All:
Here is the first edition of the List Rules.
The first thing is that I, like you, are a regular member of the list but have read through many messages about 'netequitte' within this list.
Just a couple of hints:
1. Set your mailer to send only plain text messages to the list. HTML mail does not work well, is blocked by some of our list members, and sadly wastes bandwidth. Also, some members, like myself, disabled display of HTML mail because they can be used for spam detectors and can send malware code. 2. Place your replies at the bottom of messages. This is an old method used for many years. Preface any text to be replied to with a character, most folks use a greater than sign '>' but any special printable character will suffice. 3. Search the list archives before posting a question. Many topics have been discussed extensively in prior messages. Also, please read through the Release Notes for Fedora Core. There are major changes with this release, including making Secure Linux (SELinux) a default. 4. Placing two dashes and a space between message content and your signature, will in most cases, result in automatic cutoff of your signature when your messages are replied to. Please note: Some mailers will not display any content to include this line and any lines below it. 5. To unsubscibe from the list you can visit the Fedora Mail List web page at http://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/fedora-list 6. Please contact me directly with suggestions and comments.
On Fri, 25 Feb 2005 20:47:30 -0700, James McKenzie jjmckenzie51@earthlink.net wrote:
All:
Here is the first edition of the List Rules.
The first thing is that I, like you, are a regular member of the list but have read through many messages about 'netequitte' within this list.
Just a couple of hints:
- Set your mailer to send only plain text messages to the list. HTML
mail does not work well, is blocked by some of our list members, and sadly wastes bandwidth. Also, some members, like myself, disabled display of HTML mail because they can be used for spam detectors and can send malware code. 2. Place your replies at the bottom of messages. This is an old method used for many years. Preface any text to be replied to with a character, most folks use a greater than sign '>' but any special printable character will suffice. 3. Search the list archives before posting a question. Many topics have been discussed extensively in prior messages. Also, please read through the Release Notes for Fedora Core. There are major changes with this release, including making Secure Linux (SELinux) a default. 4. Placing two dashes and a space between message content and your signature, will in most cases, result in automatic cutoff of your signature when your messages are replied to. Please note: Some mailers will not display any content to include this line and any lines below it. 5. To unsubscibe from the list you can visit the Fedora Mail List web page at http://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/fedora-list 6. Please contact me directly with suggestions and comments.
Just a couple of comments..
First, i found it great that you didn't just "state" the rules, but you also gave an explanation to them. This way they seem more logical instead of just a buch of stupid detail for picki people.
Second, I i'd just suggest that, when you mention the use of the list archives, to include one link to a good useful archive, like MARC one at http://marc.theaimsgroup.com/?l=fedora-list&r=1&w=2
Also, it may be interesting to post a link to some page with more details like archive search hints and a list of FAQs/Wikis.
Cheers,
Gustavo Seabra wrote:
Just a couple of comments..
First, i found it great that you didn't just "state" the rules, but you also gave an explanation to them. This way they seem more logical instead of just a buch of stupid detail for picki people.
Second, I i'd just suggest that, when you mention the use of the list archives, to include one link to a good useful archive, like MARC one at http://marc.theaimsgroup.com/?l=fedora-list&r=1&w=2
There are several locations for the list archives. Please use which ever one that you prefer.
Also, it may be interesting to post a link to some page with more details like archive search hints and a list of FAQs/Wikis.
There are several Wiki's. Some are dedicated to specific hardware or software packages. I've used Google to find them.
On Fri, 25 Feb 2005 21:36:32 -0700, James McKenzie jjmckenzie51@earthlink.net wrote:
Gustavo Seabra wrote:
Just a couple of comments..
First, i found it great that you didn't just "state" the rules, but you also gave an explanation to them. This way they seem more logical instead of just a buch of stupid detail for picki people.
Second, I i'd just suggest that, when you mention the use of the list archives, to include one link to a good useful archive, like MARC one at http://marc.theaimsgroup.com/?l=fedora-list&r=1&w=2
There are several locations for the list archives. Please use which ever one that you prefer.
Also, it may be interesting to post a link to some page with more details like archive search hints and a list of FAQs/Wikis.
There are several Wiki's. Some are dedicated to specific hardware or software packages. I've used Google to find them.
James, it seems like you misunderstood me. I didn't mean to "vote" on one particular archive here. The idea I was trying to pass was just to have, in the list rules e-mail, some links to support the suggestions given.
Countless times we've seen people answer to questions with a "look at the archives", unknowingly that lots of newbies even know about them. in te beggining, I myself didn't. So, whenever we suggest to someone to look at the archives, I don't think that would be too much trouble to include a link to them there.
The particular one I pointed is just a matter of personal preference, I found it to work great *for me*. But if one is to be in the "offical list rules", maybe the redhat one should be used. My point is: Together with the rules, supply the reader with a link to /some/ chosen archive or, even better, to a list of archives / FAQs / Wikis. He can go from there.
The truth is that lots of information is available, but it is actually spread over lots of different webpages. Wouldn't it be nice to have one web-page indexing all the others? And one simple (monthly?) reminder of this page could potentially reduce a lot the list traffic.
On 02/25/2005 10:33:02 PM, Gustavo Seabra wrote:
So, whenever we suggest to someone to look at the archives, I don't think that would be too much trouble to include a link to them there.
I think a search box looking at the official archive would be better - since it won't disapear.
https://www.redhat.com/archives/fedora-list/
Good to see some suggested list etiquette - good work James.
- Place your replies at the bottom of messages. This is an old
method
used for many years. ...
Could this be changed to "place your replies after the text you are replying to. This gives the message a natural, conversational structure and is a long established convention on email lists.
... Preface any text to be replied to with a character, most folks use a greater than sign '>' but any special printable character will suffice.
I don't understand this bit about the '>' sign. If we use that for something it shows up as 'replied to' text. It could also benefit from being a seperate point perhaps.
Duncan
On Saturday 26 February 2005 09:00, Duncan Lithgow wrote:
Good to see some suggested list etiquette - good work James.
I have to agree :-) <snip>
... Preface any text to be replied to with a character, most folks use a greater than sign '>' but any special printable character will suffice.
I don't understand this bit about the '>' sign. If we use that for something it shows up as 'replied to' text. It could also benefit from being a seperate point perhaps.
Nope, that was exactly the point - a message you reply to should have the original text (or better an edited version of it, to leave only the relevant parts) clearly marked by a character at the beginning of each line. The majority of mail clients do this automatically (here it is being done by kmail). The reasoning behind this is to make it clear what *you* are saying and what the previous poster wrote. It also makes it far easier to find replies to any questions you post...
On Saturday 26 February 2005 12:07, Stuart Sears wrote:
... Preface any text to be replied to with a character, most folks use a greater than sign '>' but any special printable character will suffice.
I don't understand this bit about the '>' sign. If we use that for something it shows up as 'replied to' text. It could also benefit from being a seperate point perhaps.
Nope, that was exactly the point - a message you reply to
In that case it should read "Preface any text you are replying to with a ..."
I think that has the correct meaning now.
Duncan
Duncan Lithgow wrote:
On Saturday 26 February 2005 12:07, Stuart Sears wrote: In that case it should read "Preface any text you are replying to with a ..."
I think that has the correct meaning now.
Thanks for the verbage correction. - James McKenzie With assistance, Now running 2.6.11rc3, Software Suspend 2 and ibm-acpi .1 Need a home for my .rpm
On Fri, 25 Feb 2005 20:47:30 -0700, James McKenzie jjmckenzie51@earthlink.net wrote:
All:
Here is the first edition of the List Rules.
please submit to the fedora docs list after collecting feedback from this list
From: "Rahul Sundaram" rahulsundaram@gmail.com
On Fri, 25 Feb 2005 20:47:30 -0700, James McKenzie jjmckenzie51@earthlink.net wrote:
All:
Here is the first edition of the List Rules.
please submit to the fedora docs list after collecting feedback from this
list
Rule number one is that there shall be no discussion of list rules, ever, regardless of whatever level of infraction may appear in any message to the list. The rules shall be discussed only between dweebs anal enough to worry about the whole thing in the first place.
Haven't you little boys anything better to do with your time than play list cop?
Sheesh
{+_+}
- Place your replies at the bottom of messages.
This is actually a misinterpretation of a much better idea: When replying to a message, quote the relevant passage you are replying to as concisely as possible, preceeding each line with a non alphanumeric, preferably '>', then add your reply in plain text.
Repeat as necessary.
- Search the list archives before posting a question.
This leads me to another important suggestion. To aid in the searching, please write subject lines that concisely tag the message. For instance, if you are having a problem getting past the partitioning phase of an install of FC3, don't set the subject to "Install Fails", set it to "Can't get past partitioning on FC3".
Haven't you little boys anything better to do with your time than play list cop?
Two other suggestions come to mind here. First is that you probably shouldn't call it "List Rules". It might be better to call it "Suggestions to ensure the widest readership of your question or problem." This gets the goal across nicely.
The second is that ad hominem attacks probably won't result in positive action. In fact, in the old days, a million years ago in Internet time, we called those sorts of posts "Trolls".
Hi
Two other suggestions come to mind here. First is that you probably shouldn't call it "List Rules". It might be better to call it "Suggestions to ensure the widest readership of your question or problem." This gets the goal across nicely.
Isnt list guidelines a more concise expression of that?
"Suggestions to ensure the widest readership of your question or problem." This gets the goal across nicely.
Isnt list guidelines a more concise expression of that?
No. The why of it isn't there.
Sadly, people misunderstand why some folks harp on netiquette. Sure, netiquette is about irritation prevention, but if you flip that coin, you see that it helps to remove barriers to communication.
The "rules" of the net are, in essence, a list of things that cause cognitive dissonance to the reader. In a place like alt.discordia, maybe that's good. But if you want help with your problem, or just want to be heard, it's essential to follow the standard.
I will admit that "Suggestions to ensure the widest readership of your question or problem." is an eyeful, and if you can suggest a more concise way to put it that conveys the entire meaning explicitly, I'd be happy to put my shoulder behind it.
Hi
I will admit that "Suggestions to ensure the widest readership of your question or problem." is an eyeful, and if you can suggest a more concise way to put it that conveys the entire meaning explicitly, I'd be happy to put my shoulder behind it.
trying to summarise the content to that extend within the title makes it too long
trying to summarise the content to that extend within the title makes it too long
Yes, but calling it "List Guidelines" makes ignoring it too tempting. Remember that people are taught from a very early age that people will impose strictures on them that appear to be arbitrary and burdensome. Some of the time this is because the rules are, in fact, arbitrary and burdensome. They are designed to keep you out. And then sometimes the rules are for a good reason, and enforce the widest possible use of the thing they surround. Witness the GPL.
My suggested title is an attempt to address the knee-jerk reaction from those who have had too many stupid rules imposed on them. Instead being a stricture, they become an affordance, to use the design term.
And what's a few extra words between colleagues, especially when it might help make the burden lighter for some?
How about "Get Your Question or Problem Read on fedora-list"?
On Sat, 2005-02-26 at 09:47 -0500, Hacksaw wrote:
Yes, but calling it "List Guidelines" makes ignoring it too tempting. Remember that people are taught from a very early age that people will impose strictures on them that appear to be arbitrary and burdensome. Some of the time this is because the rules are, in fact, arbitrary and burdensome. They are designed to keep you out. And then sometimes the rules are for a good reason, and enforce the widest possible use of the thing they surround. Witness the GPL.
My suggested title is an attempt to address the knee-jerk reaction from those who have had too many stupid rules imposed on them. Instead being a stricture, they become an affordance, to use the design term.
And what's a few extra words between colleagues, especially when it might help make the burden lighter for some?
How about "Get Your Question or Problem Read on fedora-list"?
This is good. I suggest,
"Effectively Eliciting a Useful Response To Your Question(s)"
Sounds like something you'd hear from someone in HR ;) but, I think it conveys the idea behind the guidelines as succinctly as possible. I wanted to remove 'Problem' from the mix because it attaches a negative connotation to what you're posting about. Some of the people posting to this list apologize for asking a question, or state how they know they are dumb for not knowing some knowledge about some topic.
I feel the above description informs the person posting the question that they are more likely to receive information beneficial to them if they follow these steps. The reasons are similar to why a well written bug report has a better chance of being fixed then a poorly written one. Guidelines that enhance clarity, if followed, reduce the amount of effort needed to assess needs. Anything to reduce the amount of effort necessary to address a question is beneficial to everyone, as we are all volunteers on this list.
Of course, we have many on the list in which English is a second language, so your wording might be easier to process.
Ian
Ian P. Thomas wrote:
On Sat, 2005-02-26 at 09:47 -0500, Hacksaw wrote:
Yes, but calling it "List Guidelines" makes ignoring it too tempting. Remember that people are taught from a very early age that people will impose strictures on them that appear to be arbitrary and burdensome. Some of the time this is because the rules are, in fact, arbitrary and burdensome. They are designed to keep you out. And then sometimes the rules are for a good reason, and enforce the widest possible use of the thing they surround. Witness the GPL.
My suggested title is an attempt to address the knee-jerk reaction from those who have had too many stupid rules imposed on them. Instead being a stricture, they become an affordance, to use the design term.
And what's a few extra words between colleagues, especially when it might help make the burden lighter for some?
How about "Get Your Question or Problem Read on fedora-list"?
This is good. I suggest,
"Effectively Eliciting a Useful Response To Your Question(s)"
How about "List Guidelines or the How to Get Help for Your Fedora Problem"? -- James McKenzie With assistance, Now running 2.6.11rc4, Software Suspend 2 and ibm-acpi .1 Need a home for my .rpm
On Sat, 2005-02-26 at 12:27 -0700, James McKenzie wrote:
Ian P. Thomas wrote:
On Sat, 2005-02-26 at 09:47 -0500, Hacksaw wrote:
How about "Get Your Question or Problem Read on fedora-list"?
This is good. I suggest,
"Effectively Eliciting a Useful Response To Your Question(s)"
How about "List Guidelines or the How to Get Help for Your Fedora Problem"?
That sounds good. Even more succinct is "How to Get Help on fedora- list". Perhaps someone at Red Hat could put a link on this page,
http://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/fedora-list
and add it to the 'Using fedora-list' section.
Ian
Ian P. Thomas wrote:
On Sat, 2005-02-26 at 12:27 -0700, James McKenzie wrote:
Ian P. Thomas wrote:
On Sat, 2005-02-26 at 09:47 -0500, Hacksaw wrote:
How about "Get Your Question or Problem Read on fedora-list"?
This is good. I suggest,
"Effectively Eliciting a Useful Response To Your Question(s)"
How about "List Guidelines or the How to Get Help for Your Fedora Problem"?
That sounds good. Even more succinct is "How to Get Help on fedora- list". Perhaps someone at Red Hat could put a link on this page,
http://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/fedora-list
and add it to the 'Using fedora-list' section.
That's the goal of this effort folks. Not for me to police the list, but for those who are new to get guidance on how this list functions as a community.
On Sat, 26 Feb 2005 09:13:08 -0500, Hacksaw hacksaw@hacksaw.org wrote:
"Suggestions to ensure the widest readership of your question or problem." This gets the goal across nicely.
Isnt list guidelines a more concise expression of that?
No. The why of it isn't there.
Sadly, people misunderstand why some folks harp on netiquette. Sure, netiquette is about irritation prevention, but if you flip that coin, you see that it helps to remove barriers to communication.
The "rules" of the net are, in essence, a list of things that cause cognitive dissonance to the reader. In a place like alt.discordia, maybe that's good. But if you want help with your problem, or just want to be heard, it's essential to follow the standard.
I will admit that "Suggestions to ensure the widest readership of your question or problem." is an eyeful, and if you can suggest a more concise way to put it that conveys the entire meaning explicitly, I'd be happy to put my shoulder behind it.
How about "If you really want people to read your posts"
From: "Leonard Isham" leonard.isham@gmail.com
On Sat, 26 Feb 2005 09:13:08 -0500, Hacksaw hacksaw@hacksaw.org wrote:
"Suggestions to ensure the widest readership of your question or problem." This gets the goal
across
nicely.
Isnt list guidelines a more concise expression of that?
No. The why of it isn't there.
Sadly, people misunderstand why some folks harp on netiquette. Sure, netiquette is about irritation prevention, but if you flip that coin,
you see
that it helps to remove barriers to communication.
The "rules" of the net are, in essence, a list of things that cause
cognitive
dissonance to the reader. In a place like alt.discordia, maybe that's
good.
But if you want help with your problem, or just want to be heard, it's essential to follow the standard.
I will admit that "Suggestions to ensure the widest readership of your question or problem." is an eyeful, and if you can suggest a more
concise way
to put it that conveys the entire meaning explicitly, I'd be happy to
put my
shoulder behind it.
How about "If you really want people to read your posts"
-- Leonard Isham, CISSP Ostendo non ostento.
The little boys did not get the hint. I finally exit Fedora lists entirely. I am bloody god damn sick of the crap. {+_+} Good by and good riddance.
jdow wrote:
... that it helps to remove barriers to communication.
I finally exit Fedora lists entirely.
. {+_+} Good by and good riddance.
Hopefully you will not leave the lists if any of the subject matters are of interest to you or you can help someone else out with a problem.
Claiming that posting a certain way is more valuable than the other way is a venture into the "land of no results". The list was setup for Fedora users to learn from others with their previous obstacles that they personally had to overcome or read up on how a program should be setup according to design.
On the other hand, the list was not setup to have a dedicated format for only posting in a certain format. I know the subject never ceases or results in anything positive. Reading the archives would lead one to that conclusion also.
Repeating futile attempts to police the list should be better spent on dedication to helping users get the best experience from FC that is possible.
I hate to see someone repelled by a particular neverending thread. I can understand why the subject is repelling listers from contributing, since it floods their mailboxes and distracts from concentrating on asking for help or trying to give help related to Fedora usage or overcoming problems with current public releases.
Now back to our program.
Jim
Jim Cornette wrote:
I hate to see someone repelled by a particular neverending thread. I can understand why the subject is repelling listers from contributing, since it floods their mailboxes and distracts from concentrating on asking for help or trying to give help related to Fedora usage or overcoming problems with current public releases.
Now back to our program.
Jim:
You are so right, but a ton of bandwidth has been wasted trying to enforce 'rules' that are not stated. All I want is to get a good set of community driven guidelines that state how we should interrelate in the list. I was 'pounded' by folks that insisted that I 'bottom post' when I belong to three professional lists that insist on the opposite. When I was confronted with this, I asked where this was "in writing". The replies I got were, this is custom but is not a written rule. So, I decided, as an ex-FidoNet list moderator, to take on the task of putting our community guidelines in writing and present them to our Red Hat benefactors so that folks who are new to the list integrate quickly. Also, I have lived in several foreign countries where failure to follow the customs of that country could result at a minimum in a very public tongue lashing to spending time in prison (it is against the law to tip a taxi driver in Japan.)
In any case, the ultimate goal is to not have to publish the guidelines but to have Red Hat do this. And guidelines are changeable based upon the consensus of the group.
James McKenzie wrote:
Jim Cornette wrote:
I hate to see someone repelled by a particular neverending thread. I can understand why the subject is repelling listers from contributing, since it floods their mailboxes and distracts from concentrating on asking for help or trying to give help related to Fedora usage or overcoming problems with current public releases.
Now back to our program.
Jim:
You are so right, but a ton of bandwidth has been wasted trying to enforce 'rules' that are not stated. All I want is to get a good set of community driven guidelines that state how we should interrelate in the list.
After being exposed to inline replies and also with replies to the bottom of the messages on this list, I do think that it is easier to follow threads and know what was being discussed. My objection is mainly due to the discussion continuing for as far back as I can remember. There is never going to be conformance to any type of rigid policy. Rehashing the subject over and over will just lead to people feeling that enough is enough. Jdow, who was on the fedora lists for as far back as I can remember is a good example. I am bothered by the rehashing of the subject repeatadly also and usually only delete the threads and continue on scanning for topics where I might be able to trigger one in the right direction, learn from their insight or just be entertained by a post that is enlightening that breaks up the normal dry postings on the list. Most are informative, but some are rather dry or repetative in nature.
I was 'pounded' by folks that insisted that I 'bottom post' when I
belong to three professional lists that insist on the opposite. When I was confronted with this, I asked where this was "in writing". The replies I got were, this is custom but is not a written rule. So, I decided, as an ex-FidoNet list moderator, to take on the task of putting our community guidelines in writing and present them to our Red Hat benefactors so that folks who are new to the list integrate quickly.
A briefing message when one signs up to the list that is informative of what the list objective is, which is pretty well covered in the list name might be alright. I don't see this concept happening, since the list manager probably has to worry more about technical issues, rather than what format of posting is considered better than another type.
The best solution would probably be to add a link to a website that has these proposed rules rearding html postings and bottom posting described within it. Adding a link that already has such guidlines might be acceptable also. The only thing is that I even don't read netiquite proposals myself. I just post as I prefer to and the way that it seems will best get the message across to the intended recepients.
Also, I have lived in several foreign countries where failure to follow the customs of that country could result at a minimum in a very public tongue lashing to spending time in prison (it is against the law to tip a taxi driver in Japan.)
There are bound to be al sorts of hard to believe laws worldwide. We stil have very outdated laws on our books that are far behind being applicable today. Anyway, hopefully top-posting does not become outlawed with the same penalty that inside trading entails. We can hope we did not elect representatives with this type of mindset within our borders.
In any case, the ultimate goal is to not have to publish the guidelines but to have Red Hat do this. And guidelines are changeable based upon the consensus of the group.
I really believe that redhat needs to keep involved in technical issues, like spam, viruses or posts that are spoofs originating from other than the person that actually uses the particular mailing address.
Good luck with your venture. I think that it is excellent that redhat provides the avenue where we can converse in a public mailing list. I don't think that I would request Red Hat to be bothered with list posting preferences though.
I appreciate having the chance to learn from other Fedora users and help where I can. I am still sort of a person who does not like to be put into a mold for how I would post a message or do any other thing in my everyday life. I just think we all need a break from never dying threads. I have seen postings that I could not help with, since I don't know much about the issues. They might be answered if less discussion time was dedicated to how one should post. I do not see any value in some sort of "this is what I want, so you better post that way" sort of guidlines. I don't consider these ideals as rules, they are simply guidlines, the world will not end because someone top posted or sent through an html formatted message. Now if an rtf formatted message comes through, this is one that I would consider improper and unreadable from my operating system tools or programs.
Jim
First is that you probably shouldn't call it "List Rules". It might be better to call it "Suggestions to ensure the widest readership of your question or problem." This gets the goal across nicely.
Amen - when I saw the subject "List Rules," it actually got my back up a bit. This is a community. It is certainly nice for people to be aware of and try to follow the community standards of behavior. However, calling them "rules" implies that there is a firm structure in place. Usually there are punitive consequences for breaking "rules." Anyone who claims to be the arbiter of, or the enforcer of "the rules" seems to me to be claiming authority that (s)he simply doesn't have.
I would certainly strive to follow the community standards, and I have no problems gently (preferably off list) pointing a community newcomer to a list of community preferences. But someone who pops off about violating "the rules" is likely to get an earful from me.
Thomas
Good afternoon!
On Sat, 2005-02-26 at 12:33 -0600, Thomas Cameron wrote:
First is that you probably shouldn't call it "List Rules". It might be better to call it "Suggestions to ensure the widest readership of your question or problem." This gets the goal across nicely.
Amen - when I saw the subject "List Rules," it actually got my back up a bit.
Isn't that a bit of an extreme reaction? Before anyone reads this post further, please know that I disagree with this party's approach.
This is a community. It is certainly nice for people to be aware of and try to follow the community standards of behavior. However, calling them "rules" implies that there is a firm structure in place.
"Rules" implies no such thing! I recall this matter being an issue in "Pirates of the Caribbean" regarding the "Rules of Parlay".
Here is one definition of rules: Established standards, guides, or regulations set up by authority. Check it out at http://www.hyperdictionary.com/dictionary/rules
Yes, this is a community. All communities have standards, guides or regulations. They aren't "firm". They are fluid and are open to change. Please don't get your back up because you have decided that "rules" have a definition that is far narrower than what is accepted.
Usually there are punitive consequences for breaking "rules."
No punitive consequences are implied by the definition, nor were any proposed in the original posting! The only "punitive consequence" that might occur would be that your question/problem/perspective may not be appropriately addressed.
Anyone who claims to be the arbiter of, or the enforcer of "the rules" seems to me to be claiming authority that (s)he simply doesn't have.
Now, we move from a incomplete definition of "rules" through the existence of non-existent "punitive measures" to the establishment of an "enforcer". I guess that I should be terrified by now. I'm not. Look, I didn't actually see anyone posing as an "enforcer" in the original posting. However,"Seems to be" tells me that you haven't looked "authority" up.
So, definition of authority: same reference as above 1. [n] official permission or approval; "authority for the program was renewed several times" 2. [n] the power or right to give orders or make decisions; "he has the authority to issue warrants"; "deputies are given authorization to make arrests" 3. [n] freedom from doubt; belief in yourself and your abilities; "his assurance in his superiority did not make him popular"; "after that failure he lost his confidence"; "she spoke with authority" 4. [n] an authoritative written work; "this book is the final authority on the life of Milton" 5. [n] an administrative unit of government; "the Central Intelligence Agency"; "the Census Bureau"; "Office of Management and Budget"; "Tennessee Valley Authority" 6. [n] an expert whose views are taken as definitive; "he is an authority on corporate law" 7. [n] (usually plural) persons who exercise (administrative) control over others; "the authorities have issued a curfew"
Definition 1 doesn't apply since it doesn't refer to a person. Definition 2 and 7 imply control by one group over others. Are these the definitions that got your back up? I would have defined authority more like any of 3, 4, 5 or 6. Probably 6 would be my favourite since I'd be more than willing to accept guidelines from an expert if it ensures that my questions/problems/perspectives will be addressed.
I sense something happening under these words:
I would certainly strive to follow the community standards, and I have no problems gently (preferably off list) pointing a community newcomer to a list of community preferences.
Then you have already grasped the necessity for the rules (you call them community standards) and you are the authority (to the newcomer).
But someone who pops off about violating "the rules" is likely to get an earful from me.
Is this the core of your dissension? How about stating for us all that if someone "pops off" about violations of "the rules", you would not give "an earful". Rather you would take a few minutes to question yourself as to whether or not, you might have actually caused some problems? No community could ask for a better member!
Have a great day!
Rob
Rob ehodgins@telusplanet.net says:
Isn't that a bit of an extreme reaction?
Ever had someone impose a rule on you with no explanation? Like a parent or a teacher?
them "rules" implies that there is a firm structure in place.
"Rules" implies no such thing!
Yes, they do.
regulations set up by authority
The literal definition of the word "rules" isn't the cause of the reaction here. It's the personal reality that causes it. If you perceive authority as arbitrary or capricious, you will certainly be upset by someone attempting to impose rules on you.
In fact, one should question every "rule" or guideline put forth by anyone, within the bounds of the situation.
And it is for precisely this reaction that I suggested a new title. "Rules" and Regulations" are a double edged sword. They certainly can help smooth the way, but they certainly can be abused. And have been throughout history. They are, therefore, loaded words.
- [n] the power or right to give orders or make decisions
Power corrupts.
To be sure, I understand the benefit of standards. But we must be mindful of reality, and try to not use words that stop our message from being heard. Yes, that can go too far, which is why we must also allow for discussions like this.
Please can we stop wasting badnwidth on this. if you feel strongly put up a website with yoru view on etiquette.
Lets try and keeop the list on topic.
thanks'
g/
To unsubscribe: http://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/fedora-list
Mail Lists wrote:
Please can we stop wasting badnwidth on this. if you feel strongly put up a website with yoru view on etiquette.
Lets try and keeop the list on topic.
thanks'
g/
To unsubscribe: http://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/fedora-list
Where in hell were you during true episodes of bandwidth waste!
The fact of the matter is that new subscribers are steadily joining the list as others unsubscribe from time to time. Those new subscribers come to the list with diverse backgrounds, diverse experiences with other mailing lists, and differing levels of prior preparation.
Exchanges like the present thread serve to communicate list conventions to those new subscribers and to facilitate responses to questions from more expert fedora users who want to assist other users.
Bitching and bellyaching about a very modest effort to promote and maintain community conventions is unhelpful at best and bordering on the infantile.
Mail Lists wrote:
Please can we stop wasting badnwidth on this. if you feel strongly put up a website with yoru view on etiquette.
Ok. I thought that I would help, but I guess that my efforts are just a waste of my time and yours. So I will leave just like jdow. I'm sorry but I have much better things to do with my time. However, you folks can continue to argue over which is better and such. I'll just go out and get my MAC, which has a REAL UNIX operating system.
On Sat, 26 Feb 2005 18:07:31 -0700, James McKenzie jjmckenzie51@earthlink.net wrote:
Mail Lists wrote:
Please can we stop wasting badnwidth on this. if you feel strongly put up a website with yoru view on etiquette.
no. its not. collect the feedback and post the result to fedora docs list
and get my MAC, which has a REAL UNIX operating system.
Unix is no more just an operating system. its a trade mark given to a class of operating systems if they certify with open group. neither Macs or Linux distributions have done that with the possible exception of caldera Linux.
On Sat, 2005-02-26 at 18:07 -0700, James McKenzie wrote:
Mail Lists wrote:
Please can we stop wasting badnwidth on this. if you feel strongly put up a website with yoru view on etiquette.
Ok. I thought that I would help, but I guess that my efforts are just a waste of my time and yours. So I will leave just like jdow. I'm sorry but I have much better things to do with my time. However, you folks can continue to argue over which is better and such. I'll just go out and get my MAC, which has a REAL UNIX operating system.
---- I guess I don't get some people
Joanne ? - she was gonna leave anyway
You ? - do what you feel is right
The notion of ego's is so absurd - this is a mail list for people to learn / exchange info on Fedora.
People need to restrain their ego's while sitting at the keyboard Not take everything so damn seriously Not try to control everything Learn to use the Delete key Learn to click Close Box sometimes instead of Send
The MAC comment about REAL UNIX was stupid baiting - People need to figure out that it's just computers - they're called tools.
Craig
----- Original Message ----- From: "Hodgins Family" ehodgins@telusplanet.net To: fedora-list@redhat.com Sent: Saturday, February 26, 2005 2:38 PM Subject: Re: List Rules
Good afternoon!
<drivel snipped>
Have a great day!
Um, sure.
Rob
This type of hair-splitting, barracks-lawyering claptrap is exactly what I am talking about. People like this are the ones who will take "the rules" and decide that it is their job to publicly gripe if your signature doesn't have a space after the hyphens, or your .sig is too long, too short, politically correct, or whatever. Screw that.
How about this - if you don't like someone's post, delete it. Or maybe refer them (preferably privately) to ESR's "How To Ask Questions The Smart Way." It isn't your (or my) place to tell anyone how they should live their life, whether it is wearing some color after a certain date or using HTML or top posting or [fill in your favorite stupid peeve that some nimrod is bound to gripe about].
If the owner of this list (that would be Red Hat) wants to impose rules, then so be it. It's their bandwidth, their servers, their product. But if someone who has no more or less standing (we're all volunteers here except Warren Togami and Colin Charles) than me tries to tell me what "the rules" are, I'm going to tell them to go pound sand.
Now seriously, let this stupid thread die.
Cheers, Thomas
On Sat, Feb 26, 2005 at 07:01:29PM -0600, Thomas Cameron wrote:
This type of hair-splitting, barracks-lawyering claptrap is exactly what I .................
How about this - if you don't like someone's post, delete it. Or maybe refer them (preferably privately) to ESR's "How To Ask Questions The Smart Way." It isn't your (or my) place to tell anyone how they should live their life,
Hi Tom, Sorry to bring this up, but you are shooting your self in the foot (figuratively).
One of the principles ESR strongly promotes in "How To Ask Questions The Smart Way." is that you correct people in public, not private.
He urges people to do it loudly, in public, on the list. Why? This way the community standards are made visible to newcomers and if discussion or debate is needed, then it happens in public where everyone can participate/benefit/ignore as it suits them.
A quick analysis of the content of the list will show that these standards are in common use and practice. Keeping them visible has definitely been good for the list.
I see from your five line attribution that you use Outlook - There is a fix for this and other defects in Outlook here:
To fix Outlook: http://home.in.tum.de/~jain/software/outlook-quotefix/
To fix outlook express: http://home.in.tum.de/~jain/software/oe-quotefix/
Good afternoon!
On Sat, 2005-02-26 at 19:01 -0600, Thomas Cameron wrote:
----- Original Message ----- From: "Hodgins Family" ehodgins@telusplanet.net To: fedora-list@redhat.com Sent: Saturday, February 26, 2005 2:38 PM Subject: Re: List Rules
Good afternoon!
<drivel snipped>
I'm truly sorry you decided my reply was drivel and not worth consideration, my friend. You might have learned something.
Have a great day!
Um, sure.
Well, did you? Or did you go back and re-read what the original post actually said.....rather than making it up all by your lonesome self?
This type of hair-splitting, barracks-lawyering claptrap is exactly what I am talking about. People like this are the ones who will take "the rules" and decide that it is their job to publicly gripe if your signature doesn't have a space after the hyphens, or your .sig is too long, too short, politically correct, or whatever. Screw that.
No hair splitting here, old friend. Read my post again. I seek to broaden the "hairs" that you are narrowing. You are narrowing the meanings of accepted words and meanings. Why?
Frankly, I don't care how you present yourself to the public. Make your signature without a space after the hyphens, if you think you must. Make your .sig too long, too short, politically correct, or whatever. Wear a tattoo, a mohawk. Screw this, that or anything within reach. But Mr. Cameron, don't you think you would be less confusing to the rest of us if you could spare a few seconds to sit down and try to understand (and that means reading prior postings and looking up what words mean, Mr. Cameron) what is being offered LONG BEFORE spinning horror stories of punishments and telling us what the words "really" mean (or imply, or seem to mean).
How about this - if you don't like someone's post, delete it.
You, me and everybody else are a part of a community. We all have a stake in how we conduct ourselves. And we use words to communicate. I don't enjoy anybody dictating to me what words in common usage "really" mean (Nice try, though :)). Especially, when the offered definitions are demonstrably too narrow. I will not just delete you and hope you don't exist any more. You do. So does your ignorance. So does your arrogance...
You might want to be brought up to speed not only on current practices in societies and communities, but also in current word usage. Here's a tip: buy a dictionary, join the community. And stop spinning scary stories about punishments and authorities who use them. They don't exist. Relax, calm down, and then you can contribute something worthwhile. (Breathe! Breathe!)
Or maybe refer them (preferably privately) to ESR's "How To Ask Questions The Smart Way." It isn't your (or my) place to tell anyone how they should live their life, whether it is wearing some color after a certain date or using HTML or top posting or [fill in your favorite stupid peeve that some nimrod is bound to gripe about].
Well okay, if your HTML sent me a nasty, yeah that is your place. No, that is your problem, because you made it mine. And, my friend, it would be my place to ensure that you helped me clean up your mess. And wear whatever colour pleases you (although I don't see how this is relevant to the original post...oh, you still haven't read the original post, have you?). I guess that my favorite stupid peeve is that you are reacting to what you think words mean and are content to stay self-righteous in spite of your ignorance.
If the owner of this list (that would be Red Hat) wants to impose rules, then so be it. It's their bandwidth, their servers, their product. But if someone who has no more or less standing (we're all volunteers here except Warren Togami and Colin Charles) than me tries to tell me what "the rules" are, I'm going to tell them to go pound sand
Owners, so far, haven't entered the list with rules, punishments or authorities. Oooh, Mister Cameron, where are they? It is just you and the rest of us, with you telling us what words "really" mean. Pretentious creature!
If someone who has no more or less standing (we're all volunteers here except Warren Togami and Colin Charles) than me tries to tell me what our words mean, I'm going to tell them to go pound sand.
And I have found the sand! Mr. Cameron, box your ears, and know that you have found the sand.
Good day, Mr. Cameron.
On Sun, 27 Feb 2005 17:31:25 -0700 Hodgins Family ehodgins@telusplanet.net insightfully noted:
<snipping the rant a bit> HF>Owners, so far, haven't entered the list with rules, punishments or HF>authorities. Oooh, Mister Cameron, where are they? It is just you and HF>the rest of us, with you telling us what words "really" mean. HF>Pretentious creature! ================================ I'm not certain who's more pretentious, "Mr. Cameron" or Hodgins Family. <sigh> =============================== HF> HF>If someone who has no more or less standing (we're all volunteers here HF>except Warren Togami and Colin Charles) than me tries to tell me what HF>our words mean, I'm going to tell them to go pound sand. HF> HF>And I have found the sand! Mr. Cameron, box your ears, and know that HF>you have found the sand. HF> HF>Good day, Mr. Cameron. ============================ PLONK!
Not sure what any of this has to do with fedora, but thank goodness for filters.........
On Sun, 2005-02-27 at 17:31 -0700, Hodgins Family wrote:
Good afternoon!
---- feel better now that you've said your piece? I hope so.
Since the person that started the thread said he was unsubbing the list and it's clear that there always will be some who want to put a voice to some rules on this list and some who will voice their opposition to said rules this will never be resolved.
- NOT EVER -
Of course, people can continue just kicking a dead dog...
Your choice...
Craig
Hacksaw wrote:
This is actually a misinterpretation of a much better idea: When replying to a message, quote the relevant passage you are replying to as concisely as possible, preceeding each line with a non alphanumeric, preferably '>', then add your reply in plain text.
Repeat as necessary.
Good suggestion. Thank you for it.
- Search the list archives before posting a question.
This leads me to another important suggestion. To aid in the searching, please write subject lines that concisely tag the message. For instance, if you are having a problem getting past the partitioning phase of an install of FC3, don't set the subject to "Install Fails", set it to "Can't get past partitioning on FC3".
Again, I will add this.
Two other suggestions come to mind here. First is that you probably shouldn't call it "List Rules". It might be better to call it "Suggestions to ensure the widest readership of your question or problem." This gets the goal across nicely.
The eventual goal is to send these to Red Hat management to be adopted and send to 'new' list members and to be made available on the Fedora web site. This is why I posted them to the list for refinement by the members of the list.
The second is that ad hominem attacks probably won't result in positive action. In fact, in the old days, a million years ago in Internet time, we called those sorts of posts "Trolls".
This is the number one reason that we need 'guidelines' on acceptable conduct. One of those guidelines is to leave moderation of the list to the moderators. I've seen many messages about 'rule' infractions, but no published rules to back them up.
On Sat, 2005-02-26 at 12:31 -0700, James McKenzie wrote:
The second is that ad hominem attacks probably won't result in positive action. In fact, in the old days, a million years ago in Internet time, we called those sorts of posts "Trolls".
This is the number one reason that we need 'guidelines' on acceptable conduct. One of those guidelines is to leave moderation of the list to the moderators. I've seen many messages about 'rule' infractions, but no published rules to back them up.
---- I don't quarrel with your motivations but I do quarrel with your expectations.
1 - This is Red Hat server and they make the rules. They have deliberately chosen to keep the rules to a minimum. They are going to let pretty much everything slide that isn't entirely disrupted to the commerce of the list.
2 - You are confusing convention with etiquette and then rfc standards - they are clearly not the same thing at all.
Convention would have a large amount of email programs putting in a "> " at the beginning of each line copied from the original into a reply. This is almost always configurable on the mail client (I don't know of one that doesn't offer configuration options). Some clients (mutt comes to mind) will use "_ " for this purpose by default - who cares? This isn't rfc (there's no standard to point to). In essence, you are converting this convention into an etiquette because it suits you.
3 - There is always an outcry when someone tries to be 'list mom' and point out transgressions - not that I care but it tends to drag the list into an argument about the suitability. Thus the intent of having some set of rules to minimize useless traffic becomes the cause for more useless traffic. My personal belief is that I can filter out most of the stuff either by sending specific user to /dev/null or by deleting threads but people 'spamming' list with commercial inducements - whether direct or by indirect viral marketing tend to rankle me.
If you go back to the routing weekly posting that 'Melgil' used to post about FC-2 stuff last Sept/Oct/Nov, that seemed to be the type of thing that has value - most of what you are discussing, despite all good intentions, strikes me as fairly useless.
Generally, when someone isn't getting it, I tend to point them to: http://www.catb.org/~esr/faqs/smart-questions.html
Craig
On Sat, Feb 26, 2005 at 01:23:25PM -0700, Craig White wrote:
1 - This is Red Hat server and they make the rules. They have deliberately chosen to keep the rules to a minimum. They are going to let pretty much everything slide that isn't entirely disrupted to the commerce of the list.
Err, sure. Therefore it's nice for the community to have some basic standards of our own.
Convention would have a large amount of email programs putting in a "> " at the beginning of each line copied from the original into a reply. This is almost always configurable on the mail client (I don't know of one that doesn't offer configuration options). Some clients (mutt comes to mind) will use "_ " for this purpose by default - who cares? This
Um, mutt uses "> " by default. I've never heard of "_ " being anything's default.
I believe this subject can be found in the archives. You might want to start back about 6 months and read every single thread. By the time that all of the threads are completely read, you will realize that this topic is more apt to waste bandwidth than to actually solve anything.
Jim
On Sat, Feb 26, 2005 at 01:23:25PM -0700, Craig White wrote:
1 - This is Red Hat server and they make the rules. They have deliberately chosen to keep the rules to a minimum. They are going to let pretty much everything slide that isn't entirely disrupted to the commerce of the list.
True - RedHat has the approach of mostly letting the communities that form around each mailing list be self governing. In this sense, each community gets to decide what standards/practices it needs to follow.
2 - You are confusing convention with etiquette and then rfc standards - they are clearly not the same thing at all.
False - See RFC 1855 which covers Netiquette Guidelines
http://www.faqs.org/rfcs/rfc1855.html
Pay special attention to section 3 "One-to-Many Communication" which covers how to use mailing lists, and which, coincidentally, the recently posted "list rules" are largely a copy of.
Generally, when someone isn't getting it, I tend to point them to: http://www.catb.org/~esr/faqs/smart-questions.html
An Excellent document which says, by the way - the way to point it out to them is to do so in public.
Quote from the RedHat Install List Guidelines quoting ESR: ################################################################# This is a quote from Eric Raymond and Rick Moen's paper on "How to ask for help the smart way":
"Community standards do not maintain themselves: They're maintained by people actively applying them, visibly, in public. Don't whine that all criticism should have been conveyed via private mail: That's not how it works. Nor is it useful to insist you've been personally insulted when someone comments that one of your claims was wrong, or that his views differ. Those are loser attitudes."
#################################################################
On Sun, 2005-02-27 at 09:36 -0500, Jeff Kinz wrote:
On Sat, Feb 26, 2005 at 01:23:25PM -0700, Craig White wrote:
2 - You are confusing convention with etiquette and then rfc standards - they are clearly not the same thing at all.
False - See RFC 1855 which covers Netiquette Guidelines
http://www.faqs.org/rfcs/rfc1855.html
Pay special attention to section 3 "One-to-Many Communication" which covers how to use mailing lists, and which, coincidentally, the recently posted "list rules" are largely a copy of.
---- but of course, that doesn't say anything about prefacing each line of a quote reply with '> ' and I'm quite sure that there was more ad-hoc extensions.
this topic has been beaten to death
Craig
On Sun, Feb 27, 2005 at 08:07:15AM -0700, Craig White wrote:
On Sun, 2005-02-27 at 09:36 -0500, Jeff Kinz wrote:
http://www.faqs.org/rfcs/rfc1855.html
Pay special attention to section 3 "One-to-Many Communication" which covers how to use mailing lists, and which, coincidentally, the recently posted "list rules" are largely a copy of.
but of course, that doesn't say anything about prefacing each line of a quote reply with '> '
A 'net convention so widely subscribed to that even MS software defaults to it - they probably felt it was such a given they didn't need to mention it.
and I'm quite sure that there was more ad-hoc extensions.
Nope. If there were I'm sure you would have pointed them out. Its a good short list (referring to the "List rules" post).
this topic has been beaten to death
And will continue to be. 'Tis the nature of the net. :)
On Fri, 25 Feb 2005 20:47:30 -0700, James McKenzie jjmckenzie51@earthlink.net wrote:
All:
Here is the first edition of the List Rules.
Nice work here James.
The first thing is that I, like you, are a regular member of the list but have read through many messages about 'netequitte' within this list.
[snip]
- Place your replies at the bottom of messages. This is an old method
used for many years. Preface any text to be replied to with a character, most folks use a greater than sign '>' but any special printable character will suffice.
Maybe you should mention that this is the default for most mail client when using plain text messages (the prefixing stuff). Also, you might mention to trim parts of the message that you are not replying to directly. There have been a couple of suggestions here that I liked, such as place your reply below the text you are replying to (this works with in-text replies) and the suggested verbiage changes works well too.
[snip]
this release, including making Secure Linux (SELinux) a default.
Minor thing, but SELinux is Security-Enhanced Linux :).
[snip]
- To unsubscibe from the list you can visit the Fedora Mail List web
Perhaps add here, "so please do not send 'unsubscribe' requests to the list" :)
Another couple of things come to mind. Along with the choosing a good subject bit suggested already, make sure if you use digest mode to change the subject appropriately, and do not quote the entire digest message. Perhaps we should discourage the use of digest mode, since it seems to be counter-productive in most instances.
Also maybe something about changing the subject if and only if the topic of the thread changes. At least for me, small changes in the subject line cause Gmail to treat it as another thread and that can be annoying to have bits a pieces to a thread in different spots. This isn't really a mainstream one, but I thought I'd throw it out there to see what people thought.
I really think we need to have some rules here. I know I had never heard the term top-posting before it was mentioned on the list, as well as several other netiquette terms mentioned here. How are people going to know they are not doing things right if they are never told? If I help someone out who has sent HTML mail or top-posted, I always try to send them a little PS to let them know about it. I don't think people should send emails to the list only telling someone that they are not following proper netiquette. If you are going to do that, send the email off-list, directly to the person. Those are my thoughts on the "list cop" accusations.
Jonathan
On Fri, 25 Feb 2005 20:47:30 -0700, James McKenzie jjmckenzie51@earthlink.net wrote:
All:
Here is the first edition of the List Rules.
The first thing is that I, like you, are a regular member of the list but have read through many messages about 'netequitte' within this list.
Just a couple of hints:
I think a lot of this is already covered in Eric S. Raymond's Howto "How To Ask Questions The Smart Way".
URL: http://www.catb.org/~esr/faqs/smart-questions.html
Perhaps that document can be used as a resource for your list, or perhaps it can simply be adopted or suggested as good reading to new folks.
Christofer C. Bell wrote:
On Fri, 25 Feb 2005 20:47:30 -0700, James McKenzie jjmckenzie51@earthlink.net wrote: I think a lot of this is already covered in Eric S. Raymond's Howto "How To Ask Questions The Smart Way".
URL: http://www.catb.org/~esr/faqs/smart-questions.html
Perhaps that document can be used as a resource for your list, or perhaps it can simply be adopted or suggested as good reading to new folks.
Good resource. I will add it to the "How to Ask Smart Questions on the Fedora Lists" guidance document.
I've gone through most of the posts on this and would like to submit draft 2 based on many of the comments - at least the ones who think this is worth doing at all... Please read it through and ammend/ correct / reorganise as you see fit.
If you wish to suggest minor changes do so by reposting but applying your own name. For major changes please change the draft number. That way we can see what's happening and the archive will document our progress (or lack thereof).
Or, does someone have a wiki we could develop this on - posting periodically back to the list?
I have... a. Tried to simplify the language for non-native english speakers. b. Tried to seperate the points more c. Added some links where relevant d. Tried to take accusatory language out (we can see on this thread that some peope are _very_ sensative) e. gone for the boring name modeled on the RHIL f. I've removed the reference to signatures. So seldom a problem it doesn't seem worth the agrivation. g. hereby aknowledged the good work of James McKenzie in starting this. But he says he's left now - hope he comes back. x. Added a whole new section two: "The ten most useful resources for finding the answer before asking the list."
I hope this is helpful.
Duncan (accepting all comment and criticism but ignoring all flames)
################
Part One: Fedora Core Support List Unofficial User's Guide Part Two: The ten most useful resources for finding the answer before asking the list.
======= Part One: Fedora Core Support List Unofficial User's Guide =======
Introduction: We are all regular member of the list and discussion about netequitte is ongoing. Previously established conventions are always being re-questions. So, please read this in the spirit of creating an evolving concensus. This guide is in the spirit of the "RedHat Install List (RHIL) Unofficial User's Guide" [1] and "How To Ask Questions The Smart Way" [2]
4. Search for the answer before posting a question. See part two. (Why? You'll learn more and might just fix it yourself. )
2. Set your mailer to send only plain text messages to the list [3]. (Why? HTML is designed for web pages not emails, and uses a lot more bandwidth. Many list members actually block HTML because it is used for malicious code. [4] )
3. Make a subject line that tells us what you need. Try "Can't get past partitioning on FC3" instead of "Argg - help me!!!". Why? So that the right people read it.
4. Make sure we can tell what you are replying to. Place each part of your reply after the text it addresses and delete unneeded text. Most mail readers put a '>' character in front of each replied to line. (Why? It gives a conversational flow to the text, and people know what you're replying to.)
5. To unsubscibe from the list you can visit the Fedora Mail List web page at http://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/fedora-list
[1] http://www.rhil.net/docs/rhil-guide.html [2] http://www.catb.org/~esr/faqs/smart-questions.html [3] http://www.expita.com/nomime.html [4] http://www.georgedillon.com/web/html_email_is_evil.shtml
====== Part Two: The ten most useful resources for finding the answer before asking fedora-list. ======
1. Run the 'man' command. Get a terminal window by right clicking on the desktop. In the window type (without the '$') $ man <application-name> Substitute <application-name> with the name of the application you are having trouble with.
2. Search the fedora-list archive http://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/fedora-list
3. Search http://google.com and http://google.com/linux
4. Look through the Linux Documentation Project http://www.tldp.org/
5. Read the Fedora Core Release Notes http://fedora.redhat.com/docs/release-notes/
6. Look through The Unofficial Fedora FAQ: http://www.fedorafaq.org/ 7. 8. 9. 10.
#############
======
- Run the 'man' command. Get a terminal window by right clicking on
the desktop. In the window type (without the '$') $ man <application-name> Substitute <application-name> with the name of the application you are having trouble with.
info command name locate <stuff you want to know about> rpm -qd <packagename>
fedora.redhat.com/docs redhat.com/docs fedoratracker.org fedoraproject.org/extras
On Mon, 28 Feb 2005 15:16:24 +0530, Rahul Sundaram wrote:
======
- Run the 'man' command. Get a terminal window by right clicking on
the desktop. In the window type (without the '$') $ man <application-name> Substitute <application-name> with the name of the application you are having trouble with.
info command name locate <stuff you want to know about> rpm -qd <packagename>
I'm in the habit of using rpm -q, and also man; so I tried man rpm (wow!), and dug for -d. It told me a little in two places about doc[ument(s)] -- but that tells me nothing, alas! What does rpm -qd do for you in practice that rpm -q does not??
beartooth wrote:
On Mon, 28 Feb 2005 15:16:24 +0530, Rahul Sundaram wrote:
======
- Run the 'man' command. Get a terminal window by right clicking on
the desktop. In the window type (without the '$') $ man <application-name> Substitute <application-name> with the name of the application you are having trouble with.
info command name locate <stuff you want to know about> rpm -qd <packagename>
I'm in the habit of using rpm -q, and also man; so I tried man rpm (wow!), and dug for -d. It told me a little in two places about doc[ument(s)] -- but that tells me nothing, alas! What does rpm -qd do for you in practice that rpm -q does not??
Please continue discussion above under a suitable thread title.
On Mon, Feb 28, 2005 at 10:40:18AM +0100, Duncan Lithgow wrote:
I've gone through most of the posts on this and would like to submit draft 2 based on many of the comments - at least the ones who think this is worth doing at all... Please read it through and ammend/ correct / reorganise as you see fit.
Good re-write, thank you.
I think some of the objection to "The Rules" is that the objectors see them as arbitrary. They are not arbitrary, but have good reasons behind them. Your "Why" sections help bring out those reasons.
From reading the foofaraw Mr. McKenzie's original post generated, I suspect that it is worthwile to mention that one advantage to following netiquette is that you are more likely to get your question answered if you do.
Introduction: We are all regular member of the list and discussion about netequitte is ongoing. Previously established conventions are always being re-questions. So, please read this in the spirit of creating an evolving concensus. This guide is in the spirit of the "RedHat Install List (RHIL) Unofficial User's Guide" [1] and "How To Ask Questions The Smart Way" [2]
You may also find useful http://www.charlescurley.com/netiquette.html.
- Make a subject line that tells us what you need. Try "Can't get
past partitioning on FC3" instead of "Argg - help me!!!". Why? So that the right people read it.
On medium and high traffic lists (such as this one), many people decide whether to read a message solely on the subject line. This is not obvious to people who are new to mailing lists.
- Make sure we can tell what you are replying to. Place each part of
your reply after the text it addresses and delete unneeded text. Most mail readers put a '>' character in front of each replied to line. (Why? It gives a conversational flow to the text, and people know what you're replying to.)
4.5. Trim irrelevant material. Why? It makes it eaier to read your reply and helps the reader to stay on subject.
On Mon, 28 Feb 2005 10:40:18 +0100, Duncan Lithgow duncan@lithgow-schmidt.dk wrote:
I've gone through most of the posts on this and would like to submit draft 2 based on many of the comments - at least the ones who think this is worth doing at all... Please read it through and ammend/ correct / reorganise as you see fit.
If you wish to suggest minor changes do so by reposting but applying your own name. For major changes please change the draft number. That way we can see what's happening and the archive will document our progress (or lack thereof).
Or, does someone have a wiki we could develop this on - posting periodically back to the list?
I have... a. Tried to simplify the language for non-native english speakers. b. Tried to seperate the points more c. Added some links where relevant d. Tried to take accusatory language out (we can see on this thread that some peope are _very_ sensative) e. gone for the boring name modeled on the RHIL f. I've removed the reference to signatures. So seldom a problem it doesn't seem worth the agrivation. g. hereby aknowledged the good work of James McKenzie in starting this. But he says he's left now - hope he comes back. x. Added a whole new section two: "The ten most useful resources for finding the answer before asking the list."
I hope this is helpful.
Duncan (accepting all comment and criticism but ignoring all flames)
################
Part One: Fedora Core Support List Unofficial User's Guide Part Two: The ten most useful resources for finding the answer before asking the list.
======= Part One: Fedora Core Support List Unofficial User's Guide =======
Introduction: We are all regular member of the list and discussion about netequitte is ongoing. Previously established conventions are always being re-questions. So, please read this in the spirit of creating an evolving concensus. This guide is in the spirit of the "RedHat Install List (RHIL) Unofficial User's Guide" [1] and "How To Ask Questions The Smart Way" [2]
- Search for the answer before posting a question. See part two.
(Why? You'll learn more and might just fix it yourself. )
- Set your mailer to send only plain text messages to the list [3].
(Why? HTML is designed for web pages not emails, and uses a lot more bandwidth. Many list members actually block HTML because it is used for malicious code. [4] )
Duncan, this is great. I would like to put in a plug for one more etiquette suggestion for section 2 of part one:
b) When you send in a new topic, do not start by replying to an existing message, but rather, start a new message to "fedora-list@redhat.com". This keeps messages organized by thread, for people who like to use threads (on high-volume mailing lists like this one, threads can be a great convenience).
I confess that I came to this discussion late, and maybe you have already talked about this issue. It does come up frequently, however, and probably deserves to be in the new-user guide.
Thanks, Matt
On Mon, 28 Feb 2005 13:46:22 -0500, Matt Morgan minxmertzmomo@gmail.com wrote:
b) When you send in a new topic, do not start by replying to an existing message, but rather, start a new message to "fedora-list@redhat.com". This keeps messages organized by thread, for people who like to use threads (on high-volume mailing lists like this one, threads can be a great convenience).
I second that.
Another thing that may be interesting is to suggest the person who made the original post to, when a solution to his problem is found, finish the discussion with a last post adding something like [SOLVED] to the subject line, and indicating /what/ exactly solved the problem. That should help the readers to know the problem was finally solved without even having to read the messages; helps the monthly statistics; helps *a lot* when searching the archives later.
One question, though. How are these rules going to be made known? If I may make a suggestion, I think a monthly mail reminder would be good. Also, it could be kept in a web page, and a link to this page added in the bottom of the messages, together with the "Fedora-list" things.
On Tue, 1 Mar 2005 01:12:35 -0600, Gustavo Seabra gustavo.seabra@gmail.com wrote:
Another thing that may be interesting is to suggest the person who made the original post to, when a solution to his problem is found, finish the discussion with a last post adding something like [SOLVED] to the subject line, and indicating /what/ exactly solved the problem. That should help the readers to know the problem was finally solved without even having to read the messages; helps the monthly statistics; helps *a lot* when searching the archives later.
Unfortunately, changing the subject lines breaks threading. It makes it look like an entirely new thread. The archives, news readers, and some mail programs (gmail) can sort messages into conversations based on the subject line. If you change the subject line, then the "Solved" portion of the message shows up as another thread.
What might be better is to suggest NOT changing subject lines and to know that if you happen to be looking at the archives, the end of the thread may have a solution for you.
On Tuesday 01 March 2005 08:38 am, David Hoffman wrote:
On Tue, 1 Mar 2005 01:12:35 -0600, Gustavo Seabra
gustavo.seabra@gmail.com wrote:
Another thing that may be interesting is to suggest the person who made the original post to, when a solution to his problem is found, finish the discussion with a last post adding something like [SOLVED] to the subject line, and indicating /what/ exactly solved the problem. That should help the readers to know the problem was finally solved without even having to read the messages; helps the monthly statistics; helps *a lot* when searching the archives later.
Unfortunately, changing the subject lines breaks threading. It makes it look like an entirely new thread.
Tain't necessarily so. Changing the subject line does *not* break the thread on real^H^H^H^Hmany mail readers. People who indulge in this practice are commonly referred to as "hijackers". (Remember, just because Microsoft products work that way doesn't mean that it is correct.)
The archives, news readers, and some mail programs (gmail) can sort messages into conversations based on the subject line. If you change the subject line, then the "Solved" portion of the message shows up as another thread.
Again, not on real^H^H^H^Hmany mail readers. Also, you are mistaken about the archives. Both the MARC and Redhat archives *do* preserve threads.
What might be better is to suggest NOT changing subject lines and to know that if you happen to be looking at the archives, the end of the thread may have a solution for you.
"may" is too indefinite. I'd rather know that the proposed solution was indeed effective in at least one case; [SOLVED] is good.
-- cmg
On Tue, 1 Mar 2005 10:44:45 -0500, Carroll Grigsby cgrigs@earthlink.net wrote:
The archives, news readers, and some mail programs (gmail) can sort messages into conversations based on the subject line. If you change the subject line, then the "Solved" portion of the message shows up as another thread.
Again, not on real^H^H^H^Hmany mail readers. Also, you are mistaken about the archives. Both the MARC and Redhat archives *do* preserve threads.
Are you sure about that? Take a closer look at MARC archives. What's wrong with these threads? They only show the "SOLVED" part of the thread, but dropped off what led up to the solution. Changing the subject line made it start a new thread.
http://marc.theaimsgroup.com/?t=110931389000001&r=1&w=2 http://marc.theaimsgroup.com/?t=110916514900004&r=1&w=2 http://marc.theaimsgroup.com/?t=110910991400007&r=1&w=2
On Tuesday 01 March 2005 11:34 am, David Hoffman wrote:
On Tue, 1 Mar 2005 10:44:45 -0500, Carroll Grigsby cgrigs@earthlink.net
wrote:
snip
Also, you are mistaken about the archives. Both the MARC and Redhat archives *do* preserve threads.
Are you sure about that? Take a closer look at MARC archives. What's wrong with these threads? They only show the "SOLVED" part of the thread, but dropped off what led up to the solution. Changing the subject line made it start a new thread.
http://marc.theaimsgroup.com/?t=110931389000001&r=1&w=2 http://marc.theaimsgroup.com/?t=110916514900004&r=1&w=2 http://marc.theaimsgroup.com/?t=110910991400007&r=1&w=2
David: My bad about MARC preserving threads. As noted by others, RH's Fedora archives do preserve threading and that's a good thing. -- cmg
On Tue, 1 Mar 2005 21:45:11 -0500, Carroll Grigsby cgrigs@earthlink.net wrote:
On Tuesday 01 March 2005 11:34 am, David Hoffman wrote: David: My bad about MARC preserving threads. As noted by others, RH's Fedora archives do preserve threading and that's a good thing.
Yes, I saw that earlier too. It's just unfortunate that the RH archive server is so slow, and the search function doesn't return the thread, but the individual messages, so it makes it hard to see the whole thread unless you go to the individual month thread that the message was part of.
On Tue, 1 Mar 2005 07:38:27 -0600 David Hoffman dhoffman2004@gmail.com wrote:
Unfortunately, changing the subject lines breaks threading. It makes it look like an entirely new thread. The archives, news readers, and some mail programs (gmail) can sort messages into conversations based on the subject line. If you change the subject line, then the "Solved" portion of the message shows up as another thread.
Don't most readers sort messages into threads based on References headers and not the subject line?
On Tue, 1 Mar 2005 11:34:10 -0500, Charles E Taylor IV tomalek@mindspring.com wrote:
Unfortunately, changing the subject lines breaks threading. It makes it look like an entirely new thread. The archives, news readers, and some mail programs (gmail) can sort messages into conversations based on the subject line. If you change the subject line, then the "Solved" portion of the message shows up as another thread.
Don't most readers sort messages into threads based on References headers and not the subject line?
That would depend on what reader you are using. But if we are going to try to impress on people that they should search the archives before posting FAQs to the list, shouldn't we try to make the archives as useful as possible?
The archives are sorted by subject line. Here's a quick example. The two links below go to two DIFFERENT threads on the same archive site. The only reason they were listed as different threads is because "SOLVED" was added to the subject line. These links only lead to a test message, but there are many other instances that I have found on the same archive site that do the same thing. (And the same is true for the redhat archive site).
http://marc.theaimsgroup.com/?t=110930289600001&r=1&w=2 http://marc.theaimsgroup.com/?t=110931389000001&r=1&w=2
On Tue, 1 Mar 2005 11:35:20 -0600, David Hoffman dhoffman2004@gmail.com wrote:
On Tue, 1 Mar 2005 11:34:10 -0500, Charles E Taylor IV tomalek@mindspring.com wrote:
Unfortunately, changing the subject lines breaks threading. It makes it look like an entirely new thread. The archives, news readers, and some mail programs (gmail) can sort messages into conversations based on the subject line. If you change the subject line, then the "Solved" portion of the message shows up as another thread.
Don't most readers sort messages into threads based on References headers and not the subject line?
That would depend on what reader you are using. But if we are going to try to impress on people that they should search the archives before posting FAQs to the list, shouldn't we try to make the archives as useful as possible?
The archives are sorted by subject line. Here's a quick example. The two links below go to two DIFFERENT threads on the same archive site. The only reason they were listed as different threads is because "SOLVED" was added to the subject line. These links only lead to a test message, but there are many other instances that I have found on the same archive site that do the same thing. (And the same is true for the redhat archive site).
http://marc.theaimsgroup.com/?t=110930289600001&r=1&w=2 http://marc.theaimsgroup.com/?t=110931389000001&r=1&w=2
Wouldn't that be the case to write to the administrators of such archives (apparently including RH) to fix this? IMHO this should be considered a *bug*, and a relatively serious one, specially for archives.
On Tue, 1 Mar 2005 11:35:20 -0600 David Hoffman dhoffman2004@gmail.com wrote:
The archives are sorted by subject line. Here's a quick example. The two links below go to two DIFFERENT threads on the same archive site. The only reason they were listed as different threads is because "SOLVED" was added to the subject line. These links only lead to a test message, but there are many other instances that I have found on the same archive site that do the same thing. (And the same is true for the redhat archive site).
http://marc.theaimsgroup.com/?t=110930289600001&r=1&w=2 http://marc.theaimsgroup.com/?t=110931389000001&r=1&w=2
... but the official archives sorts this thread correctly. Isn't the issue really that the marc archive has broken threading?
For example, see
https://www.redhat.com/archives/fedora-list/2005-February/thread.html
The "Test, please ignore" messages are sorted this way:
# Test, Please ignore., Gustavo Seabra * Re: Test, Please ignore. [Solved], Gustavo Seabra o Re: Test, Please ignore. [Solved], jim lawrence
(in other words, adding "solved" does NOT break the thread.
On Tue, 1 Mar 2005 14:33:51 -0500, Charles E Taylor IV tomalek@mindspring.com wrote:
... but the official archives sorts this thread correctly. Isn't the issue really that the marc archive has broken threading?
For example, see
https://www.redhat.com/archives/fedora-list/2005-February/thread.html
I swear I looked for that earlier and I couldn't find it. But you are correct, it looks like that list does hold the threads.
YES, this is the "official" site, but unfortunately, the server that maintains that list is fairly well taxed, and access to it is slow at best. Not to mention that the search function sometimes needs to be hit a few times to find results. I think you will find that there are many users who prefer to use MARC or GMANE or one of the other archiving sites out there.
On Tue, 1 Mar 2005 13:38:49 -0600, David Hoffman dhoffman2004@gmail.com wrote:
Another issue is that the "official" site groups threads by the month they were posted, and in that view you can see the entire thread. However, if you try to do a search for a particular issue, (and IF the search actually works) it lists a long listing of individual messages without showing the thread. Opening an individual message can show you the "Follow-up" and "Reference" links, but you have to do a lot of clicking to follow the whole thread.
I'm not saying that the official site is bad... (well, yeah, I guess I am) it's just that there are better sites that are faster, better organized, and easier to search.
On Tue, 2005-03-01 at 14:33 -0500, Charles E Taylor IV wrote:
On Tue, 1 Mar 2005 11:35:20 -0600 David Hoffman dhoffman2004@gmail.com wrote:
The archives are sorted by subject line. Here's a quick example. The two links below go to two DIFFERENT threads on the same archive site. The only reason they were listed as different threads is because "SOLVED" was added to the subject line. These links only lead to a test message, but there are many other instances that I have found on the same archive site that do the same thing. (And the same is true for the redhat archive site).
http://marc.theaimsgroup.com/?t=110930289600001&r=1&w=2 http://marc.theaimsgroup.com/?t=110931389000001&r=1&w=2
... but the official archives sorts this thread correctly. Isn't the issue really that the marc archive has broken threading?
For example, see
https://www.redhat.com/archives/fedora-list/2005-February/thread.html
The "Test, please ignore" messages are sorted this way:
# Test, Please ignore., Gustavo Seabra * Re: Test, Please ignore. [Solved], Gustavo Seabra o Re: Test, Please ignore. [Solved], jim lawrence
(in other words, adding "solved" does NOT break the thread.
--
- Charles Taylor tomalek@mindspring.com
- Chemistry instructor / Mad scientist / Linux enthusiast!
On Tue, 2005-03-01 at 21:18 +0100, Duncan Lithgow wrote:
On Tue, 2005-03-01 at 14:33 -0500, Charles E Taylor IV wrote:
On Tue, 1 Mar 2005 11:35:20 -0600 David Hoffman dhoffman2004@gmail.com wrote:
The archives are sorted by subject line. Here's a quick example. The two links below go to two DIFFERENT threads on the same archive site. The only reason they were listed as different threads is because "SOLVED" was added to the subject line. These links only lead to a test message, but there are many other instances that I have found on the same archive site that do the same thing. (And the same is true for the redhat archive site).
http://marc.theaimsgroup.com/?t=110930289600001&r=1&w=2 http://marc.theaimsgroup.com/?t=110931389000001&r=1&w=2
... but the official archives sorts this thread correctly. Isn't the issue really that the marc archive has broken threading?
For example, see
https://www.redhat.com/archives/fedora-list/2005-February/thread.html
The "Test, please ignore" messages are sorted this way:
# Test, Please ignore., Gustavo Seabra * Re: Test, Please ignore. [Solved], Gustavo Seabra o Re: Test, Please ignore. [Solved], jim lawrence
(in other words, adding "solved" does NOT break the thread.
This is because the tool handling the threading is using the References: headers in the email to do it, rather than the naive Subject:-based method used by the MARC-archives.
Paul.
Testing change in subject...
On Tue, 01 Mar 2005 20:23:28 +0000, Paul Howarth paul@city-fan.org wrote:
This is because the tool handling the threading is using the References: headers in the email to do it, rather than the naive Subject:-based method used by the MARC-archives.
That's probably what gmail is basing theirs on as well.
Looking at this thread and then the "changed" one... shows up as two different threads in gmail.
On Tue, 1 Mar 2005 15:04:40 -0600, David Hoffman dhoffman2004@gmail.com wrote:
On Tue, 01 Mar 2005 20:23:28 +0000, Paul Howarth paul@city-fan.org wrote:
This is because the tool handling the threading is using the References: headers in the email to do it, rather than the naive Subject:-based method used by the MARC-archives.
That's probably what gmail is basing theirs on as well.
Looking at this thread and then the "changed" one... shows up as two different threads in gmail.
You are right, this is a known issue in GMail: http://gmail.google.com/support/bin/answer.py?answer=8259&query=conversa...
On Tue, Mar 01, 2005 at 03:04:40PM -0600, David Hoffman wrote:
On Tue, 01 Mar 2005 20:23:28 +0000, Paul Howarth paul@city-fan.org wrote:
This is because the tool handling the threading is using the References: headers in the email to do it, rather than the naive Subject:-based method used by the MARC-archives.
That's probably what gmail is basing theirs on as well.
Looking at this thread and then the "changed" one... shows up as two different threads in gmail.
Then gmail is broken, as I have suspected. I wonder what else is broken about it? No, don't answer, I won't use gmail unless they fix threading.
I use mutt, and it handles the threading correctly. I did not see a new thread when the subject changed. But then the authors of mutt go out of their way to be compliant with the relevant RFCs.
On Wed, 2 Mar 2005 06:37:25 -0700, Charles Curley charlescurley@charlescurley.com wrote:
On Tue, Mar 01, 2005 at 03:04:40PM -0600, David Hoffman wrote:
On Tue, 01 Mar 2005 20:23:28 +0000, Paul Howarth paul@city-fan.org wrote:
This is because the tool handling the threading is using the References: headers in the email to do it, rather than the naive Subject:-based method used by the MARC-archives.
That's probably what gmail is basing theirs on as well.
Looking at this thread and then the "changed" one... shows up as two different threads in gmail.
Then gmail is broken, as I have suspected. I wonder what else is broken about it? No, don't answer, I won't use gmail unless they fix threading.
Again, this is a known issue in GMail. Look at: http://gmail.google.com/support/bin/answer.py?answer=8259&query=conversa...
They say they are 'working hard' to solve it, but they have been saying that for a while now, and I don't see any changes yet.
On Tue, 1 Mar 2005 07:38:27 -0600, David Hoffman dhoffman2004@gmail.com wrote:
On Tue, 1 Mar 2005 01:12:35 -0600, Gustavo Seabra gustavo.seabra@gmail.com wrote:
Another thing that may be interesting is to suggest the person who made the original post to, when a solution to his problem is found, finish the discussion with a last post adding something like [SOLVED] to the subject line, and indicating /what/ exactly solved the problem. That should help the readers to know the problem was finally solved without even having to read the messages; helps the monthly statistics; helps *a lot* when searching the archives later.
Unfortunately, changing the subject lines breaks threading. It makes it look like an entirely new thread. The archives, news readers, and some mail programs (gmail) can sort messages into conversations based on the subject line. If you change the subject line, then the "Solved" portion of the message shows up as another thread.
I have been using Thunderbird ever since I installed FC3 here, and never had this problem. Just changing the *subject* line always preserved the thread. That is actually the reason people complain about "stealing" the thread: if you just reply to an existing message and then change the subject, most mail clients (TB included) will somehow consider it still part of the previous thread, and keep it as so. Although his can potentially cause confusion, this is a good feature, if used right.
*However*, I have to admit. I recently moved to GMail, and noticed that GMail doesn't seem to be intelligent enough in this case: If you change the subject line, it creates a new "conversation". Anyways, this is a GMail *bug*, not a feature. I still like to see the [SOLVED] note inthe subject. If GMail creates another conversation from it, this is something to take to GMail developers, because it's plain *wrong*.
BTW, is there a "bugzilla" for GMail?
What might be better is to suggest NOT changing subject lines and to know that if you happen to be looking at the archives, the end of the thread may have a solution for you.
I think we could keep to only simple chages in the subject /line/, as long as the message keeps the same /subject/ (general). Just don't /steal/ the threads.
On Tue, 1 Mar 2005 10:51:11 -0600, Gustavo Seabra gustavo.seabra@gmail.com wrote:
*However*, I have to admit. I recently moved to GMail, and noticed that GMail doesn't seem to be intelligent enough in this case: If you change the subject line, it creates a new "conversation". Anyways, this is a GMail *bug*, not a feature. I still like to see the [SOLVED] note inthe subject. If GMail creates another conversation from it, this is something to take to GMail developers, because it's plain *wrong*.
BTW, is there a "bugzilla" for GMail?
Sort of: https://services.google.com/inquiry/gmail_bugs
I'm not sure this would be considered a bug. Gmail calls this a "conversation" view as you said, not a threaded view. If you define a conversation as a group of messages with the same subject, then this is the right behavior. That said, I do find this annoying. Maybe we could lobby for a "strict threading" option that does use the reference headers instead of just the subject. If enough people suggest it, maybe it will get done. Other than this annoyance, I find Gmail's interface to be well suited to mailing lists.
Jonathan
On Wed, 2 Mar 2005 12:15:00 -0600, Jonathan Berry berryja@gmail.com wrote:
On Tue, 1 Mar 2005 10:51:11 -0600, Gustavo Seabra gustavo.seabra@gmail.com wrote:
BTW, is there a "bugzilla" for GMail?
Been there. I think I already filed this same thing at least twice, but I have no idea if anyone even read it :-(
I'm not sure this would be considered a bug. Gmail calls this a "conversation" view as you said, not a threaded view. If you define a conversation as a group of messages with the same subject, then this is the right behavior. That said, I do find this annoying. Maybe we could lobby for a "strict threading" option that does use the reference headers instead of just the subject. If enough people suggest it, maybe it will get done. Other than this annoyance, I find Gmail's interface to be well suited to mailing lists.
Jonathan
I agree that, with enough suggestions, they *may* give this problem some extra thought. I wonder if there would be a way to call other users to file a similar report...
Below is a summary of the points raised so far since draft 2. I think it would be a gesture of cooperative effort if someone other than me wrote draft 3. Any takers?
If we cannot - as a community - create this document then we have no place asking people to follow this communities guidelines. I suggest that we repost draft three as a new thread so people who have started ignoring this thread can see we are still working on it.
solidarity, Duncan --
From Rahul Sundaram:
info command name locate <stuff you want to know about> rpm -qd <packagename>
fedora.redhat.com/docs redhat.com/docs fedoratracker.org fedoraproject.org/extras --
From Charles Curley:
You may also find useful http://www.charlescurley.com/netiquette.html.
4.5. Trim irrelevant material. Why? It makes it easier to read your reply and helps the reader to stay on subject.
On medium and high traffic lists (such as this one), many people decide whether to read a message solely on the subject line. This is not obvious to people who are new to mailing lists. --
From Matt: (seconded Gustavo Seabra)
b) When you send in a new topic, do not start by replying to an existing message, but rather, start a new message to "fedora-list@redhat.com". This keeps messages organized by thread, for people who like to use threads (on high-volume mailing lists like this one, threads can be a great convenience). --
From beartooth:
... who *start* on gmane, and spare themselves the detour through email. Shouldn't the advice address them? --
From Gustavo Seabra:
I think a monthly mail reminder would be good. Also, it could be kept in a web page, and a link to this page added in the bottom of the messages, together with the "Fedora-list" things. -- Adding or not adding [solved] - seems to be in dispute with no clear preference.
On Fri, 25 Feb 2005 20:47:30 -0700, James McKenzie wrote:
Here is the first edition of the List Rules.
The first thing is that I, like you, are a regular member of the list but have read through many messages about 'netequitte' within this list.
Just a couple of hints:
[...] Many thanks, James, for a good start; strength to your arm.
Possible title might be "Advice: some ways to get your post read" -- long, but it reads fast.
I've read every post in the whole thread as of right now, and don't see the one thing I looked especially for : no one mentions gmane. I submit that any such collocation of helpfulness, whatever you/we call it, ought to.
The reason is that gmane makes it especially feasible, for those of us who don't know squat about most of the discussion here, to pick out the topics that we do have some hope of using -- without exposing the list to any more extraneity than would appear anyway.
The reader I know best, for example, threw up both hands in despair, years ago now, at the prospect of trying to pick out the usable parts of things like the phoebe list or the shrike list -- and turned off the subscriptions. I'd never have dared try Fedora in those days.
As it is, however, I have three machines running FC1, one with FC2, and one with YDL4 -- all working, thanks in large part to the fact that gmane carries this list and others like it.
By now, there must be some -- certainly including anyone I might advise -- who *start* on gmane, and spare themselves the detour through email. Shouldn't the advice address them?
On Tue, 01 Mar 2005 13:04:55 -0500, beartooth beartooth@adelphia.net wrote:
On Fri, 25 Feb 2005 20:47:30 -0700, James McKenzie wrote:
Here is the first edition of the List Rules.
The first thing is that I, like you, are a regular member of the list but have read through many messages about 'netequitte' within this list.
Just a couple of hints:
[...] Many thanks, James, for a good start; strength to your arm.
Possible title might be "Advice: some ways to get your post read" -- long, but it reads fast.
I've read every post in the whole thread as of right now, and don't see the one thing I looked especially for : no one mentions gmane. I submit that any such collocation of helpfulness, whatever you/we call it, ought to.
The reason is that gmane makes it especially feasible, for those of us who don't know squat about most of the discussion here, to pick out the topics that we do have some hope of using -- without exposing the list to any more extraneity than would appear anyway.
The reader I know best, for example, threw up both hands in despair, years ago now, at the prospect of trying to pick out the usable parts of things like the phoebe list or the shrike list -- and turned off the subscriptions. I'd never have dared try Fedora in those days.
As it is, however, I have three machines running FC1, one with FC2, and one with YDL4 -- all working, thanks in large part to the fact that gmane carries this list and others like it.
By now, there must be some -- certainly including anyone I might advise -- who *start* on gmane, and spare themselves the detour through email. Shouldn't the advice address them?
--
There was a discussion about moving from a listserver format to a news format last month, and there were a bunch of people who were against that because they simply don't like going to a news reader to look at these messages.
That being said, gmane does give people the flexibility to decide if they want to use it or not.
I don't think the issue is where or how you are going to read the posts. The matter right now is trying to encourage people to look at archives before posting questions, and posting their questions in a matter that makes it easier to search for them later.
The most recent subject we have been discussing is the concept of changing a subject line to indicate a resolution for a problem. While that might work in a forum type environment, it still causes there to be multiple threads resulting from the same issue. Even gmane breaks threads like this sometimes.
On Tue, 01 Mar 2005 12:16:44 -0600, David Hoffman wrote:
There was a discussion about moving from a listserver format to a news format last month, and there were a bunch of people who were against that because they simply don't like going to a news reader to look at these messages.
That being said, gmane does give people the flexibility to decide if they want to use it or not.
If any particular posters prefer email, more power to them; I never meant to say otherwise. But there is a difference in that you may not get the usual welcome message -- or not know to save it where you can find it.
[....]
The most recent subject we have been discussing is the concept of changing a subject line to indicate a resolution for a problem. While that might work in a forum type environment, it still causes there to be multiple threads resulting from the same issue. Even gmane breaks threads like this sometimes.
OK, that's news to me. I've certainly seen threads it didn't break, where the post beginning with [SOLVED] really stands out; I'm sorry to hear that the other kind happens. I wonder what determines which ....
On Tue, 01 Mar 2005 16:45:11 -0500, beartooth beartooth@adelphia.net wrote:
On Tue, 01 Mar 2005 12:16:44 -0600, David Hoffman wrote:
There was a discussion about moving from a listserver format to a news format last month, and there were a bunch of people who were against that because they simply don't like going to a news reader to look at these messages.
That being said, gmane does give people the flexibility to decide if they want to use it or not.
If any particular posters prefer email, more power to them; I never meant to say otherwise. But there is a difference in that you may not get the usual welcome message -- or not know to save it where you can find it.
[....]
The most recent subject we have been discussing is the concept of changing a subject line to indicate a resolution for a problem. While that might work in a forum type environment, it still causes there to be multiple threads resulting from the same issue. Even gmane breaks threads like this sometimes.
OK, that's news to me. I've certainly seen threads it didn't break, where the post beginning with [SOLVED] really stands out; I'm sorry to hear that the other kind happens. I wonder what determines which ....
Earlier, someone kindly pointed me to several examples of threads on GMANE that were intact, even with changed subject lines. I haven't used GMANE regularly since I started using Gmail, about two months now, but I do recall there being an issue at the time with some threads becoming broken. That appears to be resolved now.
Gmail and MARC still seem to break threads though.
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Beartooth -
Carroll Grigsby -
Charles Curley -
Charles E. "Rick" Taylor, IV -
Christofer C. Bell -
Craig White -
David Curry -
David Hoffman -
Duncan Lithgow -
Genes MailLists -
Gustavo Seabra -
Hacksaw -
Hodgins Family -
Ian P. Thomas -
James McKenzie -
jdow -
Jeff Kinz -
Jim Cornette -
Jonathan Berry -
Leonard Isham -
Matt Morgan -
Matthew Miller -
Michael A. Peters -
Michael Scottaline -
Paul Howarth -
Rahul Sundaram -
Stuart Sears -
thomas cameron