Re: yum upgrade

[EGO-II.1]

I wonder if they'll ever automate the upgrade process?.... to make it easier to go from one version to the next?.... seems like it would help make the process smoother for newbies....

Sent from Eddie's Cell Phone

----- Reply message -----
From: "Reindl Harald" 
To: 
Subject: yum upgrade
Date: Thu, Mar 28, 2013 5:18 am

Am 28.03.2013 05:09, schrieb Richard Vickery:
> Sorry for the double-posting:
>
> I've been to the fedora-upgrade (wiki) sites and got confused. Can someone give me a shortened, simplistic version
> for stupid people (ie: myself) of how to use the yum-upgrade command?

there is no simplistic way for
https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Upgrading_Fedora_using_yum

if you do not understand this steps you need to read manuals
or avoid a dist-upgrade with yum at all

yum upgrade

[Reindl Harald]

the yum-dist-upgrade is NOT for beginners and if
you read the wiki-page you see that there are
often enough steps you CAN NOT automate

UsrMove as example

and the people who use yum for dist-upgrades are using
it BECAUSE it is not a automated blackbox

Am 28.03.2013 11:59, schrieb [e-mail]:
> I wonder if they'll ever automate the upgrade process?.... to make it easier to go from one version to the
> next?.... seems like it would help make the process smoother for newbies....
>
> ----- Reply message -----
> From: "Reindl Harald" 
> To: 
> Subject: yum upgrade
> Date: Thu, Mar 28, 2013 5:18 am
>
> Am 28.03.2013 05:09, schrieb Richard Vickery:
> > Sorry for the double-posting:
> >
> > I've been to the fedora-upgrade (wiki) sites and got confused. Can someone give me a shortened, simplistic version
> > for stupid people (ie: myself) of how to use the yum-upgrade command?
>
> there is no simplistic way for
> https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Upgrading_Fedora_using_yum
>
> if you do not understand this steps you need to read manuals
> or avoid a dist-upgrade with yum at all

yum upgrade

[EGO-II.1]

I see.....well what about if I wanted to create some form of script or file
that would automate as MUCH of it as possible? In other words I would
download the fedup tool..and then somehow...."add" my custom command to
make it less reliant on my input, (auto-partition, auto formatting, etc.)
I'm assuming I'd have to use some programming language that could do
that.....and bear in mind....I'm just "thiniing out loud"...not refuting
you on any of the facts you've stated or points you've made...

EGO II

On Thu, Mar 28, 2013 at 7:04 AM, Reindl Harald wrote:
> the yum-dist-upgrade is NOT for beginners and if
> you read the wiki-page you see that there are
> often enough steps you CAN NOT automate
>
> UsrMove as example
>
> and the people who use yum for dist-upgrades are using
> it BECAUSE it is not a automated blackbox
>
> Am 28.03.2013 11:59, schrieb [e-mail]:
> > I wonder if they'll ever automate the upgrade process?.... to make it
>
> easier to go from one version to the
> > next?.... seems like it would help make the process smoother for
>
> newbies....
> > ----- Reply message -----
> > From: "Reindl Harald" 
> > To: 
> > Subject: yum upgrade
> > Date: Thu, Mar 28, 2013 5:18 am
> >
> > Am 28.03.2013 05:09, schrieb Richard Vickery:
> > > Sorry for the double-posting:
> > >
> > > I've been to the fedora-upgrade (wiki) sites and got confused. Can
>
> someone give me a shortened, simplistic version
> > > for stupid people (ie: myself) of how to use the yum-upgrade command?
> >
> > there is no simplistic way for
> > https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Upgrading_Fedora_using_yum
> >
> > if you do not understand this steps you need to read manuals
> > or avoid a dist-upgrade with yum at all
>
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yum upgrade

[Timothy Murphy]

Reindl Harald wrote:
> > I wonder if they'll ever automate the upgrade process?.... to make it
> > easier to go from one version to the next?.... seems like it would help
> > make the process smoother for newbies....
> the yum-dist-upgrade is NOT for beginners and if
> you read the wiki-page you see that there are
> often enough steps you CAN NOT automate

CentOS seems able to do it ...

yum upgrade

[Frank Murphy]

On Thu, 28 Mar 2013 17:41:42 +0000
Timothy Murphy  wrote:
 often enough steps you CAN NOT automate
> CentOS seems able to do it ...

CentOS cannot be dist-upgrade, as RHEL cannot.
http://www.unixmen.com/upgrading-from-centos-56-to-centos-6/

yum upgrade

[Edik Landaveri]

On Thu, Mar 28, 2013 at 05:46:03PM +0000, Frank Murphy wrote:
> On Thu, 28 Mar 2013 17:41:42 +0000
> Timothy Murphy  wrote:
>  often enough steps you CAN NOT automate
> > CentOS seems able to do it ...
>
> CentOS cannot be dist-upgrade, as RHEL cannot.

Neither Scientific Linux. It only "upgrades" from one minor version to
another: 6.2 -> 6.3.

yum upgrade

[Reindl Harald]

Am 28.03.2013 18:41, schrieb Timothy Murphy:
> Reindl Harald wrote:
> > > I wonder if they'll ever automate the upgrade process?.... to make it
> > > easier to go from one version to the next?.... seems like it would help
> > > make the process smoother for newbies....
> > the yum-dist-upgrade is NOT for beginners and if
> > you read the wiki-page you see that there are
> > often enough steps you CAN NOT automate
>
> CentOS seems able to do it ...

CENTOS HAS NO DIST-UPGRADES AT ALL
No 5.1 to 5.2 is NOT at dist-upgrade

yum upgrade

[Timothy Murphy]

Reindl Harald wrote:
> > > > I wonder if they'll ever automate the upgrade process?.... to make it
> > > > easier to go from one version to the next?.... seems like it would help
> > > > make the process smoother for newbies....
> > CentOS seems able to do it ...
>
> CENTOS HAS NO DIST-UPGRADES AT ALL
> No 5.1 to 5.2 is NOT at dist-upgrade

1. CentOS has "minor upgrades" at more or less the same frequency
that Fedora has "major upgrades", 
so to the user they are more or less the same.

2. I don't recall that I had any problems upgrading from CentOS 5 to 6.
I followed the simple advice given, and it worked exactly as stated.

3. I looked at the two document mentioned about upgrading Fedora:
https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Upgrading_Fedora_using_yum#Upgrading_Fedora_using_yum_directly,
https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/FedUp#How_Can_I_Upgrade_My_System_with_FedUp.3F

I found both of them rather confusing, and difficult to follow.

yum upgrade

[Frank Murphy]

On Fri, 29 Mar 2013 16:39:05 +0100
Timothy Murphy  wrote:
> Reindl Harald wrote:
> > > > > I wonder if they'll ever automate the upgrade process?.... to
> > > > > make it easier to go from one version to the next?.... seems
> > > > > like it would help make the process smoother for newbies....
> > > CentOS seems able to do it ...
> >
> > CENTOS HAS NO DIST-UPGRADES AT ALL
> > No 5.1 to 5.2 is NOT at dist-upgrade
> CentOS has "minor upgrades" at more or less the same frequency
>
> that Fedora has "major upgrades", 
> so to the user they are more or less the same.

CentOS like RHEL has a 10 yesr life iirc.
CenOS minor update, is the same
as normal yum update within the normal Fedora Release..
Cenos 6.0 "yum update" constantly you end up with CentOS 6.4
> I don't recall that I had any problems upgrading from CentOS 5
>
> to 6. I followed the simple advice given, and it worked exactly as
> stated.

The CentOS advice is not to do it.
http://wiki.centos.org/HowTos/MigrationGuide
> I looked at the two document mentioned about upgrading Fedora:
>
> https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Upgrading_Fedora_using_yum#Upgrading_Fedora_using_yum_directly,
> https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/FedUp#How_Can_I_Upgrade_My_System_with_FedUp.3F
>
> I found both of them rather confusing, and difficult to follow.

Maybe file an RFE against the component in Bugzilla, 
detailing what was confusing?

yum upgrade

[Reindl Harald]

Am 29.03.2013 16:39, schrieb Timothy Murphy:
> Reindl Harald wrote:
> > > CentOS seems able to do it ...
> >
> > CENTOS HAS NO DIST-UPGRADES AT ALL
> > No 5.1 to 5.2 is NOT at dist-upgrade
> CentOS has "minor upgrades" at more or less the same frequency
>
> that Fedora has "major upgrades", 
> so to the user they are more or less the same.

bullshit

as long you do not understand the difference between RHEL
and Fedora stop to discuss because you do not know anything
about what you are speaking

on RHEL/CentOS you have 100% ABI compatibility over 10
years, you can even load closed source kernel-drivers
after ANY kernel-upgrade because the kernel-API does
not change as also any other ABI/API does not change
> I don't recall that I had any problems upgrading from CentOS 5 to 6.
>
> I followed the simple advice given, and it worked exactly as stated.

only by luck and only if you use a very very limited
set of packages in your setup

RHEL 5 is based on Fedora 6
RHEL 6 is based on Fedora 12/13

so you jump from F6 to F12, nobody supports this
with RHEL7 this will be impossible because RHEL7
will be based on F18-F20 and make all this switches
with one release:

* sysvinit -> systemd
* grub -> grub2
* UsrMove
> I looked at the two document mentioned about upgrading Fedora:
>
> https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Upgrading_Fedora_using_yum#Upgrading_Fedora_u...
> https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/FedUp#How_Can_I_Upgrade_My_System_with_FedUp....
>
> I found both of them rather confusing, and difficult to follow

what is difficult in
https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Upgrading_Fedora_using_yum#Upgrading_Fedora_u...

there is a idiot-proof 1-2-3-4 instruction for each specific jump
well, you need to understand what the changes between releases are
dooing to understand the steps and why the order matters, but if
you are not willing to learn this things and can not upgrade a
Fedora installation you have two choices left

* re-install from scratch
* choose a distribution which fits your ability to flollow

yum upgrade

[Timothy Murphy]

Reindl Harald wrote:
> > I looked at the two document mentioned about upgrading Fedora:

https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Upgrading_Fedora_using_yum#Upgrading_Fedora_u...
> >

https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/FedUp#How_Can_I_Upgrade_My_System_with_FedUp....
> > I found both of them rather confusing, and difficult to follow
>
> what is difficult in

https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Upgrading_Fedora_using_yum#Upgrading_Fedora_u...
> there is a idiot-proof 1-2-3-4 instruction for each specific jump
> well, you need to understand what the changes between releases are
> dooing to understand the steps and why the order matters, but if
> you are not willing to learn this things and can not upgrade a
> Fedora installation you have two choices left
> re-install from scratch
> choose a distribution which fits your ability to flollow

A. As far as I can see, the document you recommend
starts by advising the reader to do something else,
and gives a link to this alternative method.
To me that is confusing, for a start.
It is rather like opening a Russian grammar,
and being told you would do better to study Greek.

B. I should say that to date I have always moved to a new distribution -
I have gone through all Fedora distributions since the first -
by installing the new distribution on a spare partition,
keeping the old in case the new one does not work.

I expect to do the same in the future,
though I am always open to new methods.

So I was only reading the documents mentioned out of interest.
As I said, I found them rather confusing.

It is true, probably, that one could abstract an "idiot-proof" 
1-2-3-4 instruction if one deleted 80% of the document.
Are there really people trying to update from Fedora-13 to Fedora-14?

I would extend Thompson's dictum that "a program should do one thing,
and do it well" to documentation.

yum upgrade

[Reindl Harald]

Am 29.03.2013 21:38, schrieb Timothy Murphy:
> Reindl Harald wrote:
> > what is difficult in
>
> https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Upgrading_Fedora_using_yum#Upgrading_Fedora_u...
> > there is a idiot-proof 1-2-3-4 instruction for each specific jump
> > well, you need to understand what the changes between releases are
> > dooing to understand the steps and why the order matters, but if
> > you are not willing to learn this things and can not upgrade a
> > Fedora installation you have two choices left
> > re-install from scratch
> > choose a distribution which fits your ability to flollow
>
> A. As far as I can see, the document you recommend
> starts by advising the reader to do something else,
> and gives a link to this alternative method

becasue the yum upgrade is more or less for advanced users
but, hey, i did manage it years ago a few weeks after my
firs linux-only desktop machine
> To me that is confusing, for a start.
> It is rather like opening a Russian grammar,
> and being told you would do better to study Greek.

no, it starts only with the hint "avoid it if you are
not familar with linux, yum and rpm-dependencies at all"
> B. I should say that to date I have always moved to a new distribution -
> I have gone through all Fedora distributions since the first -
> by installing the new distribution on a spare partition,
> keeping the old in case the new one does not work.

and i have always done yum-upgrades from my first day with
fedora, switched a large production infrastructure to fedora
and did yum-upgardes in priduction several hundrets of times
> I expect to do the same in the future,
> though I am always open to new methods.

as i will do the same with yum-upgardes since
the one and only try with preupgrade was the only
one which resultet in a bricked system and hous
to repair it

as i work with my machines and not only playing i have
no time to install from scratch twice a year and waste
two dys to have ALL my specific configurations in place
> So I was only reading the documents mentioned out of interest.
> As I said, I found them rather confusing.

what is confusing there?
> It is true, probably, that one could abstract an "idiot-proof" 
> 1-2-3-4 instruction if one deleted 80% of the document.
> Are there really people trying to update from Fedora-13 to Fedora-14?

for people like you there are anchors on top of the page
you need only to know the number of your installed version
and click on the right link
> I would extend Thompson's dictum that "a program should do one thing,
> and do it well" to documentation

if you want only ONE way to do things switch to Apple OSX

yum upgrade

[Richard Vickery]

On Fri, Mar 29, 2013 at 1:47 PM, Reindl Harald wrote:
> if you want only ONE way to do things switch to Apple OSX

When you put it that way, it reminds me what it was like to use Red Hat
back when I made the  switch in 1998 - grin, bare it, and patiently work
through it - because it was really cool to find out how the commands
worked! [?]

yum upgrade

[Reindl Harald]

Am 29.03.2013 22:52, schrieb Richard Vickery:
> On Fri, Mar 29, 2013 at 1:47 PM, Reindl Harald <[e-mail] > wrote:
> if you want only ONE way to do things switch to Apple OSX
>
>
> When you put it that way, it reminds me what it was like to use Red Hat back when I made the  switch in 1998 -
> grin, bare it, and patiently work through it - because it was really cool to find out how the commands worked!

well, and because you can not have both worlds in one system they
are all different and any approach to have them all wrok the same
"easy way" whatever "easy" means for one or the other is wrong

we do not need all systems behave the same way
we need the right systems for whatever they should do

and linux should stay for professional or at least ambitious
users because OSX and Windows are lcearly not useable for them

yum upgrade

[Richard Vickery]

On Mar 29, 2013 2:58 PM, "Reindl Harald"  wrote:
> Am 29.03.2013 22:52, schrieb Richard Vickery:
> > On Fri, Mar 29, 2013 at 1:47 PM, Reindl Harald <[e-mail]<mailto:

[e-mail]>> wrote:
> > because OSX and Windows are lcearly not useable for them

It's only that Linux is far superior because the kernel was developed by a
computer scientist, rather than by business-persons (Jobs) or political
scientists / lawyers (Gates); Linux also hardly - if ever - crashes, and
can be up far longer than either two.

yum upgrade

[Timothy Murphy]

Reindl Harald wrote:
> > I would extend Thompson's dictum that "a program should do one thing,
> > and do it well" to documentation
>
> if you want only ONE way to do things switch to Apple OSX

I think you misunderstand or misinterpret what Thompson said.
There is a big difference between having many programs
that do the same thing, and having one program
that does many things.

Re documentation, which I was referring to,
I like a tutorial-type document to deal with one subject,
in the shortest possible way.
Too much information can be as confusing as too little.