Hi all,
I am Simon and I am blind. I tried to boot a Fedora Workstation 25 live USB without a screen attached to a desktop machine. It seems the machine doesn't boot completely at least hanging while the desktop should come up.
On the arch wiki i read something about x server and its autoconfig mode where it detects the screen and if no screen is present it stops starting the desktop which makes the PC hang.
According to the wayland mailing list this also happens with wayland though wayland supports screenless booting. which needs to be specified in the wayland adapter for gnome.
Anyone maybe knows more about that?
I thought of using Fedora on a project i have in my mind. Having a small PC without a screen in the kitchen would be pretty interesting. navigation is done using a keyboard and knowing where we are is done using the orca screen reader and speakers.
Attaching a screen would be the last thing i want to do.
Greetings, Simon
Mit freundlichen Grüßen Simon Eigeldinger Informatik Nebengebäude 1, OG1
Stadt Hohenems Kaiser-Franz-Josef-Straße 4 6845 Hohenems Österreich Tel.: +43 5576 7101-1143 Fax: +43 5576 7101-1149 E-Mail: simon.eigeldinger@hohenems.atmailto:simon.eigeldinger@hohenems.at Web: www.hohenems.athttp://www.hohenems.at
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On 03/27/17 15:46, Eigeldinger Simon wrote:
I am Simon and I am blind.
I tried to boot a Fedora Workstation 25 live USB without a screen attached to a desktop machine.
It seems the machine doesn't boot completely at least hanging while the desktop should come up.
On the arch wiki i read something about x server and its autoconfig mode where it detects the screen and if no screen is present it stops starting the desktop which makes the PC hang.
According to the wayland mailing list this also happens with wayland though wayland supports screenless booting. which needs to be specified in the wayland adapter for gnome.
Anyone maybe knows more about that?
I thought of using Fedora on a project i have in my mind. Having a small PC without a screen in the kitchen would be pretty interesting. navigation is done using a keyboard and knowing where we are is done using the orca screen reader and speakers.
Attaching a screen would be the last thing i want to do.
What is your video output?
If it is HDMI, maybe get a "dummy" plug to fake the system into thinking it has a monitor connected.
https://www.amazon.com/s/ref=nb_sb_noss?url=search-alias%3Daps&field-key...
Similar plugs are available for DVI.
Hi Ed,
Here's a extract from an article about this matter: Source: http://blog.zorinaq.com/the-5-second-vga-dummy-plug/
It made sense for drivers to not enable a GPU when no monitor was attached to it. But since the rise of GPGPU applications, graphics vendors AMD and NVIDIA realized that this behavior was inconvenient. At least with the most recent Linux drivers, dummy plugs are not necessary anymore.
So I wonder if the problem lies somewhere else.
Greetings, Simon
Mit freundlichen Grüßen
Simon Eigeldinger Informatik Nebengebäude 1, OG1 ------------------------- Stadt Hohenems Kaiser-Franz-Josef-Straße 4 6845 Hohenems Österreich Tel.: +43 5576 7101-1143 Fax: +43 5576 7101-1149 E-Mail: simon.eigeldinger@hohenems.at Web: www.hohenems.at
Diese Nachricht und allfällige angehängte Dokumente sind vertraulich und nur für den/die Adressaten bestimmt. -----Ursprüngliche Nachricht----- Von: Ed Greshko [mailto:ed.greshko@greshko.com] Gesendet: Montag, 27. März 2017 14:00 An: Community support for Fedora users users@lists.fedoraproject.org Betreff: Re: F25: Desktop PC not booting without a screen
On 03/27/17 15:46, Eigeldinger Simon wrote:
I am Simon and I am blind.
I tried to boot a Fedora Workstation 25 live USB without a screen attached to a desktop machine.
It seems the machine doesn't boot completely at least hanging while the desktop should come up.
On the arch wiki i read something about x server and its autoconfig mode where it detects the screen and if no screen is present it stops starting the desktop which makes the PC hang.
According to the wayland mailing list this also happens with wayland though wayland supports screenless booting. which needs to be specified in the wayland adapter for gnome.
Anyone maybe knows more about that?
I thought of using Fedora on a project i have in my mind. Having a small PC without a screen in the kitchen would be pretty interesting. navigation is done using a keyboard and knowing where we are is done using the orca screen reader and speakers.
Attaching a screen would be the last thing i want to do.
What is your video output?
If it is HDMI, maybe get a "dummy" plug to fake the system into thinking it has a monitor connected.
https://www.amazon.com/s/ref=nb_sb_noss?url=search-alias%3Daps&field-key...
Similar plugs are available for DVI.
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On Mon, 27 Mar 2017 12:37:30 +0000 Eigeldinger Simon simon.eigeldinger@hohenems.at wrote:
Hi Ed,
Here's a extract from an article about this matter: Source: http://blog.zorinaq.com/the-5-second-vga-dummy-plug/
It made sense for drivers to not enable a GPU when no monitor was attached to it. But since the rise of GPGPU applications, graphics vendors AMD and NVIDIA realized that this behavior was inconvenient. At least with the most recent Linux drivers, dummy plugs are not necessary anymore.
So I wonder if the problem lies somewhere else.
The first answer on this page tells how to fake an attached monitor on linux using the dummy driver. On Fedora that is package xorg-x11-drv-dummy-0.3.7-1.fc25.x86_64 It involves creating a dummy xorg.conf with the parameters you want, since there is no edid to read from the monitor to automatically create it.
It's for Ubuntu, but should work fine on Fedora.
http://askubuntu.com/questions/453109/add-fake-display-when-no-monitor-is-pl...
There seem to be problems with it if an actual monitor is attached in addition to the dummy, but that should not be a problem for you. If necessary, though not stated there, it should be possible to create a second configuration for the attached monitor, and then specify which screen you want to load at X startup (it defaults to screen 0).
On 03/28/17 00:52, stan wrote:
On Mon, 27 Mar 2017 12:37:30 +0000 Eigeldinger Simon simon.eigeldinger@hohenems.at wrote:
Hi Ed,
Here's a extract from an article about this matter: Source: http://blog.zorinaq.com/the-5-second-vga-dummy-plug/
It made sense for drivers to not enable a GPU when no monitor was attached to it. But since the rise of GPGPU applications, graphics vendors AMD and NVIDIA realized that this behavior was inconvenient. At least with the most recent Linux drivers, dummy plugs are not necessary anymore.
So I wonder if the problem lies somewhere else.
The first answer on this page tells how to fake an attached monitor on linux using the dummy driver. On Fedora that is package xorg-x11-drv-dummy-0.3.7-1.fc25.x86_64 It involves creating a dummy xorg.conf with the parameters you want, since there is no edid to read from the monitor to automatically create it.
It's for Ubuntu, but should work fine on Fedora.
http://askubuntu.com/questions/453109/add-fake-display-when-no-monitor-is-pl...
There seem to be problems with it if an actual monitor is attached in addition to the dummy, but that should not be a problem for you. If necessary, though not stated there, it should be possible to create a second configuration for the attached monitor, and then specify which screen you want to load at X startup (it defaults to screen 0).
To me, all of this makes perfect sense when applied to an installed and running system.
However, in the original post, Simon referred to booting a "Fedora Workstation Live USB". AFAIK, the Live image does not contain the xorg-x11-drv-dummy. Additionally, the way the Live image is structured I don't believe there is the chance to make a configuration change to the drivers that are being used.
That is why I only suggested the dummy plugs.
On Tue, 28 Mar 2017 05:47:39 +0800 Ed Greshko ed.greshko@greshko.com wrote:
To me, all of this makes perfect sense when applied to an installed and running system.
However, in the original post, Simon referred to booting a "Fedora Workstation Live USB". AFAIK, the Live image does not contain the xorg-x11-drv-dummy. Additionally, the way the Live image is structured I don't believe there is the chance to make a configuration change to the drivers that are being used.
That is why I only suggested the dummy plugs.
Thanks for the correction. I missed that little detail. :-)
Hi Stan, Hi Ed,
I guess the plugs or the transistor seems to be the only solution at the moment. I wonder if we could ask the devs to find a solution to that? According to the wayland people this shouldn't be much trouble. As far as i know Fedora already uses wayland?
Greetings and thanks, Simon
Mit freundlichen Grüßen
Simon Eigeldinger Informatik Nebengebäude 1, OG1 ------------------------- Stadt Hohenems Kaiser-Franz-Josef-Straße 4 6845 Hohenems Österreich Tel.: +43 5576 7101-1143 Fax: +43 5576 7101-1149 E-Mail: simon.eigeldinger@hohenems.at Web: www.hohenems.at
Diese Nachricht und allfällige angehängte Dokumente sind vertraulich und nur für den/die Adressaten bestimmt. -----Ursprüngliche Nachricht----- Von: stan [mailto:stanl-fedorauser@vfemail.net] Gesendet: Dienstag, 28. März 2017 00:13 An: users@lists.fedoraproject.org Betreff: Re: F25: Desktop PC not booting without a screen
On Tue, 28 Mar 2017 05:47:39 +0800 Ed Greshko ed.greshko@greshko.com wrote:
To me, all of this makes perfect sense when applied to an installed and running system.
However, in the original post, Simon referred to booting a "Fedora Workstation Live USB". AFAIK, the Live image does not contain the xorg-x11-drv-dummy. Additionally, the way the Live image is structured I don't believe there is the chance to make a configuration change to the drivers that are being used.
That is why I only suggested the dummy plugs.
Thanks for the correction. I missed that little detail. :-) _______________________________________________ users mailing list -- users@lists.fedoraproject.org To unsubscribe send an email to users-leave@lists.fedoraproject.org
On 03/28/17 14:13, Eigeldinger Simon wrote:
I guess the plugs or the transistor seems to be the only solution at the moment. I wonder if we could ask the devs to find a solution to that?
Well, given the nature of the LiveOS images they would have to create a whole new "spin" that is pre-configured to run the way you desire. I don't know how much effort would be involved. But it would add to the QA process. But it never hurts to ask.
According to the wayland people this shouldn't be much trouble. As far as i know Fedora already uses wayland?
For the Gnome desktop the default is now Wayland with a fallback to X11 if the drivers in use don't support Wayland.
On Tue, 28 Mar 2017 15:53:44 +0800 Ed Greshko ed.greshko@greshko.com wrote:
On 03/28/17 14:13, Eigeldinger Simon wrote:
I guess the plugs or the transistor seems to be the only solution at the moment. I wonder if we could ask the devs to find a solution to that?
Well, given the nature of the LiveOS images they would have to create a whole new "spin" that is pre-configured to run the way you desire. I don't know how much effort would be involved. But it would add to the QA process. But it never hurts to ask.
According to the wayland people this shouldn't be much trouble. As far as i know Fedora already uses wayland?
For the Gnome desktop the default is now Wayland with a fallback to X11 if the drivers in use don't support Wayland.
Ed is right.
But there might be a messy workaround using the existing LiveOS image. I've never done this, and I haven't used a LiveOS, so these instructions could be completely wrong. After you are booted into the image, switch to a virtual console (Ctrl-Alt-F2). I think that you can then login as root with the empty password, but that is from memory of messages on the mailing list. If you can, you can then dnf install the dummy driver, and add the xorg.conf file for it. Since you aren't using actual hardware, you can make the screen 4k for lots of real estate, if you want. Then kill X. You might be able to just logout of the gui desktop (Ctrl-Alt-F1), but that also might shutdown the LiveOS. If logging out doesn't work, you can find the pid of X by using top or ps. After X is no longer running, switch to a different virtual console (Ctrl-Alt-F3), and type startx. This should start X with the dummy screen. A lot of ifs and maybes in there, but it might work.
If it does, it would only last while you were up with the current version of the LiveOS. If you rebooted, you would have to go through it all again.
Another possibility is building a custom virtual image that does what you want. But I'm even more ignorant there than about LiveOS images.
Hi Stan, Hi Ed,
Am 28.03.2017 um 16:54 schrieb stan:
On Tue, 28 Mar 2017 15:53:44 +0800 Ed Greshko ed.greshko@greshko.com wrote:
On 03/28/17 14:13, Eigeldinger Simon wrote:
I guess the plugs or the transistor seems to be the only solution at the moment. I wonder if we could ask the devs to find a solution to that?
Well, given the nature of the LiveOS images they would have to create a whole new "spin" that is pre-configured to run the way you desire. I don't know how much effort would be involved. But it would add to the QA process. But it never hurts to ask.
According to the wayland people this shouldn't be much trouble. As far as i know Fedora already uses wayland?
For the Gnome desktop the default is now Wayland with a fallback to X11 if the drivers in use don't support Wayland.
Ed is right.
I partly agree unfortunately. according to the wayland people its a small mod in the gnome wayland adapter which can then also being used in screenless mode and in a screen mode. so basically it checks if a screen is present and then does its normal job or if a screen isn't present it still continues booting and starting gnome.
maybe another idea also might be some adapters. if they draw enough power the machine might be thinking its something attached. i will check tomorrow in the office. we have some lying around.
greetings and thanks, Simon
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