Fedora Community: Under threat?

[D. D. Brierton]

I've been a RHL and FC user for quite some time. I've been on the
mailing lists, and had bugzilla accounts for a long time now. But this
mailing list is strangling itself. The volume is way too high. Look at
the beginning of the Fedora Project and see how many Red Hat engineers
regularly posted to this list, and now look at how many do (Tim Waugh
and Dave Jones make an occasional appearance here these days, and we're
lucky to have them). That's it. Who's driven them away? WE HAVE.

I work for a living. I have no idea what most of the other people on
this list do, but I often feel in a minority. This list should have a
narrow focus, restricted to using Fedora, and that's it. But instead we
have all manner of ridiculous threads, not all of them flame wars, that
go on and on and on. For the last couple of months I actually suspended
delivery from this list because I just couldn't cope with the volume.
Even as it is, I skim through messages, quite possibly missing things
that i could either learn from or help others with just because there is
too much traffic. Who's at fault? Well there is no one else to blame but
ourselves. We *are* the list. Either we decide to only respond to
genuine questions and issues, and ignore the trolls and flame-bait, or
we give into our urges and wreck this community completely. Given the
traffic the last couple of days I have myself considered unsubscribing.
Which is a shame, as whilst that flame war was going on I was helping
someone who was a complete newbie actually install Fedora. Shame on
everyone who perpetuated that total waste of time with so little
consideration for the silent majority on this list.

All of you can say, "If you don't like the heat get out of the kitchen",
but if the temperature gets any hotter so many people might leave that
the Fedora community might end up as one long slanging match like the
Debian community is. I assume that that is not what we want.

So could all of us think twice about what to reply to? If someone says
something stupid, or slags us off, or asks a question they could clearly
answer for themselves if they just tried, how about just ignoring them?
How about all of us exercising a little restraint?

Best, Darren

-- 
=====================================================================
D. D. Brierton            darren(a)dzr-web.com          www.dzr-web.com
       Trying is the first step towards failure (Homer Simpson)
=====================================================================

[Rob Kirkbride]

D. D. Brierton wrote on 28/01/2005 09:02:

> I work for a living. I have no idea what most of the other people on
> this list do, but I often feel in a minority. This list should have a
> narrow focus, restricted to using Fedora, and that's it. But instead we
> have all manner of ridiculous threads, not all of them flame wars, that
> go on and on and on. For the last couple of months I actually suspended
> delivery from this list because I just couldn't cope with the volume.
> Even as it is, I skim through messages, quite possibly missing things
> that i could either learn from or help others with just because there is
> too much traffic. Who's at fault? Well there is no one else to blame but
> ourselves. We *are* the list. Either we decide to only respond to
> genuine questions and issues, and ignore the trolls and flame-bait, or
> we give into our urges and wreck this community completely. Given the
> traffic the last couple of days I have myself considered unsubscribing.
> Which is a shame, as whilst that flame war was going on I was helping
> someone who was a complete newbie actually install Fedora. Shame on
> everyone who perpetuated that total waste of time with so little
> consideration for the silent majority on this list.
>
>   
>  
I totally agree. I like to help out where I can but in the morning when 
I get on, there's usually over 200 messages. Most of the time I just 
delete the messages because the real requests for help get lost in the 
mix. As you say it also restricts our ability to learn and also improve 
the product.

I certainly ignore the obviously trolling and annoying advocacy type 
stuff  (where there's another group for). I wish everyone would do the same!

Rob

[Gain Paolo Mureddu]

D. D. Brierton wrote:

> I've been a RHL and FC user for quite some time. I've been on
> the
> mailing lists, and had bugzilla accounts for a long time now. But this
> mailing list is strangling itself. The volume is way too high. Look at
> the beginning of the Fedora Project and see how many Red Hat engineers
> regularly posted to this list, and now look at how many do (Tim Waugh
> and Dave Jones make an occasional appearance here these days, and we're
> lucky to have them). That's it. Who's driven them away? WE HAVE.
>
> I work for a living. I have no idea what most of the other people on
> this list do, but I often feel in a minority. This list should have a
> narrow focus, restricted to using Fedora, and that's it. But instead we
> have all manner of ridiculous threads, not all of them flame wars, that
> go on and on and on. For the last couple of months I actually suspended
> delivery from this list because I just couldn't cope with the volume.
> Even as it is, I skim through messages, quite possibly missing things
> that i could either learn from or help others with just because there is
> too much traffic. Who's at fault? Well there is no one else to blame but
> ourselves. We *are* the list. Either we decide to only respond to
> genuine questions and issues, and ignore the trolls and flame-bait, or
> we give into our urges and wreck this community completely. Given the
> traffic the last couple of days I have myself considered unsubscribing.
> Which is a shame, as whilst that flame war was going on I was helping
> someone who was a complete newbie actually install Fedora. Shame on
> everyone who perpetuated that total waste of time with so little
> consideration for the silent majority on this list.
>
> All of you can say, "If you don't like the heat get out of the kitchen",
> but if the temperature gets any hotter so many people might leave that
> the Fedora community might end up as one long slanging match like the
> Debian community is. I assume that that is not what we want.
>
> So could all of us think twice about what to reply to? If someone says
> something stupid, or slags us off, or asks a question they could clearly
> answer for themselves if they just tried, how about just ignoring them?
> How about all of us exercising a little restraint?
>
> Best, Darren
>
>   
>  
I must confess your post puzzles me... On the one hand you say it very 
clearly... But I wonder what is the purpose of lists such as this? Yes, 
there has been some bitter events in the past couple of days, but I 
think we can always overcome this. I agree with you that there's a lot 
of traffic on this list... As they say, it all depends on how do you 
look at it: for some people the high amount of traffic may indicate an 
active and healthy community, where as the lack there off means the 
opposite, what does it mean to you?. Don't get me wrong, I also find it 
difficult to keep up with the pace... And in cases like this, it may be 
better if there was some kind of official message board forum for the 
community given the amount of traffic (I just subscribed a few days ago, 
and already have (a dedicated sub-directory of my e-mail account just 
for this list) 1812 messages on it!! that is quite a bit!!). On the 
other hand I don't quite grasp what you mean... I don't think comparing 
the Fedora community to the Debian community is fair for either one... 
Yes many of us (including myself) have our own opinions about the Debian 
community, and sadly more often than not those opinions are not very 
optimistic, but to each their own!

I don't know how true is it to say that this list is meeting point of 
two aspects completely different from one another: The technological 
aspect, the distribution itself, Fedora, a software product which all 
that come and post to this mailing list use... But there is also one 
factor that is not as easily understood, let alone regulate accurately: 
the human aspect of it. One of the things Linux and in general Open 
Source communities have is that there is some kind of aura surrounding 
them... I'd rather use another word to describe it, but I can't find it 
(my vocabulary is so limited!), but it some times seems like some sort 
of "religious fanatism"... The only reason I find for this
"phenomenon" 
to onset is that the community as a whole (and I mean de different 
communities who have as a common aspect Linux to them) "believe" in the 
Open Source, that it works and can change the way the world thinks today 
into a more open scenario... And even though I think that this can 
actually happen, I must confess that I'm impress how personal some 
individuals take this... And it is not one or two... are many more... 
much more. So in a mailing list like this, these two aspects, this 
"duality" colides... which is (at least to me) an interesting thing to 
watch.

In any case... I for one appreciate your concern about the community and 
what it might be happening to it... I can only sit tight and watch as 
the events unravel while we wait on the next Core release and pray for 
someone to answer to our posts.

[John Morrison]

On Fri, 2005-01-28 at 09:02, D. D. Brierton wrote:
>  I've been a RHL and FC user for quite some time. I've been on
> the
>  mailing lists, and had bugzilla accounts for a long time now. But this
>  mailing list is strangling itself. The volume is way too high. Look at
>  the beginning of the Fedora Project and see how many Red Hat engineers
>  regularly posted to this list, and now look at how many do (Tim Waugh
>  and Dave Jones make an occasional appearance here these days, and we're
>  lucky to have them). That's it. Who's driven them away? WE HAVE.
>  
>  I work for a living. I have no idea what most of the other people on
>  this list do, but I often feel in a minority. This list should have a
>  narrow focus, restricted to using Fedora, and that's it. But instead we
>  have all manner of ridiculous threads, not all of them flame wars, that
>  go on and on and on. For the last couple of months I actually suspended
>  delivery from this list because I just couldn't cope with the volume.
>  Even as it is, I skim through messages, quite possibly missing things
>  that i could either learn from or help others with just because there is
>  too much traffic. Who's at fault? Well there is no one else to blame but
>  ourselves. We *are* the list. Either we decide to only respond to
>  genuine questions and issues, and ignore the trolls and flame-bait, or
>  we give into our urges and wreck this community completely. Given the
>  traffic the last couple of days I have myself considered unsubscribing.
>  Which is a shame, as whilst that flame war was going on I was helping
>  someone who was a complete newbie actually install Fedora. Shame on
>  everyone who perpetuated that total waste of time with so little
>  consideration for the silent majority on this list.
>  
>  All of you can say, "If you don't like the heat get out of the kitchen",
>  but if the temperature gets any hotter so many people might leave that
>  the Fedora community might end up as one long slanging match like the
>  Debian community is. I assume that that is not what we want.
>  
>  So could all of us think twice about what to reply to? If someone says
>  something stupid, or slags us off, or asks a question they could clearly
>  answer for themselves if they just tried, how about just ignoring them?
>  How about all of us exercising a little restraint?
>  
>  Best, Darren
>  
>  -- 
>  =====================================================================
>  D. D. Brierton            darren(a)dzr-web.com          www.dzr-web.com
>         Trying is the first step towards failure (Homer Simpson)
>  ===================================================================== 
Hi,

Well said, that about sums it up for me too.

-- 
John Morrison
SNS Group
                                                                                
15 Fitzroy Place
Glasgow. G3 7RW
                                                                                
E: jmorrison(a)snspix.com
T: 0141 2213602
F: 0141 2213595

[D. D. Brierton]

On Fri, 2005-01-28 at 03:52 -0600, Gain Paolo Mureddu wrote:
>  I must confess your post puzzles me... On the one hand you say it
> very 
>  clearly... But I wonder what is the purpose of lists such as this? 
I hope you won't mind if I don't reply in detail to your thoughtful and
well-written reply. I don't want this to turn into a thread which
exemplifies all the things I was decrying in my original posting. But I
agree with much of what you say: yes, the passions and the volume with
which they are expressed on this list is a sign of the health and vigour
of the Fedora community; but at the same time it is also a danger for
it. Many voices shouting loudly about nothing terribly important is not
productive. Remember that at this moment, with CVS (or is it SVN now?)
access still not opened up, these mailing lists are pretty much what
constitutes the Fedora community. And if these flame wars continue then
I think that community might dissipate horribly -- after all, how many
Red Hat engineers post here nowadays? I think that there is a danger
that people will leave this mailing list for good if it continues like
it is, and that will be a bad thing for everyone. That was the only
point I was trying to make.

Best, Darren

-- 
=====================================================================
D. D. Brierton            darren(a)dzr-web.com          www.dzr-web.com
       Trying is the first step towards failure (Homer Simpson)
=====================================================================

[Joel]

On Fri, 28 Jan 2005 10:23:09 +0000
"D. D. Brierton" <darren(a)dzr-web.com&gt; wrote

>  [...] Remember that at this moment, with CVS (or is it SVN now?)
>  access still not opened up, [...] 
No CVS access right now? 

That would explain my problems and tell me which way to turn. (Ergo,
try this on Mac OS X instead, since I know where the source is for that.)

--
Joel Rees   <rees(a)ddcom.co.jp&gt;
digitcom, inc.   株式会社デジコム
Kobe, Japan   [phone]
** <http://www.ddcom.co.jp> **

[Gain Paolo Mureddu]

D. D. Brierton wrote:

> I hope you won't mind if I don't reply in detail to your
> thoughtful and
> well-written reply. I don't want this to turn into a thread which
> exemplifies all the things I was decrying in my original posting. But I
> agree with much of what you say: yes, the passions and the volume with
> which they are expressed on this list is a sign of the health and vigour
> of the Fedora community; but at the same time it is also a danger for
> it. Many voices shouting loudly about nothing terribly important is not
> productive. Remember that at this moment, with CVS (or is it SVN now?)
> access still not opened up, these mailing lists are pretty much what
> constitutes the Fedora community. And if these flame wars continue then
> I think that community might dissipate horribly -- after all, how many
> Red Hat engineers post here nowadays? I think that there is a danger
> that people will leave this mailing list for good if it continues like
> it is, and that will be a bad thing for everyone. That was the only
> point I was trying to make.
>
> Best, Darren
>
>   
>  
Point well taken... A word of caution never hurts... And I see your 
point about the absense of Red Hat personnel on the list, however I also 
think that the whole point of Fedora was to be taken care by the 
community it could generate... Red Hat is still a great part of the 
distro and the communtiy and I don't think that will ever change (and I 
certainly hope it won't!!), but this also allows us, the users to 
experiment and take care of this huge baby the whole Fedora project is, 
either by supplyin users in trouble with support and answers to their 
inquiries even if they're the most basic ones... I myself try as hard as 
I can to avoid giving a freaking RTFM answer... Why? Because I know what 
does it feel like to be struck by such an answer as a newbie... However 
I try to also encourage study and investigation upon answering (I cannot 
always attain this, but I try)... And many more do their best too...

The dynamic nature of the list is what is making it quite hard to keep 
up with, a less dynamic means of communication (such as official 
community forums) are, in my opinon more suited to the amount of volume 
this list gets... being less dynamic means less overflow, you can go 
through threads at much more slow pace and it will even be a better way 
to encourage growth, or so I see it.

[Paul Howarth]

Gain Paolo Mureddu wrote:
>  The dynamic nature of the list is what is making it quite hard to
> keep 
>  up with, a less dynamic means of communication (such as official 
>  community forums) are, in my opinon more suited to the amount of volume 
>  this list gets... being less dynamic means less overflow, you can go 
>  through threads at much more slow pace and it will even be a better way 
>  to encourage growth, or so I see it. 
This mailing list is already available in forum format at:
http://fcp.homelinux.org/modules/newbb/viewforum.php?forum=10

I much prefer mailing lists to forums personally, and if this list was 
to become forum-only, I wouldn't be here. It's just too much hassle to 
trawl through forums IMHO.

Paul.

[crisppy fernandes]

getting this error.....
while installing pkgs thru yum.

Error: Requiring package webppliance-mysql-epilog-4.0.3-0119.fc not in
transaction set                                   nor in rpmdb
Error: Requiring package webppliance-tomcat4-epilog-4.0.3-0119.fc not
in transaction set                                   nor in rpmdb
Error: Requiring package webppliance-mivamerchant-epilog-4.0.3-0119.fc
not in transaction set    nor in rpmdb

any or some help welcome

-- 
Crisppy Fernandes
-- 
Crisppy Fernandes

[Gain Paolo Mureddu]

Paul Howarth wrote:

>  This mailing list is already available in forum format at:
>  http://fcp.homelinux.org/modules/newbb/viewforum.php?forum=10
>
>  I much prefer mailing lists to forums personally, and if this list was 
>  to become forum-only, I wouldn't be here. It's just too much hassle to 
>  trawl through forums IMHO.
>
>  Paul.
>  
While I also prefer mailing list, I cannot deny the usefulness of web 
forums, especially when there's lots of traffic like in this list, which 
can lead to inbox or mail-box (as a whole) flooding... Even though in a 
mailing list you also choose what to read and to pass, just as in a 
forum, you also are left to clean your mail-box, which is not needed in 
the web-forum... For not-so-populated mailing lists like the ALSA-users 
one, I'd rather use my e-mail client... though for a list with the 
amount of traffic this one has... I'd rather use the web interface.

[Paul Howarth]

Gain Paolo Mureddu wrote:
>  Paul Howarth wrote:
>  
> > This mailing list is already available in forum format at:
> > http://fcp.homelinux.org/modules/newbb/viewforum.php?forum=10
> >
> > I much prefer mailing lists to forums personally, and if this list was 
> > to become forum-only, I wouldn't be here. It's just too much hassle to 
> > trawl through forums IMHO.
> >
> > Paul.
> >
>  While I also prefer mailing list, I cannot deny the usefulness of web 
>  forums, especially when there's lots of traffic like in this list, which 
>  can lead to inbox or mail-box (as a whole) flooding... Even though in a 
>  mailing list you also choose what to read and to pass, just as in a 
>  forum, you also are left to clean your mail-box, which is not needed in 
>  the web-forum... For not-so-populated mailing lists like the ALSA-users 
>  one, I'd rather use my e-mail client... though for a list with the 
>  amount of traffic this one has... I'd rather use the web interface. 
I can certainly understand why many people would prefer to access this 
list as a forum, but I'm not one of them. Having the option of both, as 
at present, is the best way I think.

Paul.

[Gain Paolo Mureddu]

crisppy fernandes wrote:

> getting this error.....
> while installing pkgs thru yum.
>
> Error: Requiring package webppliance-mysql-epilog-4.0.3-0119.fc not in
> transaction set                                   nor in rpmdb
> Error: Requiring package webppliance-tomcat4-epilog-4.0.3-0119.fc not
> in transaction set                                   nor in rpmdb
> Error: Requiring package webppliance-mivamerchant-epilog-4.0.3-0119.fc
> not in transaction set    nor in rpmdb
>
> any or some help welcome
>
>   
>  
Just a suggestion, to avoid "forking", it'd be best if you created a
new 
e-mail/thread to the list so your issue may be better exposed and will 
be even looked at by those who could probably help you...

Now regarding the problem, seems like you don't have that package 
installed, and for some reason yum is not able to solve the dependency 
it has... What is the command you are using to install it?

[Paul Howarth]

crisppy fernandes wrote:
>  getting this error.....
>  while installing pkgs thru yum.
>  
>  Error: Requiring package webppliance-mysql-epilog-4.0.3-0119.fc not in
>  transaction set                                   nor in rpmdb
>  Error: Requiring package webppliance-tomcat4-epilog-4.0.3-0119.fc not
>  in transaction set                                   nor in rpmdb
>  Error: Requiring package webppliance-mivamerchant-epilog-4.0.3-0119.fc
>  not in transaction set    nor in rpmdb
>  
>  any or some help welcome 
Please do not hijack threads like this. Instead of using "Reply-To", 
compose a new mail to fedora-list(a)redhat.com. And use an appropriate 
"Subject" too. That way, more people are likely to notice your post and 
reply to it.

As for your problem, you'll need to provide more information. What is it 
that you are trying to install, and which repository do you expect it to 
be installed from? What do you have in your /etc/yum.conf?

Please start a new thread with the answers to these questions rather 
than replying to this message.

Paul.

[Dag Wieers]

On Fri, 28 Jan 2005, D. D. Brierton wrote:

>  I've been a RHL and FC user for quite some time. I've been on
> the
>  mailing lists, and had bugzilla accounts for a long time now. But this
>  mailing list is strangling itself. The volume is way too high. Look at
>  the beginning of the Fedora Project and see how many Red Hat engineers
>  regularly posted to this list, and now look at how many do (Tim Waugh
>  and Dave Jones make an occasional appearance here these days, and we're
>  lucky to have them). That's it. Who's driven them away? WE HAVE. 
A good email-client may help you cope with the volume. Threading is a 
must.

The fedora mailinglist has become a general forum for all things Fedora 
(except development and testing related items, which have their own 
mailinglists). It makes sense that most of the developers are on 
fedora-test and fedora-devel, rather than on this list.

It is a normal evolution with any project to move from a single to many 
mailinglists. It is not a threat, it makes things more viable.

Kind regards,
--   dag wieers,  dag(a)wieers.com,  http://dag.wieers.com/   --
[all I want is a warm bed and a kind word and unlimited power]

[Sharon Kimble]

Paul Howarth wrote:

>  Gain Paolo Mureddu wrote:
> > Paul Howarth wrote:
> > 
> >> This mailing list is already available in forum format at:
> >> http://fcp.homelinux.org/modules/newbb/viewforum.php?forum=10
> >>
> >> I much prefer mailing lists to forums personally, and if this list was
> >> to become forum-only, I wouldn't be here. It's just too much hassle to
> >> trawl through forums IMHO.
> >>
> >> Paul.
> >>
> > While I also prefer mailing list, I cannot deny the usefulness of web
> > forums, especially when there's lots of traffic like in this list, which
> > can lead to inbox or mail-box (as a whole) flooding... Even though in a
> > mailing list you also choose what to read and to pass, just as in a
> > forum, you also are left to clean your mail-box, which is not needed in
> > the web-forum... For not-so-populated mailing lists like the ALSA-users
> > one, I'd rather use my e-mail client... though for a list with the
> > amount of traffic this one has... I'd rather use the web interface.
>  
>  I can certainly understand why many people would prefer to access this
>  list as a forum, but I'm not one of them. Having the option of both, as
>  at present, is the best way I think.
>   
There is another option that no-one has mentioned yet, and that is to view
the mailing list as a 'news' list through the gmane servers. I'm currently
reading through this thread, and replying through 'KNode', so its obviously
working. :)

Just my 2p's worth
Sharon.
-- 
 12:30:39 up 1 day,  4:16,  2 users,  load average: 1.08, 1.13, 1.20
A taste of linux http://myweb.tiscali.co.uk/efever/index.html
efever http://www.efever.blogspot.com/
Fedora Core 3, KDE 3.3.2-1.2.3, OpenOffice 1.1.4
Registered Linux user 334501

[Ralf Corsepius]

On Fri, 2005-01-28 at 09:02 +0000, D. D. Brierton wrote:
>  I've been a RHL and FC user for quite some time. I've been on
> the
>  mailing lists, and had bugzilla accounts for a long time now. But this
>  mailing list is strangling itself. The volume is way too high. 
Well, learn to read
lists like these selectively ;-)

That's probably how most "regulars" are reading such lists.

May-be some folks should think about why some folks complain about html,
TOFU, etc.

The reason is simple: "regulars" dump the major numbers of all mails to
the trash bin to keep the amount of time within limits.

Only those mails with an interesting subject, were you can get the
intention within the first, say 10 lines, and which are easily readable
(90% of all html does not qualify as such) will be "browsed", even less
will be read, the rest goes straight to the trash-bin - unread :)

Ralf

[Robert]

Paul Howarth wrote:

<snip>

>  I much prefer mailing lists to forums personally, and if this list
> was 
>  to become forum-only, I wouldn't be here. It's just too much hassle to 
>  trawl through forums IMHO.
>  
>  Paul.
>   
Absolutely! Forums remind me of webmail which reminds me of AOL which 
reminds me of Windows and DUN and.....

Digest works swell for reading and it's no big deal to reply via gmane.

[David Hoffman]

On Fri, 28 Jan 2005 07:37:29 -0600, Robert <kerplop(a)sbcglobal.net&gt; wrote:
>  Paul Howarth wrote:
>  
>  Digest works swell for reading and it's no big deal to reply via gmane.
>   
Sure, as long as people remember to fix their subject lines when
replying to digest messages that works fine.

And I also agree that it helps to use an e-mail reader that can thread
properly. I was using my Yahoo account for these messages until a few
weeks ago, and now I am using Gmail. Gmail will automatically group
all threads into "conversations". It's easy to simply click on a
conversation and archive it. It's also easy to filter out
conversations and send them directly to the trash (i.e. the suck/flame
threads).

But I want to put my comments here as well about the original post. I
also agree with Darren (original poster) that the contents of these
messages lately have been out of hand.

Of course the last thing Darren wanted was for this thread to turn
into another "fedora sucks" or "fedora flame #1"... or was it? Look
how many responses there are already. This thread has nothing to do
with making contributions or helping solve people's problems. Darren
complains about flame-bait, and look what has happened.

This board should be about us making suggestions and helping each
other. If you want to start another message list just to talk about
message lists, go ahead. But leave this one for issues involving
Fedora, not the posters.

Is the Fedora Community under threat? Certainly, and it's because of
posts like this.

Just my 2 cents.

I don't claim to be an expert in anything... Linux, or mailing
lists... but I do try to help out other people, and in return, when I
have an issue, I hope other people will help me out.

-- 


David
-----------------------------------------------------------------------
There are only 10 kinds of people in this world,
those who understand binary, and those who don't.

[Rich Lafferty]

On Fri, Jan 28, 2005 at 10:59:58AM +0000, Paul Howarth <paul(a)city-fan.org&gt; wrote:
>  
>  This mailing list is already available in forum format at:
>  http://fcp.homelinux.org/modules/newbb/viewforum.php?forum=10 
Also, GMANE offers it as a blog, with replies as comments to a post:

  http://blog.gmane.org/gmane.linux.redhat.fedora.general

Or as a newsgroup (this seems to me to be the best way):

  nntp://news.gmane.org/gmane.linux.redhat.fedora.general

Or as an RSS feed:

  http://rss.gmane.org/gmane.linux.redhat.fedora.general

They've also got all the *other* OSS mailing lists you read, so it's
handy and all in once place. :-)

  -Rich

-- 
Rich Lafferty --------------+-----------------------------------------------
 Ottawa, Ontario, Canada    |  Save the Pacific Northwest Tree Octopus!
 http://www.lafferty.ca/    |    http://zapatopi.net/treeoctopus.html
rich(a)lafferty.ca -----------+-----------------------------------------------

[William Hooper]

D. D. Brierton said:
[snip]
>  Remember that at this moment, with CVS (or is it SVN now?)
>  access still not opened up, 
Oh?

https://www.redhat.com/archives/fedora-devel-list/2004-December/msg00605....

https://www.redhat.com/archives/fedora-devel-list/2004-December/msg00539....

-- 
William Hooper

[D. D. Brierton]

On Fri, 2005-01-28 at 11:35 -0500, William Hooper wrote:
>  D. D. Brierton said:
>  [snip]
>  > Remember that at this moment, with CVS (or is it SVN now?)
>  > access still not opened up,
>  
>  Oh?
>  
>  https://www.redhat.com/archives/fedora-devel-list/2004-December/msg00605....
>  
>  https://www.redhat.com/archives/fedora-devel-list/2004-December/msg00539.... 
Ah. That's great news. I didn't notice this being announced.

Best, Darren

-- 
=====================================================================
D. D. Brierton            darren(a)dzr-web.com          www.dzr-web.com
       Trying is the first step towards failure (Homer Simpson)
=====================================================================

[Bernd Radinger]

On Fri, 28 Jan 2005 09:02:52 +0000, D. D. Brierton <darren(a)dzr-web.com&gt; wrote:
>  I've been a RHL and FC user for quite some time. I've been on
> the
>  mailing lists, and had bugzilla accounts for a long time now. But this
>  mailing list is strangling itself. The volume is way too high. 
the chance to move some of the volume to the newly created lists such
as: fedora-extras-list

https://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/fedora-extras-list

-- 
Bernd

[John Mahowald]

Not all of this volume problem is because of flame wars and other
nonsense. Frequently difficult problems come up that nobody reading
can answer. The answer to "has anyone else encounter this problem?" is
almost always no. And there is a limited number of people who are
experienced and generous of their time to answer questions.

This problem exists on web forums too, such as
http://www.fedoraforum.org/ (on which I am a moderator). Currently we
have over 10,000 registered users and hundreds of posts a day.

Hopefully the community will achieve "critical mass" so that there are
enough experienced users to answer the flood of questions.

[Kam Leo]

On Sun, 30 Jan 2005 17:44:15 -0600, John Mahowald <jpmahowald(a)gmail.com&gt; wrote:
>  Not all of this volume problem is because of flame wars and other
>  nonsense. Frequently difficult problems come up that nobody reading
>  can answer. The answer to "has anyone else encounter this problem?" is
>  almost always no. And there is a limited number of people who are
>  experienced and generous of their time to answer questions.
>  
>  This problem exists on web forums too, such as
>  http://www.fedoraforum.org/ (on which I am a moderator). Currently we
>  have over 10,000 registered users and hundreds of posts a day.
>  
>  Hopefully the community will achieve "critical mass" so that there are
>  enough experienced users to answer the flood of questions.
>   
Many posters are asking the same questions.  Fedora Core needs to have
a more proactive FAQ with either more frequent updates or a better
positioned link on their web page.

[Jonathan Berry]

On Fri, 28 Jan 2005 12:49:23 +0100 (CET), Dag Wieers <dag(a)wieers.com&gt; wrote:
>  On Fri, 28 Jan 2005, D. D. Brierton wrote:
>  
>  > I've been a RHL and FC user for quite some time. I've been on the
>  > mailing lists, and had bugzilla accounts for a long time now. But this
>  > mailing list is strangling itself. The volume is way too high. Look at
>  > the beginning of the Fedora Project and see how many Red Hat engineers
>  > regularly posted to this list, and now look at how many do (Tim Waugh
>  > and Dave Jones make an occasional appearance here these days, and we're
>  > lucky to have them). That's it. Who's driven them away? WE HAVE.
>  
>  A good email-client may help you cope with the volume. Threading is a
>  must.
>  
>  The fedora mailinglist has become a general forum for all things Fedora
>  (except development and testing related items, which have their own
>  mailinglists). It makes sense that most of the developers are on
>  fedora-test and fedora-devel, rather than on this list.
>  
>  It is a normal evolution with any project to move from a single to many
>  mailinglists. It is not a threat, it makes things more viable. 
I've thought about suggesting that the list be split into multiple
mailing lists.  Like, perhaps fedora-help and fedora-community. 
fedora-help could be used by people who are having a problem, and
fedora-community could have the flame wars, and the slightly OT
threads such as "What is your favorite..." "Why do we (do|not do) it
this way..." etc.  Thoughts on the idea?
The fundamental problem with multiple lists seems to get people to use
the correct mailing list for their issue.  There are already several
RedHat mailing lists available, but some seem to not get as used as
this one.  For example, the AMD64 list gets almost no traffic.  And
how many threads are here about AMD64?  They aren't out of place,
since they are Fedora related, but it seems so few know about the
other list.  There is also fedora-selinux for selinux issues, but I
don't subscribe to it so I don't know what kind of volume they get.
One of the big problems with list volume seems to be that most people
seem to not search the archives, which I understand.  I don't
generally want to search the archives when someone can probably answer
my question easily, but it would greatly reduce the list volume if
people just did that instead of posting a question that has been
beaten to death already.  Something that might be good is to have an
etiquette page and an official list FAQ page that people had to look
at during the subscribe process.  I don't know if anyone would
actually read these, but it might be worth a shot.  This could be very
helpful for new people and potentially reduce redundant or
flame-provoking posts.
I agree that the list volume is way too large to keep up with
everything.  I have learned a lot from this list and have tried to
contribute where I can, but it can take up way too much time.  In an
effort to help with this, I created a filter that looks for emails
with areas of knowledge/interest mentioned in them and adds them to a
seperate label.  That has helped some, but even that selection gets
several threads each day.
These were just some thoughts I've had on the topic.

Jonathan

[David Hoffman]

On Sun, 30 Jan 2005 15:54:13 -0800, Kam Leo <kam.leo(a)gmail.com&gt; wrote:
>  On Sun, 30 Jan 2005 17:44:15 -0600, John Mahowald
> <jpmahowald(a)gmail.com&gt; wrote:
>  Many posters are asking the same questions.  Fedora Core needs to have
>  a more proactive FAQ with either more frequent updates or a better
>  positioned link on their web page.
>   
Well if people would learn to search the archives before posting a
repeat message, that would resolve a lot of issues as well. Then the
FAQ doesn't need to be extensive, and can start with an item about how
to search the archives.




David
-----------------------------------------------------------------------
There are only 10 kinds of people in this world,
those who understand binary, and those who don't.

Solution Coming Re: Fedora Community: Under threat?

[Warren Togami]

D. D. Brierton wrote:
>  I've been a RHL and FC user for quite some time. I've been on
> the
>  mailing lists, and had bugzilla accounts for a long time now. But this
>  mailing list is strangling itself. The volume is way too high. Look at
>  the beginning of the Fedora Project and see how many Red Hat engineers
>  regularly posted to this list, and now look at how many do (Tim Waugh
>  and Dave Jones make an occasional appearance here these days, and we're
>  lucky to have them). That's it. Who's driven them away? WE HAVE.
>   
Totally in agreement, please read my post on this subject here.

http://www.livejournal.com/users/wtogami/2005/02/04/

Key to the problem is that mailing lists are far from the best medium 
for end-user support.  We need to steer end-users to an entirely 
different medium in order to scale effectively.  Official project change 
in that direction is happening soon.  Read the link above for details.

Warren Togami
wtogami(a)redhat.com

Solution Coming Re: Fedora Community: Under threat?

[Rahul Sundaram]

On Sat, 05 Feb 2005 02:00:37 -1000, Warren Togami <wtogami(a)redhat.com&gt; wrote:
>  D. D. Brierton wrote:
>  > I've been a RHL and FC user for quite some time. I've been on the
>  > mailing lists, and had bugzilla accounts for a long time now. But this
>  > mailing list is strangling itself. The volume is way too high. Look at
>  > the beginning of the Fedora Project and see how many Red Hat engineers
>  > regularly posted to this list, and now look at how many do (Tim Waugh
>  > and Dave Jones make an occasional appearance here these days, and we're
>  > lucky to have them). That's it. Who's driven them away? WE HAVE.
>  >
>  
>  Totally in agreement, please read my post on this subject here.
>  
>  http://www.livejournal.com/users/wtogami/2005/02/04/
>  
>  Key to the problem is that mailing lists are far from the best medium
>  for end-user support.  We need to steer end-users to an entirely
>  different medium in order to scale effectively.  Official project change
>  in that direction is happening soon.  Read the link above for details.
>   
while I agree with the problem, I dont agree with the solution. forums
are going to worsen the problem rather than resolve it. what we need
is a good set of guidelines thats *documented* well in an official
manner

while the community itself can enforce these guidelines, it needs more
official direction from the fedora project

-- 
Regards,
Rahul Sundaram

Solution Coming Re: Fedora Community: Under threat?

[jdow]

From: "Warren Togami" <wtogami(a)redhat.com&gt;

>  http://www.livejournal.com/users/wtogami/2005/02/04/
>  
>  Key to the problem is that mailing lists are far from the best medium 
>  for end-user support.  We need to steer end-users to an entirely 
>  different medium in order to scale effectively.  Official project change 
>  in that direction is happening soon.  Read the link above for details. 
Eeeewwwww, web forums. Bye guys.
{^_^}

Solution Coming Re: Fedora Community: Under threat?

[D. D. Brierton]

On Sat, 2005-02-05 at 02:00 -1000, Warren Togami wrote:

>  Totally in agreement, please read my post on this subject here.
>  
>  http://www.livejournal.com/users/wtogami/2005/02/04/ 
Warren, thanks for posting here. Funnily enough I'd already read the
above on your blog (via the Fedora People planet), and was planning on
posting something to this list about it.

Obviously, you know that I agree with you about what the problems are.
(I wrote original post you replied to.) But I don't know that I agree
with your proposed solution. I personally find web forums (e.g. the
nvidia linux forum) totally unusable -- I can never find anything on
them, I find them hard to navigate, etc. Also, you are effectively
ghettoising end users (and we're not all clueless newbies, you know)
from the developers, and I'm not sure that's a good thing. I think that
what we need is a greater effort on the part of us, the community, to
enforce good behaviour, so that the developers might eventually feel
that they might actually come back to the more general purpose lists.

Having said that, it may turn out that you have the most kick-arse web
forum software in mind that would allay my doubts. Personally I find
mailing lists to be quite clunky, even with a good mail reader like
Evolution with filtering and threading. I never understood why open
source projects have such a penchant for mailing lists, when clearly
that isn't really what email was designed for and is what usenet/NNTP is
designed for. Especially given that you can set up a newsserver which
requires a username and password to access it, and which can be set to
only carry local groups and retain the messages forever (which would
solve many of the problems involved with searching the lists as well).

Anyway, I'm all for thinking of ways to improve how we as a community
communicate with each other. But I'm sceptical that web forums are the
way forward.

Best, Darren

-- 
=====================================================================
D. D. Brierton            darren(a)dzr-web.com          www.dzr-web.com
       Trying is the first step towards failure (Homer Simpson)
=====================================================================

Solution Coming Re: Fedora Community: Under threat?

[Mike Klinke]

On Saturday 05 February 2005 06:00, Warren Togami wrote:
>  Totally in agreement, please read my post on this subject here.
>
>  http://www.livejournal.com/users/wtogami/2005/02/04/
>
>  Key to the problem is that mailing lists are far from the best
>  medium for end-user support.  We need to steer end-users to an
>  entirely different medium in order to scale effectively. 
>  Official project change in that direction is happening soon. 
>  Read the link above for details.
>  
To echo jdow's sentiment, "eeeewwwwwwww!"  If web forums are the 
future, I know from past experiences, I'm unlikely to visit very 
often since they're such a royal pain in the keester to use.  Will 
the messages at least be archived in a sensible manner so that they 
can be downloaded and read in a normal mail reader offline?

Regards, Mike Klinke

Solution Coming Re: Fedora Community: Under threat?

[Matthew Miller]

On Sat, Feb 05, 2005 at 02:00:37AM -1000, Warren Togami wrote:
>  Key to the problem is that mailing lists are far from the best medium
>
>  for end-user support.  We need to steer end-users to an entirely 
>  different medium in order to scale effectively.  Official project change 
>  in that direction is happening soon.  Read the link above for details. 
I strenuously disagree with your point #1:

  1) This would shift ONLY end-user lists, not development lists. Those same
  engineers are likely to ignore the end-user support lists anyway. Nothing
  is lost.

Actually, some of us like to help out on the end-user side of things *and*
hate most web forums.

Please at the very, very least, don't do something like the widespread
non-threading horrible interface "BB" style forums. Ideally, it'd be
something like this: <http://news.lugnet.com/>;.

Additionally, like Lugnet, it'd be nice if the forums had an NNTP backend.
The "how to do a discussion group" problem is already solved, and most web
forums just reinvent that wheel horribly badly.

I think a web forum could be very helpful to many newer-to-the-net users,
but there's no reason not to eat our cake *and* have it too.

-- 
Matthew Miller            mattdm(a)mattdm.org        <http://www.mattdm.org/>
-->  Fedora Users & Developers Conference, hosted by Boston University  <--
February 18th, 2005                 <http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/FUDCon1>

Solution Coming Re: Fedora Community: Under threat?

[James Wilkinson]

So what about those of us who are trying to support the end users? Will
we at least get web fora that are usable for us?

Will I be able, as an individual user, to flag threads and posts for
later attention (when I've had a chance to think, or got to the right
location with the right software to check out a problem)?

Will the software automatically mark which threads and which posts I've
read, to help me catch up with what I've read and what I haven't read?

(And that's without such niceties as "scoring based on poster and on
topic", which is what keeps the list sane for me).

I know you say that "fedora-list and fedora-test-list would NOT close".
But you will still need knowledgeable people on the fora to do the user
support, and we're going to need fora that are enjoyable enough for us
to want to use them. If we find we're battling the software, if we move
on, that's not going to do much for the community you have built up.

And speaking of which, I think the concept of FUDcon as "a place for the
community for meet" is going to be incredibly divisive *if* you assume
that the people there represent the community.

I think it's going to be very North America-centric. I just don't have
time or money to get over to Boston on the amount of notice that we were
given. Fedora users are not necessarily commercial users.

Get opinions there, sure. Come up with ideas, float concepts, have
arguments. But if decisions are made "having consulted the community",
you're kidding yourselves.

Maybe we need separate fedora-user and fedora-directions fora.

Maybe it's time for me to re-examine where and how I want to help.

James.
-- 
James Wilkinson       | DON'T be put off by "horror stories" spread by
Exeter    Devon    UK | others.  People who talk about death and serious
E-mail address: james | injury are very rarely the ones who have actually
@westexe.demon.co.uk  | suffered such things.  -- Adrian Plass

Solution Coming Re: Fedora Community: Under threat?

[Matthew Miller]

On Sat, Feb 05, 2005 at 04:25:10PM +0000, James Wilkinson wrote:
>  I think it's going to be very North America-centric. I just
> don't have
>  time or money to get over to Boston on the amount of notice that we were
>  given. Fedora users are not necessarily commercial users.
>  Get opinions there, sure. Come up with ideas, float concepts, have
>  arguments. But if decisions are made "having consulted the community",
>  you're kidding yourselves. 
Of course.
-- 
Matthew Miller            mattdm(a)mattdm.org        <http://www.mattdm.org/>
-->  Fedora Users & Developers Conference, hosted by Boston University  <--
February 18th, 2005                 <http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/FUDCon1>

Solution Coming Re: Fedora Community: Under threat?

[Gustavo Seabra]

Rahul Sundaram wrote:

> On Sat, 05 Feb 2005 02:00:37 -1000, Warren Togami
> <wtogami(a)redhat.com&gt; wrote:
>   
>
> >D. D. Brierton wrote:
> >    
> >
> >>I've been a RHL and FC user for quite some time. I've been on the
> >>mailing lists, and had bugzilla accounts for a long time now. But this
> >>mailing list is strangling itself. The volume is way too high. Look at
> >>the beginning of the Fedora Project and see how many Red Hat engineers
> >>regularly posted to this list, and now look at how many do (Tim Waugh
> >>and Dave Jones make an occasional appearance here these days, and we're
> >>lucky to have them). That's it. Who's driven them away? WE HAVE.
> >>
> >>      
> >>
> >Totally in agreement, please read my post on this subject here.
> >
> >http://www.livejournal.com/users/wtogami/2005/02/04/
> >
> >Key to the problem is that mailing lists are far from the best medium
> >for end-user support.  We need to steer end-users to an entirely
> >different medium in order to scale effectively.  Official project change
> >in that direction is happening soon.  Read the link above for details.
> >
> >    
> >
>
> while I agree with the problem, I dont agree with the solution. forums
> are going to worsen the problem rather than resolve it. what we need
> is a good set of guidelines thats *documented* well in an official
> manner
>
> while the community itself can enforce these guidelines, it needs more
> official direction from the fedora project
>
>   
>  
Hi,

I agree. Personally, I learned *a lot* from this list, but I'm sure I'd 
just have given up it it was a web forum. They just plain suck. A *much* 
better solution would just be to make it a usenet discussion group.

By the way, what is the problem with having too many users here? isn't 
this the fedora-/users/ group? If there are too many user/dumb 
questions, maybe you could just start a usenet called /fedora-help/ or 
something like it. Then the /fedora-users/  title would be preserved for 
the other discussions...

-- 
----------------------------------
Gustavo Seabra - Graduate Student
Chemistry Department
Kansas State University
----------------------------------
If at first you don't succeed...
      ...skydiving is not for you.

Solution Coming Re: Fedora Community: Under threat?

[Rodolfo J. Paiz]

On Sat, 2005-02-05 at 02:00 -1000, Warren Togami wrote:
>  Key to the problem is that mailing lists are far from the best medium
>
>  for end-user support.  We need to steer end-users to an entirely 
>  different medium in order to scale effectively.  Official project change 
>  in that direction is happening soon.  Read the link above for details.
>   
We have at least two problems: reduced participation and interest from
developers, and the ability and interest to help USERS who, in their
huge majority, do not have that "engineer" mentality nor any idea of how
to use many other features of the Internet/Linux community that the
veterans rely upon.

Your solution ignores the users, particularly users who help others. A
*very* important omission.

I personally use a few web forums (particularly http://www.piperchat.com
since I am an active pilot), and their usability, convenience, and
scalability is severely limited. I have to go check to see if there are
new messages, the web interface introduces needless delay, I *must* be
online at the time I want to read messages (that's a biggie for many
people)... there are a lot of objections.

Remember that *quite a lot* of the support users get is from other
users. I've been helping others on this and redhat lists since at least
eight years ago... and I can tell you with 100% certainty, my
participation and contribution WILL GO DOWN if we move to web fora. They
are simply more difficult, more time-consuming, less convenient, and
less flexible than mailing lists.

That being said, I do also agree that Usenet solved this problem, and
did it extraordinarily well, ages ago. Web fora are reinventions of that
particular wheel, and we now have news-to-mail gateways, GUI news
clients, web interfaces to NNTP... why make an inferior solution the
primary one? Create a newsgroup hierarchy, set up a gateway to the web
for those users who want/need it, and we're done.

Ranking the three possible solutions by the functionality and benefits
they can provide to this community as a whole, and attempting to include
in my thought process developers, expert users, and newbies, I believe
the winners are:

	1. Usenet hierarchy
	2. Mailing lists
	3. Web fora

I am always pleased and happy to see Red Hat's concern for its users,
and I have never met (virtually, even) a Red Hat employee whom I didn't
respect and like. That is a Great Thing [tm]. In this case, however, I
vehemently disagree with your proposed solution. I think it's horrible
and will significantly harm the interactions of this community.

I thought this was going to be a brief note, but hey... just say "no" to
web fora. Bad, bad idea.

Cheers,

-- 
Rodolfo J. Paiz <rpaiz(a)simpaticus.com&gt;

Solution Coming Re: Fedora Community: Under threat?

[James Wilkinson]

Gustavo Seabra wrote:
>  By the way, what is the problem with having too many users here?
> isn't 
>  this the fedora-/users/ group? If there are too many user/dumb 
>  questions, maybe you could just start a usenet called /fedora-help/ or 
>  something like it. Then the /fedora-users/  title would be preserved for 
>  the other discussions... 
You know, I've been on this list for getting on to a year. I think this
is the first time I've seen anyone from Red Hat address how this mailing
list is working.

Wouldn't it have been nice: wouldn't it have been *community-minded*:
wouldn't it have been polite for Red Hat to have asked *us*, on *this
list* "is there a problem? What can be done?" Rather than come up with
solutions on their own?

Because I can think of a very easy way to improve this list: use the
community! Use volunteers! A busy list *is* a community, and it's
probably the biggest one Fedora has.

 * Reword the standard list signature! Put a link to the FAQ in there.
   At least have a "before posting, please read this link".

   If Red Hat Legal wants a FAQ that doesn't mention "how to install MP3
   support", fine. We can do that. We can mention "other RPM
   repositories" (and explain the legal situation) if necessary. Get
   some trusted people from the community (like the current
   fedorafaq.org maintainers, if they're happy to work like that). If
   you must, and get them to sign a legal form.

   And make all this "please read this" obvious when users join up.

   There are standard ways of handling Frequently Asked Questions that
   have been in use for well over a decade. If frequently asked
   questions are a problem, and this is supposed to be a community-
   oriented list, *use the community standard solution*.

 * We need a "posting norms" guideline that we can point out when
   necessary. It doesn't have to be long: this might do for a start:

        "Please:
         No HTML
         Trim quotes as much as is reasonable
         Don't quote an entire digest
         Put your text underneath what you're replying to
         Keep it civil!"

 * Have *some* way for issues raised on this list to be brought back to
   the Fedora developers. If developers can't read the whole list, have
   a few trusted volunteers who can summarise in a line or two and
   provide links.

 * If the list owners aren't going to read the list, let them have
   trusted volunteers who can point out situations that need attention.
   And then, at *least*, post a "keep it civil!" note!

Mutt highlights for me, in red, all the e-mails from redhat.com
addresses. Whenever someone from Red Hat posts to the list, I read it.

So I don't think I've missed anything from them.

I'm posting this not in the hopes that anyone from Red Hat will take it
seriously, but so at least I know I tried.

Sorry. Rant mode off.

James.

-- 
James Wilkinson       | For example, in year 1 that useless letter "c" would
Exeter    Devon    UK | be dropped to be sure they wouldn't deliver it broken
E-mail address: james | into two pieces.
@westexe.demon.co.uk  |     -- The megahal program, trained on my quote file.

Oh look, FUD is right across the street from my office

[Jason Powers]

-->  Fedora Users & Developers Conference, hosted by Boston University  <--
February 18th, 2005 
<http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/FUDCon1>

Think I'll sneak a day off work to stop by. I started with FC1 and ended 
up running about 10 Fedora Core servers, our NCD users liked them so 
much we 'retired' the sparcs we were using. I don't usually do these 
sorts of meetings, but it would be cool to see what goes on. The website 
doesn't list a fee, is this $1000/minute like Usenix?

Jason Powers

Solution Coming Re: Fedora Community: Under threat?

[Robert]

jdow wrote:
>  From: "Warren Togami" <wtogami(a)redhat.com&gt;
>  
> >http://www.livejournal.com/users/wtogami/2005/02/04/
> >
> >Key to the problem is that mailing lists are far from the best medium 
> >for end-user support.  We need to steer end-users to an entirely 
> >different medium in order to scale effectively.  Official project change 
> >in that direction is happening soon.  Read the link above for details.
>  
>  
>  Eeeewwwww, web forums. Bye guys.
>  {^_^}
>   
Yes.  And then there was this shopkeeper who was upset that his shop was 
so disorderly until he ran off all his customers. EXCELLENT SOLUTION!

Solution Coming Re: Fedora Community: Under threat?

[David Curry]

Warren Togami wrote:

>  D. D. Brierton wrote:
>
> > I've been a RHL and FC user for quite some time. I've been on the
> > mailing lists, and had bugzilla accounts for a long time now. But this
> > mailing list is strangling itself. The volume is way too high. Look at
> > the beginning of the Fedora Project and see how many Red Hat engineers
> > regularly posted to this list, and now look at how many do (Tim Waugh
> > and Dave Jones make an occasional appearance here these days, and we're
> > lucky to have them). That's it. Who's driven them away? WE HAVE.
> >
>  Totally in agreement, please read my post on this subject here.
>
>  http://www.livejournal.com/users/wtogami/2005/02/04/
>
>  Key to the problem is that mailing lists are far from the best medium 
>  for end-user support.  We need to steer end-users to an entirely 
>  different medium in order to scale effectively.  Official project 
>  change in that direction is happening soon.  Read the link above for 
>  details.
>
>  Warren Togami
>  wtogami(a)redhat.com
>  
Speaking as an end-user, I agree that the current mailing list leaves 
something to be desired as a medium for "end-user" support.  But then, 
end-user support has never been Red Hat's strongest suit in my book. 

Drawing on first hand experiences in installing and running RH 4.1/4.2, 
RH 7.1, RH 8.0, and now Fedora Core 2, I say unequivocally that the 
fedora-list has provided the strongest end-user support.  Fundamentally, 
the proposition that Red Hat has ever considered providing support for 
ALL types of Fedora users an objective is dubious.  That point was 
driven home by Red Hat's change in business plan to offer official 
support only for RHEL and unilateral suspension of support agreements 
for RH 8 (five months early in my case) and RH 9.  Spare us the 
pretensions of effecting change to improve or enhance support for end-users.

If Red hat wants to limit the population of fedora-list to system 
administrators, it should make that point clear at the outset.  If Red 
Hat wants to promote continuing expansion of the linux market and the 
market for linux support services, it will lend greater support to SOHO 
desktop end-users.   Expansion of the linux market -- and breadth and 
depth of de-bugging feedback to Red Hat for product improvement --  can 
be achieved at minimum expense and effort by strengthening Fedora Core 
Release notes in a few places and posting new FAQs relevant to 
particular problem areas which surface with each new release.  
Jettisoning of detailed list archives in favor of some issue 
summaries/abstracts for use in FAQs would also be helpful to both Red 
Hat and users.  All arcive users encounter a tremendous amount of noise 
in searching for information relevant to their issue of concern.

As for the absence of regular postings to fedora-list by Red Hat 
engineers, maybe that is due more to the emergence of rapid responses to 
problems and issues from knowledgeable members of the Fedora 
community-at-large than to any other factor.

Oh look, FUD is right across the street from my office

[Matthew Miller]

On Sun, Feb 06, 2005 at 05:17:19AM -0500, Jason Powers wrote:
>  Think I'll sneak a day off work to stop by. I started with FC1
> and ended 
>  up running about 10 Fedora Core servers, our NCD users liked them so 
>  much we 'retired' the sparcs we were using. I don't usually do these 
>  sorts of meetings, but it would be cool to see what goes on. The website 
>  doesn't list a fee, is this $1000/minute like Usenix? 
Um, yes. Payable in cash directly to me.

No, wait -- it's free. But we've got limited space and it's rapidly filling
up. Registration info at <http://fedoraproject.org/fudcon/>;. (Hmm; I should
change my sig to point to that page.)

-- 
Matthew Miller            mattdm(a)mattdm.org        <http://www.mattdm.org/>
-->  Fedora Users & Developers Conference, hosted by Boston University  <--
February 18th, 2005                 <http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/FUDCon1>

Solution Coming Re: Fedora Community: Under threat?

[Gustavo Seabra]

Robert wrote:

>  jdow wrote:
>
> > From: "Warren Togami" <wtogami(a)redhat.com&gt;
> >
> >> http://www.livejournal.com/users/wtogami/2005/02/04/
> >>
> >> Key to the problem is that mailing lists are far from the best 
> >> medium for end-user support.  We need to steer end-users to an 
> >> entirely different medium in order to scale effectively.  Official 
> >> project change in that direction is happening soon.  Read the link 
> >> above for details.
> >
> >
> >
> > Eeeewwwww, web forums. Bye guys.
> > {^_^}
> >
>
>  Yes.  And then there was this shopkeeper who was upset that his shop 
>  was so disorderly until he ran off all his customers. EXCELLENT SOLUTION!
>  
The point here is not /his/ solution, but I think he's just expressing 
what he'd do (and I believe most of us dumb-mortal-users would do as 
well) if the RedHat guys go ahead with this idea. That is definitely a 
very bad idea, one that would probably jeopardize the whole 
"fedora-users-community" idea. There's been plenty of solutions proposed 
here on this thread there are *much* better than the dreaded web forums.

I second JDow's opinion. / Eeeewwwww, web forums. Bye guys. /. If they 
*want* ideas, they'll certainly find within this (so far) community.

-- 
----------------------------------
Gustavo Seabra - Graduate Student
Chemistry Department
Kansas State University
----------------------------------
If at first you don't succeed...
      ...skydiving is not for you.

Solution Coming Re: Fedora Community: Under threat?

[Gain Paolo Mureddu]

Gustavo Seabra wrote:

>  Robert wrote:
>
> > jdow wrote:
> >
> >> From: "Warren Togami" <wtogami(a)redhat.com&gt;
> >>
> >>> http://www.livejournal.com/users/wtogami/2005/02/04/
> >>>
> >>> Key to the problem is that mailing lists are far from the best 
> >>> medium for end-user support.  We need to steer end-users to an 
> >>> entirely different medium in order to scale effectively.  Official 
> >>> project change in that direction is happening soon.  Read the link 
> >>> above for details.
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >> Eeeewwwww, web forums. Bye guys.
> >> {^_^}
> >>
> >
> > Yes.  And then there was this shopkeeper who was upset that his shop 
> > was so disorderly until he ran off all his customers. EXCELLENT 
> > SOLUTION!
> >
>  The point here is not /his/ solution, but I think he's just expressing 
>  what he'd do (and I believe most of us dumb-mortal-users would do as 
>  well) if the RedHat guys go ahead with this idea. That is definitely a 
>  very bad idea, one that would probably jeopardize the whole 
>  "fedora-users-community" idea. There's been plenty of solutions 
>  proposed here on this thread there are *much* better than the dreaded 
>  web forums.
>
>  I second JDow's opinion. / Eeeewwwww, web forums. Bye guys. /. If they 
>  *want* ideas, they'll certainly find within this (so far) community.
>  
I still don't get why are Web forums so dreaded, but that's just me... I 
haven't seen a *single* reason why not to make it so... Unless, of 
course you still want to recieve 500+ e-mail messages if you are away of 
your computer for a day or two and could not cancel mail delivery 
temporarily (if you don't get the digest, of course). To each their own, 
I just don't get why people don't like the web forums idea... Maybe a 
private NTTP server would be more suitable for this, where Red Hat could 
even set the caducity of messages. You still need a helper application 
to read the messages like Evolution, Thunderbird or whatever, and still 
avoid having *your* inbox flooded.

Solution Coming Re: Fedora Community: Under threat?

[Felipe Alfaro Solana]

On 6 Feb 2005, at 19:32, Gain Paolo Mureddu wrote:

>  I still don't get why are Web forums so dreaded, but that's
> just me... 
>  I haven't seen a *single* reason why not to make it so... Unless, of 
>  course you still want to recieve 500+ e-mail messages if you are away 
>  of your computer for a day or two and could not cancel mail delivery 
>  temporarily (if you don't get the digest, of course). To each their 
>  own, I just don't get why people don't like the web forums idea... 
>  Maybe a private NTTP server would be more suitable for this, where Red 
>  Hat could even set the caducity of messages. You still need a helper 
>  application to read the messages like Evolution, Thunderbird or 
>  whatever, and still avoid having *your* inbox flooded. 
The main problem I see with a web interface is that's usually difficult 
to find things as search capabilities are limited by the remote engine 
and/or remote storage policy. By using NNTP I can stay informed of new 
messages, I can use a nive GUI application of my choice (like 
Thunderbird) and *I* decide the storage policy: if I want to keep every 
message for several years, I can.

NNTP is much more flexible for me.

Solution Coming Re: Fedora Community: Under threat?

[Joel Jaeggli]

On Sun, 6 Feb 2005, Gain Paolo Mureddu wrote:

> > 
>  I still don't get why are Web forums so dreaded, but that's just me... I 
>  haven't seen a *single* reason why not to make it so... 
It's a control issue... When you have a few thousand messages a day to 
parse you're before off doing it in the client of your on choosing, with 
your own filtering and your onw tools that with a web-interface which not 
matter how rich and well intentioned is just another bulliten-board 
interface. In my case the combo of procmail - spamassassin - duplicate 
filtering- pgp envelope - pine. allows me to keep track of and partcipate 
in a heck of a lot more mailing lists than just this one. it isn't even 
the highest volume one if you can believe that. if it were a web forum I'd 
probably dredge it with google but I certainly wouldn't keep up with it.

joelja

>  Unless, of course you 
>  still want to recieve 500+ e-mail messages if you are away of your computer 
>  for a day or two and could not cancel mail delivery temporarily (if you don't 
>  get the digest, of course). To each their own, I just don't get why people 
>  don't like the web forums idea... Maybe a private NTTP server would be more 
>  suitable for this, where Red Hat could even set the caducity of messages. You 
>  still need a helper application to read the messages like Evolution, 
>  Thunderbird or whatever, and still avoid having *your* inbox flooded.
>
>  
-- 
-------------------------------------------------------------------------- 
Joel Jaeggli  	       Unix Consulting 	       joelja(a)darkwing.uoregon.edu 
GPG Key Fingerprint:     5C6E 0104 BAF0 40B0 5BD3 C38B F000 35AB B67F 56B2

Solution Coming Re: Fedora Community: Under threat?

[Gustavo Seabra]

Felipe Alfaro Solana wrote:

>  On 6 Feb 2005, at 19:32, Gain Paolo Mureddu wrote:
>
> > I still don't get why are Web forums so dreaded, but that's just 
> > me... I haven't seen a *single* reason why not to make it so... 
> > Unless, of course you still want to recieve 500+ e-mail messages if 
> > you are away of your computer for a day or two and could not cancel 
> > mail delivery temporarily (if you don't get the digest, of course). 
> > To each their own, I just don't get why people don't like the web 
> > forums idea... Maybe a private NTTP server would be more suitable for 
> > this, where Red Hat could even set the caducity of messages. You 
> > still need a helper application to read the messages like Evolution, 
> > Thunderbird or whatever, and still avoid having *your* inbox flooded.
>
>
>  The main problem I see with a web interface is that's usually 
>  difficult to find things as search capabilities are limited by the 
>  remote engine and/or remote storage policy. By using NNTP I can stay 
>  informed of new messages, I can use a nive GUI application of my 
>  choice (like Thunderbird) and *I* decide the storage policy: if I want 
>  to keep every message for several years, I can.
>
>  NNTP is much more flexible for me.
>  
And, it /can/ have a web interface, for those who like web fora.

-- 
----------------------------------
Gustavo Seabra - Graduate Student
Chemistry Department
Kansas State University
----------------------------------
If at first you don't succeed...
      ...skydiving is not for you.

Solution Coming Re: Fedora Community: Under threat?

[Matthew Miller]

On Sun, Feb 06, 2005 at 12:32:44PM -0600, Gain Paolo Mureddu wrote:
>  I still don't get why are Web forums so dreaded, but that's
> just me... I 
>  haven't seen a *single* reason why not to make it so... Unless, of  
They tend to have very poor interfaces, with no threading, and no good way
of keeping track of what posts you've read and which you haven't. Most
basically present a "spreadsheet" of posts.

>  I just don't get why people don't like the web forums idea...
> Maybe a 
>  private NTTP server would be more suitable for this, where Red Hat could 
>  even set the caducity of messages. You still need a helper application 
>  to read the messages like Evolution, Thunderbird or whatever, and still 
>  avoid having *your* inbox flooded. 
With any half-decent mail client/environment, the fedora lists don't need to
go to your inbox.

But I think the *best* solution is an NNTP backend with an available web
front end, because I recognize that many people don't know any better. *big
grin*



-- 
Matthew Miller            mattdm(a)mattdm.org        <http://www.mattdm.org/>
-->  Fedora Users & Developers Conference, hosted by Boston University  <--
February 18th, 2005                       <http://fedoraproject.org/fudcon/>

Solution Coming Re: Fedora Community: Under threat?

[Gain Paolo Mureddu]

Matthew Miller wrote:

> On Sun, Feb 06, 2005 at 12:32:44PM -0600, Gain Paolo Mureddu wrote:
>   
>
> >I still don't get why are Web forums so dreaded, but that's just me... I 
> >haven't seen a *single* reason why not to make it so... Unless, of 
> >    
> >
>
> They tend to have very poor interfaces, with no threading, and no good way
> of keeping track of what posts you've read and which you haven't. Most
> basically present a "spreadsheet" of posts.
>
>   
>
> >I just don't get why people don't like the web forums idea... Maybe a 
> >private NTTP server would be more suitable for this, where Red Hat could 
> >even set the caducity of messages. You still need a helper application 
> >to read the messages like Evolution, Thunderbird or whatever, and still 
> >avoid having *your* inbox flooded.
> >    
> >
>
> With any half-decent mail client/environment, the fedora lists don't need to
> go to your inbox.
>
> But I think the *best* solution is an NNTP backend with an available web
> front end, because I recognize that many people don't know any better. *big
> grin*
>
>
>
>   
>  
Don't get me wrong I see this list with Thunderbird set to re-direct all 
fedora* mail to a Fedora directory under my local folders directory, but 
I'm also an avid web-forums reader of variuos communities, and have 
never had any trouble with say V-Bulletin (yeah, I know their fame) 
message boards, even on some servers with as high traffic as our list 
here. I guess it's up to the site admins to set a good set of options 
for archiving and a good search tool (with an *SQL backend most 
probably) to make it easy for the users to find what they're looking 
for. In any case, since I use both interfaces to many communities I 
periodically check, I'm comfortable with any of that... Still I think 
that the NNTP server with both a web-PHP and usual client interface is 
the best bet and would provide the best control for Red Hat to 
administer too.

Solution Coming Re: Fedora Community: Under threat?

On Sat, Feb 05, 2005 at 10:03:20AM -0600, Mike Klinke wrote:
>  On Saturday 05 February 2005 06:00, Warren Togami wrote:
>   >
>  > Totally in agreement, please read my post on this subject here.
>  >
>  > http://www.livejournal.com/users/wtogami/2005/02/04/
>  >
>  > Key to the problem is that mailing lists are far from the best
>  > medium for end-user support.  We need to steer end-users to an
>  > entirely different medium in order to scale effectively. 
>  > Official project change in that direction is happening soon. 
>  > Read the link above for details.
>  >
>  
>  To echo jdow's sentiment, "eeeewwwwwwww!"  If web forums are the 
>  future, I know from past experiences, I'm unlikely to visit very 
>  often since they're such a royal pain in the keester to use.  Will 
>  the messages at least be archived in a sensible manner so that they 
>  can be downloaded and read in a normal mail reader offline?
>  
>  Regards, Mike Klinke 
I don't know where is opposition to the list is coming
from but I see
no real problem with the list as it exists. I am currently not using
Usenet and am not that exited to start. The volume on the list as I
have said before comes from  having questions on all three Fedora versions
packaged into one list.
In many cases one can';t tell which FCx version is being used by the
questioner. For example, recently a brief interchange occurred on
whether OO is written in Java. Well FC1 and FC3 have different OO
setups so the question is hard to deal with is the Fedora distribution
is not identified.
=======================================================================
Power corrupts.  Absolute power is kind of neat.
		-- John Lehman, Secretary of the Navy, 1981-1987
-------------------------------------------
Aaron Konstam
Computer Science
Trinity University
One Trinity Place.
San Antonio, TX 78212-7200

telephone: [phone]
email:[e-mail]

Solution Coming Re: Fedora Community: Under threat?

[Les Mikesell]

On Sun, 2005-02-06 at 12:32, Gain Paolo Mureddu wrote:

>  I still don't get why are Web forums so dreaded, but that's
> just me... I 
>  haven't seen a *single* reason why not to make it so...  
They are really unhandy if you are interested in more than a couple
of things.  You certainly can't expect the people with answers to
your questions to hop around through dozens of them just so you
don't have to sort your inbox...

>  Unless, of 
>  course you still want to recieve 500+ e-mail messages if you are away of 
>  your computer for a day or two and could not cancel mail delivery 
>  temporarily (if you don't get the digest, of course). 
That's not a problem.  Procmail or most mailers will sort them
in a jiffy and you can catch up at your own speed.

>   To each their own, 
>  I just don't get why people don't like the web forums idea... 
Who's going to do that extra work looking for questions to answer?  If
a question drops in your mailbox and you happen to know the answer it's
a couple of seconds to solve someone's problem.  Who's going to bounce
though a bunch of web sites for that?

-- 
  Les Mikesell
   les(a)futuresource.com

Solution Coming Re: Fedora Community: Under threat?

[jim lawrence]

thought i would add my 2 cents in o this discussion...
my personal preference is to use gmail, easy to sort, easy to search
my account, and if i need to i can delete what i want.  as for a web
based forum the codeproject.com seems to have a very easy to use
interface. thats just my thoughts tho so take 'em with a grain of salt
:)

-- 

Jim Lawrence
Registered Linux User: #376813
********************************************************
When I'm feeling down, I like to whistle. 
It makes the neighbor's dog run to the end of his chain and gag himself.
************************************

Solution Coming Re: Fedora Community: Under threat?

[Alexandre Oliva]

On Feb  6, 2005, Gain Paolo Mureddu <gmureddu(a)prodigy.net.mx&gt; wrote:

>  [I] have never had any trouble with say V-Bulletin (yeah, I know
>  their fame) message boards, even on some servers with as high
>  traffic as our list here. I guess it's up to the site admins to set
>  a good set of options for archiving and a good search tool (with an
>  *SQL backend most probably) to make it easy for the users to find
>  what they're looking for. 
If the main issue is to enable users to find answers to questions that
have been answered before, a good search engine in the mailing list
archives would be fine.

But people willing to help can't easily keep track of new questions
yet to be answered, how are we ever going to create the good,
searchable archive of answered questions?

Web forums are just too time-consuming if you want to have the choice
of keeping up with everything that is discussed in a forum.
Downloading the entire forum in background and then skimming through
the threads and reading whatever looks interesting without having to
wait a few seconds to download the contents of whatever
topic/thread/message you choose to read, is far more efficient than
clicking on a topic/thread/message, waiting a few seconds until it's
displayed and then reading its contents in just as many seconds.


Warren's posting focuses on part of the problem, namely, that of
creating a good environment for people to find help with problems they
run into.  I believe a good searchable web front-end to any forum (be
it e-mail, news or your typical web forum) could accomplish just that.

The other important part of the problem is to help people willing to
help answer questions.  I doubt any web forum interface would enable
people willing to help to do so efficiently and effectively, and
without those answers, the web forum would be just a board on which
people would post questions and not get answers.  In order to be
efficient for the helpers, a web forum would have to have a gateway to
e-mail and/or news, so as to enable helpers to remove the latency of
web interactions, and let them (err, us? :-) organize the information
that is most suitable to them.  And if there's a gateway to e-mail
and/or news, e-mail and/or news might as well be a first-class entry
point to the forum, just as much as the corresponding web forum.

Web forums just force you into a specific form to display and access
information.  They're intrinsically against the principles behind Free
Software, that are meant to enable you to modify the software in
whatever way suits you best.  Web forums that offer the information in
forms meant for other programs to handle, in the form of web services,
XML-RPC, whatever, will let you do that, but they require people to
reinvent wheels not only on the server side, but also on client sides,
because good, threaded mail/news reading programs are unlikely to
support such custom web forum protocols.  I.e., you lose no matter how
you look at web forums.

-- 
Alexandre Oliva             http://www.ic.unicamp.br/~oliva/
Red Hat Compiler Engineer   aoliva(a){redhat.com, gcc.gnu.org}
Free Software Evangelist  oliva(a){lsd.ic.unicamp.br, gnu.org}

Solution Coming Re: Fedora Community: Under threat?

[micheal]

On Mon, 2005-02-07 at 02:19 -0200, Alexandre Oliva wrote:
>  how are we ever going to create the good,
>  searchable archive of answered questions?
>   
Just an idea, How about a desktop applet that does web searches on the
archive and other sources? Maybe something added to the panel that would
send out a request and parse/ return the results.  Other sites could be
added as well.

This of course won't help for most questions, but it may stem the tide
a little bit.

Solution Coming Re: Fedora Community: Under threat?

[Arthur Pemberton]

micheal wrote:

> On Mon, 2005-02-07 at 02:19 -0200, Alexandre Oliva wrote:
>   
>
> >how are we ever going to create the good,
> >searchable archive of answered questions?
> >
> >    
> >
>
> Just an idea, How about a desktop applet that does web searches on the
> archive and other sources? Maybe something added to the panel that would
> send out a request and parse/ return the results.  Other sites could be
> added as well.
>
> This of course won't help for most questions, but it may stem the tide
> a little bit. 
>
>   
>  
I think that's a great idea.

Solution Coming Re: Fedora Community: Under threat?

[Jared Buck]

On Sun, 2005-02-06 at 22:38 -0600, micheal wrote:
>  On Mon, 2005-02-07 at 02:19 -0200, Alexandre Oliva wrote:
>  > how are we ever going to create the good,
>  > searchable archive of answered questions?
>  > 
>  
>  Just an idea, How about a desktop applet that does web searches on the
>  archive and other sources? Maybe something added to the panel that would
>  send out a request and parse/ return the results.  Other sites could be
>  added as well.
>  
>  This of course won't help for most questions, but it may stem the tide
>  a little bit. 
>   
That sounds like a workable idea - an applet wouldn't take up much space
nor would it require much training or help to use.  An applet of this
kind obviously would need to be able to connect to various sites that
offer Red Hat Linux/Fedora Core help or solutions, and the applet would
need to incoporate each site into its search (possibly in a preferences
panel, there could be a list of sites that the applet searches for?) and
like you say, parse the results and return the ones that are most valid
and pertaining to the user's question.

I'd be all for something like this.

Jared

Solution Coming Re: Fedora Community: Under threat?

[Max Kanat-Alexander]

On Sat, 2005-02-05 at 19:23 +0000, James Wilkinson wrote:
>  Because I can think of a very easy way to improve this list: use the
>  community! Use volunteers! A busy list *is* a community, and it's
>  probably the biggest one Fedora has. 
	FWIW, I plan to add a little "community" section to the Basics FAQ that
explains how to be a polite member of the community.

	-Max

Solution Coming Re: Fedora Community: Under threat?

[jdow]

From: "Gain Paolo Mureddu" <gmureddu(a)prodigy.net.mx&gt;
>  Gustavo Seabra wrote:
>  
>  > Robert wrote:
>  >
>  >> jdow wrote:
>  >>
>  >>> From: "Warren Togami" <wtogami(a)redhat.com&gt;
>  >>>
>  >>>> http://www.livejournal.com/users/wtogami/2005/02/04/
>  >>>>
>  >>>> Key to the problem is that mailing lists are far from the best 
>  >>>> medium for end-user support.  We need to steer end-users to an 
>  >>>> entirely different medium in order to scale effectively.  Official 
>  >>>> project change in that direction is happening soon.  Read the link 
>  >>>> above for details.
>  >>>
>  >>>
>  >>>
>  >>>
>  >>> Eeeewwwww, web forums. Bye guys.
>  >>> {^_^}
>  >>>
>  >>
>  >> Yes.  And then there was this shopkeeper who was upset that his shop 
>  >> was so disorderly until he ran off all his customers. EXCELLENT 
>  >> SOLUTION!
>  >>
>  > The point here is not /his/ solution, but I think he's just expressing 
>  > what he'd do (and I believe most of us dumb-mortal-users would do as 
>  > well) if the RedHat guys go ahead with this idea. That is definitely a 
>  > very bad idea, one that would probably jeopardize the whole 
>  > "fedora-users-community" idea. There's been plenty of solutions 
>  > proposed here on this thread there are *much* better than the dreaded 
>  > web forums.
>  >
>  > I second JDow's opinion. / Eeeewwwww, web forums. Bye guys. /. If they 
>  > *want* ideas, they'll certainly find within this (so far) community.
>  >
>  I still don't get why are Web forums so dreaded, but that's just me... I 
>  haven't seen a *single* reason why not to make it so... Unless, of 
>  course you still want to recieve 500+ e-mail messages if you are away of 
>  your computer for a day or two and could not cancel mail delivery 
>  temporarily (if you don't get the digest, of course). To each their own, 
>  I just don't get why people don't like the web forums idea... Maybe a 
>  private NTTP server would be more suitable for this, where Red Hat could 
>  even set the caducity of messages. You still need a helper application 
>  to read the messages like Evolution, Thunderbird or whatever, and still 
>  avoid having *your* inbox flooded. 
20 years of experience with messaging systems ranging from the late
lamented BYTE Information Exchange to nntp to mailing lists and of
course web boards lead me to the conclusion that of all the alternatives
web messaging systems are pretty uniformly dreadful, even the one I
made for myself for reading BIX offline.

Any such system should support "guaranteed threading unless the poster
screws up seriously." Mailing lists and nntp fall down here. Web boards
are actually pretty good in that regard. The old BIX CoSy system was
excellent in this regard.

Any such system should include noise reduction features. I consider nntp
as a noise enhancement tool. Web boards are generally noise enhancement
tools of modest to extreme degrees. Mailing lists enhance noise as well
as provide a built in dampening mechanism. My email tools lead to a set
of VERY good noise reduction tools even with poor threading. CoSy as we
left it when BIX died provided twit filters, thread killing, and so forth.
It also provided "forever memory" that made a troll's bad behavior a
rather permanent part of the record. That does lad to some additional
civility. Now, a custom nntp can also provide this "forever memory"
which might make it a good thing.

Any such system should provide some filtering for potential malware
inclusions. HTML is entirely too flexible in this regard. Email at least
is plain text reader accessible. And a private nntp could also be plain
text accessible. Custom pretty much makes this list plain text. With
nntp tools out there we'd have to rely on custom as well. Heh, CoSy WAS
pure plain text, no HTML need apply. (Well, it DID have some provisions
for NAPLPS that nobody ever used.)

On the whole I have nice filtering setup for email already. I don't even
have a newsreader that I use at present and don't want to set one up.
(I REALLY find nntp repellant, almost as repellant as HTML. I guess I
must figure cute is for puppies and little children, not for serious
endeavors. And this should be a serious discussion group.)

But then, FC3 sorta drove me away to the point I'm giving Mandrake a
serious test. So don't lay too much stock on what I say at this point.
Maybe make my vote a tenth of a vote. I'm mostly here for old times
sake.

{^_^}

Incomplete Distro???

[Alan McDonald]

I have to admit that even though I have worked with Linux a little over the
years, I'm just a newbie with many things...
But I have to ask, why so many dependent rpms are missing from the fedora
distro Cds. I wanted to use gcc, so I start trying to install and like other
things requiring dependent libs, gcc requires, in this instance,
kernel-headers which is not on the CDs.
Can someone tell me why?
Alan

Incomplete Distro???

[Gene Heskett]

On Monday 07 February 2005 01:11, Alan McDonald wrote:
> I have to admit that even though I have worked with Linux a little
>  over the years, I'm just a newbie with many things...
> But I have to ask, why so many dependent rpms are missing from the
>  fedora distro Cds. I wanted to use gcc, so I start trying to
>  install and like other things requiring dependent libs, gcc
>  requires, in this instance, kernel-headers which is not on the CDs.
> Can someone tell me why?
> Alan 
The distro is not 'incomplete' but your install was I suspect.  You 
did install all the 'development' stuffs?  If not, then you should do 
so before squawking about missing stuff that you may have left out on 
purpose, or through not understanding the ramifications of leaving it 
out.  Either way its not the distros fault.

-- 
Cheers, Gene
"There are four boxes to be used in defense of liberty:
 soap, ballot, jury, and ammo. Please use in that order."
-Ed Howdershelt (Author)
99.32% setiathome rank, not too shabby for a WV hillbilly
Yahoo.com attorneys please note, additions to this message
by Gene Heskett are:
Copyright 2005 by Maurice Eugene Heskett, all rights reserved.

Incomplete Distro???

[Matthew Miller]

On Mon, Feb 07, 2005 at 05:11:55PM +1100, Alan McDonald wrote:
>  But I have to ask, why so many dependent rpms are missing from the
> fedora
>  distro Cds. I wanted to use gcc, so I start trying to install and like other
>  things requiring dependent libs, gcc requires, in this instance,
>  kernel-headers which is not on the CDs. 

  $ rpm -q --whatprovides kernel-headers
  glibc-kernheaders-2.4-9.1.87

It might have been more helpful to title your post "can't find
kernel-headers package" -- your current one seems a bit over-worried. :)

-- 
Matthew Miller            mattdm(a)mattdm.org        <http://www.mattdm.org/>
-->  Fedora Users & Developers Conference, hosted by Boston University  <--
February 18th, 2005                       <http://fedoraproject.org/fudcon/>

Incomplete Distro???

[Alan McDonald]

>  On Mon, Feb 07, 2005 at 05:11:55PM +1100, Alan McDonald wrote:
>  > But I have to ask, why so many dependent rpms are missing from
>  the fedora
>  > distro Cds. I wanted to use gcc, so I start trying to install
>  and like other
>  > things requiring dependent libs, gcc requires, in this instance,
>  > kernel-headers which is not on the CDs.
>
>
>    $ rpm -q --whatprovides kernel-headers
>    glibc-kernheaders-2.4-9.1.87
>
>  It might have been more helpful to title your post "can't find
>  kernel-headers package" -- your current one seems a bit over-worried. :)
>
>  --
>  Matthew Miller            mattdm(a)mattdm.org 
well now I might be even more worried because the anser to whatprovides on
my Fedora Core 2 is not glibc-kernheaders but kernel-headers-2.4-9.34 and
that file is not present on my distro..
What else don't I undertand
thanks
Alan

Incomplete Distro???

[Jeff Vian]

On Mon, 2005-02-07 at 17:48 +1100, Alan McDonald wrote:
>  > On Mon, Feb 07, 2005 at 05:11:55PM +1100, Alan McDonald wrote:
>  > > But I have to ask, why so many dependent rpms are missing from
>  > the fedora
>  > > distro Cds. I wanted to use gcc, so I start trying to install
>  > and like other
>  > > things requiring dependent libs, gcc requires, in this instance,
>  > > kernel-headers which is not on the CDs.
>  > 
Did this say the package kernel-headers?  If not then it is just telling
you the headers are not available.

>  >
>  >   $ rpm -q --whatprovides kernel-headers
>  >   glibc-kernheaders-2.4-9.1.87
>  >
>  > It might have been more helpful to title your post "can't find
>  > kernel-headers package" -- your current one seems a bit over-worried. :)
>  >
>  > --
>  > Matthew Miller            mattdm(a)mattdm.org
>  
>  well now I might be even more worried because the anser to whatprovides on
>  my Fedora Core 2 is not glibc-kernheaders but kernel-headers-2.4-9.34 and
>  that file is not present on my distro..
>  What else don't I undertand
>  thanks
>  Alan
>   
I think Matt's answer was from FC3, not FC2.

The distro CDs (disk 1 or 2) should have the required package, and in
FC2 IIRC the headers are in the kernel-source RPM which is on disk 2.  

With FC3 (and I think in a later update in FC2), they have removed the
kernel-souce RPM and moved the headers to another package since a lot of
people did not use the source but often had to install it just for the
headers when compiling other things that required the kernel headers but
nothing else from the kernel source tree.

The kernel-source package is also available from the fedora site at
http://download.fedora.redhat.com/pub/fedora/linux/core/2/

BTW, I reread your message about the required kernel-headers-2.4-9.34
and then checked what is in FC2 and FC1.  
FC1 starts with kernel 2.4.22
FC2 starts with kernel 2.6.5
However, kernel-utils is 2.4-9 in both.
The required package would imply you need headers for the 2.4 kernel,
but FC2 has never had a 2.4 kernel.  It started with 2.6.5 kernel.

I wonder what version of gcc you are installing and where you got it?
It doesn't seem likely that it is a fedora package if it requires
another package that is not provided by fedora.

With FC2 you should be able to do a "yum install gcc " and it should
identify any dependencies and install them for you. (Of course this
presumes that you have an internet connection for this machine.)

Try that before you say the distribution is broken.  I have never had a
problem using/installing any software package in the distribution using
yum.  OTOH, I have at times gotten into "dependency hell" when trying to
do the same thing manually with rpm.

HTH
Jeff
>

Incomplete Distro???

[Matthew Miller]

On Mon, Feb 07, 2005 at 02:03:31AM -0600, Jeff Vian wrote:
>  I think Matt's answer was from FC3, not FC2. 
I checked on both, actually.

FC2 has glibc-kernheaders-2.4-8.44, and FC3 glibc-kernheaders-2.4-9.1.87. 
I don't think there's been updates for either.

I've been wrong before, though. :)

>  The distro CDs (disk 1 or 2) should have the required package, and
> in
>  FC2 IIRC the headers are in the kernel-source RPM which is on disk 2. 
There's also the separate kernel-headers (well, glibc-kernheaders) package.
As the later/current name indicates, these are supposed to match the kernel
your glibc was built against, not necessarily the currently running kernel. 

>  BTW, I reread your message about the required
> kernel-headers-2.4-9.34
>  and then checked what is in FC2 and FC1.  
>  FC1 starts with kernel 2.4.22
>  FC2 starts with kernel 2.6.5
>  However, kernel-utils is 2.4-9 in both. 
Yeah, kernel-utils, but not kernel-headers. :)

>  The required package would imply you need headers for the 2.4
> kernel,
>  but FC2 has never had a 2.4 kernel.  It started with 2.6.5 kernel. 
Apparently, the glibc package built on FC1 or RHEL for both of them. Kinda
weird, now that you mention it. :) Hmm, and the devel tree (rawhide) package
is 2.4-9.1.89 .... quite odd!


>  I wonder what version of gcc you are installing and where you got
> it?
>  It doesn't seem likely that it is a fedora package if it requires
>  another package that is not provided by fedora. 
Stuff like this happens sometimes -- for example, some packages still
require "XFree86-devel" even though that's been replaced with xorg-devel.
RPM can handle this fine because the replacement packages can explicitly
tell the system that the provide another package name in addition to their
own. In this case, the glibc-headers package requires kernel-headers, and
glibc-headers is required by glibc-devel, and glibc-devel is required by
gcc.


You know the famous saying: "Oh, what a tangled web we weave, when first we
practice to use RPM directly instead of using Yum." Or at least, I think
that's how it goes. :)

-- 
Matthew Miller            mattdm(a)mattdm.org        <http://www.mattdm.org/>
-->  Fedora Users & Developers Conference, hosted by Boston University  <--
February 18th, 2005                       <http://fedoraproject.org/fudcon/>

Solution Coming Re: Fedora Community: Under threat?

On Mon, Feb 07, 2005 at 02:19:22AM -0200, Alexandre Oliva wrote:
>  On Feb  6, 2005, Gain Paolo Mureddu <gmureddu(a)prodigy.net.mx&gt;
> wrote:
>  
>  > [I] have never had any trouble with say V-Bulletin (yeah, I know
>  > their fame) message boards, even on some servers with as high
>  > traffic as our list here. I guess it's up to the site admins to set
>  > a good set of options for archiving and a good search tool (with an
>  > *SQL backend most probably) to make it easy for the users to find
>  > what they're looking for.
>  
>  If the main issue is to enable users to find answers to questions that
>  have been answered before, a good search engine in the mailing list
>  archives would be fine.
>  
>  But people willing to help can't easily keep track of new questions
>  yet to be answered, how are we ever going to create the good,
>  searchable archive of answered questions?
>  
>  Web forums are just too time-consuming if you want to have the choice
>  of keeping up with everything that is discussed in a forum.
>  Downloading the entire forum in background and then skimming through
>  the threads and reading whatever looks interesting without having to
>  wait a few seconds to download the contents of whatever
>  topic/thread/message you choose to read, is far more efficient than
>  clicking on a topic/thread/message, waiting a few seconds until it's
>  displayed and then reading its contents in just as many seconds.
>  
>  
>  Warren's posting focuses on part of the problem, namely, that of
>  creating a good environment for people to find help with problems they
>  run into.  I believe a good searchable web front-end to any forum (be
>  it e-mail, news or your typical web forum) could accomplish just that.
>  
>  The other important part of the problem is to help people willing to
>  help answer questions.  I doubt any web forum interface would enable
>  people willing to help to do so efficiently and effectively, and
>  without those answers, the web forum would be just a board on which
>  people would post questions and not get answers.  In order to be
>  efficient for the helpers, a web forum would have to have a gateway to
>  e-mail and/or news, so as to enable helpers to remove the latency of
>  web interactions, and let them (err, us? :-) organize the information
>  that is most suitable to them.  And if there's a gateway to e-mail
>  and/or news, e-mail and/or news might as well be a first-class entry
>  point to the forum, just as much as the corresponding web forum.
>  
>  Web forums just force you into a specific form to display and access
>  information.  They're intrinsically against the principles behind Free
>  Software, that are meant to enable you to modify the software in
>  whatever way suits you best.  Web forums that offer the information in
>  forms meant for other programs to handle, in the form of web services,
>  XML-RPC, whatever, will let you do that, but they require people to
>  reinvent wheels not only on the server side, but also on client sides,
>  because good, threaded mail/news reading programs are unlikely to
>  support such custom web forum protocols.  I.e., you lose no matter how
>  you look at web forums.
>  
>  --  
I just want to second what has been said above. This proposed switch is
just a bad idea.
-- 

=======================================================================
I consider a new device or technology to have been culturally accepted when
it has been used to commit a murder.
		-- M. Gallaher
-------------------------------------------
Aaron Konstam
Computer Science
Trinity University
One Trinity Place.
San Antonio, TX 78212-7200

telephone: [phone]
email:[e-mail]

Solution Coming Re: Fedora Community: Under threat?

[Rodolfo J. Paiz]

On Sun, 2005-02-06 at 15:04 -0600, akonstam(a)trinity.edu wrote:
>  I don't know where is opposition to the list is coming from but I
> see
>  no real problem with the list as it exists. 
Good point, and one I would like to echo. This list *can* continue as it
is. It is not actively causing harm to the community.

Then again, it could be improved:

 - Better searching of archives
 - More flexible ways to access its content
 - Greater ease for newbies in learning its use
 - Greater ease for experts in wading through 8,000 messages/month
   trying to find questions to answer
 - Greater control over malware

Probably a few more I've missed off the top of my head. But moving from
the mailing list to web fora is not going to improve anything, and will
certainly cause some harm.

	1. I'm nearly the most-prolific poster on Piper Chat
(www.piperchat.com) and it watches to see whether there's a reply to a
conversation in which I participate. That's nice for newbies. However,
actively trying to find new things that might be of interest to me
entails a daily visit to the site, trawling the various areas to see if
something was posted. Takes a good five minutes of my time, and that's
on a board that gets 5-10 messages a day! Bleagh.

If fedora-list were only fedora-webfora, I would find it so difficult
and so time-consuming to help others that my current activity level
would be severely curtailed. I can go through a day's posts in fedora-
list within five to ten minutes... I cannot do that with web fora.

Without people who want to help others, or with any marked reduction in
those people, the Fedora community suffers grievous harm.

	2. Adding independent web fora to the mailing list (remember, Warren
said fedora-list would not close) is a recipe for disaster. Some people
would move to the web fora, some would stay on the mailing list, very
few (almost none?) would monitor both, and you then have a fragmented
community. And I'll bet you that most of the experts stay on the mailing
list, leaving the web fora an empty shell that's not very useful to
newbies since a neat interface is no substitute for content.

Let's find something that helps everyone, I say. So I repeat: let us
move to NNTP as a *base* protocol, with news-to-mail and news-to-web
gateways so that each person may choose whatever tool/interface they
prefer. All those protocols, gateways, and interfaces already exist! No
need to reinvent the wheel here.

If someone objects to NNTP, I am willing to listen. But please, let
proposed solutions be those that ADD flexibility and robustness instead
of removing it.

Cheers,

-- 
Rodolfo J. Paiz <rpaiz(a)simpaticus.com&gt;

Solution Coming Re: Fedora Community: Under threat?

[Rodolfo J. Paiz]

On Sun, 2005-02-06 at 15:47 -0600, Les Mikesell wrote:
>  Who's going to do that extra work looking for questions to
> answer?  If
>  a question drops in your mailbox and you happen to know the answer it's
>  a couple of seconds to solve someone's problem.  Who's going to bounce
>  though a bunch of web sites for that?
>   
I would *like* to! I've had fun trying to help others and hanging out on
this community over the last decade. However, I believe that
participating in the same way on a web forum will be impossible for me.

Cheers,

-- 
Rodolfo J. Paiz <rpaiz(a)simpaticus.com&gt;

Solution Coming Re: Fedora Community: Under threat?

[Les Mikesell]

On Mon, 2005-02-07 at 09:16, Rodolfo J. Paiz wrote:

>  > Who's going to do that extra work looking for questions to
> answer?  If
>  > a question drops in your mailbox and you happen to know the answer it's
>  > a couple of seconds to solve someone's problem.  Who's going to bounce
>  > though a bunch of web sites for that?
>  > 
>  
>  I would *like* to! I've had fun trying to help others and hanging out on
>  this community over the last decade. However, I believe that
>  participating in the same way on a web forum will be impossible for me. 
The one thing I could see as an improvement over the current mailing
list and bugzilla for fedora users would be to add a wiki that would
be maintained mostly by a team of volunteers who would collate the
frequently-asked questions on the list into stock answers on the
wiki.  Then much of the clutter on the mailling list could be avoided
by searching the wiki first, and if new users don't  recognize the
symptoms well enough to find the answer themselves, the mailing list
response would only have to be a pointer to the wiki entry.  Issues
that are real system bugs should get filed into bugzilla and things
that are common operator mistakes/misconceptions or that have simple
workaround solutions could become wiki entries that are easily updated
as the situations change. 

-- 
  Les Mikesell
    les(a)futuresource.com

Solution Coming Re: Fedora Community: Under threat?

[Paul Howarth]

Les Mikesell wrote:
>  The one thing I could see as an improvement over the current mailing
>  list and bugzilla for fedora users would be to add a wiki that would
>  be maintained mostly by a team of volunteers who would collate the
>  frequently-asked questions on the list into stock answers on the
>  wiki.  Then much of the clutter on the mailling list could be avoided
>  by searching the wiki first, and if new users don't  recognize the
>  symptoms well enough to find the answer themselves, the mailing list
>  response would only have to be a pointer to the wiki entry. 
These new users would be the same people that don't read fedorafaq.org, 
wouldn't they? That answers many of the questions ansked here, 
particularly regarding NTFS, but it doesn't stop people asking.

>  Issues
>  that are real system bugs should get filed into bugzilla and things
>  that are common operator mistakes/misconceptions or that have simple
>  workaround solutions could become wiki entries that are easily updated
>  as the situations change.  
I think it's a good idea actually, though it would be nice if the 
mailing list sign-up site mentioned the FAQ/Wiki as a place to look 
before posting.

Paul.

Solution Coming Re: Fedora Community: Under threat?

[Scot L. Harris]

On Mon, 2005-02-07 at 11:46, Les Mikesell wrote:
>  On Mon, 2005-02-07 at 09:16, Rodolfo J. Paiz wrote:
>  
>  > > Who's going to do that extra work looking for questions to answer?  If
>  > > a question drops in your mailbox and you happen to know the answer it's
>  > > a couple of seconds to solve someone's problem.  Who's going to bounce
>  > > though a bunch of web sites for that?
>  > > 
>  > 
>  > I would *like* to! I've had fun trying to help others and hanging out on
>  > this community over the last decade. However, I believe that
>  > participating in the same way on a web forum will be impossible for me.
>  
>  The one thing I could see as an improvement over the current mailing
>  list and bugzilla for fedora users would be to add a wiki that would
>  be maintained mostly by a team of volunteers who would collate the
>  frequently-asked questions on the list into stock answers on the
>  wiki.  Then much of the clutter on the mailling list could be avoided
>  by searching the wiki first, and if new users don't  recognize the
>  symptoms well enough to find the answer themselves, the mailing list
>  response would only have to be a pointer to the wiki entry.  Issues
>  that are real system bugs should get filed into bugzilla and things
>  that are common operator mistakes/misconceptions or that have simple
>  workaround solutions could become wiki entries that are easily updated
>  as the situations change.  
I like that idea.  The wiki would be a way to mine the various solutions
proposed on the mailing list and collect them in a single place that can
be searched.

Then we just need to tie that into an AI script that views new questions
on the list and responds automatically with the answer in the wiki.

Detailed responses based on the wiki could be sent directly to the OP
with a pointer back to the wiki posted on the list.  This way people
that just read the question and wonder what the answer is can find it
and the OP gets detailed help directly.  Such an automated response
would make this very fast getting an answer instead of waiting for
someone to take interest and type a response.




-- 
Scot L. Harris
webid(a)cfl.rr.com

Herth's Law:
	He who turns the other cheek too far gets it in the neck.

Solution Coming Re: Fedora Community: Under threat?

[Paul Howarth]

Scot L. Harris wrote:
>  I like that idea.  The wiki would be a way to mine the various
> solutions
>  proposed on the mailing list and collect them in a single place that can
>  be searched.
>  
>  Then we just need to tie that into an AI script that views new questions
>  on the list and responds automatically with the answer in the wiki.
>  
>  Detailed responses based on the wiki could be sent directly to the OP
>  with a pointer back to the wiki posted on the list.  This way people
>  that just read the question and wonder what the answer is can find it
>  and the OP gets detailed help directly.  Such an automated response
>  would make this very fast getting an answer instead of waiting for
>  someone to take interest and type a response. 
Nice idea but it would need an "AI bypass" facility for posters that 
have tried the solutions mentioned on the Wiki but haven't resolved 
their problems.

Paul.

Solution Coming Re: Fedora Community: Under threat?

[William Hooper]

Scot L. Harris said:
[snip]

>  Then we just need to tie that into an AI script that views new
> questions
>  on the list and responds automatically with the answer in the wiki. 
The Fedora Answers Magic 8-ball... :-)

"Reply hazy, try again later."

Having a script send automatied responses probably isn't a good idea.  I'm
sure we've all had the tech support experience of the script grabbing onto
one keyword and giving completely nonsense replies.

Having a central place to send people to for detailed replies would be
good, but don't expect it to stop people from asking the same questions
over and over.

-- 
William Hooper

Solution Coming Re: Fedora Community: Under threat?

[Scot L. Harris]

On Mon, 2005-02-07 at 12:00, Paul Howarth wrote:
>  Scot L. Harris wrote:
>  > I like that idea.  The wiki would be a way to mine the various solutions
>  > proposed on the mailing list and collect them in a single place that can
>  > be searched.
>  > 
>  > Then we just need to tie that into an AI script that views new questions
>  > on the list and responds automatically with the answer in the wiki.
>  > 
>  > Detailed responses based on the wiki could be sent directly to the OP
>  > with a pointer back to the wiki posted on the list.  This way people
>  > that just read the question and wonder what the answer is can find it
>  > and the OP gets detailed help directly.  Such an automated response
>  > would make this very fast getting an answer instead of waiting for
>  > someone to take interest and type a response.
>  
>  Nice idea but it would need an "AI bypass" facility for posters that 
>  have tried the solutions mentioned on the Wiki but haven't resolved 
>  their problems.
>  
>  Paul. 
The AI would only respond to initial posts (new threads).  If someone
still has a problem they reply to the original thread stating that the
wiki response did not work or was not applicable to their problem.

I figure the AI would trigger on specific terms or phrases.

NTF would get all the info on how to add NTF support, caveats, where to
get it etc.

kernel source  would get the pointer to the release notes.

ssh would get pointer to release notes (ssh -X -Y) and standard security
lecture.

and so on.

There could be an additional bypass token put in the message or subject
to prevent the AI from triggering on content of the message.


-- 
Scot L. Harris
webid(a)cfl.rr.com

Who will take care of the world after you're gone?

Solution Coming Re: Fedora Community: Under threat?

[Gustavo Seabra]

Les Mikesell wrote:

> On Mon, 2005-02-07 at 09:16, Rodolfo J. Paiz wrote:
>
>   
>
> >>Who's going to do that extra work looking for questions to answer?  If
> >>a question drops in your mailbox and you happen to know the answer it's
> >>a couple of seconds to solve someone's problem.  Who's going to bounce
> >>though a bunch of web sites for that?
> >>
> >>      
> >>
> >I would *like* to! I've had fun trying to help others and hanging out on
> >this community over the last decade. However, I believe that
> >participating in the same way on a web forum will be impossible for me.
> >    
> >
>
> The one thing I could see as an improvement over the current mailing
> list and bugzilla for fedora users would be to add a wiki that would
> be maintained mostly by a team of volunteers who would collate the
> frequently-asked questions on the list into stock answers on the
> wiki.  Then much of the clutter on the mailling list could be avoided
> by searching the wiki first, and if new users don't  recognize the
> symptoms well enough to find the answer themselves, the mailing list
> response would only have to be a pointer to the wiki entry.  Issues
> that are real system bugs should get filed into bugzilla and things
> that are common operator mistakes/misconceptions or that have simple
> workaround solutions could become wiki entries that are easily updated
> as the situations change. 
>
>   
>  
That, plus the news <--> mail <--> web feature suggested by Rodolfo, 
plus the applet suggested by  Micheal would be a great solution. 
Actually, we're having a great number of good suggestions that could 
work well. I really hope they will be implemented some time in the near 
future. That brings up one other question:

*Are the people actually responsible for making these changes following 
this thread?*

-- 
----------------------------------
Gustavo Seabra - Graduate Student
Chemistry Department
Kansas State University
----------------------------------
If at first you don't succeed...
      ...skydiving is not for you.

Solution Coming Re: Fedora Community: Under threat?

[Les Mikesell]

On Mon, 2005-02-07 at 10:53, Paul Howarth wrote:
>  Les Mikesell wrote:
>  > The one thing I could see as an improvement over the current mailing
>  > list and bugzilla for fedora users would be to add a wiki that would
>  > be maintained mostly by a team of volunteers who would collate the
>  > frequently-asked questions on the list into stock answers on the
>  > wiki.  Then much of the clutter on the mailling list could be avoided
>  > by searching the wiki first, and if new users don't  recognize the
>  > symptoms well enough to find the answer themselves, the mailing list
>  > response would only have to be a pointer to the wiki entry.
>  
>  These new users would be the same people that don't read fedorafaq.org, 
>  wouldn't they? 
You mean that page that was last updated in December, has a total
of 15 problems and solutions, and no way for someone to add solutions
or downloadable attachments?  I can see why it isn't so popular...

>  That answers many of the questions ansked here, 
>  particularly regarding NTFS, but it doesn't stop people asking. 
But it makes the answers easy if all you have to supply is a
link to an up to date page.  I've seen wiki's work for several
other projects - it just takes a certain critical mass for it to
become the preferred place to look and submit updates. 

-- 
  Les Mikesell
   les(a)futuresource.com

Solution Coming Re: Fedora Community: Under threat?

[Paul Howarth]

Les Mikesell wrote:
>  On Mon, 2005-02-07 at 10:53, Paul Howarth wrote:
>  
> >Les Mikesell wrote:
> >
> >>The one thing I could see as an improvement over the current mailing
> >>list and bugzilla for fedora users would be to add a wiki that would
> >>be maintained mostly by a team of volunteers who would collate the
> >>frequently-asked questions on the list into stock answers on the
> >>wiki.  Then much of the clutter on the mailling list could be avoided
> >>by searching the wiki first, and if new users don't  recognize the
> >>symptoms well enough to find the answer themselves, the mailing list
> >>response would only have to be a pointer to the wiki entry.
> >
> >These new users would be the same people that don't read fedorafaq.org, 
> >wouldn't they?
>  
>  
>  You mean that page that was last updated in December, has a total
>  of 15 problems and solutions, and no way for someone to add solutions
>  or downloadable attachments?  I can see why it isn't so popular... 
Actually it was last updated yesterday but your other points are still 
valid.

Nevertheless, it does answer the often-asked questions about NTFS and 
bootable floppies, yet there's no end to the number of people still 
asking *those* questions.

>  But it makes the answers easy if all you have to supply is a
>  link to an up to date page.  I've seen wiki's work for several
>  other projects - it just takes a certain critical mass for it to
>  become the preferred place to look and submit updates.  
Has to be worth a try I think.

Paul.

Solution Coming Re: Fedora Community: Under threat?

[Max Kanat-Alexander]

On Mon, 2005-02-07 at 12:18 -0600, Les Mikesell wrote:
>  I can see why it isn't so popular... 
	Hahahaha... just to let you know, I have about 150,000 impressions a
month on all the translations of fedorafaq.org, averaging out to usually
80,000 unique visitors a month on the English version alone.

	I do try to keep the FAQ updated. If you have anything that you feel
like should be on there, and it isn't, please send me an email! I have a
whole section of the site on how to contribute:

	http://www.fedorafaq.org/contribute/

	-Max

Solution Coming Re: Fedora Community: Under threat?

[jim lawrence]

On Tue, 08 Feb 2005 07:30:21 -0800, Max Kanat-Alexander
<max_list(a)fedorafaq.org&gt; wrote:
>  On Mon, 2005-02-07 at 12:18 -0600, Les Mikesell wrote:
>  > I can see why it isn't so popular...
>  
>          Hahahaha... just to let you know, I have about 150,000 impressions a
>  month on all the translations of fedorafaq.org, averaging out to usually
>  80,000 unique visitors a month on the English version alone.
>  
>          I do try to keep the FAQ updated. If you have anything that you feel
>  like should be on there, and it isn't, please send me an email! I have a
>  whole section of the site on how to contribute:
>  
>          http://www.fedorafaq.org/contribute/
>  
>          -Max
>  
>  
>  --
>  fedora-list mailing list
>  fedora-list(a)redhat.com
>  To unsubscribe: http://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/fedora-list
>   
Max, I have a few articles that are posted at fedoranews.org.  If you
feel that they could be of some use on your faq site, i'll send you
the pages.  For a peek at them...
http://www.fedoranews.org/contributors/jim_lawrence/network_manager/
http://www.fedoranews.org/contributors/jim_lawrence/securewireless/
http://www.fedoranews.org/contributors/jim_lawrence/wireless/
-- 

Jim Lawrence
Registered Linux User: #376813
********************************************************
When I'm feeling down, I like to whistle. 
It makes the neighbor's dog run to the end of his chain and gag himself.
************************************

Solution Coming Re: Fedora Community: Under threat?

[Max Kanat-Alexander]

On Tue, 2005-02-08 at 10:34 -0500, jim lawrence wrote:
>  Max, I have a few articles that are posted at fedoranews.org.  If
> you
>  feel that they could be of some use on your faq site, i'll send you
>  the pages.  For a peek at them...
>  http://www.fedoranews.org/contributors/jim_lawrence/network_manager/
>  http://www.fedoranews.org/contributors/jim_lawrence/securewireless/
>  http://www.fedoranews.org/contributors/jim_lawrence/wireless/ 
	Hey Jim. I know that the Centrino stuff (the ipw2200 stuff) was a HUGE
FAQ at LinuxWorld, last year. I think a lot of people have trouble with
that. Send me an email directly, and we'll talk about it. (I have a hard
time keeping up with the fedora-list. :-))

	What I *wish* I had was a central link where I could just point people
for drivers, for the http://www.fedorafaq.org/#drivers question.

	-Max

Solution Coming Re: Fedora Community: Under threat?

[Les Mikesell]

On Tue, 2005-02-08 at 09:30, Max Kanat-Alexander wrote:
>  On Mon, 2005-02-07 at 12:18 -0600, Les Mikesell wrote:
>  > I can see why it isn't so popular...
>  
>  	Hahahaha... just to let you know, I have about 150,000 impressions a
>  month on all the translations of fedorafaq.org, averaging out to usually
>  80,000 unique visitors a month on the English version alone.
>  
>  	I do try to keep the FAQ updated. If you have anything that you feel
>  like should be on there, and it isn't, please send me an email! I have a
>  whole section of the site on how to contribute:
>  
>  	http://www.fedorafaq.org/contribute/ 
You shouldn't have to ask permission to contribute, and with a wiki you
don't any more than on a mailing list.  Is there any chance you could
add a wiki section?  I happen to like twiki, but you probably don't need
any of the special features.

A FAQ for this mailing list would obviously need to answer the "where's
the web/nntp interface" question....

-- 
  Les Mikesell
   les(a)futuresource.com

Solution Coming Re: Fedora Community: Under threat?

[Marc D. Field]

Hi all,

For those who expressed an interest in reading this list via nntp, you can already do it!

Server: news.gmane.org
Group: gmane.linux.redhat.fedora.general

Marc

Solution Coming Re: Fedora Community: Under threat?

[Gustavo Seabra]

Marc D. Field wrote:

> Hi all,
>
> For those who expressed an interest in reading this list via nntp, you can already do it!
>
> Server: news.gmane.org
> Group: gmane.linux.redhat.fedora.general
>
> Marc
>
>   
>  
Actually, it seems that there's already access available to this list by 
pretty much any method one can choose! Now, it's just a matter of taste :-)

-- 
----------------------------------
Gustavo Seabra - Graduate Student
Chemistry Department
Kansas State University
----------------------------------
If at first you don't succeed...
      ...skydiving is not for you.

Solution Coming Re: Fedora Community: Under threat?

[David Liguori]

Rodolfo J. Paiz wrote:
>  On Sun, 2005-02-06 at 15:04 -0600, akonstam(a)trinity.edu wrote:
>  
> >I don't know where is opposition to the list is coming from but I see
> >no real problem with the list as it exists.
>  
>  
>  Good point, and one I would like to echo. This list *can* continue as it
>  is. It is not actively causing harm to the community.
>  
>  Then again, it could be improved:
>  
>   - Better searching of archives
>   - More flexible ways to access its content
>   - Greater ease for newbies in learning its use
>   - Greater ease for experts in wading through 8,000 messages/month
>     trying to find questions to answer
>   - Greater control over malware
>  
>  Probably a few more I've missed off the top of my head. But moving from
>  the mailing list to web fora is not going to improve anything, and will
>  certainly cause some harm.
>  
>  	1. I'm nearly the most-prolific poster on Piper Chat
>  (www.piperchat.com) and it watches to see whether there's a reply to a
>  conversation in which I participate. That's nice for newbies. However,
>  actively trying to find new things that might be of interest to me
>  entails a daily visit to the site, trawling the various areas to see if
>  something was posted. Takes a good five minutes of my time, and that's
>  on a board that gets 5-10 messages a day! Bleagh.
>  
>  If fedora-list were only fedora-webfora, I would find it so difficult
>  and so time-consuming to help others that my current activity level
>  would be severely curtailed. I can go through a day's posts in fedora-
>  list within five to ten minutes... I cannot do that with web fora.
>  
>  Without people who want to help others, or with any marked reduction in
>  those people, the Fedora community suffers grievous harm.
>  
>  	2. Adding independent web fora to the mailing list (remember, Warren
>  said fedora-list would not close) is a recipe for disaster. Some people
>  would move to the web fora, some would stay on the mailing list, very
>  few (almost none?) would monitor both, and you then have a fragmented
>  community. And I'll bet you that most of the experts stay on the mailing
>  list, leaving the web fora an empty shell that's not very useful to
>  newbies since a neat interface is no substitute for content.
>  
>  Let's find something that helps everyone, I say. So I repeat: let us
>  move to NNTP as a *base* protocol, with news-to-mail and news-to-web
>  gateways so that each person may choose whatever tool/interface they
>  prefer. All those protocols, gateways, and interfaces already exist! No
>  need to reinvent the wheel here.
>  
>  If someone objects to NNTP, I am willing to listen. But please, let
>  proposed solutions be those that ADD flexibility and robustness instead
>  of removing it.
>  
>  Cheers,
>   
Wow, this thread is getting longer than the ones that prompted the original post!

Anyway, my preferences would be: NNTP (10 out of 10), keep the mailing list as is (9 out
of 10) and web forum (1 out of 10).

 --
David Liguori

Solution Coming Re: Fedora Community: Under threat?

[Jonathan Berry]

On Thu, 10 Feb 2005 01:18:42 -0600, Gustavo Seabra <seabra(a)ksu.edu&gt; wrote:
>  Marc D. Field wrote:
>  >Hi all,
>  >
>  >For those who expressed an interest in reading this list via nntp, you can already do
> it!
>  >
>  >Server: news.gmane.org
>  >Group: gmane.linux.redhat.fedora.general
>  >
>  >Marc
>  
>  Actually, it seems that there's already access available to this list by
>  pretty much any method one can choose! Now, it's just a matter of taste :-) 
This point seems to not be advertised very well.  Perhaps RedHat
simply need to list out all the options along side the mailing list. 
The big problem seems to be simply a lack of communication.  We get
duplicate posts because people sign up and don't search the archive. 
Some don't know the archives exist, all seem to find the archive
difficult to search, some don't know the particular customs of the
list etiquette, etc.  Maybe RedHat should simply clean up what we
already have instead trying to spin up another thing along side it to
only possibly add to the confusion.

Jonathan

Solution Coming Re: Fedora Community: Under threat?

[Max Kanat-Alexander]

On Tue, 2005-02-08 at 11:53 -0600, Les Mikesell wrote:
>  > 	http://www.fedorafaq.org/contribute/
>  
>  Is there any chance you could
>  add a wiki section?  I happen to like twiki, but you probably don't need
>  any of the special features. 
	Hey Les! I've definitely thought about a wiki before. I think the best
thing would be for somebody to start a wiki, perhaps a fedorawiki.org or
something like that, and then I could link to it from the FAQ.

	If anybody does start one, and it starts to be a really good source of
information, let me know and I'll definitely link to it! :-)

	-Max

Solution Coming Re: Fedora Community: Under threat?

[Wong Kwok-hon]

On Sat, 12 Feb 2005 23:34:29 -0800, Max Kanat-Alexander
<max_list(a)fedorafaq.org&gt; wrote:
>  On Tue, 2005-02-08 at 11:53 -0600, Les Mikesell wrote:
>  > >     http://www.fedorafaq.org/contribute/
>  >
>  > Is there any chance you could
>  > add a wiki section?  I happen to like twiki, but you probably don't need
>  > any of the special features.
>  
>          Hey Les! I've definitely thought about a wiki before. I think the best
>  thing would be for somebody to start a wiki, perhaps a fedorawiki.org or
>  something like that, and then I could link to it from the FAQ.
>  
>          If anybody does start one, and it starts to be a really good source of
>  information, let me know and I'll definitely link to it! :-)
>  
>          -Max 

I agreed. but I think make a page that can perform search function to
get help which the solution is /are get from this mailing list.
The  page of http://www.fedorafaq.org/contribute/ is a good start and
hope it have more information.


Wong Kwok Hon