5:49 p.m.
I know this is strictly OT, but I suggest it's of some interest to this
list:
https://www.cnbc.com/2018/10/28/ibm-to-acquire-red-hat-in-deal-valued-at-...
poc
7:20 p.m.
On 10/28/2018 04:49 PM, Patrick O'Callaghan wrote:
I know this is strictly OT, but I suggest it's of some interest
to this
list:
https://www.cnbc.com/2018/10/28/ibm-to-acquire-red-hat-in-deal-valued-at-...
More discussion here:
https://linux.slashdot.org/story/18/10/28/1859245/ibm-to-buy-red-hat-the-...
7:36 p.m.
On Sun, 28 Oct 2018 18:20:05 -0600
Joe Zeff <joe(a)zeff.us> wrote:
On 10/28/2018 04:49 PM, Patrick O'Callaghan wrote:
> I know this is strictly OT, but I suggest it's of some interest to
> this list:
>
>
https://www.cnbc.com/2018/10/28/ibm-to-acquire-red-hat-in-deal-valued-at-...
More discussion here:
https://linux.slashdot.org/story/18/10/28/1859245/ibm-to-buy-red-hat-the-...
well there's still Debian
d
4:33 p.m.
On Mon, Oct 29, 2018 at 2:27 AM Dave Stevens <geek(a)uniserve.com> wrote:
On Sun, 28 Oct 2018 18:20:05 -0600 Joe Zeff <joe(a)zeff.us>
wrote:
> On 10/28/2018 04:49 PM, Patrick O'Callaghan wrote:
>>
>> I know this is strictly OT, but I suggest it's of some interest to
>> this list:
>>
>>
https://www.cnbc.com/2018/10/28/ibm-to-acquire-red-hat-in-deal-valued-at-...
>
> More discussion here:
>
https://linux.slashdot.org/story/18/10/28/1859245/ibm-to-buy-red-hat-the-...
well there's still Debian
And Ubuntu LTS. And Gentoo. And Funtoo. But these are alternatives to
RHEL not Fedora.
But isn't this jumping the gun?
As incompetent as IBM's management has been for the last 15 years or
so (and we can safely add paying a 63% premium for RH as its latest
epic fail; desperation...), I find it difficult to believe that IBM'll
kill the successful RH business model.
6:33 p.m.
On 10/29/18 2:33 PM, Tom H wrote:
As incompetent as IBM's management has been for the last 15 years
or
so (and we can safely add paying a 63% premium for RH as its latest
epic fail; desperation...), I find it difficult to believe that IBM'll
kill the successful RH business model.
They sure ruined Lotus. Sears ruined Lands' End too. One
can not imagine what was going through the suits minds.
8:03 p.m.
On 10/28/18 3:49 PM, Patrick O'Callaghan wrote:
I know this is strictly OT, but I suggest it's of some interest
to this
list:
https://www.cnbc.com/2018/10/28/ibm-to-acquire-red-hat-in-deal-valued-at-...
poc
Oh [expletive deleted] !!!
IBM RUINED Lotus.
Hopefully Fedora an spin off on their own.
8:38 p.m.
On 10/28/18 6:49 PM, Patrick O'Callaghan wrote:
I know this is strictly OT, but I suggest it's of some interest
to this
list:
https://www.cnbc.com/2018/10/28/ibm-to-acquire-red-hat-in-deal-valued-at-...
Red Hat owns and funds a lot of projects. I use Ansible on a daily basis
(along with Fedora). I wonder what's going to happen with those. GNOME
is largely funded by RH IIRC too, I use KDE these days myself. Depending
on what products of Red Hat's IBM is interested in there could be some
forking here soon. Of course IBM could also let Red Hat be Red Hat and
just collect the checks. Who knows right now.
Feels weird man. Love me some IBM buckling spring keyboards (typing this
on a '86 Model M) but I don't want them in my OS.
Leander
--
---
Leander Hutton
leander(a)one-button.org
www.leanderhutton.com
www.one-button.org
9:04 p.m.
On 10/28/18 6:38 PM, Leander Hutton wrote:
On 10/28/18 6:49 PM, Patrick O'Callaghan wrote:
> I know this is strictly OT, but I suggest it's of some interest to this
> list:
>
>
https://www.cnbc.com/2018/10/28/ibm-to-acquire-red-hat-in-deal-valued-at-...
Red Hat owns and funds a lot of projects. I use Ansible on a daily basis
(along with Fedora). I wonder what's going to happen with those. GNOME
is largely funded by RH IIRC too, I use KDE these days myself. Depending
on what products of Red Hat's IBM is interested in there could be some
forking here soon. Of course IBM could also let Red Hat be Red Hat and
just collect the checks. Who knows right now.
IBM ruined Lotus. Sears ruined Lands' End.
I do not see anything positive coming from this, unless Fedora
completely spins off.
RHEL is defunct, out-of-date garbage, so I see IBM slowly
closing that project down as it wont support their new code
and sticking with cloud services and such. I do not see
them support anything that does not directly affect their
immediate bottom line, especially with the financial hit
IBM took acquiring Red Hat.
I hope they leave qemu-kvm alone and spin it off as well.
I wonder if this will affect Libre Office as Red Hat
does some of LO's funding too.
Feels weird man. Love me some IBM buckling spring keyboards (typing this
on a '86 Model M) but I don't want them in my OS.
When it finally breaks, look up Unicomp. They have excellent buckling
spring keyboards. (I am typing on one right now.)
Leander
--
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Computers are like air conditioners.
They malfunction when you open windows
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
10:04 p.m.
On Sun, 2018-10-28 at 19:04 -0700, ToddAndMargo via users wrote:
RHEL is defunct, out-of-date garbage, so I see IBM slowly
closing that project down as it wont support their new code
and sticking with cloud services and such. I do not see
them support anything that does not directly affect their
immediate bottom line, especially with the financial hit
IBM took acquiring Red Hat.
If you want to go full conspiracist, then it's an obvious move. If you
want to force users into cloud computing, buy out the software that
does in-the-box computing, and take it away from the users.
--
uname -rsvp
Linux 3.10.0-862.14.4.el7.x86_64 #1 SMP Wed Sep 26 15:12:11 UTC 2018 x86_64
Boilerplate: All unexpected mail to my mailbox is automatically deleted.
I will only get to see the messages that are posted to the mailing list.
10:41 p.m.
On 10/28/18 11:04 PM, Tim via users wrote:
On Sun, 2018-10-28 at 19:04 -0700, ToddAndMargo via users wrote:
> RHEL is defunct, out-of-date garbage, so I see IBM slowly
> closing that project down as it wont support their new code
> and sticking with cloud services and such. I do not see
> them support anything that does not directly affect their
> immediate bottom line, especially with the financial hit
> IBM took acquiring Red Hat.
RHEL and Debian Stable take the same path. Stable, mostly just security
fixes during a release's lifeftime, etc. I usually prefer Debian in
server environments but at work we have quite a few RHEL machines too,
it's the popular choice for proprietary software vendors to target
because it's long lived and slow moving. Debian Stable and RHEL are both
very handy in situations where things absolutely positively cannot break.
I imagine IBM is mostly interested in OpenShift, JBoss and CoreOS. But
that's just a guess on my part. While I'm not a fan of IBM's business
practices and I've heard nothing good about the corporate culture I'm
not entirely doom and gloom on this. The thing is it's hard to kill GPL
software, if they do ignore it, try to close off parts, etc it will most
likely just get forked like Maria and LibreOffice did after Oracle
bought Sun.
Hopefully IBM will keep paying the RH devs that contribute to the kernel
and other Linux related projects. If they shut those folks down it will
have wider implications on the Linux ecosystem in general. Red Hat devs
make a lot of contributions to projects outside of RHEL and Fedora.
Leander
--
---
Leander Hutton
leander(a)one-button.org
www.leanderhutton.com
www.one-button.org
11:01 p.m.
On Sun, Oct 28, 2018 at 9:04 PM, Tim via users
<users(a)lists.fedoraproject.org> wrote:
On Sun, 2018-10-28 at 19:04 -0700, ToddAndMargo via users wrote:
> RHEL is defunct, out-of-date garbage, so I see IBM slowly
> closing that project down as it wont support their new code
> and sticking with cloud services and such. I do not see
> them support anything that does not directly affect their
> immediate bottom line, especially with the financial hit
> IBM took acquiring Red Hat.
If you want to go full conspiracist, then it's an obvious move. If you
want to force users into cloud computing, buy out the software that
does in-the-box computing, and take it away from the users.
Actually if they were to gut Red Hat on day 2 following the
acquisition in this manner, it would be fantastic. Everyone would get
to walk away. The shareholders (specifically) and the market
(generally) can see the value in supporting another startup of a Red
Hat like thing and there'd be a bunch of people available to get back
to work.
Of course they know this. And since they can't obliterate Red Hat just
to remove it as competition, this can't be the plan. The worse case
scenario is, given the dour state IBM is in, they need to keep Red Hat
independent and strong should they need to sell it off for emergency
cash down the road. And if they do manage to F* up Red Hat, well
that'll be pretty embarrassing won't it? And well before then, my
expectation is that the board hopes Red Hat culture can eventually
infiltrate and take over IBM leadership, which is the better case
scenario.
The reality is, Red Hat is a publicly traded company and there was
always a very good chance a big fish was going to come eat it, because
it was doing well. Anyway, the ultimate decision now is up to Red Hat
shareholders. Why would they say no though? They bought the stock to
make money, this is their big pay day.
--
Chris Murphy
12:18 a.m.
On Sun, 2018-10-28 at 22:01 -0600, Chris Murphy wrote:
The reality is, Red Hat is a publicly traded company and there was
always a very good chance a big fish was going to come eat it,
because it was doing well. Anyway, the ultimate decision now is up to
Red Hat shareholders. Why would they say no though? They bought the
stock to make money, this is their big pay day.
Ultimately, that's the horrible thing about capitalism. Things only
exist for monetary reasons, they don't really exist to do what the
product is for.
And you can say it about anything. e.g. The commercial phone companies
don't exist for people to be able to communicate (what their customers
consider their primary purpose to be). They're there to make money and
it really doesn't care how well the communications aspect of it works.
--
uname -rsvp
Linux 3.10.0-862.14.4.el7.x86_64 #1 SMP Wed Sep 26 15:12:11 UTC 2018 x86_64
Boilerplate: All unexpected mail to my mailbox is automatically deleted.
I will only get to see the messages that are posted to the mailing list.
1:56 a.m.
On 10/28/18 10:18 PM, Tim via users wrote:
On Sun, 2018-10-28 at 22:01 -0600, Chris Murphy wrote:
> The reality is, Red Hat is a publicly traded company and there was
> always a very good chance a big fish was going to come eat it,
> because it was doing well. Anyway, the ultimate decision now is up to
> Red Hat shareholders. Why would they say no though? They bought the
> stock to make money, this is their big pay day.
Ultimately, that's the horrible thing about capitalism. Things only
exist for monetary reasons, they don't really exist to do what the
product is for.
And you can say it about anything. e.g. The commercial phone companies
don't exist for people to be able to communicate (what their customers
consider their primary purpose to be). They're there to make money and
it really doesn't care how well the communications aspect of it works.
"Capitalism" is an insult term made up by Marxists to describe the Free
Market, which is "the free and open exchange of goods and services
between consenting parties". Under the Free Market, to meet your
own needs, you must meet the the needs of your customers.
Your description of communications customers only caring about money
falls apart. If the service stinks, folks go elsewhere. As a
small businessman, I can tell you that if I do not meet the needs
of my customers, I STARVE. I live it and breath it. I am only
rewarded for meeting my customers needs.
Red Hat has every right to sell itself to IBM, as Lands' End had every
right to sell itself to Sears. And I have every right to look elsewhere
for someone else that will meet my needs.
I hope Fedora survives this. If not, someone else will pick up
the slack.
3:44 a.m.
On 2018-10-28 at 23:56:45 ToddAndMargo via users wrote:
On 10/28/18 10:18 PM, Tim via users wrote:
> On Sun, 2018-10-28 at 22:01 -0600, Chris Murphy wrote:
>> The reality is, Red Hat is a publicly traded company and there was
>> always a very good chance a big fish was going to come eat it,
>> because it was doing well. Anyway, the ultimate decision now is up to
>> Red Hat shareholders. Why would they say no though? They bought the
>> stock to make money, this is their big pay day.
>
> Ultimately, that's the horrible thing about capitalism. Things only
> exist for monetary reasons, they don't really exist to do what the
> product is for.
>
> And you can say it about anything. e.g. The commercial phone companies
> don't exist for people to be able to communicate (what their customers
> consider their primary purpose to be). They're there to make money and
> it really doesn't care how well the communications aspect of it works.
"Capitalism" is an insult term made up by Marxists to describe the Free
Market, which is "the free and open exchange of goods and services
between consenting parties". Under the Free Market, to meet your
own needs, you must meet the the needs of your customers.
Your description of communications customers only caring about money
falls apart. If the service stinks, folks go elsewhere. As a
small businessman, I can tell you that if I do not meet the needs
of my customers, I STARVE. I live it and breath it. I am only
rewarded for meeting my customers needs.
Red Hat has every right to sell itself to IBM, as Lands' End had every
right to sell itself to Sears. And I have every right to look elsewhere
for someone else that will meet my needs.
I hope Fedora survives this. If not, someone else will pick up
the slack.
+1
--
Erik
6:17 a.m.
Capitalism is not a good system because of a sum of locally optimal
behaviors
doesn't need to result in an optimum. Behavior of companies oriented for
their
maximal profit causes negative devastating nature, social tensions,
devastating
democracy, even criminal overthrowing legally elected governments, murdering
"inconvenient" politicians, mass corruption of politics, journalists and
everybody
who agrees to sell their influences to public opinion, even the wars
initiated for
fabricated reasons like "spreading the good and democracy" by means of shame
-
less lies in UN or mass murders and genocide done by the terrorists painted
with
"mendacious colors" of so called "refugees," corrupting snipers for
shooting the
demonstrating people of the both sides etc. Totally wrong !
---------- Původní e-mail ----------
Od: Erik P. Olsen <epodata(a)gmail.com>
Komu: users(a)lists.fedoraproject.org
Datum: 29. 10. 2018 11:45:23
Předmět: Re: OT: IBM to buy RedHat
"On 2018-10-28 at 23:56:45 ToddAndMargo via users wrote:
On 10/28/18 10:18 PM, Tim via users wrote:
> On Sun, 2018-10-28 at 22:01 -0600, Chris Murphy wrote:
>> The reality is, Red Hat is a publicly traded company and there was
>> always a very good chance a big fish was going to come eat it,
>> because it was doing well. Anyway, the ultimate decision now is up to
>> Red Hat shareholders. Why would they say no though? They bought the
>> stock to make money, this is their big pay day.
>
> Ultimately, that's the horrible thing about capitalism. Things only
> exist for monetary reasons, they don't really exist to do what the
> product is for.
>
> And you can say it about anything. e.g. The commercial phone companies
> don't exist for people to be able to communicate (what their customers
> consider their primary purpose to be). They're there to make money and
> it really doesn't care how well the communications aspect of it works.
"Capitalism" is an insult term made up by Marxists to describe the Free
Market, which is "the free and open exchange of goods and services
between consenting parties". Under the Free Market, to meet your
own needs, you must meet the the needs of your customers.
Your description of communications customers only caring about money
falls apart. If the service stinks, folks go elsewhere. As a
small businessman, I can tell you that if I do not meet the needs
of my customers, I STARVE. I live it and breath it. I am only
rewarded for meeting my customers needs.
Red Hat has every right to sell itself to IBM, as Lands' End had every
right to sell itself to Sears. And I have every right to look elsewhere
for someone else that will meet my needs.
I hope Fedora survives this. If not, someone else will pick up
the slack.
+1
--
Erik
_______________________________________________
users mailing list -- users(a)lists.fedoraproject.org
To unsubscribe send an email to users-leave(a)lists.fedoraproject.org
Fedora Code of Conduct: https://getfedora.org/code-of-conduct.html
List Guidelines: https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Mailing_list_guidelines
List Archives: https://lists.fedoraproject.org/archives/list/users@lists.
fedoraproject.org
"
noon
On 10/29/18 4:17 AM, j.halifax2(a)seznam.cz wrote:
Capitalism is not a good system because of a sum of locally optimal
behaviors
doesn't need to result in an optimum. Behavior of companies oriented for
their
maximal profit causes negative devastating nature, social tensions,
devastating
democracy, even criminal overthrowing legally elected governments, murdering
"inconvenient" politicians, mass corruption of politics, journalists and
everybody
who agrees to sell their influences to public opinion, even the wars
initiated for
fabricated reasons like "spreading the good and democracy" by means of
shame-
less lies in UN or mass murders and genocide done by the terrorists
painted with
"mendacious colors" of so called "refugees," corrupting snipers for
shooting the
demonstrating people of the both sides etc. Totally wrong !
"Capitalism" is an economic vehicle, not an economic system.
Socialists use it extensively, mainly to fund their horrible
war machines -- the Soviets and the Nazis for instance.
Socialism only works on paper and requires the barrel of gun
to force others to produce when they do not get to see the
fruits of their labor. And keep in mind that Socialists
have cost humanity over 200 million souls in the past
decade alone.
The "free free market" on the other hand, if you do not meet
the needs of your customers, you fail. Sure, folks can cheat,
but they only get away with it for so long. Under the free market,
the only way to achieve maximum profit is keep your customers happy.
I live it and breath it every day of my life.
One of the few proper usages of government is to make sure folks
don't cheat (monopolies, etc.). But even without this, monopolies
do eventually fail anyway -- it just takes longer. Microsoft,
who does cheat, will feel the full force of this eventually.
Do not be fooled by flowery, utopian descriptions of Socialism
in college text books. Look around you. It has never been
successful anywhere it has been tried. And remember the lost
200 millions souls. A good place to start looking would be
the current situation in Venezuela.
1:45 p.m.
On Mon, 2018-10-29 at 10:00 -0700, ToddAndMargo via users wrote:
On 10/29/18 4:17 AM, j.halifax2(a)seznam.cz wrote:
> Capitalism is not a good system because of a sum of locally optimal
> behaviors
> doesn't need to result in an optimum. Behavior of companies oriented for
> their
> maximal profit causes negative devastating nature, social tensions,
> devastating
> democracy, even criminal overthrowing legally elected governments, murdering
> "inconvenient" politicians, mass corruption of politics, journalists and
> everybody
> who agrees to sell their influences to public opinion, even the wars
> initiated for
> fabricated reasons like "spreading the good and democracy" by means of
> shame-
> less lies in UN or mass murders and genocide done by the terrorists
> painted with
> "mendacious colors" of so called "refugees," corrupting snipers
for
> shooting the
> demonstrating people of the both sides etc. Totally wrong !
"Capitalism" is an economic vehicle, not an economic system.
Socialists use it extensively, mainly to fund their horrible
war machines -- the Soviets and the Nazis for instance.
Socialism only works on paper and requires the barrel of gun
to force others to produce when they do not get to see the
fruits of their labor. And keep in mind that Socialists
have cost humanity over 200 million souls in the past
decade alone.
The "free free market" on the other hand, if you do not meet
the needs of your customers, you fail. Sure, folks can cheat,
but they only get away with it for so long. Under the free market,
the only way to achieve maximum profit is keep your customers happy.
I live it and breath it every day of my life.
One of the few proper usages of government is to make sure folks
don't cheat (monopolies, etc.). But even without this, monopolies
do eventually fail anyway -- it just takes longer. Microsoft,
who does cheat, will feel the full force of this eventually.
Do not be fooled by flowery, utopian descriptions of Socialism
in college text books. Look around you. It has never been
successful anywhere it has been tried. And remember the lost
200 millions souls. A good place to start looking would be
the current situation in Venezuela.
Now we're really getting OT. I lived in Venezuela for over 30 years and
think I know more about the situation there than pretty much anyone
else on this list. I do NOT want to discuss it here.
I suggest this thread stay on topic and be limited to specific comments
on the IBM acquisition and what it may mean.
poc
3:52 p.m.
On Mon, Oct 29, 2018, 12:47 PM Patrick O'Callaghan <pocallaghan(a)gmail.com>
wrote:
Now we're really getting OT. I lived in Venezuela for over 30
years and
think I know more about the situation there than pretty much anyone
else on this list. I do NOT want to discuss it here.
I suggest this thread stay on topic and be limited to specific comments
on the IBM acquisition and what it may mean.
I agree. My undergraduate was political science and the real world is
extremely nuanced and complicated and treacherous, and the terms used in
politics have almost entirely different meanings in political science.
The vast majority of this thread reminds me of Feynman being asked about
magnetism. YouTube it. It's hilarious and spot on. He's like, 'I can't
even
have a coherent conversion about it (with the interviewer) because while
the question is reasonable and interesting, without a basic (which isn't so
basic) common frame of reference every answer I give you, you won't
understand, and every metaphor I use is cheating you of a valid answer and
therefore misleading.'
Single quote denotes paraphrasing.
Chris Murphy
5:41 a.m.
On Tue, 2018-10-30 at 14:52 -0600, Chris Murphy wrote:
On Mon, Oct 29, 2018, 12:47 PM Patrick O'Callaghan
<pocallaghan(a)gmail.com>
wrote:
> Now we're really getting OT. I lived in Venezuela for over 30 years and
> think I know more about the situation there than pretty much anyone
> else on this list. I do NOT want to discuss it here.
>
> I suggest this thread stay on topic and be limited to specific comments
> on the IBM acquisition and what it may mean.
I agree. My undergraduate was political science and the real world is
extremely nuanced and complicated and treacherous, and the terms used in
politics have almost entirely different meanings in political science.
The vast majority of this thread reminds me of Feynman being asked about
magnetism. YouTube it. It's hilarious and spot on. He's like, 'I can't
even
have a coherent conversion about it (with the interviewer) because while
the question is reasonable and interesting, without a basic (which isn't so
basic) common frame of reference every answer I give you, you won't
understand, and every metaphor I use is cheating you of a valid answer and
therefore misleading.'
Single quote denotes paraphrasing.
+1
poc
12:43 a.m.
You are right if seen through the glasses of capitalistic mass propaganda
excluding substantial facts. ;)
The fact that MS has cheated customers for ~30 years happily is a nice
proof that "something is wrong" in the capitalism. ;)
---------- Původní e-mail ----------
Od: ToddAndMargo via users <users(a)lists.fedoraproject.org>
Komu: users(a)lists.fedoraproject.org
Datum: 29. 10. 2018 20:01:27
Předmět: Re: OT: IBM to buy RedHat
"On 10/29/18 4:17 AM, j.halifax2(a)seznam.cz wrote:
Capitalism is not a good system because of a sum of locally optimal
behaviors
doesn't need to result in an optimum. Behavior of companies oriented for
their
maximal profit causes negative devastating nature, social tensions,
devastating
democracy, even criminal overthrowing legally elected governments,
murdering
"inconvenient" politicians, mass corruption of politics,
journalists and
everybody
who agrees to sell their influences to public opinion, even the wars
initiated for
fabricated reasons like "spreading the good and democracy" by means of
shame-
less lies in UN or mass murders and genocide done by the terrorists
painted with
"mendacious colors" of so called "refugees," corrupting snipers for
shooting the
demonstrating people of the both sides etc. Totally wrong !
"Capitalism" is an economic vehicle, not an economic system.
Socialists use it extensively, mainly to fund their horrible
war machines -- the Soviets and the Nazis for instance.
Socialism only works on paper and requires the barrel of gun
to force others to produce when they do not get to see the
fruits of their labor. And keep in mind that Socialists
have cost humanity over 200 million souls in the past
decade alone.
The "free free market" on the other hand, if you do not meet
the needs of your customers, you fail. Sure, folks can cheat,
but they only get away with it for so long. Under the free market,
the only way to achieve maximum profit is keep your customers happy.
I live it and breath it every day of my life.
One of the few proper usages of government is to make sure folks
don't cheat (monopolies, etc.). But even without this, monopolies
do eventually fail anyway -- it just takes longer. Microsoft,
who does cheat, will feel the full force of this eventually.
Do not be fooled by flowery, utopian descriptions of Socialism
in college text books. Look around you. It has never been
successful anywhere it has been tried. And remember the lost
200 millions souls. A good place to start looking would be
the current situation in Venezuela.
_______________________________________________
users mailing list -- users(a)lists.fedoraproject.org
To unsubscribe send an email to users-leave(a)lists.fedoraproject.org
Fedora Code of Conduct: https://getfedora.org/code-of-conduct.html
List Guidelines: https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Mailing_list_guidelines
List Archives: https://lists.fedoraproject.org/archives/list/users@lists.
fedoraproject.org
"
2:24 a.m.
New subject: WAY OFF TOPIC ( Was: OT: IBM to buy RedHat)
Everybody know now, that IBM is about buy RedHat.
So, let's see what happens. Just leave this cap vs sos
discussion to political forums, right?
Jarmo
4:40 a.m.
Hi ToddandMargo,
I don't want to get into a political argument, just point out to a couple
of things:
First: Venezuela is not socialist. Their government claimed to be, but
they weren't, they aren't and they won't be. If you want to point to a
communist government, there is North Korea (that nobody knows if they are
or not, because it's impossible to get in) and obviously the old USSR
(that already died). There's Cuba but they're slowly slipping from classic
communism. And China that is communist only in the name.
Second: Nazis and Soviets weren't the same, but you seem to put them in the
same box. Except in the mass murdering and pervasive propaganda. But those
are general features of totalitarian governments. Just to make it clearer,
Nazis were extreme right and Soviets were extreme left.
Third: Communism and Socialism are not the same.
Kind regards,
Silvia
On Mon, 29 Oct 2018 at 17:51, ToddAndMargo via users <
users(a)lists.fedoraproject.org> wrote:
On 10/29/18 4:17 AM, j.halifax2(a)seznam.cz wrote:
> Capitalism is not a good system because of a sum of locally optimal
> behaviors
> doesn't need to result in an optimum. Behavior of companies oriented for
> their
> maximal profit causes negative devastating nature, social tensions,
> devastating
> democracy, even criminal overthrowing legally elected governments,
murdering
> "inconvenient" politicians, mass corruption of politics, journalists and
> everybody
> who agrees to sell their influences to public opinion, even the wars
> initiated for
> fabricated reasons like "spreading the good and democracy" by means of
> shame-
> less lies in UN or mass murders and genocide done by the terrorists
> painted with
> "mendacious colors" of so called "refugees," corrupting snipers
for
> shooting the
> demonstrating people of the both sides etc. Totally wrong !
"Capitalism" is an economic vehicle, not an economic system.
Socialists use it extensively, mainly to fund their horrible
war machines -- the Soviets and the Nazis for instance.
Socialism only works on paper and requires the barrel of gun
to force others to produce when they do not get to see the
fruits of their labor. And keep in mind that Socialists
have cost humanity over 200 million souls in the past
decade alone.
The "free free market" on the other hand, if you do not meet
the needs of your customers, you fail. Sure, folks can cheat,
but they only get away with it for so long. Under the free market,
the only way to achieve maximum profit is keep your customers happy.
I live it and breath it every day of my life.
One of the few proper usages of government is to make sure folks
don't cheat (monopolies, etc.). But even without this, monopolies
do eventually fail anyway -- it just takes longer. Microsoft,
who does cheat, will feel the full force of this eventually.
Do not be fooled by flowery, utopian descriptions of Socialism
in college text books. Look around you. It has never been
successful anywhere it has been tried. And remember the lost
200 millions souls. A good place to start looking would be
the current situation in Venezuela.
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2:20 p.m.
On 10/30/18 2:40 AM, Frau Silvia Sánchez wrote:
Hi ToddandMargo,
I don't want to get into a political argument, just point out to a
couple of things:
First: Venezuela is not socialist. Their government claimed to be, but
they weren't, they aren't and they won't be.
They are trying to be and the result is what is expected. That you
do not like the outcome, does not make them any less socialist.
Good Socialists only exist on paper. They have NEVER been able to
implement it.
Second: Nazis and Soviets weren't the same, but you seem to put
them in
the same box. Except in the mass murdering and pervasive propaganda.
But those are general features of totalitarian governments. Just to
make it clearer, Nazis were extreme right and Soviets were
extreme left.
Actually they are two sides of the same coin.
National Socialist (Nazi) is based on the teachings of Karl Marx.
“National socialism derives from each of two camps the
pure idea that characterises it: National resolution from
bourgeois tradition; vital, creative socialism from the
teaching of Marxism.” -- Hitler, [January, 1934] Schoenbaum, p.57
The Nazis are FLAMING LEFTISTS, not right wingers. They only became
Right Wingers when General Patton's rolled into the concentration
camps and the press arrives with him and those horrible pictures
where presented to the world. And the Left was extremely embarrassed.
Calling them right wingers is the twist of the propagandists tongue.
I can't wait to hear the Soviets being called Right wingers when
Russia FINALLY comes to grips with the Soviet terror and details
start pouring out.
Think it through. The Right believes in limited government
and the rights of the individual. The Left believes in the
supremacy of the state over the individual. The Nazis
lived and acted like socialists. It was massive government
and no rights to the individual.
Both are the extreme Left and tragic example of what
socialism devolved into.
I know folks that have lived under both the Nazis and the Soviets.
They stated to me that only difference was the language they spoke.
Third: Communism and Socialism are not the same.
They are variations of the same poison. Socialism never
worked anywhere it is tried. It requires the force of the
barrel of a gun to get A to give up the fruits of his labors
to B. And A will only do it once and become B to protect
himself. This is why Socialism always results in poverty
and despotism.
The argument that failed Socialists are not real Socialist
or are Right Wingers and that you should keep trying to repeat
what does not work over and over and over has is is still
having tragic consequences on humanity. Again, Venezuela is
a tragic example of what doesn't work being forced down the
throats of others. "Oh they were not 'real' socialists" because
to did not work out they way it was laid out on paper.
It is time for us to all learn from history and not relive
it. 200 million souls IS ENOUGH.
The alternative is the Free Market, where you are forced to
take care of your customer to meet your own needs. And yes,
it is not perfect. Folks do cheat all the time. Microsoft
for example.
So here is a thought. Use the legitimate power of government
to protect one citizen from another and force the free market
down the throats of the cheaters. M$ should have been broken
up into several companies. Beats the hell out of poverty and
tyranny.
I hope Fedora makes it through the IBM purchase. I am a
YUGE fan of Fedora.
Kind regards,
Silvia
8:33 a.m.
New subject: OT: IBM to buy RedHat Comment on IBM Side
Can put a personnel opinion on IBM side of this.
My College became a part of the IBM academic initiative program 5+ years
ago. They provided the service we used free of charge.
My College has a 12 year old mini system that had 256M of Ram and 24G of
disk with a single CPU and was two major versions out of date, since the
hardware didn't support either version 6 or 7 of the OS.
The program had a system in Arizonia that we could access via the internet,
and it had 48 CPUs, 2TB of Ram at the beginning and think it was like
2048TB of disk. Also, had all the lastest software available on the system.
There were already 63 other colleges and universities in the program. Got
connected via a friend in a Star Trek fan club (Chase Masterson), and it was
a simple phone call to get the setup. They were very helpful, and always
worked to make the system as best they could.
Know the main goal of IBM is to make money, and be a big player in the field,
but they seem to see the benefit of supporting the community. I can only
hope that the Fedora will continue with the same or even more support.
Know they had a Linux option as well, that run on the mini, but being a
community college, didn't have the vast range of courses or large number of
students.
Unfortunately, I retired last year, and neither the college or the other 3
instructors took up the torch. Don't know what they did with the Linux
program either. Had run Redhat 9 thru Fedora 24 before I retired. Was
planning on doing the upgrade to Fedora 25 last summer, but was told since
I wasn't teaching summer classes, I wasn't suppose to be on campus after
34+ years at the college. (Some kind of security issue that effected
everyone). Was scheduled to teach 7 classes the next semester, but without
access couldn't prepare the labs or servers to do the job right.
Hopefully, the IBM deal will make Linux a bigger issue. Colleges MIS is about
90% Windows only, and 10% with some Mac. All the linux was on my own.
+------------------------------------------------------------+
Michael D. Setzer II - Computer Science Instructor (Retired)
mailto:mikes@guam.net
mailto:msetzerii@gmail.com
Guam - Where America's Day Begins
G4L Disk Imaging Project maintainer
http://sourceforge.net/projects/g4l/
+------------------------------------------------------------+
http://setiathome.berkeley.edu (Original)
Number of Seti Units Returned: 19,471
Processing time: 32 years, 290 days, 12 hours, 58 minutes
(Total Hours: 287,489)
BOINC@HOME CREDITS
ROSETTA 66017044.517676 | ABC 16613838.513356
SETI 109639717.505894 | EINSTEIN 141605036.499240
9:14 a.m.
On Sun, Oct 28, 2018 at 11:56:45PM -0700, ToddAndMargo via users wrote:
On 10/28/18 10:18 PM, Tim via users wrote:
>On Sun, 2018-10-28 at 22:01 -0600, Chris Murphy wrote:
>>The reality is, Red Hat is a publicly traded company and there was
>>always a very good chance a big fish was going to come eat it,
>>because it was doing well. Anyway, the ultimate decision now is up to
>>Red Hat shareholders. Why would they say no though? They bought the
>>stock to make money, this is their big pay day.
>
>Ultimately, that's the horrible thing about capitalism. Things only
>exist for monetary reasons, they don't really exist to do what the
>product is for.
>
>And you can say it about anything. e.g. The commercial phone companies
>don't exist for people to be able to communicate (what their customers
>consider their primary purpose to be). They're there to make money and
>it really doesn't care how well the communications aspect of it works.
"Capitalism" is an insult term made up by Marxists to describe the
Free Market, which is "the free and open exchange of goods and
services between consenting parties". Under the Free Market, to meet
your
own needs, you must meet the the needs of your customers.
Your description of communications customers only caring about money
falls apart. If the service stinks, folks go elsewhere. As a
small businessman, I can tell you that if I do not meet the needs
of my customers, I STARVE. I live it and breath it. I am only
rewarded for meeting my customers needs.
Red Hat has every right to sell itself to IBM, as Lands' End had every
right to sell itself to Sears. And I have every right to look elsewhere
for someone else that will meet my needs.
I hope Fedora survives this. If not, someone else will pick up
the slack.
+1
I couldn't have put it better ..
Plus: AFAIK IBM is still heavily interested in Linux. [1]
IBM seems to know how to run a business. And they seem to make lots of
money with Linux. All this makes me hopeful that RedHat/Fedora becomes
more focused on users and customers. Simply because their new boss
says so ... :)
And the whole merger seems to make sense: Fedora with their new cloud
targeted Silverblue distro might connect well with IBM's Hybrid Cloud.
Before reading about the acquisition I was rather sure to overwrite my
installed Fedora with another Linux, before mid-2019, when Fedora's
image based upgrades will arrive as the default Fedora Workstation
OS. At least parts of this image based system will be read-write
protected as it is planned - IIUC - for the Silverblue image based
OS. I read the rpm-based Fedora system might still be available. But I
don't like to be surprised with immutable system parts on Linux, so
just to be on the safe side I planned a change in the months coming
...
With that acquisition tho' I'll wait a little and see. And I might
even wait a little longer before migrating somewhere else ...
Wolfgang
[1] https://lwn.net/Articles/567099/
10:12 a.m.
I feel as though I've been kicked in the back of the neck.....by Bruce Lee!
I don't presume to know the first thing about corporations, mergers, and
long term financials,.... And while Red Hat was a corporation per
se.....I've always loved Fedora for being different, for being the odd
distro that was backed by a major corporation ....but was still able to
support itself independently. Now? I'm just "leery". I don't know what
plans IBM has for their new found "toy".....& I'd rather not be
surprised
as others have said. So the question is:
Are there any .rpm-based distros that would make a good replacement for
Fedora?....
Heartbroken in the world of Open Source.
EGO II
On Mon, Oct 29, 2018, 11:05 AM Wolfgang Pfeiffer <roto(a)gmx.net> wrote:
On Sun, Oct 28, 2018 at 11:56:45PM -0700, ToddAndMargo via users
wrote:
>On 10/28/18 10:18 PM, Tim via users wrote:
>>On Sun, 2018-10-28 at 22:01 -0600, Chris Murphy wrote:
>>>The reality is, Red Hat is a publicly traded company and there was
>>>always a very good chance a big fish was going to come eat it,
>>>because it was doing well. Anyway, the ultimate decision now is up to
>>>Red Hat shareholders. Why would they say no though? They bought the
>>>stock to make money, this is their big pay day.
>>
>>Ultimately, that's the horrible thing about capitalism. Things only
>>exist for monetary reasons, they don't really exist to do what the
>>product is for.
>>
>>And you can say it about anything. e.g. The commercial phone companies
>>don't exist for people to be able to communicate (what their customers
>>consider their primary purpose to be). They're there to make money and
>>it really doesn't care how well the communications aspect of it works.
>
>"Capitalism" is an insult term made up by Marxists to describe the
>Free Market, which is "the free and open exchange of goods and
>services between consenting parties". Under the Free Market, to meet
>your
>own needs, you must meet the the needs of your customers.
>
>Your description of communications customers only caring about money
>falls apart. If the service stinks, folks go elsewhere. As a
>small businessman, I can tell you that if I do not meet the needs
>of my customers, I STARVE. I live it and breath it. I am only
>rewarded for meeting my customers needs.
>
>Red Hat has every right to sell itself to IBM, as Lands' End had every
>right to sell itself to Sears. And I have every right to look elsewhere
>for someone else that will meet my needs.
>
>I hope Fedora survives this. If not, someone else will pick up
>the slack.
+1
I couldn't have put it better ..
Plus: AFAIK IBM is still heavily interested in Linux. [1]
IBM seems to know how to run a business. And they seem to make lots of
money with Linux. All this makes me hopeful that RedHat/Fedora becomes
more focused on users and customers. Simply because their new boss
says so ... :)
And the whole merger seems to make sense: Fedora with their new cloud
targeted Silverblue distro might connect well with IBM's Hybrid Cloud.
Before reading about the acquisition I was rather sure to overwrite my
installed Fedora with another Linux, before mid-2019, when Fedora's
image based upgrades will arrive as the default Fedora Workstation
OS. At least parts of this image based system will be read-write
protected as it is planned - IIUC - for the Silverblue image based
OS. I read the rpm-based Fedora system might still be available. But I
don't like to be surprised with immutable system parts on Linux, so
just to be on the safe side I planned a change in the months coming
...
With that acquisition tho' I'll wait a little and see. And I might
even wait a little longer before migrating somewhere else ...
Wolfgang
[1] https://lwn.net/Articles/567099/
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12:02 p.m.
On 10/29/18 8:12 AM, Eddie O'Connor wrote:
I feel as though I've been kicked in the back of the neck.....by
Bruce
Lee! I don't presume to know the first thing about corporations,
mergers, and long term financials,.... And while Red Hat was a
corporation per se.....I've always loved Fedora for being different, for
being the odd distro that was backed by a major corporation ....but was
still able to support itself independently. Now? I'm just "leery". I
don't know what plans IBM has for their new found "toy".....& I'd
rather
not be surprised as others have said. So the question is:
Are there any .rpm-based distros that would make a good replacement for
Fedora?....
Heartbroken in the world of Open Source.
EGO II
Wonderfully stated. The announcement took my breath away. I hope
Fedora gets spun off.
12:59 p.m.
On October 29, 2018 5:16:33 PM UTC, Dave Stevens <geek(a)uniserve.com> wrote:
On Mon, 29 Oct 2018 10:02:32 -0700
ToddAndMargo via users <users(a)lists.fedoraproject.org> wrote:
> I hope
> Fedora gets spun off.
forked?
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If IBM decides to stop supporting Fedora then there'd have to be a fork, unless they
assign trademarks. What's the contribution mix look like from redhat vs non-redhat?
What's the monetary support look like? That'll determine the viability of a fork.
--Josh
--
Sent from my Android device with K-9 Mail. Please excuse my brevity.
1:41 p.m.
On Mon, 29 Oct 2018 10:02:32 -0700 ToddAndMargo via users
<users(a)lists.fedoraproject.org> wrote:
On 10/29/18 8:12 AM, Eddie O'Connor wrote:
> I feel as though I've been kicked in the back of the neck.....by Bruce
> Lee! I don't presume to know the first thing about corporations,
> mergers, and long term financials,.... And while Red Hat was a
> corporation per se.....I've always loved Fedora for being different, for
> being the odd distro that was backed by a major corporation ....but was
> still able to support itself independently. Now? I'm just "leery". I
> don't know what plans IBM has for their new found "toy".....&
I'd rather
> not be surprised as others have said. So the question is:
> Are there any .rpm-based distros that would make a good replacement for
> Fedora?....
>
> Heartbroken in the world of Open Source.
>
> EGO II
Wonderfully stated. The announcement took my breath away. I hope
Fedora gets spun off.
Unlike the IBM of today, Redhat was not really your average capitalist enterprise so they
supported Fedora. They had a long view which is not permitted by markets.....In any case,
I doubt that Fedora or OSS is an example of any kind of capitalism. A good place to start
looking for that would be Somalia.
--
Important Notice: This mailbox is ignored: e-mails are set to be deleted on receipt.
Please respond to the mailing list if appropriate. For those needing to send personal or
professional e-mail, please use appropriate addresses.
2:10 p.m.
I just hope that Fedora does not become one of those garage distributions.
On 10/29/18 6:41 PM, Ranjan Maitra wrote:
On Mon, 29 Oct 2018 10:02:32 -0700 ToddAndMargo via users
<users(a)lists.fedoraproject.org> wrote:
> On 10/29/18 8:12 AM, Eddie O'Connor wrote:
>> I feel as though I've been kicked in the back of the neck.....by Bruce
>> Lee! I don't presume to know the first thing about corporations,
>> mergers, and long term financials,.... And while Red Hat was a
>> corporation per se.....I've always loved Fedora for being different, for
>> being the odd distro that was backed by a major corporation ....but was
>> still able to support itself independently. Now? I'm just "leery".
I
>> don't know what plans IBM has for their new found "toy".....&
I'd rather
>> not be surprised as others have said. So the question is:
>> Are there any .rpm-based distros that would make a good replacement for
>> Fedora?....
>>
>> Heartbroken in the world of Open Source.
>>
>> EGO II
> Wonderfully stated. The announcement took my breath away. I hope
> Fedora gets spun off.
Unlike the IBM of today, Redhat was not really your average capitalist enterprise so they
supported Fedora. They had a long view which is not permitted by markets.....In any case,
I doubt that Fedora or OSS is an example of any kind of capitalism. A good place to start
looking for that would be Somalia.
6:26 p.m.
On 10/29/18 11:41 AM, Ranjan Maitra wrote:
On Mon, 29 Oct 2018 10:02:32 -0700 ToddAndMargo via users
<users(a)lists.fedoraproject.org> wrote:
> On 10/29/18 8:12 AM, Eddie O'Connor wrote:
>> I feel as though I've been kicked in the back of the neck.....by Bruce
>> Lee! I don't presume to know the first thing about corporations,
>> mergers, and long term financials,.... And while Red Hat was a
>> corporation per se.....I've always loved Fedora for being different, for
>> being the odd distro that was backed by a major corporation ....but was
>> still able to support itself independently. Now? I'm just "leery".
I
>> don't know what plans IBM has for their new found "toy".....&
I'd rather
>> not be surprised as others have said. So the question is:
>> Are there any .rpm-based distros that would make a good replacement for
>> Fedora?....
>>
>> Heartbroken in the world of Open Source.
>>
>> EGO II
>
> Wonderfully stated. The announcement took my breath away. I hope
> Fedora gets spun off.
Unlike the IBM of today, Redhat was not really your average capitalist enterprise so they
supported Fedora. They had a long view which is not permitted by markets.....In any case,
I doubt that Fedora or OSS is an example of any kind of capitalism. A good place to start
looking for that would be Somalia.
Uhhhh. Red Hat uses Fedora as a testing ground for RHEL. RHEL is
basically a defunct, bug frozen version of Fedora. Red Hat gets
a ton of benefit from Fedora.
The big question is how will IBM look at it. RHEL is pretty much
unusable for newer software as RHEL is so bug riddled and out of date.
IBM may just dump RHEL and there goes Fedora. Maybe IBM will come
up with its own version of an enterprise distribution and keep
using Fedora for its testing ground as well.
Here is hoping!
6:31 p.m.
yep i hope so, fingerscrossed ;)
On 10/29/18 11:26 PM, ToddAndMargo via users wrote:
> Maybe IBM will come
> up with its own version of an enterprise distribution and keep
> using Fedora for its testing ground as well.
8:30 p.m.
On Mon, Oct 29, 2018 at 04:26:46PM -0700, ToddAndMargo via users wrote:
On 10/29/18 11:41 AM, Ranjan Maitra wrote:
>On Mon, 29 Oct 2018 10:02:32 -0700 ToddAndMargo via users
<users(a)lists.fedoraproject.org> wrote:
>
>>On 10/29/18 8:12 AM, Eddie O'Connor wrote:
>>>I feel as though I've been kicked in the back of the neck.....by Bruce
>>>Lee! I don't presume to know the first thing about corporations,
>>>mergers, and long term financials,.... And while Red Hat was a
>>>corporation per se.....I've always loved Fedora for being different, for
>>>being the odd distro that was backed by a major corporation ....but was
>>>still able to support itself independently. Now? I'm just
"leery". I
>>>don't know what plans IBM has for their new found
"toy".....& I'd rather
>>>not be surprised as others have said. So the question is:
>>>Are there any .rpm-based distros that would make a good replacement for
>>>Fedora?....
>>>
>>>Heartbroken in the world of Open Source.
>>>
>>>EGO II
>>
>>Wonderfully stated. The announcement took my breath away. I hope
>>Fedora gets spun off.
>
>Unlike the IBM of today, Redhat was not really your average capitalist enterprise so
they supported Fedora. They had a long view which is not permitted by markets.....In any
case, I doubt that Fedora or OSS is an example of any kind of capitalism. A good place to
start looking for that would be Somalia.
Uhhhh. Red Hat uses Fedora as a testing ground for RHEL. RHEL is
basically a defunct, bug frozen version of Fedora. Red Hat gets
a ton of benefit from Fedora.
The big question is how will IBM look at it. RHEL is pretty much
unusable for newer software as RHEL is so bug riddled and out of
date.
Don't know why you think RHEL is bug riddled. it's stable and
will run for years.
Some of us (many businesses) don't want a new version of Linux every six
months, they want systems that will be stable and will run for years
with nothing more than the occasional yum update and more occasional
reboot. People with many computers can't spend time reinstalling and
re-configuring all of them once or twice every year. And I don't want
to do that with my home systems either. I want something I can use
for 2 or 3 years, at least, before enduring the reinstall pain again.
They may use what appears to be an old kernel, but RH does backports
of many modern features and bug fixes.
IBM may just dump RHEL and there goes Fedora. Maybe IBM will come
up with its own version of an enterprise distribution and keep
using Fedora for its testing ground as well.
Here is hoping!
--
---- Fred Smith -- fredex(a)fcshome.stoneham.ma.us -----------------------------
The eyes of the Lord are everywhere,
keeping watch on the wicked and the good.
----------------------------- Proverbs 15:3 (niv) -----------------------------
10:31 p.m.
On 10/29/18 6:30 PM, Fred Smith wrote:
On Mon, Oct 29, 2018 at 04:26:46PM -0700, ToddAndMargo via users
wrote:
> On 10/29/18 11:41 AM, Ranjan Maitra wrote:
>> On Mon, 29 Oct 2018 10:02:32 -0700 ToddAndMargo via users
<users(a)lists.fedoraproject.org> wrote:
>>
>>> On 10/29/18 8:12 AM, Eddie O'Connor wrote:
>>>> I feel as though I've been kicked in the back of the neck.....by
Bruce
>>>> Lee! I don't presume to know the first thing about corporations,
>>>> mergers, and long term financials,.... And while Red Hat was a
>>>> corporation per se.....I've always loved Fedora for being different,
for
>>>> being the odd distro that was backed by a major corporation ....but was
>>>> still able to support itself independently. Now? I'm just
"leery". I
>>>> don't know what plans IBM has for their new found
"toy".....& I'd rather
>>>> not be surprised as others have said. So the question is:
>>>> Are there any .rpm-based distros that would make a good replacement for
>>>> Fedora?....
>>>>
>>>> Heartbroken in the world of Open Source.
>>>>
>>>> EGO II
>>> Wonderfully stated. The announcement took my breath away. I hope
>>> Fedora gets spun off.
>> Unlike the IBM of today, Redhat was not really your average capitalist enterprise
so they supported Fedora. They had a long view which is not permitted by markets.....In
any case, I doubt that Fedora or OSS is an example of any kind of capitalism. A good place
to start looking for that would be Somalia.
>
> Uhhhh. Red Hat uses Fedora as a testing ground for RHEL. RHEL is
> basically a defunct, bug frozen version of Fedora. Red Hat gets
> a ton of benefit from Fedora.
>
> The big question is how will IBM look at it. RHEL is pretty much
> unusable for newer software as RHEL is so bug riddled and out of
> date.
Don't know why you think RHEL is bug riddled. it's stable and
will run for years.
Some of us (many businesses) don't want a new version of Linux every six
months, they want systems that will be stable and will run for years
with nothing more than the occasional yum update and more occasional
reboot. People with many computers can't spend time reinstalling and
re-configuring all of them once or twice every year. And I don't want
to do that with my home systems either. I want something I can use
for 2 or 3 years, at least, before enduring the reinstall pain again.
They may use what appears to be an old kernel, but RH does backports
of many modern features and bug fixes.
+1
11:14 p.m.
On 10/29/18 8:31 PM, Richard England wrote:
On 10/29/18 6:30 PM, Fred Smith wrote:
> On Mon, Oct 29, 2018 at 04:26:46PM -0700, ToddAndMargo via users wrote:
>> On 10/29/18 11:41 AM, Ranjan Maitra wrote:
>>> On Mon, 29 Oct 2018 10:02:32 -0700 ToddAndMargo via users
>>> <users(a)lists.fedoraproject.org> wrote:
>>>
>>>> On 10/29/18 8:12 AM, Eddie O'Connor wrote:
>>>>> I feel as though I've been kicked in the back of the neck.....by
>>>>> Bruce
>>>>> Lee! I don't presume to know the first thing about corporations,
>>>>> mergers, and long term financials,.... And while Red Hat was a
>>>>> corporation per se.....I've always loved Fedora for being
>>>>> different, for
>>>>> being the odd distro that was backed by a major corporation
>>>>> ....but was
>>>>> still able to support itself independently. Now? I'm just
"leery". I
>>>>> don't know what plans IBM has for their new found
"toy".....& I'd
>>>>> rather
>>>>> not be surprised as others have said. So the question is:
>>>>> Are there any .rpm-based distros that would make a good
>>>>> replacement for
>>>>> Fedora?....
>>>>>
>>>>> Heartbroken in the world of Open Source.
>>>>>
>>>>> EGO II
>>>> Wonderfully stated. The announcement took my breath away. I hope
>>>> Fedora gets spun off.
>>> Unlike the IBM of today, Redhat was not really your average
>>> capitalist enterprise so they supported Fedora. They had a long view
>>> which is not permitted by markets.....In any case, I doubt that
>>> Fedora or OSS is an example of any kind of capitalism. A good place
>>> to start looking for that would be Somalia.
>>
>> Uhhhh. Red Hat uses Fedora as a testing ground for RHEL. RHEL is
>> basically a defunct, bug frozen version of Fedora. Red Hat gets
>> a ton of benefit from Fedora.
>>
>> The big question is how will IBM look at it. RHEL is pretty much
>> unusable for newer software as RHEL is so bug riddled and out of
>> date.
> Don't know why you think RHEL is bug riddled. it's stable and
> will run for years.
>
> Some of us (many businesses) don't want a new version of Linux every six
> months, they want systems that will be stable and will run for years
> with nothing more than the occasional yum update and more occasional
> reboot. People with many computers can't spend time reinstalling and
> re-configuring all of them once or twice every year. And I don't want
> to do that with my home systems either. I want something I can use
> for 2 or 3 years, at least, before enduring the reinstall pain again.
>
> They may use what appears to be an old kernel, but RH does backports
> of many modern features and bug fixes.
>
+1
Why are you using Fedora?
12:19 a.m.
On 10/29/2018 09:14 PM, ToddAndMargo via users wrote:
On 10/29/18 8:31 PM, Richard England wrote:
> On 10/29/18 6:30 PM, Fred Smith wrote:
>> On Mon, Oct 29, 2018 at 04:26:46PM -0700, ToddAndMargo via users wrote:
>>> On 10/29/18 11:41 AM, Ranjan Maitra wrote:
>>>> On Mon, 29 Oct 2018 10:02:32 -0700 ToddAndMargo via users
>>>> <users(a)lists.fedoraproject.org> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> On 10/29/18 8:12 AM, Eddie O'Connor wrote:
>>>>>> I feel as though I've been kicked in the back of the
neck.....by
>>>>>> Bruce
>>>>>> Lee! I don't presume to know the first thing about
corporations,
>>>>>> mergers, and long term financials,.... And while Red Hat was a
>>>>>> corporation per se.....I've always loved Fedora for being
>>>>>> different, for
>>>>>> being the odd distro that was backed by a major corporation
>>>>>> ....but was
>>>>>> still able to support itself independently. Now? I'm just
>>>>>> "leery". I
>>>>>> don't know what plans IBM has for their new found
"toy".....&
>>>>>> I'd rather
>>>>>> not be surprised as others have said. So the question is:
>>>>>> Are there any .rpm-based distros that would make a good
>>>>>> replacement for
>>>>>> Fedora?....
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Heartbroken in the world of Open Source.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> EGO II
>>>>> Wonderfully stated. The announcement took my breath away. I hope
>>>>> Fedora gets spun off.
>>>> Unlike the IBM of today, Redhat was not really your average
>>>> capitalist enterprise so they supported Fedora. They had a long
>>>> view which is not permitted by markets.....In any case, I doubt
>>>> that Fedora or OSS is an example of any kind of capitalism. A good
>>>> place to start looking for that would be Somalia.
>>>
>>> Uhhhh. Red Hat uses Fedora as a testing ground for RHEL. RHEL is
>>> basically a defunct, bug frozen version of Fedora. Red Hat gets
>>> a ton of benefit from Fedora.
>>>
>>> The big question is how will IBM look at it. RHEL is pretty much
>>> unusable for newer software as RHEL is so bug riddled and out of
>>> date.
>> Don't know why you think RHEL is bug riddled. it's stable and
>> will run for years.
>>
>> Some of us (many businesses) don't want a new version of Linux every
>> six
>> months, they want systems that will be stable and will run for years
>> with nothing more than the occasional yum update and more occasional
>> reboot. People with many computers can't spend time reinstalling and
>> re-configuring all of them once or twice every year. And I don't want
>> to do that with my home systems either. I want something I can use
>> for 2 or 3 years, at least, before enduring the reinstall pain again.
>>
>> They may use what appears to be an old kernel, but RH does backports
>> of many modern features and bug fixes.
>>
> +1
Why are you using Fedora?
ToddAndMargo:
Using/watching what Fedora is doing is a good way to prepare for what
might be coming in RHEL/Centos
Paul
1:25 a.m.
On 10/29/18 10:19 PM, Paul Allen Newell wrote:
On 10/29/2018 09:14 PM, ToddAndMargo via users wrote:
> On 10/29/18 8:31 PM, Richard England wrote:
>> On 10/29/18 6:30 PM, Fred Smith wrote:
>>> On Mon, Oct 29, 2018 at 04:26:46PM -0700, ToddAndMargo via users wrote:
>>>> On 10/29/18 11:41 AM, Ranjan Maitra wrote:
>>>>> On Mon, 29 Oct 2018 10:02:32 -0700 ToddAndMargo via users
>>>>> <users(a)lists.fedoraproject.org> wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>> On 10/29/18 8:12 AM, Eddie O'Connor wrote:
>>>>>>> I feel as though I've been kicked in the back of the
neck.....by
>>>>>>> Bruce
>>>>>>> Lee! I don't presume to know the first thing about
corporations,
>>>>>>> mergers, and long term financials,.... And while Red Hat was
a
>>>>>>> corporation per se.....I've always loved Fedora for being
>>>>>>> different, for
>>>>>>> being the odd distro that was backed by a major corporation
>>>>>>> ....but was
>>>>>>> still able to support itself independently. Now? I'm just
>>>>>>> "leery". I
>>>>>>> don't know what plans IBM has for their new found
"toy".....&
>>>>>>> I'd rather
>>>>>>> not be surprised as others have said. So the question is:
>>>>>>> Are there any .rpm-based distros that would make a good
>>>>>>> replacement for
>>>>>>> Fedora?....
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Heartbroken in the world of Open Source.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> EGO II
>>>>>> Wonderfully stated. The announcement took my breath away. I
hope
>>>>>> Fedora gets spun off.
>>>>> Unlike the IBM of today, Redhat was not really your average
>>>>> capitalist enterprise so they supported Fedora. They had a long
>>>>> view which is not permitted by markets.....In any case, I doubt
>>>>> that Fedora or OSS is an example of any kind of capitalism. A good
>>>>> place to start looking for that would be Somalia.
>>>>
>>>> Uhhhh. Red Hat uses Fedora as a testing ground for RHEL. RHEL is
>>>> basically a defunct, bug frozen version of Fedora. Red Hat gets
>>>> a ton of benefit from Fedora.
>>>>
>>>> The big question is how will IBM look at it. RHEL is pretty much
>>>> unusable for newer software as RHEL is so bug riddled and out of
>>>> date.
>>> Don't know why you think RHEL is bug riddled. it's stable and
>>> will run for years.
>>>
>>> Some of us (many businesses) don't want a new version of Linux every
>>> six
>>> months, they want systems that will be stable and will run for years
>>> with nothing more than the occasional yum update and more occasional
>>> reboot. People with many computers can't spend time reinstalling and
>>> re-configuring all of them once or twice every year. And I don't want
>>> to do that with my home systems either. I want something I can use
>>> for 2 or 3 years, at least, before enduring the reinstall pain again.
>>>
>>> They may use what appears to be an old kernel, but RH does backports
>>> of many modern features and bug fixes.
>>>
>> +1
>
> Why are you using Fedora?
>
ToddAndMargo:
Using/watching what Fedora is doing is a good way to prepare for what
might be coming in RHEL/Centos
Paul
Hi Paul,
Back when I was using RHEL and Clones, I use to say "What goes
on in Fedora, eventually winds up in RHEL."
:-)
-T
12:10 p.m.
On 10/29/18 11:25 PM, ToddAndMargo via users wrote:
On 10/29/18 10:19 PM, Paul Allen Newell wrote:
>
>
> On 10/29/2018 09:14 PM, ToddAndMargo via users wrote:
>> On 10/29/18 8:31 PM, Richard England wrote:
>>> On 10/29/18 6:30 PM, Fred Smith wrote:
>>>> On Mon, Oct 29, 2018 at 04:26:46PM -0700, ToddAndMargo via users
>>>> wrote:
>>>>> On 10/29/18 11:41 AM, Ranjan Maitra wrote:
>>>>>> On Mon, 29 Oct 2018 10:02:32 -0700 ToddAndMargo via users
>>>>>> <users(a)lists.fedoraproject.org> wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> On 10/29/18 8:12 AM, Eddie O'Connor wrote:
>>>>>>>> I feel as though I've been kicked in the back of
the
>>>>>>>> neck.....by Bruce
>>>>>>>> Lee! I don't presume to know the first thing about
corporations,
>>>>>>>> mergers, and long term financials,.... And while Red Hat
was a
>>>>>>>> corporation per se.....I've always loved Fedora for
being
>>>>>>>> different, for
>>>>>>>> being the odd distro that was backed by a major
corporation
>>>>>>>> ....but was
>>>>>>>> still able to support itself independently. Now? I'm
just
>>>>>>>> "leery". I
>>>>>>>> don't know what plans IBM has for their new found
"toy".....&
>>>>>>>> I'd rather
>>>>>>>> not be surprised as others have said. So the question
is:
>>>>>>>> Are there any .rpm-based distros that would make a good
>>>>>>>> replacement for
>>>>>>>> Fedora?....
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Heartbroken in the world of Open Source.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> EGO II
>>>>>>> Wonderfully stated. The announcement took my breath away. I
hope
>>>>>>> Fedora gets spun off.
>>>>>> Unlike the IBM of today, Redhat was not really your average
>>>>>> capitalist enterprise so they supported Fedora. They had a long
>>>>>> view which is not permitted by markets.....In any case, I doubt
>>>>>> that Fedora or OSS is an example of any kind of capitalism. A
>>>>>> good place to start looking for that would be Somalia.
>>>>>
>>>>> Uhhhh. Red Hat uses Fedora as a testing ground for RHEL. RHEL is
>>>>> basically a defunct, bug frozen version of Fedora. Red Hat gets
>>>>> a ton of benefit from Fedora.
>>>>>
>>>>> The big question is how will IBM look at it. RHEL is pretty much
>>>>> unusable for newer software as RHEL is so bug riddled and out of
>>>>> date.
>>>> Don't know why you think RHEL is bug riddled. it's stable and
>>>> will run for years.
>>>>
>>>> Some of us (many businesses) don't want a new version of Linux
>>>> every six
>>>> months, they want systems that will be stable and will run for years
>>>> with nothing more than the occasional yum update and more occasional
>>>> reboot. People with many computers can't spend time reinstalling
and
>>>> re-configuring all of them once or twice every year. And I don't
want
>>>> to do that with my home systems either. I want something I can use
>>>> for 2 or 3 years, at least, before enduring the reinstall pain again.
>>>>
>>>> They may use what appears to be an old kernel, but RH does backports
>>>> of many modern features and bug fixes.
>>>>
>>> +1
>>
>> Why are you using Fedora?
>>
>
> ToddAndMargo:
>
> Using/watching what Fedora is doing is a good way to prepare for what
> might be coming in RHEL/Centos
>
> Paul
Hi Paul,
Back when I was using RHEL and Clones, I use to say "What goes
on in Fedora, eventually winds up in RHEL."
Technically, at some point a specific Fedora BECOMES the next RHEL
(and eventually CentOS) release. IIRC, Fedora 18 got frozen and
became RHEL/CentOS 7. That's what I mean about Fedora being essentially
Beta versions of RHEL.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
- Rick Stevens, Systems Engineer, AllDigital ricks(a)alldigital.com -
- AIM/Skype: therps2 ICQ: 226437340 Yahoo: origrps2 -
- -
- Blessed be the peacekeepers, for they shall be shot at from -
- both sides. -
- -- A.M. Greeley -
----------------------------------------------------------------------
2:21 p.m.
On 10/30/18 10:10 AM, Rick Stevens wrote:
On 10/29/18 11:25 PM, ToddAndMargo via users wrote:
> On 10/29/18 10:19 PM, Paul Allen Newell wrote:
>>
>>
>> On 10/29/2018 09:14 PM, ToddAndMargo via users wrote:
>>> On 10/29/18 8:31 PM, Richard England wrote:
>>>> On 10/29/18 6:30 PM, Fred Smith wrote:
>>>>> On Mon, Oct 29, 2018 at 04:26:46PM -0700, ToddAndMargo via users
>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>> On 10/29/18 11:41 AM, Ranjan Maitra wrote:
>>>>>>> On Mon, 29 Oct 2018 10:02:32 -0700 ToddAndMargo via users
>>>>>>> <users(a)lists.fedoraproject.org> wrote:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> On 10/29/18 8:12 AM, Eddie O'Connor wrote:
>>>>>>>>> I feel as though I've been kicked in the back of
the
>>>>>>>>> neck.....by Bruce
>>>>>>>>> Lee! I don't presume to know the first thing
about corporations,
>>>>>>>>> mergers, and long term financials,.... And while Red
Hat was a
>>>>>>>>> corporation per se.....I've always loved Fedora
for being
>>>>>>>>> different, for
>>>>>>>>> being the odd distro that was backed by a major
corporation
>>>>>>>>> ....but was
>>>>>>>>> still able to support itself independently. Now?
I'm just
>>>>>>>>> "leery". I
>>>>>>>>> don't know what plans IBM has for their new found
"toy".....&
>>>>>>>>> I'd rather
>>>>>>>>> not be surprised as others have said. So the question
is:
>>>>>>>>> Are there any .rpm-based distros that would make a
good
>>>>>>>>> replacement for
>>>>>>>>> Fedora?....
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Heartbroken in the world of Open Source.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> EGO II
>>>>>>>> Wonderfully stated. The announcement took my breath
away. I hope
>>>>>>>> Fedora gets spun off.
>>>>>>> Unlike the IBM of today, Redhat was not really your average
>>>>>>> capitalist enterprise so they supported Fedora. They had a
long
>>>>>>> view which is not permitted by markets.....In any case, I
doubt
>>>>>>> that Fedora or OSS is an example of any kind of capitalism.
A
>>>>>>> good place to start looking for that would be Somalia.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Uhhhh. Red Hat uses Fedora as a testing ground for RHEL. RHEL
is
>>>>>> basically a defunct, bug frozen version of Fedora. Red Hat gets
>>>>>> a ton of benefit from Fedora.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> The big question is how will IBM look at it. RHEL is pretty
much
>>>>>> unusable for newer software as RHEL is so bug riddled and out of
>>>>>> date.
>>>>> Don't know why you think RHEL is bug riddled. it's stable
and
>>>>> will run for years.
>>>>>
>>>>> Some of us (many businesses) don't want a new version of Linux
>>>>> every six
>>>>> months, they want systems that will be stable and will run for years
>>>>> with nothing more than the occasional yum update and more occasional
>>>>> reboot. People with many computers can't spend time reinstalling
and
>>>>> re-configuring all of them once or twice every year. And I don't
want
>>>>> to do that with my home systems either. I want something I can use
>>>>> for 2 or 3 years, at least, before enduring the reinstall pain
again.
>>>>>
>>>>> They may use what appears to be an old kernel, but RH does backports
>>>>> of many modern features and bug fixes.
>>>>>
>>>> +1
>>>
>>> Why are you using Fedora?
>>>
>>
>> ToddAndMargo:
>>
>> Using/watching what Fedora is doing is a good way to prepare for what
>> might be coming in RHEL/Centos
>>
>> Paul
>
> Hi Paul,
>
> Back when I was using RHEL and Clones, I use to say "What goes
> on in Fedora, eventually winds up in RHEL."
Technically, at some point a specific Fedora BECOMES the next RHEL
(and eventually CentOS) release. IIRC, Fedora 18 got frozen and
became RHEL/CentOS 7. That's what I mean about Fedora being essentially
Beta versions of RHEL.
Exactly. And I knew what you meant. Sorry for any misunderstanding.
2:53 p.m.
On Mon, 29 Oct 2018 22:19:44 -0700
Paul Allen Newell <pnewell0705(a)gmail.com> wrote:
ToddAndMargo:
Using/watching what Fedora is doing is a good way to prepare for what
might be coming in RHEL/Centos
Paul
yes but not as good as a written roadmap
d
--
In modern fantasy (literary or governmental), killing people is the
usual solution to the so-called war between good and evil. My books are
not conceived in terms of such a war, and offer no simple answers to
simplistic questions.
----- Ursula Le Guin
3 p.m.
On 10/30/18 12:53 PM, Dave Stevens wrote:
On Mon, 29 Oct 2018 22:19:44 -0700
Paul Allen Newell <pnewell0705(a)gmail.com> wrote:
> ToddAndMargo:
>
> Using/watching what Fedora is doing is a good way to prepare for what
> might be coming in RHEL/Centos
>
> Paul
yes but not as good as a written roadmap
d
It is beyond me how Red Hat manages to so bugger up Fedora
when they convert it to RHEL.
If I were to speculate, I do believe it is the Open Source
economic model coming to play. You give away to software
and charge for the services. If you want something fixed,
you have to pay for it. Code Weaver and Wine is another
example of this. (Thank goodness for Wine Staging!)
And, if you can not afford to place Red Hat's or Code Weaver's
developers on your payroll, you are relegates to begging and
swearing or do it yourself if you have the chops.
I could be wrong.
4:12 p.m.
sooo.......
all left leaning dems... all we want is to have the gubment do
everything.. while we just suck off dat gov cheeze??
good lord dude.. what/where did you sprout from???
and if you think "fedora" is better than the os that msoft creates..
really??? guess it depends on what you consider "better"... but
flame wars are for people who have plenty of spare time...
On Tue, Oct 30, 2018 at 4:55 PM ToddAndMargo via users
<users(a)lists.fedoraproject.org> wrote:
>
> On 10/30/18 12:53 PM, Dave Stevens wrote:
> > On Mon, 29 Oct 2018 22:19:44 -0700
> > Paul Allen Newell <pnewell0705(a)gmail.com> wrote:
> >
> >> ToddAndMargo:
> >>
> >> Using/watching what Fedora is doing is a good way to prepare for what
> >> might be coming in RHEL/Centos
> >>
> >> Paul
> >
> > yes but not as good as a written roadmap
> >
> > d
> >
>
> It is beyond me how Red Hat manages to so bugger up Fedora
> when they convert it to RHEL.
>
> If I were to speculate, I do believe it is the Open Source
> economic model coming to play. You give away to software
> and charge for the services. If you want something fixed,
> you have to pay for it. Code Weaver and Wine is another
> example of this. (Thank goodness for Wine Staging!)
>
> And, if you can not afford to place Red Hat's or Code Weaver's
> developers on your payroll, you are relegates to begging and
> swearing or do it yourself if you have the chops.
>
> I could be wrong.
>
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> users mailing list -- users(a)lists.fedoraproject.org
> To unsubscribe send an email to users-leave(a)lists.fedoraproject.org
> Fedora Code of Conduct: https://getfedora.org/code-of-conduct.html
> List Guidelines: https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Mailing_list_guidelines
> List Archives:
https://lists.fedoraproject.org/archives/list/users@lists.fedoraproject.org
4:48 p.m.
On 10/30/18 2:12 PM, bruce wrote:
I am staying away from politics on the forum. Sufice
it to say, dems do like their cheese.
and if you think "fedora" is better than the os that msoft
creates..
really??? guess it depends on what you consider "better"...
I am IT support to small businesses. I mainly work on
Windows, so I get to compare Linux and Windows on a daily
basis. My own business is Linux based. I wish I had
more Linux clients, but ..
Fedora is technically superior to Windows in every respect.
Folks do not use it because M$ has son the application wars.
A small business can not run on Linux. It is what it is.
5:15 p.m.
On 20181030 14:48, ToddAndMargo via users wrote:
On 10/30/18 2:12 PM, bruce wrote:
I am staying away from politics on the forum. Sufice
it to say, dems do like their cheese.
> and if you think "fedora" is better than the os that msoft creates..
> really??? guess it depends on what you consider "better"...
I am IT support to small businesses. I mainly work on
Windows, so I get to compare Linux and Windows on a daily
basis. My own business is Linux based. I wish I had
more Linux clients, but ..
Fedora is technically superior to Windows in every respect.
Folks do not use it because M$ has son the application wars.
A small business can not run on Linux. It is what it is.
Not superior in many cases in the most important criterion of all.
Does it run the software you need to use? There are times the answer
to that question is a simple "no and likely won't for quite some
time to come." If you are a serious user then you pick the OS that
runs the software you want to use. If you are a computer hobbyist,
you can use whatever OS suits your fancy and find fun things to do
with it. For AV work Macs are arguably "the best" with Windows "not
bad" and Linux "pathetic at best", especially for live AV work.
Now, can we leave off the po1itics? We can wait and see what
happens. Starting off whining and whimpering simply buys stress
and problems over worries about something that may not happen and
over which you have no control. Yeah, I have worries. But, I have
a life to live so I am getting on with it. I just could not let
your calumny above ride. It was ill thought out.
{o.o}
5:37 p.m.
On 10/30/18 3:15 PM, jdow wrote:
Not superior in many cases in the most important criterion of all.
Does it run the software you need to use? There are times the answer
to that question is a simple "no and likely won't for quite some
time to come." If you are a serious user then you pick the OS that
runs the software you want to use. If you are a computer hobbyist,
you can use whatever OS suits your fancy and find fun things to do
with it. For AV work Macs are arguably "the best" with Windows "not
bad" and Linux "pathetic at best", especially for live AV work.
Exactly. It does not matter how technically superior an OS
is if it will not run the software you need. This is Linux's
downfall and why it has not been adopted more widely. It is
what it is.
I would not have a job if not for M$. M$ will go down in
the history of marketing as the company that managed to
sell "defective" ice makers to Eskimos.
Windows 10 causes my customers all kinds of trouble. But
they can do nothing about it.
5:47 p.m.
On Tue, 30 Oct 2018 15:37:39 -0700
ToddAndMargo via users <users(a)lists.fedoraproject.org> wrote:
Windows 10 causes my customers all kinds of trouble. But
they can do nothing about it.
why not run linux as a subsystem where it fits? They'd have quite a lot
of knowledge already about office(s) and browsers, those skills should
transfer ok.
Dave
--
In modern fantasy (literary or governmental), killing people is the
usual solution to the so-called war between good and evil. My books are
not conceived in terms of such a war, and offer no simple answers to
simplistic questions.
----- Ursula Le Guin
6:07 p.m.
On 10/30/18 3:47 PM, Dave Stevens wrote:
On Tue, 30 Oct 2018 15:37:39 -0700
ToddAndMargo via users <users(a)lists.fedoraproject.org> wrote:
> Windows 10 causes my customers all kinds of trouble. But
> they can do nothing about it.
why not run linux as a subsystem where it fits? They'd have quite a lot
of knowledge already about office(s) and browsers, those skills should
transfer ok.
Dave
Believe me. EVERYWHERE I can, I run it.
Fedora makes a great file server too.
I just quoted a lady who only wants a simple, off line computer
to run freecell. (The one you guys helped me with a great
collection of granny games.)
I have another elderly lady whose Dell will no longer operate
with Windows. Happens as the motherboard degrades. Put her
on Fedora 25 and she just runs and runs and runs. Had to
show her where the print button was on Thunderbird once and
had to install a new printer for her once too. Nothing
ever goes wrong.
What I find different supporting Linux and OSx (weird for
the sake of weirdness) over Windows is that with Linux and OSx
I am helping set up things and assisting with program usage.
I do the same with Windows, but I also spend a ton of
time on system and quality issues, not to mention junkware
and such.
I really hate putting together custom system with Windows
Nein, oops, Windows Ten. It is such utter junk. It is
what it is.
6:16 p.m.
On 10/30/18 4:07 PM, ToddAndMargo via users wrote:
What I find different supporting Linux and OSx (weird for
the sake of weirdness) over Windows is that with Linux and OSx
I am helping set up things and assisting with program usage.
Tip on OSx, carry your own mouse and a Live Fedora Stick.
Press the flower key when booting a live stick.
The artsy-fartsy mouse that ships with Macs drives
me nuts. Weird for the sake of weirdness.
Gnome is on the weird side, but Apple hardware
takes the cake. And I am constantly having to explain
to folks how to use OSx's weird task bar at the top.
6:45 p.m.
On 10/30/18 4:16 PM, ToddAndMargo via users wrote:
On 10/30/18 4:07 PM, ToddAndMargo via users wrote:
> What I find different supporting Linux and OSx (weird for
> the sake of weirdness) over Windows is that with Linux and OSx
> I am helping set up things and assisting with program usage.
Tip on OSx, carry your own mouse and a Live Fedora Stick.
Press the flower key when booting a live stick.
The artsy-fartsy mouse that ships with Macs drives
me nuts. Weird for the sake of weirdness.
Gnome is on the weird side, but Apple hardware
takes the cake.
Huh? They're just configuration-restricted PC-style laptops. There's
nothing magical about the hardware anymore. There's no "IWM" chip in
them. They're just laptops, which is why Linux will run on them. One
of the strengths of Linux is it's pretty hardware-agnostic. This also
can be a shortcoming, too, as hardware vendors often won't share data
needed to build drivers, so those are often reverse engineered and may
not have all the "features" one might want.
And I am constantly having to explain
to folks how to use OSx's weird task bar at the top.
Well, yeah, but as you said, Gnome's weird. KDE is weird if you're
used to Gnome or Xfce. Xfce is weird if you're used to something else.
Every desktop is "different" and takes getting used to. And remember,
under that cute, glitzy desktop, OSX is simply BSD Unix. (Shhhh! Don't
tell anyone! It's a secret!)
----------------------------------------------------------------------
- Rick Stevens, Systems Engineer, AllDigital ricks(a)alldigital.com -
- AIM/Skype: therps2 ICQ: 226437340 Yahoo: origrps2 -
- -
- Huked on foniks reely wurked for me! -
----------------------------------------------------------------------
6:51 p.m.
On 10/30/18 4:45 PM, Rick Stevens wrote:
> but Apple hardware
> takes the cake.
Huh? They're just configuration-restricted PC-style laptops.
I wasn't referring to the internals. I was referring to their
weird mice and keyboards. I hate their keyboards. I am
a buckling spring guy. (I have know how to type since I was
17.)
OSX is simply BSD Unix. (Shhhh! Don't tell anyone! It's a
secret!)
You should hear their consternation when you tell them that.
If you want to stay on their good side, you have to all
it "posix unix". Chuckle.
7:31 p.m.
On 10/30/2018 07:45 PM, Rick Stevens wrote:
On 10/30/18 4:16 PM, ToddAndMargo via users wrote:
> On 10/30/18 4:07 PM, ToddAndMargo via users wrote:
>
>> What I find different supporting Linux and OSx (weird for
>> the sake of weirdness) over Windows is that with Linux and OSx
>> I am helping set up things and assisting with program usage.
> Tip on OSx, carry your own mouse and a Live Fedora Stick.
> Press the flower key when booting a live stick.
>
> The artsy-fartsy mouse that ships with Macs drives
> me nuts. Weird for the sake of weirdness.
>
> Gnome is on the weird side, but Apple hardware
> takes the cake.
/snip/
Well, yeah, but as you said, Gnome's weird. KDE is weird if
you're
used to Gnome or Xfce.
I have been using KDE for years, and I think it's a
natural for anyone
used to Windows--i.e., most
all of us. Some of the Linux versions I have seen--the last time I
looked at Ubuntu, for instance--
seem to have gone out of their way to make everything Windowish work
backwards! The
panel at the top, the window controls on the left--ugh! And some version
has the panel on the
left side of the screen. What are they trying to prove? Now the version
I run (PCLOS) took the
windows controls and made them into a traffic light--red, green and
yellow. After all, MS did
NOT invent windows, Xerox did. MS only refined it, and at XP made a
pretty good desktop.
(Never mind all the problems Windows brings up!)
Rant off! --doug
9 p.m.
On Tue, Oct 30, 2018 at 7:45 PM, Rick Stevens <ricks(a)alldigital.com> wrote:
Huh? They're just configuration-restricted PC-style laptops.
There's
nothing magical about the hardware anymore. There's no "IWM" chip in
them. They're just laptops, which is why Linux will run on them.
Ahh they're able to run Linux mainly because they still abstract their
hardware with (U)EFI, ACPI and AHCI like other commodity hardware. But
I can't fully agree with the idea there's nothing magical about their
hardware - or rather I'd say unusual/proprietary/special. They are
baking in special things that we cannot use, including the finger
print reader, and T2 chip, and although I don't have anything new to
test this on someone told me their recent Macbook (last year or two)
they keyboard isn't recognized at all by Linux - which doesn't make
any sense to me.
Also, I know the latest Mac laptops released this summer now support
Secure Boot. However, they lack the Microsoft UEFI signing key, so
there aren't any Linux distros that can boot with Secure Boot out of
the box, since pretty much everyone depends on shim.efi or something
like it, being signed by the Microsoft UEFI signing key. And so far,
near as I can tell, there isn't end user key management for Apple
hardware.
So consider that I have a frownie face when it comes to future support
of any Linux on Apple hardware.
By the way folks: "Mac OS X" or "OS X" are the older but acceptable
terms, and the latest term is "macOS" If you're using something else,
you're kinda being like Dr Evil in this scene:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UeS-Xb5u4-U
--
Chris Murphy
5:38 a.m.
On Tue, 2018-10-30 at 23:45 +0000, Rick Stevens wrote:
And remember,
under that cute, glitzy desktop, OSX is simply BSD Unix. (Shhhh! Don't
tell anyone! It's a secret!)
Sure, but the complete MacOS is not "simply" BSD. It's a BSD (actually
XNU)-based kernel with an enormous amount of additional non-free stuff,
including the whole UI system, filesystems, drivers etc., which is what
makes the real difference to the end user.
poc
7:14 a.m.
On Wed, Oct 31, 2018 at 12:30 PM Patrick O'Callaghan
<pocallaghan(a)gmail.com> wrote:
On Tue, 2018-10-30 at 23:45 +0000, Rick Stevens wrote:
>
> And remember, under that cute, glitzy desktop, OSX is simply BSD
> Unix. (Shhhh! Don't tell anyone! It's a secret!)
Sure, but the complete MacOS is not "simply" BSD. It's a BSD (actually
XNU)-based kernel with an enormous amount of additional non-free
stuff, including the whole UI system, filesystems, drivers etc., which
is what makes the real difference to the end user.
macOS's base OS is Darwin, which uses a XNU kernel, which is a hybrid
of a Mach microkernel and some FreeBSD and Apple/NeXT kernel code.
The basic userland, "cp" "ifconfig" "ls" "...", is
from an old version
of FreeBSD. And it you look at "/etc/", it's FreeBSDish, but not
necessarily used.
Apple overlays its own tech, GUI and CLI, over all of this. For
example, if you run "cat /etc/{master.,}passwd" you'll only find
"root", "daemon", "nobody", and the macOS
"service" users (like
"_networkd"). The "actual" users are held in an ldap db. For example,
you can change a user's shell via the "dscl" CLI tool or via the GUI
system preferences advanced user options.
macOS's Unix but not *BSD.
6:34 a.m.
On Tue, Oct 30, 2018 at 9:56 PM ToddAndMargo via users
<users(a)lists.fedoraproject.org> wrote:
It is beyond me how Red Hat manages to so bugger up Fedora
when they convert it to RHEL.
it's a big leap to go from "I don't like the choices that RH makes
regarding updates of RHEL vX packages to "bugger up Fedora!"
If I were to speculate, I do believe it is the Open Source
economic model coming to play. You give away to software
and charge for the services. If you want something fixed,
you have to pay for it.
I don't think that any RH client considers RHEL as being given away by
RH because the RHEL rpms and the RHEL licenses come hand in hand.
RH does give away its srpms (in git form these days) for anyone to
use, like CentOS and Scientific Linux.
It's a money and resource issue, of course! If a corporation with 10k
licenses had asked for your qemu problem to be fixed, it would've been
fixed.
2:56 p.m.
On Wed, 31 Oct 2018 12:34:56 +0100
Tom H <tomh0665(a)gmail.com> wrote:
(in git form these days)
another monopolist service, yes?
not reassuring
d
--
In modern fantasy (literary or governmental), killing people is the
usual solution to the so-called war between good and evil. My books are
not conceived in terms of such a war, and offer no simple answers to
simplistic questions.
----- Ursula Le Guin
3:20 p.m.
Dave Stevens wrote:
On Wed, 31 Oct 2018 12:34:56 +0100
Tom H <tomh0665(a)gmail.com> wrote:
> (in git form these days)
another monopolist service, yes?
not reassuring
No. The sources are at https://git.centos.org/. There's
nothing there you can't access via free software.
Perhaps you're conflating Github with git?
--
Todd
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
I'm not concerned about all hell breaking loose, but that a PART of
hell will break loose... it'll be much harder to detect.
-- George Carlin
3:32 p.m.
On Wed, 31 Oct 2018 16:20:45 -0400
Todd Zullinger <tmz(a)pobox.com> wrote:
Dave Stevens wrote:
> On Wed, 31 Oct 2018 12:34:56 +0100
> Tom H <tomh0665(a)gmail.com> wrote:
>
>> (in git form these days)
>
> another monopolist service, yes?
> not reassuring
No. The sources are at https://git.centos.org/. There's
nothing there you can't access via free software.
Perhaps you're conflating Github with git?
as far as I can see Centos is owned by Red Hat and so by IBM if the
offer goes through, Guthub is owned by Microsoft. Increasing
concentration of services and so control is routine, just not what I'd
prefer to see.
D
--
In modern fantasy (literary or governmental), killing people is the
usual solution to the so-called war between good and evil. My books are
not conceived in terms of such a war, and offer no simple answers to
simplistic questions.
----- Ursula Le Guin
4:38 p.m.
On 10/31/18 1:32 PM, Dave Stevens wrote:
On Wed, 31 Oct 2018 16:20:45 -0400
Todd Zullinger <tmz(a)pobox.com> wrote:
> Dave Stevens wrote:
>> On Wed, 31 Oct 2018 12:34:56 +0100
>> Tom H <tomh0665(a)gmail.com> wrote:
>>
>>> (in git form these days)
>>
>> another monopolist service, yes?
>> not reassuring
>
> No. The sources are at https://git.centos.org/. There's
> nothing there you can't access via free software.
>
> Perhaps you're conflating Github with git?
>
as far as I can see Centos is owned by Red Hat and so by IBM if the
offer goes through, Guthub is owned by Microsoft. Increasing
concentration of services and so control is routine, just not what I'd
prefer to see.
First off, CentOS may be _affiliated_ with Red Hat, but they are not
_owned_ by Red Hat. CentOS is run by centos.org and is a community-
supported program. Yes, they use Red Hat's source RPMs, but they rebrand
them and publishe the resulting content as (essentially) "free" RHEL.
There is no commercial support for CentOS. CentOS follows the RHEL
update schedule, but lags a bit behind due to the extra work they have
to do to rebrand things.
Yes, Github is owned by Microsoft, but the sources for CentOS are on a
git server at the CentOS farm (https://git.centos.org), NOT on Github.
Red Hat puts nothing they generate on Github. Neither does CentOS. If
there is code there, some third party did it.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
- Rick Stevens, Systems Engineer, AllDigital ricks(a)alldigital.com -
- AIM/Skype: therps2 ICQ: 226437340 Yahoo: origrps2 -
- -
- Diplomacy: The art of saying "Nice doggy!" until you can find a -
- big enough rock. -
----------------------------------------------------------------------
6:31 p.m.
On Wed, Oct 31, 2018 at 11:30 PM Rick Stevens <ricks(a)alldigital.com> wrote:
On 10/31/18 1:32 PM, Dave Stevens wrote:
>
> as far as I can see Centos is owned by Red Hat and so by IBM if the
> offer goes through, Guthub is owned by Microsoft. Increasing
> concentration of services and so control is routine, just not what I'd
> prefer to see.
First off, CentOS may be _affiliated_ with Red Hat, but they are not
_owned_ by Red Hat. CentOS is run by centos.org and is a community-
supported program.
"The ownership of the CentOS trademarks, along with the requirement that
the board have a majority of Red Hat employees makes it clear that, for
all the talk of partnership and joining forces, this is really an
acquisition by Red Hat. The CentOS project will live on, but as a
subsidiary of Red Hat—much as Fedora is today."
from https://lwn.net/Articles/579551/
"Furthermore, some of the existing CentOS Core members are moving to
take up roles at Red Hat, as a part of their sponsorship of the CentOS
Project, allowing these people to work on the Project as their primary
job function. This includes Johnny Hughes Jr, Jim Perrin, Fabian
Arrotin, and myself. We will be working with and operating out of the
Red Hat Open Source and Standards team in the CTO's Office."
from https://lists.centos.org/pipermail/centos-announce/2014-January/020100.html
11:58 p.m.
One question: If Red hat has been "purchased" by IBM....what happens to the
GPL license?..after all IBM is a "proprietary" company. What will happen to
the licensing of CEntOS?....Fedora?...truly troubling times. I might have
to go down the Yellow Brick Road and take up Debian as my regular OS. 😢
EGO II
On Wed, Oct 31, 2018 at 8:23 PM Tom H <tomh0665(a)gmail.com> wrote:
On Wed, Oct 31, 2018 at 11:30 PM Rick Stevens
<ricks(a)alldigital.com>
wrote:
> On 10/31/18 1:32 PM, Dave Stevens wrote:
>>
>> as far as I can see Centos is owned by Red Hat and so by IBM if the
>> offer goes through, Guthub is owned by Microsoft. Increasing
>> concentration of services and so control is routine, just not what I'd
>> prefer to see.
>
> First off, CentOS may be _affiliated_ with Red Hat, but they are not
> _owned_ by Red Hat. CentOS is run by centos.org and is a community-
> supported program.
"The ownership of the CentOS trademarks, along with the requirement that
the board have a majority of Red Hat employees makes it clear that, for
all the talk of partnership and joining forces, this is really an
acquisition by Red Hat. The CentOS project will live on, but as a
subsidiary of Red Hat—much as Fedora is today."
from https://lwn.net/Articles/579551/
"Furthermore, some of the existing CentOS Core members are moving to
take up roles at Red Hat, as a part of their sponsorship of the CentOS
Project, allowing these people to work on the Project as their primary
job function. This includes Johnny Hughes Jr, Jim Perrin, Fabian
Arrotin, and myself. We will be working with and operating out of the
Red Hat Open Source and Standards team in the CTO's Office."
from
https://lists.centos.org/pipermail/centos-announce/2014-January/020100.html
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10:45 a.m.
On Thu, Nov 01, 2018 at 12:58:47AM -0400, Eddie O'Connor wrote:
One question: If Red hat has been "purchased" by
IBM....what happens to the
GPL license?..after all IBM is a "proprietary" company. What will happen to
the licensing of CEntOS?....Fedora?...truly troubling times. I might have
to go down the Yellow Brick Road and take up Debian as my regular OS. 😢
From the press release:
"With this acquisition, IBM will remain committed to Red Hat’s open
governance, open source contributions, participation in the open source
community and development model, and fostering its widespread developer
ecosystem. In addition, IBM and Red Hat will remain committed to the
continued freedom of open source, via such efforts as Patent Promise, GPL
Cooperation Commitment, the Open Invention Network and the LOT Network."
https://www.redhat.com/en/about/press-releases/ibm-acquire-red-hat-comple...
Remember also:
"The top 10 organizations sponsoring Linux kernel development since the
last report are Intel, Red Hat, Linaro, IBM, Samsung, SUSE, Google, AMD,
Renesas, and Mellanox."
https://www.linuxfoundation.org/blog/2017/10/2017-linux-kernel-report-hig...
Looking at the numbers, together Red Hat + IBM would be number one, beating
out Intel.
We can't predict the future, but IBM has definitely contributed
significantly to Linux and to other software under the GPL in the past —
and the press release does give a strong commitment as well.
--
Matthew Miller
<mattdm(a)fedoraproject.org>
Fedora Project Leader
11:25 a.m.
On Thu, Nov 1, 2018 at 6:50 AM Eddie O'Connor <eoconnor25(a)gmail.com> wrote:
One question: If Red hat has been "purchased" by
IBM....what happens
to the GPL license?
Nothing
..after all IBM is a "proprietary" company. What will
happen to the
licensing of CEntOS?....Fedora?
Nothing
> ...truly troubling times. I might have to go down the Yellow Brick
> Road and take up Debian as my regular OS.
10:40 a.m.
On Thu, Nov 01, 2018 at 12:31:21AM +0100, Tom H wrote:
Project, allowing these people to work on the Project as their
primary
job function. This includes Johnny Hughes Jr, Jim Perrin, Fabian
Arrotin, and myself. We will be working with and operating out of the
Red Hat Open Source and Standards team in the CTO's Office."
For what it's worth, most of these people now work on the Community Platform
Engineering team rather than in OSAS. They work directly with the people
employeed to work on Fedora Infrastructure, Rel-Eng, Apps, and so on.
--
Matthew Miller
<mattdm(a)fedoraproject.org>
Fedora Project Leader
5:58 a.m.
On Thu, Nov 1, 2018 at 5:31 PM Matthew Miller <mattdm(a)fedoraproject.org> wrote:
On Thu, Nov 01, 2018 at 12:31:21AM +0100, Tom H wrote:
>
> Project, allowing these people to work on the Project as their
> primary job function. This includes Johnny Hughes Jr, Jim Perrin,
> Fabian Arrotin, and myself. We will be working with and operating out
> of the Red Hat Open Source and Standards team in the CTO's Office."
For what it's worth, most of these people now work on the Community
Platform Engineering team rather than in OSAS. They work directly with
the people employeed to work on Fedora Infrastructure, Rel-Eng, Apps,
and so on.
Thanks for the clarification.
3:31 p.m.
On 10/30/2018 12:53 PM, Dave Stevens wrote:
On Mon, 29 Oct 2018 22:19:44 -0700
Paul Allen Newell <pnewell0705(a)gmail.com> wrote:
> ToddAndMargo:
>
> Using/watching what Fedora is doing is a good way to prepare for what
> might be coming in RHEL/Centos
>
> Paul
yes but not as good as a written roadmap
d
agreed
11:50 p.m.
On 10/29/18 6:30 PM, Fred Smith wrote:
On Mon, Oct 29, 2018 at 04:26:46PM -0700, ToddAndMargo via users
wrote:
> The big question is how will IBM look at it. RHEL is pretty
much
> unusable for newer software as RHEL is so bug riddled and out of
> date.
Don't know why you think RHEL is bug riddled. it's stable
and
will run for years.
Glad you asked. I make that statement from my experience with RHEL
and Clones.
What RHEL does is to make some minor tweaks and freeze a defunct
version of Fedora. It is by design, meaning purposefully, an
anti-Kaisen operating system for the reasons you described.
If you only run what is in the box, it will run and run
as your described.
Kaisen comes from Dr. Demming's work. It means "constant improvement".
Fedora is a Kaisen operating system. It just gets better and better.
For RHEL to be useful, you have to have run out-of-date software
that is compatible with RHEL's out-of-date nature. This means no
Kaisen. You'd better like what you got and not want anything
improved or your venture will come down around your ears.
Now I used RHEL and friends for around ten years or so (just guessing).
It nearly drove me insane. The straw that broke the camels was
when a bug in Osmo and RHEL deleted my business contacts. Mind
you, Osmo had fixed this, but they could not help me as RHEL was
so out of date. My mistake was thinking I could actually use RHEL
with current software.
Now as far as updates are concerned, I have seen Microsoft's updates
almost ruin businesses, especially their insane Windows 10 updates.
So I fully know what you speak of. I have not seen this is Fedora.
The worst I have seen is Red Shift get broken (they just fixed it).
I model new Fedora updates on a qemu-kvm virtual machine and
put it through its paces. Then up update my machines. When I am happy
with that, I move on to my the two Fedora servers at customer sites
that I maintain.
With Fedora, I have never had much of any issues with updates.
A few of RHEL's have brought tears to my eyes. 278 to 28 on
my main office computer took only 15 minutes (NVMe drives
are AWESOME!). A mechanical drive unit took about an hour.
As far as using RHEL, you use it like an appliance. Once you
get your stuff working on it, that is it. No changes. I might
add that you can do this with ANY operating system. You just
turn off the updates. You don't need RHEL for that. And I might
point out that an operating is "stable" if it runs the software you
want. Even Windows 10 is stable if all you run on it is Freecell.
Now as far as fixing things. RHEL indeed does fix things. Sometimes.
Well, my experience is SIX YEARS TO NEVER. And they do include "some"
things to their kludge kernels, but never the things you actually need.
With Fedora, bugs typically get fix in one to two months -- this is
absolutely awesome. The only exception is that they are dragging the
collective a***es on fixing usb with my wife's tablet:
https://bugzilla.redhat.com/show_bug.cgi?id=1527735
Red Shift too a while too, but they worked on it constantly.
And speaking of "never" RHEL can only run an outdated, bug riddled
version of qemu-kvm. Drove me insane. For instance, Usb2 is five
times slower than native:
https://bugzilla.redhat.com/show_bug.cgi?id=1224498
And Red Hat CAN DO NOTHING ABOUT IT as RHEL is so terribly out of date.
That would be
https://bugzilla.redhat.com/show_bug.cgi?id=1518387
AND! The irony of KVM being a Red Hat project and even their bugs fixes
will not run on RHEL has not escaped me.
By the way, the updates version of qemu-kvm runs beautifully on
Fedora. It is a charm to run.
So to summarize, my system is a Kaisen system. I am always working
on things and trying new things out to meet my needs and my
customer's needs. When I switched from RHEL to Fedora, I had a case
of the giggles for about three months. "Look at all the stuff that
has finally started working!" RHEL almost drove me insane.
And yes, I know, I was not using it as an appliance. My bad.
I am a Fedora fan and an RHEL anti-fan. For all the years
I suffered with RHEL and friends, I have nothing my derision.
-T
7:54 a.m.
On Tue, 30 Oct 2018 at 05:42, ToddAndMargo via users
<users(a)lists.fedoraproject.org> wrote:
On 10/29/18 6:30 PM, Fred Smith wrote:
> On Mon, Oct 29, 2018 at 04:26:46PM -0700, ToddAndMargo via users wrote:
>> The big question is how will IBM look at it. RHEL is pretty much
>> unusable for newer software as RHEL is so bug riddled and out of
>> date.
> Don't know why you think RHEL is bug riddled. it's stable and
> will run for years.
Glad you asked. I make that statement from my experience with RHEL
and Clones.
What RHEL does is to make some minor tweaks and freeze a defunct
version of Fedora. It is by design, meaning purposefully, an
anti-Kaisen operating system for the reasons you described.
If you only run what is in the box, it will run and run
as your described.
This is not what RHEL is, or how it is made. The rest of your post
illustrates that you don't actually know what RHEL is for. If you need
to support validated systems then you do not want an OS that changes
every six months and wont run unless every component in it is
upgraded. They both have a place.
--
imalone
http://ibmalone.blogspot.co.uk
1:24 a.m.
On 10/29/18 6:30 PM, Fred Smith wrote:
Some of us (many businesses) don't want a new version of Linux
every six
months, they want systems that will be stable and will run for years
with nothing more than the occasional yum update and more occasional
reboot. People with many computers can't spend time reinstalling and
re-configuring all of them once or twice every year. And I don't want
to do that with my home systems either. I want something I can use
for 2 or 3 years, at least, before enduring the reinstall pain again.
I am somewhat perplexed at the above. No one is
forcing you to update Fedora. Just turn off your
updates. I am not seeing what your complaint is.
4:57 a.m.
Hi Fred and all,
Well, I understand although disagree. If one doesn't want upgrades, there
are other systems like Debian stable. Besides upgrades aren't mandatory,
as ToddandMargo said, if you don't want them simply turn them off. Last
but not least, why do you need to reinstall? Upgrading from one version to
another is as smooth as it can be. I don't see reinstalling as a pain, in
any average computer will take only few minutes, but well, it's
understandable that you may not want to go through it. But what
reinstalling for? Why not just upgrading the system? Am I missing
something?
Kind regards,
Silvia
On Tue, 30 Oct 2018 at 07:15, ToddAndMargo via users <
users(a)lists.fedoraproject.org> wrote:
On 10/29/18 6:30 PM, Fred Smith wrote:
> Some of us (many businesses) don't want a new version of Linux every six
> months, they want systems that will be stable and will run for years
> with nothing more than the occasional yum update and more occasional
> reboot. People with many computers can't spend time reinstalling and
> re-configuring all of them once or twice every year. And I don't want
> to do that with my home systems either. I want something I can use
> for 2 or 3 years, at least, before enduring the reinstall pain again.
I am somewhat perplexed at the above. No one is
forcing you to update Fedora. Just turn off your
updates. I am not seeing what your complaint is.
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5:34 a.m.
On Tue, Oct 30, 2018 at 09:57:19AM +0000, Frau Silvia Sánchez wrote:
Hi Fred and all,
Well, I understand although disagree. If one doesn't want upgrades,
there are other systems like Debian stable. Besides upgrades aren't
mandatory, as ToddandMargo said, if you don't want them simply turn
them off. Last but not least, why do you need to reinstall? Upgrading
from one version to another is as smooth as it can be. I don't see
reinstalling as a pain, in any average computer will take only few
minutes, but well, it's understandable that you may not want to go
through it. But what reinstalling for? Why not just upgrading the
system? Am I missing something?
Kind regards,
Silvia
Updates are necessary if you want to keep it secure. Many distros
are new annually or more often, and only keep issuing patches for
the most recent or two most recent releases.once you go past that
point you're asking for trouble.
Not wanting to do a full upgrade annually doesn't mean I want an
insecure system.
On Tue, 30 Oct 2018 at 07:15, ToddAndMargo via users
<[1]users(a)lists.fedoraproject.org> wrote:
On 10/29/18 6:30 PM, Fred Smith wrote:
> Some of us (many businesses) don't want a new version of Linux
every six
> months, they want systems that will be stable and will run for
years
> with nothing more than the occasional yum update and more
occasional
> reboot. People with many computers can't spend time reinstalling
and
> re-configuring all of them once or twice every year. And I don't
want
> to do that with my home systems either. I want something I can
use
> for 2 or 3 years, at least, before enduring the reinstall pain
again.
I am somewhat perplexed at the above. No one is
forcing you to update Fedora. Just turn off your
updates. I am not seeing what your complaint is.
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--
---- Fred Smith -- fredex(a)fcshome.stoneham.ma.us -----------------------------
The Lord detests the way of the wicked
but he loves those who pursue righteousness.
----------------------------- Proverbs 15:9 (niv) -----------------------------
2:33 p.m.
On 10/30/18 3:34 AM, Fred Smith wrote:
On Tue, Oct 30, 2018 at 09:57:19AM +0000, Frau Silvia Sánchez wrote:
> Hi Fred and all,
> Well, I understand although disagree. If one doesn't want upgrades,
> there are other systems like Debian stable. Besides upgrades aren't
> mandatory, as ToddandMargo said, if you don't want them simply turn
> them off. Last but not least, why do you need to reinstall? Upgrading
> from one version to another is as smooth as it can be. I don't see
> reinstalling as a pain, in any average computer will take only few
> minutes, but well, it's understandable that you may not want to go
> through it. But what reinstalling for? Why not just upgrading the
> system? Am I missing something?
> Kind regards,
> Silvia
Updates are necessary if you want to keep it secure. Many distros
are new annually or more often, and only keep issuing patches for
the most recent or two most recent releases.once you go past that
point you're asking for trouble.
Not wanting to do a full upgrade annually doesn't mean I want an
insecure system.
Basically, not all the insecure. If you look at the Windows world,
the breaking rates of unsupported XP versus supported W7 shows
that XP is more secure. So a lot of it depends on what you are doing
with your system. An older version of Firefox may not have the
vulnerability that a new one does or even the capability of executing
the vulnerability.
The breaking rates for Fedora are very, very close to zero. Plus
by using Linux, you are doing security by obscurity. Linux
has very little market share, so the bad guys don't waste
the time. Plus M$ makes the garbage easy to break into.
Fedora is the opposite.
Again, looking at the Windows world, Windows 10 have "releases".
1803 is the current one. When M$ upgrades to the next release,
it is a full reinstall of the system. And if causes HAVOC
on the customers. I get requested frequently to just turn
the stinking things off. M$ upgrades have caused far more
damage than any viruses ever did in a lot of cases.
Me personally, on my Windows VM's updates are turned off.
They have to work when I need them and I hardly ever use
them on the internet. Plus, anyone trying to reverse into
them have to rub the gauntlet of iptables. And they
are usually off anyway
And Fedora, on the other hand, has make upgrades really simple.
And they are very professional about how they do it. The opposite
of M$.
I always love to see what is new in Fedora. I cringe at whenever M$
does a new release (one is supposedly coming up soon).
12:30 a.m.
Tim:
> And you can say it about anything. e.g. The commercial phone
> companies don't exist for people to be able to communicate (what
> their customers consider their primary purpose to be). They're
> there to make money and it really doesn't care how well the
> communications aspect of it works.
ToddAndMargo:
"Capitalism" is an insult term made up by Marxists to
describe the
Free Market, which is "the free and open exchange of goods and
services between consenting parties". Under the Free Market, to meet
your own needs, you must meet the the needs of your customers.
It's just what it's called, whether or not someone considers it to be
an insult. Communism is an insult term, from the Yanks perspective,
who're paranoidly afraid of it.
Your description of communications customers only caring about money
falls apart. If the service stinks, folks go elsewhere. As a
small businessman, I can tell you that if I do not meet the needs
of my customers, I STARVE. I live it and breath it. I am only
rewarded for meeting my customers needs.
On an small scale, you're kept in check. Large scale, no. We have to
legislate to stop businesses being huge crooks. Market forces, alone,
do not keep them in check.
We have a prime example in this country of Telstra (a phone company).
They bugger everyone up, customers and systems, with the you'll have to
put up with it, or go to one of the small number of highly similar
competitors. So, no, market forces don't keep them in check. We had a
seriously out of date analogue system for decades, poor pricing schemes
and features, poor complaint handling, etc. We have the NBN broadband
disaster because Telstra deliberately refused to keep their network
updated with modern standards, because they didn't want to *have* to
share it with competitors. It was a screw everyone approach, because
they weren't going to be allowed to be monopoly. Year in, year out,
it's been proved that all their care about is their market worth, not
the customers that pay them.
Red Hat has every right to sell itself to IBM, as Lands' End had
every right to sell itself to Sears. And I have every right to look
elsewhere for someone else that will meet my needs.
I'm not saying they don't have the "right." Just that the system is
gross.
--
uname -rsvp
Linux 3.10.0-862.14.4.el7.x86_64 #1 SMP Wed Sep 26 15:12:11 UTC 2018 x86_64
Boilerplate: All unexpected mail to my mailbox is automatically deleted.
I will only get to see the messages that are posted to the mailing list.
1:27 a.m.
On 10/29/18 10:30 PM, Tim via users wrote:
We have a prime example in this country of Telstra (a phone
company).
They bugger everyone up, customers and systems, with the you'll have to
put up with it, or go to one of the small number of highly similar
competitors. So, no, market forces don't keep them in check. We had a
seriously out of date analogue system for decades, poor pricing schemes
and features, poor complaint handling, etc. We have the NBN broadband
disaster because Telstra deliberately refused to keep their network
updated with modern standards, because they didn't want to*have* to
share it with competitors. It was a screw everyone approach, because
they weren't going to be allowed to be monopoly. Year in, year out,
it's been proved that all their care about is their market worth, not
the customers that pay them.
Time for Anti Trust laws to kick in. Bust them up into five
or more companies.
12:14 p.m.
On 10/29/18 11:27 PM, ToddAndMargo via users wrote:
On 10/29/18 10:30 PM, Tim via users wrote:
> We have a prime example in this country of Telstra (a phone company).
> They bugger everyone up, customers and systems, with the you'll have to
> put up with it, or go to one of the small number of highly similar
> competitors. So, no, market forces don't keep them in check. We had a
> seriously out of date analogue system for decades, poor pricing schemes
> and features, poor complaint handling, etc. We have the NBN broadband
> disaster because Telstra deliberately refused to keep their network
> updated with modern standards, because they didn't want to*have* to
> share it with competitors. It was a screw everyone approach, because
> they weren't going to be allowed to be monopoly. Year in, year out,
> it's been proved that all their care about is their market worth, not
> the customers that pay them.
Time for Anti Trust laws to kick in. Bust them up into five
or more companies.
Guys, this is NOT a political forum. Please stop trying to compare
capitalism and communism and socialism here. It's not appropriate
subject matter for this list. Take it to a political forum somewhere
else.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
- Rick Stevens, Systems Engineer, AllDigital ricks(a)alldigital.com -
- AIM/Skype: therps2 ICQ: 226437340 Yahoo: origrps2 -
- -
- Is that a buffer overflow or are you just happy to see me? -
----------------------------------------------------------------------
2:49 p.m.
On 10/30/18 10:14 AM, Rick Stevens wrote:
Guys, this is NOT a political forum. Please stop trying to compare
capitalism and communism and socialism here. It's not appropriate
subject matter for this list. Take it to a political forum somewhere
else.
Rick is correct.
If anyone wishes to elaborate on the economic systems, please
write me directly and not on the forum.
10:04 a.m.
On 29/10/18 02:56 AM, ToddAndMargo via users wrote:
"Capitalism" is an insult term made up by Marxists to
describe the
Free Market, which is "the free and open exchange of goods and
services between consenting parties". Under the Free Market, to meet
your
own needs, you must meet the the needs of your customers.
Hey man, saw this post on the Fedora mailing list. While it was way
off topic :-) and inevitably and predictably set off a shitstorm, I
just wanted to say thank you. Some days it seems like there aren't
many of us out there that still believe this, and even those of us
that are don't usually speak up for fear of the backlash. So thanks.
The cognitive dissonance of people who would likely not be alive, let
alone sitting in heated homes, typing on powerful computers, that
deride the very same capitalism that provides them with these bounties
always amazes me. They just assume these things are "just here"
*somehow*, and that the only social question is how to "distribute" them.
Regards,
Raman
11:16 p.m.
On Wed, 31 Oct 2018 11:04:42 -0400 Raman Gupta <rocketraman(a)gmail.com> wrote:
On 29/10/18 02:56 AM, ToddAndMargo via users wrote:
> "Capitalism" is an insult term made up by Marxists to describe the
> Free Market, which is "the free and open exchange of goods and
> services between consenting parties". Under the Free Market, to meet
> your
> own needs, you must meet the the needs of your customers.
Hey man, saw this post on the Fedora mailing list. While it was way
off topic :-) and inevitably and predictably set off a shitstorm, I
just wanted to say thank you. Some days it seems like there aren't
many of us out there that still believe this, and even those of us
that are don't usually speak up for fear of the backlash. So thanks.
The cognitive dissonance of people who would likely not be alive, let
alone sitting in heated homes, typing on powerful computers, that
deride the very same capitalism that provides them with these bounties
always amazes me. They just assume these things are "just here"
*somehow*, and that the only social question is how to "distribute" them.
Yes, indeed, all first developed and tested as a concept first by the taxpayer. After
success is established courtesy NSF, NIH, NASA, NSERC, CSIRO, CSIR, etc etc, then it moves
on to commercialization by other players. No issues here, businesses tend to be generally
risk-averse.
Let us keep things in perspective and not sell ourselves short.
Ranjan
10:30 p.m.
On 10/28/18 10:04 PM, ToddAndMargo via users wrote:
When it finally breaks, look up Unicomp. They have excellent
buckling
spring keyboards. (I am typing on one right now.)
Yup, know all about Unicomp. I restore Model Ms as a hobby and have one
of Unicomp's black/white/gray UltraClassic USB models too. Bought quite
a few parts from them to do repairs on old abused Ms.
Leander
--
---
Leander Hutton
leander(a)one-button.org
www.leanderhutton.com
www.one-button.org
11:11 p.m.
On 10/28/2018 11:30 PM, Leander Hutton wrote:
On 10/28/18 10:04 PM, ToddAndMargo via users wrote:
> When it finally breaks, look up Unicomp. They have excellent buckling
> spring keyboards. (I am typing on one right now.)
Yup, know all about Unicomp. I restore Model Ms as a hobby and have one
of Unicomp's black/white/gray UltraClassic USB models too. Bought quite
a few parts from them to do repairs on old abused Ms.
Leander
I assume you're talking IBM model M keyboards. I have three of them that
I use regularly--this one that I'm typing on now--and you can't beat them
for quality, touch, and longevity. I would bet these are 40 years old, at
least, and they're going strong. Bought them all for peanuts at the old
computer flea-markets in New Jersey. But they're too loud for an office!
(Two are full size, with two batches of special keys on the right, one is
without the number keypad, all have the function keys at the top.) If I
ever have to use Windows, ALT+ESC equals the left Windows key.
--doug
5:19 p.m.
On Mon, Oct 29, 2018 at 3:55 AM ToddAndMargo via users
<users(a)lists.fedoraproject.org> wrote:
RHEL is defunct, out-of-date garbage.
Garbage? I wonder how many S&P 500 use RHEL and how many use Fedora :)
And if you look at all companies, how many use CentOS and how may use Fedora?
9:12 p.m.
On Sun, 28 Oct 2018 22:49:46 +0000
Patrick O'Callaghan <pocallaghan(a)gmail.com> wrote:
I know this is strictly OT, but I suggest it's of some interest
to
this list:
https://www.cnbc.com/2018/10/28/ibm-to-acquire-red-hat-in-deal-valued-at-...
From the Reuters version of this story:
"IBM said Red Hat will continue to be led by Red Hat CEO Jim Whitehurst
and Red Hat’s current management team. It intends to maintain Red Hat’s
headquarters, facilities, brands and practices."
That doesn't sound like they are going to put the kibosh on Fedora, at
least initially. And even if the deal goes through (small chance it
won't with such a premium), it isn't going to close until the second
half of 2019.
9:39 p.m.
This is much worse news for SUSE.
IBM and SUSE had some strong collaboration whereas IBM Cloud ran SUSE
Enterprise.
With RHEL becoming "IBM's own Linux" the incentive to offer SUSE is
suddenly gone.
FC
On Sun, Oct 28, 2018, 20:40 Patrick O'Callaghan <pocallaghan(a)gmail.com>
wrote:
I know this is strictly OT, but I suggest it's of some interest
to this
list:
https://www.cnbc.com/2018/10/28/ibm-to-acquire-red-hat-in-deal-valued-at-...
poc
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12:47 p.m.
On October 28, 2018 10:49:46 PM UTC, Patrick O'Callaghan <pocallaghan(a)gmail.com>
wrote:
I know this is strictly OT, but I suggest it's of some interest to
this
list:
https://www.cnbc.com/2018/10/28/ibm-to-acquire-red-hat-in-deal-valued-at-...
poc
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This purchase is about CoreOS and having a strong k8s play. I doubt fedora even was on the
radar of the suits.
--Josh
--
Sent from my Android device with K-9 Mail. Please excuse my brevity.
2:56 p.m.
On 10/29/18 10:47 AM, Joshua D Doll wrote:
On October 28, 2018 10:49:46 PM UTC, Patrick O'Callaghan
<pocallaghan(a)gmail.com> wrote:
I know this is strictly OT, but I suggest it's of some interest to this
list:
https://www.cnbc.com/2018/10/28/ibm-to-acquire-red-hat-in-deal-valued-at-...
poc
------------------------------------------------------------------------
This purchase is about CoreOS and having a strong k8s play. I doubt
fedora even was on the radar of the suits.
--Josh
--
Sent from my Android device with K-9 Mail. Please excuse my brevity.
_______________________________________________
...and it's that lack of radar blip that concerns me about Fedora. The
suits don't know that they will own fedora, what it is, or how it
contributes to the bottom line. It will look like a cost center with no
return to the bean counters and that _could_ make it a target.
But we'll have to wait and see what influence the IBM corporate
management chooses to exert on the RH "division"
~~R
3:48 p.m.
On 10/29/18 12:56 PM, Richard England wrote:
On 10/29/18 10:47 AM, Joshua D Doll wrote:
> On October 28, 2018 10:49:46 PM UTC, Patrick O'Callaghan
> <pocallaghan(a)gmail.com> wrote:
>
> I know this is strictly OT, but I suggest it's of some interest to this
> list:
>
>
https://www.cnbc.com/2018/10/28/ibm-to-acquire-red-hat-in-deal-valued-at-...
>
>
> This purchase is about CoreOS and having a strong k8s play. I doubt
> fedora even was on the radar of the suits.
>
...and it's that lack of radar blip that concerns me about Fedora. The
suits don't know that they will own fedora, what it is, or how it
contributes to the bottom line. It will look like a cost center with no
return to the bean counters and that _could_ make it a target.
But we'll have to wait and see what influence the IBM corporate
management chooses to exert on the RH "division"
With this amount of money involved, I'd rather think the "suits" know
about everything that's RedHat-ish. If not, they've not done their
due dilligence.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
- Rick Stevens, Systems Engineer, AllDigital ricks(a)alldigital.com -
- AIM/Skype: therps2 ICQ: 226437340 Yahoo: origrps2 -
- -
- I haven't lost my mind. It's backed up on tape somewhere, but -
- probably not recoverable. -
----------------------------------------------------------------------
3:55 p.m.
On October 29, 2018 8:48:29 PM UTC, Rick Stevens <ricks(a)alldigital.com> wrote:
On 10/29/18 12:56 PM, Richard England wrote:
> On 10/29/18 10:47 AM, Joshua D Doll wrote:
>> On October 28, 2018 10:49:46 PM UTC, Patrick O'Callaghan
>> <pocallaghan(a)gmail.com> wrote:
>>
>> I know this is strictly OT, but I suggest it's of some interest
to this
>> list:
>>
>>
https://www.cnbc.com/2018/10/28/ibm-to-acquire-red-hat-in-deal-valued-at-...
>>
>>
>> This purchase is about CoreOS and having a strong k8s play. I doubt
>> fedora even was on the radar of the suits.
>>
> ...and it's that lack of radar blip that concerns me about Fedora.
The
> suits don't know that they will own fedora, what it is, or how it
> contributes to the bottom line. It will look like a cost center with
no
> return to the bean counters and that _could_ make it a target.
>
> But we'll have to wait and see what influence the IBM corporate
> management chooses to exert on the RH "division"
With this amount of money involved, I'd rather think the "suits" know
about everything that's RedHat-ish. If not, they've not done their
due dilligence.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
- Rick Stevens, Systems Engineer, AllDigital ricks(a)alldigital.com -
- AIM/Skype: therps2 ICQ: 226437340 Yahoo: origrps2 -
- -
- I haven't lost my mind. It's backed up on tape somewhere, but -
- probably not recoverable. -
----------------------------------------------------------------------
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Sure they are aware, but fedora did not factor into the decision, other than being
something on a list somewhere. Fedora existing or not did not factor into this. It's
all about positioning themselves to compete in the k8s space.
--Josh
--
Sent from my Android device with K-9 Mail. Please excuse my brevity.
4:56 p.m.
On 10/30/18 4:48 AM, Rick Stevens wrote:
I'd rather think the "suits" know
about everything that's RedHat-ish.
I was involved when British Telecom was doing their due diligence of a US based company
which had offices worldwide. They sent a team of about 20 people to each office to go
over everything. They were with us for a month in Taiwan. I can't see IBM being any
less
through.
Isn't all this idle speculation with no foundation "exciting"?
--
Cardinal Rule of Presentations: "Tell them what you are going to tell them, tell
them,
then tell them what you told them."
1:52 p.m.
On 28.10.2018 23:49, Patrick O'Callaghan wrote:
I know this is strictly OT, but I suggest it's of some interest
to this
list:
https://www.cnbc.com/2018/10/28/ibm-to-acquire-red-hat-in-deal-valued-at-...
poc
I guess this won't affect anything on the development of Fedora, RHEL,
CentOS, Scientific Linux
this might be a chance to have RHEL on IBM Main Frames ...
2:32 p.m.
On 10/29/18 11:52 AM, Walter H. wrote:
On 28.10.2018 23:49, Patrick O'Callaghan wrote:
> I know this is strictly OT, but I suggest it's of some interest to this
> list:
>
>
https://www.cnbc.com/2018/10/28/ibm-to-acquire-red-hat-in-deal-valued-at-...
>
>
> poc
>
I guess this won't affect anything on the development of Fedora, RHEL,
CentOS, Scientific Linux
this might be a chance to have RHEL on IBM Main Frames ...
Do big IBM (or any) mainframes still exist?
Fedora is the "bleeding edge" development arm of RHEL. Eventually, once
enough changes have been made and stabilized in Fedora, it becomes the
next release of RHEL. We Fedora users are just the lab rats and a giant,
very vocal and fairly sophisticated bunch of beta testers. CentOS is
built off the RHEL source tree. It's rebranded, but it is essentially
RHEL (but free and without direct RedHat support to users).
Now, will any of this change? Likely, but due to the various copyright
and patent prohibitions (GPL, Apache license, etc.), IBM couldn't lock
down the guts of Linux. They might not put any of their "enhancements"
in the wild, but....
On the flip side, if IBM follows the example of, oh, say Tata in its
acquisition of Jaguar Cars, this might not be a horrible thing. Tata,
fortunately, took the view that "We at Tata know how to build trucks and
forklifts. Jaguar, you know how to design and build cars, so you do that
and share the profits with us." So far, that's worked out fairly
successfully for Jaguar and Tata. If IBM takes a hands-off approach
similar to what Tata did, this might not be that horrible.
Only time will tell. Am I scared? A bit, but I can wait. There are
alternatives out there. I'd hate to switch...I've been a RedHat/Fedora
user for a LONG time (since Red Hat 3, I think).
----------------------------------------------------------------------
- Rick Stevens, Systems Engineer, AllDigital ricks(a)alldigital.com -
- AIM/Skype: therps2 ICQ: 226437340 Yahoo: origrps2 -
- -
- "The Schizophrenic: An Unauthorized Autobiography" -
----------------------------------------------------------------------
2:53 p.m.
On Mon, 29 Oct 2018 19:32:37 +0000
Rick Stevens <ricks(a)alldigital.com> wrote:
Fedora is the "bleeding edge" development arm of RHEL.
Eventually,
once enough changes have been made and stabilized in Fedora, it
becomes the next release of RHEL. We Fedora users are just the lab
rats and a giant, very vocal and fairly sophisticated bunch of beta
testers. CentOS is built off the RHEL source tree. It's rebranded,
but it is essentially RHEL (but free and without direct RedHat
support to users).
And this is the reason I think Fedora will continue relatively
unscathed. Replacing the services that the users of Fedora provide to
Red Hat's product with paid employees would be more costly than the
support Red Hat gives Fedora, and less effective in finding issues.
3:31 p.m.
On Mon, Oct 29, 2018 at 12:53:16PM -0700, stan wrote:
On Mon, 29 Oct 2018 19:32:37 +0000
Rick Stevens <ricks(a)alldigital.com> wrote:
> Fedora is the "bleeding edge" development arm of RHEL. Eventually,
> once enough changes have been made and stabilized in Fedora, it
> becomes the next release of RHEL. We Fedora users are just the lab
> rats and a giant, very vocal and fairly sophisticated bunch of beta
> testers. CentOS is built off the RHEL source tree. It's rebranded,
> but it is essentially RHEL (but free and without direct RedHat
> support to users).
And this is the reason I think Fedora will continue relatively
unscathed. Replacing the services that the users of Fedora provide to
Red Hat's product with paid employees would be more costly than the
support Red Hat gives Fedora, and less effective in finding issues.
Additionally:
"Upon closing of the acquisition, Red Hat will join IBM’s Hybrid Cloud
team as a distinct unit, preserving the independence and neutrality of
Red Hat’s open source development heritage and commitment, current
product portfolio and go-to-market strategy, and unique development
culture."
See: "preserving" - Not too many details, but sounds encouraging ...
The merger is expected to be completed only second half 2019:
"The acquisition has been approved by the boards of directors of both
IBM and Red Hat. It is subject to Red Hat shareholder approval. It
also is subject to regulatory approvals and other customary closing
conditions. It is expected to close in the latter half of 2019."
All quotes from above:
https://www.redhat.com/en/about/press-releases/ibm-acquire-red-hat-comple...
I'm getting curious as to the changes the whole thing will bring .. :)
Else: Game over - Linux has won, I think. At least for the next few
months ... ;)
Wolfgang
3:29 p.m.
On Mon, Oct 29, 2018 at 4:23 PM Rick Stevens <ricks(a)alldigital.com> wrote:
Do big IBM (or any) mainframes still exist?
Here are the requirements for running RedHat on s/390 mainframes, so, yes
to both:
https://access.redhat.com/documentation/en-us/red_hat_network_satellite/5...
5:21 p.m.
On Mon, 29 Oct 2018 19:32:37 +0000 Rick Stevens <ricks(a)alldigital.com> wrote:
On 10/29/18 11:52 AM, Walter H. wrote:
> On 28.10.2018 23:49, Patrick O'Callaghan wrote:
>> I know this is strictly OT, but I suggest it's of some interest to this
>> list:
>>
>>
https://www.cnbc.com/2018/10/28/ibm-to-acquire-red-hat-in-deal-valued-at-...
>>
>>
>> poc
>>
> I guess this won't affect anything on the development of Fedora, RHEL,
> CentOS, Scientific Linux
> this might be a chance to have RHEL on IBM Main Frames ...
Do big IBM (or any) mainframes still exist?
Fedora is the "bleeding edge" development arm of RHEL. Eventually, once
enough changes have been made and stabilized in Fedora, it becomes the
next release of RHEL. We Fedora users are just the lab rats and a giant,
very vocal and fairly sophisticated bunch of beta testers. CentOS is
built off the RHEL source tree. It's rebranded, but it is essentially
RHEL (but free and without direct RedHat support to users).
Now, will any of this change? Likely, but due to the various copyright
and patent prohibitions (GPL, Apache license, etc.), IBM couldn't lock
down the guts of Linux. They might not put any of their "enhancements"
in the wild, but....
On the flip side, if IBM follows the example of, oh, say Tata in its
acquisition of Jaguar Cars, this might not be a horrible thing. Tata,
fortunately, took the view that "We at Tata know how to build trucks and
forklifts. Jaguar, you know how to design and build cars, so you do that
and share the profits with us." So far, that's worked out fairly
successfully for Jaguar and Tata. If IBM takes a hands-off approach
similar to what Tata did, this might not be that horrible.
Only time will tell. Am I scared? A bit, but I can wait. There are
alternatives out there. I'd hate to switch...I've been a RedHat/Fedora
user for a LONG time (since Red Hat 3, I think).
Btw,I think that it is still true that Tatas' largest shareholders (in both Tata Steel
and Tata Motors) and lots else are public sector banks which are owned by the government
of India which is constitutionally a Socialist Sovereign Secular Democratic Republic. More
importantly, the Tatas are known for their social bent and for taking care of their
employees, and have been since Jamsetji founded the steel plant in Jamshedpur. The first
non-Tata chair of the holding company Tata Sons was shown the door maybe two years ago
because, if i remember right, he did not quite care much for the niceties of acquiring
Corus, etc, and thought it was a waste of money.
Of course, it is not known what direction IBM will take Redhat and its contributions to
OSS but with Wall Street breathing down the neck for a quicker bang for the buck, who
knows. I don't know that things can be better than they have been, as far as Fedora
goes, so hopefully they will not be worse.
Ranjan
3:37 p.m.
On Mon, Oct 29, 2018 at 1:33 PM Rick Stevens <ricks(a)alldigital.com> wrote:
Do big IBM (or any) mainframes still exist?
You can still buy S/390's, but the big money is not in mainframes, but in
supercomputers. It used to be (in the days of Seymour Cray) that a
supercomputer just had a really fast processor that could do vector
processing (running the same instruction on a whole block of memory
locations in parallel in a single clock tick), but we have pretty much
gotten to light speed limitations on how fast a processor can be, so IBM's
supercomputers these days are clusters of thousands of processors and
cores, exchanging data over specialized high-speed fabrics such as
Infiniband. Linux is critical to making this work (as well as specialized
application libraries to support interprocess communication on such as
system). The IBM supercomputers I have seen all use a variant of Red Hat
Linux, so I wouldn't be surprised if acquiring Linux developers might not
be the main reason for IBM to want to buy Red Hat.
--Greg
4:14 p.m.
On 10/30/18 1:37 PM, Greg Woods wrote:
On Mon, Oct 29, 2018 at 1:33 PM Rick Stevens <ricks(a)alldigital.com
<mailto:ricks@alldigital.com>> wrote:
Do big IBM (or any) mainframes still exist?
You can still buy S/390's, but the big money is not in mainframes, but
in supercomputers. It used to be (in the days of Seymour Cray) that a
supercomputer just had a really fast processor that could do vector
processing (running the same instruction on a whole block of memory
locations in parallel in a single clock tick), but we have pretty much
gotten to light speed limitations on how fast a processor can be, so
IBM's supercomputers these days are clusters of thousands of processors
and cores, exchanging data over specialized high-speed fabrics such as
Infiniband. Linux is critical to making this work (as well as
specialized application libraries to support interprocess communication
on such as system). The IBM supercomputers I have seen all use a variant
of Red Hat Linux, so I wouldn't be surprised if acquiring Linux
developers might not be the main reason for IBM to want to buy Red Hat.
That's what I was getting at. The original mainframe concept is fairly
passe' now. What we have are massively parallel compute platforms now.
They were very niche before (Cray, Connection Machines, Comprex, et al),
but now seem to be more mainstream and generally more expandable.
I agree that the manner in which Linux (or any truly multi-threaded
system) works makes sense for such platforms. The few supercomputers
I've seen also used Linux or some variant of BSD/Unix. Getting in-house
talent to support those things is a reasonable goal. However, Linux (the
kernel) and Gnu/Linux (the system) have built-in safeguards in their
licensing that would prevent IBM from taking the code private (not that
they wouldn't try).
Now, will they (IBM) allow Red Hat to continue developing (for lack of a
better term) public domain code? That's what worries we Fedorans (sic)
as a group. It's a good question and one we really can't answer at this
time.
I'm hoping IBM leaves Red Hat more-or-less alone. Red Hat's been
successful using their existing model--which is why IBM wanted them in
the first place. There's little good in buggering a working model. If
it's not broken, don't try to fix it. Or, as G. Harry Stine wrote in
"Force of Arms", "If it's stupid and it works, it ain't
stupid!"
----------------------------------------------------------------------
- Rick Stevens, Systems Engineer, AllDigital ricks(a)alldigital.com -
- AIM/Skype: therps2 ICQ: 226437340 Yahoo: origrps2 -
- -
- "I'd explain it to you, but your brain might explode." -
----------------------------------------------------------------------
5:20 p.m.
does IBM want RedHat because it is competition for Unix?
On 30/10/18 5:52 am, Walter H. wrote:
On 28.10.2018 23:49, Patrick O'Callaghan wrote:
> I know this is strictly OT, but I suggest it's of some interest to this
> list:
>
>
https://www.cnbc.com/2018/10/28/ibm-to-acquire-red-hat-in-deal-valued-at-...
>
>
> poc
>
I guess this won't affect anything on the development of Fedora, RHEL,
CentOS, Scientific Linux
this might be a chance to have RHEL on IBM Main Frames ...
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8:20 p.m.
On Sun, 28 Oct 2018 at 20:40, Patrick O'Callaghan <pocallaghan(a)gmail.com>
wrote:
I know this is strictly OT, but I suggest it's of some interest
to this
list:
https://www.cnbc.com/2018/10/28/ibm-to-acquire-red-hat-in-deal-valued-at-...
O
Fedora users have to be concerned with changes at RH that may affect the
future
of Fedora. The purchase of RH by IBM should remind us that linux users
depend
heavily on open source licenses controlled by developers, including those
working
for RH and IBM, and on patent licenses granted by corporate interests,
including
IBM and Microsoft. One of Fedora's business values is the free testing
users perform
for RH. This value has eroded over time. More testing is being
automated and is
often incorported into build systems. These tests often originated with
end users,
but if these approaches are successful, the need for end user testing will
be
greatly reduced.
The other business value of Fedora is the pool of users, particularly
younger
users, who will be comfortable with future RHEL releases and make it easier
and cheaper for RHEL customers to find workers.
A major source of bugs that are found in end-user testing is conflicts
between
different applications (for example, app A requires libxx built with option
P enabled
and option Q disabled, while app B requires libxx with option P disabled
and option
Q enabled) are a major source of bugs in linux. This can be seen in the
uses of
static linking for applications such as TeX Live that are available in
binary versions
that run on multiple linux distros. Virtualization makes it feasible to
provide
applications with custom environments that provide a set of libraries tuned
for the
particular requirements of the application.
Another change that affects the viability of Fedora is the pace of changes
needed
to address security issues, which has increased interest in rolling
distributions
over long-term releases.
--
George N. White III
12:38 a.m.
On Mon, 2018-10-29 at 22:20 -0300, George N. White III wrote:
One of Fedora's business values is the free testing users
perform
for RH. This value has eroded over time. More testing is being
automated and is often incorported into build systems. These tests
often originated with end users, but if these approaches are
successful, the need for end user testing will be greatly reduced.
Not to mention the end-users ever increasing willingness to put up with
bad software. The more people put up with crap, the easier it is to
get away with churning it out. Decades of awful Windows software, and
bargain basement hardware, has conditioned people it accepting it.
--
uname -rsvp
Linux 3.10.0-862.14.4.el7.x86_64 #1 SMP Wed Sep 26 15:12:11 UTC 2018 x86_64
Boilerplate: All unexpected mail to my mailbox is automatically deleted.
I will only get to see the messages that are posted to the mailing list.
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104 comments
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