX keys keyboard has the indicator light build into the button (but it isn't very bright).
At my former work we had a large variety of systems and keyboards. Some users had ergonomic keyboards split in the middle, some had trackballs, some used Wacom tablets. For things that involved a lot of typing I plugged in a keyboard with a 2-headed cable (PS2 and USB) and built-in touchpad. In recent years, however, I use a mix of laptops and desktops with different spacing that often messes with touch typing. Now I use a Raspberry Pi keyboard. It is compact and (like Apple wired keyboards) has usb ports for pointing devices and USB dongles. Indicator lights are in a row at the top right (like my Dell keyboards).
Tim:
I just wish they put the damn lights next to their keys, so it's obvious which was which. My laptop is even worse, it has them hidden behind a grill, so they're almost invisible.
Tom Horsley:
My logitech MX keys keyboard has the indicator light build into the button (but it isn't very bright).
My old Amiga keyboard's CAPS LOCK did that, it's a feature I always appreciated. I can't recall ever seeing any other keyboard that did it.
On Thu, May 12, 2022 at 12:36 AM Tim via users users@lists.fedoraproject.org wrote:
On Wed, 2022-05-11 at 10:39 -0400, Tom Horsley wrote:
The first thing the intro to gnome 42 tells me is to use the "Super" key. There is no key labelled "Super". Some hint about alternate names might help the newbies the intro is presumably designed to help (experimentation revealed it was the Start key :-).
Yes, since we don't use these all the time I often have to look them up (and find conflicting info). And you can can change some of them.
Generally, the super key = logo key (it has the Mac or Windows logo on it), though you may need to have configured it yourself, beforehand.
Meta *can* be the right ALT key (AltGr on some keyboards).
If the installation is GUI-based, would it make sense to show drawings of the Mac/Windows keys in the install/setup instructions, so new/forgetful users know what to look for?
On Thu, 2022-05-12 at 17:06 -0400, Mauricio Tavares wrote:
On Thu, May 12, 2022 at 12:36 AM Tim via users users@lists.fedoraproject.org wrote:
On Wed, 2022-05-11 at 10:39 -0400, Tom Horsley wrote:
The first thing the intro to gnome 42 tells me is to use the "Super" key. There is no key labelled "Super". Some hint about alternate names might help the newbies the intro is presumably designed to help (experimentation revealed it was the Start key :-).
Yes, since we don't use these all the time I often have to look them up (and find conflicting info). And you can can change some of them.
Generally, the super key = logo key (it has the Mac or Windows logo on it), though you may need to have configured it yourself, beforehand.
Meta *can* be the right ALT key (AltGr on some keyboards).
If the installation is GUI-based, would it make sense to show drawings of the Mac/Windows keys in the install/setup instructions, so new/forgetful users know what to look for?
One thing I've always admired about the MacOS UI (among a bunch of things I don't like about it) is the keyboard widget, which is always available. Click on it and you get the layout of the keyboard, but it's *dynamic*. Press Shift, Ctrl, Command etc. and the layout shows you exactly what character will be produced (you can also copy it to the clipboard of course). Some time ago I asked on the list if there was anything comparable on Linux, but apparently there isn't.
poc
12.05.22, 23:32 +0200, Patrick O'Callaghan:
One thing I've always admired about the MacOS UI (among a bunch of things I don't like about it) is the keyboard widget, which is always available. Click on it and you get the layout of the keyboard, but it's *dynamic*. Press Shift, Ctrl, Command etc. and the layout shows you exactly what character will be produced (you can also copy it to the clipboard of course). Some time ago I asked on the list if there was anything comparable on Linux, but apparently there isn't.
Take a look at Onboard https://packages.fedoraproject.org/pkgs/onboard/onboard/
On Fri, 2022-05-13 at 00:15 +0200, Markus Schönhaber wrote:
12.05.22, 23:32 +0200, Patrick O'Callaghan:
One thing I've always admired about the MacOS UI (among a bunch of things I don't like about it) is the keyboard widget, which is always available. Click on it and you get the layout of the keyboard, but it's *dynamic*. Press Shift, Ctrl, Command etc. and the layout shows you exactly what character will be produced (you can also copy it to the clipboard of course). Some time ago I asked on the list if there was anything comparable on Linux, but apparently there isn't.
Take a look at Onboard https://packages.fedoraproject.org/pkgs/onboard/onboard/
No, that's not what I mean. We've had this discussion before:
https://lists.fedoraproject.org/archives/list/users@lists.fedoraproject.org/...
poc
On Thu, 2022-05-12 at 17:06 -0400, Mauricio Tavares wrote:
If the installation is GUI-based, would it make sense to show drawings of the Mac/Windows keys in the install/setup instructions, so new/forgetful users know what to look for?
Yes it would. But it doesn't mean programmers think that way.
On a few occasions I've played with them to reveal the mysteries of some keyboard incantations, but they aren't always identical to the real keyboard you're using.
And a few times I've used an on-screen keyboard because a real one has gone bad. On occasions it's taken a few login failures to realise that I haven't typed it wrong, a key on the keyboard was failing.
On Fri, 2022-05-13 at 11:18 +0930, Tim via users wrote:
On Thu, 2022-05-12 at 17:06 -0400, Mauricio Tavares wrote:
If the installation is GUI-based, would it make sense to show drawings of the Mac/Windows keys in the install/setup instructions, so new/forgetful users know what to look for?
Yes it would. But it doesn't mean programmers think that way.
On a few occasions I've played with them to reveal the mysteries of some keyboard incantations, but they aren't always identical to the real keyboard you're using.
And a few times I've used an on-screen keyboard because a real one has gone bad. On occasions it's taken a few login failures to realise that I haven't typed it wrong, a key on the keyboard was failing.
<OT> That calls to mind an old war story from decades ago.
User complains that his password doesn't work when he's standing up, only when he's sitting down.
After much head-scratching, it turns out that a couple of keycaps had been switched. When seated, the user would touch-type his password, but when standing he would be looking at the keys.
I always liked that one :-) </OT>
poc
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George N. White III -
James Szinger -
Markus Schönhaber -
Mauricio Tavares -
Mike Wright -
olivares33561 -
Patrick O'Callaghan -
Roberto Ragusa -
Samuel Sieb -
Tim -
Tom Horsley