Gene Heskett wrote: And the last time I looked, a bit over a month ago, there was no hint of
Let me Google that for you: http://lmgtfy.com/?q=pulse+audio gets us to: http://www.pulseaudio.org/ which pointed us to: http://0pointer.de/lennart/projects/pavucontrol/
Pat ---
On Friday 29 May 2009, Pat Kane wrote:
Gene Heskett wrote: And the last time I looked, a bit over a month ago, there was no hint of
Let me Google that for you: http://lmgtfy.com/?q=pulse+audio gets us to: http://www.pulseaudio.org/ which pointed us to: http://0pointer.de/lennart/projects/pavucontrol/
Pat
BTDT. Wasn't interested enough in advertising crap to buy the T-shirt.
And this latter link contains squat about how to set it up, and whats required to make it work. To quote from it: "Works perfectly". And it is even referred to as the Pulse Audio Volume Control. No claims that it is THE configuration tool.
So I reinstalled it, as stated in a previous message, with so far zero effect.
Do I have to restart X?, reboot?, locate a virgin (there is a very short supply of them in my age category hereabouts, I'd go so far as to say they are pure unobtainium) to sacrifice?
But I think the best question of all is:
Why can't all of this audio crap have a 'service audio restart'? function?
On Saturday 30 May 2009, Gene Heskett wrote:
On Friday 29 May 2009, Pat Kane wrote:
Gene Heskett wrote: And the last time I looked, a bit over a month ago, there was no hint of
Let me Google that for you: http://lmgtfy.com/?q=pulse+audio gets us to: http://www.pulseaudio.org/ which pointed us to: http://0pointer.de/lennart/projects/pavucontrol/
Pat
BTDT. Wasn't interested enough in advertising crap to buy the T-shirt.
And this latter link contains squat about how to set it up, and whats required to make it work. To quote from it: "Works perfectly". And it is even referred to as the Pulse Audio Volume Control. No claims that it is THE configuration tool.
So I reinstalled it, as stated in a previous message, with so far zero effect.
Do I have to restart X?, reboot?, locate a virgin (there is a very short supply of them in my age category hereabouts, I'd go so far as to say they are pure unobtainium) to sacrifice?
But I think the best question of all is:
Why can't all of this audio crap have a 'service audio restart'? function?
I've since rebooted, trying a different kernel build not related to this.
On the reboot, it logged: May 30 10:02:11 coyote pulseaudio[4417]: alsa-util.c: Cannot find fallback mixer control "PCM" or mixer control is no combination of switch/volume. May 30 10:02:11 coyote pulseaudio[4417]: alsa-util.c: Cannot find fallback mixer control "Mic" or mixer control is no combination of switch/volume.
So this may explain by inference what isn't right. Clues please.
And xinetd is going crazy, saying it reconfiguring my amanda services: May 30 10:25:20 coyote xinetd[2388]: Starting reconfiguration May 30 10:25:20 coyote xinetd[2388]: Swapping defaults May 30 10:25:20 coyote xinetd[2388]: readjusting service amanda May 30 10:25:20 coyote xinetd[2388]: readjusting service amandaidx May 30 10:25:20 coyote xinetd[2388]: readjusting service amidxtape May 30 10:25:20 coyote xinetd[2388]: Reconfigured: new=0 old=3 dropped=0 (services)
That is the last of about 100 stanza's of that in the messages log, never before seen.
Now everything but padevchooser runs. From the web pages, it needs avahi and that is also running. But when run, it outputs nothing, and logs nothing, it just sits there. A ctrl+c returns the shell prompt instantly. Anybody have a clue as to whats wrong there?
In paprefs (I had to reinstall several other pieces to get everything the web page mentions) it now shows 2 hardware output channels and 2 hardware input channels, finding the HDINTEL stuff I don't use first. Marked as default but I moved the check marks to the audigy 2 hardware in both cases, and turned the volume on the audigy 2 up to 480%, and now I have the pling of incoming mail from kde audible at a low level.
I think the only reason I have any audio is because I have that virtual device that links all outputs enabled. I just unchecked that to see if I lose my audio.
Yup, AFU. On cnn, I get white noise at speaker and hearing destroying levels, not controllable by ANY volume control slider except the one below the playing video, and that is essentially a mute button when its moved ALL the way left. One pixel up and my speaker cones are being shredded by white noise from an unknown src.
How do I totally make it use the AC97 stuff as the secondary channel, not the primary?
I would like to eventually use the AC97 stuff on the mobo for skype or other internet telephone use.
I think I'll remove it this evening and reboot again (hell of a way to run a ^%$ train IMO) if no one has good ideas to offer. Right now I'm going up up one of the neighbors with my sawzall, a 3 pound mall, & etc and help him replace a very crooked post in his back deck.
-- Cheers, Gene "There are four boxes to be used in defense of liberty: soap, ballot, jury, and ammo. Please use in that order." -Ed Howdershelt (Author) The NRA is offering FREE Associate memberships to anyone who wants them. https://www.nrahq.org/nrabonus/accept-membership.asp
Most seminars have a happy ending. Everyone's glad when they're over.
Gene Heskett wrote:
I've since rebooted, trying a different kernel build not related to this.
On the reboot, it logged: May 30 10:02:11 coyote pulseaudio[4417]: alsa-util.c: Cannot find fallback mixer control "PCM" or mixer control is no combination of switch/volume. May 30 10:02:11 coyote pulseaudio[4417]: alsa-util.c: Cannot find fallback mixer control "Mic" or mixer control is no combination of switch/volume.
So this may explain by inference what isn't right. Clues please.
You may want to check /etc/asound.conf. I had a problem where it had the wrong device listed. The file is generated by system-config-soundcard, but it seams to have problems correcting it when it makes a mistake. If I could reporduce it, I would file a bug report...
Mike
2009/5/30 Gene Heskett gene.heskett@verizon.net:
Why can't all of this audio crap have a 'service audio restart'? function?
Probably because there isn't a system-wide audio service. The pulseaudio server usually runs in the user's desktop session.
On Saturday 30 May 2009, Joonas Sarajärvi wrote:
2009/5/30 Gene Heskett gene.heskett@verizon.net:
Why can't all of this audio crap have a 'service audio restart'? function?
Probably because there isn't a system-wide audio service. The pulseaudio server usually runs in the user's desktop session.
Ok, so I add or remove a line in one of the /etc/pulse files. What do I have to kill and restart to make it re-read those config files and put the effect into service? Is a restart of X sufficient?
Right now, the only thing working is the kde sound effects. Any other source, like a new video with sound, is pure white noise at 120 db above the kde sound effects. Since I like to tour the news sites of an evening, I'll remove what I installed and reboot in about an hour if no helpful advice seems to be forthcoming.
Also, I tried to join the pulse mailing list, but FF had a whole cow over the https certificate, and I have never seen such a strong warning from FF before so I didn't ok it. Could someone advise Lennert that his sites ssh certificate is dead or compromised?
Thanks Joonas.
-- Joonas Sarajärvi muepsj@gmail.com
From: "Gene Heskett" gene.heskett@verizon.net Sent: Saturday, 2009/May/30 17:09
On Saturday 30 May 2009, Joonas Sarajärvi wrote:
2009/5/30 Gene Heskett gene.heskett@verizon.net:
Why can't all of this audio crap have a 'service audio restart'? function?
Probably because there isn't a system-wide audio service. The pulseaudio server usually runs in the user's desktop session.
Ok, so I add or remove a line in one of the /etc/pulse files. What do I have to kill and restart to make it re-read those config files and put the effect into service? Is a restart of X sufficient?
Right now, the only thing working is the kde sound effects. Any other source, like a new video with sound, is pure white noise at 120 db above the kde sound effects. Since I like to tour the news sites of an evening, I'll remove what I installed and reboot in about an hour if no helpful advice seems to be forthcoming.
Also, I tried to join the pulse mailing list, but FF had a whole cow over the https certificate, and I have never seen such a strong warning from FF before so I didn't ok it. Could someone advise Lennert that his sites ssh certificate is dead or compromised?
Thanks Joonas.
-- Joonas Sarajärvi muepsj@gmail.com
-- Cheers, Gene
You'd think if Linux and Fedora were so hot and wonderful there would be a system wide audio service that actually worked from consoles as well as from X. I need both to work to make my setup function correctly. So I am stuck, crippled. That does not seem to be a problem in Windows with multiple sessions as with Windows Server editions.
{^_^}
2009/5/31 jdow jdow@earthlink.net:
You'd think if Linux and Fedora were so hot and wonderful there would be a system wide audio service that actually worked from consoles as well as from X. I need both to work to make my setup function correctly. So I am stuck, crippled. That does not seem to be a problem in Windows with multiple sessions as with Windows Server editions.
While not usually necessary, Pulseaudio can be run as a system-wide service.
http://www.pulseaudio.org/wiki/SystemWideInstance
I don't know if the instructions work on Fedora (The example is for Debian), but hopefully someone more informed can enlighten us on that.
I also don't know if the vt sessions also start pulseaudio if it isn't running. At least I have had audio working nice when using a vt.
jdow wrote:
From: "Gene Heskett" gene.heskett@verizon.net Sent: Saturday, 2009/May/30 17:09
On Saturday 30 May 2009, Joonas Sarajärvi wrote:
2009/5/30 Gene Heskett gene.heskett@verizon.net:
Why can't all of this audio crap have a 'service audio restart'? function?
Probably because there isn't a system-wide audio service. The pulseaudio server usually runs in the user's desktop session.
Ok, so I add or remove a line in one of the /etc/pulse files. What do I have to kill and restart to make it re-read those config files and put the effect into service? Is a restart of X sufficient?
Right now, the only thing working is the kde sound effects. Any other source, like a new video with sound, is pure white noise at 120 db above the kde sound effects. Since I like to tour the news sites of an evening, I'll remove what I installed and reboot in about an hour if no helpful advice seems to be forthcoming.
Also, I tried to join the pulse mailing list, but FF had a whole cow over the https certificate, and I have never seen such a strong warning from FF before so I didn't ok it. Could someone advise Lennert that his sites ssh certificate is dead or compromised?
Thanks Joonas.
-- Joonas Sarajärvi muepsj@gmail.com
-- Cheers, Gene
You'd think if Linux and Fedora were so hot and wonderful there would be a system wide audio service that actually worked from consoles as well as from X. I need both to work to make my setup function correctly. So I am stuck, crippled. That does not seem to be a problem in Windows with multiple sessions as with Windows Server editions.
{^_^}
The last time I ran a system without X alsa worked fine. As said by others, don't stop pulseaudio, remove it. Even then it leave garbage, better to not install it if forcing it on people wasn't an issue with someone. There ought to be a choice between at install time, do you want to (a) play and record sound on your system or (b) play an interactive game called try to make PA work right?
On Tuesday 02 June 2009, Bill Davidsen wrote:
jdow wrote:
From: "Gene Heskett" gene.heskett@verizon.net Sent: Saturday, 2009/May/30 17:09
On Saturday 30 May 2009, Joonas Sarajärvi wrote:
2009/5/30 Gene Heskett gene.heskett@verizon.net:
Why can't all of this audio crap have a 'service audio restart'? function?
Probably because there isn't a system-wide audio service. The pulseaudio server usually runs in the user's desktop session.
Ok, so I add or remove a line in one of the /etc/pulse files. What do I have to kill and restart to make it re-read those config files and put the effect into service? Is a restart of X sufficient?
Right now, the only thing working is the kde sound effects. Any other source, like a new video with sound, is pure white noise at 120 db above the kde sound effects. Since I like to tour the news sites of an evening, I'll remove what I installed and reboot in about an hour if no helpful advice seems to be forthcoming.
Also, I tried to join the pulse mailing list, but FF had a whole cow over the https certificate, and I have never seen such a strong warning from FF before so I didn't ok it. Could someone advise Lennert that his sites ssh certificate is dead or compromised?
Thanks Joonas.
-- Joonas Sarajärvi muepsj@gmail.com
-- Cheers, Gene
You'd think if Linux and Fedora were so hot and wonderful there would be a system wide audio service that actually worked from consoles as well as from X. I need both to work to make my setup function correctly. So I am stuck, crippled. That does not seem to be a problem in Windows with multiple sessions as with Windows Server editions.
{^_^}
The last time I ran a system without X alsa worked fine. As said by others, don't stop pulseaudio, remove it. Even then it leave garbage, better to not install it if forcing it on people wasn't an issue with someone. There ought to be a choice between at install time, do you want to (a) play and record sound on your system or (b) play an interactive game called try to make PA work right?
I would just as soon leave that chapter out of my lifes book. The trials will shorten the book noticeably.
-- Bill Davidsen davidsen@tmr.com "We have more to fear from the bungling of the incompetent than from the machinations of the wicked." - from Slashdot
Gene Heskett wrote:
Also, I tried to join the pulse mailing list, but FF had a whole cow over the https certificate, and I have never seen such a strong warning from FF before so I didn't ok it. Could someone advise Lennert that his sites ssh certificate is dead or compromised?
Most likely it's just a self-signed SSL certificate. Very common, and Firefox stupidly throws a fit over it (which is dumb because it encourages sites to just use unencrypted HTTP instead, which is even less secure, yet gets through with no warning). Just OK the certificate.
Kevin Kofler
On Sunday 31 May 2009, Kevin Kofler wrote:
Gene Heskett wrote:
Also, I tried to join the pulse mailing list, but FF had a whole cow over the https certificate, and I have never seen such a strong warning from FF before so I didn't ok it. Could someone advise Lennert that his sites ssh certificate is dead or compromised?
Most likely it's just a self-signed SSL certificate. Very common, and Firefox stupidly throws a fit over it (which is dumb because it encourages sites to just use unencrypted HTTP instead, which is even less secure, yet gets through with no warning). Just OK the certificate.
Kevin Kofler
Its a self signed certificate, apparently it is more paranoid about that than it is about an expired certificate. But then since its a redhat certificate, should it not be a properly signed certificate. Seems to me like it should be.
I did, and went thru the knothole to subscribe, and that was fun. The new kmail apparently is messing with the hash numbers they use to confirm a subscription, and my reply to the confirmation message bounced exactly as it did for trying to join the nut-users list. The only way I could confirm was to use the web page link. That was about 14 hours ago, and I have rx'd exactly zero messages after the confirmation was rx'd. For all the pulse problems extant, that doesn't feel right.
I also removed those 4 pieces that I had installed, and rebooted yet another time, and now I can listen to the news sites again. With the enablers installed, I get white noise for the audio with a news video I'm watching, and its about 120 db louder than the kde sound effects which were the only thing working, and I had to crank the PA gain to +480% to get that to work.
As a config tool, pavucontrol sucks. Yes, it shows all the HDA (or whatever that acronym is) stuff that is on this mobo (or on this ATI based HD2400-Pro (rv610) video card but not bonded out for use, I wasn't able to determine which from what it was telling me), but while you can reset the defaults to use the audigy 2, you cannot disable or remove an unwanted choice. And I have NDI where it (pa) was getting the speaker shredding white noise, which FWIW, was only present when story was playing. And no one here seems to have run into this before as I didn't get anything that might have been a clue as to what to do next from this list in about 24 or so hours. No fault of yours, apparently I have the most unique ASUS motherboard ever made, an M2N-SLI Deluxe.
So obviously what is nuke able, has been nuked, I've rebooted, and everything is back to working.
What I take home from this experiment is that you want us to use it cuz it sounds interesting to you, but that no one other than Lennert has a clue how it works. And there may be job assignment walls around that preclude his using any paid time to support users with problem hardware.
IMO, if this is to be the default for fedora, then time should be allowed for him to support those installs which are problematic.
On 05/31/2009 08:50 PM, Gene Heskett wrote:
Its a self signed certificate, apparently it is more paranoid about that than it is about an expired certificate. But then since its a redhat certificate, should it not be a properly signed certificate. Seems to me like it should be.
It is not a Red Hat site. I am not sure why you think it is. It is his private website as confirmed by both the certificate as well as the whois records.
IMO, if this is to be the default for fedora, then time should be allowed for him to support those installs which are problematic.
Yes, assuming you post to a place where he can see it. That would be either bugzilla or upstream mailing list.
Rahul
On Sunday 31 May 2009, Rahul Sundaram wrote:
On 05/31/2009 08:50 PM, Gene Heskett wrote:
Its a self signed certificate, apparently it is more paranoid about that than it is about an expired certificate. But then since its a redhat certificate, should it not be a properly signed certificate. Seems to me like it should be.
It is not a Red Hat site. I am not sure why you think it is. It is his private website as confirmed by both the certificate as well as the whois records.
IMO, if this is to be the default for fedora, then time should be allowed for him to support those installs which are problematic.
Yes, assuming you post to a place where he can see it. That would be either bugzilla or upstream mailing list.
Rahul
Humm, what email msgs I have seen from Lennart, came from a redhat.com address. And, from that pulseaudio.org web page: ------------------- People ¶
PulseAudio has been developed by:
* Lennart Poettering (mezcalero) through his employer Red Hat -------------------
That speaks volumes. So also does my unfortunate miss-spelling of his name in one or 3 messages. My apologies.
Thanks Rahul.
On 05/31/2009 09:38 PM, Gene Heskett wrote:
Humm, what email msgs I have seen from Lennart, came from a redhat.com address.
Yes. He is currently employed by Red Hat but he was not when he started the project. Red Hat generally hires people who are already working in Free software projects.
Rahul
Once upon a time, Kevin Kofler kevin.kofler@chello.at said:
Most likely it's just a self-signed SSL certificate. Very common, and Firefox stupidly throws a fit over it (which is dumb because it encourages sites to just use unencrypted HTTP instead, which is even less secure, yet gets through with no warning). Just OK the certificate.
HTTPS with an unknown self-signed cert is barely any more secure than unencrypted HTTP, since a man-in-the-middle attack could just be replacing the cert and decrypting all communications.
However, the reason to "throw a fit" is that end-users have been trained that "HTTPS == secure". They know that HTTP is not secure, but they don't know the details of how SSL/TLS work to know that "HTTPS with unknown cert != secure".
On Sunday 31 May 2009, Chris Adams wrote:
Once upon a time, Kevin Kofler kevin.kofler@chello.at said:
Most likely it's just a self-signed SSL certificate. Very common, and Firefox stupidly throws a fit over it (which is dumb because it encourages sites to just use unencrypted HTTP instead, which is even less secure, yet gets through with no warning). Just OK the certificate.
HTTPS with an unknown self-signed cert is barely any more secure than unencrypted HTTP, since a man-in-the-middle attack could just be replacing the cert and decrypting all communications.
However, the reason to "throw a fit" is that end-users have been trained that "HTTPS == secure". They know that HTTP is not secure, but they don't know the details of how SSL/TLS work to know that "HTTPS with unknown cert != secure".
+1000
-- Chris Adams cmadams@hiwaay.net Systems and Network Administrator - HiWAAY Internet Services I don't speak for anybody but myself - that's enough trouble.
Yeah, my mouth has been known to write checks I then had to cover. :)
Chris Adams cmadams@hiwaay.net writes:
HTTPS with an unknown self-signed cert is barely any more secure than unencrypted HTTP, since a man-in-the-middle attack could just be replacing the cert and decrypting all communications.
It is a shame that there isn't a simple documented way to add other CA's to Firefox's approved list or some system global way to add CA's for all programs looking for pki certs.
I for one don't really trust external CA's for access to my computers since I don't know their verification policy. For all I know one of them can be tricked into handing out a *.wsrcc.com certificate. I feel much more secure knowing that anyone signing with my CA first has to get hold of the signing key and then decrypt it.
As for the man-in-the-middle attack, I'd imagine the biggest usage case is an eavesdropped-in-the-middle and not someone that was able to break the data stream and insert themselves. Having an encrypted channel with a slightly nebulous endpoint is still better than having an unencrypted channel.
-wolfgang
Once upon a time, Wolfgang S. Rupprecht wolfgang.rupprecht+gnus200905@gmail.com said:
It is a shame that there isn't a simple documented way to add other CA's to Firefox's approved list or some system global way to add CA's for all programs looking for pki certs.
For Firefox, you just have to publish the cert in DER format (with the MIME type application/x-x509-ca-cert). If you click on such a link, Firefox will ask you if you wish to trust the cert (and what classes of things you trust it for).
On Sun, May 31, 2009 at 13:08:08 -0700, "Wolfgang S. Rupprecht" wolfgang.rupprecht+gnus200905@gmail.com wrote:
As for the man-in-the-middle attack, I'd imagine the biggest usage case is an eavesdropped-in-the-middle and not someone that was able to break the data stream and insert themselves. Having an encrypted channel with a slightly nebulous endpoint is still better than having an unencrypted channel.
For average Joes, the most common problem is going to be that their machine is compromized. Extra security of https over http for them is barely a blip.
On Sun, May 31, 2009 at 13:26:17 -0500, Chris Adams cmadams@hiwaay.net wrote:
Once upon a time, Kevin Kofler kevin.kofler@chello.at said:
Most likely it's just a self-signed SSL certificate. Very common, and Firefox stupidly throws a fit over it (which is dumb because it encourages sites to just use unencrypted HTTP instead, which is even less secure, yet gets through with no warning). Just OK the certificate.
HTTPS with an unknown self-signed cert is barely any more secure than unencrypted HTTP, since a man-in-the-middle attack could just be replacing the cert and decrypting all communications.
No it is a much harder attack than snooping. To do man in the middle you need to be able to take packets out of the stream and redirect them. This needs to be done in real time and if you guess wrong about whether the other end knows what the certificate is, people are going to notice you doing it.
However, the reason to "throw a fit" is that end-users have been trained that "HTTPS == secure". They know that HTTP is not secure, but they don't know the details of how SSL/TLS work to know that "HTTPS with unknown cert != secure".
And be sure to note that certificate signed by RSA, Thawte or whoever doesn't equate to secure either. Unless you have verified the end certificate yourself you don't know that the organization on the other end is who you really mean to be talking to.
Once upon a time, Bruno Wolff III bruno@wolff.to said:
On Sun, May 31, 2009 at 13:26:17 -0500, Chris Adams cmadams@hiwaay.net wrote:
HTTPS with an unknown self-signed cert is barely any more secure than unencrypted HTTP, since a man-in-the-middle attack could just be replacing the cert and decrypting all communications.
No it is a much harder attack than snooping. To do man in the middle you need to be able to take packets out of the stream and redirect them. This needs to be done in real time and if you guess wrong about whether the other end knows what the certificate is, people are going to notice you doing it.
ISTR if you can snoop you can hijack the TCP session setup by responding first (aren't out-of-window packets ignored?). You don't have to cause the "real" responses to be dropped, you just have to respond faster.
And be sure to note that certificate signed by RSA, Thawte or whoever doesn't equate to secure either. Unless you have verified the end certificate yourself you don't know that the organization on the other end is who you really mean to be talking to.
You are trusting that the CAs have done the verification, which they do (to differing degrees).
On Mon, Jun 01, 2009 at 14:01:54 -0500, Chris Adams cmadams@hiwaay.net wrote:
ISTR if you can snoop you can hijack the TCP session setup by responding first (aren't out-of-window packets ignored?). You don't have to cause the "real" responses to be dropped, you just have to respond faster.
That's still an active attack. You have to be able to see the incoming packets and try to send replies back fast. You need to be doing this from some place that doesn't do proper egress filtering or very close to the destination. This is still hard to do broadly, unlike being able to peruse through all of the traffic that goes through major exchange points on the internet.
And be sure to note that certificate signed by RSA, Thawte or whoever doesn't equate to secure either. Unless you have verified the end certificate yourself you don't know that the organization on the other end is who you really mean to be talking to.
You are trusting that the CAs have done the verification, which they do (to differing degrees).
They don't have a way to verify that the site I am going to is the one I mean to. It isn't that hard to trick someone to going to a valid https site, that isn't really the one they mean to. And Firefox doesn't try to help with this case at all.
The whole hierarchical design is a bad fit for what it is trying to do. Web of trust would be a lot better. But even with the current system the Firefox UI could do more to help people notice changes.
Bruno Wolff III wrote:
The whole hierarchical design is a bad fit for what it is trying to do.
+1
Unfortunately, it's what makes the certificate cartels their huge amounts of $$$, so they'll keep lobbying browser developers into supporting their ¢a$h ¢ow. :-(
We really need a system which provides actual trust. The current one only proves that somebody paid enough mon€¥ to the cartels to get a certificate.
Kevin Kofler
On Sat, 2009-05-30 at 09:33 -0400, Gene Heskett wrote:
Why can't all of this audio crap have a 'service audio restart'? function?
Seconded!
There's a way of doing something like that, to restart the daemon started per user, but I never remember the magic incantation. I always have to google it.
Alternatively, don't use pulseaudio the way Fedora does. Don't start a personal daemon with each user's session. Start one central server, and twiddle Fedora to make use of it.
I don't recall the details of how to do that, but it seems familiar that you'd be adding your users to a pulseaudio group.
-
Bill Davidsen -
Bruno Wolff III -
Chris Adams -
Gene Heskett -
jdow -
Joonas Sarajärvi -
Kevin Kofler -
Mikkel -
Pat Kane -
Rahul Sundaram -
Tim -
Wolfgang S. Rupprecht