6:02 p.m.
I have had it. There are just too many new ways to do things and
lots of Gnome changes and I'm about fed up. It's back to dear old FC4
where it all works well. I hope they fix the problems in FC5 for FC6
when it emerges.
Karl
7:50 p.m.
Karl Larsen wrote:
I have had it. There are just too many new ways to do things and
lots of Gnome changes and I'm about fed up. It's back to dear old FC4
where it all works well. I hope they fix the problems in FC5 for FC6
when it emerges.
Karl
I have to agree with you, except for me it's Red Hat Linux 9. For
something descended from Shrike, Fedora Core sure doesn't look or act
like it.
5:20 a.m.
On Wed, 2006-05-10 at 17:02 -0600, Karl Larsen wrote:
I have had it. There are just too many new ways to do things and
lots of Gnome changes and I'm about fed up. It's back to dear old FC4
where it all works well. I hope they fix the problems in FC5 for FC6
when it emerges.
Karl
Beside ranting in the ML, what have -you- done to improve things?
Gilboa
6:46 a.m.
Gilboa Davara wrote:
On Wed, 2006-05-10 at 17:02 -0600, Karl Larsen wrote:
> I have had it. There are just too many new ways to do things and
> lots of Gnome changes and I'm about fed up. It's back to dear old FC4
> where it all works well. I hope they fix the problems in FC5 for FC6
> when it emerges.
>
> Karl
>
>
Beside ranting in the ML, what have -you- done to improve things?
Gilboa
I'm not a programmer, I don't know exactly what is wrong and I'm
a
70 year old Electrical Engineer. I did not study computer engineering
because there were no computers then.
I upgraded to FC5 because it was claimed that it is better. But some
of my best "legacy" software in X-windows looks diffirent and does not
work well. I have written the person who wrote the software and he is
not interested in fixing the problem. It all works fine in FC4.
Karl
9:26 a.m.
On Thu, May 11, 2006 at 07:20:44AM -0500, Rex Dieter wrote:
Karl Larsen wrote:
> I upgraded to FC5 because it was claimed that it is
> better. But some of my best "legacy" software in X-windows looks
> diffirent and does not work well.
Without mentioning any details (what software? what problems?),
no-one can/will fix it.
I can't speak for Karl, but I've also noticed quite a few regressions
in FC5. In the past I've always thought that on balance, each release
of Fedora was better than the last, even if there are a few changes
that I wasn't fond of. FC5 is different.
- Lack of an "install everything" option requires maintaining a
list of all the stuff that has to be installed after completing
the initial installation, so that if I want to do another
install, or an install of FC6 I'll be able do do so quickly.
- The xorg radeon driver no longer works with two display heads.
Resolving this requires installing the evil kernel-tainting
proprietary ATI driver.
- The epiphany web broser requires dbus, and so is no longer a
network app, but one that can only be run from the local
console.
- The pwc (Phillips Web Camera) driver loads, but the output of
the Logitec web camera can't be displayed in either TVtime or
xawtv.
- gnome-screensaver is lame (too few hacks, unconfigurable) and
buggy (locks the screen at inappropriate times).
- The nautilus button-3 menu doesn't offer a terminal. The
nautilus-open-terminal package adds one, but it's in the middle
of the menu where it's less convenient, and it always opens the
terminal on display :0.0, even when used from another display.
9:40 a.m.
On Thu, May 11, 2006 at 07:20:44AM -0500, Rex Dieter wrote:
> Karl Larsen wrote:
>> I upgraded to FC5 because it was claimed that it is
>> better. But some of my best "legacy" software in X-windows looks
>> diffirent and does not work well.
> Without mentioning any details (what software? what problems?),
> no-one can/will fix it.
I can't speak for Karl, but I've also noticed quite a few regressions
in FC5. In the past I've always thought that on balance, each release
of Fedora was better than the last, even if there are a few changes
that I wasn't fond of. FC5 is different.
- Lack of an "install everything" option requires maintaining a
list of all the stuff that has to be installed after completing
the initial installation, so that if I want to do another
install, or an install of FC6 I'll be able do do so quickly.
- The xorg radeon driver no longer works with two display heads.
Resolving this requires installing the evil kernel-tainting
proprietary ATI driver.
- The epiphany web broser requires dbus, and so is no longer a
network app, but one that can only be run from the local
console.
- The pwc (Phillips Web Camera) driver loads, but the output of
the Logitec web camera can't be displayed in either TVtime or
xawtv.
- gnome-screensaver is lame (too few hacks, unconfigurable) and
buggy (locks the screen at inappropriate times).
- The nautilus button-3 menu doesn't offer a terminal. The
nautilus-open-terminal package adds one, but it's in the middle
of the menu where it's less convenient, and it always opens the
terminal on display :0.0, even when used from another display.
The optional session saving is also missing (tick to save the session
when logging out).
Lauri
4:10 a.m.
On 5/12/06, Lauri <lauri(a)ruja.ee> wrote:
The optional session saving is also missing (tick to save the
session
when logging out).
Yes, so it is. I just checked my session preferences and sure enough
it is ticked to ask me on log-out, but I don't get asked...
I am all for making things simple, but like many feel a lot has gone
to far in fc5 and the latest gnome...
If I wask the session manager to check when I log out if I want to
save the session then I think it's fair to say I know what tha means
and I should be given the choice. Simply ignoting a users preference
is wrong, why give us the choice if yuo already know we don't want to
save the session?
11 a.m.
On Fri, 2006-05-12 at 21:10 +1200, Rob Brown-Bayliss wrote:
On 5/12/06, Lauri <lauri(a)ruja.ee> wrote:
> The optional session saving is also missing (tick to save the session
> when logging out).
Yes, so it is. I just checked my session preferences and sure enough
it is ticked to ask me on log-out, but I don't get asked...
I am all for making things simple, but like many feel a lot has gone
to far in fc5 and the latest gnome...
If I wask the session manager to check when I log out if I want to
save the session then I think it's fair to say I know what tha means
and I should be given the choice. Simply ignoting a users preference
is wrong, why give us the choice if yuo already know we don't want to
save the session?
This is alot of the reason why I prefer KDE.
LX
--
°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°
Missiles of ligneous or osteal consistency have the
potential of fracturing osseous structure, but
appellations will eternally remain innocuous.
Registered Linux User #268899 http://counter.li.org/
°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°
9:55 a.m.
On Fri, 2006-05-12 at 21:10 +1200, Rob Brown-Bayliss wrote:
> On 5/12/06, Lauri <lauri(a)ruja.ee> wrote:
>
>> The optional session saving is also missing (tick to save the session
>> when logging out).
[--]
> If I wask the session manager to check when I log out if I want
to
> save the session then I think it's fair to say I know what tha means
> and I should be given the choice. Simply ignoting a users preference
> is wrong, why give us the choice if yuo already know we don't want to
> save the session?
>
There you can tick, if you are asked to confirm logging out.
But maybe you can just create a launcher to save the settings before
logging out?
Lauri
12:47 p.m.
On 5/12/06, Lyvim Xaphir <knightmerc(a)yahoo.com> wrote:
On Fri, 2006-05-12 at 21:10 +1200, Rob Brown-Bayliss wrote:
> On 5/12/06, Lauri <lauri(a)ruja.ee> wrote:
>
> > The optional session saving is also missing (tick to save the session
> > when logging out).
>
> Yes, so it is. I just checked my session preferences and sure enough
> it is ticked to ask me on log-out, but I don't get asked...
>
> I am all for making things simple, but like many feel a lot has gone
> to far in fc5 and the latest gnome...
>
> If I wask the session manager to check when I log out if I want to
> save the session then I think it's fair to say I know what tha means
> and I should be given the choice. Simply ignoting a users preference
> is wrong, why give us the choice if yuo already know we don't want to
> save the session?
>
This is alot of the reason why I prefer KDE.
LX
--
You got that right!
--
To be updated...
9:03 p.m.
Lyvim Xaphir wrote:
On Fri, 2006-05-12 at 21:10 +1200, Rob Brown-Bayliss wrote:
>On 5/12/06, Lauri <lauri(a)ruja.ee> wrote:
>
>
>
>>The optional session saving is also missing (tick to save the session
>>when logging out).
>>
>>
>Yes, so it is. I just checked my session preferences and sure enough
>it is ticked to ask me on log-out, but I don't get asked...
>
>I am all for making things simple, but like many feel a lot has gone
>to far in fc5 and the latest gnome...
>
>If I wask the session manager to check when I log out if I want to
>save the session then I think it's fair to say I know what tha means
>and I should be given the choice. Simply ignoting a users preference
>is wrong, why give us the choice if yuo already know we don't want to
>save the session?
>
>
>
This is alot of the reason why I prefer KDE.
LX
The changes in GNOME and Nautilus are the main reasons why I'm sticking
with Shrike. I think it's the newer GNOME and Nautilus releases, but the
ones that come with Fedora just completely alienated me.
While we're on this subject, is there a way on the newer Nautilus to
keep everything in one window like the older Shrike versions and not
open a new window for each folder?
Russell Golden
9:40 p.m.
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
Hash: SHA1
Russell Golden wrote:
While we're on this subject, is there a way on the newer Nautilus
to
keep everything in one window like the older Shrike versions and not
open a new window for each folder?
Yes. In the nautilus preferences, check the "Always open in browser
windows" box on the Behavior tab.
You can also add the --browser option to a nautilus launcher to get a
browser window instead of the spatial view.
- --
Todd OpenPGP -> KeyID: 0xD654075A | URL: www.pobox.com/~tmz/pgp
======================================================================
Never take life seriously. Nobody gets out alive anyway.
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4:21 p.m.
Todd Zullinger wrote:
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
Hash: SHA1
Russell Golden wrote:
>While we're on this subject, is there a way on the newer Nautilus to
>keep everything in one window like the older Shrike versions and not
>open a new window for each folder?
>
>
Yes. In the nautilus preferences, check the "Always open in browser
windows" box on the Behavior tab.
You can also add the --browser option to a nautilus launcher to get a
browser window instead of the spatial view.
- --
Todd OpenPGP -> KeyID: 0xD654075A | URL: www.pobox.com/~tmz/pgp
======================================================================
Never take life seriously. Nobody gets out alive anyway.
something else that bugs me. If I upgrade from Shrike to FC4, I get the
regular console startup stuff. If I install FC4 from scratch, I get a
graphical thing during boot, and i have to press one of the buttons to
see what's going on. when your machine only has dual P2's this doesn't
work too well. Is there a way to install from scratch and get the
console boot thing like there was in Shrike?
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4:31 p.m.
New subject: Good Bye FC5 [Kitchen Sink]
Russell Golden wrote:
something else that bugs me. If I upgrade from Shrike to FC4, I get
the
regular console startup stuff. If I install FC4 from scratch, I get a
graphical thing during boot, and i have to press one of the buttons to
see what's going on. when your machine only has dual P2's this doesn't
work too well. Is there a way to install from scratch and get the
console boot thing like there was in Shrike?
I don't know about "from scratch" but it is quite easy to get the
desired behavior.
Go to your /etc/grub directory and edit the kernel lines to remove the
"rhgb" parameter. rhgb=red hat graphical boot.
FWIW, it would be nice if folks would stop using this thread for
"kitchen sink" items. Create a new thread with meaningful subjects!
This thread is getting very boring with things that have nothing to do
with Fedora. I'm just about getting ready to put this subject in a kill
file as well....
Thanks,
Ed
--
Ban the bomb. Save the world for conventional warfare.
4:41 p.m.
On 5/16/06, Russell Golden <dragonite.wylie(a)verizon.net> wrote:
Todd Zullinger wrote:
>-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
>Hash: SHA1
>
>Russell Golden wrote:
>
>
>>While we're on this subject, is there a way on the newer Nautilus to
>>keep everything in one window like the older Shrike versions and not
>>open a new window for each folder?
>>
>>
>
>Yes. In the nautilus preferences, check the "Always open in browser
>windows" box on the Behavior tab.
>
>You can also add the --browser option to a nautilus launcher to get a
>browser window instead of the spatial view.
>
>- --
>Todd OpenPGP -> KeyID: 0xD654075A | URL: www.pobox.com/~tmz/pgp
>======================================================================
>Never take life seriously. Nobody gets out alive anyway.
>
Yes, I think you just uninsall the graphical booter, can't remember
the package name.
--
To be updated...
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>
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>=fxN1
>-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----
>
>
>
something else that bugs me. If I upgrade from Shrike to FC4, I get the
regular console startup stuff. If I install FC4 from scratch, I get a
graphical thing during boot, and i have to press one of the buttons to
see what's going on. when your machine only has dual P2's this doesn't
work too well. Is there a way to install from scratch and get the
console boot thing like there was in Shrike?
4:50 p.m.
something else that bugs me. If I upgrade from Shrike to FC4, I get the
regular console startup stuff. If I install FC4 from scratch, I get
a
graphical thing during boot, and i have to press one of the buttons to
see what's going on. when your machine only has dual P2's this doesn't
work too well. Is there a way to install from scratch and get the
console boot thing like there was in Shrike?
Just take out the 'rhgb' keyword from the kernel command line in
/etc/boot/grub/grub.conf
and voila you get to see all the boot action.
Filippos
10:19 p.m.
On Tue, 2006-05-16 at 16:21 -0500, Russell Golden wrote:
If I install FC4 from scratch, I get a graphical thing during boot,
and i have to press one of the buttons to see what's going on.
Edit your kernel line in the grub.conf file. Remove "rhgb" and
"quiet"
parameters. The rhgb gets rid of the Red Hat Graphical Boot screen that
you're referring to. The quiet option *may* show less details while
you're booting up (I haven't noticed a difference, but I've not really
looked hard).
--
(Currently running FC4, in case that's important to the thread)
Don't send private replies to my address, the mailbox is ignored.
I read messages from the public lists.
12:37 a.m.
On Mon, 2006-05-15 at 21:03 -0500, Russell Golden wrote:
Lyvim Xaphir wrote:
>This is alot of the reason why I prefer KDE.
>
>LX
>
>
The changes in GNOME and Nautilus are the main reasons why I'm sticking
with Shrike. I think it's the newer GNOME and Nautilus releases, but the
ones that come with Fedora just completely alienated me.
While we're on this subject, is there a way on the newer Nautilus to
keep everything in one window like the older Shrike versions and not
open a new window for each folder?
Russell Golden
You know, I don't know where this "open new window everytime" mentality
came from, but like you I find it highly annoying. Evo on FC5 seems to
have done away with the 3-pane concept in favor of you just having two
panes, with the left pane doubling as a preview pane....stupid. It's
much more efficient to have three Evo panes, the folders to the left, a
listing of folder contents to the right-top, and a view of the email at
the right-bottom. I don't want to open a new window everytime I view an
email. It's possible I'm missing something, even tho I've been thru the
menus with a fine tooth comb. But I just haven't been able to find the
rosetta stone to allow adding a third pane to the Evo window (and until
this year I havent' needed to). I wish I could advise you on Nautilus,
but I went the way of konqueror as a graphical file-management a loooong
time ago. It's much more adaptable, configurable, and doesn't seem to
assume you're an idiot like alot of gnome apps do.
Evo is about the only gnome app that I use. If the third pane has been
abolished in favor of new windows, I'm afraid I'll be using one less
gnome app.
LX
--
°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°
When the ax entered the forest, the trees said,
"The handle is one of us!" -- Turkish proverb
Registered Linux User #268899 http://counter.li.org/
°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°
11:20 p.m.
On 5/16/06, Lyvim Xaphir <knightmerc(a)yahoo.com> wrote:
On Mon, 2006-05-15 at 21:03 -0500, Russell Golden wrote:
> Lyvim Xaphir wrote:
>
> >This is alot of the reason why I prefer KDE.
> >
> >LX
> >
> >
> The changes in GNOME and Nautilus are the main reasons why I'm sticking
> with Shrike. I think it's the newer GNOME and Nautilus releases, but the
> ones that come with Fedora just completely alienated me.
> While we're on this subject, is there a way on the newer Nautilus to
> keep everything in one window like the older Shrike versions and not
> open a new window for each folder?
>
> Russell Golden
You know, I don't know where this "open new window everytime" mentality
came from, but like you I find it highly annoying.
Dude, where have you been. This was how progman in Win 3.x worked.
--
To be updated...
11:47 p.m.
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
Hash: SHA1
Arthur Pemberton wrote:
On 5/16/06, Lyvim Xaphir <knightmerc(a)yahoo.com> wrote:
[...]
>You know, I don't know where this "open new window
everytime" mentality
>came from, but like you I find it highly annoying.
Dude, where have you been. This was how progman in Win 3.x worked.
And MS stole it from Apple, who probably stole it from somewhere else
(I'm not sure if the concept of spatial views was in the Xerox PARC
GUI's where Apple got a lot of their early ideas for their interface).
Google for 'nautilus spatial' for plenty of background discussion and
holy wars if that sort of thing interests you.
I simply turn that option off and it doesn't bother me on the rare
occasions when I use a graphical file manager. AFAIAC, GUI file
managers suck compared to shell commands and scripts. :-)
(BTW, I like how you used "Win 3.x" and "worked" in the same
sentence.
Good one! :)
- --
Todd OpenPGP -> KeyID: 0xD654075A | URL: www.pobox.com/~tmz/pgp
======================================================================
Many people lose their tempers merely by seeing you keep yours.
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4:15 p.m.
Arthur Pemberton wrote:
On 5/16/06, Lyvim Xaphir <knightmerc(a)yahoo.com> wrote:
> On Mon, 2006-05-15 at 21:03 -0500, Russell Golden wrote:
> > Lyvim Xaphir wrote:
> >
>
> > >This is alot of the reason why I prefer KDE.
> > >
> > >LX
> > >
> > >
> > The changes in GNOME and Nautilus are the main reasons why I'm
> sticking
> > with Shrike. I think it's the newer GNOME and Nautilus releases,
> but the
> > ones that come with Fedora just completely alienated me.
> > While we're on this subject, is there a way on the newer Nautilus to
> > keep everything in one window like the older Shrike versions and not
> > open a new window for each folder?
> >
> > Russell Golden
>
> You know, I don't know where this "open new window everytime"
mentality
> came from, but like you I find it highly annoying.
Dude, where have you been. This was how progman in Win 3.x worked.
yes, and thank God they made an option in win9x to keep everything in
the same window. it's stupid to have everything in separate windows.
it's just clutter
6:45 a.m.
On Tue, 2006-05-16 at 16:15 -0500, Russell Golden wrote:
yes, and thank God they made an option in win9x to keep everything in
the same window. it's stupid to have everything in separate windows.
it's just clutter
Exactly, because of user demand. New window behavior as opposed to tab
or pane setups is retrograde evolution.
LX
--
°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°
When the ax entered the forest, the trees said,
"The handle is one of us!" -- Turkish proverb
Registered Linux User #268899 http://counter.li.org/
°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°
10:34 a.m.
On 5/17/06, Lyvim Xaphir <knightmerc(a)yahoo.com> wrote:
On Tue, 2006-05-16 at 16:15 -0500, Russell Golden wrote:
> yes, and thank God they made an option in win9x to keep everything in
> the same window. it's stupid to have everything in separate windows.
> it's just clutter
>
Exactly, because of user demand. New window behavior as opposed to tab
or pane setups is retrograde evolution.
How about some user demand for flexibility of choice? The "open in a
broswer window" is not acceptable. I want the *folder* to open *in
the same window*, not in a browswer window. How about some user
demand for the GNOME developers to stop screwing with fundamental user
interface design every single release?
I used to be of the opinion that GNOME was "the one" -- both
technically superior to KDE (it is) and philosophically superior (now
I'm doubtful). GNOME is rapidly losing my respect as it's become less
and less easy to use (ironically) because I can't make it do anything
other than what's in The Vision(tm) of whomever is making these design
decisions.
Linus is probably right, I should switch to KDE.
--
Chris
"I trust the Democrats to take away my money, which I can afford. I
trust the Republicans to take away my freedom, which I cannot."
11:03 a.m.
On 5/17/06, Christofer C. Bell <christofer.c.bell(a)gmail.com> wrote:
On 5/17/06, Lyvim Xaphir <knightmerc(a)yahoo.com> wrote:
> On Tue, 2006-05-16 at 16:15 -0500, Russell Golden wrote:
>
> > yes, and thank God they made an option in win9x to keep everything in
> > the same window. it's stupid to have everything in separate windows.
> > it's just clutter
> >
>
> Exactly, because of user demand. New window behavior as opposed to tab
> or pane setups is retrograde evolution.
How about some user demand for flexibility of choice? The "open in a
broswer window" is not acceptable. I want the *folder* to open *in
the same window*, not in a browswer window. How about some user
demand for the GNOME developers to stop screwing with fundamental user
interface design every single release?
I used to be of the opinion that GNOME was "the one" -- both
technically superior to KDE (it is) and philosophically superior (now
I'm doubtful). GNOME is rapidly losing my respect as it's become less
and less easy to use (ironically) because I can't make it do anything
other than what's in The Vision(tm) of whomever is making these design
decisions.
Linus is probably right, I should switch to KDE.
I did. And I didn't need a kernerl coder to tell me that.
--
To be updated...
8:45 a.m.
On Wed, 2006-05-17 at 11:03 -0500, Arthur Pemberton wrote:
On 5/17/06, Christofer C. Bell <christofer.c.bell(a)gmail.com>
wrote:
> On 5/17/06, Lyvim Xaphir <knightmerc(a)yahoo.com> wrote:
> > On Tue, 2006-05-16 at 16:15 -0500, Russell Golden wrote:
> >
> > > yes, and thank God they made an option in win9x to keep everything in
> > > the same window. it's stupid to have everything in separate windows.
> > > it's just clutter
> > >
> >
> > Exactly, because of user demand. New window behavior as opposed to tab
> > or pane setups is retrograde evolution.
>
> How about some user demand for flexibility of choice? The "open in a
> broswer window" is not acceptable. I want the *folder* to open *in
> the same window*, not in a browswer window. How about some user
> demand for the GNOME developers to stop screwing with fundamental user
> interface design every single release?
>
> I used to be of the opinion that GNOME was "the one" -- both
> technically superior to KDE (it is) and philosophically superior (now
> I'm doubtful). GNOME is rapidly losing my respect as it's become less
> and less easy to use (ironically) because I can't make it do anything
> other than what's in The Vision(tm) of whomever is making these design
> decisions.
>
> Linus is probably right, I should switch to KDE.
>
I did. And I didn't need a kernerl coder to tell me that.
The Enlightenment guys told the gnome guys a long time ago that they
were barking up the wrong tree. I knew they were right then (the code
would be bloated and the philosophy bastardized) and it's still true
today. KDE makes this system usable with more mature software, and more
technical choices are available.
Truthfully I'd rather run Enlightenment(even more user freedom), but the
E repo for FC5 doesn't seem to work. Even if I was running E, all my
apps except for evolution would *still* be KDE.
LX
--
°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°
A wise person makes his own decisions, a weak one
obeys public opinion. -- Chinese proverb
Registered Linux User #268899 http://counter.li.org/
°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°
11:11 a.m.
On Wed, 2006-17-05 at 10:34 -0500, Christofer C. Bell wrote:
I used to be of the opinion that GNOME was "the one" --
both
technically superior to KDE (it is) and philosophically superior (now
I'm doubtful). GNOME is rapidly losing my respect as it's become less
and less easy to use (ironically) because I can't make it do anything
other than what's in The Vision(tm) of whomever is making these design
decisions.
Linus is probably right, I should switch to KDE.
Gnome is heading more and more towards a corporate desktop that is
affordable to maintain, support, and deploy. That necessarily means
removing/changing anything that could confuse the end user and thus
require a call to tech support. Of course, it also means that Gnome
should be easier to use for everyone, except maybe for "power" users.
I don't like some of the decisions that Gnome devs have made, but I
think the rapid change is where most of the grief is coming from. I and
many others have difficulty adjusting too, so you're certainly not
alone.
On the whole , Gnome is headed towards a better place. It's much easier
now to maintain and support a Gnome environment than it was in the past
- I really appreciate the advancements in this area. But, for all us
power end users, be warned: expect to run into a brick wall, at full
speed, face first, many, many, many times. :)
Regards,
Ranbir
--
Kanwar Ranbir Sandhu
Linux 2.6.16-1.2108_FC4 i686 GNU/Linux
12:03:27 up 3:02, 2 users, load average: 0.86, 0.72, 0.48
12:58 p.m.
On Wed, 2006-05-17 at 11:11, Kanwar Ranbir Sandhu wrote:
>
> Linus is probably right, I should switch to KDE.
Gnome is heading more and more towards a corporate desktop that is
affordable to maintain, support, and deploy.
You'd think they would consolidate remote management if that
were the case. It should be trivial to merge additional machines
and control them in the manner of windows manager console since
X apps already do everything remotely. But, it doesn't really
work because of all the special cases that break X's native
remote capability.
I don't like some of the decisions that Gnome devs have made, but
I
think the rapid change is where most of the grief is coming from. I and
many others have difficulty adjusting too, so you're certainly not
alone.
I wish the developers would work with more than one machine
and use remote windows on a regular basis. This is the one
capability where X has advantages compared to other systems
and the desktop managers go out of their way to break it.
I thought back in the days when Gnome was slow and clunky that
it was worth it because they were doing things the right way,
but it hasn't panned out that way. I don't see any way to get
to the gnome menu system remotely without taking the whole
desktop and even if you could, program startup behavior isn't
all that predictable. For example if you try to start a remote
firefox you may instead magically tell the one running on your
local box to open a new window. That's as bizarre as a command
line program deciding on its own not to inherit stdout whenever
it feels like it.
If you run konqueror in a remote window you can actually view
the menus on the remote machine in the left panel (and thus
I don't think adding the ability to merge remote machines into
this view like WMC would be all that difficult), but if you
start something that wants to run in a panel it may or may
not do something reasonable.
--
Les Mikesell
lesmikesell(a)gmail.com
8:39 a.m.
On Wed, 2006-05-17 at 10:34 -0500, Christofer C. Bell wrote:
On 5/17/06, Lyvim Xaphir <knightmerc(a)yahoo.com> wrote:
> On Tue, 2006-05-16 at 16:15 -0500, Russell Golden wrote:
>
> > yes, and thank God they made an option in win9x to keep everything in
> > the same window. it's stupid to have everything in separate windows.
> > it's just clutter
> >
>
> Exactly, because of user demand. New window behavior as opposed to tab
> or pane setups is retrograde evolution.
How about some user demand for flexibility of choice? The "open in a
broswer window" is not acceptable. I want the *folder* to open *in
the same window*, not in a browswer window. How about some user
demand for the GNOME developers to stop screwing with fundamental user
interface design every single release?
Bingo. My sentiments exactly. Couldn't have said it better.
I used to be of the opinion that GNOME was "the one" -- both
technically superior to KDE (it is) and philosophically superior (now
I'm doubtful). GNOME is rapidly losing my respect as it's become less
and less easy to use (ironically) because I can't make it do anything
other than what's in The Vision(tm) of whomever is making these design
decisions.
Right on. There's alot of this disconnect with Gnome "designers" and
their constituency, which for some reason they don't seem to ask for
advice. (???) I would even go so far as to say that this requires a
large amount of fascism on the part of the "designers"; since in fact
this is not about user choice, it's about "designer" choice. That
smacks of a dictatorship, not a democracy; there's more of ulcer than
understanding about it.
Linus is probably right, I should switch to KDE.
I kind of tend to trust Linus Torvalds too. ;) And he's definitely
right.
If there was ever a man that believed in freedom of choice, it's LBT.
Both in proprietary and free software arenas. Free software without
freedom of choice is still no freedom. You should never let "free
software" ideology take away your freedom of choice. Linus understands
that.
--
Chris
LX
--
°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°
Kites rise highest against the wind -- not with it.
-- Winston Churchill
Registered Linux User #268899 http://counter.li.org/
°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°
10:24 p.m.
On Thu, 2006-05-18 at 09:39 -0400, Lyvim Xaphir wrote:
On Wed, 2006-05-17 at 10:34 -0500, Christofer C. Bell wrote:
>
>
> I used to be of the opinion that GNOME was "the one" -- both
> technically superior to KDE (it is) and philosophically superior (now
> I'm doubtful). GNOME is rapidly losing my respect as it's become less
> and less easy to use (ironically) because I can't make it do anything
> other than what's in The Vision(tm) of whomever is making these design
> decisions.
Right on. There's alot of this disconnect with Gnome "designers" and
their constituency, which for some reason they don't seem to ask for
advice. (???) I would even go so far as to say that this requires a
large amount of fascism on the part of the "designers"; since in fact
this is not about user choice, it's about "designer" choice. That
smacks of a dictatorship, not a democracy; there's more of ulcer than
understanding about it.
<chuckles> In a study of basic criminality, the lack of Empathy is a
major precursor to abusive behavior, of any form. Put that one in your
pipe and smoke it. Aggression is a one sided relationship where my goals
are of 100% importance and my relationship value of you is 0%.
Just to set the record straight;
Withdrawn is 0% personal goals, 0% relationship
Passive is 0% personal goals, 100% relationship
Assertive is 100% personal goals, 100% relationship
Compromise is 50% personal goals, 50% relationship
... so it's considered healthy to try to be properly assertive, but
everyone has a unique perspective, so you compromise settling for less,
yet getting World Peace. It's not hard once you become Borg with your
computer to objectify yourself and everyone around you... it shows up
even in user interfaces, as you both have noticed. Not friendly;
Do-it-my-way-I-am-coder-you-are-Borg. Been there, done that, have the
T-Shirt. It cost me. Not good. Not going back there again.
>Linus is probably right, I should switch to KDE.
I kind of tend to trust Linus Torvalds too. ;) And he's definitely
right.
Linus is a classic study in proper assertiveness. He's a uber-geek
(personal goals) -and- he values people (values relationships).
If there was ever a man that believed in freedom of choice, it's
LBT.
Both in proprietary and free software arenas. Free software without
freedom of choice is still no freedom. You should never let "free
software" ideology take away your freedom of choice. Linus understands
that
Of course, people matter more to him than code. It shows and his is not
a bad example to follow. Bob Young and Mathew Szulik are both people
persons. I knew Bob from the Red Hat days and, when I got into a scrape,
he wrote me personally. When Mathew came onboard, he would "mother hen"
the whole team, checking up to see if you had what you needed and how
are you and how is your Mum? (sorry, stole that one from the Gecko!) but
you get the picture. Now Bob runs lulu.com to enable and encourage
people to publish books, art and music on the web. I'm sure Mathew had a
hand in this Fedora thing. So, I stick with it and, even when things
screw up, I beleive their (RH) heart is in the right place.
Humans do mess up and make mistakes 15% of the time. No software or
system will ever be completely bulletproof as long as humans play any
part of a role in development. To me, bad software or systems are those
that do not take the human relationship value (usablility) to a high
percentage value. KDE seems to score the most, in that area, according
to the way I see it. But I've installed Enlightenment, to dink with, as
it seems to be less of a memory hog. That's compromise, as I've lowered
my expectations for less cpu usage. Owell, I'll shut up... in favor of
my relationship value to you all. <chuckles> Ric
7:31 a.m.
On Thu, 2006-05-18 at 23:24 -0400, Rickey Moore wrote:
<chuckles> In a study of basic criminality, the lack of Empathy
is a
major precursor to abusive behavior, of any form. Put that one in your
pipe and smoke it. Aggression is a one sided relationship where my goals
are of 100% importance and my relationship value of you is 0%.
Just to set the record straight;
Withdrawn is 0% personal goals, 0% relationship
Passive is 0% personal goals, 100% relationship
Assertive is 100% personal goals, 100% relationship
Compromise is 50% personal goals, 50% relationship
... so it's considered healthy to try to be properly assertive, but
everyone has a unique perspective, so you compromise settling for less,
yet getting World Peace. It's not hard once you become Borg with your
computer to objectify yourself and everyone around you... it shows up
even in user interfaces, as you both have noticed. Not friendly;
Do-it-my-way-I-am-coder-you-are-Borg. Been there, done that, have the
T-Shirt. It cost me. Not good. Not going back there again.
> >Linus is probably right, I should switch to KDE.
> I kind of tend to trust Linus Torvalds too. ;) And he's definitely
> right.
Linus is a classic study in proper assertiveness. He's a uber-geek
(personal goals) -and- he values people (values relationships).
> If there was ever a man that believed in freedom of choice, it's LBT.
> Both in proprietary and free software arenas. Free software without
> freedom of choice is still no freedom. You should never let "free
> software" ideology take away your freedom of choice. Linus understands
> that
Of course, people matter more to him than code. It shows and his is not
a bad example to follow. Bob Young and Mathew Szulik are both people
persons. I knew Bob from the Red Hat days and, when I got into a scrape,
he wrote me personally. When Mathew came onboard, he would "mother hen"
the whole team, checking up to see if you had what you needed and how
are you and how is your Mum? (sorry, stole that one from the Gecko!) but
you get the picture. Now Bob runs lulu.com to enable and encourage
people to publish books, art and music on the web. I'm sure Mathew had a
hand in this Fedora thing. So, I stick with it and, even when things
screw up, I beleive their (RH) heart is in the right place.
***snip****
Ric, that was an excellent read. Thanks for posting it. :)
LX
--
°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°
When the ax entered the forest, the trees said,
"The handle is one of us!" -- Turkish proverb
Registered Linux User #268899 http://counter.li.org/
°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°
11:38 p.m.
On Thu, 2006-05-18 at 09:39 -0400, Lyvim Xaphir wrote:
Right on. There's alot of this disconnect with Gnome
"designers" and
their constituency, which for some reason they don't seem to ask for
advice. (???) I would even go so far as to say that this requires a
large amount of fascism on the part of the "designers"; since in fact
this is not about user choice, it's about "designer" choice. That
smacks of a dictatorship, not a democracy; there's more of ulcer than
understanding about it.
What on earth gave you the idea that free software development is a
democracy?? If you contribute something valuable you have influence, if
you only hold your hand open you have to take what you're given. No
amount of whining in public mailing lists is going to change that.
Think about it.
Cheers
Steffen.
12:19 a.m.
On 5/18/06, Steffen Kluge <kluge(a)fujitsu.com.au> wrote:
What on earth gave you the idea that free software development is a
democracy?? If you contribute something valuable you have influence, if
you only hold your hand open you have to take what you're given. No
amount of whining in public mailing lists is going to change that.
Think about it.
We contribute by using the software. If people end up not using, then
all the development effort is wasted. Then again, maybe the few
hundred people that work on GNOME want to have their own private
desktop while everyone else finds something else to use.
Think about it.
--
Chris
"I trust the Democrats to take away my money, which I can afford. I
trust the Republicans to take away my freedom, which I cannot."
6:49 a.m.
On Fri, 2006-05-19 at 17:27 +1000, Steffen Kluge wrote:
On Fri, 2006-05-19 at 00:19 -0500, Christofer C. Bell wrote:
> We contribute by using the software.
Only if you submit bug reports and feature request. Bitching in forums
is not contributing.
Cheers
Steffen.
And yet you continue to do so.
LX
--
°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°
Answer a fool according to his folly, lest he be wise
in his own conceit. -- Proverbs, 26:5
Registered Linux User #268899 http://counter.li.org/
°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°
7:52 a.m.
On Fri, 2006-05-19 at 02:27, Steffen Kluge wrote:
On Fri, 2006-05-19 at 00:19 -0500, Christofer C. Bell wrote:
> We contribute by using the software.
Only if you submit bug reports and feature request. Bitching in forums
is not contributing.
That's not generally true. For many software projects the developers
are interested and active on the related mailing list and pay
attention to user comments. This just doesn't happen to be one
of them - and perhaps reasonably so since fedora is more a
packaging effort and not focused on a specific program.
On the other hand, at least some of this thread is about
default settings that would best be set in the distribution
packaging and let as an option in the base programming. That
is, the coders should permit all reasonable options and the
distributions should tune defaults to their user's preferences.
Saying that free software doesn't have to cater to the
user's whims is fine and true enough until you start
thinking of free software as a usable replacement for
the commercial versions. At that point it has to compete
in every way instead of just being good enough for people
willing to adjust to the way the coder liked to do things.
--
Les Mikesell
lesmikesell(a)gmail.com
11:29 p.m.
On Fri, 2006-05-19 at 17:27 +1000, Steffen Kluge wrote:
On Fri, 2006-05-19 at 00:19 -0500, Christofer C. Bell wrote:
> We contribute by using the software.
Only if you submit bug reports and feature request. Bitching in forums
is not contributing.
Arriving at a concensus of opinion, by posting in forums, in an open
exchange of information and perspectives can lead to improvement. Thesis
vs Antithesis yields Synthesis. --Karl Marx. Some of us unskilled
knuckleheads may be reticent to request a feature that may have some
inherent flaw in our logic, so we can be disabused of knuckleheaded
notions safely here. There are perspectives to consider. Empathy is a
good thing, IMHO. Ric
11:37 p.m.
On Sun, 2006-05-21 at 00:29 -0400, Rickey Moore wrote:
On Fri, 2006-05-19 at 17:27 +1000, Steffen Kluge wrote:
> On Fri, 2006-05-19 at 00:19 -0500, Christofer C. Bell wrote:
> > We contribute by using the software.
>
> Only if you submit bug reports and feature request. Bitching in forums
> is not contributing.
Arriving at a concensus of opinion, by posting in forums, in an open
exchange of information and perspectives can lead to improvement.
Thesis vs Antithesis yields Synthesis. --Karl Marx. Some of us
unskilled knuckleheads may be reticent to request a feature that may
have some inherent flaw in our logic, so we can be disabused of
knuckleheaded notions safely here. There are perspectives to
consider. Empathy is a good thing, IMHO. Ric
----
All fine and good to a point and then it becomes
whining/bitching/counter productive.
It is productive to see if there is a problem with your expectations on
the message base first, then filing a bug report if you get confirmation
of your expectations and to even alert others on list to sign on to your
bug report if they feel likewise.
It is not reasonable to expect change to occur simply by voicing
opinions on the list though.
Craig
1:35 p.m.
On Sun May 21 2006 12:37 am, Craig White wrote:
All fine and good to a point and then it becomes
whining/bitching/counter productive.
...............
It is not reasonable to expect change to occur simply by
voicing opinions on the list though.
It is clear that there are numbers of reasonable folk on this
list that don't buy your argument/refrain. Your insulting
characterizations of others has itself become a form of
whining - you can't make a baby stop sh___ing in their pants by
soiling your own
--
Claude Jones
Brunswick, Md, USA
8:25 p.m.
On Mon, 2006-05-22 at 14:35 -0400, Claude Jones wrote:
On Sun May 21 2006 12:37 am, Craig White wrote:
> All fine and good to a point and then it becomes
> whining/bitching/counter productive.
>
> ...............
>
> It is not reasonable to expect change to occur simply by
> voicing opinions on the list though.
It is clear that there are numbers of reasonable folk on this
list that don't buy your argument/refrain. Your insulting
characterizations of others has itself become a form of
whining - you can't make a baby stop sh___ing in their pants by
soiling your own
----
you probably should have considered your motivation for the above. It
was entirely without benefit for anyone but intended to insult me.
You need to grow up soon.
Craig
6:55 p.m.
Claude Jones wrote:
On Sun May 21 2006 12:37 am, Craig White wrote:
>All fine and good to a point and then it becomes
>whining/bitching/counter productive.
>
>...............
>
>It is not reasonable to expect change to occur simply by
>voicing opinions on the list though.
>
>
It is clear that there are numbers of reasonable folk on this
list that don't buy your argument/refrain. Your insulting
characterizations of others has itself become a form of
whining - you can't make a baby stop sh___ing in their pants by
soiling your own
Actually I have to agree with Mr. White on this one. The dev people are
most likely too busy to monitor all of the mailing lists for every
distribution. If we have something to say, we need to a) see if other
people agree via mailing lists, then b) submit a feature request. If we
just keep complaining on the lists, it won't change. Anybody know where
the GNOME project page is so that at least one of us can submit a request?
Russell Golden
"A person is smart. People are dumb, ignorant animals and y ou know it."
--Agent Kay, MIB
7:02 p.m.
On Tue, 2006-05-23 at 18:55 -0500, Russell Golden wrote:
Claude Jones wrote:
>On Sun May 21 2006 12:37 am, Craig White wrote:
>
>
>>All fine and good to a point and then it becomes
>>whining/bitching/counter productive.
>>
>>...............
>>
>>It is not reasonable to expect change to occur simply by
>>voicing opinions on the list though.
>>
>>
>
>It is clear that there are numbers of reasonable folk on this
>list that don't buy your argument/refrain. Your insulting
>characterizations of others has itself become a form of
>whining - you can't make a baby stop sh___ing in their pants by
>soiling your own
>
>
Actually I have to agree with Mr. White on this one. The dev people are
most likely too busy to monitor all of the mailing lists for every
distribution. If we have something to say, we need to a) see if other
people agree via mailing lists, then b) submit a feature request. If we
just keep complaining on the lists, it won't change. Anybody know where
the GNOME project page is so that at least one of us can submit a request?
The place to go is http://bugzilla.gnome.org
----------------------------------------------------------------------
- Rick Stevens, Senior Systems Engineer rstevens(a)vitalstream.com -
- VitalStream, Inc. http://www.vitalstream.com -
- -
- The light at the end of the tunnel is really an oncoming train. -
----------------------------------------------------------------------
7:19 p.m.
Rick Stevens wrote:
On Tue, 2006-05-23 at 18:55 -0500, Russell Golden wrote:
>Claude Jones wrote:
>
>
>
>>On Sun May 21 2006 12:37 am, Craig White wrote:
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>>All fine and good to a point and then it becomes
>>>whining/bitching/counter productive.
>>>
>>>...............
>>>
>>>It is not reasonable to expect change to occur simply by
>>>voicing opinions on the list though.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>It is clear that there are numbers of reasonable folk on this
>>list that don't buy your argument/refrain. Your insulting
>>characterizations of others has itself become a form of
>>whining - you can't make a baby stop sh___ing in their pants by
>>soiling your own
>>
>>
>>
>>
>Actually I have to agree with Mr. White on this one. The dev people are
>most likely too busy to monitor all of the mailing lists for every
>distribution. If we have something to say, we need to a) see if other
>people agree via mailing lists, then b) submit a feature request. If we
>just keep complaining on the lists, it won't change. Anybody know where
>the GNOME project page is so that at least one of us can submit a request?
>
>
The place to go is http://bugzilla.gnome.org
----------------------------------------------------------------------
- Rick Stevens, Senior Systems Engineer rstevens(a)vitalstream.com -
- VitalStream, Inc. http://www.vitalstream.com -
- -
- The light at the end of the tunnel is really an oncoming train. -
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Well, just submitted it. thanks for the link. Can we stop talking about
nautilus here and move onto something else? Not that I'm complaining...
--
Russell Golden
"A person is smart. People are dumb, ignorant animals and you know it."
--Agent Kay, MIB
"Speak softly and carry a big stick, and you will go far."
--Theodore "Teddy" Roosevelt
"Hello! Hello! Anybody home?! Think, McFly! Think!"
--Biff
"Never argue with an idiot. They will lower you to their level then beat you with
experience."
--Karissa Flaming
"Life is like a math book. There are lots of questions, but only the odd ones are
answered for you."
--Nick Riccio
7:11 p.m.
How do,
On Tue, 2006-05-23 at 18:55 -0500, Russell Golden wrote:
Claude Jones wrote:
>On Sun May 21 2006 12:37 am, Craig White wrote:
>
>
>>All fine and good to a point and then it becomes
>>whining/bitching/counter productive.
>>
>>...............
>>
>>It is not reasonable to expect change to occur simply by
>>voicing opinions on the list though.
>>
>>
>
>It is clear that there are numbers of reasonable folk on this
>list that don't buy your argument/refrain. Your insulting
>characterizations of others has itself become a form of
>whining - you can't make a baby stop sh___ing in their pants by
>soiling your own
>
>
Actually I have to agree with Mr. White on this one. The dev people are
most likely too busy to monitor all of the mailing lists for every
distribution. If we have something to say, we need to a) see if other
people agree via mailing lists, then b) submit a feature request. If we
just keep complaining on the lists, it won't change. Anybody know where
the GNOME project page is so that at least one of us can submit a request?
Will www.gnome.org suffice? ;-)
Russell Golden
taharka
Lexington, Kentucky U.S.A.
7:02 a.m.
On Fri, 2006-05-19 at 00:19 -0500, Christofer C. Bell wrote:
On 5/18/06, Steffen Kluge <kluge(a)fujitsu.com.au> wrote:
>
> What on earth gave you the idea that free software development is a
> democracy?? If you contribute something valuable you have influence, if
> you only hold your hand open you have to take what you're given. No
> amount of whining in public mailing lists is going to change that.
>
> Think about it.
We contribute by using the software. If people end up not using, then
all the development effort is wasted. Then again, maybe the few
hundred people that work on GNOME want to have their own private
desktop while everyone else finds something else to use.
Think about it.
--
Chris
Exactly. There is no widely used software that is developed in a
vacuum. M$ depends heavily on focus groups, in order to find those
features of their GUI that would be appreciated by the public as a
whole. They understand that users will vote with their pocketbooks,
therefore they are very sensitive to their interface with the public,
which is the GUI.
In the Linux world, users are also voting. They vote by using the
software. Or not. This is not trivial, on the contrary it is quite
profound, as Chris has pointed out. This is the nexus where the
software becomes relevant or non-relevant. Bug reports are fine for
bugs, but a bug report with commentary on particular behavior is likely
to elicit responses of "this is not a bug, but the expected behavior";
or more likely no response at all. There is therefore a place for
commentary on behavior and this is exactly one of those places.
LX
--
°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°
Kites rise highest against the wind -- not with it.
-- Winston Churchill
Registered Linux User #268899 http://counter.li.org/
°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°
5:35 a.m.
On Fri, 2006-05-19 at 14:38 +1000, Steffen Kluge wrote:
On Thu, 2006-05-18 at 09:39 -0400, Lyvim Xaphir wrote:
> Right on. There's alot of this disconnect with Gnome "designers" and
> their constituency, which for some reason they don't seem to ask for
> advice. (???) I would even go so far as to say that this requires a
> large amount of fascism on the part of the "designers"; since in fact
> this is not about user choice, it's about "designer" choice. That
> smacks of a dictatorship, not a democracy; there's more of ulcer than
> understanding about it.
What on earth gave you the idea that free software development is a
democracy?? If you contribute something valuable you have influence, if
you only hold your hand open you have to take what you're given. No
amount of whining in public mailing lists is going to change that.
Think about it.
Cheers
Steffen.
You think about it. I don't require any more thought time on this
subject. The purpose of software is people driven, therefore there will
always be something of a democracy about it. Some devs listen to their
userbase, some don't, the former is much like a representative
democracy. This is why gnome bites and KDE doesnt, so take it or leave
it.
LX
--
°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°
Answer a fool according to his folly, lest he be wise
in his own conceit. -- Proverbs, 26:5
Registered Linux User #268899 http://counter.li.org/
°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°
9:48 a.m.
Johnny wrote:
On Thu, May 11, 2006 at 07:20:44AM -0500, Rex Dieter wrote:
> Karl Larsen wrote:
>
>> I upgraded to FC5 because it was claimed that it is
>> better. But some of my best "legacy" software in X-windows looks
>> diffirent and does not work well.
>>
> Without mentioning any details (what software? what problems?),
> no-one can/will fix it.
>
I can't speak for Karl, but I've also noticed quite a few regressions
in FC5. In the past I've always thought that on balance, each release
of Fedora was better than the last, even if there are a few changes
that I wasn't fond of. FC5 is different.
- Lack of an "install everything" option requires maintaining a
list of all the stuff that has to be installed after completing
the initial installation, so that if I want to do another
install, or an install of FC6 I'll be able do do so quickly.
- The xorg radeon driver no longer works with two display heads.
Resolving this requires installing the evil kernel-tainting
proprietary ATI driver.
- The epiphany web broser requires dbus, and so is no longer a
network app, but one that can only be run from the local
console.
- The pwc (Phillips Web Camera) driver loads, but the output of
the Logitec web camera can't be displayed in either TVtime or
xawtv.
- gnome-screensaver is lame (too few hacks, unconfigurable) and
buggy (locks the screen at inappropriate times).
- The nautilus button-3 menu doesn't offer a terminal. The
nautilus-open-terminal package adds one, but it's in the middle
of the menu where it's less convenient, and it always opens the
terminal on display :0.0, even when used from another display.
I solved that by accident Johnny, I slid the application control
from the list to the top where it's always available. Took a minute.
But I agree with all else including my problems with FC5....
10:31 a.m.
On Thu, 2006-05-11 at 09:48, Karl Larsen wrote:
> - The nautilus button-3 menu doesn't offer a terminal.
The
> nautilus-open-terminal package adds one, but it's in the middle
> of the menu where it's less convenient, and it always opens the
> terminal on display :0.0, even when used from another display.
>
I solved that by accident Johnny, I slid the application control
from the list to the top where it's always available. Took a minute.
In case people don't understand what you mean by that, you can
simply drag things out of the gnome menus onto the desktop
where they become double-click launchers or onto the quick-launch
panel (by the firefox/evolution/OO icons) where they start with
a single click. I've usually done that with the terminal icon
even on versions that had it on the right-click menu.
Now, does anyone know how to execute the gnome menu button
remotely? I normally connect to several different machines
and would like to have access to their menus and be able to
launch any available program without having to run the rest
of the desktop remotely.
--
Les Mikesell
lesmikesell(a)gmail.com
10:49 a.m.
Les Mikesell wrote:
Now, does anyone know how to execute the gnome menu button
remotely? I normally connect to several different machines
and would like to have access to their menus and be able to
launch any available program without having to run the rest
of the desktop remotely.
I do it using vncviewer
--
Yonas Abraham, PhD
Registered Linux user number 407343 http://counter.li.org
11:30 a.m.
On Thu, 2006-05-11 at 10:49, yonas abraham wrote:
> Now, does anyone know how to execute the gnome menu button
> remotely? I normally connect to several different machines
> and would like to have access to their menus and be able to
> launch any available program without having to run the rest
> of the desktop remotely.
>
I do it using vncviewer
But vncviewer gets you the whole remote desktop in a
separate window. What I what are several menu buttons
from different remote machines running on my desktop with
programs started from any of them opening in new windows
on my desktop. You can sort-of get the effect by dragging
some menu items onto the desktop on the remote machines
then from your desktop 'ssh -Y remote-machine' followed
by running 'nautlius &' in that terminal. This opens a
screen on your desktop showing the remote desktop minus
the menus and taskbars, but you can double-click any of the
launchers you moved to the filesystem to start programs that
open in new windows on your display. What I want is just the
menu button, though. If it had a name, I'd expect to be able
to 'ssh -Y remote_machine gnome-menu' or something like that
and get a working remote menu.
--
Les Mikesell
lesmikesell(a)gmail.com
3:07 p.m.
On Thu, 2006-05-11 at 11:30 -0500, Les Mikesell wrote:
open in new windows on your display. What I want is just the
menu button, though. If it had a name, I'd expect to be able
to 'ssh -Y remote_machine gnome-menu' or something like that
and get a working remote menu.
So do what I did with evolution. Create a script on the remote machine
something like:
#!/bin/bash
evolution --force-shutdown
evolution
Then on your local machine create a custom launcher with the command
like:
ssh -Y nameofremotemachine /fullpathto/nameofscripttorun
When I click on that icon on my local machine I get a very nice password
requester which then connects via ssh to the remote system and runs the
script as specified. The display is forwarded back to my local system.
In the custom launcher make sure the run in terminal option is not
checked.
You should be able to do similar things for pretty much any application.
And you don't need to have a script on the remote system, you can point
to the actual application. In my example I found it useful to force
evolution to shutdown first before trying to restart it.
3:22 p.m.
On Thu, 2006-05-11 at 15:07, Scot L. Harris wrote:
> open in new windows on your display. What I want is just the
> menu button, though. If it had a name, I'd expect to be able
> to 'ssh -Y remote_machine gnome-menu' or something like that
> and get a working remote menu.
So do what I did with evolution. Create a script on the remote machine
something like:
I think you are missing the point of what I want. I want to
install a new remote machine and have all of it's programs
available from my desktop without knowing ahead of time what
is actually installed there. If a new program is installed
on that machine, I want it to show up in the remotely-executed
menu like it does if you log in there. X is designed to let
anything run remotely. I don't see why the menu button should
be an exception - someone would really have to go out of their
way to break it - but I don't know how to invoke it by itself.
--
Les Mikesell
lesmikesell(a)gmail.com
4:05 p.m.
On Thu, 2006-11-05 at 15:22 -0500, Les Mikesell wrote:
I think you are missing the point of what I want. I want to
install a new remote machine and have all of it's programs
available from my desktop without knowing ahead of time what
is actually installed there. If a new program is installed
on that machine, I want it to show up in the remotely-executed
menu like it does if you log in there. X is designed to let
anything run remotely. I don't see why the menu button should
be an exception - someone would really have to go out of their
way to break it - but I don't know how to invoke it by itself.
That would be awesome. You could see in an instant what's installed on
each machine, click on the app in menu, and then have it displayed on
your local box.
I think this would have to be a combo of remote X and network aware
Gnome menu, configured to send it's configuration to a central
workstation. You would probably also have to throw in ssh keys for
passwordless logins, or export displays. I'd prefer the ssh key method.
I'm not sure how useful it would be for the community at large, but I do
know that it would make some tasks much easier.
I'm not a programmer, otherwise I'd give this a shot. So, who's up for
it? :)
Les, it might be a good idea to add this to bugzilla as a RFE.
Regards,
Ranbir
--
Kanwar Ranbir Sandhu
Linux 2.6.16-1.2108_FC4 i686 GNU/Linux
17:01:24 up 3:47, 2 users, load average: 0.40, 0.27, 0.39
7:16 p.m.
On Thu, 2006-05-11 at 16:05, Kanwar Ranbir Sandhu wrote:
> X is designed to let
> anything run remotely. I don't see why the menu button should
> be an exception - someone would really have to go out of their
> way to break it - but I don't know how to invoke it by itself.
That would be awesome. You could see in an instant what's installed on
each machine, click on the app in menu, and then have it displayed on
your local box.
I think this would have to be a combo of remote X and network aware
Gnome menu, configured to send it's configuration to a central
workstation.
X is natively network-aware. Someone would have really had to
go out of their way to make something *not* work the way
I want. As I mentioned, you can come close by dragging the
launchers onto the desktop then running nautilus to start
them.
You would probably also have to throw in ssh keys for
passwordless logins, or export displays. I'd prefer the ssh key method.
Good designs don't need special cases. There are already a number
of ways to get X to display where you want and any new program
started by an existing one will inherit the display if it needs
to open a new window.
I'm not sure how useful it would be for the community at large,
but I do
know that it would make some tasks much easier.
I'm not a programmer, otherwise I'd give this a shot. So, who's up for
it? :)
Les, it might be a good idea to add this to bugzilla as a RFE.
It may be that it already works if I just knew the name of
the thing that displays the menu. Or if I could get nautilus
to see the menu structure without dragging it onto the desktop
in a layout like a Mac's application folder.
--
Les Mikesell
lesmikesell(a)gmail.com
4:36 p.m.
Les Mikesell wrote:
On Thu, 2006-05-11 at 15:07, Scot L. Harris wrote:
>> open in new windows on your display. What I want is just the
>> menu button, though. If it had a name, I'd expect to be able
>> to 'ssh -Y remote_machine gnome-menu' or something like that
>> and get a working remote menu.
> So do what I did with evolution. Create a script on the remote machine
> something like:
I think you are missing the point of what I want. I want to
install a new remote machine and have all of it's programs
available from my desktop without knowing ahead of time what
is actually installed there. If a new program is installed
on that machine, I want it to show up in the remotely-executed
menu like it does if you log in there. X is designed to let
anything run remotely. I don't see why the menu button should
be an exception - someone would really have to go out of their
way to break it - but I don't know how to invoke it by itself.
I have not tested this, buy you could try running gnome-panel on the
remote machine. I am not sure if it will try and take over your
desktop. The other thing you can do is to run Xnest, and launch the
windows manager inside the Xnest window. It will give you a complete
remote desktop inside the window. (This requires a fast connection
between the two computers.
Mikkel
--
Do not meddle in the affairs of dragons,
for thou art crunchy and taste good with Ketchup!
6:26 p.m.
On Thu, 2006-05-11 at 16:36 -0500, Mikkel L. Ellertson wrote:
Les Mikesell wrote:
> On Thu, 2006-05-11 at 15:07, Scot L. Harris wrote:
>
>
>>> open in new windows on your display. What I want is just the
>>> menu button, though. If it had a name, I'd expect to be able
>>> to 'ssh -Y remote_machine gnome-menu' or something like that
>>> and get a working remote menu.
>> So do what I did with evolution. Create a script on the remote machine
>> something like:
>
> I think you are missing the point of what I want. I want to
> install a new remote machine and have all of it's programs
> available from my desktop without knowing ahead of time what
> is actually installed there. If a new program is installed
> on that machine, I want it to show up in the remotely-executed
> menu like it does if you log in there. X is designed to let
> anything run remotely. I don't see why the menu button should
> be an exception - someone would really have to go out of their
> way to break it - but I don't know how to invoke it by itself.
>
I have not tested this, buy you could try running gnome-panel on the
remote machine. I am not sure if it will try and take over your
desktop. The other thing you can do is to run Xnest, and launch the
windows manager inside the Xnest window. It will give you a complete
remote desktop inside the window. (This requires a fast connection
between the two computers.
Someone elst already said you can use vncviewer for this.
Mikkel
--
Do not meddle in the affairs of dragons,
for thou art crunchy and taste good with Ketchup!
7:47 p.m.
On Thu, 2006-05-11 at 18:26, Jeff Vian wrote:
On Thu, 2006-05-11 at 16:36 -0500, Mikkel L. Ellertson wrote:
> I have not tested this, buy you could try running gnome-panel on
the
> remote machine. I am not sure if it will try and take over your
> desktop. The other thing you can do is to run Xnest, and launch the
> windows manager inside the Xnest window. It will give you a complete
> remote desktop inside the window. (This requires a fast connection
> between the two computers.
A remote gnome-panel seems to take over the local panel position
and then have a split-personality about which one should be there.
I just want the little menu button in its own window.
Someone elst already said you can use vncviewer for this.
I don't want the whole desktops from all the other machines, just
the ability to launch any program available in any menu under
my local window manager with the usual cut/paste and positioning
control available. That's the way most other X things work.
--
Les Mikesell
lesmikesell(a)gmail.com
4:16 p.m.
On Thu, 2006-11-05 at 10:31 -0500, Les Mikesell wrote:
On Thu, 2006-05-11 at 09:48, Karl Larsen wrote:
> > - The nautilus button-3 menu doesn't offer a terminal. The
> > nautilus-open-terminal package adds one, but it's in the middle
> > of the menu where it's less convenient, and it always opens the
> > terminal on display :0.0, even when used from another display.
> >
> I solved that by accident Johnny, I slid the application control
> from the list to the top where it's always available. Took a minute.
In case people don't understand what you mean by that, you can
simply drag things out of the gnome menus onto the desktop
where they become double-click launchers or onto the quick-launch
panel (by the firefox/evolution/OO icons) where they start with
a single click. I've usually done that with the terminal icon
even on versions that had it on the right-click menu.
Now, does anyone know how to execute the gnome menu button
remotely? I normally connect to several different machines
and would like to have access to their menus and be able to
launch any available program without having to run the rest
of the desktop remotely.
Sounds like crazy talk to me. ;^}
4:24 p.m.
Guy Fraser wrote:
> Now, does anyone know how to execute the gnome menu button
> remotely? I normally connect to several different machines
> and would like to have access to their menus and be able to
> launch any available program without having to run the rest
> of the desktop remotely.
>
Sounds like crazy talk to me. ;^}
FWIW this sort of works in KDE. If you ssh to another box with -Y and
in the resulting bash session type
kicker
it does give you a "start button" from the remote box, in fact a whole
panel. But confusingly the panel reflects the windows open on your
local box :-) However the start button contents, and any apps started
there run on the remote box but using your local display. It's not
quite what Les asks for but it's quite cool that it can work :-)
-Andy
10:03 a.m.
Johnny wrote:
- Lack of an "install everything" option requires
maintaining a
list of all the stuff that has to be installed after completing
the initial installation, so that if I want to do another
install, or an install of FC6 I'll be able do do so quickly.
Hm well
rpm -qa --last | tac
might replace having to 'maintain' a list, it shows everything in
ascending install date order. It wasn't so long ago the happy ease of
yum install didn't exist... at least an installation action is
relatively quick and painless when needed.
- The xorg radeon driver no longer works with two display heads.
Resolving this requires installing the evil kernel-tainting
proprietary ATI driver.
Hum not much idea on it I'm afraid. What I did for a laptop here was
cherrypick some xorg packages out of the development branch (the main
server and the right driver) and that worked at the time, but I'm not
sure I recommend it unless you are ready to --oldpackage back to where
you came from.
- The pwc (Phillips Web Camera) driver loads, but the output of
the Logitec web camera can't be displayed in either TVtime or
xawtv.
You can get a later version of pwc here
http://www.saillard.org/linux/pwc/
than is shipped with the kernel. You can compile it without having to
recompile the kernel, but take care when updating, as the make install
goes to a path that is a directory of the same name on the Fedora
kernel. I assume the old version is inherited from the mainline kernel
and isn't Fedora's fault.
- gnome-screensaver is lame (too few hacks, unconfigurable) and
buggy (locks the screen at inappropriate times).
If you didn't already, try KDE instead of Gnome.
-Andy
5:20 p.m.
On Thu, 2006-05-11 at 16:03 +0100, Andy Green wrote:
If you didn't already, try KDE instead of Gnome.
-Andy
Boy do I ever agree with that! Hear hear.
LX
--
°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°
When the ax entered the forest, the trees said,
"The handle is one of us!" -- Turkish proverb
Registered Linux User #268899 http://counter.li.org/
°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°
7:06 p.m.
Andy Green wrote:
Johnny wrote:
> - gnome-screensaver is lame (too few hacks, unconfigurable) and
> buggy (locks the screen at inappropriate times).
If you didn't already, try KDE instead of Gnome.
I agree with gnome-screensaver not being of much interest an is not that
customizable. xscreensaver-base works fine and is configurable as before.
Though you could try KDE anyway.
Jim
-Andy
4:29 p.m.
On 5/11/06, Johnny <johnny_boy(a)comcast.net> wrote:
On Thu, May 11, 2006 at 07:20:44AM -0500, Rex Dieter wrote:
> Karl Larsen wrote:
> > I upgraded to FC5 because it was claimed that it is
> > better. But some of my best "legacy" software in X-windows looks
> > diffirent and does not work well.
>
> Without mentioning any details (what software? what problems?),
> no-one can/will fix it.
I can't speak for Karl, but I've also noticed quite a few regressions
in FC5. In the past I've always thought that on balance, each release
of Fedora was better than the last, even if there are a few changes
that I wasn't fond of. FC5 is different.
- Lack of an "install everything" option requires maintaining a
list of all the stuff that has to be installed after completing
the initial installation, so that if I want to do another
install, or an install of FC6 I'll be able do do so quickly.
- The xorg radeon driver no longer works with two display heads.
Resolving this requires installing the evil kernel-tainting
proprietary ATI driver.
- The epiphany web broser requires dbus, and so is no longer a
network app, but one that can only be run from the local
console.
- The pwc (Phillips Web Camera) driver loads, but the output of
the Logitec web camera can't be displayed in either TVtime or
xawtv.
- gnome-screensaver is lame (too few hacks, unconfigurable) and
buggy (locks the screen at inappropriate times).
- The nautilus button-3 menu doesn't offer a terminal. The
nautilus-open-terminal package adds one, but it's in the middle
of the menu where it's less convenient, and it always opens the
terminal on display :0.0, even when used from another display.
Sounds like you should give KDE a try.
--
To be updated...
9:36 a.m.
Rex Dieter wrote:
Karl Larsen wrote:
> I upgraded to FC5 because it was claimed that it is better. But some
> of my best "legacy" software in X-windows looks diffirent and does not
> work well.
>
Without mentioning any details (what software? what problems?), no-one
can/will fix it.
-- Rex
OK Rex the 2 files are gmfsk written by Tomi Mannon in Finland and
Xlog written on Source Forge. They are Amateur Radio programs and they
require fftw2 and hamlib which I yummed and that part is fine. The
problem is when they come up in FC5 they look odd and much of the
buttons do not work.
Tomi said the gnome has changed too much. I just checked and both
applications are normal on FC4. I am not smart enough to do anything. I
tried to yum install xtk-devel and it does not exist says yum.
Karl
2:55 p.m.
Hi Karl,
On Thu, 2006-05-11 at 08:36 -0600, Karl Larsen wrote:
OK Rex the 2 files are gmfsk written by Tomi Mannon in Finland
and
Xlog written on Source Forge. ... The
problem is when they come up in FC5 they look odd and much of the
buttons do not work.
XLog is installed and seems to be working fine here. If you can tell me
specifically what looks odd (maybe send screenshots if you have to), and
what doesn't work, I'll take a closer look.
I haven't reinstalled gmfsk yet since installing FC5, but I can
certainly give that a try.
73, Brian
VE7NGR/VE1NGR
4:25 p.m.
Brian Mury wrote:
Hi Karl,
On Thu, 2006-05-11 at 08:36 -0600, Karl Larsen wrote:
> OK Rex the 2 files are gmfsk written by Tomi Mannon in Finland and
> Xlog written on Source Forge. ... The
> problem is when they come up in FC5 they look odd and much of the
> buttons do not work.
>
XLog is installed and seems to be working fine here. If you can tell me
specifically what looks odd (maybe send screenshots if you have to), and
what doesn't work, I'll take a closer look.
I haven't reinstalled gmfsk yet since installing FC5, but I can
certainly give that a try.
73, Brian
VE7NGR/VE1NGR
Hi Brian, I can't tell for sure what is wrong with Xlog, or it might
be that the problem is with gmfsk. It is gmfsk that I cannot get right
and I can send you a screen shot of what it should look like from my FC4.
Karl
5:37 p.m.
On Thu, 2006-05-11 at 15:25 -0600, Karl Larsen wrote:
Hi Brian, I can't tell for sure what is wrong with Xlog, or
it might
be that the problem is with gmfsk. It is gmfsk that I cannot get right
and I can send you a screen shot of what it should look like from my FC4.
I just compiled gmfsk 0.7pre1 and it seems to be working fine. Sure,
send a screen shot, I'll see how it compares to mine.
I tried compiling 0.6, btw, and a got a compile error that I haven't
looked into yet.
6:14 p.m.
Brian Mury wrote:
On Thu, 2006-05-11 at 15:25 -0600, Karl Larsen wrote:
> Hi Brian, I can't tell for sure what is wrong with Xlog, or it might
> be that the problem is with gmfsk. It is gmfsk that I cannot get right
> and I can send you a screen shot of what it should look like from my FC4.
>
I just compiled gmfsk 0.7pre1 and it seems to be working fine. Sure,
send a screen shot, I'll see how it compares to mine.
I tried compiling 0.6, btw, and a got a compile error that I haven't
looked into yet.
Package libgnomeui-2.0 was not found
When I tried to configure gmfsk version 7 I got the above error. I tried
yum but it can't find it. So I can't compile as you did and have zero
ideas on how to find lib of any sort. They are the bane of my linux.
6:34 p.m.
On Thu, 2006-05-11 at 17:14 -0600, Karl Larsen wrote:
Package libgnomeui-2.0 was not found
It is in the core repository, with an updated version in updates. It
should already be installed. You probably just need the devel package.
Try this:
yum install libgnomeui libgnomeui-devel
6:56 p.m.
Brian Mury wrote:
On Thu, 2006-05-11 at 17:14 -0600, Karl Larsen wrote:
> Package libgnomeui-2.0 was not found
>
It is in the core repository, with an updated version in updates. It
should already be installed. You probably just need the devel package.
Try this:
yum install libgnomeui libgnomeui-devel
Hi Brian it took awhile to find a yum site that had the stuff but is
bringing down 30 megbytes of stuff. And I recall I had to find gtk2 to
get FC4 to configure and compile properly.
Thanks a lot!
9:55 p.m.
Karl Larsen wrote:
Brian Mury wrote:
> On Thu, 2006-05-11 at 17:14 -0600, Karl Larsen wrote:
>
>> Package libgnomeui-2.0 was not found
>>
>
> It is in the core repository, with an updated version in updates. It
> should already be installed. You probably just need the devel package.
> Try this:
>
> yum install libgnomeui libgnomeui-devel
>
Hi Brian it took awhile to find a yum site that had the stuff but
is bringing down 30 megbytes of stuff. And I recall I had to find gtk2
to get FC4 to configure and compile properly.
Thanks a lot!
Here is what happened. I got gmfsk to compile and load and it came
up working just fine except for the same dam error message whan you try
to go to transmit:
sound_open_for _write: opensnd: /dev/dsp Device or resource busy.
I was never able to clear this error message so of course it doesn't work.
10:02 p.m.
On Thu, 2006-05-11 at 20:55 -0600, Karl Larsen wrote:
Here is what happened. I got gmfsk to compile and load and it
came
up working just fine except for the same dam error message whan you try
to go to transmit:
sound_open_for _write: opensnd: /dev/dsp Device or resource busy.
I was never able to clear this error message so of course it doesn't work.
This is not a gmfsk problem. This simply means that some other program
has the soundcard locked, and gmfsk is unable to access it. You need to
find out what program is using the soundcard. For example, I have to
shut down Skype before I can run gmfsk.
12:59 a.m.
Brian Mury wrote:
On Thu, 2006-05-11 at 20:55 -0600, Karl Larsen wrote:
> Here is what happened. I got gmfsk to compile and load and it came
> up working just fine except for the same dam error message whan you try
> to go to transmit:
>
> sound_open_for _write: opensnd: /dev/dsp Device or resource busy.
>
> I was never able to clear this error message so of course it doesn't work.
This is not a gmfsk problem. This simply means that some other program
has the soundcard locked, and gmfsk is unable to access it. You need to
find out what program is using the soundcard. For example, I have to
shut down Skype before I can run gmfsk.
As root:
lsof -n | grep dsp
The first field is the process name.
-Andy
7:41 a.m.
Andy Green wrote:
Brian Mury wrote:
> On Thu, 2006-05-11 at 20:55 -0600, Karl Larsen wrote:
>> Here is what happened. I got gmfsk to compile and load and it
>> came up working just fine except for the same dam error message whan
>> you try to go to transmit:
>>
>> sound_open_for _write: opensnd: /dev/dsp Device or resource busy.
>>
>> I was never able to clear this error message so of course it doesn't
>> work.
>
> This is not a gmfsk problem. This simply means that some other program
> has the soundcard locked, and gmfsk is unable to access it. You need to
> find out what program is using the soundcard. For example, I have to
> shut down Skype before I can run gmfsk.
As root:
lsof -n | grep dsp
The first field is the process name.
-Andy
Thanks Andy. I used it and it found nothing. I started gmfsk in
receive and it found it fine.
[root@k5di ~]# lsof -n | grep dsp
gmfsk 2495 karl 16r CHR 14,3 4041
/dev/dsp
It is true there is nothing on /dev/dsp except gmfsk.
Karl
7:35 a.m.
Brian Mury wrote:
On Thu, 2006-05-11 at 20:55 -0600, Karl Larsen wrote:
> Here is what happened. I got gmfsk to compile and load and it came
> up working just fine except for the same dam error message whan you try
> to go to transmit:
>
> sound_open_for _write: opensnd: /dev/dsp Device or resource busy.
>
> I was never able to clear this error message so of course it doesn't work.
>
This is not a gmfsk problem. This simply means that some other program
has the soundcard locked, and gmfsk is unable to access it. You need to
find out what program is using the soundcard. For example, I have to
shut down Skype before I can run gmfsk.
I have tested and it appears to be gmfsk which is the user while it
is receiving. That is what I saw. But if you have gmfsk actually working
then there is some problem here I can't find.
When you press to look at the window you set mode with in FC5 there
is a circle in front of every choice. On earlier linux that doesn't happen.
Karl
1:53 p.m.
On Fri, 2006-05-12 at 06:35 -0600, Karl Larsen wrote:
I have tested and it appears to be gmfsk which is the user while
it
is receiving. That is what I saw. But if you have gmfsk actually working
then there is some problem here I can't find.
Hmmm.... I'm not sure what to suggest next. Hopefully someone else can
suggest something.
When you press to look at the window you set mode with in FC5
there
is a circle in front of every choice. On earlier linux that doesn't happen.
That's just a change to the UI, it's not a bug. One of the circles will
be filled in, that shows you the currently selected mode (same as having
a checkmark).
8:59 p.m.
Brian Mury wrote:
On Thu, 2006-05-11 at 20:55 -0600, Karl Larsen wrote:
> Here is what happened. I got gmfsk to compile and load and it came
>up working just fine except for the same dam error message whan you try
>to go to transmit:
>
>sound_open_for _write: opensnd: /dev/dsp Device or resource busy.
>
>I was never able to clear this error message so of course it doesn't work.
>
>
This is not a gmfsk problem. This simply means that some other program
has the soundcard locked, and gmfsk is unable to access it. You need to
find out what program is using the soundcard. For example, I have to
shut down Skype before I can run gmfsk.
Wait a sec. I'm not as into hardware/OS interaction as much as I'd like
to be, but are you saying that Linux can't duplex sound? Or am I
interpreting this wrong? On Winblows (yes, sadly, I use it), multiple
programs can use my laptop's sound card at once, but on Shrike I can't
listen to music and have sounds for Gaim or anything else at the same
time. Weirdly enough, that includes terminal console beeps. Is this just
my way outdated Red Hat Linux 9, or is this Linux in general?
Russell Golden
7:01 a.m.
Brian Mury:
> This is not a gmfsk problem. This simply means that some other
program
> has the soundcard locked, and gmfsk is unable to access it. You need to
> find out what program is using the soundcard. For example, I have to
> shut down Skype before I can run gmfsk.
On Mon, 2006-05-15 at 20:59 -0500, Russell Golden wrote:
I'm not as into hardware/OS interaction as much as I'd like
to be, but are you saying that Linux can't duplex sound?
Yes, it can. However, Skype uses an older sound system that doesn't.
It hogs the sound system to itself. Most of the time, if all the
programs use ALSA, they can each produce sound concurrently.
On Winblows (yes, sadly, I use it), multiple programs can use my
laptop's
sound card at once,
Even Windows has this problem, it depends on what you're doing with it.
It also depends on your soundcard.
--
(Currently running FC4, in case that's important to the thread)
Don't send private replies to my address, the mailbox is ignored.
I read messages from the public lists.
8:29 a.m.
Em Terça 16 Maio 2006 09:01, Tim escreveu:
Brian Mury:
>> This is not a gmfsk problem. This simply means that some other program
>> has the soundcard locked, and gmfsk is unable to access it. You need to
>> find out what program is using the soundcard. For example, I have to
>> shut down Skype before I can run gmfsk.
On Mon, 2006-05-15 at 20:59 -0500, Russell Golden wrote:
> I'm not as into hardware/OS interaction as much as I'd like
> to be, but are you saying that Linux can't duplex sound?
Yes, it can. However, Skype uses an older sound system that doesn't.
It hogs the sound system to itself. Most of the time, if all the
programs use ALSA, they can each produce sound concurrently.
If you're using kde, you can try to run skype with artsdsp.
If it works, skype will use arts instead of trying to access /dev/dsp
directly.
[]'s
Marcelo
8:40 a.m.
Marcelo Magno T. Sales wrote:
Em Terça 16 Maio 2006 09:01, Tim escreveu:
> Brian Mury:
>>> This is not a gmfsk problem. This simply means that some other program
>>> has the soundcard locked, and gmfsk is unable to access it. You need to
>>> find out what program is using the soundcard. For example, I have to
>>> shut down Skype before I can run gmfsk.
> On Mon, 2006-05-15 at 20:59 -0500, Russell Golden wrote:
>> I'm not as into hardware/OS interaction as much as I'd like
>> to be, but are you saying that Linux can't duplex sound?
> Yes, it can. However, Skype uses an older sound system that doesn't.
> It hogs the sound system to itself. Most of the time, if all the
> programs use ALSA, they can each produce sound concurrently.
If you're using kde, you can try to run skype with artsdsp.
If it works, skype will use arts instead of trying to access /dev/dsp
directly.
I am running kde, and both ekiga and skype suffer from some sort of
feedback problem on my end.
Can you explain how skype is forced into the artsdsp usage camp?
[]'s
Marcelo
--
Cheers, Gene
8:48 a.m.
Gene Heskett wrote:
Marcelo Magno T. Sales wrote:
> If you're using kde, you can try to run skype with artsdsp.
If it
> works, skype will use arts instead of trying to access /dev/dsp directly.
I am running kde, and both ekiga and skype suffer from some sort of
feedback problem on my end.
Can you explain how skype is forced into the artsdsp usage camp?
Launch as:
$ artsdsp skype
-- Rex
9:35 a.m.
Rex Dieter wrote:
Gene Heskett wrote:
> Marcelo Magno T. Sales wrote:
>> If you're using kde, you can try to run skype with artsdsp. If it
>> works, skype will use arts instead of trying to access /dev/dsp
>> directly.
>
>
> I am running kde, and both ekiga and skype suffer from some sort of
> feedback problem on my end.
>
> Can you explain how skype is forced into the artsdsp usage camp?
Launch as:
$ artsdsp skype
-- Rex
That seemed to take even longer to run skype, around a minute, but when
I clicked on connect to the echo123 test facility I got this:
[root@diablo skype]# artsdsp /usr/share/skype/skype
*** glibc detected *** /usr/share/skype/skype: free(): invalid pointer:
0xb593b088 ***
======= Backtrace: =========
/lib/libc.so.6[0xb1bf18]
/lib/libc.so.6(__libc_free+0x78)[0xb1f3ef]
/usr/lib/libstdc++.so.6(_ZdlPv+0x21)[0x3886b1]
/usr/lib/libstdc++.so.6(_ZNSs4_Rep10_M_destroyERKSaIcE+0x1d)[0x36435d]
/usr/lib/libstdc++.so.6(_ZNSs6assignERKSs+0xa6)[0x366796]
/usr/lib/libmcop.so.1(_ZN4Arts10DispatcherC1EPNS_9IOManagerENS0_11StartServerE+0x1156)[0x7019976]
/usr/lib/libartscbackend.so.0(arts_backend_init+0xa0)[0x257f80]
/usr/lib/libartsc.so.0(arts_init+0x239)[0x9cb889]
/usr/lib/libartsdsp.so.0(open+0x125)[0x92fbf5]
/usr/share/skype/skype[0x8417ef2]
/usr/share/skype/skype[0x84182a9]
/usr/share/skype/skype[0x83ff481]
/usr/share/skype/skype[0x83f65f1]
======= Memory map: ========
00111000-00179000 r-xp 00000000 03:05 8019348 /usr/lib/libmng.so.1.0.0
00179000-0017c000 rwxp 00067000 03:05 8019348 /usr/lib/libmng.so.1.0.0
0017c000-001a3000 r-xp 00000000 03:05 8019325
/usr/lib/libpng12.so.0.1.2.8
001a3000-001a4000 rwxp 00026000 03:05 8019325
/usr/lib/libpng12.so.0.1.2.8
001a4000-001ac000 r-xp 00000000 03:05 8019323
/usr/lib/libXrender.so.1.3.0
001ac000-001ad000 rwxp 00007000 03:05 8019323
/usr/lib/libXrender.so.1.3.0
001ad000-001af000 r-xp 00000000 03:05 8019332
/usr/lib/libXinerama.so.1.0.0
001af000-001b0000 rwxp 00001000 03:05 8019332
/usr/lib/libXinerama.so.1.0.0
001b4000-001bf000 r-xp 00000000 03:05 1867554
/lib/libgcc_s-4.1.0-20060509.so.1
001bf000-001c0000 rwxp 0000a000 03:05 1867554
/lib/libgcc_s-4.1.0-20060509.so.1
001c0000-001c9000 r-xp 00000000 03:05 8019336
/usr/lib/libXcursor.so.1.0.2
001c9000-001ca000 rwxp 00008000 03:05 8019336
/usr/lib/libXcursor.so.1.0.2
001ca000-00202000 r-xp 00000000 03:05 8019327
/usr/lib/libfontconfig.so.1.0.4
00202000-00206000 rwxp 00038000 03:05 8019327
/usr/lib/libfontconfig.so.1.0.4
00206000-00207000 rwxp 00206000 00:00 0
00207000-0020f000 r-xp 00000000 03:05 8019351 /usr/lib/libSM.so.6.0.0
0020f000-00210000 rwxp 00008000 03:05 8019351 /usr/lib/libSM.so.6.0.0
00210000-00227000 r-xp 00000000 03:05 8019350 /usr/lib/libICE.so.6.3.0
00227000-00228000 rwxp 00016000 03:05 8019350 /usr/lib/libICE.so.6.3.0
00228000-0022a000 rwxp 00228000 00:00 0
0022a000-0022e000 r-xp 00000000 03:05 8019335 /usr/lib/libXfixes.so.3.0.0
0022e000-0022f000 rwxp 00003000 03:05 8019335 /usr/lib/libXfixes.so.3.0.0
0022f000-0024e000 r-xp 00000000 03:05 8773384
/usr/lib/kde3/plugins/styles/plastik.so
0024e000-0024f000 rwxp 0001f000 03:05 8773384
/usr/lib/kde3/plugins/styles/plastik.so
0024f000-0025d000 r-xp 00000000 03:05 7997551
/usr/lib/libartscbackend.so.0.0.0
0025d000-00260000 rwxp 0000e000 03:05 7997551
/usr/lib/libartscbackend.so.0.0.0
00260000-00265000 r-xp 00000000 03:05 8000926 /usr/lib/libogg.so.0.5.3
00265000-00266000 rwxp 00004000 03:05 8000926 /usr/lib/libogg.so.0.5.3
002b1000-002d2000 r-xp 00000000 03:05 8008364 /usr/lib/libjpeg.so.62.0.0
002d2000-002d3000 rwxp 00020000 03:05 8008364 /usr/lib/libjpeg.so.62.0.0
002d3000-003b5000 r-xp 00000000 03:05 8019341 /usr/lib/libstdc++.so.6.0.8
003b5000-003b9000 r-xp 000e1000 03:05 8019341 /usr/lib/libstdc++.so.6.0.8
003b9000-003ba000 rwxp 000e5000 03:05 8019341 /usr/lib/libstdc++.so.6.0.8
003ba000-003c0000 rwxp 003ba000 00:00 0
00404000-00430000 r-xp 00000000 03:05 8019357 /usr/lib/libkdefx.so.4.2.0
00430000-00431000 rwxp 0002b000 03:05 8019357 /usr/lib/libkdefx.so.4.2.0
00431000-00432000 rwxp 00431000 00:00 0
00448000-0044f000 r-xp 00000000 03:05 8019421
/usr/lib/libvorbisfile.so.3.1.1
0044f000-00450000 rwxp 00006000 03:05 8019421
/usr/lib/libvorbisfile.so.3.1.1
00457000-0046a000 r-xp 00000000 03:05 8019349 /usr/lib/libXft.so.2.1.2
0046a000-0046b000 rwxp 00012000 03:05 8019349 /usr/lib/libXft.so.2.1.2
0048b000-004bc000 r-xp 00000000 03:05 8011606 /usr/lib/liblcms.so.1.0.15
004bc000-004bd000 rwxp 00030000 03:05 8011606 /usr/lib/liblcms.so.1.0.15
004bd000-004c0000 rwxp 004bd000 00:00 0
004d4000-004dd000 r-xp 00000000 03:05 8380614
/usr/lib/qt-3.3/plugins/inputmethods/libqimsw-Aborted
[root@diablo skype]#
Whats next?
--
Cheers, Gene
9:52 a.m.
Gene Heskett wrote:
Rex Dieter wrote:
> Gene Heskett wrote:
>> Can you explain how skype is forced into the artsdsp usage
camp?
> Launch as:
> $ artsdsp skype
That seemed to take even longer to run skype, around a minute, but
when
I clicked on connect to the echo123 test facility I got this:
[root@diablo skype]# artsdsp /usr/share/skype/skype
*** glibc detected *** /usr/share/skype/skype: free(): invalid pointer:
0xb593b088 ***
...
Whats next?
You could try
export GLIBCXX_FORCE_NEW=1
to see if that helps.
-- Rex
10:31 a.m.
Rex Dieter wrote:
Gene Heskett wrote:
> Rex Dieter wrote:
>> Gene Heskett wrote:
>>> Can you explain how skype is forced into the artsdsp usage camp?
>> Launch as:
>> $ artsdsp skype
> That seemed to take even longer to run skype, around a minute, but
> when I clicked on connect to the echo123 test facility I got this:
> [root@diablo skype]# artsdsp /usr/share/skype/skype
> *** glibc detected *** /usr/share/skype/skype: free(): invalid
> pointer: 0xb593b088 ***
...
> Whats next?
You could try
export GLIBCXX_FORCE_NEW=1
to see if that helps.
It didn't make any real difference that I could tell:
[root@diablo skype]# export GLIBCXX_FORCE_NEW=1
[root@diablo skype]# artsdsp /usr/share/skype/skype
*** glibc detected *** /usr/share/skype/skype: double free or corruption
(out): 0x093e6bd8 ***
Thats slightly different, but the rest appears very similar.
Is there some other program I could use as a test case for artsdsp?
Something thats know to work correctly 100% of the time?
-- Rex
--
Cheers, Gene
11:45 a.m.
Gene Heskett wrote:
Rex Dieter wrote:
> Gene Heskett wrote:
>
>> Rex Dieter wrote:
>
>
>>> Gene Heskett wrote:
>
>
>>>> Can you explain how skype is forced into the artsdsp usage camp?
>
>
>>> Launch as:
>>> $ artsdsp skype
>
>
>> That seemed to take even longer to run skype, around a minute, but
>> when I clicked on connect to the echo123 test facility I got this:
>> [root@diablo skype]# artsdsp /usr/share/skype/skype
>> *** glibc detected *** /usr/share/skype/skype: free(): invalid
>> pointer: 0xb593b088 ***
>
> ...
>
>> Whats next?
>
>
> You could try
> export GLIBCXX_FORCE_NEW=1
> to see if that helps.
>
It didn't make any real difference that I could tell:
[root@diablo skype]# export GLIBCXX_FORCE_NEW=1
[root@diablo skype]# artsdsp /usr/share/skype/skype
*** glibc detected *** /usr/share/skype/skype: double free or corruption
(out): 0x093e6bd8 ***
OK, double free is avoidable too (but it's really a skype bug):
export MALLOC_CHECK=0
-- Rex
7:25 a.m.
Russell Golden wrote:
Brian Mury wrote:
> On Thu, 2006-05-11 at 20:55 -0600, Karl Larsen wrote:
>
>
>> Here is what happened. I got gmfsk to compile and load and it
>> came up working just fine except for the same dam error message whan
>> you try to go to transmit:
>>
>> sound_open_for _write: opensnd: /dev/dsp Device or resource busy.
>>
>> I was never able to clear this error message so of course it doesn't
>> work.
>>
>
> This is not a gmfsk problem. This simply means that some other program
> has the soundcard locked, and gmfsk is unable to access it. You need to
> find out what program is using the soundcard. For example, I have to
> shut down Skype before I can run gmfsk.
>
>
>
>
Wait a sec. I'm not as into hardware/OS interaction as much as I'd
like to be, but are you saying that Linux can't duplex sound? Or am I
interpreting this wrong? On Winblows (yes, sadly, I use it), multiple
programs can use my laptop's sound card at once, but on Shrike I can't
listen to music and have sounds for Gaim or anything else at the same
time. Weirdly enough, that includes terminal console beeps. Is this
just my way outdated Red Hat Linux 9, or is this Linux in general?
What I found
on FC4 is that the sound mixer is the culprit. It comes
out of the box in simplex mode. You can play with the mixer and break
tiny chains and finally it works in duplex made.
The FC5 wrinkle is that it sends up a warning when it is not set up
in duplex. I might be able to get FC5 working with what I know now....
Karl
Russell Golden
10:17 p.m.
On Tue, 2006-05-16 at 06:25 -0600, Karl Larsen wrote:
What I found on FC4 is that the sound mixer is the culprit. It comes
out of the box in simplex mode. You can play with the mixer and break
tiny chains and finally it works in duplex made.
What are you referring to, here?
If you open up the Gnome volume control, those chain-looking links below
the volume controls simply lock the left and right volume sliders to run
together. Unlock them, and you can control the left volume
independently from the right volume.
Do you mean something else?
--
(Currently running FC4, in case that's important to the thread)
Don't send private replies to my address, the mailbox is ignored.
I read messages from the public lists.
10:43 a.m.
On Thu, 2006-05-11 at 07:20, Rex Dieter wrote:
> I upgraded to FC5 because it was claimed that it is better. But some
> of my best "legacy" software in X-windows looks diffirent and does not
> work well.
Without mentioning any details (what software? what problems?), no-one
can/will fix it.
I thought someone else mentioned that some of the fonts available
in fc4 were not included in fc5. I don't recall the details but
that's a likely reason for looking different.
--
Les Mikesell
lesmikesell(a)gmail.com
5:22 p.m.
On Thu, 2006-05-11 at 10:43 -0500, Les Mikesell wrote:
On Thu, 2006-05-11 at 07:20, Rex Dieter wrote:
>
> > I upgraded to FC5 because it was claimed that it is better. But some
> > of my best "legacy" software in X-windows looks diffirent and does
not
> > work well.
>
> Without mentioning any details (what software? what problems?), no-one
> can/will fix it.
I thought someone else mentioned that some of the fonts available
in fc4 were not included in fc5. I don't recall the details but
that's a likely reason for looking different.
It's possible that the mscore fonts available on Stanton-finley's FC5
installation or some other install sites would fix that problem.
LX
--
°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°
Individuals who make their abode in vitreous edifices
would be well advised to refrain from catapulting
projectiles.
Registered Linux User #268899 http://counter.li.org/
°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°
1:52 p.m.
Gilboa Davara wrote:
On Wed, 2006-05-10 at 17:02 -0600, Karl Larsen wrote:
> I have had it. There are just too many new ways to do things and
>lots of Gnome changes and I'm about fed up. It's back to dear old FC4
>where it all works well. I hope they fix the problems in FC5 for FC6
>when it emerges.
>
>Karl
>
Beside ranting in the ML, what have -you- done to improve things?
What an absurd criticism. Not everyone should expect to be
a developer in order to be a user.
Mike
--
p="p=%c%s%c;main(){printf(p,34,p,34);}";main(){printf(p,34,p,34);}
This message made from 100% recycled bits.
You have found the bank of Larn.
I can explain it for you, but I can't understand it for you.
I speak only for myself, and I am unanimous in that!
3:32 p.m.
On Tue, 2006-05-30 at 13:52 -0500, Mike McCarty wrote:
Gilboa Davara wrote:
> On Wed, 2006-05-10 at 17:02 -0600, Karl Larsen wrote:
>
>> I have had it. There are just too many new ways to do things and
>>lots of Gnome changes and I'm about fed up. It's back to dear old FC4
>>where it all works well. I hope they fix the problems in FC5 for FC6
>>when it emerges.
>>
>>Karl
>>
>
>
> Beside ranting in the ML, what have -you- done to improve things?
What an absurd criticism. Not everyone should expect to be
a developer in order to be a user.
Mike
--
p="p=%c%s%c;main(){printf(p,34,p,34);}";main(){printf(p,34,p,34);}
This message made from 100% recycled bits.
You have found the bank of Larn.
I can explain it for you, but I can't understand it for you.
I speak only for myself, and I am unanimous in that!
This should solve your problem: https://www.redhat.com/apps/commerce/
Lot's of support and you only need to update if you want to.
Tim...
8:26 p.m.
On Tue, 2006-05-30 at 13:52 -0500, Mike McCarty wrote:
> Beside ranting in the ML, what have -you- done to improve
things?
What an absurd criticism. Not everyone should expect to be
a developer in order to be a user.
It is not absurd at all. You are falsely assuming that one has to be a
developer in order to improve things.
Cheers
Steffen.
12:57 p.m.
Steffen Kluge wrote:
On Tue, 2006-05-30 at 13:52 -0500, Mike McCarty wrote:
>>Beside ranting in the ML, what have -you- done to improve things?
>>
>>
>What an absurd criticism. Not everyone should expect to be
>a developer in order to be a user.
>
>
It is not absurd at all. You are falsely assuming that one has to be a
developer in order to improve things.
Cheers
Steffen.
*sigh* will you people quit arguing? it doesn't matter anymore.
--
Russell Golden
"A person is smart. People are dumb, ignorant animals and you know it."
--Agent Kay, MIB
"Speak softly and carry a big stick, and you will go far."
--Theodore "Teddy" Roosevelt
"Hello! Hello! Anybody home?! Think, McFly! Think!"
--Biff
"Never argue with an idiot. They will lower you to their level then beat you with
experience."
--Karissa Flaming
"Life is like a math book. There are lots of questions, but only the odd ones are
answered for you."
--Nick Riccio
1:34 p.m.
On Mon, 2006-06-05 at 12:57 -0500, Russell Golden wrote:
Steffen Kluge wrote:
>On Tue, 2006-05-30 at 13:52 -0500, Mike McCarty wrote:
>
>
>>>Beside ranting in the ML, what have -you- done to improve things?
>>>
>>>
>>What an absurd criticism. Not everyone should expect to be
>>a developer in order to be a user.
>>
>>
>
>It is not absurd at all. You are falsely assuming that one has to be a
>developer in order to improve things.
>
>Cheers
>Steffen.
>
>
>
*sigh* will you people quit arguing? it doesn't matter anymore.
----
given that you have responded to a thread that died more than 5 days
ago, you have singlehandedly resurrected it.
Craig
6546
days inactive
6572
days old
93 comments
34 participants
participants (34)
-
Andy Green -
Arthur Pemberton -
Brian Mury -
Christofer C. Bell -
Claude Jones -
Craig White -
Ed Greshko -
Filippos Klironomos -
Gene Heskett -
Gilboa Davara -
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Johnny -
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Lauri -
Les Mikesell -
Lyvim Xaphir -
Marcelo Magno T. Sales -
Mike McCarty -
Mikkel -
Rex Dieter -
Ric Moore -
Rick Stevens -
Rob Brown-Bayliss -
Russell Golden -
Scot L. Harris -
Steffen Kluge -
taharka -
Tim -
Tim -
Todd Zullinger -
Yonas Abraham