After RH and Fedora statistics, some more results:
http://www.dedoimedo.com/computers/fedora-16.html
The purpose of a distro project is to deliver a product (not to maintain a test system OS), with implied quality, and for a user.
It is time to blink.
JB
On 23 November 2011 09:57, JB jb.1234abcd@gmail.com wrote:
After RH and Fedora statistics, some more results:
http://www.dedoimedo.com/computers/fedora-16.html
The purpose of a distro project is to deliver a product (not to maintain a test system OS), with implied quality, and for a user.
It is time to blink.
Aside from a bit of theme bashing basically another critique of Gnome 3. I think F16 has actually improved on F15 in terms of responsiveness and what works in it. If someone doesn't like the wallpaper they can change it. The rest... export restrictions, well surprisingly US based organisations have to comply with US laws, even if you use the GPL it still has to sit within that. Hebron as a time zone, no idea why Fedora has it, nor why the author takes particular exception to it, don't care.
On Wed, Nov 23, 2011 at 11:08:16AM +0000, Ian Malone wrote:
still has to sit within that. Hebron as a time zone, no idea why Fedora has it, nor why the author takes particular exception to it, don't care.
That guy clearly should read /usr/share/doc/tzdata-2011n/Theory which explains why cities are chosen instead of region names and when new timezones need to be added (as has Asia/Hebron been recently added). Asia/Jerusalem is different from Asia/Hebron or Asia/Gaza in when DST is or is not observed, either this year or at least in some years since 1970. The timezone database uses Hebron instead of Ramallah because Hebron is bigger, similarly how most of China uses Asia/Shanghai instead of Asia/Beijing.
Jakub
On 11/23/2011 4:57 AM, JB wrote:
After RH and Fedora statistics, some more results:
http://www.dedoimedo.com/computers/fedora-16.html
The purpose of a distro project is to deliver a product (not to maintain a test system OS), with implied quality, and for a user.
It is time to blink.
JB
He returns! The Troll is back.
On 11/23/2011 03:57 AM, JB wrote:
The purpose of a distro project is to deliver a product (not to maintain a test system OS), with implied quality, and for a user.
It is time to blink.
JB
And here I though different distributions were targeted to different users, and not all the same. I did not know that Fedora was even considered a product. I thought it was a test bed for new ideas and software.
Now, I would consider RedHat Linux a product. Ubuntu could also be considered a product. To a lesser extent CentOS, and other distributions based on RH Linux are products.
Just my thoughts on the subject... Mikkel
On Wed, 2011-11-23 at 12:37 +0100, Jakub Jelinek wrote:
On Wed, Nov 23, 2011 at 11:08:16AM +0000, Ian Malone wrote:
still has to sit within that. Hebron as a time zone, no idea why Fedora has it, nor why the author takes particular exception to it, don't care.
That guy clearly should read /usr/share/doc/tzdata-2011n/Theory which explains why cities are chosen instead of region names and when new timezones need to be added (as has Asia/Hebron been recently added). Asia/Jerusalem is different from Asia/Hebron or Asia/Gaza in when DST is or is not observed, either this year or at least in some years since 1970. The timezone database uses Hebron instead of Ramallah because Hebron is bigger, similarly how most of China uses Asia/Shanghai instead of Asia/Beijing.
Jakub
Now there is news! Hebron is bigger than Ramallah? Not really. Sorry that is really OT. The other information included above was interesting and informative.
On Wed, Nov 23, 2011 at 08:41:08AM -0600, Aaron Konstam wrote:
That guy clearly should read /usr/share/doc/tzdata-2011n/Theory which explains why cities are chosen instead of region names and when new timezones need to be added (as has Asia/Hebron been recently added). Asia/Jerusalem is different from Asia/Hebron or Asia/Gaza in when DST is or is not observed, either this year or at least in some years since 1970. The timezone database uses Hebron instead of Ramallah because Hebron is bigger, similarly how most of China uses Asia/Shanghai instead of Asia/Beijing.
Now there is news! Hebron is bigger than Ramallah? Not really.
Of course it is. Read e.g. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/West_Bank Hebron has population over 160000, Ramallah not even 30000.
Jakub
Jakub Jelinek <jakub <at> redhat.com> writes:
On Wed, Nov 23, 2011 at 08:41:08AM -0600, Aaron Konstam wrote:
That guy clearly should read /usr/share/doc/tzdata-2011n/Theory which explains why cities are chosen instead of region names and when new timezones need to be added (as has Asia/Hebron been recently added). Asia/Jerusalem is different from Asia/Hebron or Asia/Gaza in when DST is or is not observed, either this year or at least in some years since 1970.
Well, but are you not getting a bit too sophisticated in that neck of the woods ? There are towns in the US that do not observe daylight saving times - should they get their own time zones too ?
JB
On Wed, Nov 23, 2011 at 03:08:54PM +0000, JB wrote:
On Wed, Nov 23, 2011 at 08:41:08AM -0600, Aaron Konstam wrote:
That guy clearly should read /usr/share/doc/tzdata-2011n/Theory which explains why cities are chosen instead of region names and when new timezones need to be added (as has Asia/Hebron been recently added). Asia/Jerusalem is different from Asia/Hebron or Asia/Gaza in when DST is or is not observed, either this year or at least in some years since 1970.
Well, but are you not getting a bit too sophisticated in that neck of the woods ? There are towns in the US that do not observe daylight saving times - should they get their own time zones too ?
Please read the Theory file, of course the regions in the US that do not observe DST or haven't in some time range since 1970 have also separate time zone names named after biggest cities in those regions. See e.g. America/North_Dakota/New_Salem, America/Phoenix, America/Boise, America/Indiana/Indianapolis, America/Indiana/Marengo, America/Indiana/Vincennes, America/Indiana/Tell_City, America/Indiana/Petersburg and several others.
Jakub
On Wed, 2011-11-23 at 15:54 +0100, Jakub Jelinek wrote:
On Wed, Nov 23, 2011 at 08:41:08AM -0600, Aaron Konstam wrote:
That guy clearly should read /usr/share/doc/tzdata-2011n/Theory which explains why cities are chosen instead of region names and when new timezones need to be added (as has Asia/Hebron been recently added). Asia/Jerusalem is different from Asia/Hebron or Asia/Gaza in when DST is or is not observed, either this year or at least in some years since 1970. The timezone database uses Hebron instead of Ramallah because Hebron is bigger, similarly how most of China uses Asia/Shanghai instead of Asia/Beijing.
Now there is news! Hebron is bigger than Ramallah? Not really.
Of course it is. Read e.g. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/West_Bank Hebron has population over 160000, Ramallah not even 30000.
Jakub
Well you are right. As someone who has spent a lot of time in the area I was surprised. But you live and learn. Thanks for straightening me out.
David <dgboles <at> gmail.com> writes:
On 11/23/2011 4:57 AM, JB wrote:
After RH and Fedora statistics, some more results:
http://www.dedoimedo.com/computers/fedora-16.html
The purpose of a distro project is to deliver a product (not to maintain a test system OS), with implied quality, and for a user.
It is time to blink.
JB
He returns! The Troll is back.
Who ? Me ?
You are a troll. You have already managed to offend one of our Fedora users: http://lists.fedoraproject.org/pipermail/users/2011-November/408092.html Now you look for another victim ...
JB
Jakub Jelinek <jakub <at> redhat.com> writes:
... Please read the Theory file, of course the regions in the US that do not observe DST or haven't in some time range since 1970 have also separate time zone names named after biggest cities in those regions. See e.g. America/North_Dakota/New_Salem, America/Phoenix, America/Boise, America/Indiana/Indianapolis, America/Indiana/Marengo, America/Indiana/Vincennes, America/Indiana/Tell_City, America/Indiana/Petersburg and several others. ...
Well, all I can say is we live in interesting times :-) Liberum veto ! JB
Mikkel L. Ellertson <mellertson <at> gmail.com> writes:
On 11/23/2011 03:57 AM, JB wrote:
The purpose of a distro project is to deliver a product (not to maintain a test system OS), with implied quality, and for a user.
It is time to blink.
JB
And here I though different distributions were targeted to different users, and not all the same. I did not know that Fedora was even considered a product. I thought it was a test bed for new ideas and software. ...
It is more serious than just "a test bed" :-)
http://fedoraproject.org/en/features/ ... "What is Fedora, exactly?
Fedora is a Linux-based operating system, a suite of software that makes your computer run. You can use the Fedora operating system to replace or to run alongside of other operating systems such as Microsoft Windows™ or Mac OS X™."
Are M$ Windows or Mac OS X test beds too ?
JB
On 11/23/2011 09:50 AM, JB wrote:
Mikkel L. Ellertson<mellertson<at> gmail.com> writes:
On 11/23/2011 03:57 AM, JB wrote:
The purpose of a distro project is to deliver a product (not to maintain a test system OS), with implied quality, and for a user.
It is time to blink.
JB
And here I though different distributions were targeted to different users, and not all the same. I did not know that Fedora was even considered a product. I thought it was a test bed for new ideas and software. ...
It is more serious than just "a test bed" :-)
http://fedoraproject.org/en/features/ ... "What is Fedora, exactly?
Fedora is a Linux-based operating system, a suite of software that makes your computer run. You can use the Fedora operating system to replace or to run alongside of other operating systems such as Microsoft Windowsâ„¢ or Mac OS Xâ„¢."
Are M$ Windows or Mac OS X test beds too ?
JB
I do not know about Mac OS X, but Windows definitely not a finished product. Just look at what you have to go through if you want to run as a normal user, instead of an administrator.
I also do not see anything that says Fedora is a product. Maybe you could quote that part? While Fedora can be run as a replacement for Windows, (I do.) it is probably not the best choice for someone that wants their computer to "just work". If nothing else, the release cycle is too short for a production machine. If you only install every other release, you are still upgrading the system every year, or loosing things like bug fixes and updates. That sure sounds like a test bed to me. And I like it that way. I have been using computers as toys for the last 30 years.
Mikkel
On Wed, Nov 23, 2011 at 10:39 PM, Mikkel L. Ellertson mellertson@gmail.comwrote:
On 11/23/2011 03:57 AM, JB wrote:
The purpose of a distro project is to deliver a product (not to maintain
a test
system OS), with implied quality, and for a user.
It is time to blink.
JB
And here I though different distributions were targeted to different users, and not all the same. I did not know that Fedora was even considered a product. I thought it was a test bed for new ideas and software.
Now, I would consider RedHat Linux a product. Ubuntu could also be considered a product. To a lesser extent CentOS, and other distributions based on RH Linux are products.
Just my thoughts on the subject... Mikkel --
Do not meddle in the affairs of dragons, for thou art crunchy and taste good with Ketchup! -- users mailing list users@lists.fedoraproject.org To unsubscribe or change subscription options: https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/users Guidelines: http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Mailing_list_guidelines
Um, I thought Red Hat was releasing a tested and supported system...and Fedora was just a test bed for the latest software and was only for those willing/desiring to take the chance/risk...and deal with bleeding edge software? (...should there be more emphasis on bleeding?) I think no one has room to complain (well, for the most part) of this paradigm/... As for myself...yes I might have some worries with regards to basic file system changes (ext3/ext4/btrfs.../others?) and hope for no catastrophic results from using bleeding edge software. But I have no worries about the rest and so far no insurmountable difficulties...and I have made my choice a very long time ago (I did start with RedHat 4.0 I think)...and I support Fedora (at least as a KDE user...)....
Fennix
PS: I am not interested in creating any flame wars, accusations of troll baiting...I just want a system that I can use,,,and Fadora ( has mostly) done this for me. I have never be a Gnome user, feels too locked down...difficult...excepting (for a brief period of time) when KDE 4.0 was released I have just been a KDE user with the Fedora base....then I tried Gnome, gave up and tried several other desktop managers for several months and then reverted to KDE once new versions were released.
Dear all,
Just another thought...I,myself,do not have any political axes to grind. Here I do see some (to my thinking) excessive sensitivities to "newbies" asking (what seems to be reasonable questions...) even if not in the comonally accepted appropriate way/format...I would hope that here, facing bleeding edge software, that some of the responses would be more supportive and less aggressive about format/way for those asking for support in what might be an unfamiliar environment for some newbies... How can we win more converts to Fedora if some are
On Wednesday 23 November 2011 09:57:35 JB wrote:
After RH and Fedora statistics, some more results:
Oh, come on JB, do you really think quoting that guy makes any sense?
If you ever bothered to look around his blog entries, you would easily find that he is just a know-all-genius-science-wannabe who thinks that he is smarter than everyone else and with an ego of size in inverse proportion to his capability of self-criticism, with a quite large proportionality constant...
The points he made about Gnome3 can be even considered valid to some degree, but information coming from a lousy source is going to fall on deaf ears, even if it is correct. That particular review of F16 might appear credible on face value, but dedoimedo's other blog entries are so full of BS that I wouldn't believe a single word about Fedora from that article.
If you ever want to have some credibility on this list, please don't quote such sources *ever* *ever* again. Otherwise you will be rightfully labelled as a troll.
Just a friendly advice. ;-)
Best, :-) Marko
On 11/23/2011 03:08 AM, Ian Malone wrote:
I think F16 has actually improved on F15 in terms of responsiveness and what works in it.
I can't speak for F15, but F16 on my laptop takes considerably longer to boot or log in than F14 did. And, as I reported last night, Compiz doesn't work. I've reported it to Bugzilla. (https://bugzilla.redhat.com/show_bug.cgi?id=756209 if you're interested) There are a large number of similar, open bugs on F14 and 15, but I seem to be the first to report it on 16. How nice.
On Wed, Nov 23, 2011 at 11:31 AM, Joe Zeff joe@zeff.us wrote:
I can't speak for F15, but F16 on my laptop takes considerably longer to boot or log in than F14 did.
Try running "systemd-analyze blame". It'll show you which services are taking the longest to start so you can figure out what fat you might be able to trim.
(On my system, foolishness like the script to set up read-only root that I don't use and some leftovers from a LiveCD install were eating up gobs of boot time unnecessarily.)
-T.C.
Marko Vojinovic <vvmarko <at> gmail.com> writes:
On Wednesday 23 November 2011 09:57:35 JB wrote:
After RH and Fedora statistics, some more results:
Oh, come on JB, do you really think quoting that guy makes any sense? ...
That's not fair to him. He has a pretty neat site, and a long history of Linux distros reviews, which are very standard (from a user point of view), that is, the same tests are uniformly applied to all of them. If any of those tests fail, it is justifiable for him to say that a distro does not pass a smell test.
Yes, he has some preferences for how a desktop machine should look and work, but that's his right. After all he can not be PC and judge a product. His reviews are not "in the clouds", just about right, for an average user.
I actually like to take a look at his site from time to time. By comparison to many other hacks and their empty reviews he stands pretty tall.
And with regard to this particular review, I have to say I agree with what he said about F16. He understands what RH and Fedora products are (he made a very positive CentOS 6 review recently, so he is not biased), but he is disappointed by some of the junk being served. I am not surprised at all. He did not mention any kernel dump right off the bat, but many users reported it, myself included. That was disappointing for me in particular because I tested F16 RC2-6 on two machines and could not understand how it got in there in the last minute ...
Take a look around and check his historical reviews - balanced and not bad :-)
JB
On 11/23/2011 10:38 AM, T.C. Hollingsworth wrote:
Try running "systemd-analyze blame". It'll show you which services are taking the longest to start so you can figure out what fat you might be able to trim.
Right now, I'm getting ready to help run a convention over the holiday weekend. I'll try to remember to do that during my Copious Spare Time.
On 11/23/2011 10:23 AM, JB wrote:
David <dgboles <at> gmail.com> writes:
On 11/23/2011 4:57 AM, JB wrote:
He returns! The Troll is back.
Who ? Me ?
Yeah. You. I see you on various lists thorough out The Internet. And you do the same Trolling thing there as here.
You are a troll. You have already managed to offend one of our Fedora users: http://lists.fedoraproject.org/pipermail/users/2011-November/408092.html Now you look for another victim ...
I offended him? Really? I offered him a simple solution to his problem and he insulted me. And I left the thread with a pleasant goodbye.
Same here for you. Have a great evening. And enjoy your Trolling.
On 11/23/2011 12:34 PM, Fennix wrote:
Dear all,
Just another thought...I,myself,do not have any political axes to grind. Here I do see some (to my thinking) excessive sensitivities to "newbies" asking (what seems to be reasonable questions...) even if not in the comonally accepted appropriate way/format...I would hope that here, facing bleeding edge software, that some of the responses would be more supportive and less aggressive about format/way for those asking for support in what might be an unfamiliar environment for some newbies... How can we win more converts to Fedora if some are
I agree with the 'newbies questions' thought.
My "political axes to grind" are with those like the user that started this thread who calls himself JB. It was a waste of bandwidth. This is supposed to be a *help* list for those that have a problem or a question and not a *chat* list for those with too much free time on their hands.
He does this all over The Internet BTW.
David <dgboles <at> gmail.com> writes:
...
Who ? Me ?
Yeah. You. I see you on various lists thorough out The Internet. And you do the same Trolling thing there as here.
You must have confused me with some body else, or some impersonator :-) I do not participate in any other Internet discussions except Fedora lists ...
... I offended him? Really? I offered him a simple solution to his problem and he insulted me. And I left the thread with a pleasant goodbye.
Same here for you. Have a great evening. And enjoy your Trolling.
Take it easy fella ... :-) JB
David <dgboles <at> gmail.com> writes:
... My "political axes to grind" are with those like the user that started this thread who calls himself JB. It was a waste of bandwidth. This is supposed to be a *help* list for those that have a problem or a question and not a *chat* list for those with too much free time on their hands.
I am a user of Fedora, not a random guy who found himself on this list ... I presented stats (a sample of some Internet space) saying that for the last 2 years Fedora lost almost half of web sites (btw, RH lost approx the same). This is nothing to smile about ...
And today I look at a review of F16 with GNOME 3, by a guy who is repected by me. And behold, he basically threw his arms into the air.
Do you see any coincidence ? What else do you want to read on this list ? Fiction ? Science fiction ?
He does this all over The Internet BTW.
You are spreading a lie here ... that's worse than trolling :-) JB
On 11/23/2011 2:19 PM, JB wrote:
David <dgboles <at> gmail.com> writes:
...
Who ? Me ?
Yeah. You. I see you on various lists thorough out The Internet. And you do the same Trolling thing there as here.
You must have confused me with some body else, or some impersonator :-) I do not participate in any other Internet discussions except Fedora lists ...
... I offended him? Really? I offered him a simple solution to his problem and he insulted me. And I left the thread with a pleasant goodbye.
Same here for you. Have a great evening. And enjoy your Trolling.
Take it easy fella ... :-) JB
Really? Then there is someone using your sig ( JB ) then. Next time I see one I will take the time to look at the email address. Interested in knowing who that might be? I would request your permission, just once to 'forward' it to you as a personnel email. One time. Your choice.
For the moment... peace? I am sorry if I took you for someone else.
On 11/23/2011 11:36 AM, JB wrote:
And today I look at a review of F16 with GNOME 3, by a guy who is repected by me. And behold, he basically threw his arms into the air.
Descriptions by people like him of what Gnome 3 was going to be are why I don't use Gnome any more. It's clearly gone down a path I don't want to follow. When my sister upgraded Ubuntu, she got the Unity DE, which is similar. She's learning to use it and hasn't made up her mind as yet if she likes it or not. I've had to use it while helping her, and I'm glad, glad, I tell you, *GLAD!* (ahem!) that I don't have to use it on any of my computers. This, of course, is simply my personal opinion, but if I hadn't been able to read reviews like that before upgrading, I would have hated what I ended up with, spent weeks, if not months fighting it before moving on and ended up, quite possibly, hating Fedora itself for what it had put me through. As it is, I was forewarned and able to migrate to a different DE that works the way I want it to, and, in fact, has features I hadn't seen in years and didn't realize how much I missed.
On Wed, 23 Nov 2011 12:01:44 -0800 Joe Zeff wrote:
It's clearly gone down a path I don't want to follow.
But it is a disease afflicting everyone apparently.
While it is true that the tradition desktop interface is a dreadful design for phones and tablets, no one seems to realize that a good tablet interface is equally dreadful on desktop hardware.
Windows 8, Ubuntu Unity, Gnome 3, they are all going down the same path (though for my money ubuntu unity is the most dreadful of them).
On 11/23/2011 07:38 PM, T.C. Hollingsworth wrote:
Try running "systemd-analyze blame". It'll show you which services are taking the longest to start so you can figure out what fat you might be able to trim.
Thanks for pointing out the systemd-analyze command.
I ran systemd-analyze on three recent installs of F16.
Laptop: Startup finished in 1028ms (kernel) + 2518ms (initramfs) + 29845ms (userspace) = 33393ms Worst offender: 2134ms ntpdate.service
Desktop: Startup finished in 2016ms (kernel) + 3615ms (initramfs) + 31713ms (userspace) = 37344ms Worst offender: 9455ms NetworkManager.service
Server: Startup finished in 2229ms (kernel) + 3941ms (initramfs) + 50937ms (userspace) = 57108ms Worst offender: 14371ms ntpdate.service
As I run NTP on all these, I have now disabled ntpdate on all.
My gut-feeling after these install has been no improvement of start-up speed. I.e. I have not said to myself "wow, how fast it started". So the next question will obviously be, how can I use the data gathered with "systemd-analyze blame" to improve start-up speed? Besides finding started daemons that I have no need for, like removing ntpdate, that I just realized was enabled on my systems, even when using NTP?
Lars
Tom Horsley <horsley1953 <at> gmail.com> writes:
... Windows 8, Ubuntu Unity, Gnome 3, they are all going down the same path (though for my money ubuntu unity is the most dreadful of them).
Unfortunately many of the industry "prophets" follow the same path, as if they lacked critical thinking. All of us are aware of many mishaps that happened in the IT, some of them crashed companies, their senior execs, and so called personalities. They wanted to introduce something almost by force, as if they wanted to create different species from their customers/users. And they failed miserably.
There is an opinion piece on Ubuntu and Unity, but could be on GNOME as well. http://www.h-online.com/open/features/HealthCheck-Ubuntu-The-search-for-unit...
JB
On 11/24/2011 07:34 AM, Craig White wrote:
On Wed, 2011-11-23 at 15:50 +0000, JB wrote:
Are M$ Windows or Mac OS X test beds too ?
sure - they ship with thousands of known bugs
Too easy... :-)
On 11/23/2011 2:44 PM, JB wrote:
David <dgboles <at> gmail.com> writes:
... For the moment... peace? I am sorry if I took you for someone else.
Please forward my impersonator's email then. Peace as well :-) JB
Will be done.
once again. My sincere apologizes if I took you for someone else. There is an Internet meme for that but I don;t currently have time to look.
Else ? Sorry once agian.
On Wed, 2011-11-23 at 18:44 +0000, JB wrote:
Marko Vojinovic <vvmarko <at> gmail.com> writes:
On Wednesday 23 November 2011 09:57:35 JB wrote:
Oh, come on JB, do you really think quoting that guy makes any sense?
That's not fair to him. He has a pretty neat site, and a long history of Linux distros reviews, which are very standard (from a user point of view),
a) All the reviews are loaded with tons of emotional influence: "trying to use Fedora 16 verne". b) the review is a witch hunting of bugs: "the bad integration continues here. Notice the icon background is a different shade of gray than the window". c) Is not objective: "I touched the subject of politics in my latest Mandriva review". d) Is not concrete. That's not a review of a distro features.
A very emotional and subjective opinion of some applications within a narrow point of view of the linux capabilities.
Empty glasses are louder :)
Cheers.
On Wed, Nov 23, 2011 at 12:01:44PM -0800, Joe Zeff wrote:
Descriptions by people like him of what Gnome 3 was going to be are why I don't use Gnome any more. It's clearly gone down a path I don't want .....
Joe
With a little work Gnome 3.2 can be adapted to a desktop that you should have no trouble working with (and liking (maybe)).
Stop with the criticism and take a look at Linux Mint 12 RC. This clearly is Gnome 3.2 but with all the 'missing features' of Gnome 2 you and others are complaining about.
The Mint people clearly took the trouble to make Gnome 3 more Gnome 2 like to 'ease the transition'.
Fedora didn't but it can still come and I suspect you could even do it yourself if you really cared.
Alexander
On 11/24/2011 10:28 AM, Alexander Volovics wrote:
Stop with the criticism and take a look at Linux Mint 12 RC. This clearly is Gnome 3.2 but with all the 'missing features' of Gnome 2 you and others are complaining about.
Gnome 3:s shell *should* be criticized, as it severely affects many users work flow. There is one good thing with Gnome 3 though, the fall-back mode.
I am using Gnome 3 in fallback mode, without compiz but with metacity, and it can be tweaked to work more or less as Gnome 2.
Log in to Gnome 3:s shell, left-click on your name in the upper right corner, chose "System Settings", then "System Info", and last "Graphics", turn "Forced Fallback Mode" to on, log out and log in again. This will give you Gnome 3 fall-back mode with metacity, and a Gnome 2 feel (just remember to press alt when trying to add things to the panels with right-click).
Lars
On Thu, Nov 24, 2011 at 1:08 AM, Ed Greshko Ed.Greshko@greshko.com wrote:
On 11/24/2011 07:34 AM, Craig White wrote:
On Wed, 2011-11-23 at 15:50 +0000, JB wrote:
Are M$ Windows or Mac OS X test beds too ?
sure - they ship with thousands of known bugs
Too easy... :-)
that deserves a place on bash.org ;)
maciek
On 11/24/2011 01:28 AM, Alexander Volovics wrote:
With a little work Gnome 3.2 can be adapted to a desktop that you should have no trouble working with (and liking (maybe)).
So? XFCE does exactly what I want, right out of the box. When it comes to forcing Gnome 3.x to do what I want, you clearly have me confused with somebody who gives a shit.
On 11/24/2011 01:28 AM, Alexander Volovics wrote:
Stop with the criticism and take a look at Linux Mint 12 RC. This clearly is Gnome 3.2 but with all the 'missing features' of Gnome 2 you and others are complaining about.
So what you're saying is, don't tell people what you don't like about Gnome 3, just hunt around for a distro that tweaks it for you. No, thank you, given a choice between sticking with Gnome or Fedora, I'll take Fedora and change my DE. For that matter, if there's so much you need to tweak to get Gnome working the way you want again, why not look at a different DE? Gnome isn't the be-all and end-all of Linux, you know.
On Thu, 2011-11-24 at 08:40 -0800, Joe Zeff wrote:
On 11/24/2011 01:28 AM, Alexander Volovics wrote:
With a little work Gnome 3.2 can be adapted to a desktop that you should have no trouble working with (and liking (maybe)).
So? XFCE does exactly what I want, right out of the box. When it comes to forcing Gnome 3.x to do what I want, you clearly have me confused with somebody who gives a shit.
Since, you are a XFCE fan maybe you can answer my question that I have asked before.
Why does XFCE insist you mount a Audio CD before you play it since we all know that Audio CDs are not mounted in the usual meaning of the term?
On 11/24/2011 09:13 AM, Aaron Konstam wrote:
Why does XFCE insist you mount a Audio CD before you play it since we all know that Audio CDs are not mounted in the usual meaning of the term?
Actually, it doesn't, although it may have in the past. However, if you want to have the software eject it, you do need to "mount" it first.
On 11/23/2011 03:57 AM, JB wrote:
After RH and Fedora statistics, some more results:
http://www.dedoimedo.com/computers/fedora-16.html
The purpose of a distro project is to deliver a product (not to maintain a test system OS), with implied quality, and for a user.
It is time to blink.
JB
If you want a test OS -- because it's fun, because it's leading edge, because it gives you something to complain about -- use Fedora. If you want peace and long life, use CentOS. Both are valid products, for different purposes.
Now get back under your bridge, troll.
On Thu, Nov 24, 2011 at 7:02 PM, Steven Stern subscribed-lists@sterndata.com wrote:
On 11/23/2011 03:57 AM, JB wrote:
After RH and Fedora statistics, some more results:
http://www.dedoimedo.com/computers/fedora-16.html
The purpose of a distro project is to deliver a product (not to maintain a test system OS), with implied quality, and for a user.
It is time to blink.
JB
If you want a test OS -- because it's fun, because it's leading edge, because it gives you something to complain about -- use Fedora. If you want peace and long life, use CentOS. Both are valid products, for different purposes.
Now get back under your bridge, troll.
Even though most of the review does look like random bashing, there are some points which I can take as valid. Listing (in order of appearance): * notification panel (was systray) was really annoying during install, when instead of clicking next, the panel would pop up and cover the 'Next' button * bad integration a.k.a. ugly icons - annoying, and just plain ... ugly * online accounts - never got it to work properly for me, in fact I stopped caring to report any bugs
Although one may argue the form and the phrasing the criticism was delivered, but it doesn't make it any less valid. However, at times the community seems to be content with the status quo and instead of fixing the obvious problems, it's just easier to name people 'trolls' (note, I'm making a general point here, the guy may be a troll after all).
maciek
Maciek Borzecki <maciek.borzecki <at> gmail.com> writes:
...
Dear trolls (yes, I address it to you as well),
get out from under your bridge (happy turkey, btw) and read this:
http://distrowatch.com/weekly.php?issue=20111121&mode=67 ... 7 • gnome and unity (by Thomas on 2011-11-21 11:22:56 GMT from Germany) ... 39 • DE's and Linux (by rob on 2011-11-21 19:55:46 GMT from United States) ... 45 • Heading back to WIndows - sadly (by Michael on 2011-11-21 21:52:33 GMT from Germany) ... 52 • Re: #46, Caitlyn (by Michael on 2011-11-21 22:41:32 GMT from Germany) ... 57 • Red Hat (by Jesse on 2011-11-22 00:52:04 GMT from Canada) ...
Now, let me comment on this once again. RH and RH-controlled Fedora constitute a flawed products offering model.
RHEL/CentOS/SL are good for "install-and-forget" operation; they are not good for "stay-current-and-reasonably-stable" operation mainly due to too old kernel, but also for some users due to too old apps. Fedora is a test system distro, by everybody's admission; this is also amplified by misguided handling of the *default* choice of DE, which is that RH-influenced disaster called GNOME 3.
The above mentioned stats (see other thread) reflect that; that they show almost half of Fedora sites migrated to other distros/OSs is not so surprsising considering its "test system OS" state, but that a similar size flight affected RH products confirms exactly what I say about the flawed products offering model.
Clearly, there is a need for a RH-base distro product that would fill in the void with a more current kernel AND reasonably stable base and user apps. The current combo of RH products and Fedora does not fit into reality of users expectations. As you see, apparently there is also an issue of quality of service. The so called "smart money" has already left, the other half of the herd is running towards the cliff, making themselves irrelevant as a product (Fedora).
That's why I said it here and in the other (stats) thread it is time to blink and reconstitute RH-controlled Fedora project for the new goal. Yes, it is time to catch up with reality.
JB
On Thu, 24 Nov 2011 10:00:17 -0800, JZ (Joe) wrote:
On 11/24/2011 09:13 AM, Aaron Konstam wrote:
Why does XFCE insist you mount a Audio CD before you play it since we all know that Audio CDs are not mounted in the usual meaning of the term?
Actually, it doesn't, although it may have in the past. However, if you want to have the software eject it, you do need to "mount" it first.
Certainly not. Or perhaps specific to whatever software you refer to. Commands like /usr/bin/eject ("man eject") can open the tray also for unmounted media.
Am Donnerstag, den 24.11.2011, 11:13 -0600 schrieb Aaron Konstam:
Why does XFCE insist you mount a Audio CD before you play it since we all know that Audio CDs are not mounted in the usual meaning of the term?
It doesn't, exo-mount even refuses to mount it. What player are you referring to?
Regards, Christoph
On Thu, 2011-11-24 at 22:25 +0000, JB wrote:
The above mentioned stats (see other thread) reflect that; that they show almost half of Fedora sites migrated to other distros/OSs is not so surprsising considering its "test system OS" state, but that a similar size flight affected RH products confirms exactly what I say about the flawed products offering model.
---- people come, people go, people come back too. Such is the life of a world with free choices. ----
Clearly, there is a need for a RH-base distro product that would fill in the void with a more current kernel AND reasonably stable base and user apps. The current combo of RH products and Fedora does not fit into reality of users expectations.
---- That you could extrapolate your and a handful of others opinions into something great is the act of a fool / a troll as some have already labeled. ----
As you see, apparently there is also an issue of quality of service. The so called "smart money" has already left, the other half of the herd is running towards the cliff, making themselves irrelevant as a product (Fedora).
---- bye - don't let the door hit you on the way out. ----
That's why I said it here and in the other (stats) thread it is time to blink and reconstitute RH-controlled Fedora project for the new goal. Yes, it is time to catch up with reality.
---- How can you be so arrogant to presume that you can cause a fundamental shift in Fedora without even bothering to be directly involved with the project itself? Believe it or not, there actually is a governing board and a structure of developers who actually invest their time and energy into making Fedora whatever Fedora is and yours is just a peanut gallery lament.
You are largely irrelevant, somewhat absurd and probably best ignored - sorry, I tried.
Craig
On 11/24/2011 03:03 PM, Michael Schwendt wrote:
Certainly not. Or perhaps specific to whatever software you refer to. Commands like /usr/bin/eject ("man eject") can open the tray also for unmounted media.
XFCE doesn't offer Eject as an option in the context menu for an audio CD unless it's "mounted."
Craig White <craigwhite <at> azapple.com> writes:
On Thu, 2011-11-24 at 22:25 +0000, JB wrote:
The above mentioned stats (see other thread) reflect that; that they show almost half of Fedora sites migrated to other distros/OSs is not so surprsising considering its "test system OS" state, but that a similar size flight affected RH products confirms exactly what I say about the flawed products offering model.
people come, people go, people come back too. Such is the life of a world with free choices.
So, this is your answer to reality biting ? If this is your reaction to a customers/users flight of this magnitude then I can only say you are a part of a "dead poet" society.
...
That's why I said it here and in the other (stats) thread it is time to blink and reconstitute RH-controlled Fedora project for the new goal. Yes, it is time to catch up with reality.
How can you be so arrogant to presume that you can cause a fundamental shift in Fedora without even bothering to be directly involved with the project itself? Believe it or not, there actually is a governing board and a structure of developers who actually invest their time and energy into making Fedora whatever Fedora is and yours is just a peanut gallery lament.
Well, the reality is giving strong signals. Making the governing bodies and open/public project community aware of a negative trend is not an act of arrogance. What the hell are you talking about ?
You are largely irrelevant, somewhat absurd and probably best ignored - sorry, I tried. ...
But you are not sure ...
...
JB
On Thu, 2011-11-24 at 22:25 +0000, JB wrote:
Now, let me comment on this once again. RH and RH-controlled Fedora constitute [...] it is time to blink and reconstitute RH-controlled Fedora project for the new goal.
Allow me to correct this misconception right now: Red Hat does not control Fedora. Red Hat _sponsors_ the Fedora Project (with funding, technical infrastructure, etc.); but the _control_ of the project as a whole ultimately lies with the community of its developers and supporters.
Moreso than the distribution it produces, Fedora is a Community.
Fedora is a test system distro, by everybody's admission; this is also amplified by misguided handling of the *default* choice of DE, which is that RH-influenced disaster called GNOME 3.
Fedora is not a test system as you so claim. Sure, Red Hat bases its Enterprise Linux product on Fedora releases every so often; but Fedora is more than just a test for RHEL - it is a high-quality distribution in its own right.
On Fri, 2011-11-25 at 06:34 +0000, JB wrote:
You are largely irrelevant, somewhat absurd and probably best ignored - sorry, I tried. ...
But you are not sure ...
---- did I seem to equivocate somewhere? I don't think so.
Now that you've already said that the smart money has already left, does that mean you are simply staying here out of stupidity and intent to irritate everyone or can we expect that we have now seen the last of your worthless messaging here?
Craig
Craig White <craigwhite <at> azapple.com> writes:
On Fri, 2011-11-25 at 06:34 +0000, JB wrote:
You are largely irrelevant, somewhat absurd and probably best ignored - sorry, I tried. ...
But you are not sure ...
did I seem to equivocate somewhere? I don't think so. ...
Yes, you did.
You contradict yourself, sign of uncertainty about the object of your wrath: "... somewhat absurd ..." " ... probably best ignored ..."
You are a mighty troll. JB
On Fri, 2011-11-25 at 00:50 +0100, Christoph Wickert wrote:
Am Donnerstag, den 24.11.2011, 11:13 -0600 schrieb Aaron Konstam:
Why does XFCE insist you mount a Audio CD before you play it since we all know that Audio CDs are not mounted in the usual meaning of the term?
It doesn't, exo-mount even refuses to mount it. What player are you referring to?
Regards, Christoph
It turned out the fact that you need to mount and audio CD before you play it turned out too be wrong. My experiment in this was faulty.
Can we at least cut out the ad-homs? They're useless as a rhetorical device, actual worse than useless, they're counter-productive. Calling people names will only steel themselves against your position, and other people will start to lose respect for your arguments.
And, your arguments are valid. Ever since I switched back to Fedora from Ubuntu, I hate the fact that I have to tweak my DE to hell and back before I can use it efficiently after every upgrade, I have to install a decent font, I have to go into gconf-editor to configure focus-follows-mouse, and any number of annoying manual steps just to get a desktop that rivals what Ubuntu gives me out of the box.
But the ad-hominems and bad rhetoric take away from your argument, not add to it.
Matt
Craig White <craigwhite <at> azapple.com> writes:
On Fri, 2011-11-25 at 06:34 +0000, JB wrote:
You are largely irrelevant, somewhat absurd and probably best
ignored -
sorry, I tried. ...
But you are not sure ...
did I seem to equivocate somewhere? I don't think so. ...
Yes, you did.
You contradict yourself, sign of uncertainty about the object of your wrath: "... somewhat absurd ..." " ... probably best ignored ..."
You are a mighty troll. JB
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On Fri, 2011-11-25 at 11:09 -0500, Matt Rose wrote:
Ever since I switched back to Fedora from Ubuntu, I hate the fact that I have to tweak my DE to hell and back before I can use it efficiently after every upgrade, I have to install a decent font, I have to go into gconf-editor to configure focus-follows-mouse, and any number of annoying manual steps just to get a desktop that rivals what Ubuntu gives me out of the box.
Once again we see issues with Gnome 3 being laid at Fedora's door. I haven't used Gnome since the days of KDE 2 (yes 2, not even 3), so all this is somewhat of a sideshow as far as I'm concerned. No doubt it's a deep and important issue for Gnome users, but it's *not* a problem with Fedora as such.
poc
On Fri, 2011-11-25 at 11:09 -0500, Matt Rose wrote:
Ever since I switched back to Fedora from Ubuntu, I hate the fact that I have to tweak my DE to hell and back before I can use it efficiently after every upgrade, I have to install a decent font, I have to go into gconf-editor to configure focus-follows-mouse, and any number of annoying manual steps just to get a desktop that rivals what Ubuntu gives me out of the box.
Once again we see issues with Gnome 3 being laid at Fedora's door. I haven't used Gnome since the days of KDE 2 (yes 2, not even 3), so all this is somewhat of a sideshow as far as I'm concerned. No doubt it's a deep and important issue for Gnome users, but it's *not* a problem with Fedora as such.
Couple of thoughts.
The customizations I do, very little of it has to do with Gnome3 specifically. In fact, only the focus follows mouse issue. Most of it has to do with the terrible, terrible font rendering, the lack of support for most modern media formats, and other annoyances. I've had to do these tweaks for far longer than Gnome3 was around.
In fact, one of the reasons I came back to Fedora was for gnome3, as I did use Ubuntu up until 10.10, but I didn't want to move to Unity. If you guys think Gnome3 is bad...
As well, KDE's track record on this is not exactly stellar. KDE4 was basically unusable up until 4.3 or so. Gnome3 is going through some growing pains right now, but that's to be expected.
Fact is, no matter what DE you use, the out of the box experience on Fedora is terrible. Yes, you can fiddle with this or that config file, and install this or that 3rd party package to fix it, but out of the box, Fedora is pretty much unusable as a desktop environment for any purpose.
By trade, I'm a linux Systems Engineer, and I work on my own customized Linux distro based on CentOS (hence my interest in Fedora), and I find this stuff hard, and a flat-out pain in the ass, especially when competition like Ubuntu is out there, and demonstrates plainly that the out-of-box experience can be pleasant.
Fedora is not going to win any converts this way.
Matt
poc
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On 25 November 2011 22:30, Matt Rose mattrose@folkwolf.net wrote:
The customizations I do, very little of it has to do with Gnome3 specifically. In fact, only the focus follows mouse issue. Most of it has to do with the terrible, terrible font rendering, the lack of support for most modern media formats, and other annoyances. I've had to do these tweaks for far longer than Gnome3 was around.
<--RANT SNIPPED-->
Matt
There is many ready solutions for this purposes. They are not included in fedora because of license restrictions. For example, in the review mentioned in the first post fedorautils package is mentioned. It can handle a lot of routine work one ordinary does in order to get "properly working system". However in my opinion most of this things are meaningless for work. Candy eyes are for losers.
On 25 November 2011 22:30, Matt Rose mattrose@folkwolf.net wrote:
The customizations I do, very little of it has to do with Gnome3 specifically. Â In fact, only the focus follows mouse issue. Â Most of it has to do with the terrible, terrible font rendering, the lack of support for most modern media formats, and other annoyances. Â I've had to do these tweaks for far longer than Gnome3 was around.
<--RANT SNIPPED-->
Matt
There is many ready solutions for this purposes. They are not included in fedora because of license restrictions. For example, in the review mentioned in the first post fedorautils package is mentioned. It can handle a lot of routine work one ordinary does in order to get "properly working system". However in my opinion most of this things are meaningless for work. Candy eyes are for losers.
When you spend as much time in front of a computer trying to get actual work done, eye candy, like decent readable fonts that don't make you crosseyed, or the ability to watch screencasts or listen to podcasts are essential. you can dismiss it all you want, but if I couldn't solve these problems, I wouldn't use Fedora, I'd be forced into using a Mac. I guess I'm a loser.
Ah, and the license restriction canard. I was actually expecting this one. If Fedora can't distribute this software because of license restrictions, how come RPMFusion can, and Ubuntu can, and SuSE can, and, and, and.
The sad truth is that these are political problems that other distros have solved, but Fedora hasn't bothered to yet.
Matt
-- Hiisi. Registered Linux User #487982. Be counted at: http://counter.li.org/ -- Spandex is a privilege, not a right.
I also wear spandex, even though I weigh well over 100kg.
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On Fri, 2011-11-25 at 13:30 -0500, Matt Rose wrote:
As well, KDE's track record on this is not exactly stellar. KDE4 was basically unusable up until 4.3 or so.
I'd dispute that. I've used KDE 4 since it came out and never had major problems with it (other than completely missing the point of the whole Activities stuff, easily solved by ignoring it). The chest-beating about the supposed disaster that was KDE 4 always seemed to me somewhat over the top, but YMMV.
poc
On Fri, 2011-11-25 at 14:24 -0500, Matt Rose wrote:
Ah, and the license restriction canard. I was actually expecting this one. If Fedora can't distribute this software because of license restrictions, how come RPMFusion can, and Ubuntu can, and SuSE can, and, and, and.
Different goals, and others not caring about breaking laws, or not being bound by the same laws, not caring about sticking to certain licenses, exposing users to patent encumbrances and so on and so forth, versus a distro which intends to only include free software.
The latter one can be very important to some people (whether that be developers or users). If you ever get threatened with a computer software audit, you'll have nothing to worry about.
Some distros run the risk, by including some things, just hoping that they'll get away with it. Others have done deals with the devil, to be allowed do so. Deals which can come back to bite them, later on.
You're not going to get far arguing that Fedora should do something, if it has a goal that it actually should not. Such removal of things like MP3 playback are not casual, nor mere omissions.
On 25 November 2011 23:24, Matt Rose mattrose@folkwolf.net wrote: <--SNIP-->
Ah, and the license restriction canard. I was actually expecting this one. If Fedora can't distribute this software because of license restrictions, how come RPMFusion can, and Ubuntu can, and SuSE can, and, and, and.
Freedom is one of the core values of the project. I applaud to all contributors who make it possible to use this wonderful piece of software without restrictions. I don't give a heck about politics. As to all this closed crap provided by rpmfusion and some other sources, remember that you're on your own while using them.
The sad truth is that these are political problems that other distros have solved, but Fedora hasn't bothered to yet.
Matt
-- Hiisi. Registered Linux User #487982. Be counted at: http://counter.li.org/ -- Spandex is a privilege, not a right.
I also wear spandex, even though I weigh well over 100kg.
;-)
Tim wrote:
On Fri, 2011-11-25 at 14:24 -0500, Matt Rose wrote:
Ah, and the license restriction canard. I was actually expecting this one. If Fedora can't distribute this software because of license restrictions, how come RPMFusion can, and Ubuntu can, and SuSE can, and, and, and.
Different goals, and others not caring about breaking laws, or not being bound by the same laws, not caring about sticking to certain licenses, exposing users to patent encumbrances and so on and so forth, versus a distro which intends to only include free software.
The latter one can be very important to some people (whether that be developers or users). If you ever get threatened with a computer software audit, you'll have nothing to worry about.
Some distros run the risk, by including some things, just hoping that they'll get away with it. Others have done deals with the devil, to be allowed do so. Deals which can come back to bite them, later on.
You're not going to get far arguing that Fedora should do something, if it has a goal that it actually should not. Such removal of things like MP3 playback are not casual, nor mere omissions.
License restrictions are one thing, but IMO Fedora did mistakes in free SW preference too - e.g. in each version of Fedora for several recent years I had to replace cripled and unmaintained wodim with original cdrtools, because otherwise I won't able burn CD/DVD media.
Franta Hanzlik
On Friday 25 November 2011 15:40:37 Patrick O'Callaghan wrote:
On Fri, 2011-11-25 at 13:30 -0500, Matt Rose wrote:
As well, KDE's track record on this is not exactly stellar. KDE4 was basically unusable up until 4.3 or so.
I'd dispute that. I've used KDE 4 since it came out and never had major problems with it (other than completely missing the point of the whole Activities stuff, easily solved by ignoring it). The chest-beating about the supposed disaster that was KDE 4 always seemed to me somewhat over the top, but YMMV.
In addition to that, the initial KDE4.0 was nowhere near as terrible as Gnome3.0 was and Gnome 3.2 still is. It had a proper shutdown button in the menu, to begin with. And the windows could be minimized. And you could see all active applications listed in the taskbar. And... well, you get the picture... ;-)
Best, :-) Marko
On Fri, 25 Nov 2011 15:58:58 -0600 Frantisek Hanzlik franta@hanzlici.cz wrote:
Tim wrote:
On Fri, 2011-11-25 at 14:24 -0500, Matt Rose wrote:
Ah, and the license restriction canard. I was actually expecting this one. If Fedora can't distribute this software because of license restrictions, how come RPMFusion can, and Ubuntu can, and SuSE can, and, and, and.
Different goals, and others not caring about breaking laws, or not being bound by the same laws, not caring about sticking to certain licenses, exposing users to patent encumbrances and so on and so forth, versus a distro which intends to only include free software.
The latter one can be very important to some people (whether that be developers or users). If you ever get threatened with a computer software audit, you'll have nothing to worry about.
Some distros run the risk, by including some things, just hoping that they'll get away with it. Others have done deals with the devil, to be allowed do so. Deals which can come back to bite them, later on.
You're not going to get far arguing that Fedora should do something, if it has a goal that it actually should not. Such removal of things like MP3 playback are not casual, nor mere omissions.
License restrictions are one thing, but IMO Fedora did mistakes in free SW preference too - e.g. in each version of Fedora for several recent years I had to replace cripled and unmaintained wodim with original cdrtools, because otherwise I won't able burn CD/DVD media.
Interesting. I have never had this problem, though I confess I burn things sparingly nowadays...
Ranjan
On Fri, 2011-11-25 at 22:58 +0100, Frantisek Hanzlik wrote:
License restrictions are one thing, but IMO Fedora did mistakes in free SW preference too - e.g. in each version of Fedora for several recent years I had to replace cripled and unmaintained wodim with original cdrtools, because otherwise I won't able burn CD/DVD media.
---- ah but it was exactly licensing issues that caused the fork of cdrtools into wodim...
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cdrkit
That said, it might have been more productive to file bugs against wodim for things that haven't worked for you.
Craig
On Fri, 2011-11-25 at 23:09 +0000, Marko Vojinovic wrote:
On Friday 25 November 2011 15:40:37 Patrick O'Callaghan wrote:
On Fri, 2011-11-25 at 13:30 -0500, Matt Rose wrote:
As well, KDE's track record on this is not exactly stellar. KDE4 was basically unusable up until 4.3 or so.
I'd dispute that. I've used KDE 4 since it came out and never had major problems with it (other than completely missing the point of the whole Activities stuff, easily solved by ignoring it). The chest-beating about the supposed disaster that was KDE 4 always seemed to me somewhat over the top, but YMMV.
In addition to that, the initial KDE4.0 was nowhere near as terrible as Gnome3.0 was and Gnome 3.2 still is. It had a proper shutdown button in the menu, to begin with. And the windows could be minimized. And you could see all active applications listed in the taskbar. And... well, you get the picture... ;-)
Best, :-) Marko
All (more or less) are possible if you run Gnome3.2 in failsafe mode. Shutdown for example is on the menu under the user name as it should be :-`
--- On Fri, 11/25/11, Craig White craigwhite@azapple.com wrote:
From: Craig White craigwhite@azapple.com Subject: Re: Fedora - time to blink To: users@lists.fedoraproject.org Date: Friday, November 25, 2011, 6:22 PM On Fri, 2011-11-25 at 22:58 +0100, Frantisek Hanzlik wrote:
License restrictions are one thing, but IMO Fedora did
mistakes in
free SW preference too - e.g. in each version of
Fedora for several
recent years I had to replace cripled and unmaintained
wodim with
original cdrtools, because otherwise I won't able burn
CD/DVD media.
ah but it was exactly licensing issues that caused the fork of cdrtools into wodim...
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cdrkit
That said, it might have been more productive to file bugs against wodim for things that haven't worked for you.
Craig
--
http://cdrecord.berlios.de/private/linux-dist.html
Counters those claims as well.
The Debian fork violates the GPL and the Urheberrecht This is a list of violations in the Debian fork. It does not claim to be complete. The Urheberechtsgesetz will be named UrhG below.
The GPL preamble (see also Urheberrecht §14 below) disallows modifications in case they are suitable to affect the original author's reputation. As Debian installs symlinks with the original program names and as many people still believe that the symlinks with the original program names are the original software, Debian does not follow the GPL.
GPL §2a requires to keep track of any author and change date inside all changed files. This is not done in the fork.
GPL §2c requires modified programs to print Copyright messages as intended by the original author. This is not done in the fork wodim.
GPL §3 requires the complete source to be distributed if there is a binary distribution. The Debian fork tarball does not include everything needed to compile the cdrtools fork (complete source) and Debian does not give a written offer to deliver the missing parts.
UrhG §13 requires redistributors to accept the way the author likes to mark his ownership. Debian removed such marks from the source of the fork against the will of the author and did ignore hints on this fact.
In the book »Die GPL kommentiert und erklärt« Till Jäger (the lawyer from Harald Welte) explains on page 63 why removing these ownership marks is also a clear violation of the GPL.
UrhG §14 forbids modifications that may affect personal interests of the author in the work. Debian introduced such modifications as Debian knowingly introduced bugs that prevent use and changed the behavior in a way that makes the command line syntax non-portable and Debian still makes the work available under the original names. -------------------------------------------------------------------
There are several distributions that did keep original cdrtools and have not incorporated the new wodim.
Fedora's packagers response here: https://www.redhat.com/archives/fedora-legal-list/2009-July/msg00000.html
Wodim has been on Fedora for a while, and agreements with scsi calls and device conventions have apparently caused problems between disto maintainers and Joerg the original maintainer of cdrecord/cdrtools.
I do believe that users have a choice, and if one program does not do the job, it is our right to install what works for us.
If you install cdrtools from source and fire up k3b, it picks up the original cdrecord and not its replacement. If you remove the replacement, several programs could be affected like livecd tools and others, so you can keep both and use the one that you need. This should not be a big problem causing users to ***blink***
Regards,
Antonio
On Friday 25 November 2011 20:03:58 Antonio Olivares wrote:
--- On Fri, 11/25/11, Craig White craigwhite@azapple.com wrote:
ah but it was exactly licensing issues that caused the fork of cdrtools into wodim...
http://cdrecord.berlios.de/private/linux-dist.html
Counters those claims as well.
From what I gathered after reading some of the discussions between Jorg
Schilling and everyone else, the legal status of cdrtools is interpretation- dependent. Specifically, CDDL and GPL may be considered to be or to not be compatible, based on one's point of view, interpretation of the wording of GPL in English versus German language, validity of German laws outside Germany etc.
It is not important who's right and who's wrong. The only important thing is that there is no consensus between all parties about the status of cdrtools. And that is what makes cdrtools a no-go package for Fedora, IMHO.
The thing is, the status of cdrtools would be completely clear if Schilling had agreed to dual-licence the offending part of the source code. Of course, as an author of that code, he exercised his right not to do it and to keep the CDDL instead. But that gave the impression to everyone else that he is not a good "team player" (so to speak), so many people/devs/distros essentially decided to boycott him and go down the cdrkit route, since cdrkit does not have the licencing issues that cdrtools does.
That's how I understand the whole affair.
In addition, when the author of cdrtools insists that there are no licence issues, while Red Hat Legal, Debian devs, and basically everyone else insists that there indeed are licence issues, who are you going to believe?
There are several distributions that did keep original cdrtools and have not incorporated the new wodim.
Fedora's packagers response here: https://www.redhat.com/archives/fedora-legal-list/2009-July/msg00000.html
And a great response it is --- clear, to the point, and decisive. :-) Btw, I didn't know Spot was a member of the Legal team. Great work! ;-)
Each distro can choose to do whatever they feel is right. As for Fedora, I understand that it strongly upholds the principles of not bundling any code that might have controversial licencing, which is the case for cdrtools. I support this policy, and that's one of the reasons I use Fedora.
I do believe that users have a choice, and if one program does not do the job, it is our right to install what works for us.
Sure, noone disputes that. However, one should never mix one's own freedoms and choices with the freedoms and choices of Fedora. So I don't think it is fair that people bitch about Fedora not including cdrtools.
All that said, I actually wonder why cdrkit apparently doesn't work for so many people? It has been several years since it was forked, so I would expect that by now it is pretty much equivalent in functionality to cdrtools. [N.B. I rarely use either myself so I didn't actually compare them...]
Best, :-) Marko
Craig White wrote:
On Fri, 2011-11-25 at 22:58 +0100, Frantisek Hanzlik wrote:
License restrictions are one thing, but IMO Fedora did mistakes in free SW preference too - e.g. in each version of Fedora for several recent years I had to replace cripled and unmaintained wodim with original cdrtools, because otherwise I won't able burn CD/DVD media.
ah but it was exactly licensing issues that caused the fork of cdrtools into wodim...
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cdrkit
That said, it might have been more productive to file bugs against wodim for things that haven't worked for you.
Craig
It is far simpler for me build cdrtools package and have fine result in several minutes. And especially about wodim there was/is many bugreports and as I wrote, it was basically unmaintained.
But, I don't only criticise Fedora. When cdrtools is insuitable for Fedora, then probably may be in rpmfusion repos, and I can maintain it there. If so, can anyone give me any directions how do it?
Regards, Franta Hanzlik
Am 26.11.2011 05:03, schrieb Antonio Olivares:
The GPL preamble (see also Urheberrecht §14 below) disallows modifications in case they are suitable to affect the original author's reputation. As Debian installs symlinks with the original program names and as many people still believe that the symlinks with the original program names are the original software, Debian does not follow the GPL.
*lol* so fedora is violating the GPL with postfix and exim? please do not repeat lowbrained schily's trolling this way
[harry@srv-rhsoft:~]$ which sendmail /usr/sbin/sendmail
[harry@srv-rhsoft:~]$ stat /usr/sbin/sendmail Datei: „/usr/sbin/sendmail“ -> „/etc/alternatives/mta“ Größe: 21 Blöcke: 0 EA Block: 4096 symbolische Verknüpfung Gerät: 901h/2305d Inode: 788092 Verknüpfungen: 1 Zugriff: (0777/lrwxrwxrwx) Uid: ( 0/ root) Gid: ( 0/ root) Zugriff : 2011-11-07 16:15:00.452189922 +0100 Modifiziert: 2011-11-07 16:15:00.452189922 +0100 Geändert : 2011-11-07 16:15:00.452189922 +0100 Geburt : -
[harry@srv-rhsoft:~]$ stat /etc/alternatives/mta Datei: „/etc/alternatives/mta“ -> „/usr/sbin/sendmail.postfix“ Größe: 26 Blöcke: 0 EA Block: 4096 symbolische Verknüpfung Gerät: 901h/2305d Inode: 1177356 Verknüpfungen: 1 Zugriff: (0777/lrwxrwxrwx) Uid: ( 0/ root) Gid: ( 0/ root) Zugriff : 2011-11-07 16:15:00.452189922 +0100 Modifiziert: 2011-11-07 16:15:00.452189922 +0100 Geändert : 2011-11-07 16:15:00.452189922 +0100 Geburt : -
On Fri, 2011-11-25 at 22:58 +0100, Frantisek Hanzlik wrote:
in each version of Fedora for several recent years I had to replace cripled and unmaintained wodim with original cdrtools, because otherwise I won't able burn CD/DVD media.
I haven't had to do that. I've burnt many CDs and DVDs with what Fedora already had.
Years and years ago, I can recall problems with the original burning tool, which may have been cdrtools, *STUPIDLY* requiring ordinary users to have root privileges to burn discs. I seem to recall he still thinks that's necessary.
My opinion of some software authors is not very high.
--- On Sat, 11/26/11, Tim ignored_mailbox@yahoo.com.au wrote:
From: Tim ignored_mailbox@yahoo.com.au Subject: Re: Fedora - time to blink To: "Community support for Fedora users" users@lists.fedoraproject.org Date: Saturday, November 26, 2011, 3:06 AM On Fri, 2011-11-25 at 22:58 +0100, Frantisek Hanzlik wrote:
in each version of Fedora for several recent years I
had to replace
cripled and unmaintained wodim with original cdrtools,
because
otherwise I won't able burn CD/DVD media.
I haven't had to do that. I've burnt many CDs and DVDs with what Fedora already had.
cdrdao and growisofs can do the job most of the time without having to use wodim.
Years and years ago, I can recall problems with the original burning tool, which may have been cdrtools, *STUPIDLY* requiring ordinary users to have root privileges to burn discs. I seem to recall he still thinks that's necessary.
Program runs as suid-root as it is required for some system calls.
My opinion of some software authors is not very high.
This is why Debian, Fedora and others apparently decided to go with the fork since they could not agree with Mr. Schilling. It is sad but true :( But then again, I don't think very much of the people who fork the code as well, since they went that route and not care about quality of code.
--
Users that want to burn DVDs use growisofs and when burning cds, they may substitute cdrdao in place of wodim. This works most of the time with Fedora tools. But if you want the original, you get and build the source and it does both.
BTW, Even if Fedora included the original cdrtools, it still would not be fully Free :( like the FSF recommends. They are very restrictive with many things and yet fail to be "Free Enough" :(
Like new coke vs original, which one is the one that you prefer?
Regards,
Antonio
--- On Sat, 11/26/11, Frantisek Hanzlik franta@hanzlici.cz wrote:
From: Frantisek Hanzlik franta@hanzlici.cz Subject: Re: Fedora - time to blink To: "Community support for Fedora users" users@lists.fedoraproject.org Date: Saturday, November 26, 2011, 2:24 AM Craig White wrote:
On Fri, 2011-11-25 at 22:58 +0100, Frantisek Hanzlik
wrote:
License restrictions are one thing, but IMO Fedora
did mistakes in
free SW preference too - e.g. in each version of
Fedora for several
recent years I had to replace cripled and
unmaintained wodim with
original cdrtools, because otherwise I won't able
burn CD/DVD media.
ah but it was exactly licensing issues that caused the
fork of cdrtools
into wodim...
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cdrkit
That said, it might have been more productive to file
bugs against wodim
for things that haven't worked for you.
Craig
It is far simpler for me build cdrtools package and have fine result in several minutes. And especially about wodim there was/is many bugreports and as I wrote, it was basically unmaintained.
But, I don't only criticise Fedora. When cdrtools is insuitable for Fedora, then probably may be in rpmfusion repos, and I can maintain it there. If so, can anyone give me any directions how do it?
Regards, Franta Hanzlik
Could this be of help:
http://www.openmamba.org/distribution/distromatic.html?tag=devel&pkg=cdr...
?
Also this
https://bugzilla.redhat.com/show_bug.cgi?id=507108
Whistler maintain(ed)(s)? for fedora cdrtools here:
https://skydrive.live.com/?cid=29bdd7826332657e&sc=documents&uc=4&am...
Hope this helps!
Regards,
Antonio
On Sat, 26 Nov 2011 08:38:44 -0800 (PST) Antonio Olivares wrote:
Also this
I've always had the suspicion that the real reason redhat won't distribute the original tools is the incredibly abrasive personality of the author (on display in this bugzilla and his web site :-).
Abrasive personality or not though, he is correct that the forked tools are so bug ridden as to be useless. They can write CDs - that's it. Any attempt to write DVDs produces an infinite supply of coasters, yet they continue to claim the tools work on DVDs and blu-rays.
Meanwhile, the original tools work perfectly (and are fortunately easy to build from source).
On 26/11/11 16:55, Tom Horsley wrote:
Abrasive personality or not though, he is correct that the forked tools are so bug ridden as to be useless. They can write CDs - that's it. Any attempt to write DVDs produces an infinite supply of coasters, yet they continue to claim the tools work on DVDs and blu-rays.
I never had a problem burning DVD(-RW)+- with xfburn\Xfce in F14\15\16.
Talking at least 600 dvd less two where the cat aborted the burn.
On 11/26/2011 09:34 PM, Antonio Olivares wrote:
This is why Debian, Fedora and others apparently decided to go with the fork since they could not agree with Mr. Schilling. It is sad but true :( But then again, I don't think very much of the people who fork the code as well, since they went that route and not care about quality of code.
You have zero basis for such assumptions and even if that is the case, licensing conflicts will always triumph code quality consideration since if a code cannot be included, there is no point in talking about how stable or buggy it is. It is Fedora's legal position that cdrkit has a licensing issue. It is the same position held by all other major distributions as well.
Like new coke vs original, which one is the one that you prefer?
Licensing issues are not a matter of taste
Rahul
On 11/26/2011 10:25 PM, Tom Horsley wrote:
Abrasive personality or not though, he is correct that the forked tools are so bug ridden as to be useless. They can write CDs - that's it. Any attempt to write DVDs produces an infinite supply of coasters, yet they continue to claim the tools work on DVDs and blu-rays.
Maybe because they do work for people? I am using it to write DVD's and it has worked just fine for me. I am sure there might be bugs but that simply justify your claims. Don't make absolutist statements unless you can back them up.
Rahul
I've always had the suspicion that the real reason redhat won't distribute the original tools is the incredibly abrasive personality of the author (on display in this bugzilla and his web site :-).
Here we go again! :) Red Hat won't distribute the original, Fedora is NOT Red Hat, but Red Hat does control Fedora ***blink*** and thus is what we get.
It also makes me think which EGO is bigger(his or Red Hat)? :) He(J. Schilling) is the original author, he wrote the code under GPL for many years, then something bad happens, disagreements, ...., etc and a change was made. He changed the license to CDDL which apparently by FSF is incompatible with GPL, ..., and the new cdrkit as made and distributed. The good thing is that one can get the source and build it and be done with it. Like some folks say, May the source be with You!
Abrasive personality or not though, he is correct that the forked tools are so bug ridden as to be useless. They can write CDs - that's it. Any attempt to write DVDs produces an infinite supply of coasters, yet they continue to claim the tools work on DVDs and blu-rays.
the cdrkit fork is based on an old technology(cdrtools 2.01aX ) and not recent versions of cdrecord and thus lack the features found in original :( Also before like some folks have mentioned to get the dvd/blue ray burning code, there was a key needed before, and J. Schilling later released the keyless version of cdrecord pro which had the dvd burning capability and new improvements :)
Meanwhile, the original tools work perfectly
I have even used the original with windows using cgywin(thanks Red Hat)
http://www.student.tugraz.at/thomas.plank/
and it lives up to its expectations.
(and are fortunately easy to build from source).
+1
--
Regards,
Antonio
Abrasive personality or not though, he is correct that the forked tools are so bug ridden as to be useless. They can write CDs - that's it. Any attempt to write DVDs produces an infinite supply of coasters, yet they continue to claim the tools work on DVDs and blu-rays.
Maybe because they do work for people?
For some people? But not all people :( or at least more than half of the people.
I am using it to write DVD's and it has worked just fine for me. I am sure there might be bugs but that simply justify your claims. Don't make absolutist statements unless you can back them up.
--
IT is great that it works for you, but sadly it does not for more people and thus the complaints against it :(
Do the bug reports count? The countless threads in which people have requested that many things be looked at?
Quietly people have abstained from writing bug reports and complaints because nothing is done! Things will not change :(
I have figured things out when I have to burn cds/dvds when I don't have original cdrtools installed on my machines.
For cds, I use cdrdao and for dvds I use growisofs from command line. They can do the job and be happy. Both work for the job. But to depend on wodim for it can depend on many things and it is sadly not as robust and dependable as the original.
My $0.02 Regards,
Antonio
On 11/27/2011 12:27 AM, Antonio Olivares wrote:
I've always had the suspicion that the real reason redhat won't distribute the original tools is the incredibly abrasive personality of the author (on display in this bugzilla and his web site :-).
Here we go again! :) Red Hat won't distribute the original, Fedora is NOT Red Hat, but Red Hat does control Fedora ***blink*** and thus is what we get.
It also makes me think which EGO is bigger(his or Red Hat)? :)
One person makes a incorrect statement and another piles up on it and no good can come out of that. The problem is a legal one. Red Hat has the legal liability over code that Fedora distributes and we rely on lawyers from Red Hat and FSF to verify that we can distribute code under the free and open source licenses. It has nothing to do with ego of anyone
Rahul
You have zero basis for such assumptions and even if that is the case, licensing conflicts will always triumph code quality consideration since if a code cannot be included, there is no point in talking about how stable or buggy it is.
It is Fedora's legal position that cdrkit has a licensing issue.
It has a licensing issue? I thought it was included because the original was the one that had the issue? or did you make a mistake here?
It is the same position held by all other major distributions as well.
--
Slackware is a major distribution. It includes original cdrtools :)
http://cdrecord.berlios.de/private/linux-dist.html
Slackware
Slackware ships the original cdrtools and does not even ship the broken fork.
I also use it and it comes with the original, there's a slackbuild from Patrick V.. So others like source based distros also have it. Nobody has sued them.
I have built packages for slax-remix & porteus using the slackbuild without problems.
Regards,
Antonio
On 11/27/2011 12:45 AM, Antonio Olivares wrote:
It has a licensing issue? I thought it was included because the original was the one that had the issue? or did you make a mistake here?
Yep. Just a typo
Slackware is a major distribution. It includes original cdrtools :)
http://cdrecord.berlios.de/private/linux-dist.html
Slackware
Slackware ships the original cdrtools and does not even ship the broken fork.
I also use it and it comes with the original, there's a slackbuild from Patrick V.. So others like source based distros also have it. Nobody has sued them.
Now you are just debating for the sake of it. Red Hat, Debian, Canonical, openSUSE, Fedora, FSF and several other have come to the same conclusion about the legal issues concerning mixing of GPL and CDDL'ed code. Now that you already recognize this since we have discussed the very same issue several times before, it is time to drop it and move on.
Rahul
On 11/27/2011 12:45 AM, Antonio Olivares wrote:
I also use it and it comes with the original, there's a slackbuild from Patrick V.. So others like source based distros also have it. Nobody has sued them.
One more thing. Source base distributions don't have the same legal liabilities as binary distributions for various licensing conflicts because they pass on compilation to the end users and besides none of them are funded by large commercial organizations and hence the risk is not the same. The last point applies to slackware as well.
Rahul
I've always had the suspicion that the real
reason
redhat won't distribute the original tools is the incredibly abrasive personality of the author (on display in this bugzilla and his web site
:-).
Here we go again! :) Red Hat won't distribute
the original, Fedora is NOT Red Hat, but Red Hat does control Fedora ***blink*** and thus is what we get.
It also makes me think which EGO is bigger(his or Red
Hat)? :)
One person makes a incorrect statement and another piles up on it and no good can come out of that. The problem is a legal one. Red Hat has the legal liability over code that Fedora distributes and we rely on lawyers from Red Hat and FSF to verify that we can distribute code under the free and open source licenses. It has nothing to do with ego of anyone
--
I am not questioning legality or licensing issues here. I was just wondering how EGOS get in the way of free sofware and Free and Open Source Software! We already know about those things in the forbidden items list :)
Regards,
Antonio
I also use it and it comes with the original, there's
a slackbuild from Patrick V.. So others like source based distros also have it. Nobody has sued them.
One more thing. Source base distributions don't have the same legal liabilities as binary distributions for various licensing conflicts because they pass on compilation to the end users and besides none of them are funded by large commercial organizations and hence the risk is not the same. The last point applies to slackware as well.
--
They distribute binaries as well or are included when one installs them. One does not need to compile them like we do on Fedora if we so desire.
My argument was based on the fact that you stated
<quote> It is the same position held by all other major distributions as well. </quote>
and Slackware is a major distribution and it does not share the same position.
http://distrowatch.com/dwres.php?resource=major
Regards,
Antonio
On 11/27/2011 01:25 AM, Antonio Olivares wrote:
My argument was based on the fact that you stated
<quote> It is the same position held by all other major distributions as well. </quote>
and Slackware is a major distribution and it does not share the same position.
Sure and I don't share the position that Slackware is a major distribution any longer. I consider it a niche one.
Rahul
On 11/27/2011 01:21 AM, Antonio Olivares wrote:
I am not questioning legality or licensing issues here. I was just wondering how EGOS get in the way of free sofware and Free and Open Source Software!
Answer: It doesn't in this case. Shilling is a notoriously abrasive personality but his code was widely distributed and would have continued that way till the point he decided to mess with licensing.
Rahul
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1
On 11/25/2011 02:10 PM, Patrick O'Callaghan wrote:
On Fri, 2011-11-25 at 13:30 -0500, Matt Rose wrote:
As well, KDE's track record on this is not exactly stellar. KDE4 was basically unusable up until 4.3 or so.
I'd dispute that. I've used KDE 4 since it came out and never had major problems with it (other than completely missing the point of the whole Activities stuff, easily solved by ignoring it). The chest-beating about the supposed disaster that was KDE 4 always seemed to me somewhat over the top, but YMMV.
Are you kidding? You'd have thought Fedora was eating people's babies - without salt - the way this list blew up when KDE4 came out in Fedora.
We're just seeing the same shit today. It'd be funny if it weren't so pathetic.
This *is* the bleeding edge. Sometimes it's dangerously sharp, but it always produces better and better code. Sometimes getting to the good stuff takes wading through some bad, it's just the way of the world.
This whole series of threads is just freaking ludicrous. "Those who cannot remember the past are condemned to repeat it" - George Santayana.
For those of us who've been around a while, this is like fingernails on a chalkboard that we have to listen to it every couple of years.
<throws up hands>
As well, KDE's track record on this is not exactly
stellar. KDE4 was
basically unusable up until 4.3 or so.
I'd dispute that. I've used KDE 4 since it came out
and never had major
problems with it (other than completely missing the
point of the whole
Activities stuff, easily solved by ignoring it). The
chest-beating about
the supposed disaster that was KDE 4 always seemed to
me somewhat over
the top, but YMMV.
Are you kidding? You'd have thought Fedora was eating people's babies - without salt - the way this list blew up when KDE4 came out in Fedora.
We're just seeing the same shit today. It'd be funny if it weren't so pathetic.
This *is* the bleeding edge. Sometimes it's dangerously sharp, but it always produces better and better code. Sometimes getting to the good stuff takes wading through some bad, it's just the way of the world.
This whole series of threads is just freaking ludicrous. "Those who cannot remember the past are condemned to repeat it" - George Santayana.
For those of us who've been around a while, this is like fingernails on a chalkboard that we have to listen to it every couple of years.
<throws up hands> --
+1
Some folks saw this coming! Turns out that now other desktops are following suit to TabletLand, even windows 8 :( The traditional desktop is apparently dying :( We ***guninea pigs*** got to test that out(kde 4 series in Fedora 9), gnome 3 series as well :) It has sharp edges, but it will get there. The Mint Folks have nice looking themes that maybe can be brought into Fedora for nice incorporation for those users that liked Gnome 2.X :)
Regards,
Antonio
Am 26.11.2011 22:02, schrieb Antonio Olivares:
Some folks saw this coming! Turns out that now other desktops are following suit to TabletLand, even windows 8 :( The traditional desktop is apparently dying :(
and this is simply dumb
the count of smartphones/tablets may become higher but his is only a number which does not matter
why?
because most of the smartphone/tablet users are using a traditional computer too
because a tblaet NEVER can replace those thounsands of workstations out there where the users MUCH more doing than read mails and look at some websites
some developers are thinking "it's new, it's cool, the others do not bother me" well, they can do so
but this will nothing change in the fact that POWER-USERS will always use a classical desktop, that most computers in professional environments will always need keyboads and a classical desktop
On Saturday 26 November 2011 13:02:03 Antonio Olivares wrote:
Are you kidding? You'd have thought Fedora was eating people's babies - without salt - the way this list blew up when KDE4 came out in Fedora.
+1
Some folks saw this coming! Turns out that now other desktops are following suit to TabletLand, even windows 8 :( The traditional desktop is apparently dying :( We ***guninea pigs*** got to test that out(kde 4 series in Fedora 9), gnome 3 series as well :) It has sharp edges, but it will get there. The Mint Folks have nice looking themes that maybe can be brought into Fedora for nice incorporation for those users that liked Gnome 2.X :)
Oh, I was there in the time of KDE4.0 bashing, and I warned the vocal Gnome- advocates that Gnome is going for a similar "redesign" sometime in the future. Back then I was reassured over and over that Gnome devs are not that stupid, and that they will not make such obvious mistakes of KDE4.
Today, as a happy user of the extremely functional and slick KDE 4.7.3, I just can't stop laughing whenever I see a Yet Another Gnome3-Bashing Thread on this list (and elsewhere on the Internet).
It is completely true that the Gnome devs have not repeated the KDE4 mistakes --- they have rather invented a whole new class of completely original mistakes, and hang on to them even through the Gnome 3.2 release... ;-)
KDE4.0 was released very early and it was underdeveloped at the time, which was considered stupid by a lot of users. But there were no mistakes in *design*, it just lacked configurability and features. This of course improved over time, and today it is arguably better than KDE3.5 has ever been.
In contrast, Gnome3 introduced some stuff (that most people here dislike) as a *design* *decision*, and they have no intention of changing it --- which is not something that is going to change so easily over time. I really wonder if anyone will ever persuade the Gnome3 devs to put back the Shutdown button where it belongs. ;-)
Best, :-) Marko
Some folks saw this coming! Turns out that now
other desktops are following suit to TabletLand,
even windows 8 :( The traditional desktop is
apparently dying :(
and this is simply dumb
the count of smartphones/tablets may become higher but his is only a number which does not matter
why?
because most of the smartphone/tablet users are using a traditional computer too
because a tblaet NEVER can replace those thounsands of workstations out there where the users MUCH more doing than read mails and look at some websites
some developers are thinking "it's new, it's cool, the others do not bother me" well, they can do so
but this will nothing change in the fact that POWER-USERS will always use a classical desktop, that most computers in professional environments will always need keyboads and a classical desktop
-----Inline Attachment Follows-----
I hear you :) I am with you, but sadly the desktop creators/maintainers/coders are going with it :( I even saw a guy on TV stating that there was no need for keyboards or mice anymore
I can't seem to find a video that illustrates this, but this is a similar idea/technology:
http://newtechpost.com/2011/03/16/thad-starner-wearable-computing-for-smarte...
In Windows 8 Preview, the desktop changes like for a tablet and one has to go to the registry to enable the old desktop see:
http://blog.miktex.org/post/2011/09/MiKTeX-on-Windows-8.aspx
All these changing in the ***blink*** of a eye!
Regards,
Antonio
On 26/11/11 18:23, Genes MailLists wrote:
On 11/26/2011 12:13 PM, Frank Murphy wrote:
I never had a problem burning DVD(-RW)+- with xfburn\Xfce in F14\15\16.
Curious - does xfburn use wodim or growisofs?
No idea, Where possible I stick to gui. But out of curiosity: ~$ rpm -q wodim growisofs wodim-1.1.11-8.fc16.x86_64 package growisofs is not installed
Am 26.11.2011 22:58, schrieb Antonio Olivares:
some developers are thinking "it's new, it's cool, the others do not bother me" well, they can do so
but this will nothing change in the fact that POWER-USERS will always use a classical desktop, that most computers in professional environments will always need keyboads and a classical desktop
-----Inline Attachment Follows-----
I hear you :) I am with you, but sadly the desktop creators/maintainers/coders are going with it :( I even saw a guy on TV stating that there was no need for keyboards or mice anymore
well, this people should go straight forward if they believe that this is the future, until they recognize that this decision is quite stupid we can use KDE which was a bad release with 4.0 because it was too early but it is useable and fine now
some years later i will laugh about all the peopole who are thinking keyboard and mouse has no future because all this kids will sooner or later (hopefully) get a job and realize what working with a computer means
On Sat, 26 Nov 2011 13:58:10 -0800 (PST) Antonio Olivares wrote:
I hear you :) I am with you, but sadly the desktop creators/maintainers/coders are going with it :( I even saw a guy on TV stating that there was no need for keyboards or mice anymore
Yea, I can't wait for the release of the first gnome interface produced by gnome developers who never used a keyboard or mouse during any of the development :-).
On 11/26/2011 05:07 PM, Frank Murphy wrote:
No idea, Where possible I stick to gui. But out of curiosity: ~$ rpm -q wodim growisofs wodim-1.1.11-8.fc16.x86_64 package growisofs is not installed
Try this instead:
rpm -q --whatprovides /usr/bin/growisofs dvd+rw-tools-7.1-5.fc14.x86_64
(this is on F15 - for some reason I have never understoon - some packages dont get rebuilt and/or repackages ... )
gene
On 11/27/2011 03:50 AM, Genes MailLists wrote:
Try this instead:
rpm -q --whatprovides /usr/bin/growisofs dvd+rw-tools-7.1-5.fc14.x86_64
(this is on F15 - for some reason I have never understoon - some packages dont get rebuilt and/or repackages ... )
Simple: Packages don't rebuilt unless there is a necessity to do so
Rahul
On 11/26/2011 05:31 PM, Rahul Sundaram wrote:
On 11/27/2011 03:50 AM, Genes MailLists wrote:
Try this instead:
rpm -q --whatprovides /usr/bin/growisofs dvd+rw-tools-7.1-5.fc14.x86_64
(this is on F15 - for some reason I have never understoon - some packages dont get rebuilt and/or repackages ... )
Simple: Packages don't rebuilt unless there is a necessity to do so
Rahul
Ok - simple, well fine, but beyond the obvious "duh" here, define necessity please? (Rhetorical)
How do you (or maintainers) know with certainty that there isn't a header file dependence, or a compiler change that would lead to a faster (or a bug for that matter).
Is that a necessity if someone has verified working functionality of an older binary - no probably not - (tho I have no idea if such testing occurs) but it will lead to bugs being found sooner and any benefits from compiler improvements etc being taken advantage of. And frankly, its a bad operational decision to defer full builds.
Further - it just plain 'looks' better for f15 packages to be called f15.
Necessity? Probably not - is it a good idea to wait until a problem occurs as the decision to rebuild - also probably not.
One man's simple is another man's food for thought.
/Isn't it time to change the subject line Roger /
On 11/26/2011 05:31 PM, Rahul Sundaram wrote:
On 11/27/2011 03:50 AM, Genes MailLists wrote:
Try this instead:
rpm -q --whatprovides /usr/bin/growisofs dvd+rw-tools-7.1-5.fc14.x86_64
(this is on F15 - for some reason I have never understoon - some packages dont get rebuilt and/or repackages ... )
Simple: Packages don't rebuilt unless there is a necessity to do so
Rahul
Ok - simple, well fine, but beyond the obvious "duh" here, define necessity please? (Rhetorical)
How do you (or maintainers) know with certainty that there isn't a header file dependence, or a compiler change that would lead to a faster (or a bug for that matter).
Is that a necessity if someone has verified working functionality of an older binary - no probably not - (tho I have no idea if such testing occurs) but it will lead to bugs being found sooner and any benefits from compiler improvements etc being taken advantage of. And frankly, its a bad operational decision to defer full builds.
Further - it just plain 'looks' better for f15 packages to be called f15.
Necessity? Probably not - is it a good idea to wait until a problem occurs as the decision to rebuild - also probably not.
One man's simple is another man's food for thought.
Am 26.11.2011 23:31, schrieb Rahul Sundaram:
On 11/27/2011 03:50 AM, Genes MailLists wrote:
Try this instead:
rpm -q --whatprovides /usr/bin/growisofs dvd+rw-tools-7.1-5.fc14.x86_64
(this is on F15 - for some reason I have never understoon - some packages dont get rebuilt and/or repackages ... )
Simple: Packages don't rebuilt unless there is a necessity to do so
and what about the mass-rebuilds usually happening in devel-cycle after upgrades of GCC, GLIBC etc.?
99% of all packages are rebuilt there what is with the one percent?
do they not sucessfully compile? if yes - why does this nobody interest?
for me this is a part of QA and if any package shipped with the distribution does not compile inside a mass-rebuild there must be something wrong!
Rahul Sundaram <metherid <at> gmail.com> writes:
On 11/27/2011 03:50 AM, Genes MailLists wrote:
Try this instead:
rpm -q --whatprovides /usr/bin/growisofs dvd+rw-tools-7.1-5.fc14.x86_64
(this is on F15 - for some reason I have never understoon - some packages dont get rebuilt and/or repackages ... )
Simple: Packages don't rebuilt unless there is a necessity to do so
In this case, though, there was a mass rebuild for F15 for the new xz compression, and all packages WERE supposed to be rebuilt, but many, including this one, never were. (See http://robatino.fedorapeople.org/old_compression_DVDs/ for lists of packages on the DVDs which are still using the old xz compression, this is just a fraction of what's in the Everything repo.)
On 11/26/2011 05:02 PM, Reindl Harald wrote:
Simple: Packages don't rebuilt unless there is a necessity to do so
and what about the mass-rebuilds usually happening in devel-cycle after upgrades of GCC, GLIBC etc.?
99% of all packages are rebuilt there what is with the one percent?
do they not sucessfully compile? if yes - why does this nobody interest?
for me this is a part of QA and if any package shipped with the distribution does not compile inside a mass-rebuild there must be something wrong!
Well, some packages do not need to be rebuilt. Things like the noarch packages - shell scripts usually do not need to be changed. Unless there is a major change in Pearl or Python that necessitates changes in the program, packages written those languages are not going to need to be rebuilt. I am sure you can find other examples if you try...
Mikkel
Am 27.11.2011 00:43, schrieb Mikkel L. Ellertson:
On 11/26/2011 05:02 PM, Reindl Harald wrote:
Simple: Packages don't rebuilt unless there is a necessity to do so
and what about the mass-rebuilds usually happening in devel-cycle after upgrades of GCC, GLIBC etc.?
99% of all packages are rebuilt there what is with the one percent?
do they not sucessfully compile? if yes - why does this nobody interest?
for me this is a part of QA and if any package shipped with the distribution does not compile inside a mass-rebuild there must be something wrong!
Well, some packages do not need to be rebuilt. Things like the noarch packages - shell scripts usually do not need to be changed. Unless there is a major change in Pearl or Python that necessitates changes in the program, packages written those languages are not going to need to be rebuilt. I am sure you can find other examples if you try...
a mass-rebuild is a mass-rebuild and a part of QA
i saw locally no-arch packages building on F11,F12 and F13 without any problem, on F14 no way to get it built and on F15 wrong dependencies injected, but well the old package is running
finally it was one line in a perl-script what was wrong since years and only catched because rpmbuild worked better than before
anyways - usually in the mass-rebuilds of fedora also noarch-packages are rebuilt if they are not something is dirty, yes you can say "does not matter, works" maybe, but something goes wrong, if it is the sourcecode, rpmbuild or any other package involved in the build which has changed is not relevant because this is a sign that something does not work as expected
yes, time is a factor, but maybe development should take a breath and fix such issues every second release to optimize quality, get features of the last release-cycles really stable and clean instead introduce new ones
in my opinion this should never be irgnored because if you ignore small problems in the IT because "it just works" sooner or later they are growing until you can not ignore thmen and mostly you have really no time and energy exactly at this point to figure out what is happening
let me say this after 10 years web-development where some guys think they can lower error-reportings and all is fine but they all start whining after a php-upgrade while my work is running all the time because i never ignore any warning
quality and security should ALWAYS win against features and glitter especially in free software where no marketing is announcing the next big thing and calculate how much money in what time must be generated
On Sat, 2011-11-26 at 14:18 -0600, Thomas Cameron wrote:
I'd dispute that. I've used KDE 4 since it came out and never had
major
problems with it (other than completely missing the point of the
whole
Activities stuff, easily solved by ignoring it). The chest-beating
about
the supposed disaster that was KDE 4 always seemed to me somewhat
over
the top, but YMMV.
Are you kidding? You'd have thought Fedora was eating people's babies
without salt - the way this list blew up when KDE4 came out in Fedora.
Exactly my point. Why do you ask if I'm kidding when you appear to agree with me?
poc
On 11/26/2011 12:18 PM, Thomas Cameron wrote:
This*is* the bleeding edge. Sometimes it's dangerously sharp, but it always produces better and better code.
No it doesn't. Sometimes it turns out that an idea that sounded good Just Doesn't Work. That's part of what Fedora is for: finding out what works, what doesn't and honing the good stuff until it's ready to be used in a production environment.
On 11/26/2011 02:10 PM, Reindl Harald wrote:
some years later i will laugh about all the peopole who are thinking keyboard and mouse has no future because all this kids will sooner or later (hopefully) get a job and realize what working with a computer means
It occurs to me that the people saying that the keyboard and mouse have no future are conflating using a computer and working on a computer. I know a number of authors[1] and I doubt that any of them would consider doing serious work on a computer that didn't have a keyboard.
[1]Not writers, authors; writers write, and maybe get published. Authors live off of their writing and don't need day jobs.
On 11/27/2011 04:22 AM, Genes MailLists wrote:
How do you (or maintainers) know with certainty that there isn't a header file dependence, or a compiler change that would lead to a faster (or a bug for that matter).
The base toolchain has a lot of Red Hat developers working on it and they are the authoritative experts on when there is rebuild required and announce it. Verification is done via scripted rebuilds
http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Fails_to_build_from_source
Further - it just plain 'looks' better for f15 packages to be called f15.
I agree however cost of spending build resources needs to be justified against this.
Necessity? Probably not - is it a good idea to wait until a problem occurs as the decision to rebuild - also probably not.
We don't do that.
Rahul
On 11/27/2011 05:28 AM, Reindl Harald wrote:
quality and security should ALWAYS win against features and glitter especially in free software where no marketing is announcing the next big thing and calculate how much money in what time must be generated
You appear repeatedly demanding for someone else to do the work. This isn't how open source projects work. If you care, step up and contribute. Don't sit on the sidelines and preach.
Rahul
On 11/27/2011 07:38 AM, Joe Zeff wrote:
On 11/26/2011 12:18 PM, Thomas Cameron wrote:
This*is* the bleeding edge. Sometimes it's dangerously sharp, but it always produces better and better code.
No it doesn't. Sometimes it turns out that an idea that sounded good Just Doesn't Work.
People who do the work decide what works or doesn't work. This isn't a democracy.
Rahul
On 11/26/2011 04:10 AM, Patrick O'Callaghan wrote:
On Fri, 2011-11-25 at 13:30 -0500, Matt Rose wrote:
As well, KDE's track record on this is not exactly stellar. KDE4 was basically unusable up until 4.3 or so.
I'd dispute that. I've used KDE 4 since it came out and never had major problems with it (other than completely missing the point of the whole Activities stuff, easily solved by ignoring it). The chest-beating about the supposed disaster that was KDE 4 always seemed to me somewhat over the top, but YMMV.
I suppose people have different tolerances but for me KDE 4, when launched was a train-wreck. It just didn't feel finished. Which was a shame as I'd been a long time user of KDE since 2000 or so. I switched to Gnome at that time. Thanks to Gnome 3 I may well be heading back. The irony. :-)
On Sun, 27 Nov 2011 22:27:12 +0800 Ian Chapman wrote:
Thanks to Gnome 3 I may well be heading back.
Don't worry, in the current climate it is only a matter of time before the KDE developers are seized with the same "all the world's a tablet" disease and come out with a KDE5 where they try to win the contest and make it even worse than Unity :-).
This really seems like a new instance of Tulip Bulb Mania that has hit UI developers en masse.
On 11/27/2011 05:56 AM, Marko Vojinovic wrote:
KDE4.0 was released very early and it was underdeveloped at the time, which was considered stupid by a lot of users. But there were no mistakes in *design*, it just lacked configurability and features. This of course improved over time, and today it is arguably better than KDE3.5 has ever been.
There were no mistakes in design? That's all well and good but people can't use a product that isn't there yet. I honestly don't understand why there's a trend to drop an older version of a product, release a next generation version which does *less* than the older version. And they wonder why people bitch about it?
In contrast, Gnome3 introduced some stuff (that most people here dislike) as a *design* *decision*, and they have no intention of changing it --- which is not something that is going to change so easily over time. I really wonder if anyone will ever persuade the Gnome3 devs to put back the Shutdown button where it belongs. ;-)
Or why I have to press Alt + RMB to pop up a menu on a panel in Gnome? Seriously, WTF?
On Sun, 2011-11-27 at 22:47 +0800, Ian Chapman wrote:
why I have to press Alt + RMB to pop up a menu on a panel in Gnome? Seriously, WTF?
Gosh, gee, Gnome just don't understand the concept of a menu. It's supposed to present you with your list of choices, neatly categorised, simply by looking at it. Are they playing the easter egg game, where we have to go around trying out various random key sequences to see what might happen?
It's a dumb user interface that requires you to press keys as well as use the mouse, to make use of a menu. Quite apart from hiding things, it's a usability issue from anyone who has trouble using both hands at the same time.
Joe Zeff:
No it doesn't. Sometimes it turns out that an idea that sounded good Just Doesn't Work.
Rahul Sundaram:
People who do the work decide what works or doesn't work. This isn't a democracy.
No. They can decide what they want to do. But what works, or doesn't work, is born out by what actually works or not. Not what you want.
On 11/27/2011 10:39 PM, Tom Horsley wrote:
Thanks to Gnome 3 I may well be heading back.
Don't worry, in the current climate it is only a matter of time before the KDE developers are seized with the same "all the world's a tablet" disease and come out with a KDE5 where they try to win the contest and make it even worse than Unity :-).
I suspect you're right. I've played with Unity too and I think I dislike it more than I do gnome shell which is saying something. Between the disappearing menus at the top, the scrollbars which only appear if you move the mouse over a 2 pixel line and playing hunt your application in the dashboard it's enough to drive anybody insane. To cap it all off, the recent program list never actually seems to contain programs you recently launched. Bizarre. I'm all for having good tablet/phone interfaces but that's where they should stay.
On 11/27/2011 11:10 PM, Tim wrote:
On Sun, 2011-11-27 at 22:47 +0800, Ian Chapman wrote:
why I have to press Alt + RMB to pop up a menu on a panel in Gnome? Seriously, WTF?
Gosh, gee, Gnome just don't understand the concept of a menu. It's supposed to present you with your list of choices, neatly categorised, simply by looking at it. Are they playing the easter egg game, where we have to go around trying out various random key sequences to see what might happen?
It certainly feels like it. I have particular problems remembering hot-keys. I rarely use them and rely heavily on the mouse and menus. I think the main reason is because I have to regularly use 7 different desktops on 4 different operating systems and don't like surprises when a hot-key doesn't do what you expect.
It's a dumb user interface that requires you to press keys as well as use the mouse, to make use of a menu. Quite apart from hiding things, it's a usability issue from anyone who has trouble using both hands at the same time.
On top off not actually giving you a hint as to what the hot key should be.
On Sun, 2011-11-27 at 22:47 +0800, Ian Chapman wrote:
On 11/27/2011 05:56 AM, Marko Vojinovic wrote:
KDE4.0 was released very early and it was underdeveloped at the time, which was considered stupid by a lot of users. But there were no mistakes in *design*, it just lacked configurability and features. This of course improved over time, and today it is arguably better than KDE3.5 has ever been.
There were no mistakes in design? That's all well and good but people can't use a product that isn't there yet. I honestly don't understand why there's a trend to drop an older version of a product, release a next generation version which does *less* than the older version. And they wonder why people bitch about it?
Indeed - I'd call that claim as much of a bad decision as saying there were no design decisions in KDE4. The fact is there were - and still are - design and feature/function issues in *both* KDE and Gnome, many of which were done by well-meaning, but clearly misguided developers who don't understand or empathize well with the actual user experience.
Or why I have to press Alt + RMB to pop up a menu on a panel in Gnome? Seriously, WTF?
RMB on the window's title bar produces the same pop-up menu. It's only when you want to do that from another location on the window that Alt-RMB is required.
I just upgraded my mom's computer from F14 to F16 on Friday. It was a total mess. The Nouveau drivers were impressively unstable with her EVGA nVidia card. It only took several tries - with as many reboots - to get the nVidia drivers packaged from RPM Fusion to work.
Once the system video was reasonably stable, I spent about 30 minutes teaching my mother where everything had been moved to in going from Gnome 2 to Gnome 3. Had she been left to her own, she would have been ready to throw the entire thing out!!! On average, things that took her 2 mouse-clicks to do on Gnome 2 now take:
mouse gesture + mouse click + wait several seconds + mouse click + mouse scroll + mouse click
Who in their right mind as a user experience engineer calls this progress?
I spent more time customizing her Gnome 3 desktop to make things easier for her than I did installing the system! Even then, not all of the extensions are necessarily what I would call stable since several of them will crash Gnome at login (the famous "Oh, no! Something has gone wrong!" screen). The worst culprit right now seems to be the alternate status menu extension that puts a shutdown button back on the user menu.
This has been the poorest quality distro launch of Fedora I have ever seen - and I've used this distro since FC1, and the old RHL before that!!!
Alan Cox is right, there needs to be a lot of attention paid to stability and user experience with respect to updates to F16, and for at least the next two releases...
Chris
On 11/27/2011 08:40 PM, Tim wrote:
Joe Zeff:
No it doesn't. Sometimes it turns out that an idea that sounded good Just Doesn't Work.
Rahul Sundaram:
People who do the work decide what works or doesn't work. This isn't a democracy.
No. They can decide what they want to do. But what works, or doesn't work, is born out by what actually works or not. Not what you want.
You are missing the point. What works or not is pretty subjective and as long as people are willing to do the work and use it, it is useful for them. Noone else has any control over that.
Rahul
On Sun, 2011-11-27 at 20:57 +0530, Rahul Sundaram wrote:
On 11/27/2011 08:40 PM, Tim wrote:
Joe Zeff:
No it doesn't. Sometimes it turns out that an idea that sounded good Just Doesn't Work.
Rahul Sundaram:
People who do the work decide what works or doesn't work. This isn't a democracy.
No. They can decide what they want to do. But what works, or doesn't work, is born out by what actually works or not. Not what you want.
You are missing the point. What works or not is pretty subjective and as long as people are willing to do the work and use it, it is useful for them. Noone else has any control over that.
Actually, I have to disagree with you on that. What works or not is *partially* subjective, especially when it comes to user experience. There are some things that just don't work, period.
Users are willing to put up with lack of or poor function - look at Windows or text messaging on phone keypads for examples - if, on balance, the perceived benefits of getting something done outweigh the crappy way in which they have to do it. Users will also invent workarounds as necessary to get done what they need. Again, witness all of the abbreviations that came out of text messaging on phone keypads.
When developers are not willing to work on fixing these shortcomings and users no longer are willing to put up with using them (or other developers provide a better way) users change systems.
So, in the end, users - and not developers - have the control because they will vote with their feet if things get bad enough.
I'd submit we're pretty durn' close to that with Gnome 3.X right now...
Chris
On 11/27/2011 11:22 PM, Christopher A. Williams wrote:
Or why I have to press Alt + RMB to pop up a menu on a panel in Gnome? Seriously, WTF?
RMB on the window's title bar produces the same pop-up menu. It's only when you want to do that from another location on the window that Alt-RMB is required.
It's also required for me to add an applet to the gnome panel which is what I was referring to. I'm not understanding why I should have to.
I just upgraded my mom's computer from F14 to F16 on Friday. It was a total mess. The Nouveau drivers were impressively unstable with her EVGA nVidia card. It only took several tries - with as many reboots - to get the nVidia drivers packaged from RPM Fusion to work.
Yeah I had to disable kernel mode setting and nouveau was messy for me too but I always install the proprietary drivers anyway. Given the circumstances of Nouveau (ie reverse engineering) it's an amazing effort that it works as well as it does.
Once the system video was reasonably stable, I spent about 30 minutes teaching my mother where everything had been moved to in going from Gnome 2 to Gnome 3. Had she been left to her own, she would have been ready to throw the entire thing out!!! On average, things that took her 2 mouse-clicks to do on Gnome 2 now take:
Yeah my wife now only boots up the netbook into Windows because she doesn't like that new "window thing" because it does "weird stuff". She couldn't care less before whether it was in Windows or Linux when she used it. I'll probably get around to sticking XFCE on it for her or put Gnome in fall back mode but these days I'm past evangelising too. :-)
On 11/27/2011 05:28 AM, Rahul Sundaram wrote:
On 11/27/2011 07:38 AM, Joe Zeff wrote:
On 11/26/2011 12:18 PM, Thomas Cameron wrote:
This*is* the bleeding edge. Sometimes it's dangerously sharp, but it always produces better and better code.
No it doesn't. Sometimes it turns out that an idea that sounded good Just Doesn't Work.
People who do the work decide what works or doesn't work. This isn't a democracy.
No argument there! However, that doesn't negate my point that not all neat ideas pan out.
On 11/27/2011 09:10 PM, Christopher A. Williams wrote:
Actually, I have to disagree with you on that. What works or not is *partially* subjective, especially when it comes to user experience. There are some things that just don't work, period.
I don't think you will find any real consensus on what doesnt work in say GNOME 3.x. Just using a few loud people in any list isn't useful. You will have to do a fairly extensive user interface research with samples from non technical users fully new to the user interface to conclude anything meaningful. I don't expect anyone will step up to do that and hence what we will get is almost fully subjective.
Rahul
On 11/27/2011 08:02 AM, Ian Chapman wrote:
It's also required for me to add an applet to the gnome panel which is what I was referring to. I'm not understanding why I should have to
AIUI, you have to write and/or install various extensions to Gnome 3 to regain functionality that was in Gnome 2 out-of-the-box. What I don't understand, however, is why this is called progress.
On 27/11/11 16:33, Joe Zeff wrote:
On 11/27/2011 08:02 AM, Ian Chapman wrote:
It's also required for me to add an applet to the gnome panel which is what I was referring to. I'm not understanding why I should have to
AIUI, you have to write and/or install various extensions to Gnome 3 to regain functionality that was in Gnome 2 out-of-the-box. What I don't understand, however, is why this is called progress.
Possibly so someone can say "It's not bloated, you installed all that stuff"
On 11/28/2011 12:33 AM, Joe Zeff wrote:
AIUI, you have to write and/or install various extensions to Gnome 3 to regain functionality that was in Gnome 2 out-of-the-box. What I don't understand, however, is why this is called progress.
You're not supposed to understand. Just know that it's good for you ;-)
On 11/27/2011 11:18 AM, Rahul Sundaram wrote:
On 11/27/2011 09:10 PM, Christopher A. Williams wrote:
Actually, I have to disagree with you on that. What works or not is *partially* subjective, especially when it comes to user experience. There are some things that just don't work, period.
I don't think you will find any real consensus on what doesnt work in say GNOME 3.x. Just using a few loud people in any list isn't useful. You will have to do a fairly extensive user interface research with samples from non technical users fully new to the user interface to conclude anything meaningful. I don't expect anyone will step up to do that and hence what we will get is almost fully subjective.
In the past some surveys were done - and some complained that the sample was biased - whether by fedora users or users who subscribe to the mailing lists - but the complainers were generally those who disagreed with the outcome :-)
Not scientific at all - and whilst I have heard of a small number of users on mailing lists etc who like the G3.2 tablet approach (hearsay) ...
... I can definitely speak to quite a few people who were gnome users .. and all of them have abandoned it for KDE or XFCE ... small sample and not meaningful for sure ...
One thing all the users I know have in common - they use their computers for more than browsing/email. Some program (web dev or c/c++ developers, kernel coders), some use it for business, others for other work). Some manage computers for others.
From my experience, its more than 'a few loud people' as suggested above. Many are very quiet in fact .. and just move on.
The users on the fedora lists are definitely a subset of all users, but I suspect they are nonetheless reasonably representative of the majority either directly or because the manage computers for others. Some use it as a heads up for RHEL as well ... whats coming down the pike is useful for planning purposes.
gene
What is this thread about? Or maybe it's easier to say what it's not about ;-)
On Sun, Nov 27, 2011 at 10:38 AM, Frank Murphy frankly3d@gmail.com wrote:
On 27/11/11 16:33, Joe Zeff wrote:
On 11/27/2011 08:02 AM, Ian Chapman wrote:
It's also required for me to add an applet to the gnome panel which is what I was referring to. I'm not understanding why I should have to
AIUI, you have to write and/or install various extensions to Gnome 3 to regain functionality that was in Gnome 2 out-of-the-box. What I don't understand, however, is why this is called progress.
Possibly so someone can say "It's not bloated, you installed all that stuff"
-- users mailing list users@lists.fedoraproject.org To unsubscribe or change subscription options: https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/users Guidelines: http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Mailing_list_guidelines
On Sun, 27 Nov 2011 10:45:50 -0600 Neal Hogan nealhogan@gmail.com wrote:
What is this thread about? Or maybe it's easier to say what it's not about ;-)
welcome to fedora users! I love this mlist for this threads without head and tail. This is the only list by which i can't unsubscribe, really
On 11/27/2011 10:13 PM, Genes MailLists wrote:
In the past some surveys were done - and some complained that the sample was biased - whether by fedora users or users who subscribe to the mailing lists - but the complainers were generally those who disagreed with the outcome :-)
User interface research is what I suggested. Not surveys. I don't really think this list is a reasonable sample. Mailing list tends to attract a specific type of audience. You have to be knowledgeable enough to subscribe and follow the list and be interested enough to participate regularly. You can compare and contrast this to say even a forum to know the difference.
A reasonable sample would include things like the one Sun did in the GNOME 2.x ages long back or the more recent Novell one where you get audience from different backgrounds, sex and age groups to do some basic tasks and figure out what works, doesn't and needs improvement. Surveys are not a replacement and dont convey anywhere close to that amount of useful information.
Rahul
On Sun, 27 Nov 2011 10:45:50 -0600 Neal Hogan nealhogan@gmail.com wrote:
What is this thread about? Or maybe it's easier to say what it's not about ;-)
Well, now that you ask, I'd say that its about 50 to 100 messages too long.
-- cmg
On 11/27/2011 11:45 AM, Neal Hogan wrote:
What is this thread about? Or maybe it's easier to say what it's not about ;-)
It started as a Troll and has morphed into what you see now.
Which was probably the intention of the Troll. A long, never ending 'chat type' thread that meanders in content. On a help list. :-)
On Sun, Nov 27, 2011 at 10:38 AM, Frank Murphy frankly3d@gmail.com wrote:
On 27/11/11 16:33, Joe Zeff wrote:
Possibly so someone can say "It's not bloated, you installed all that stuff"
On 11/27/2011 08:57 AM, David wrote:
On Sun, Nov 27, 2011 at 10:38 AM, Frank Murphyfrankly3d@gmail.com wrote:
On 27/11/11 16:33, Joe Zeff wrote:
Possibly so someone can say "It's not bloated, you installed all that stuff"
Please get your attributions right. There's nothing of mine quoted here.
On Sun, Nov 27, 2011 at 7:39 AM, Tom Horsley horsley1953@gmail.com wrote:
On Sun, 27 Nov 2011 22:27:12 +0800 Ian Chapman wrote:
Thanks to Gnome 3 I may well be heading back.
Don't worry, in the current climate it is only a matter of time before the KDE developers are seized with the same "all the world's a tablet" disease and come out with a KDE5 where they try to win the contest and make it even worse than Unity :-).
You do not have to worry about this, unless someone kidnaps all of the core KDE developers between now and mid-2012. As the guy working on KDE's rendition of a tablet interface, Plasma Active, says: [1]
"...we do not believe in the 'one interface that runs on both your desktop and your tablet'. We believe in code reuse, in component-reuse (and, where beneficial, drop-in-replacement), compatibility and interoperability; but we also believe that a tablet interface and a desktop interface are not, and should not, be the same thing. The use cases and form factors are just too different.
"We have no plans of bastardizing Plasma Desktop into a watered-down attempt at a tablet interface that also sort-of-makes-sense on a laptop. We feel this only produces interfaces that perform OK but not great on either kind of device. We want interfaces that work great on each sort of device."
Furthermore, KDE 5 is just going to be an incremental release, moving some stuff from kdelibs to Qt 5 (which is also planned to be a minor incremental release) where it makes sense, and cleaning up the libraries to make them more useful for non-KDE applications. The current plans call for "recompile and test" to be the only thing necessary for porting to KDE 5.
-T.C.
[1] http://aseigo.blogspot.com/2011/09/more-on-active-strategy.html
On 27/11/11 17:08, Joe Zeff wrote:
On Sun, Nov 27, 2011 at 10:38 AM, Frank Murphyfrankly3d@gmail.com wrote:
Possibly so someone can say "It's not bloated, you installed all that stuff"
Please get your attributions right. There's nothing of mine quoted here.
That's what top-posting brings. (Not JZ) Let's see the rant's now.
On Sun, 27 Nov 2011 17:13:53 +0000 Frank Murphy frankly3d@gmail.com wrote:
That's what top-posting brings. (Not JZ) Let's see the rant's now.
A. Because people read from top to bottom. Q. Why should I not top post? A: Because it messes up the order in which people normally read text. Q: Why is top-posting such a bad thing? A: Top-posting. Q: What is the most annoying thing in e-mail?
Am 27.11.2011 19:32, schrieb Maurizio Marini:
On Sun, 27 Nov 2011 17:13:53 +0000 Frank Murphy frankly3d@gmail.com wrote:
That's what top-posting brings. (Not JZ) Let's see the rant's now.
A. Because people read from top to bottom. Q. Why should I not top post? A: Because it messes up the order in which people normally read text. Q: Why is top-posting such a bad thing? A: Top-posting. Q: What is the most annoying thing in e-mail?
but only in mailing-lists and there only because not all are doing this
yes i and peopole are reading from top to bottom and if i follow a conversation i normally know the postings before so i need only to read the answers
with top-posting i would not have to scroll or ONLY if i have not read the messages before and even if i do not know the whole thread i must only ONE TIME scroll down and read from bottom to top, but only once
so the only real problem is that so many people do not top-posting and that they which do not realize if the thread was with answers below the question and suddenly start mixing what is really bad because you have a question and some answers below and some in top of
in business-communication top posting and TOFU is normally because with TOFU you need only the last mail of a conversation and with the top-posting you need not to scroll and see the whole answer in the preview after select a message
so this is all a point of view
On Sun, 27 Nov 2011 13:00:20 -0600 Reindl Harald h.reindl@thelounge.net wrote:
Am 27.11.2011 19:32, schrieb Maurizio Marini:
On Sun, 27 Nov 2011 17:13:53 +0000 Frank Murphy frankly3d@gmail.com wrote:
That's what top-posting brings. (Not JZ) Let's see the rant's now.
A. Because people read from top to bottom. Q. Why should I not top post? A: Because it messes up the order in which people normally read text. Q: Why is top-posting such a bad thing? A: Top-posting. Q: What is the most annoying thing in e-mail?
but only in mailing-lists and there only because not all are doing this
yes i and peopole are reading from top to bottom and if i follow a conversation i normally know the postings before so i need only to read the answers
with top-posting i would not have to scroll or ONLY if i have not read the messages before and even if i do not know the whole thread i must only ONE TIME scroll down and read from bottom to top, but only once
so the only real problem is that so many people do not top-posting and that they which do not realize if the thread was with answers below the question and suddenly start mixing what is really bad because you have a question and some answers below and some in top of
in business-communication top posting and TOFU is normally because with TOFU you need only the last mail of a conversation and with the top-posting you need not to scroll and see the whole answer in the preview after select a message
so this is all a point of view
Actually, this has always been a amusing but major source of friction from supposed net guardian angels and those that (in their words) lack netiquette. From the way I see it, the fundamental disagreement stems from whether e-mail should be considered to be a form of letter-writing (in which case top-posting makes a lot of sense) or a substitute for conversation (in which case it is not). But, as you say, it is a point of view.
In any case, one should always be careful against wrongful attribution.
Best wishes, Ranjan
You will have to do a fairly extensive user interface research with samples from non technical users fully new to the user interface to conclude anything meaningful.
Rahul
--
You have to be kidding! "research"? On a 6-month release early release often desktop? If you do research, then what influence will the research have? Developers have already made up their minds and released their new innovations, and "not" what the research is asking for. You want to look at new small screens like tablets, phones and other small stuff and replace the traditional desktop with that. Each thing should have their own interfaces and not make a "One for all" desktop, which is what appears to be happening at this point.
"non technical users fully new to the user interface"
What do you mean? Do you mean converts? The current users would inspire others to use Desktops on Operating systems and not new users to a new interface!
Is this "new interface" a tablet and not a traditional desktop?
I don't expect anyone will step up to do that and hence what we will get is almost fully subjective.
Step up to what? to new TABLET LAND Desktop Interfaces on a traditional desktop? Do research and still see a new interface which goes against many people's comfort zones? File bug reports and see a "CLOSED NOT A BUG" because they have made up their minds before taking a look at the users' requests. Everything is subjective now including desktop interfaces and what people want to use.
People have already spoken (Look at KDE 4.0 on Fedora 9 ) and now it has matured, but the point should have been learned.
Regards,
Antonio
On 11/27/2011 12:13 PM, Frank Murphy wrote:
On 27/11/11 17:08, Joe Zeff wrote:
On Sun, Nov 27, 2011 at 10:38 AM, Frank Murphyfrankly3d@gmail.com wrote:
Possibly so someone can say "It's not bloated, you installed all that stuff"
Please get your attributions right. There's nothing of mine quoted here.
That's what top-posting brings. (Not JZ) Let's see the rant's now.
Dam*! Not I have to find my asbestos suit and tinfoil hat.
On Sunday 27 November 2011 20:00:20 Reindl Harald wrote:
Am 27.11.2011 19:32, schrieb Maurizio Marini:
A. Because people read from top to bottom. Q. Why should I not top post? A: Because it messes up the order in which people normally read text. Q: Why is top-posting such a bad thing? A: Top-posting. Q: What is the most annoying thing in e-mail?
but only in mailing-lists and there only because not all are doing this
yes i and peopole are reading from top to bottom and if i follow a conversation i normally know the postings before so i need only to read the answers
I envy you for your memory, if you are really able to remember every line of conversation in all threads you are following. I typically follow 10-20 threads on various mailing lists simultaneously, and it is quite impossible for me to remember everything everyone said. So it is often useful to skim through the previous material, to refresh the topic in my mind and then read the latest post.
If you are following only two or three threads simultaneously, I agree this might not be important.
with top-posting i would not have to scroll or ONLY if i have not read the messages before and even if i do not know the whole thread i must only ONE TIME scroll down and read from bottom to top, but only once
And in these cases, it is more natural to read from top to bottom than vice versa.
so the only real problem is that so many people do not top-posting and that they which do not realize if the thread was with answers below the question and suddenly start mixing what is really bad because you have a question and some answers below and some in top of
Yes, this is the worst case scenario...
in business-communication top posting and TOFU is normally because with TOFU you need only the last mail of a conversation and with the top-posting you need not to scroll and see the whole answer in the preview after select a message
Business communications are typically private, and not archived for public visibility and reference on the web, as mailing lists are. When I do an archive search for some previous topic, it is very annoying to read the thread upside-down. In addition, business communications are mainly done between two parties, unlike mailing list threads which typically have multiple participants and subthreads, where top-posting quotation of content is worse than useless.
Some time ago I proposed to create a mail filter, top2bottom, which would reshuffle message text into top/bottom-posting style, as desired by the user. I even wrote some proof-of-concept C code which does that. Unfortunately, it didn't get much traction, and also I didn't have enough time to work on it more seriously.
Maybe one day I'll sit down and do it properly, and hopefully it will help eliminate these kind of discussions from mailing lists altogether. ;-)
Best, :-) Marko
On Sun, 2011-11-27 at 22:24 +0530, Rahul Sundaram wrote:
User interface research is what I suggested. Not surveys. I don't really think this list is a reasonable sample. Mailing list tends to attract a specific type of audience. You have to be knowledgeable enough to subscribe and follow the list and be interested enough to participate regularly. You can compare and contrast this to say even a forum to know the difference.
And then there's the point of view that it's a community project, and this is the forum for that community, and *significant* numbers of this community are saying that it sucks. Yet we're being told we're wrong, it doesn't suck, by a few with their fingers in their ears.
la la la la la la la I can't hear you saying it sucks, la la la la...
It's unstable. No it isn't.
The interface is a bastard. No it isn't.
It's too CPU intensive. No it isn't.
Yes it is. No it isn't.
I can do anything better than you can, I can do anything better than you No you can't Yes I can No you can't Yes I can.
On Sun, 2011-11-27 at 11:41 -0800, Antonio Olivares wrote:
Developers have already made up their minds and released their new innovations, and "not" what the research is asking for. You want to look at new small screens like tablets, phones and other small stuff and replace the traditional desktop with that.
I just don't get why there's that push in that direction. The Fedora releases are geared to real computers. It's not an iPhone install ISO that we download, it's a >486 personal computer install ISO.
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On 11/27/2011 05:13 PM, Tim wrote:
And then there's the point of view that it's a community project, and this is the forum for that community, and *significant* numbers of this community are saying that it sucks. Yet we're being told we're wrong, it doesn't suck, by a few with their fingers in their ears.
la la la la la la la I can't hear you saying it sucks, la la la la...
It's unstable. No it isn't.
The interface is a bastard. No it isn't.
It's too CPU intensive. No it isn't.
Yes it is. No it isn't.
I can do anything better than you can, I can do anything better than you No you can't Yes I can No you can't Yes I can.
Very childish. If you want it to change, you have to say more then "it sucks". Saying it is different from what you are used to using is not going to cut it either.
Now, if you say it is lacking some features, and are specific, that will help. If you file a feature request, that will help more. But if you really want to make sure you get the feature you want, submit a patch that implements it.
Remember, the developers are going to work on what interests them, and/or what they use. So if there isn't a developer interested in the feature you want, you may end up having to pay someone to write the code.
At least you have options on making a change. On closed source software, you only have the option of complaining, and unless you are a large user, they are not going to listen.
Mikkel - --
Do not meddle in the affairs of dragons, for thou art crunchy and taste good with Ketchup!
For survey data there is the Phoronix Gnome survey. That actually has a lot of quite interesting comments from people who've taken it.
In many ways the comments are more valuable than the percentages as it's not a random 'mug people for data' type survey so somewhat self selecting. I also don't think the data supports the 'everyone hates Gnome 3' position either. Some people are clearly very fond of it.
The other interesting data set is the rise of Linux Mint, although personally I'm very dubious about tying that to their Gnome 3 "fixed up" mode - which is anyway something Fedora could now equally package.
Alan
On 11/27/2011 01:00 PM, Reindl Harald wrote:
Am 27.11.2011 19:32, schrieb Maurizio Marini:
A. Because people read from top to bottom. Q. Why should I not top post? A: Because it messes up the order in which people normally read text. Q: Why is top-posting such a bad thing? A: Top-posting. Q: What is the most annoying thing in e-mail?
but only in mailing-lists and there only because not all are doing this
yes i and peopole are reading from top to bottom and if i follow a conversation i normally know the postings before so i need only to read the answers
with top-posting i would not have to scroll or ONLY if i have not read the messages before and even if i do not know the whole thread i must only ONE TIME scroll down and read from bottom to top, but only once
so the only real problem is that so many people do not top-posting and that they which do not realize if the thread was with answers below the question and suddenly start mixing what is really bad because you have a question and some answers below and some in top of
in business-communication top posting and TOFU is normally because with TOFU you need only the last mail of a conversation and with the top-posting you need not to scroll and see the whole answer in the preview after select a message
so this is all a point of view
Well, considering that top posting is strongly discourages in the list guidelines, I would consider it more then a point of view. Different lists have different guidelines, and it is only polite to follow the list guidelines.
Mikkel
On Monday 28 November 2011 09:43:05 Tim wrote:
On Sun, 2011-11-27 at 11:41 -0800, Antonio Olivares wrote:
Developers have already made up their minds and released their new innovations, and "not" what the research is asking for. You want to look at new small screens like tablets, phones and other small stuff and replace the traditional desktop with that.
I just don't get why there's that push in that direction. The Fedora releases are geared to real computers. It's not an iPhone install ISO that we download, it's a >486 personal computer install ISO.
Fedora is just serving the users with what is produced by upstream Gnome. And there appears to be no Gnome desktop that is alternative to Gnome3 (and please don't mention Unity...).
IMHO, the real question is why doesn't Fedora reevaluate its position on the choice of the default DE for the distribution. Gnome3 should be available, for people that want it. But why by default?
I don't want to advertize KDE too much, but there are also XFCE and LXDE which are gaining popularity as drop-in replacements for the old Gnome2. Why wouldn't XFCE be the default DE for the distro for a while? Or the default DE choice could "rotate" for each release --- XFCE for F17, LXDE for F18, KDE for F19, Gnome3 for F20, and over again, in turns. That way each DE would have equal amount of "visibility" among users, more bugs would get fixed, etc.
Best, :-) Marko
On Mon, Nov 28, 2011 at 00:57, Marko Vojinovic vvmarko@gmail.com wrote:
Or the default DE choice could "rotate" for each release --- XFCE for F17, LXDE for F18, KDE for F19, Gnome3 for F20, and over again, in turns. That way each DE would have equal amount of "visibility" among users, more bugs would get fixed, etc.
This is actually a very nice idea. And I believe it fits in with the goals of Fedora, forwarding the progress of FOSS. After all Gnome is not the only FOSS desktop, by far. Maybe you can suggest this on the desktop list? (is that the appropriate list?)
On 2011/11/27 15:42, Mikkel L. Ellertson wrote:
On 11/27/2011 01:00 PM, Reindl Harald wrote:
Am 27.11.2011 19:32, schrieb Maurizio Marini:
A. Because people read from top to bottom. Q. Why should I not top post? A: Because it messes up the order in which people normally read text. Q: Why is top-posting such a bad thing? A: Top-posting. Q: What is the most annoying thing in e-mail?
but only in mailing-lists and there only because not all are doing this
yes i and peopole are reading from top to bottom and if i follow a conversation i normally know the postings before so i need only to read the answers
with top-posting i would not have to scroll or ONLY if i have not read the messages before and even if i do not know the whole thread i must only ONE TIME scroll down and read from bottom to top, but only once
so the only real problem is that so many people do not top-posting and that they which do not realize if the thread was with answers below the question and suddenly start mixing what is really bad because you have a question and some answers below and some in top of
in business-communication top posting and TOFU is normally because with TOFU you need only the last mail of a conversation and with the top-posting you need not to scroll and see the whole answer in the preview after select a message
so this is all a point of view
Well, considering that top posting | But side posting is more fun is strongly discourages in the | and by far a more interesting list guidelines, I would consider | challenge, isn't it? it more then a point of view. | Different lists have different | {O,o} Ack! Pblpbltlt! guidelines, and it is only polite to | follow the list guidelines. |
Mikkel
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On 11/27/2011 06:28 PM, jdow wrote:
On 2011/11/27 15:42, Mikkel L. Ellertson wrote:
Well, considering that top posting | But side posting is more fun is strongly discourages in the | and by far a more interesting list guidelines, I would consider | challenge, isn't it? it more then a point of view. | Different lists have different | {O,o} Ack! Pblpbltlt! guidelines, and it is only polite to | follow the list guidelines. |
Mikkel
Well, my mail client does not do side posting well. I need one that does columns. That way, both parts of the conversation would be formatted nicely.
If I really wanted to side post, I guess I could work on a Thunderbird plugin that supported it.
I am glad you are still around to brighten up my day.
Mikkel - -- I haven't lost my mind. It's around here...somewhere.
| But side posting is more fun = It | and by far a more interesting = certainly | challenge, isn't it? = is | = more | {O,o} Ack! = challenging
-- = with
= different = mailers = and = you c a n' t p l e a s e e v e r y o n e
R e g a r d s,
_ _ _ / \ _ __ | |_ ___ _ __ (_) ___ / _ \ | '_ | __/ _ | '_ | |/ _ \ / ___ | | | | || (_) | | | | | (_) | /_/ __| |_|_____/|_| |_|_|___/
On 11/27/2011 07:09 PM, suvayu ali wrote:
On Mon, Nov 28, 2011 at 00:57, Marko Vojinovic vvmarko@gmail.com wrote:
Or the default DE choice could "rotate" for each release --- XFCE for F17, LXDE for F18, KDE for F19, Gnome3 for F20, and over again, in turns. That way each DE would have equal amount of "visibility" among users, more bugs would get fixed, etc.
This is actually a very nice idea. And I believe it fits in with the goals of Fedora, forwarding the progress of FOSS. After all Gnome is not the only FOSS desktop, by far. Maybe you can suggest this on the desktop list? (is that the appropriate list?)
Be aware that a significant number of gnome devs are @ RH ... not sure what the politics is but the gap between upstream and fedora is not as great as may appear sometimes - much like systemd ... and previous calls to re-consider the default DE have met with rather a lot of silence so far ... or suggestions to file bugs, contribute patches or perhaps even become a gnome dev. Not once that I recall has the response been sure - lets make KDE the default DE ...
That saod. I'd be delighted, albeit surprised, if any progress was made on this front.
On 11/28/2011 01:11 AM, Antonio Olivares wrote:
You have to be kidding! "research"? On a 6-month release early release often desktop? If you do research, then what influence will the research have? Developers have already made up their minds and released their new innovations, and "not" what the research is asking for. You want to look at new small screens like tablets, phones and other small stuff and replace the traditional desktop with that. Each thing should have their own interfaces and not make a "One for all" desktop, which is what appears to be happening at this point.
I was talking about GNOME doing research. Not Fedora and developers can be influenced as has been shown repeatedly when such results were published in the past
"non technical users fully new to the user interface"
What do you mean? Do you mean converts? The current users would inspire others to use Desktops on Operating systems and not new users to a new interface!
Is this "new interface" a tablet and not a traditional desktop?
Yes and no. There are some workflow differences. No desktop icons, overview mode etc and GNOME will have to find out how well it works.
Rahul
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On 11/28/2011 04:43 AM, Tim wrote:
On Sun, 2011-11-27 at 22:24 +0530, Rahul Sundaram wrote:
User interface research is what I suggested. Not surveys. I don't really think this list is a reasonable sample. Mailing list tends to attract a specific type of audience. You have to be knowledgeable enough to subscribe and follow the list and be interested enough to participate regularly. You can compare and contrast this to say even a forum to know the difference.
And then there's the point of view that it's a community project, and this is the forum for that community,
This isn't the only forum and yes, it is a community project as much as anyone can step up and contribute. This isn't a forum to rant about how much KDE 4 or GNOME 3 is bad. That yields zero benefits. Nobody should be pretending otherwise.
Rahul
On Sun, 2011-11-27 at 20:00 +0100, Reindl Harald wrote:
Am 27.11.2011 19:32, schrieb Maurizio Marini:
On Sun, 27 Nov 2011 17:13:53 +0000 Frank Murphy frankly3d@gmail.com wrote:
That's what top-posting brings. (Not JZ) Let's see the rant's now.
A. Because people read from top to bottom. Q. Why should I not top post? A: Because it messes up the order in which people normally read text. Q: Why is top-posting such a bad thing? A: Top-posting. Q: What is the most annoying thing in e-mail?
but only in mailing-lists and there only because not all are doing this
yes i and peopole are reading from top to bottom and if i follow a conversation i normally know the postings before so i need only to read the answers
with top-posting i would not have to scroll or ONLY if i have not read the messages before and even if i do not know the whole thread i must only ONE TIME scroll down and read from bottom to top, but only once
so the only real problem is that so many people do not top-posting and that they which do not realize if the thread was with answers below the question and suddenly start mixing what is really bad because you have a question and some answers below and some in top of
in business-communication top posting and TOFU is normally because with TOFU you need only the last mail of a conversation and with the top-posting you need not to scroll and see the whole answer in the preview after select a message
so this is all a point of view
But business email is not normally archived for later use. It is essentially one time communications with a few exceptions. And this difference is essential between a mailing list and simple email exchanges. Just my 2 cents worth, and that ain't much these days.
On 27 November 2011 23:24, Mikkel L. Ellertson mellertson@gmail.com wrote:
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On 11/27/2011 05:13 PM, Tim wrote:
And then there's the point of view that it's a community project, and this is the forum for that community, and *significant* numbers of this community are saying that it sucks. Yet we're being told we're wrong, it doesn't suck, by a few with their fingers in their ears.
Very childish. If you want it to change, you have to say more then "it sucks". Saying it is different from what you are used to using is not going to cut it either.
Now, if you say it is lacking some features, and are specific, that will help. If you file a feature request, that will help more. But if you really want to make sure you get the feature you want, submit a patch that implements it.
Except Gnome 3 is a fairly radical change. Why is all the burden of proof on people who think there are flaws in it? If I want to get a power off button in the system menu is it just a case of submitting a patch that adds it? Are there really Gnome devs scratching their heads thinking, "That's a great idea, but I just can't see how to do it?" No, there's someone thinking, These morons don't understand the genius of my design." Or the overview which is really nothing more than eye candy that was probably cool to write, but actually is less useful than Compiz's cube which /looked/ like eye candy, but actually added something useful (like drag and drop between workspaces).
Sticking with it for the minute as I remember the Spatial era and hope that usability arguments eventually filter through. However I don't see any real improvement in that direction going from 3.0 to 3.2.
-- imalone
On Mon, 28 Nov 2011 00:12:14 -0800 les hlhowell@pacbell.net wrote: I love this mlist more and more! all started with Fedora - time to blink and now we are behind this "querelle" that is older than internet ;) you are amazing, guys :)
On 28/11/11 02:41, Genes MailLists wrote: <snipped>
Be aware that a significant number of gnome devs are @ RH ... notsure what the politics is but the gap between upstream and fedora is not as great as may appear sometimes
How would enterprise users find Gnome? Will sales of screen-cleaner soar?
Dasm, dropped me crystal balls..
Tim <ignored_mailbox <at> yahoo.com.au> writes:
On Sun, 2011-11-27 at 22:24 +0530, Rahul Sundaram wrote:
User interface research is what I suggested. Not surveys. I don't really think this list is a reasonable sample. Mailing list tends to attract a specific type of audience. You have to be knowledgeable enough to subscribe and follow the list and be interested enough to participate regularly. You can compare and contrast this to say even a forum to know the difference.
And then there's the point of view that it's a community project, and this is the forum for that community, and *significant* numbers of this community are saying that it sucks. Yet we're being told we're wrong, it doesn't suck, by a few with their fingers in their ears. ...
Exactly.
Yes, the topic of the thread is still alive ...
Users and Testers, this is time of awakening and "Fedora Spring" !
Demand accountability from, and representation on, Fedora's governing bodies. If that means reconstitution of the project, so be it, if it will serve you well.
Stop the hemorrhaging of this distro. Restore meaning to "OS product" (as opposite to a "test system OS"). Say "yes" to UNIX (it is your friend), features that enhance (evolve) what is already there, embrace stability as a goal.
Avanti !
But I am actually not here ... JB
Opera "Andrea Chénier" by Umberto Giordano. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RgSB34QfKiw
Am 28.11.2011 09:12, schrieb les:
On Sun, 2011-11-27 at 20:00 +0100, Reindl Harald wrote:
in business-communication top posting and TOFU is normally because with TOFU you need only the last mail of a conversation and with the top-posting you need not to scroll and see the whole answer in the preview after select a message
so this is all a point of view
But business email is not normally archived for later use. It is essentially one time communications with a few exceptions. And this difference is essential between a mailing list and simple email exchanges. Just my 2 cents worth, and that ain't much these days
where do you work that you are allowed to delete business-communication? :-)
Also consider that with several contributors commenting on the same post it gets boring scrolling down each one through the same information Roger
in business-communication top posting and TOFU is normally because with TOFU you need only the last mail of a conversation and with the top-posting you need not to scroll and see the whole answer in the preview after select a message
so this is all a point of view
But business email is not normally archived for later use. It is essentially one time communications with a few exceptions. And this difference is essential between a mailing list and simple email exchanges. Just my 2 cents worth, and that ain't much these days
where do you work that you are allowed to delete business-communication? :-)
On Mon, 2011-11-28 at 21:49 +1100, Roger wrote:
Also consider that with several contributors commenting on the same post it gets boring scrolling down each one through the same information
It gets even more boring when posters can't be bothered to trim the stuff they're quoting. If quotes were limited to only material being directly commented on, the scrolling issue would mostly go away.
Two additional comments on this meme:
1) Business mail top-posts and quotes everything because that's the way Outlook works and to a significant percentage of business users "Outlook"and "Email" are synonyms. The single advantage to doing it this way is that you can shovel over an entire conversation to a co-worker in one Forward, and they get to see the whole context. Of course a properly managed archiving system wouldn't need that, but then you'd have to have competent system administrators, which apparently is too much to ask.
2) This list, and others under the Fedora banner, has a set of Guidelines, referenced in the footer of *every single message*. How many list members have read them? How many have noticed http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Mailing_list_guidelines#If_You_Are_Replying_to... where it says:
Place each part of your reply after the text it addresses (i.e., NO Top-Posting, please see "Wikipedia - Top Posting" and links therein for more on this).
Now of course these are stated as "guidelines", because no-one is going to ban you from the list except in extreme cases, but they still have the backing of this community. When someone decides to ignore them, it says a lot about what they think of the rest of us (and for my part that plays a part in determining whether I want to help them with their problem.) If people think the Guidelines need updating, make a proposal to change them and we can discuss it, don't just pretend they don't exist.
poc
Am 28.11.2011 12:47, schrieb Patrick O'Callaghan:
- Business mail top-posts and quotes everything because that's the way
Outlook works and to a significant percentage of business users "Outlook"and "Email" are synonyms. The single advantage to doing it this way is that you can shovel over an entire conversation to a co-worker in one Forward, and they get to see the whole context. Of course a properly managed archiving system wouldn't need that, but then you'd have to have competent system administrators, which apparently is too much to ask.
it may be off-topic but "you'd have to have competent system administrators" is somehow arrogant - do YOU pay the hardware/configuration/adminstration of a archiving system which is NOT needed?
even if you have one - you will grant access to partners involved in your business communication? you won't and you must not!
On Sun, 2011-11-27 at 17:24 -0600, Mikkel L. Ellertson wrote:
Very childish.
That was the point. I am mocking the behaviour of the deniers, which has been far from satisfactory.
If you want it to change, you have to say more then "it sucks".
People HAVE been doing that. But keep getting shot down, because they're not allowed to criticise Gnome, nor do it here.
Saying it is different from what you are used to using is not going to cut it either.
I don't agree with that, at all. Not what you're used to / not what you want to be. It's the same thing, from our point of view. And the latter, is what developers have got to stop denying.
On Mon, 2011-11-28 at 09:31 +0530, Rahul Sundaram wrote:
I was talking about GNOME doing research. Not Fedora and developers can be influenced as has been shown repeatedly when such results were published in the past
And the response will be; these aren't the results that we want to hear.
On Mon, 2011-11-28 at 21:49 +1100, Roger wrote:
Also consider that with several contributors commenting on the same post it gets boring scrolling down each one through the same information Roger
That's why you edit. Whatever posting style you use, you need to edit. You can't keep every single prior post in a thread in the message. Sure, that works for three emails going back and forth on a business deal, it doesn't for hundreds of emails, with very long threads, on a list server.
On Sun, 2011-11-27 at 23:57 +0000, Marko Vojinovic wrote:
I don't want to advertize KDE too much, but there are also XFCE and LXDE which are gaining popularity as drop-in replacements for the old Gnome2. Why wouldn't XFCE be the default DE for the distro for a while? Or the default DE choice could "rotate" for each release --- XFCE for F17, LXDE for F18, KDE for F19, Gnome3 for F20, and over again, in turns.
There's merit in that. Popularity for KDE and Gnome is falling, so they should get less precedence. The alternatives do need more attention, and this is one way to work on it.
Sorry POC for inserting here.....
I just want to congratulate all the participants in this thread and resulting tangents. You've manged to hit at least 3 most often recurring themes.
<sarcasm>
A. GNOME 3 is the most hated desktop since the introduction of KDE 4.
B. Licensing in Fedora. Or: Why can't Fedora be more like Ubuntu?
C. Mailing list guidelines. Or: Guidelines, they're for other people.
</sarcasm>
On 11/28/2011 07:30 AM, Alan Cox wrote:
The other interesting data set is the rise of Linux Mint, although personally I'm very dubious about tying that to their Gnome 3 "fixed up" mode - which is anyway something Fedora could now equally package.
Mint seems to produce very polished, well integrated desktops and I think that really appeals, especially to those new to Linux. I think that used to be true of Ubuntu.
On Monday 28 November 2011 20:03:02 Ed Greshko wrote:
Sorry POC for inserting here.....
I just want to congratulate all the participants in this thread and resulting tangents. You've manged to hit at least 3 most often recurring themes.
<sarcasm>
A. GNOME 3 is the most hated desktop since the introduction of KDE 4.
B. Licensing in Fedora. Or: Why can't Fedora be more like Ubuntu?
C. Mailing list guidelines. Or: Guidelines, they're for other people.
</sarcasm>
The only thing missing is the confirmation of the Godwin's law. :-D
Best, :-) Marko
On Mon, Nov 28, 2011 at 4:43 PM, Frank Murphy frankly3d@gmail.com wrote:
On 28/11/11 02:41, Genes MailLists wrote:
<snipped> > > Be aware that a significant number of gnome devs are @ RH ... not > sure what the politics is but the gap between upstream and fedora is not > as great as may appear sometimes
How would enterprise users find Gnome? Will sales of screen-cleaner soar?
Dasm, dropped me crystal balls..
-- Regards,
Frank Murphy]
Would a palantir help? But it seems to me that a palantir could not help under the present circumstances (at least of the ti,e of the narrative of LOTR...just caused more harm then good...)
Oops, sorry, my 2 cents worth,
Fennix
On Mon, Nov 28, 2011 at 4:43 PM, Frank Murphy frankly3d@gmail.com wrote:
On 28/11/11 02:41, Genes MailLists wrote:
<snipped> > > Be aware that a significant number of gnome devs are @ RH ... not > sure what the politics is but the gap between upstream and fedora is not > as great as may appear sometimes
How would enterprise users find Gnome? Will sales of screen-cleaner soar?
Dasm, dropped me crystal balls..
-- Regards,
Frank Murphy]
Would a palantir help? But it seems to me that a palantir could not help under the present circumstances (at least of the ti,e of the narrative of LOTR...just caused more harm then good...)
Oops, sorry, my 2 cents worth,
Fennix
Sorry POC for inserting here.....
I just want to congratulate all the participants in this thread and resulting tangents. You've manged to hit at least 3 most often recurring themes.
I realize nothing can be done about the meta "Guidelines" thrash, but you know, some would say that if something keeps cropping up, over and over, you might want to ... I don't know ... fix it! Or at least acknowledge that these are problems, and come up with a plan to deal with them, whether it be political (licensing, patent-coverage, etc), or technical ( issues with gnome3, issues with fonts, issues with multimedia, etc).
The reason people bring up Ubuntu, and Linux Mint is that these distributions show that Linux Desktop usability is possible. They've come up with ways to fix the problems. All Fedora seems to come up with is excuses.
Matt
<sarcasm>
A. GNOME 3 is the most hated desktop since the introduction of KDE 4.
B. Licensing in Fedora. Or: Why can't Fedora be more like Ubuntu?
C. Mailing list guidelines. Or: Guidelines, they're for other people.
</sarcasm> -- users mailing list users@lists.fedoraproject.org To unsubscribe or change subscription options: https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/users Guidelines: http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Mailing_list_guidelines Have a question? Ask away: http://ask.fedoraproject.org
Just correcting the typo in the subject line....
On 11/28/2011 05:28 PM, Tim wrote:
On Mon, 2011-11-28 at 09:31 +0530, Rahul Sundaram wrote:
I was talking about GNOME doing research. Not Fedora and developers can be influenced as has been shown repeatedly when such results were published in the past
And the response will be; these aren't the results that we want to hear.
That hasn't been the case for the research that say Sun did.
Rahul
On 11/28/2011 05:30 AM, Marko Vojinovic wrote:
The only thing missing is the confirmation of the Godwin's law. :-D
Well, the number of people hating Gnome proves that Ugol's Law still works. Now, all we need is an example of Cole's Law.
On 11/28/2011 01:49 PM, Joe Zeff wrote:
On 11/28/2011 05:30 AM, Marko Vojinovic wrote:
The only thing missing is the confirmation of the Godwin's law. :-D
Well, the number of people hating Gnome proves that Ugol's Law still works. Now, all we need is an example of Cole's Law
Well, I'm sure that some folks are of the opinion that the GNOME developers attitudes and responses to user concerns are pretty fascist.
:-)
On 11/28/2011 10:58 AM, G.Wolfe Woodbury wrote:
Well, I'm sure that some folks are of the opinion that the GNOME developers attitudes and responses to user concerns are pretty fascist.
Only those who use the term as a generic insult and haven't the slightest idea what it means.
On Mon, 2011-11-28 at 11:15 +0100, Reindl Harald wrote:
Am 28.11.2011 09:12, schrieb les:
On Sun, 2011-11-27 at 20:00 +0100, Reindl Harald wrote:
in business-communication top posting and TOFU is normally because with TOFU you need only the last mail of a conversation and with the top-posting you need not to scroll and see the whole answer in the preview after select a message
so this is all a point of view
But business email is not normally archived for later use. It is essentially one time communications with a few exceptions. And this difference is essential between a mailing list and simple email exchanges. Just my 2 cents worth, and that ain't much these days
where do you work that you are allowed to delete business-communication? :-)
Well, I'm retired now. But day to day communications about everything non product related, like submit this report, or check on customer x, and so on were deleted routinely. Today, not much is deleted, I know, from the central servers, but on the users local disk, a lot of the day-to-day communications is deleted routinely, and would only be looked at in some larger context, possibly legal, but even in that area, much of it is just the drivel of how work gets done. Sometimes it might lead some legal beagle to some smoking gun, but likely it is just noise.
Additionally the ability to archive huge amounts of communications is a relatively new capability. I retired in 2005, and disk space was still a bit of a premium, and I know there are limits even today. Many of my communications with customers contained files of encrypted and/or compressed data, and a single programs data files could easily exceed 5G for one version with generally multiple versions. The data was often transmitted in several files via EMAIL and sometimes through web portals with encryption and specific one way accounts.
I am sure those communications, which detailed the progress of programs and developments are archived somewhere and probably several somewheres.
But by and large, these things have a limited shelf life in the corporations usage, so the archives were typically TAPE, which was dated and stored off site. They were and probably are not designed like a mailing list archive for instantaneous retrieval and review. Nor in most cases is the historical linkage valuable to someone perusing the work for references. Likely they are interested in the end product for reproduction or reuse. Which is not the same type of use as a mailing list.
Regards, Les H
On 11/29/2011 12:35 AM, Matt Rose wrote:
Sorry POC for inserting here.....
I just want to congratulate all the participants in this thread and resulting tangents. You've manged to hit at least 3 most often recurring themes.
I realize nothing can be done about the meta "Guidelines" thrash, but you know, some would say that if something keeps cropping up, over and over, you might want to ... I don't know ... fix it! Or at least acknowledge that these are problems, and come up with a plan to deal with them, whether it be political (licensing, patent-coverage, etc), or technical ( issues with gnome3, issues with fonts, issues with multimedia, etc).
<sarcasm>
Ah, yes.....
D. Everybody knows X, Y, or Z is *Completely* and *Utterly" broken and we keep bringing it up on this mailing list...but *nobody* does *anything*. Or: Why I can't be bothered with filing bugzillas or joining/forming a team to "improve" the situation.
</sarcasm>
The reason people bring up Ubuntu, and Linux Mint is that these distributions show that Linux Desktop usability is possible. They've come up with ways to fix the problems. All Fedora seems to come up with is excuses.
FYI, there is an "E" in there....but it may result in pulling me into the endless food fight that I feel is counterproductive at this point.
Matt
<sarcasm>
A. GNOME 3 is the most hated desktop since the introduction of KDE 4.
B. Licensing in Fedora. Or: Why can't Fedora be more like Ubuntu?
C. Mailing list guidelines. Or: Guidelines, they're for other people.
</sarcasm> -- users mailing list users@lists.fedoraproject.org To unsubscribe or change subscription options: https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/users Guidelines: http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Mailing_list_guidelines Have a question? Ask away: http://ask.fedoraproject.org
On 11/28/2011 02:08 PM, Joe Zeff wrote:
On 11/28/2011 10:58 AM, G.Wolfe Woodbury wrote:
Well, I'm sure that some folks are of the opinion that the GNOME developers attitudes and responses to user concerns are pretty fascist.
Only those who use the term as a generic insult and haven't the slightest idea what it means.
In this case it's misused as a substitute for oligarchy.
The imposition of GNOME3 is being imposed from a small group of key folks despite the vociferous complaints. The developers don't owe users anything (except the respect due to every person) but perhaps they just might want to understand that the features they have introduced may not survive the selection process that is called "user adoption". The symbiotic relationship is being strained and some of the complaints are more than just whining about change.
Personally, I've adapted to GNOME3 about as much as I feel comfortable in doing. I'm studying other DEs and distros to see if they match my needs more than the current Fedora direction. This is exactly what the evolution of software systems says is going to happen. The question is will Fedora survive as currently conceived?
As for the term "fascist" it was originally an attempt to light-heartedly point to Godwin's Law conjecture, but I may just let it stand given the public and not-so-public debate and resulting statements that have been made.
Just to add that laptop has iwl3945 wireless card; iwl3945 module has had since 29 Apr https://lkml.org/lkml/2011/4/29/275 hardware scanning disabled due to Microcode SW errors; software scanning turns the connection into a patience tester. That didn't help the review, certainly. All network related issues may have been caused by it, since TCP connections do seem to hang randomly with software scanning on that card.
I've been doing some experiments trying to fix the Microcode SW errors which so far point that the card is unable to use these frequencies when scanning passively [the kind of hardware scan which triggers the error] (5250.000 - 5330.000 @ 40.000), (N/A, 20.00) (5490.000 - 5710.000 @ 40.000), (N/A, 27.00)
Anyway, tough luck, the guy used an unsupported (by Intel) wireless card which probably borked lots of things in the test (since the problem is in the closed-binary-firmware, it's impossible to fix, only to workaround at driver level).
On Wed, Nov 23, 2011 at 9:57 AM, JB jb.1234abcd@gmail.com wrote:
After RH and Fedora statistics, some more results:
http://www.dedoimedo.com/computers/fedora-16.html
The purpose of a distro project is to deliver a product (not to maintain a test system OS), with implied quality, and for a user.
It is time to blink.
JB
-- users mailing list users@lists.fedoraproject.org To unsubscribe or change subscription options: https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/users Guidelines: http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Mailing_list_guidelines
On Wed, Nov 30, 2011 at 11:00 PM, Patrick O'Callaghan pocallaghan@gmail.com wrote:
On Wed, 2011-11-30 at 19:25 +0000, Pedro Francisco wrote:
Just to add that laptop has iwl3945 wireless card; iwl3945 module has had
Wrong thread I think (not to mention the top-posting).
Thanks for the top-posting tip.
Right thread though, he bashed things related to networking. He mentioned he's using a T60p to test Fedora 16 so since T60p has an Intel Wireless 3945 his wireless network performance is going to be awful. That alone is sufficient to ruin a review.
On Wed, 2011-11-30 at 23:09 +0000, Pedro Francisco wrote:
Right thread though,
May be (as few of us can remember the origins of this thread), but you've replied at the wrong point. By this time the conversation has changed, and your reply has nothing to do with the message that you've replied to. And that's what replies should be (one message in reply to another *particular* message). You need to go further back, and make your reply to the right place. It's the only way that it'll make any sense to anybody reading it.
At Wed, 30 Nov 2011 23:09:07 +0000, Pedro Francisco wrote:
On Wed, Nov 30, 2011 at 11:00 PM, Patrick O'Callaghan pocallaghan@gmail.com wrote:
On Wed, 2011-11-30 at 19:25 +0000, Pedro Francisco wrote:
Just to add that laptop has iwl3945 wireless card; iwl3945 module has had
Wrong thread I think (not to mention the top-posting).
Thanks for the top-posting tip.
Right thread though, he bashed things related to networking. He mentioned he's using a T60p to test Fedora 16 so since T60p has an Intel Wireless 3945 his wireless network performance is going to be awful. That alone is sufficient to ruin a review.
Indeed, the performance with current iwl3945 is unsatisfactory to say the least. I've filed a bug report here: https://bugzilla.redhat.com/show_bug.cgi?id=753299 as the link throughput was stuck at 100kBps. Apparently enabling hardware scanning helps. However, once enabled, there will be occasional lockups due to scanning, which can be prevented by hardcoding AP SSID in the wireless settings. So yeah, more and more things start to suck over time (not mentioning terrible 2D graphics performance, deteriorating with each release since KMS/Gallium inception).
-- Maciek Borzecki
On Wed, Nov 30, 2011 at 11:49 PM, Tim ignored_mailbox@yahoo.com.au wrote:
On Wed, 2011-11-30 at 23:09 +0000, Pedro Francisco wrote:
Right thread though,
May be (as few of us can remember the origins of this thread), but you've replied at the wrong point. By this time the conversation has changed, and your reply has nothing to do with the message that you've replied to. And that's what replies should be (one message in reply to another *particular* message). You need to go further back, and make your reply to the right place. It's the only way that it'll make any sense to anybody reading it.
I'm not following your point. I replied to the first message, the one which started the thread.
I did make a mistake and top-posted, which damaged the context but if you are reading the mailing list on Thunderbird or some other mail client which supports threaded view, you'll see I replied to the right message.
You can argue that to those who read in Gmail and such the message will appear at the bottom. That is a valid point but I can't do anything about it besides bottom-posting to keep the context.
I saw a bad review, quickly scanned the thread to see if anyone else had seen a pattern on what was working badly (networking related) and decided to add my information, namely the peripheral possibly responsible and a possible solution which I'm occasionaly working on.
There was no other solution for me to do what I did, except to avoid the top-posting which indeed was an error on my part.
On Thu, Dec 1, 2011 at 8:21 AM, Maciek Borzecki maciek.borzecki@gmail.com wrote:
At Wed, 30 Nov 2011 23:09:07 +0000, Pedro Francisco wrote:
On Wed, Nov 30, 2011 at 11:00 PM, Patrick O'Callaghan pocallaghan@gmail.com wrote:
On Wed, 2011-11-30 at 19:25 +0000, Pedro Francisco wrote:
Just to add that laptop has iwl3945 wireless card; iwl3945 module has had
-snip
Right thread though, he bashed things related to networking. He mentioned he's using a T60p to test Fedora 16 so since T60p has an Intel Wireless 3945 his wireless network performance is going to be awful. That alone is sufficient to ruin a review.
Indeed, the performance with current iwl3945 is unsatisfactory to say the least. I've filed a bug report here: https://bugzilla.redhat.com/show_bug.cgi?id=753299 as the link throughput was stuck at 100kBps. Apparently enabling hardware scanning helps. However, once enabled, there will be occasional lockups due to scanning, which can be prevented by hardcoding AP SSID in the wireless settings. So yeah, more and more things start to suck over time (not mentioning terrible 2D graphics performance, deteriorating with each release since KMS/Gallium inception).
You can do that or you can limit the frequencies your iwl3945 connects to, which I did by telling the regulatory daemon only part of the frequencies were allowed on my country. So now I've full 802.11bg and partial 802.11a support, HW scanning and no firmware errors :)
P.S.: have you tried disabling sw_crypto as well to see if anything else changes?
On 1 December 2011 13:02, Pedro Francisco pedrogfrancisco@gmail.com wrote:
On Wed, Nov 30, 2011 at 11:49 PM, Tim ignored_mailbox@yahoo.com.au wrote:
On Wed, 2011-11-30 at 23:09 +0000, Pedro Francisco wrote:
Right thread though,
May be (as few of us can remember the origins of this thread), but you've replied at the wrong point. By this time the conversation has changed, and your reply has nothing to do with the message that you've replied to. And that's what replies should be (one message in reply to another *particular* message). You need to go further back, and make your reply to the right place. It's the only way that it'll make any sense to anybody reading it.
I'm not following your point. I replied to the first message, the one which started the thread.
I saw a bad review, quickly scanned the thread to see if anyone else had seen a pattern on what was working badly (networking related) and decided to add my information, namely the peripheral possibly responsible and a possible solution which I'm occasionaly working on.
Indeed, it's been so long since the thread started and the original post was only worth such a cursory glance that most people have probably forgotten this was a detail in the review (I know I had).
Just thought I'd chime in that my laptop is still happily using iwl3945 in F16 without noticeable connection problems. (Yes, it's faster if I connect it via ethernet, but I've always expected that.) Thanks if you're actually working on improving support for this chipset.
On Thu, Dec 1, 2011 at 2:29 PM, Ian Malone ibmalone@gmail.com wrote: -snip
Just thought I'd chime in that my laptop is still happily using iwl3945 in F16 without noticeable connection problems. (Yes, it's faster if I connect it via ethernet, but I've always expected that.) Thanks if you're actually working on improving support for this chipset.
I'm just doing random tentative debugging :) For now, I've found out that my iwl3945 SW Microcode crashes when you, having disable_hw_scan = 0, do an "iw dev wlan0 scan passive" but not if you do an active scan.
I've also found out that if I limit the frequencies to channel 48 (you can check the frequencies you use by doing "iwlist f" ) no crash occurs. I don't know if I'll be able to code something at the driver --probably not -- but at least I can document the workaround to allow hardware scanning to be enabled.
In my case I believe the software scan messes the card performance; however after looking at some of the source code I believe there are at least two "different" cards called iwl3945 or, if to believe on PCI IDS differentiation, 4 or 5, so one card's issue may differ from another's.
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