12:18 p.m.
F35 change from F32; may have occurred earlier.
VI was sooo easy to use.
Now I have to learn nano?
Old timer sheesh.
12:26 p.m.
On Tue, Nov 16, 2021 at 11:19 AM Robert Moskowitz <rgm(a)htt-consult.com> wrote:
F35 change from F32; may have occurred earlier.
VI was sooo easy to use.
Now I have to learn nano?
Old timer sheesh.
Uninstall the nano-default-editor package. Install the
vim-default-editor package. Log out and log back in. Bask in the
glory of vim. :-)
--
Jerry James
http://www.jamezone.org/
12:30 p.m.
man crontab says VISUAL or EDITOR env vars may affect this. sure hope
the default isn't nano now...
1:10 p.m.
On 11/16/21 13:56, Patrick O'Callaghan wrote:
On Tue, 2021-11-16 at 12:30 -0600, Ron Flory wrote:
> man crontab says VISUAL or EDITOR env vars may affect this. sure
> hope
> the default isn't nano now...
IIRC the default has been nano since at least F34 and possibly earlier.
I don't like it either.
It is vi in F32. there is no choice of editor in F32 as in F35:
default-editor.noarch 5.8-4.fc35 @fedora
nano-default-editor.noarch 5.8-4.fc35 @fedora
vim-default-editor.noarch 2:8.2.3582-1.fc35 updates
Question as to what just default-editor is over vim-default-editor?
Perhaps it is the original deal of vi?
1:11 p.m.
Am 16.11.2021 um 19:56 schrieb Patrick O'Callaghan
<pocallaghan(a)gmail.com>:
On Tue, 2021-11-16 at 12:30 -0600, Ron Flory wrote:
> man crontab says VISUAL or EDITOR env vars may affect this. sure
> hope
> the default isn't nano now...
IIRC the default has been nano since at least F34 and possibly earlier.
I don't like it either.
+1 !
1:39 p.m.
Am 16.11.2021 um 20:27 schrieb Joe Zeff <joe(a)zeff.us>:
On 11/16/21 11:18 AM, Robert Moskowitz wrote:
> Now I have to learn nano?
> Old timer sheesh.
Nano is actually easy to use. The most important commands are at the bottom of the
screen, including the one to bring up the complete list. No need to memorize anything.
Maybe, but you lose a lot of very powerful functionality. And instead you are supposed to
decipher (and memorize) cryptic character combinations that desperately try to imitate a
graphical interface.
2:10 p.m.
On 11/16/21 12:39 PM, Peter Boy wrote:
Maybe, but you lose a lot of very powerful functionality. And instead
you are supposed to decipher (and memorize) cryptic character combinations that
desperately try to imitate a graphical interface.
No. All commands in nano are single strokes, using the control key, so
that ^K is cut text, ^U is paste text and ^G gets you help by listing
the entire set of commands.No need to memorize anything because the most
common commands are listed on the last two lines of the screen. That's
what I like about nano: even if you haven't used it in over a year, you
don't have to worry about remembering which command is which. Instead
of just rejecting it, why don't you open it up on an empty file and play
with it a little? If nothing else, it's more than adequate for whatever
text editing you'd need in an emergency.
3:08 p.m.
Am 16.11.2021 um 21:10 schrieb Joe Zeff <joe(a)zeff.us>:
On 11/16/21 12:39 PM, Peter Boy wrote:
> Maybe, but you lose a lot of very powerful functionality. And instead you are
supposed to decipher (and memorize) cryptic character combinations that desperately try to
imitate a graphical interface.
No. All commands in nano are single strokes, using the control key, so that ^K is cut
text, ^U is paste text and ^G gets you help by listing the entire set of commands.No need
to memorize anything
You might see it yourself: K for cut, very intuitive , ^ for „Press <ctrl> key, even
more intuitive.
As with vim, you have to have some prior knowledge to use nano (and you don’t have
something like the famous "vi cup“ at hand :-) ). And nano "hijacks" 4
lines from the already few lines you have on a text terminal on the newly installed server
(or on your server in emergency mode, even more stressful).
I can't understand the "missionary zeal" that some people bring into the
field for Nano. It is more a question of knowledge and, above all, of requirements for the
editor. Nano as default for Workstation may have some merit, but as default for server it
makes more sense to use vim.
3:27 p.m.
On 11/16/21 2:08 PM, Peter Boy wrote:
You might see it yourself: K for cut, very intuitive , ^ for „Press
<ctrl> key, even more intuitive.
Back it the Old Days when nano was first developed, the standard way to
signify use of the control key was ^, which is still used in the various
terminal programs and the CLI. Whoever wrote nano simply used the
current convention rather than making something up.
I can't understand the "missionary zeal" that some
people bring into the field for Nano. It is more a question of knowledge and, above all,
of requirements for the editor. Nano as default for Workstation may have some merit, but
as default for server it makes more sense to use vim.
I'm not saying that everybody should switch to nano, just that I
consider it far easier for a beginner to learn for the reasons I've
already given. What I don't understand is why so many people think that
vi/vim is so wonderful unless it's justifying the amount of work it took
them to learn it.
3:40 p.m.
On 11/16/21 16:27, Joe Zeff wrote:
On 11/16/21 2:08 PM, Peter Boy wrote:
> You might see it yourself: K for cut, very intuitive , ^ for „Press
> <ctrl> key, even more intuitive.
>
Back it the Old Days when nano was first developed, the standard way
to signify use of the control key was ^, which is still used in the
various terminal programs and the CLI. Whoever wrote nano simply used
the current convention rather than making something up.
> I can't understand the "missionary zeal" that some people bring into
> the field for Nano. It is more a question of knowledge and, above
> all, of requirements for the editor. Nano as default for Workstation
> may have some merit, but as default for server it makes more sense to
> use vim.
I'm not saying that everybody should switch to nano, just that I
consider it far easier for a beginner to learn for the reasons I've
already given. What I don't understand is why so many people think
that vi/vim is so wonderful unless it's justifying the amount of work
it took them to learn it.
If I need more that vi, then I use geany. We ARE using a gui interface
on most systems and often gui remote into servers.
Of course I have colleagues that say that emacs is all anyone will ever
need. Learn it already and use it. :)
And I still have my O'Rielly book on vi! And Eric Behr "The VI
Editor"circa 1994, rev 1995 in pdf.
4:22 p.m.
On 11/16/21 2:40 PM, Robert Moskowitz wrote:
If I need more that vi, then I use geany. We ARE using a gui
interface
on most systems and often gui remote into servers.
Yes, of course you should use your GUI editor of choice if it's
available. That's why I kept talking about emergency edits when all you
have is a CLI.
Of course I have colleagues that say that emacs is all anyone will
ever
need. Learn it already and use it. :)
Long before I learned Linux, I studied programming on a school using
CP/M. Their editor was MINCE, an emacs derivative. There are great
things you can do with emacs, but the learning curve is long and steep.
3:46 p.m.
Am 16.11.2021 um 22:27 schrieb Joe Zeff <joe(a)zeff.us>:
On 11/16/21 2:08 PM, Peter Boy wrote:
> You might see it yourself: K for cut, very intuitive , ^ for „Press <ctrl> key,
even more intuitive.
Back it the Old Days when nano was first developed, the standard way to signify use of
the control key was ^, which is still used in the various terminal programs and the CLI.
Whoever wrote nano simply used the current convention rather than making something up.
Yes indeed, you know that (and I, too). But someone, who is new to Linux? Or to computers
in general?
> I can't understand the "missionary zeal" that some
people bring into the field for Nano. It is more a question of knowledge and, above all,
of requirements for the editor. Nano as default for Workstation may have some merit, but
as default for server it makes more sense to use vim.
I'm not saying that everybody should switch to nano,
+1
But some of the discussion involves to make nano default for all Fedora editions and to
refuse to allow differences.
just that I consider it far easier for a beginner to learn for the
reasons I've already given. What I don't understand is why so many people think
that vi/vim is so wonderful unless it's justifying the amount of work it took them to
learn it.
The learning curve with vim is probably steeper. But if you are maintaining one or more
servers, vim has some powerful features that make life easier. As an example vimdiff to
analyse changes in config files after an update. Or vim’s powerful reg.ex feature or
sorting. It might make sense to choose different defaults for different editions.
4:27 p.m.
On 11/16/21 2:46 PM, Peter Boy wrote:
Yes indeed, you know that (and I, too). But someone, who is new to
Linux? Or to computers in general?
If I were helping a newcomer to Linux, and pointed them toward nano, I'd
include explaining what ^ means in that context. How much explaining do
you need to give a newcomer to get them up and walking (running comes
later) with vi/vim?
>> I can't understand the "missionary zeal" that
some people bring into the field for Nano. It is more a question of knowledge and, above
all, of requirements for the editor. Nano as default for Workstation may have some merit,
but as default for server it makes more sense to use vim.
> I'm not saying that everybody should switch to nano,
+1
But some of the discussion involves to make nano default for all Fedora editions and to
refuse to allow differences.
I've never found it hard to make nano my default editor; it just takes
setting the proper environment strings in ~./bashrc.
4:33 p.m.
On 11/16/21 2:27 PM, Joe Zeff wrote:
On 11/16/21 2:46 PM, Peter Boy wrote:
> Yes indeed, you know that (and I, too). But someone, who is new to Linux? Or to
computers in general?
>
If I were helping a newcomer to Linux, and pointed them toward nano, I'd include
explaining what ^ means in that context. How much explaining do you need to give a
newcomer to get them up and walking (running comes later) with vi/vim?
>>> I can't understand the "missionary zeal" that some people bring
into the field for Nano. It is more a question of knowledge and, above all, of
requirements for the editor. Nano as default for Workstation may have some merit, but as
default for server it makes more sense to use vim.
>> I'm not saying that everybody should switch to nano,
> +1
>
> But some of the discussion involves to make nano default for all Fedora editions and
to refuse to allow differences.
>
I've never found it hard to make nano my default editor; it just takes setting the
proper environment strings in ~./bashrc.
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I've been using nano for a long time. When I first started using Linux I found vim to
be awful. Still do. I admit mostly because I am too lazy to learn it, especially as nano
provides just what I need for the command line.
I don't believe vim is a good choice for new Linux users, so I support making nano the
default EDITOR.
Emmett
4:30 p.m.
On Tue, 16 Nov 2021 14:27:49 -0700
Joe Zeff wrote:
What I don't understand is why so many people think that
vi/vim is so wonderful unless it's justifying the amount of work it took
them to learn it.
Bingo! :-). Why would anyone think an editor with separate "modes"
for moving the cursor and inserting text was a good idea (with sub-insertion
modes depending on how you entered the mode).
The editor I use all the time is emacs, but there is no way I could
use it without all my customizations. A default emacs is as foreign to me
as vi or nano, but at least nano has a cheat sheet on the screen already.
1:35 p.m.
On 11/16/21 10:18, Robert Moskowitz wrote:
F35 change from F32; may have occurred earlier.
Change in Fedora 33: https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Changes/UseNanoByDefault
VI was sooo easy to use. Now I have to learn nano?
No, now new users don't have to learn to use vim. You can set whatever
editor you like for yourself:
echo "EDITOR=vi" >> ~/.bash_profile
2:01 p.m.
On 11/16/21 10:18, Robert Moskowitz wrote:
F35 change from F32; may have occurred earlier.
VI was sooo easy to use.
Now I have to learn nano?
I was using a debian or Ubuntu system and I ran "visudo". It took me a
few moments to figure out why I couldn't get out of it. I laughed at
the irony of using nano for *vi*sudo. But this is a good reminder to
run "dnf install vim-default-editor --allowerasing" on my newly
installed Fedora systems to avoid the same surprise there.
3:02 p.m.
On 11/16/21 15:01, Samuel Sieb wrote:
On 11/16/21 10:18, Robert Moskowitz wrote:
> F35 change from F32; may have occurred earlier.
>
> VI was sooo easy to use.
>
> Now I have to learn nano?
I was using a debian or Ubuntu system and I ran "visudo". It took me
a few moments to figure out why I couldn't get out of it. I laughed
at the irony of using nano for *vi*sudo. But this is a good reminder
to run "dnf install vim-default-editor --allowerasing" on my newly
installed Fedora systems to avoid the same surprise there.
What is the difference between rpms:
vim-default-editor
and
default-editor
3:24 p.m.
Am 16.11.2021 um 22:02 schrieb Robert Moskowitz
<rgm(a)htt-consult.com>:
On 11/16/21 15:01, Samuel Sieb wrote:
> On 11/16/21 10:18, Robert Moskowitz wrote:
>> F35 change from F32; may have occurred earlier.
>>
>> VI was sooo easy to use.
>>
>> Now I have to learn nano?
>
> I was using a debian or Ubuntu system and I ran "visudo". It took me a few
moments to figure out why I couldn't get out of it. I laughed at the irony of using
nano for *vi*sudo. But this is a good reminder to run "dnf install
vim-default-editor --allowerasing" on my newly installed Fedora systems to avoid the
same surprise there.
What is the difference between rpms:
vim-default-editor
and
default-editor
Zdenek Dohnal explained on server list:
The current solution depends on weak dependency system in DNF -
default-editor requires system-default-editor which both - vim-default-editor and
nano-default-editor - provides (*-default-editors conflicts with system-default-editor as
well to prevent both being installed at the same time).
Then if weak-deps are enabled - DNF sees 'Recommends:' in default-editor and
brings in nano-default-editor if there isn't any other *-default-editor already
installed. If there is, the transaction is not done, but it doesn't fail the whole
transaction -> upgrade-path is okay.
889
days inactive
889
days old
20 comments
10 participants
participants (10)
-
Emmett Culley -
Gordon Messmer -
Jerry James -
Joe Zeff -
Patrick O'Callaghan -
Peter Boy -
Robert Moskowitz -
Ron Flory -
Samuel Sieb -
Tom Horsley