1:10 p.m.
I wrote:
Paul W. Frields wrote:
> You can find SRPMS for those here, but I've only built these for
> Fedora 10. You're welcome to try rebuilding them for F8 but I can't
> make any promises or offer tech support. Caveat emptor!
>
>
http://pfrields.fedorapeople.org/packages/SRPMS/libgpod-0.7.0-0.1svn2184....
>
http://pfrields.fedorapeople.org/packages/SRPMS/gtkpod-0.99.13-0.1svn2184...
Hey, those are some fresh builds Paul! :)
Perhaps it's better to build libgpod-0.7.0rc1 (which is just a little
bit older, but upstream we'd like the testing). I've built packages,
but haven't put them up anywhere yet. I'll have to build for x86_64
and post them to my fedorapeople.org account.
Well, it was more than the few days I thought it would be, but I've
got builds of libgpod-0.7.0rc2, gtkpod-0.99.13SVN and rhythmbox for
F-9 and F-10 (i386 and x86_64) completed. They're even in a yum repo,
for handy testing:
http://tmz.fedorapeople.org/repo/libgpod/
Just grab the libgpod.repo file and put it in /etc/yum.repos.d, then
update or install libgpod, gtkpod or rhythmbox. The packages are
signed with the same key I use to sign my mail. Yum will prompt you
to install this key if you enable the above repository. The key
fingerprint is 2067 23CE 8C4A 9D39 9FFF B8E7 4325 938B BEAF 0CE3.
NOTE 1: These builds are only for folks wishing to test the libgpod
release candidates ad while I'm interested in reports of any problems,
I don't have the time to provide a lot of support.
NOTE 2: I have not built all of the things which require libgpod,
notably amarok is not built at this time. If you use amarok or have
it installed, then you should NOT use the above repo. (Also not
rebuilt are kipi-plugins, and, from rpmfusion, gnome-mplayer and
lastfm.)
If time permits, I'll hopefully get amarok and kipi-plugins added.
> My rebuilt gtkpod thus far had the fewest problems, especially
after
> I read the included documentation in
> /usr/share/gtkpod/doc/the-sysinfo-file.html.
You really shouldn't have to do any of this manually. If you do, then
there's a bug with the libgpod HAL support.
And there was just such a bug! Thanks to Paul for prodding, I've
fixed up the HAL callout in the 0.7.0rc2 packages so that it should
now actually run whenever an iPod is plugged in.
This exposed some SELinux denials, which are fixed for F-10 in
selinux-policy-3.5.13-38.fc10 (in updates-testing). They are
scheduled to get added to the policy on F-9 as well, but I don't think
that's been committed to the selinux-policy package in CVS yet. So on
F-9, you'd need to run in permissive mode when plugging in your iPod
for the first time to have the SysInfoExtended file setup.
--
Todd OpenPGP -> KeyID: 0xBEAF0CE3 | URL: www.pobox.com/~tmz/pgp
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Money frees you from doing things you dislike. Since I dislike doing
nearly everything, money is handy.
-- Groucho Marx
4:33 a.m.
New subject: hostapd for Fedora 10
Ed Greshko:
> I've deleted the "References" header from this
message so it should
> appear as a new thread.
Aaron Konstam:
On my machine in evolution it appears as part of the same thread.
There
is obviously something I don't understand about the complaints about
this that people keep making.
Look at Ed's message's headers. Ed's was a reply to Alex's, so they
still fit together. Alex's was still completely (erroneously) linked
into the thread, so it's still connected with the message that Alex
"replied" to. Ed's removing of the references just means that those two
messages are tied together, not the whole lot of them. It's, now, an
isolated branch in the thread.
--
[tim@localhost ~]$ uname -r
2.6.27.9-73.fc9.i686
Don't send private replies to my address, the mailbox is ignored. I
read messages from the public lists.
3:55 p.m.
On Thu, Jan 1, 2009 at 1:18 AM, Rex Dieter <rdieter(a)math.unl.edu> wrote:
Patrick O'Callaghan wrote:
> The main GUI window has 4 vertical tabs on the left:
> * Collection
> * Internet
> * Playlists
> * Files
How it's supposed to work is, in amarok's center pane, click '+', add
"Media Devices" applet. Haven't had a chance to procure an ipod yet myself
to test... ymmv.
I figured that might be it just after my last post (the '+' doesn't
exactly jump out at you), however it doesn't seem to do anything, not
even an error message.
This just in: if you have an ipod actually plugged in, it suddenly
appears! Not only, that, I can see the contents!
I'm afraid this is far too "user-friendly" for me :-) Some serious
interface rethinking to be done here, however I'll lay off till I've
actually tried it in anger.
poc
7:59 a.m.
New subject: hostapd for Fedora 10
On Wed, 2008-12-31 at 14:06 +0800, Ed Greshko wrote:
Support wrote:
> Hi,
>
> I have not setup an AP for a while and would like someone to point in
> the right direction on setting an AP on Fedora 10. One can only find
> hostapd for FC8 and not 10.
>
> Much appreciated in advanced!
>
You have committed one of the cardinal sins of mail list postings.
You've hijacked a thread.....
I've deleted the "References" header from this message so it should
appear as a new thread.
Don't reply to a message, and change the subject to your choice....
that is hijacking. Breaks threading an gives people an upset tummy.
On my machine in evolution it appears as part of the same thread. There
is obviously something I don't understand about the complaints about
this that people keep making.
--
=======================================================================
There is no education that is not political. An apolitical education is
also political because it is purposely isolating.
=======================================================================
Aaron Konstam telephone: (210) 656-0355 e-mail: akonstam(a)sbcglobal.net
4:29 a.m.
On Wed, 31 Dec 2008 16:42:02 +1930, Patrick wrote:
>> > Patrick O'Callaghan wrote:
>> >> Amarok 2 from the standard (non-testing) Fedora repo does not support
>> >> any media player, including ipods, in any shape or form. I don't
mean
>> >> the support doesn't work, I mean it isn't physically there.
>> >
>> > What does it link these in for then?
>> > libgpod.so.3()(64bit)
>> > libmtp.so.8()(64bit)
>>
>> $ ldd /usr/bin/amarok|egrep gpod\|mtp
>> $
>
> Try again with
>
> libamarok_collection-ipodcollection.so
> libamarok_collection-mtpcollection.so
What do you mean? The /usr/bin/amarok binary contains no library
references to anything with gpod, or ipod, or mtp in its name. Once
more with feeling:
$ ldd /usr/bin/amarok|egrep gpod\|ipod\|mtp
$ rpm -q amarok
amarok-2.0-2.fc10.x86_64
$ rpm -ql amarok|egrep gpod\|ipod\|mtp
/usr/lib64/kde4/libamarok_collection-ipodcollection.so
/usr/lib64/kde4/libamarok_collection-mtpcollection.so
/usr/share/kde4/services/amarok_collection-ipodcollection.desktop
/usr/share/kde4/services/amarok_collection-mtpcollection.desktop
$
IOW the package does contain this stuff, but the executable doesn't
refer to it.
ldd /usr/bin/amarok is insufficient if you want to prove that.
Examine libamaroklib.so.1.0.0, its symbols and what it is linked with.
If you don't want to use objdump and similar, even using "strings"
reveals something. It may be necessary to skim over the source code
to find out how and when these plugins are activated.
12:06 a.m.
New subject: hostapd for Fedora 10
Support wrote:
Hi,
I have not setup an AP for a while and would like someone to point in
the right direction on setting an AP on Fedora 10. One can only find
hostapd for FC8 and not 10.
Much appreciated in advanced!
You have committed one of the cardinal sins of mail list postings.
You've hijacked a thread.....
I've deleted the "References" header from this message so it should
appear as a new thread.
Don't reply to a message, and change the subject to your choice....
that is hijacking. Breaks threading an gives people an upset tummy.
--
idleness, n.: Leisure gone to seed. Mei-Mei.Greshko(a)greshko.com
12:05 a.m.
New subject: hostapd for Fedora 10
Hi,
I have not setup an AP for a while and would like someone to point in
the right direction on setting an AP on Fedora 10. One can only find
hostapd for FC8 and not 10.
Much appreciated in advanced!
Alex
11:48 p.m.
Patrick O'Callaghan wrote:
The main GUI window has 4 vertical tabs on the left:
* Collection
* Internet
* Playlists
* Files
How it's supposed to work is, in amarok's center pane, click '+', add
"Media Devices" applet. Haven't had a chance to procure an ipod yet myself
to test... ymmv.
-- Rex
6:53 p.m.
On Sun, Dec 28, 2008 at 11:09:56AM -0500, Jim wrote:
FC 8
What Fedora application can I successfully sync my Ipod with ??
There isn't support for the newest iPods like the 4th-generation 8GB
Nanos in current libgpod, gtkpod, and rhythmbox. My wife got one of
these for Christmas and I spent a significant amount of time getting
it working for her.
You can find SRPMS for those here, but I've only built these for
Fedora 10. You're welcome to try rebuilding them for F8 but I can't
make any promises or offer tech support. Caveat emptor!
http://pfrields.fedorapeople.org/packages/SRPMS/libgpod-0.7.0-0.1svn2184....
http://pfrields.fedorapeople.org/packages/SRPMS/gtkpod-0.99.13-0.1svn2184...
I then rebuilt the rhythmbox already in CVS against the new libgpod,
too. I would expect that you'll see some sort of update for F-9 and
F-10 down the road a bit to support all these newer models.
The banshee application had some support, but:
* wouldn't load podcasts
* continually screwed up the cover art database
My rebuilt gtkpod thus far had the fewest problems, especially after I
read the included documentation in
/usr/share/gtkpod/doc/the-sysinfo-file.html.
--
Paul W. Frields http://paul.frields.org/
gpg fingerprint: 3DA6 A0AC 6D58 FEC4 0233 5906 ACDB C937 BD11 3717
http://redhat.com/ - - - - http://pfrields.fedorapeople.org/
irc.freenode.net: stickster @ #fedora-docs, #fedora-devel, #fredlug
3:12 p.m.
On Wed, Dec 31, 2008 at 2:33 PM, Michael Schwendt <mschwendt(a)gmail.com> wrote:
On Wed, 31 Dec 2008 14:09:21 +1930, Patrick wrote:
> On Wed, Dec 31, 2008 at 10:19 AM, Kevin Kofler <kevin.kofler(a)chello.at> wrote:
> > Patrick O'Callaghan wrote:
> >> Amarok 2 from the standard (non-testing) Fedora repo does not support
> >> any media player, including ipods, in any shape or form. I don't mean
> >> the support doesn't work, I mean it isn't physically there.
> >
> > What does it link these in for then?
> > libgpod.so.3()(64bit)
> > libmtp.so.8()(64bit)
>
> $ ldd /usr/bin/amarok|egrep gpod\|mtp
> $
Try again with
libamarok_collection-ipodcollection.so
libamarok_collection-mtpcollection.so
What do you mean? The /usr/bin/amarok binary contains no library
references to anything with gpod, or ipod, or mtp in its name. Once
more with feeling:
$ ldd /usr/bin/amarok|egrep gpod\|ipod\|mtp
$ rpm -q amarok
amarok-2.0-2.fc10.x86_64
$ rpm -ql amarok|egrep gpod\|ipod\|mtp
/usr/lib64/kde4/libamarok_collection-ipodcollection.so
/usr/lib64/kde4/libamarok_collection-mtpcollection.so
/usr/share/kde4/services/amarok_collection-ipodcollection.desktop
/usr/share/kde4/services/amarok_collection-mtpcollection.desktop
$
IOW the package does contain this stuff, but the executable doesn't
refer to it. Furthermore, there is no apparent way of loading plugins
that I can see after extensive and careful perusal of the interface,
including the Configuration dialogue.
Attempting to read the online help gives a window with:
There is no documentation available for /amarok/index.html.
The main GUI window has 4 vertical tabs on the left:
* Collection
* Internet
* Playlists
* Files
In Amarok 1.x there was also a tab for external media. That no longer exists.
poc
1:14 p.m.
You can also use Yamipod
On Sun, Dec 28, 2008 at 7:07 PM, Todd Zullinger <tmz(a)pobox.com> wrote:
Jim wrote:
> FC 8
That will be unsupported in just about a week (in case you weren't
already aware of that).
> What Fedora application can I successfully sync my Ipod with ??
What iPod? For models other than the new iPhone and Touch, you should
be alright.
Amarok, banshee, gtkpod, and rhythmbox are just a few of the apps that
should work well for managing your iPod.
--
Todd OpenPGP -> KeyID: 0xBEAF0CE3 | URL:
www.pobox.com/~tmz/pgp<http://www.pobox.com/%7Etmz/pgp>
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
I have to decide between two equally frightening options. If I wanted
to do that, I'd vote.
-- Duckman
--
fedora-list mailing list
fedora-list(a)redhat.com
To unsubscribe: https://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/fedora-list
Guidelines:
http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Communicate/MailingListGuidelines
--
http://www.goldwatches.com/
http://www.jewelerslounge.com/
1:03 p.m.
On Wed, 31 Dec 2008 14:09:21 +1930, Patrick wrote:
On Wed, Dec 31, 2008 at 10:19 AM, Kevin Kofler
<kevin.kofler(a)chello.at> wrote:
> Patrick O'Callaghan wrote:
>> Amarok 2 from the standard (non-testing) Fedora repo does not support
>> any media player, including ipods, in any shape or form. I don't mean
>> the support doesn't work, I mean it isn't physically there.
>
> What does it link these in for then?
> libgpod.so.3()(64bit)
> libmtp.so.8()(64bit)
$ ldd /usr/bin/amarok|egrep gpod\|mtp
$
Try again with
libamarok_collection-ipodcollection.so
libamarok_collection-mtpcollection.so
;)
12:39 p.m.
On Wed, Dec 31, 2008 at 10:19 AM, Kevin Kofler <kevin.kofler(a)chello.at> wrote:
Patrick O'Callaghan wrote:
> Amarok 2 from the standard (non-testing) Fedora repo does not support
> any media player, including ipods, in any shape or form. I don't mean
> the support doesn't work, I mean it isn't physically there.
What does it link these in for then?
libgpod.so.3()(64bit)
libmtp.so.8()(64bit)
$ ldd /usr/bin/amarok|egrep gpod\|mtp
$
poc
8:49 a.m.
Patrick O'Callaghan wrote:
Amarok 2 from the standard (non-testing) Fedora repo does not
support
any media player, including ipods, in any shape or form. I don't mean
the support doesn't work, I mean it isn't physically there.
What does it link these in for then?
libgpod.so.3()(64bit)
libmtp.so.8()(64bit)
Kevin Kofler
2:02 a.m.
On Monday 29 December 2008 17:12:55 Patrick O'Callaghan wrote:
On Mon, Dec 29, 2008 at 12:37 PM, Todd Zullinger
<tmz(a)pobox.com> wrote:
> Amarok, banshee, gtkpod, and rhythmbox are just a few of the apps that
> should work well for managing your iPod.
Amarok 2 no longer works with media players, including ipods. This is
supposed to be fixed some time down the road.
I think I read a couple of days ago that ipod support had just been committed,
so it won't have filtered down yet.
Anne
10:07 p.m.
On Tue, Dec 30, 2008 at 10:51 PM, Kevin Kofler <kevin.kofler(a)chello.at> wrote:
Patrick O'Callaghan wrote:
> Amarok 2 no longer works with media players, including ipods. This is
> supposed to be fixed some time down the road.
iPods are supposed to be supported, but the emphasis is on "supposed to",
there are reports to the contrary. Support for MTP devices is also there in
principle. Plain USB mass storage devices are currently not supported
(except as regular file system directories).
To paraphrase the Hitchiker's Guide to the Galaxy, this must be some
strange new usage of the word "support" with which I was not
previously familiar.
Amarok 2 from the standard (non-testing) Fedora repo does not support
any media player, including ipods, in any shape or form. I don't mean
the support doesn't work, I mean it isn't physically there.
poc
9:21 p.m.
Patrick O'Callaghan wrote:
Amarok 2 no longer works with media players, including ipods. This
is
supposed to be fixed some time down the road.
iPods are supposed to be supported, but the emphasis is on "supposed to",
there are reports to the contrary. Support for MTP devices is also there in
principle. Plain USB mass storage devices are currently not supported
(except as regular file system directories).
Kevin Kofler
11:12 a.m.
On Mon, Dec 29, 2008 at 12:37 PM, Todd Zullinger <tmz(a)pobox.com> wrote:
Amarok, banshee, gtkpod, and rhythmbox are just a few of the apps
that
should work well for managing your iPod.
Amarok 2 no longer works with media players, including ipods. This is
supposed to be fixed some time down the road.
poc
12:41 a.m.
New subject: hostapd for Fedora 10
On Sat, 2009-01-03 at 00:58 +0800, Fennix wrote:
Why does this question often appear on what gmail shows as "new
threads?"
That'd be down to the way gmail works, or is configured. Sounds like
it's time for you to wade through gmail's configuration options, and
read the help for any functions that you don't understand.
--
[tim@localhost ~]$ uname -r
2.6.27.9-73.fc9.i686
Don't send private replies to my address, the mailbox is ignored. I
read messages from the public lists.
5:28 p.m.
New subject: hostapd for Fedora 10
Fennix wrote:
Really want to understand this question. Why does this question
often
appear on what gmail shows as "new threads?"
Maybe GMail ignores the References header if the subject changed.
But most threaded mail clients will assume the author knows what he/she is
doing when he/she decides to reply to a message. In the threaded world,
replying is not just a way to specify the address to send to, it also
specifies what thread the message belongs to. Users who do not use threaded
mail clients usually do not realize this. I blame the mail clients because
they fail to make it clear what Reply really does (they don't show the
References header at all - if they showed "In reply to: [link]" above the
To: field, more people would realize what they're doing, and the client
could also give them the opportunity to easily (with a [Clear] button)
delete the References header if what they're sending is not actually a
reply).
Kevin Kofler
10:58 a.m.
New subject: hostapd for Fedora 10
On Wed, Dec 31, 2008 at 2:06 PM, Ed Greshko <Ed.Greshko(a)greshko.com> wrote:
Support wrote:
> Hi,
>
> I have not setup an AP for a while and would like someone to point in
> the right direction on setting an AP on Fedora 10. One can only find
> hostapd for FC8 and not 10.
>
> Much appreciated in advanced!
>
You have committed one of the cardinal sins of mail list postings.
You've hijacked a thread.....
I've deleted the "References" header from this message so it should
appear as a new thread.
Don't reply to a message, and change the subject to your choice....
that is hijacking. Breaks threading an gives people an upset tummy.
--
idleness, n.: Leisure gone to seed. Mei-Mei.Greshko(a)greshko.com
--
fedora-list mailing list
fedora-list(a)redhat.com
To unsubscribe: https://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/fedora-list
Guidelines:
http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Communicate/MailingListGuidelines
Hi Ed and Alex.
Really do not understand the complaint about "Hijacked Thread." My email
is gmail and shows Alex with the 1st email of a new thread and Ed replying
with 2nd message that this is a hijacked subject.... This is not the first
time I have seen this with a new thread. Does this show differently with
other email readers?
Really want to understand this question. Why does this question often
appear on what gmail shows as "new threads?"
Fnnix
4:39 p.m.
Endy wrote:
I would recommend checking out songbird ( www.getsongbird.com ).
It's got ipod integration that is fairly similar to itunes and
works great.
But songbird isn't included in Fedora, unlike the apps I mentioned. :/
Hopefully, the Songbird folks will get their patches to xulrunner
upstreamed and then Songbird will be acceptable in Fedora.
They're working on it. I do know that they've sent patches to libgpod
upstream (which they use for iPod integration -- just like Amarok,
Gtkpod, and Rhythmbox do).
--
Todd OpenPGP -> KeyID: 0xBEAF0CE3 | URL: www.pobox.com/~tmz/pgp
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Time may be a great healer, but it's a lousy beautician.
11:53 a.m.
Todd Zullinger wrote:
Jim wrote:
> FC 8
>
That will be unsupported in just about a week (in case you weren't
already aware of that).
> What Fedora application can I successfully sync my Ipod with ??
>
What iPod? For models other than the new iPhone and Touch, you should
be alright.
Amarok, banshee, gtkpod, and rhythmbox are just a few of the apps that
should work well for managing your iPod.
Just a 8gb Ipod.
Thanks.
11:07 a.m.
Jim wrote:
FC 8
That will be unsupported in just about a week (in case you weren't
already aware of that).
What Fedora application can I successfully sync my Ipod with ??
What iPod? For models other than the new iPhone and Touch, you should
be alright.
Amarok, banshee, gtkpod, and rhythmbox are just a few of the apps that
should work well for managing your iPod.
--
Todd OpenPGP -> KeyID: 0xBEAF0CE3 | URL: www.pobox.com/~tmz/pgp
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
I have to decide between two equally frightening options. If I wanted
to do that, I'd vote.
-- Duckman
9:44 a.m.
Jim wrote:
Todd Zullinger wrote:
> Jim wrote:
>
>> FC 8
>>
>
> That will be unsupported in just about a week (in case you weren't
> already aware of that).
>
>
>> What Fedora application can I successfully sync my Ipod with ??
>>
>
> What iPod? For models other than the new iPhone and Touch, you should
> be alright.
>
> Amarok, banshee, gtkpod, and rhythmbox are just a few of the apps that
> should work well for managing your iPod.
>
>
Just a 8gb Ipod.
Thanks.
I would recommend checking out songbird ( www.getsongbird.com ). It's
got ipod integration that is fairly similar to itunes and works great.
10:01 p.m.
Paul W. Frields wrote:
There isn't support for the newest iPods like the 4th-generation
8GB
Nanos in current libgpod, gtkpod, and rhythmbox. My wife got one of
these for Christmas and I spent a significant amount of time getting
it working for her.
Other than some artwork issues, libgpod-0.6.0 should support those
iPod's. The apps which use libgpod may not offer those models in
their ipod selections, but the support hasn't changed much other than
the artwork support -- which I understand is mostly related to cover
flow.
You can find SRPMS for those here, but I've only built these for
Fedora 10. You're welcome to try rebuilding them for F8 but I can't
make any promises or offer tech support. Caveat emptor!
http://pfrields.fedorapeople.org/packages/SRPMS/libgpod-0.7.0-0.1svn2184....
http://pfrields.fedorapeople.org/packages/SRPMS/gtkpod-0.99.13-0.1svn2184...
Hey, those are some fresh builds Paul! :)
Perhaps it's better to build libgpod-0.7.0rc1 (which is just a little
bit older, but upstream we'd like the testing). I've built packages,
but haven't put them up anywhere yet. I'll have to build for x86_64
and post them to my fedorapeople.org account.
I'll work on building libgpod-0.7.0rc1, gtkpod-0.99.13SVN, and
rhythmbox for x86_64 and post those builds along with the i386 builds
that I have already done in the next few days.
I then rebuilt the rhythmbox already in CVS against the new libgpod,
too. I would expect that you'll see some sort of update for F-9 and
F-10 down the road a bit to support all these newer models.
We expect to have libgpod-0.7.0 released sometime in the next few
weeks, FWIW. Once released, I'll build these for rawhide as quickly
as possible. Hopefully after some testing there, we'll push updates
back to F-10 (and *maybe* F-9).
My rebuilt gtkpod thus far had the fewest problems, especially after
I read the included documentation in
/usr/share/gtkpod/doc/the-sysinfo-file.html.
You really shouldn't have to do any of this manually. If you do, then
there's a bug with the libgpod HAL support. I've had a few random
reports of this sort, but no one yet has been able to help pinpoint
what might have gone wrong so we haven't been able to find and fix any
bugs that might be present there. The goal is that plugging in an
iPod should cause libgpod's hal callout to setup the SysInfoExtended
file automagically. Any help in identifying cases where this does not
work would be greatly appreciated. I'll do my best to make sure that
we get such things fixed upstream so everyone can benefit. :)
--
Todd OpenPGP -> KeyID: 0xBEAF0CE3 | URL: www.pobox.com/~tmz/pgp
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
To err is human; to blame it on somebody else is even more human.
-- John Nadeau
5586
days inactive
5596
days old
26 comments
15 participants
participants (15)
-
Aaron Konstam -
Anne Wilson -
Ed Greshko -
Endy -
Fennix -
James Matthews -
Jim -
Kevin Kofler -
Michael Schwendt -
Patrick O'Callaghan -
Paul W. Frields -
Rex Dieter -
Support -
Tim -
Todd Zullinger