9:47 p.m.
All:
Here is the first edition of the List Rules.
The first thing is that I, like you, are a regular member of the list
but have read through many messages about 'netequitte' within this list.
Just a couple of hints:
1. Set your mailer to send only plain text messages to the list. HTML
mail does not work well, is blocked by some of our list members, and
sadly wastes bandwidth. Also, some members, like myself, disabled
display of HTML mail because they can be used for spam detectors and can
send malware code.
2. Place your replies at the bottom of messages. This is an old method
used for many years. Preface any text to be replied to with a
character, most folks use a greater than sign '>' but any special
printable character will suffice.
3. Search the list archives before posting a question. Many topics
have been discussed extensively in prior messages. Also, please read
through the Release Notes for Fedora Core. There are major changes with
this release, including making Secure Linux (SELinux) a default.
4. Placing two dashes and a space between message content and your
signature, will in most cases, result in automatic cutoff of your
signature when your messages are replied to. Please note: Some mailers
will not display any content to include this line and any lines below it.
5. To unsubscibe from the list you can visit the Fedora Mail List web
page at http://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/fedora-list
6. Please contact me directly with suggestions and comments.
--
James McKenzie
With assistance, Now running 2.6.11rc4, Software Suspend 2
and ibm-acpi .1 on an IBM Thinkpad A22p
Need a home for my .rpm
10:09 p.m.
On Fri, 25 Feb 2005 20:47:30 -0700, James McKenzie
<jjmckenzie51(a)earthlink.net> wrote:
All:
Here is the first edition of the List Rules.
The first thing is that I, like you, are a regular member of the list
but have read through many messages about 'netequitte' within this list.
Just a couple of hints:
1. Set your mailer to send only plain text messages to the list. HTML
mail does not work well, is blocked by some of our list members, and
sadly wastes bandwidth. Also, some members, like myself, disabled
display of HTML mail because they can be used for spam detectors and can
send malware code.
2. Place your replies at the bottom of messages. This is an old method
used for many years. Preface any text to be replied to with a
character, most folks use a greater than sign '>' but any special
printable character will suffice.
3. Search the list archives before posting a question. Many topics
have been discussed extensively in prior messages. Also, please read
through the Release Notes for Fedora Core. There are major changes with
this release, including making Secure Linux (SELinux) a default.
4. Placing two dashes and a space between message content and your
signature, will in most cases, result in automatic cutoff of your
signature when your messages are replied to. Please note: Some mailers
will not display any content to include this line and any lines below it.
5. To unsubscibe from the list you can visit the Fedora Mail List web
page at http://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/fedora-list
6. Please contact me directly with suggestions and comments.
Just a couple of comments..
First, i found it great that you didn't just "state" the rules, but
you also gave an explanation to them. This way they seem more logical
instead of just a buch of stupid detail for picki people.
Second, I i'd just suggest that, when you mention the use of the list
archives, to include one link to a good useful archive, like MARC one
at
http://marc.theaimsgroup.com/?l=fedora-list&r=1&w=2
Also, it may be interesting to post a link to some page with more
details like archive search hints and a list of FAQs/Wikis.
Cheers,
--
------------------------------------------------------------------
Gustavo Seabra Graduate Student
Chemistry Dept. Kansas State University
Registered Linux user number 381680
------------------------------------------------------------------
If at first you don't succeed...
...skydiving is not for you.
10:36 p.m.
New subject: List Rules (Follow Up to Comments)
Gustavo Seabra wrote:
Just a couple of comments..
First, i found it great that you didn't just "state" the rules, but
you also gave an explanation to them. This way they seem more logical
instead of just a buch of stupid detail for picki people.
Second, I i'd just suggest that, when you mention the use of the list
archives, to include one link to a good useful archive, like MARC one
at
http://marc.theaimsgroup.com/?l=fedora-list&r=1&w=2
There are several locations for the list archives. Please use which
ever one that you prefer.
Also, it may be interesting to post a link to some page with more
details like archive search hints and a list of FAQs/Wikis.
There are several Wiki's. Some are dedicated to specific hardware or
software packages. I've used Google to find them.
--
James McKenzie
With assistance, Now running 2.6.11rc4, Software Suspend 2
and ibm-acpi .1
Need a home for my .rpm
12:33 a.m.
New subject: List Rules (Follow Up to Comments)
On Fri, 25 Feb 2005 21:36:32 -0700, James McKenzie
<jjmckenzie51(a)earthlink.net> wrote:
Gustavo Seabra wrote:
>
>
> Just a couple of comments..
>
> First, i found it great that you didn't just "state" the rules, but
> you also gave an explanation to them. This way they seem more logical
> instead of just a buch of stupid detail for picki people.
>
> Second, I i'd just suggest that, when you mention the use of the list
> archives, to include one link to a good useful archive, like MARC one
> at
> http://marc.theaimsgroup.com/?l=fedora-list&r=1&w=2
There are several locations for the list archives. Please use which
ever one that you prefer.
>
> Also, it may be interesting to post a link to some page with more
> details like archive search hints and a list of FAQs/Wikis.
>
There are several Wiki's. Some are dedicated to specific hardware or
software packages. I've used Google to find them.
James, it seems like you misunderstood me. I didn't mean to "vote" on
one particular archive here. The idea I was trying to pass was just to
have, in the list rules e-mail, some links to support the suggestions
given.
Countless times we've seen people answer to questions with a "look at
the archives", unknowingly that lots of newbies even know about them.
in te beggining, I myself didn't. So, whenever we suggest to someone
to look at the archives, I don't think that would be too much trouble
to include a link to them there.
The particular one I pointed is just a matter of personal preference,
I found it to work great *for me*. But if one is to be in the "offical
list rules", maybe the redhat one should be used. My point is:
Together with the rules, supply the reader with a link to /some/
chosen archive or, even better, to a list of archives / FAQs / Wikis.
He can go from there.
The truth is that lots of information is available, but it is actually
spread over lots of different webpages. Wouldn't it be nice to have
one web-page indexing all the others? And one simple (monthly?)
reminder of this page could potentially reduce a lot the list traffic.
--
------------------------------------------------------------------
Gustavo Seabra Graduate Student
Chemistry Dept. Kansas State University
Registered Linux user number 381680
------------------------------------------------------------------
If at first you don't succeed...
...skydiving is not for you.
1:19 a.m.
New subject: List Rules (Follow Up to Comments)
On 02/25/2005 10:33:02 PM, Gustavo Seabra wrote:
So, whenever we suggest to someone
to look at the archives, I don't think that would be too much trouble
to include a link to them there.
I think a search box looking at the official archive would be better -
since it won't disapear.
https://www.redhat.com/archives/fedora-list/
--
Michael A. Peters
http://mpeters.us/
3 a.m.
Good to see some suggested list etiquette - good work James.
2. Place your replies at the bottom of messages. This is an old
method
used for many years. ...
Could this be changed to "place
your replies after the text you are
replying to. This gives the message a natural, conversational structure
and is a long established convention on email lists.
... Preface any text to be replied to with a
character, most folks use a greater than sign '>' but any special
printable character will suffice.
I don't understand this bit about the '>' sign. If we use that for
something it shows up as 'replied to' text. It could also benefit from
being a seperate point perhaps.
Duncan
--
Linux user #372812: more stable and cheaper than windows
GnuPG Public Key ID: 0x2BB9667C21A8C63A: protecting your security
5:07 a.m.
On Saturday 26 February 2005 09:00, Duncan Lithgow wrote:
Good to see some suggested list etiquette - good work James.
I
have to agree :-)
<snip>
>... Preface any text to be replied to with a
> character, most folks use a greater than sign '>' but any special
> printable character will suffice.
I don't understand this bit about the '>' sign. If we use that for
something it shows up as 'replied to' text. It could also benefit from
being a seperate point perhaps.
Nope, that was exactly the point - a message you
reply to should have the
original text (or better an edited version of it, to leave only the relevant
parts) clearly marked by a character at the beginning of each line. The
majority of mail clients do this automatically (here it is being done by
kmail).
The reasoning behind this is to make it clear what *you* are saying and what
the previous poster wrote. It also makes it far easier to find replies to any
questions you post...
--
Stuart Sears RHCE, RHCX, RTFM, ASAP
If a subordinate asks you a pertinent question, look at him as if he had
lost his senses. When he looks down, paraphrase the question back at him.
8:38 a.m.
On Saturday 26 February 2005 12:07, Stuart Sears wrote:
> >... Preface any text to be replied to with a
> > character, most folks use a greater than sign '>' but any special
> > printable character will suffice.
>
> I don't understand this bit about the '>' sign. If we use that for
> something it shows up as 'replied to' text. It could also benefit
> from being a seperate point perhaps.
Nope, that was exactly the point - a message you reply to
In that case it should read "Preface any text you are replying to with
a ..."
I think that has the correct meaning now.
Duncan
--
Linux user #372812: more stable and cheaper than windows
GnuPG Public Key ID: 0x2BB9667C21A8C63A: protecting your security
1:31 p.m.
Duncan Lithgow wrote:
On Saturday 26 February 2005 12:07, Stuart Sears wrote:
In that case it should read "Preface any text you are replying to with
a ..."
I think that has the correct meaning now.
Thanks for the verbage correction.
-
James McKenzie
With assistance, Now running 2.6.11rc3, Software Suspend 2
and ibm-acpi .1
Need a home for my .rpm
6:01 a.m.
From: "Rahul Sundaram" <rahulsundaram(a)gmail.com>
On Fri, 25 Feb 2005 20:47:30 -0700, James McKenzie
<jjmckenzie51(a)earthlink.net> wrote:
> All:
>
> Here is the first edition of the List Rules.
please submit to the fedora docs list after collecting feedback from this
list
Rule number one is that there shall be no discussion of list rules, ever,
regardless of whatever level of infraction may appear in any message to
the list. The rules shall be discussed only between dweebs anal enough to
worry about the whole thing in the first place.
Haven't you little boys anything better to do with your time than play
list cop?
Sheesh
{+_+}
7:39 a.m.
2. Place your replies at the bottom of messages.
This is actually a misinterpretation of a much better idea: When replying to a
message, quote the relevant passage you are replying to as concisely as
possible, preceeding each line with a non alphanumeric, preferably '>', then
add your reply in plain text.
Repeat as necessary.
3. Search the list archives before posting a question.
This leads me to another important suggestion. To aid in the searching, please
write subject lines that concisely tag the message. For instance, if you are
having a problem getting past the partitioning phase of an install of FC3,
don't set the subject to "Install Fails", set it to "Can't get past
partitioning on FC3".
Haven't you little boys anything better to do with your time than
play
list cop?
Two other suggestions come to mind here. First is that you probably shouldn't
call it "List Rules". It might be better to call it "Suggestions to ensure
the
widest readership of your question or problem." This gets the goal across
nicely.
The second is that ad hominem attacks probably won't result in positive
action. In fact, in the old days, a million years ago in Internet time, we
called those sorts of posts "Trolls".
--
The key is realizing the whole world is stupid and being happy anyway
http://www.hacksaw.org -- http://www.privatecircus.com -- KB1FVD
7:45 a.m.
Hi
Two other suggestions come to mind here. First is that you probably
shouldn't
call it "List Rules". It might be better to call it "Suggestions to ensure
the
widest readership of your question or problem." This gets the goal across
nicely.
Isnt list guidelines a more concise expression of that?
--
Regards,
Rahul Sundaram
8:13 a.m.
>"Suggestions to ensure the
> widest readership of your question or problem." This gets the goal across
> nicely.
Isnt list guidelines a more concise expression of that?
No. The why of it isn't there.
Sadly, people misunderstand why some folks harp on netiquette. Sure,
netiquette is about irritation prevention, but if you flip that coin, you see
that it helps to remove barriers to communication.
The "rules" of the net are, in essence, a list of things that cause cognitive
dissonance to the reader. In a place like alt.discordia, maybe that's good.
But if you want help with your problem, or just want to be heard, it's
essential to follow the standard.
I will admit that "Suggestions to ensure the widest readership of your
question or problem." is an eyeful, and if you can suggest a more concise way
to put it that conveys the entire meaning explicitly, I'd be happy to put my
shoulder behind it.
--
Melior amare chemia
http://www.hacksaw.org -- http://www.privatecircus.com -- KB1FVD
8:28 a.m.
Hi
I will admit that "Suggestions to ensure the widest readership
of your
question or problem." is an eyeful, and if you can suggest a more concise way
to put it that conveys the entire meaning explicitly, I'd be happy to put my
shoulder behind it.
trying to summarise the content to that extend within the title makes
it too long
--
Regards,
Rahul Sundaram
8:47 a.m.
trying to summarise the content to that extend within the title makes
it too long
Yes, but calling it "List Guidelines" makes ignoring it too tempting. Remember
that people are taught from a very early age that people will impose
strictures on them that appear to be arbitrary and burdensome. Some of the
time this is because the rules are, in fact, arbitrary and burdensome. They
are designed to keep you out. And then sometimes the rules are for a good
reason, and enforce the widest possible use of the thing they surround.
Witness the GPL.
My suggested title is an attempt to address the knee-jerk reaction from those
who have had too many stupid rules imposed on them. Instead being a stricture,
they become an affordance, to use the design term.
And what's a few extra words between colleagues, especially when it might help
make the burden lighter for some?
How about "Get Your Question or Problem Read on fedora-list"?
--
The universe is not only stranger than we (can) imagine,
it's stranger than we CARE to imagine!
http://www.hacksaw.org -- http://www.privatecircus.com -- KB1FVD
11:14 a.m.
On Sat, 2005-02-26 at 09:47 -0500, Hacksaw wrote:
Yes, but calling it "List Guidelines" makes ignoring it too
tempting. Remember
that people are taught from a very early age that people will impose
strictures on them that appear to be arbitrary and burdensome. Some of the
time this is because the rules are, in fact, arbitrary and burdensome. They
are designed to keep you out. And then sometimes the rules are for a good
reason, and enforce the widest possible use of the thing they surround.
Witness the GPL.
My suggested title is an attempt to address the knee-jerk reaction from those
who have had too many stupid rules imposed on them. Instead being a stricture,
they become an affordance, to use the design term.
And what's a few extra words between colleagues, especially when it might help
make the burden lighter for some?
How about "Get Your Question or Problem Read on fedora-list"?
This is good. I suggest,
"Effectively Eliciting a Useful Response To Your Question(s)"
Sounds like something you'd hear from someone in HR ;) but, I think it
conveys the idea behind the guidelines as succinctly as possible. I
wanted to remove 'Problem' from the mix because it attaches a negative
connotation to what you're posting about. Some of the people posting to
this list apologize for asking a question, or state how they know they
are dumb for not knowing some knowledge about some topic.
I feel the above description informs the person posting the question
that they are more likely to receive information beneficial to them if
they follow these steps. The reasons are similar to why a well written
bug report has a better chance of being fixed then a poorly written one.
Guidelines that enhance clarity, if followed, reduce the amount of
effort needed to assess needs. Anything to reduce the amount of effort
necessary to address a question is beneficial to everyone, as we are all
volunteers on this list.
Of course, we have many on the list in which English is a second
language, so your wording might be easier to process.
Ian
1:27 p.m.
New subject: Rules Title {Was List Rules}
Ian P. Thomas wrote:
On Sat, 2005-02-26 at 09:47 -0500, Hacksaw wrote:
>Yes, but calling it "List Guidelines" makes ignoring it too tempting.
Remember
>that people are taught from a very early age that people will impose
>strictures on them that appear to be arbitrary and burdensome. Some of the
>time this is because the rules are, in fact, arbitrary and burdensome. They
>are designed to keep you out. And then sometimes the rules are for a good
>reason, and enforce the widest possible use of the thing they surround.
>Witness the GPL.
>
>My suggested title is an attempt to address the knee-jerk reaction from those
>who have had too many stupid rules imposed on them. Instead being a stricture,
>they become an affordance, to use the design term.
>
>And what's a few extra words between colleagues, especially when it might help
>make the burden lighter for some?
>
>How about "Get Your Question or Problem Read on fedora-list"?
This is good. I suggest,
"Effectively Eliciting a Useful Response To Your Question(s)"
How about "List Guidelines or the How to Get Help for Your Fedora
Problem"?
--
James McKenzie
With assistance, Now running 2.6.11rc4, Software Suspend 2
and ibm-acpi .1
Need a home for my .rpm
4:37 p.m.
New subject: Rules Title {Was List Rules}
On Sat, 2005-02-26 at 12:27 -0700, James McKenzie wrote:
Ian P. Thomas wrote:
> On Sat, 2005-02-26 at 09:47 -0500, Hacksaw wrote:
>>How about "Get Your Question or Problem Read on fedora-list"?
>
>
> This is good. I suggest,
>
> "Effectively Eliciting a Useful Response To Your Question(s)"
>
>
How about "List Guidelines or the How to Get Help for Your Fedora Problem"?
That sounds good. Even more succinct is "How to Get Help on fedora-
list". Perhaps someone at Red Hat could put a link on this page,
http://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/fedora-list
and add it to the 'Using fedora-list' section.
Ian
5:01 p.m.
New subject: Rules Title {Was List Rules}
Ian P. Thomas wrote:
On Sat, 2005-02-26 at 12:27 -0700, James McKenzie wrote:
>Ian P. Thomas wrote:
>
>>On Sat, 2005-02-26 at 09:47 -0500, Hacksaw wrote:
>>
>>>How about "Get Your Question or Problem Read on fedora-list"?
>>
>>
>>This is good. I suggest,
>>
>>"Effectively Eliciting a Useful Response To Your Question(s)"
>>
>>
>
>How about "List Guidelines or the How to Get Help for Your Fedora Problem"?
That sounds good. Even more succinct is "How to Get Help on fedora-
list". Perhaps someone at Red Hat could put a link on this page,
http://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/fedora-list
and add it to the 'Using fedora-list' section.
That's the goal of this effort folks. Not for me to police the list,
but for those who are new to get guidance on how this list functions as
a community.
--
James McKenzie
With assistance, Now running 2.6.11rc3, Software Suspend 2
and ibm-acpi .1
Need a home for my .rpm
8:46 a.m.
On Sat, 26 Feb 2005 09:13:08 -0500, Hacksaw <hacksaw(a)hacksaw.org> wrote:
>>"Suggestions to ensure the
>> widest readership of your question or problem." This gets the goal across
>> nicely.
>
>Isnt list guidelines a more concise expression of that?
No. The why of it isn't there.
Sadly, people misunderstand why some folks harp on netiquette. Sure,
netiquette is about irritation prevention, but if you flip that coin, you see
that it helps to remove barriers to communication.
The "rules" of the net are, in essence, a list of things that cause cognitive
dissonance to the reader. In a place like alt.discordia, maybe that's good.
But if you want help with your problem, or just want to be heard, it's
essential to follow the standard.
I will admit that "Suggestions to ensure the widest readership of your
question or problem." is an eyeful, and if you can suggest a more concise way
to put it that conveys the entire meaning explicitly, I'd be happy to put my
shoulder behind it.
How about "If you really want people to read your posts"
--
Leonard Isham, CISSP
Ostendo non ostento.
3:42 p.m.
From: "Leonard Isham" <leonard.isham(a)gmail.com>
On Sat, 26 Feb 2005 09:13:08 -0500, Hacksaw
<hacksaw(a)hacksaw.org> wrote:
> >>"Suggestions to ensure the
> >> widest readership of your question or problem." This gets the goal
across
> >> nicely.
> >
> >Isnt list guidelines a more concise expression of that?
>
> No. The why of it isn't there.
>
> Sadly, people misunderstand why some folks harp on netiquette. Sure,
> netiquette is about irritation prevention, but if you flip that coin,
you see
> that it helps to remove barriers to communication.
>
> The "rules" of the net are, in essence, a list of things that cause
cognitive
> dissonance to the reader. In a place like alt.discordia, maybe
that's
good.
> But if you want help with your problem, or just want to be
heard, it's
> essential to follow the standard.
>
> I will admit that "Suggestions to ensure the widest readership of your
> question or problem." is an eyeful, and if you can suggest a more
concise
way
> to put it that conveys the entire meaning explicitly, I'd be
happy to
put my
> shoulder behind it.
How about "If you really want people to read your posts"
--
Leonard Isham, CISSP
Ostendo non ostento.
The little boys did not get the hint. I finally exit Fedora lists
entirely. I am bloody god damn sick of the crap.
{+_+} Good by and good riddance.
4:36 p.m.
jdow wrote:
> ... that it helps to remove barriers to communication.
I finally exit Fedora lists entirely.
. {+_+} Good by and good riddance.
Hopefully you will not leave the lists if any of the subject matters are
of interest to you or you can help someone else out with a problem.
Claiming that posting a certain way is more valuable than the other way
is a venture into the "land of no results". The list was setup for
Fedora users to learn from others with their previous obstacles that
they personally had to overcome or read up on how a program should be
setup according to design.
On the other hand, the list was not setup to have a dedicated format for
only posting in a certain format. I know the subject never ceases or
results in anything positive. Reading the archives would lead one to
that conclusion also.
Repeating futile attempts to police the list should be better spent on
dedication to helping users get the best experience from FC that is
possible.
I hate to see someone repelled by a particular neverending thread. I can
understand why the subject is repelling listers from contributing, since
it floods their mailboxes and distracts from concentrating on asking for
help or trying to give help related to Fedora usage or overcoming
problems with current public releases.
Now back to our program.
Jim
--
the printer thinks its a router.
4:59 p.m.
Jim Cornette wrote:
I hate to see someone repelled by a particular neverending thread. I can
understand why the subject is repelling listers from contributing, since
it floods their mailboxes and distracts from concentrating on asking for
help or trying to give help related to Fedora usage or overcoming
problems with current public releases.
Now back to our program.
Jim:
You are so right, but a ton of bandwidth has been wasted trying to
enforce 'rules' that are not stated. All I want is to get a good set of
community driven guidelines that state how we should interrelate in the
list. I was 'pounded' by folks that insisted that I 'bottom post' when I
belong to three professional lists that insist on the opposite. When I
was confronted with this, I asked where this was "in writing". The
replies I got were, this is custom but is not a written rule. So, I
decided, as an ex-FidoNet list moderator, to take on the task of putting
our community guidelines in writing and present them to our Red Hat
benefactors so that folks who are new to the list integrate quickly.
Also, I have lived in several foreign countries where failure to follow
the customs of that country could result at a minimum in a very public
tongue lashing to spending time in prison (it is against the law to tip
a taxi driver in Japan.)
In any case, the ultimate goal is to not have to publish the guidelines
but to have Red Hat do this. And guidelines are changeable based upon
the consensus of the group.
--
James McKenzie
With assistance, Now running 2.6.11rc3, Software Suspend 2
and ibm-acpi .1
Need a home for my .rpm
6:38 p.m.
New subject: List Rules ... Never mind
James McKenzie wrote:
Jim Cornette wrote:
>
> I hate to see someone repelled by a particular neverending thread. I
> can understand why the subject is repelling listers from contributing,
> since it floods their mailboxes and distracts from concentrating on
> asking for help or trying to give help related to Fedora usage or
> overcoming problems with current public releases.
>
> Now back to our program.
Jim:
You are so right, but a ton of bandwidth has been wasted trying to
enforce 'rules' that are not stated. All I want is to get a good set of
community driven guidelines that state how we should interrelate in the
list.
After being exposed to inline replies and also with replies to the
bottom of the messages on this list, I do think that it is easier to
follow threads and know what was being discussed.
My objection is mainly due to the discussion continuing for as far back
as I can remember. There is never going to be conformance to any type of
rigid policy. Rehashing the subject over and over will just lead to
people feeling that enough is enough. Jdow, who was on the fedora lists
for as far back as I can remember is a good example. I am bothered by
the rehashing of the subject repeatadly also and usually only delete the
threads and continue on scanning for topics where I might be able to
trigger one in the right direction, learn from their insight or just be
entertained by a post that is enlightening that breaks up the normal dry
postings on the list. Most are informative, but some are rather dry or
repetative in nature.
I was 'pounded' by folks that insisted that I 'bottom post' when I
belong to three professional lists that insist on the opposite. When
I
was confronted with this, I asked where this was "in writing". The
replies I got were, this is custom but is not a written rule. So, I
decided, as an ex-FidoNet list moderator, to take on the task of putting
our community guidelines in writing and present them to our Red Hat
benefactors so that folks who are new to the list integrate quickly.
A briefing message when one signs up to the list that is informative of
what the list objective is, which is pretty well covered in the list
name might be alright. I don't see this concept happening, since the
list manager probably has to worry more about technical issues, rather
than what format of posting is considered better than another type.
The best solution would probably be to add a link to a website that has
these proposed rules rearding html postings and bottom posting described
within it. Adding a link that already has such guidlines might be
acceptable also. The only thing is that I even don't read netiquite
proposals myself. I just post as I prefer to and the way that it seems
will best get the message across to the intended recepients.
Also, I have lived in several foreign countries where failure to
follow
the customs of that country could result at a minimum in a very public
tongue lashing to spending time in prison (it is against the law to tip
a taxi driver in Japan.)
There are bound to be al sorts of hard to believe laws worldwide. We
stil have very outdated laws on our books that are far behind being
applicable today. Anyway, hopefully top-posting does not become outlawed
with the same penalty that inside trading entails. We can hope we did
not elect representatives with this type of mindset within our borders.
In any case, the ultimate goal is to not have to publish the guidelines
but to have Red Hat do this. And guidelines are changeable based upon
the consensus of the group.
I really believe that redhat needs to keep involved in technical issues,
like spam, viruses or posts that are spoofs originating from other than
the person that actually uses the particular mailing address.
Good luck with your venture. I think that it is excellent that redhat
provides the avenue where we can converse in a public mailing list. I
don't think that I would request Red Hat to be bothered with list
posting preferences though.
I appreciate having the chance to learn from other Fedora users and help
where I can. I am still sort of a person who does not like to be put
into a mold for how I would post a message or do any other thing in my
everyday life. I just think we all need a break from never dying
threads. I have seen postings that I could not help with, since I don't
know much about the issues. They might be answered if less discussion
time was dedicated to how one should post. I do not see any value in
some sort of "this is what I want, so you better post that way" sort of
guidlines. I don't consider these ideals as rules, they are simply
guidlines, the world will not end because someone top posted or sent
through an html formatted message. Now if an rtf formatted message comes
through, this is one that I would consider improper and unreadable from
my operating system tools or programs.
Jim
--
the printer thinks its a router.
12:33 p.m.
First is that you probably shouldn't
call it "List Rules". It might be better to call it "Suggestions to ensure
the
widest readership of your question or problem." This gets the goal across
nicely.
Amen - when I saw the subject "List Rules," it actually got my back up a
bit. This is a community. It is certainly nice for people to be aware of
and try to follow the community standards of behavior. However, calling
them "rules" implies that there is a firm structure in place. Usually there
are punitive consequences for breaking "rules." Anyone who claims to be the
arbiter of, or the enforcer of "the rules" seems to me to be claiming
authority that (s)he simply doesn't have.
I would certainly strive to follow the community standards, and I have no
problems gently (preferably off list) pointing a community newcomer to a
list of community preferences. But someone who pops off about violating
"the rules" is likely to get an earful from me.
Thomas
2:38 p.m.
Good afternoon!
On Sat, 2005-02-26 at 12:33 -0600, Thomas Cameron wrote:
> First is that you probably shouldn't
> call it "List Rules". It might be better to call it "Suggestions to
ensure
> the
> widest readership of your question or problem." This gets the goal across
> nicely.
Amen - when I saw the subject "List Rules," it actually got my back up a
bit.
Isn't that a bit of an extreme reaction?
Before anyone reads this post further, please know that I disagree with
this party's approach.
This is a community. It is certainly nice for people to be aware
of
and try to follow the community standards of behavior. However, calling
them "rules" implies that there is a firm structure in place.
"Rules" implies no such thing! I recall this matter being an issue in
"Pirates of the Caribbean" regarding the "Rules of Parlay".
Here is one definition of rules: Established standards, guides, or
regulations set up by authority.
Check it out at http://www.hyperdictionary.com/dictionary/rules
Yes, this is a community. All communities have standards, guides or
regulations. They aren't "firm". They are fluid and are open to change.
Please don't get your back up because you have decided that "rules" have
a definition that is far narrower than what is accepted.
Usually there
are punitive consequences for breaking "rules."
No punitive consequences are implied by the definition, nor were any
proposed in the original posting! The only "punitive consequence" that
might occur would be that your question/problem/perspective may not be
appropriately addressed.
Anyone who claims to be the
arbiter of, or the enforcer of "the rules" seems to me to be claiming
authority that (s)he simply doesn't have.
Now, we move from a incomplete definition of "rules" through the
existence of non-existent "punitive measures" to the establishment of an
"enforcer". I guess that I should be terrified by now. I'm not.
Look, I didn't actually see anyone posing as an "enforcer" in the
original posting. However,"Seems to be" tells me that you haven't looked
"authority" up.
So, definition of authority: same reference as above
1. [n] official permission or approval; "authority for the program
was renewed several times"
2. [n] the power or right to give orders or make decisions; "he
has the authority to issue warrants"; "deputies are given
authorization to make arrests"
3. [n] freedom from doubt; belief in yourself and your abilities;
"his assurance in his superiority did not make him popular";
"after that failure he lost his confidence"; "she spoke with
authority"
4. [n] an authoritative written work; "this book is the final
authority on the life of Milton"
5. [n] an administrative unit of government; "the Central
Intelligence Agency"; "the Census Bureau"; "Office of
Management
and Budget"; "Tennessee Valley Authority"
6. [n] an expert whose views are taken as definitive; "he is an
authority on corporate law"
7. [n] (usually plural) persons who exercise (administrative)
control over others; "the authorities have issued a curfew"
Definition 1 doesn't apply since it doesn't refer to a person.
Definition 2 and 7 imply control by one group over others. Are these the
definitions that got your back up?
I would have defined authority more like any of 3, 4, 5 or 6. Probably 6
would be my favourite since I'd be more than willing to accept
guidelines from an expert if it ensures that my
questions/problems/perspectives will be addressed.
I sense something happening under these words:
I would certainly strive to follow the community standards, and I
have no
problems gently (preferably off list) pointing a community newcomer to a
list of community preferences.
Then you have already grasped the necessity for the rules (you call them
community standards) and you are the authority (to the newcomer).
But someone who pops off about violating
"the rules" is likely to get an earful from me.
Is this the core of your dissension? How about stating for us all that
if someone "pops off" about violations of "the rules", you would not
give "an earful". Rather you would take a few minutes to question
yourself as to whether or not, you might have actually caused some
problems? No community could ask for a better member!
Have a great day!
Rob
5:18 p.m.
Rob <ehodgins(a)telusplanet.net> says:
Isn't that a bit of an extreme reaction?
Ever had someone impose a rule on you with no explanation? Like a parent or a
teacher?
> them "rules" implies that there is a firm structure in
place.
"Rules" implies no such thing!
Yes, they do.
regulations set up by authority
The literal definition of the word "rules" isn't the cause of the reaction
here. It's the personal reality that causes it. If you perceive authority as
arbitrary or capricious, you will certainly be upset by someone attempting to
impose rules on you.
In fact, one should question every "rule" or guideline put forth by anyone,
within the bounds of the situation.
And it is for precisely this reaction that I suggested a new title. "Rules"
and Regulations" are a double edged sword. They certainly can help smooth the
way, but they certainly can be abused. And have been throughout history. They
are, therefore, loaded words.
2. [n] the power or right to give orders or make decisions
Power corrupts.
To be sure, I understand the benefit of standards. But we must be mindful of
reality, and try to not use words that stop our message from being heard. Yes,
that can go too far, which is why we must also allow for discussions like this.
--
The universe is not only stranger than we (can) imagine,
it's stranger than we CARE to imagine!
http://www.hacksaw.org -- http://www.privatecircus.com -- KB1FVD
6:01 p.m.
Please can we stop wasting badnwidth on this. if you
feel strongly put up a website with yoru view on etiquette.
Lets try and keeop the list on topic.
thanks'
g/
To unsubscribe: http://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/fedora-list
7 p.m.
Mail Lists wrote:
Please can we stop wasting badnwidth on this. if you
feel strongly put up a website with yoru view on etiquette.
Lets try and keeop the list on topic.
thanks'
g/
>To unsubscribe: http://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/fedora-list
>
>
Where in hell were you during true episodes of bandwidth waste!
The fact of the matter is that new subscribers are steadily joining the
list as others unsubscribe from time to time. Those new subscribers
come to the list with diverse backgrounds, diverse experiences with
other mailing lists, and differing levels of prior preparation.
Exchanges like the present thread serve to communicate list conventions
to those new subscribers and to facilitate responses to questions from
more expert fedora users who want to assist other users.
Bitching and bellyaching about a very modest effort to promote and
maintain community conventions is unhelpful at best and bordering on the
infantile.
7:07 p.m.
Mail Lists wrote:
Please can we stop wasting badnwidth on this. if you
feel strongly put up a website with yoru view on etiquette.
Ok. I thought that I would help, but I guess that my efforts are just a
waste of my time and yours. So I will leave just like jdow. I'm sorry
but I have much better things to do with my time. However, you folks
can continue to argue over which is better and such. I'll just go out
and get my MAC, which has a REAL UNIX operating system.
--
James McKenzie
With assistance, Now running 2.6.11rc3, Software Suspend 2
and ibm-acpi .1
Need a home for my .rpm
7:15 p.m.
On Sat, 26 Feb 2005 18:07:31 -0700, James McKenzie
<jjmckenzie51(a)earthlink.net> wrote:
Mail Lists wrote:
> Please can we stop wasting badnwidth on this. if you
> feel strongly put up a website with yoru view on etiquette.
no. its not. collect the feedback and post the result to fedora docs list
and get my MAC, which has a REAL UNIX operating system.
Unix is no more just an operating system. its a trade mark given to a
class of operating systems if they certify with open group. neither
Macs or Linux distributions have done that with the possible exception
of caldera Linux.
--
Regards,
Rahul Sundaram
8:35 p.m.
On Sat, 2005-02-26 at 18:07 -0700, James McKenzie wrote:
Mail Lists wrote:
> Please can we stop wasting badnwidth on this. if you
> feel strongly put up a website with yoru view on etiquette.
>
Ok. I thought that I would help, but I guess that my efforts are just a
waste of my time and yours. So I will leave just like jdow. I'm sorry
but I have much better things to do with my time. However, you folks
can continue to argue over which is better and such. I'll just go out
and get my MAC, which has a REAL UNIX operating system.
----
I guess I don't get some people
Joanne ? - she was gonna leave anyway
You ? - do what you feel is right
The notion of ego's is so absurd - this is a mail list for people to
learn / exchange info on Fedora.
People need to restrain their ego's while sitting at the keyboard
Not take everything so damn seriously
Not try to control everything
Learn to use the Delete key
Learn to click Close Box sometimes instead of Send
The MAC comment about REAL UNIX was stupid baiting - People need to
figure out that it's just computers - they're called tools.
Craig
7:01 p.m.
----- Original Message -----
From: "Hodgins Family" <ehodgins(a)telusplanet.net>
To: <fedora-list(a)redhat.com>
Sent: Saturday, February 26, 2005 2:38 PM
Subject: Re: List Rules
Good afternoon!
<drivel snipped>
Have a great day!
Um, sure.
Rob
This type of hair-splitting, barracks-lawyering claptrap is exactly what I
am talking about. People like this are the ones who will take "the rules"
and decide that it is their job to publicly gripe if your signature doesn't
have a space after the hyphens, or your .sig is too long, too short,
politically correct, or whatever. Screw that.
How about this - if you don't like someone's post, delete it. Or maybe
refer them (preferably privately) to ESR's "How To Ask Questions The Smart
Way." It isn't your (or my) place to tell anyone how they should live their
life, whether it is wearing some color after a certain date or using HTML or
top posting or [fill in your favorite stupid peeve that some nimrod is bound
to gripe about].
If the owner of this list (that would be Red Hat) wants to impose rules,
then so be it. It's their bandwidth, their servers, their product. But if
someone who has no more or less standing (we're all volunteers here except
Warren Togami and Colin Charles) than me tries to tell me what "the rules"
are, I'm going to tell them to go pound sand.
Now seriously, let this stupid thread die.
Cheers,
Thomas
8:16 a.m.
On Sat, Feb 26, 2005 at 07:01:29PM -0600, Thomas Cameron wrote:
This type of hair-splitting, barracks-lawyering claptrap is exactly
what I
.................
How about this - if you don't like someone's post, delete it. Or maybe
refer them (preferably privately) to ESR's "How To Ask Questions The Smart
Way." It isn't your (or my) place to tell anyone how they should live their
life,
Hi Tom, Sorry to bring this up, but you are shooting your self in the
foot (figuratively).
One of the principles ESR strongly promotes in "How To Ask Questions The
Smart Way." is that you correct people in public, not private.
He urges people to do it loudly, in public, on the list. Why?
This way the community standards are made visible to newcomers and
if discussion or debate is needed, then it happens in public where
everyone can participate/benefit/ignore as it suits them.
A quick analysis of the content of the list will show that these standards
are in common use and practice. Keeping them visible has definitely
been good for the list.
I see from your five line attribution that you use Outlook -
There is a fix for this and other defects in Outlook here:
To fix Outlook:
http://home.in.tum.de/~jain/software/outlook-quotefix/
To fix outlook express:
http://home.in.tum.de/~jain/software/oe-quotefix/
--
http://www.fedoratracker.org http://www.fedorafaq.org
Jeff Kinz, Emergent Research, Hudson, MA.
6:31 p.m.
Good afternoon!
On Sat, 2005-02-26 at 19:01 -0600, Thomas Cameron wrote:
----- Original Message -----
From: "Hodgins Family" <ehodgins(a)telusplanet.net>
To: <fedora-list(a)redhat.com>
Sent: Saturday, February 26, 2005 2:38 PM
Subject: Re: List Rules
> Good afternoon!
<drivel snipped>
I'm truly sorry you decided my reply was drivel and not
worth
consideration, my friend. You might have learned something.
> Have a great day!
Um, sure.
Well, did you? Or did you go back and re-read what the original post
actually said.....rather than making it up all by your lonesome self?
This type of hair-splitting, barracks-lawyering claptrap is exactly
what I
am talking about. People like this are the ones who will take "the rules"
and decide that it is their job to publicly gripe if your signature doesn't
have a space after the hyphens, or your .sig is too long, too short,
politically correct, or whatever. Screw that.
No hair splitting here, old friend.
Read my post again. I seek to
broaden the "hairs" that you are narrowing. You are narrowing the
meanings of accepted words and meanings. Why?
Frankly, I don't care how you present yourself to the public. Make your
signature without a space after the hyphens, if you think you must. Make
your .sig too long, too short, politically correct, or whatever. Wear a
tattoo, a mohawk. Screw this, that or anything within reach. But Mr.
Cameron, don't you think you would be less confusing to the rest of us
if you could spare a few seconds to sit down and try to understand (and
that means reading prior postings and looking up what words mean, Mr.
Cameron) what is being offered LONG BEFORE spinning horror stories of
punishments and telling us what the words "really" mean (or imply, or
seem to mean).
How about this - if you don't like someone's post, delete it.
You, me and everybody else are a part of a community. We all have a
stake in how we conduct ourselves. And we use words to communicate. I
don't enjoy anybody dictating to me what words in common usage "really"
mean (Nice try, though :)). Especially, when the offered definitions are
demonstrably too narrow. I will not just delete you and hope you don't
exist any more. You do. So does your ignorance. So does your
arrogance...
You might want to be brought up to speed not only on current practices
in societies and communities, but also in current word usage. Here's a
tip: buy a dictionary, join the community. And stop spinning scary
stories about punishments and authorities who use them. They don't
exist. Relax, calm down, and then you can contribute something
worthwhile. (Breathe! Breathe!)
Or maybe
refer them (preferably privately) to ESR's "How To Ask Questions The Smart
Way." It isn't your (or my) place to tell anyone how they should live their
life, whether it is wearing some color after a certain date or using HTML or
top posting or [fill in your favorite stupid peeve that some nimrod is bound
to gripe about].
Well okay, if your HTML sent me a nasty, yeah that is your place. No,
that is your problem, because you made it mine. And, my friend, it would
be my place to ensure that you helped me clean up your mess. And wear
whatever colour pleases you (although I don't see how this is relevant
to the original post...oh, you still haven't read the original post,
have you?). I guess that my favorite stupid peeve is that you are
reacting to what you think words mean and are content to stay
self-righteous in spite of your ignorance.
If the owner of this list (that would be Red Hat) wants to impose
rules,
then so be it. It's their bandwidth, their servers, their product. But if
someone who has no more or less standing (we're all volunteers here except
Warren Togami and Colin Charles) than me tries to tell me what "the rules"
are, I'm going to tell them to go pound sand
Owners, so far, haven't entered the list with rules, punishments or
authorities. Oooh, Mister Cameron, where are they? It is just you and
the rest of us, with you telling us what words "really" mean.
Pretentious creature!
If someone who has no more or less standing (we're all volunteers here
except Warren Togami and Colin Charles) than me tries to tell me what
our words mean, I'm going to tell them to go pound sand.
And I have found the sand! Mr. Cameron, box your ears, and know that you
have found the sand.
Good day, Mr. Cameron.
7:06 p.m.
On Sun, 27 Feb 2005 17:31:25 -0700
Hodgins Family <ehodgins(a)telusplanet.net> insightfully noted:
<snipping the rant a bit>
HF>Owners, so far, haven't entered the list with rules, punishments or
HF>authorities. Oooh, Mister Cameron, where are they? It is just you and
HF>the rest of us, with you telling us what words "really" mean.
HF>Pretentious creature!
================================
I'm not certain who's more pretentious, "Mr. Cameron" or Hodgins
Family.
<sigh>
===============================
HF>
HF>If someone who has no more or less standing (we're all volunteers here
HF>except Warren Togami and Colin Charles) than me tries to tell me what
HF>our words mean, I'm going to tell them to go pound sand.
HF>
HF>And I have found the sand! Mr. Cameron, box your ears, and know that
HF>you have found the sand.
HF>
HF>Good day, Mr. Cameron.
============================
PLONK!
Not sure what any of this has to do with fedora, but thank goodness for
filters.........
--
"The man who views the world the same at 50 as he did at 20 has wasted 30
years of his life"
--Muhammad Ali
7:07 p.m.
On Sun, 2005-02-27 at 17:31 -0700, Hodgins Family wrote:
Good afternoon!
----
feel better now that you've said your piece? I hope so.
Since the person that started the thread said he was unsubbing the list
and it's clear that there always will be some who want to put a voice to
some rules on this list and some who will voice their opposition to said
rules this will never be resolved.
- NOT EVER -
Of course, people can continue just kicking a dead dog...
Your choice...
Craig
1:31 p.m.
Hacksaw wrote:
This is actually a misinterpretation of a much better idea: When
replying to a
message, quote the relevant passage you are replying to as concisely as
possible, preceeding each line with a non alphanumeric, preferably '>', then
add your reply in plain text.
Repeat as necessary.
Good suggestion. Thank you for it.
>3. Search the list archives before posting a question.
This leads me to another important suggestion. To aid in the searching, please
write subject lines that concisely tag the message. For instance, if you are
having a problem getting past the partitioning phase of an install of FC3,
don't set the subject to "Install Fails", set it to "Can't get
past
partitioning on FC3".
Again, I will add this.
Two other suggestions come to mind here. First is that you probably shouldn't
call it "List Rules". It might be better to call it "Suggestions to ensure
the
widest readership of your question or problem." This gets the goal across
nicely.
The eventual goal is to send these to Red Hat management to be adopted
and send to 'new' list members and to be made available on the Fedora
web site. This is why I posted them to the list for refinement by the
members of the list.
The second is that ad hominem attacks probably won't result in positive
action. In fact, in the old days, a million years ago in Internet time, we
called those sorts of posts "Trolls".
This is the number one reason that
we need 'guidelines' on acceptable
conduct. One of those guidelines is to leave moderation of the list to
the moderators. I've seen many messages about 'rule' infractions, but
no published rules to back them up.
--
James McKenzie
With assistance, Now running 2.6.11rc4, Software Suspend 2
and ibm-acpi .1
Need a home for my .rpm
2:23 p.m.
On Sat, 2005-02-26 at 12:31 -0700, James McKenzie wrote:
> The second is that ad hominem attacks probably won't result
in positive
> action. In fact, in the old days, a million years ago in Internet time, we
> called those sorts of posts "Trolls".
This is the number one reason that we need 'guidelines' on acceptable
conduct. One of those guidelines is to leave moderation of the list to
the moderators. I've seen many messages about 'rule' infractions, but
no published rules to back them up.
----
I don't quarrel with your motivations but I do quarrel with your
expectations.
1 - This is Red Hat server and they make the rules. They have
deliberately chosen to keep the rules to a minimum. They are going to
let pretty much everything slide that isn't entirely disrupted to the
commerce of the list.
2 - You are confusing convention with etiquette and then rfc standards -
they are clearly not the same thing at all.
Convention would have a large amount of email programs putting in a "> "
at the beginning of each line copied from the original into a reply.
This is almost always configurable on the mail client (I don't know of
one that doesn't offer configuration options). Some clients (mutt comes
to mind) will use "\_ " for this purpose by default - who cares? This
isn't rfc (there's no standard to point to). In essence, you are
converting this convention into an etiquette because it suits you.
3 - There is always an outcry when someone tries to be 'list mom' and
point out transgressions - not that I care but it tends to drag the list
into an argument about the suitability. Thus the intent of having some
set of rules to minimize useless traffic becomes the cause for more
useless traffic. My personal belief is that I can filter out most of the
stuff either by sending specific user to /dev/null or by deleting
threads but people 'spamming' list with commercial inducements - whether
direct or by indirect viral marketing tend to rankle me.
If you go back to the routing weekly posting that 'Melgil' used to post
about FC-2 stuff last Sept/Oct/Nov, that seemed to be the type of thing
that has value - most of what you are discussing, despite all good
intentions, strikes me as fairly useless.
Generally, when someone isn't getting it, I tend to point them to:
<http://www.catb.org/~esr/faqs/smart-questions.html>
Craig
2:46 p.m.
On Sat, Feb 26, 2005 at 01:23:25PM -0700, Craig White wrote:
1 - This is Red Hat server and they make the rules. They have
deliberately chosen to keep the rules to a minimum. They are going to
let pretty much everything slide that isn't entirely disrupted to the
commerce of the list.
Err, sure. Therefore it's nice for the community to have some basic
standards of our own.
Convention would have a large amount of email programs putting in a
"> "
at the beginning of each line copied from the original into a reply.
This is almost always configurable on the mail client (I don't know of
one that doesn't offer configuration options). Some clients (mutt comes
to mind) will use "\_ " for this purpose by default - who cares? This
Um, mutt uses "> " by default. I've never heard of "\_ " being
anything's
default.
--
Matthew Miller mattdm(a)mattdm.org <http://www.mattdm.org/>
Boston University Linux ------> <http://linux.bu.edu/>
3:25 p.m.
I believe this subject can be found in the archives. You might want to
start back about 6 months and read every single thread. By the time that
all of the threads are completely read, you will realize that this topic
is more apt to waste bandwidth than to actually solve anything.
Jim
--
A budget is just a method of worrying before you spend money, as well
as afterward.
8:36 a.m.
On Sat, Feb 26, 2005 at 01:23:25PM -0700, Craig White wrote:
1 - This is Red Hat server and they make the rules. They have
deliberately chosen to keep the rules to a minimum. They are going to
let pretty much everything slide that isn't entirely disrupted to the
commerce of the list.
True - RedHat has the approach of mostly letting the communities that
form around each mailing list be self governing. In this sense, each
community gets to decide what standards/practices it needs to follow.
2 - You are confusing convention with etiquette and then rfc
standards -
they are clearly not the same thing at all.
False - See RFC 1855 which covers Netiquette Guidelines
http://www.faqs.org/rfcs/rfc1855.html
Pay special attention to section 3 "One-to-Many Communication"
which covers how to use mailing lists, and which, coincidentally, the
recently posted "list rules" are largely a copy of.
Generally, when someone isn't getting it, I tend to point them
to:
<http://www.catb.org/~esr/faqs/smart-questions.html>
An Excellent document which says, by the way - the way to point it out
to them is to do so in public.
Quote from the RedHat Install List Guidelines quoting ESR:
#################################################################
This is a quote from Eric Raymond and Rick Moen's paper on "How to ask
for help the smart way":
"Community standards do not maintain themselves: They're maintained by
people actively applying them, visibly, in public. Don't whine that all
criticism should have been conveyed via private mail: That's not how it
works. Nor is it useful to insist you've been personally insulted when
someone comments that one of your claims was wrong, or that his views
differ. Those are loser attitudes."
#################################################################
--
Jeff Kinz, Emergent Research, Hudson, MA.
9:07 a.m.
On Sun, 2005-02-27 at 09:36 -0500, Jeff Kinz wrote:
On Sat, Feb 26, 2005 at 01:23:25PM -0700, Craig White wrote:
> 2 - You are confusing convention with etiquette and then rfc
standards -
> they are clearly not the same thing at all.
False - See RFC 1855 which covers Netiquette Guidelines
http://www.faqs.org/rfcs/rfc1855.html
Pay special attention to section 3 "One-to-Many Communication"
which covers how to use mailing lists, and which, coincidentally, the
recently posted "list rules" are largely a copy of.
----
but of course, that doesn't say anything about prefacing each line of a
quote reply with '> ' and I'm quite sure that there was more ad-hoc
extensions.
this topic has been beaten to death
Craig
9:31 a.m.
On Sun, Feb 27, 2005 at 08:07:15AM -0700, Craig White wrote:
On Sun, 2005-02-27 at 09:36 -0500, Jeff Kinz wrote:
> http://www.faqs.org/rfcs/rfc1855.html
>
> Pay special attention to section 3 "One-to-Many Communication"
> which covers how to use mailing lists, and which, coincidentally, the
> recently posted "list rules" are largely a copy of.
----
but of course, that doesn't say anything about prefacing each line of a
quote reply with '> '
A 'net convention so widely subscribed to that even MS software defaults
to it - they probably felt it was such a given they didn't need to
mention it.
and I'm quite sure that there was more ad-hoc extensions.
Nope. If there were I'm sure you would have pointed them out.
Its a good short list (referring to the "List rules" post).
this topic has been beaten to death
And will continue to be. 'Tis the nature of the net. :)
--
Jeff Kinz, Emergent Research, Hudson, MA.
4:37 p.m.
On Fri, 25 Feb 2005 20:47:30 -0700, James McKenzie
<jjmckenzie51(a)earthlink.net> wrote:
All:
Here is the first edition of the List Rules.
Nice work here James.
The first thing is that I, like you, are a regular member of the
list
but have read through many messages about 'netequitte' within this list.
[snip]
2. Place your replies at the bottom of messages. This is an old
method
used for many years. Preface any text to be replied to with a
character, most folks use a greater than sign '>' but any special
printable character will suffice.
Maybe you should mention that this is the default for most mail client
when using plain text messages (the prefixing stuff). Also, you might
mention to trim parts of the message that you are not replying to
directly. There have been a couple of suggestions here that I liked,
such as place your reply below the text you are replying to (this
works with in-text replies) and the suggested verbiage changes works
well too.
[snip]
this release, including making Secure Linux (SELinux) a default.
Minor thing, but SELinux is Security-Enhanced Linux :).
[snip]
5. To unsubscibe from the list you can visit the Fedora Mail List
web
page at http://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/fedora-list
Perhaps add here, "so please do not send 'unsubscribe' requests to the
list" :)
Another couple of things come to mind. Along with the choosing a good
subject bit suggested already, make sure if you use digest mode to
change the subject appropriately, and do not quote the entire digest
message. Perhaps we should discourage the use of digest mode, since
it seems to be counter-productive in most instances.
Also maybe something about changing the subject if and only if the
topic of the thread changes. At least for me, small changes in the
subject line cause Gmail to treat it as another thread and that can be
annoying to have bits a pieces to a thread in different spots. This
isn't really a mainstream one, but I thought I'd throw it out there to
see what people thought.
I really think we need to have some rules here. I know I had never
heard the term top-posting before it was mentioned on the list, as
well as several other netiquette terms mentioned here. How are people
going to know they are not doing things right if they are never told?
If I help someone out who has sent HTML mail or top-posted, I always
try to send them a little PS to let them know about it. I don't think
people should send emails to the list only telling someone that they
are not following proper netiquette. If you are going to do that,
send the email off-list, directly to the person. Those are my
thoughts on the "list cop" accusations.
Jonathan
4:45 p.m.
On Fri, 25 Feb 2005 20:47:30 -0700, James McKenzie
<jjmckenzie51(a)earthlink.net> wrote:
All:
Here is the first edition of the List Rules.
The first thing is that I, like you, are a regular member of the list
but have read through many messages about 'netequitte' within this list.
Just a couple of hints:
I think a lot of this is already covered in Eric S. Raymond's Howto
"How To Ask Questions The Smart Way".
URL: http://www.catb.org/~esr/faqs/smart-questions.html
Perhaps that document can be used as a resource for your list, or
perhaps it can simply be adopted or suggested as good reading to new
folks.
--
Chris
"Build a man a fire and he will be warm for the rest of the night. Set
a man on fire and he will be warm for the rest of his life." -- Unknown
5:04 p.m.
Christofer C. Bell wrote:
On Fri, 25 Feb 2005 20:47:30 -0700, James McKenzie
<jjmckenzie51(a)earthlink.net> wrote:
I think a lot of this is already covered in Eric S. Raymond's Howto
"How To Ask Questions The Smart Way".
URL: http://www.catb.org/~esr/faqs/smart-questions.html
Perhaps that document can be used as a resource for your list, or
perhaps it can simply be adopted or suggested as good reading to new
folks.
Good resource. I will add it to the "How to Ask Smart Questions on the
Fedora Lists" guidance document.
--
James McKenzie
With assistance, Now running 2.6.11rc3, Software Suspend 2
and ibm-acpi .1
Need a home for my .rpm
3:40 a.m.
New subject: Fedora Core Support List Unofficial User's Guide (draft 2 - Duncan Lithgow))
I've gone through most of the posts on this and would like to submit
draft 2 based on many of the comments - at least the ones who think
this is worth doing at all... Please read it through and ammend/
correct / reorganise as you see fit.
If you wish to suggest minor changes do so by reposting but applying
your own name. For major changes please change the draft number. That
way we can see what's happening and the archive will document our
progress (or lack thereof).
Or, does someone have a wiki we could develop this on - posting
periodically back to the list?
I have...
a. Tried to simplify the language for non-native english speakers.
b. Tried to seperate the points more
c. Added some links where relevant
d. Tried to take accusatory language out (we can see on this thread
that some peope are _very_ sensative)
e. gone for the boring name modeled on the RHIL
f. I've removed the reference to signatures. So seldom a problem it
doesn't seem worth the agrivation.
g. hereby aknowledged the good work of James McKenzie in starting
this. But he says he's left now - hope he comes back.
x. Added a whole new section two: "The ten most useful resources for
finding the answer before asking the list."
I hope this is helpful.
Duncan
(accepting all comment and criticism but ignoring all flames)
################
Part One: Fedora Core Support List Unofficial User's Guide
Part Two: The ten most useful resources for finding the answer before
asking the list.
=======
Part One:
Fedora Core Support List Unofficial User's Guide
=======
Introduction: We are all regular member of the list and discussion
about netequitte is ongoing. Previously established conventions are
always being re-questions. So, please read this in the spirit of
creating an evolving concensus. This guide is in the spirit of the
"RedHat Install List (RHIL) Unofficial User's Guide" [1] and "How To
Ask Questions The Smart Way" [2]
4. Search for the answer before posting a question. See part two.
(Why? You'll learn more and might just fix it yourself. )
2. Set your mailer to send only plain text messages to the list [3].
(Why? HTML is designed for web pages not emails, and uses a lot more
bandwidth. Many list members actually block HTML because it is used
for malicious code. [4] )
3. Make a subject line that tells us what you need. Try "Can't get
past partitioning on FC3" instead of "Argg - help me!!!". Why? So
that the right people read it.
4. Make sure we can tell what you are replying to. Place each part of
your reply after the text it addresses and delete unneeded text. Most
mail readers put a '>' character in front of each replied to line.
(Why? It gives a conversational flow to the text, and people know
what you're replying to.)
5. To unsubscibe from the list you can visit the Fedora Mail List web
page at http://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/fedora-list
[1] http://www.rhil.net/docs/rhil-guide.html
[2] http://www.catb.org/~esr/faqs/smart-questions.html
[3] http://www.expita.com/nomime.html
[4] http://www.georgedillon.com/web/html_email_is_evil.shtml
======
Part Two:
The ten most useful resources for finding the answer before asking
fedora-list.
======
1. Run the 'man' command. Get a terminal window by right clicking on
the desktop. In the window type (without the '$')
$ man <application-name>
Substitute <application-name> with the name of the application you are
having trouble with.
2. Search the fedora-list archive
http://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/fedora-list
3. Search http://google.com and http://google.com/linux
4. Look through the Linux Documentation Project http://www.tldp.org/
5. Read the Fedora Core Release Notes
http://fedora.redhat.com/docs/release-notes/
6. Look through The Unofficial Fedora FAQ: http://www.fedorafaq.org/
7.
8.
9.
10.
#############
--
Linux user #372812: more stable and cheaper than windows
GnuPG Public Key ID: 0x2BB9667C21A8C63A: protecting your security
3:46 a.m.
New subject: Fedora Core Support List Unofficial User's Guide (draft 2 - Duncan Lithgow))
======
1. Run the 'man' command. Get a terminal window by right clicking on
the desktop. In the window type (without the '$')
$ man <application-name>
Substitute <application-name> with the name of the application you are
having trouble with.
info command name
locate <stuff you want to know about>
rpm -qd <packagename>
fedora.redhat.com/docs
redhat.com/docs
fedoratracker.org
fedoraproject.org/extras
--
Regards,
Rahul Sundaram
11:10 a.m.
New subject: Fedora Core Support List Unofficial User's Guide (draft 2 - Duncan Lithgow))
On Mon, 28 Feb 2005 15:16:24 +0530, Rahul Sundaram wrote:
> ======
>
> 1. Run the 'man' command. Get a terminal window by right clicking on
> the desktop. In the window type (without the '$')
> $ man <application-name>
> Substitute <application-name> with the name of the application you are
> having trouble with.
info command name
locate <stuff you want to know about>
rpm -qd <packagename>
I'm in the habit of using rpm -q, and also man; so I tried man rpm (wow!),
and dug for -d. It told me a little in two places about doc[ument(s)] --
but that tells me nothing, alas! What does rpm -qd do for you in practice
that rpm -q does not??
--
Beartooth Implacable, Linux Evangelist & Gadfly
neo-redneck, curmudgeonly codger with FC1 & YDL 4.0
Pine 4.61, Pan 0.14.2; Privoxy 3.0.1; Opera 7.54, Firefox 1.0
Bear in mind that I have little idea what I am talking about.
11:25 a.m.
New subject: Fedora Core Support List Unofficial User's Guide (draft 2 - Duncan Lithgow))
beartooth wrote:
On Mon, 28 Feb 2005 15:16:24 +0530, Rahul Sundaram wrote:
>>======
>>
>>1. Run the 'man' command. Get a terminal window by right clicking on
>>the desktop. In the window type (without the '$')
>>$ man <application-name>
>>Substitute <application-name> with the name of the application you are
>>having trouble with.
>>
>>
>info command name
>locate <stuff you want to know about>
>rpm -qd <packagename>
>
>
I'm in the habit of using rpm -q, and also man; so I tried man rpm (wow!),
and dug for -d. It told me a little in two places about doc[ument(s)] --
but that tells me nothing, alas! What does rpm -qd do for you in practice
that rpm -q does not??
Please continue discussion above under a suitable thread title.
8:15 a.m.
New subject: Fedora Core Support List Unofficial User's Guide (draft 2 - Duncan Lithgow))
On Mon, Feb 28, 2005 at 10:40:18AM +0100, Duncan Lithgow wrote:
I've gone through most of the posts on this and would like to
submit
draft 2 based on many of the comments - at least the ones who think
this is worth doing at all... Please read it through and ammend/
correct / reorganise as you see fit.
Good re-write, thank you.
I think some of the objection to "The Rules" is that the objectors see
them as arbitrary. They are not arbitrary, but have good reasons
behind them. Your "Why" sections help bring out those reasons.
From reading the foofaraw Mr. McKenzie's original post generated, I
suspect that it is worthwile to mention that one advantage to
following netiquette is that you are more likely to get your question
answered if you do.
Introduction: We are all regular member of the list and discussion
about netequitte is ongoing. Previously established conventions are
always being re-questions. So, please read this in the spirit of
creating an evolving concensus. This guide is in the spirit of the
"RedHat Install List (RHIL) Unofficial User's Guide" [1] and "How To
Ask Questions The Smart Way" [2]
You may also find useful http://www.charlescurley.com/netiquette.html.
3. Make a subject line that tells us what you need. Try "Can't get
past partitioning on FC3" instead of "Argg - help me!!!". Why? So
that the right people read it.
On medium and high traffic lists (such as this one), many people
decide whether to read a message solely on the subject line. This is
not obvious to people who are new to mailing lists.
4. Make sure we can tell what you are replying to. Place each part of
your reply after the text it addresses and delete unneeded text. Most
mail readers put a '>' character in front of each replied to line.
(Why? It gives a conversational flow to the text, and people know
what you're replying to.)
4.5. Trim irrelevant material. Why? It makes it eaier to read your
reply and helps the reader to stay on subject.
--
Charles Curley /"\ ASCII Ribbon Campaign
Looking for fine software \ / Respect for open standards
and/or writing? X No HTML/RTF in email
http://www.charlescurley.com / \ No M$ Word docs in email
Key fingerprint = CE5C 6645 A45A 64E4 94C0 809C FFF6 4C48 4ECD DFDB
12:46 p.m.
New subject: Fedora Core Support List Unofficial User's Guide (draft 2 - Duncan Lithgow))
On Mon, 28 Feb 2005 10:40:18 +0100, Duncan Lithgow
<duncan(a)lithgow-schmidt.dk> wrote:
I've gone through most of the posts on this and would like to
submit
draft 2 based on many of the comments - at least the ones who think
this is worth doing at all... Please read it through and ammend/
correct / reorganise as you see fit.
If you wish to suggest minor changes do so by reposting but applying
your own name. For major changes please change the draft number. That
way we can see what's happening and the archive will document our
progress (or lack thereof).
Or, does someone have a wiki we could develop this on - posting
periodically back to the list?
I have...
a. Tried to simplify the language for non-native english speakers.
b. Tried to seperate the points more
c. Added some links where relevant
d. Tried to take accusatory language out (we can see on this thread
that some peope are _very_ sensative)
e. gone for the boring name modeled on the RHIL
f. I've removed the reference to signatures. So seldom a problem it
doesn't seem worth the agrivation.
g. hereby aknowledged the good work of James McKenzie in starting
this. But he says he's left now - hope he comes back.
x. Added a whole new section two: "The ten most useful resources for
finding the answer before asking the list."
I hope this is helpful.
Duncan
(accepting all comment and criticism but ignoring all flames)
################
Part One: Fedora Core Support List Unofficial User's Guide
Part Two: The ten most useful resources for finding the answer before
asking the list.
=======
Part One:
Fedora Core Support List Unofficial User's Guide
=======
Introduction: We are all regular member of the list and discussion
about netequitte is ongoing. Previously established conventions are
always being re-questions. So, please read this in the spirit of
creating an evolving concensus. This guide is in the spirit of the
"RedHat Install List (RHIL) Unofficial User's Guide" [1] and "How To
Ask Questions The Smart Way" [2]
4. Search for the answer before posting a question. See part two.
(Why? You'll learn more and might just fix it yourself. )
2. Set your mailer to send only plain text messages to the list [3].
(Why? HTML is designed for web pages not emails, and uses a lot more
bandwidth. Many list members actually block HTML because it is used
for malicious code. [4] )
Duncan, this is great. I would like to put in a plug for one more
etiquette suggestion for section 2 of part one:
b) When you send in a new topic, do not start by replying to an
existing message, but rather, start a new message to
"fedora-list(a)redhat.com". This keeps messages organized by thread, for
people who like to use threads (on high-volume mailing lists like this
one, threads can be a great convenience).
I confess that I came to this discussion late, and maybe you have
already talked about this issue. It does come up frequently, however,
and probably deserves to be in the new-user guide.
Thanks,
Matt
1:12 a.m.
New subject: Fedora Core Support List Unofficial User's Guide (draft 2 - Duncan Lithgow))
On Mon, 28 Feb 2005 13:46:22 -0500, Matt Morgan <minxmertzmomo(a)gmail.com> wrote:
b) When you send in a new topic, do not start by replying to an
existing message, but rather, start a new message to
"fedora-list(a)redhat.com". This keeps messages organized by thread, for
people who like to use threads (on high-volume mailing lists like this
one, threads can be a great convenience).
I second that.
Another thing that may be interesting is to suggest the person who
made the original post to, when a solution to his problem is found,
finish the discussion with a last post adding something like [SOLVED]
to the subject line, and indicating /what/ exactly solved the problem.
That should help the readers to know the problem was finally solved
without even having to read the messages; helps the monthly
statistics; helps *a lot* when searching the archives later.
One question, though. How are these rules going to be made known? If I
may make a suggestion, I think a monthly mail reminder would be good.
Also, it could be kept in a web page, and a link to this page added in
the bottom of the messages, together with the "Fedora-list" things.
--
------------------------------------------------------------------
Gustavo Seabra Graduate Student
Chemistry Dept. Kansas State University
Registered Linux user number 381680
------------------------------------------------------------------
If at first you don't succeed...
...skydiving is not for you.
7:38 a.m.
New subject: Fedora Core Support List Unofficial User's Guide (draft 2 - Duncan Lithgow))
On Tue, 1 Mar 2005 01:12:35 -0600, Gustavo Seabra
<gustavo.seabra(a)gmail.com> wrote:
Another thing that may be interesting is to suggest the person who
made the original post to, when a solution to his problem is found,
finish the discussion with a last post adding something like [SOLVED]
to the subject line, and indicating /what/ exactly solved the problem.
That should help the readers to know the problem was finally solved
without even having to read the messages; helps the monthly
statistics; helps *a lot* when searching the archives later.
Unfortunately, changing the subject lines breaks threading. It makes
it look like an entirely new thread. The archives, news readers, and
some mail programs (gmail) can sort messages into conversations based
on the subject line. If you change the subject line, then the "Solved"
portion of the message shows up as another thread.
What might be better is to suggest NOT changing subject lines and to
know that if you happen to be looking at the archives, the end of the
thread may have a solution for you.
--
David
Registered Linux User 383030 (since everyone else was doing it 8-)
-----------------------------------------------------------------------
There are only 10 kinds of people in this world,
those who understand binary, and those who don't.
9:44 a.m.
New subject: Fedora Core Support List Unofficial User's Guide (draft 2 - Duncan Lithgow))
On Tuesday 01 March 2005 08:38 am, David Hoffman wrote:
On Tue, 1 Mar 2005 01:12:35 -0600, Gustavo Seabra
<gustavo.seabra(a)gmail.com> wrote:
> Another thing that may be interesting is to suggest the person who
> made the original post to, when a solution to his problem is found,
> finish the discussion with a last post adding something like [SOLVED]
> to the subject line, and indicating /what/ exactly solved the problem.
> That should help the readers to know the problem was finally solved
> without even having to read the messages; helps the monthly
> statistics; helps *a lot* when searching the archives later.
Unfortunately, changing the subject lines breaks threading. It makes
it look like an entirely new thread.
Tain't necessarily so. Changing the subject line does *not* break the thread
on real^H^H^H^Hmany mail readers. People who indulge in this practice are
commonly referred to as "hijackers". (Remember, just because Microsoft
products work that way doesn't mean that it is correct.)
The archives, news readers, and
some mail programs (gmail) can sort messages into conversations based
on the subject line. If you change the subject line, then the "Solved"
portion of the message shows up as another thread.
Again, not on real^H^H^H^Hmany mail readers. Also, you are mistaken about the
archives. Both the MARC and Redhat archives *do* preserve threads.
What might be better is to suggest NOT changing subject lines and to
know that if you happen to be looking at the archives, the end of the
thread may have a solution for you.
"may" is too indefinite. I'd rather know that the proposed solution was
indeed
effective in at least one case; [SOLVED] is good.
-- cmg
10:34 a.m.
New subject: Fedora Core Support List Unofficial User's Guide (draft 2 - Duncan Lithgow))
On Tue, 1 Mar 2005 10:44:45 -0500, Carroll Grigsby <cgrigs(a)earthlink.net> wrote:
> The archives, news readers, and
> some mail programs (gmail) can sort messages into conversations based
> on the subject line. If you change the subject line, then the "Solved"
> portion of the message shows up as another thread.
Again, not on real^H^H^H^Hmany mail readers. Also, you are mistaken about the
archives. Both the MARC and Redhat archives *do* preserve threads.
Are you sure about that? Take a closer look at MARC archives. What's
wrong with these threads? They only show the "SOLVED" part of the
thread, but dropped off what led up to the solution. Changing the
subject line made it start a new thread.
http://marc.theaimsgroup.com/?t=110931389000001&r=1&w=2
http://marc.theaimsgroup.com/?t=110916514900004&r=1&w=2
http://marc.theaimsgroup.com/?t=110910991400007&r=1&w=2
8:45 p.m.
New subject: Fedora Core Support List Unofficial User's Guide (draft 2 - Duncan Lithgow))
On Tuesday 01 March 2005 11:34 am, David Hoffman wrote:
On Tue, 1 Mar 2005 10:44:45 -0500, Carroll Grigsby
<cgrigs(a)earthlink.net>
wrote:
>> snip
> Also, you are mistaken about
> the archives. Both the MARC and Redhat archives *do* preserve threads.
Are you sure about that? Take a closer look at MARC archives. What's
wrong with these threads? They only show the "SOLVED" part of the
thread, but dropped off what led up to the solution. Changing the
subject line made it start a new thread.
http://marc.theaimsgroup.com/?t=110931389000001&r=1&w=2
http://marc.theaimsgroup.com/?t=110916514900004&r=1&w=2
http://marc.theaimsgroup.com/?t=110910991400007&r=1&w=2
David:
My bad about MARC preserving threads. As noted by others, RH's Fedora archives
do preserve threading and that's a good thing.
-- cmg
9:06 p.m.
New subject: Fedora Core Support List Unofficial User's Guide (draft 2 - Duncan Lithgow))
On Tue, 1 Mar 2005 21:45:11 -0500, Carroll Grigsby <cgrigs(a)earthlink.net> wrote:
On Tuesday 01 March 2005 11:34 am, David Hoffman wrote:
David:
My bad about MARC preserving threads. As noted by others, RH's Fedora archives
do preserve threading and that's a good thing.
Yes, I saw that earlier too. It's just unfortunate that the RH archive
server is so slow, and the search function doesn't return the thread,
but the individual messages, so it makes it hard to see the whole
thread unless you go to the individual month thread that the message
was part of.
--
David
Registered Linux User 383030 (since everyone else was doing it 8-)
-----------------------------------------------------------------------
There are only 10 kinds of people in this world,
those who understand binary, and those who don't.
10:34 a.m.
New subject: Fedora Core Support List Unofficial User's Guide (draft 2 - Duncan Lithgow))
On Tue, 1 Mar 2005 07:38:27 -0600
David Hoffman <dhoffman2004(a)gmail.com> wrote:
Unfortunately, changing the subject lines breaks threading. It makes
it look like an entirely new thread. The archives, news readers, and
some mail programs (gmail) can sort messages into conversations based
on the subject line. If you change the subject line, then the "Solved"
portion of the message shows up as another thread.
Don't most readers sort messages into threads based on References headers
and not the subject line?
--
--------------------------------------------------------------------
* Charles Taylor <tomalek(a)mindspring.com>
* Chemistry instructor / Mad scientist / Linux enthusiast!
--------------------------------------------------------------------
* Web: http://home.mindspring.com/~charletiv/
--------------------------------------------------------------------
11:35 a.m.
New subject: Fedora Core Support List Unofficial User's Guide (draft 2 - Duncan Lithgow))
On Tue, 1 Mar 2005 11:34:10 -0500, Charles E Taylor IV
<tomalek(a)mindspring.com> wrote:
> Unfortunately, changing the subject lines breaks threading. It
makes
> it look like an entirely new thread. The archives, news readers, and
> some mail programs (gmail) can sort messages into conversations based
> on the subject line. If you change the subject line, then the "Solved"
> portion of the message shows up as another thread.
Don't most readers sort messages into threads based on References headers
and not the subject line?
That would depend on what reader you are using. But if we are going to
try to impress on people that they should search the archives before
posting FAQs to the list, shouldn't we try to make the archives as
useful as possible?
The archives are sorted by subject line. Here's a quick example. The
two links below go to two DIFFERENT threads on the same archive site.
The only reason they were listed as different threads is because
"SOLVED" was added to the subject line. These links only lead to a
test message, but there are many other instances that I have found on
the same archive site that do the same thing. (And the same is true
for the redhat archive site).
http://marc.theaimsgroup.com/?t=110930289600001&r=1&w=2
http://marc.theaimsgroup.com/?t=110931389000001&r=1&w=2
--
David
Registered Linux User 383030 (since everyone else was doing it 8-)
-----------------------------------------------------------------------
There are only 10 kinds of people in this world,
those who understand binary, and those who don't.
12:08 p.m.
New subject: Fedora Core Support List Unofficial User's Guide (draft 2 - Duncan Lithgow))
On Tue, 1 Mar 2005 11:35:20 -0600, David Hoffman <dhoffman2004(a)gmail.com> wrote:
On Tue, 1 Mar 2005 11:34:10 -0500, Charles E Taylor IV
<tomalek(a)mindspring.com> wrote:
> > Unfortunately, changing the subject lines breaks threading. It makes
> > it look like an entirely new thread. The archives, news readers, and
> > some mail programs (gmail) can sort messages into conversations based
> > on the subject line. If you change the subject line, then the
"Solved"
> > portion of the message shows up as another thread.
>
> Don't most readers sort messages into threads based on References headers
> and not the subject line?
That would depend on what reader you are using. But if we are going to
try to impress on people that they should search the archives before
posting FAQs to the list, shouldn't we try to make the archives as
useful as possible?
The archives are sorted by subject line. Here's a quick example. The
two links below go to two DIFFERENT threads on the same archive site.
The only reason they were listed as different threads is because
"SOLVED" was added to the subject line. These links only lead to a
test message, but there are many other instances that I have found on
the same archive site that do the same thing. (And the same is true
for the redhat archive site).
http://marc.theaimsgroup.com/?t=110930289600001&r=1&w=2
http://marc.theaimsgroup.com/?t=110931389000001&r=1&w=2
Wouldn't that be the case to write to the administrators of such
archives (apparently including RH) to fix this? IMHO this should be
considered a *bug*, and a relatively serious one, specially for
archives.
--
------------------------------------------------------------------
Gustavo Seabra Graduate Student
Chemistry Dept. Kansas State University
Registered Linux user number 381680
------------------------------------------------------------------
If at first you don't succeed...
...skydiving is not for you.
1:33 p.m.
New subject: Fedora Core Support List Unofficial User's Guide (draft 2 - Duncan Lithgow))
On Tue, 1 Mar 2005 11:35:20 -0600
David Hoffman <dhoffman2004(a)gmail.com> wrote:
The archives are sorted by subject line. Here's a quick example.
The
two links below go to two DIFFERENT threads on the same archive site.
The only reason they were listed as different threads is because
"SOLVED" was added to the subject line. These links only lead to a
test message, but there are many other instances that I have found on
the same archive site that do the same thing. (And the same is true
for the redhat archive site).
http://marc.theaimsgroup.com/?t=110930289600001&r=1&w=2
http://marc.theaimsgroup.com/?t=110931389000001&r=1&w=2
... but the official archives sorts this thread correctly. Isn't the
issue really that the marc archive has broken threading?
For example, see
https://www.redhat.com/archives/fedora-list/2005-February/thread.html
The "Test, please ignore" messages are sorted this way:
# Test, Please ignore., Gustavo Seabra
* Re: Test, Please ignore. [Solved], Gustavo Seabra
o Re: Test, Please ignore. [Solved], jim lawrence
(in other words, adding "solved" does NOT break the thread.
--
--------------------------------------------------------------------
* Charles Taylor <tomalek(a)mindspring.com>
* Chemistry instructor / Mad scientist / Linux enthusiast!
--------------------------------------------------------------------
* Web: http://home.mindspring.com/~charletiv/
--------------------------------------------------------------------
1:38 p.m.
New subject: Fedora Core Support List Unofficial User's Guide (draft 2 - Duncan Lithgow))
On Tue, 1 Mar 2005 14:33:51 -0500, Charles E Taylor IV
<tomalek(a)mindspring.com> wrote:
... but the official archives sorts this thread correctly. Isn't
the
issue really that the marc archive has broken threading?
For example, see
https://www.redhat.com/archives/fedora-list/2005-February/thread.html
I swear I looked for that earlier and I couldn't find it. But you are
correct, it looks like that list does hold the threads.
YES, this is the "official" site, but unfortunately, the server that
maintains that list is fairly well taxed, and access to it is slow at
best. Not to mention that the search function sometimes needs to be
hit a few times to find results. I think you will find that there are
many users who prefer to use MARC or GMANE or one of the other
archiving sites out there.
1:42 p.m.
New subject: Fedora Core Support List Unofficial User's Guide (draft 2 - Duncan Lithgow))
On Tue, 1 Mar 2005 13:38:49 -0600, David Hoffman <dhoffman2004(a)gmail.com> wrote:
Another issue is that the "official" site groups threads by the month
they were posted, and in that view you can see the entire thread.
However, if you try to do a search for a particular issue, (and IF the
search actually works) it lists a long listing of individual messages
without showing the thread. Opening an individual message can show you
the "Follow-up" and "Reference" links, but you have to do a lot of
clicking to follow the whole thread.
I'm not saying that the official site is bad... (well, yeah, I guess I
am) it's just that there are better sites that are faster, better
organized, and easier to search.
--
David
Registered Linux User 383030 (since everyone else was doing it 8-)
-----------------------------------------------------------------------
There are only 10 kinds of people in this world,
those who understand binary, and those who don't.
2:18 p.m.
New subject: testing threading - please ignore
On Tue, 2005-03-01 at 14:33 -0500, Charles E Taylor IV wrote:
On Tue, 1 Mar 2005 11:35:20 -0600
David Hoffman <dhoffman2004(a)gmail.com> wrote:
> The archives are sorted by subject line. Here's a quick example. The
> two links below go to two DIFFERENT threads on the same archive site.
> The only reason they were listed as different threads is because
> "SOLVED" was added to the subject line. These links only lead to a
> test message, but there are many other instances that I have found on
> the same archive site that do the same thing. (And the same is true
> for the redhat archive site).
>
> http://marc.theaimsgroup.com/?t=110930289600001&r=1&w=2
> http://marc.theaimsgroup.com/?t=110931389000001&r=1&w=2
... but the official archives sorts this thread correctly. Isn't the
issue really that the marc archive has broken threading?
For example, see
https://www.redhat.com/archives/fedora-list/2005-February/thread.html
The "Test, please ignore" messages are sorted this way:
# Test, Please ignore., Gustavo Seabra
* Re: Test, Please ignore. [Solved], Gustavo Seabra
o Re: Test, Please ignore. [Solved], jim lawrence
(in other words, adding "solved" does NOT break the thread.
--
--------------------------------------------------------------------
* Charles Taylor <tomalek(a)mindspring.com>
* Chemistry instructor / Mad scientist / Linux enthusiast!
--------------------------------------------------------------------
* Web: http://home.mindspring.com/~charletiv/
--------------------------------------------------------------------
2:23 p.m.
New subject: testing threading - please ignore
On Tue, 2005-03-01 at 21:18 +0100, Duncan Lithgow wrote:
On Tue, 2005-03-01 at 14:33 -0500, Charles E Taylor IV wrote:
> On Tue, 1 Mar 2005 11:35:20 -0600
> David Hoffman <dhoffman2004(a)gmail.com> wrote:
>
> > The archives are sorted by subject line. Here's a quick example. The
> > two links below go to two DIFFERENT threads on the same archive site.
> > The only reason they were listed as different threads is because
> > "SOLVED" was added to the subject line. These links only lead to a
> > test message, but there are many other instances that I have found on
> > the same archive site that do the same thing. (And the same is true
> > for the redhat archive site).
> >
> > http://marc.theaimsgroup.com/?t=110930289600001&r=1&w=2
> > http://marc.theaimsgroup.com/?t=110931389000001&r=1&w=2
>
> ... but the official archives sorts this thread correctly. Isn't the
> issue really that the marc archive has broken threading?
>
> For example, see
>
> https://www.redhat.com/archives/fedora-list/2005-February/thread.html
>
> The "Test, please ignore" messages are sorted this way:
>
> # Test, Please ignore., Gustavo Seabra
> * Re: Test, Please ignore. [Solved], Gustavo Seabra
> o Re: Test, Please ignore. [Solved], jim lawrence
>
> (in other words, adding "solved" does NOT break the thread.
This is because the tool handling the threading is using the References:
headers in the email to do it, rather than the naive Subject:-based
method used by the MARC-archives.
Paul.
--
Paul Howarth <paul(a)city-fan.org>
2:40 p.m.
New subject: testing threading - please ignore [CHANGE]
Testing change in subject...
3:04 p.m.
New subject: testing threading - please ignore
On Tue, 01 Mar 2005 20:23:28 +0000, Paul Howarth <paul(a)city-fan.org> wrote:
This is because the tool handling the threading is using the
References:
headers in the email to do it, rather than the naive Subject:-based
method used by the MARC-archives.
That's probably what gmail is basing theirs on as well.
Looking at this thread and then the "changed" one... shows up as two
different threads in gmail.
10:10 p.m.
New subject: testing threading - please ignore
On Tue, 1 Mar 2005 15:04:40 -0600, David Hoffman <dhoffman2004(a)gmail.com> wrote:
On Tue, 01 Mar 2005 20:23:28 +0000, Paul Howarth
<paul(a)city-fan.org> wrote:
> This is because the tool handling the threading is using the References:
> headers in the email to do it, rather than the naive Subject:-based
> method used by the MARC-archives.
>
That's probably what gmail is basing theirs on as well.
Looking at this thread and then the "changed" one... shows up as two
different threads in gmail.
You are right, this is a known issue in GMail:
http://gmail.google.com/support/bin/answer.py?answer=8259&query=conve...
--
------------------------------------------------------------------
Gustavo Seabra Graduate Student
Chemistry Dept. Kansas State University
Registered Linux user number 381680
------------------------------------------------------------------
If at first you don't succeed...
...skydiving is not for you.
7:37 a.m.
New subject: testing threading - please ignore
On Tue, Mar 01, 2005 at 03:04:40PM -0600, David Hoffman wrote:
On Tue, 01 Mar 2005 20:23:28 +0000, Paul Howarth
<paul(a)city-fan.org> wrote:
> This is because the tool handling the threading is using the References:
> headers in the email to do it, rather than the naive Subject:-based
> method used by the MARC-archives.
>
That's probably what gmail is basing theirs on as well.
Looking at this thread and then the "changed" one... shows up as two
different threads in gmail.
Then gmail is broken, as I have suspected. I wonder what else is
broken about it? No, don't answer, I won't use gmail unless they fix
threading.
I use mutt, and it handles the threading correctly. I did not see a
new thread when the subject changed. But then the authors of mutt go
out of their way to be compliant with the relevant RFCs.
--
Charles Curley /"\ ASCII Ribbon Campaign
Looking for fine software \ / Respect for open standards
and/or writing? X No HTML/RTF in email
http://www.charlescurley.com / \ No M$ Word docs in email
Key fingerprint = CE5C 6645 A45A 64E4 94C0 809C FFF6 4C48 4ECD DFDB
2:22 p.m.
New subject: testing threading - please ignore
On Wed, 2 Mar 2005 06:37:25 -0700, Charles Curley
<charlescurley(a)charlescurley.com> wrote:
On Tue, Mar 01, 2005 at 03:04:40PM -0600, David Hoffman wrote:
> On Tue, 01 Mar 2005 20:23:28 +0000, Paul Howarth <paul(a)city-fan.org> wrote:
>
> > This is because the tool handling the threading is using the References:
> > headers in the email to do it, rather than the naive Subject:-based
> > method used by the MARC-archives.
> >
>
> That's probably what gmail is basing theirs on as well.
>
> Looking at this thread and then the "changed" one... shows up as two
> different threads in gmail.
Then gmail is broken, as I have suspected. I wonder what else is
broken about it? No, don't answer, I won't use gmail unless they fix
threading.
Again, this is a known issue in GMail. Look at:
http://gmail.google.com/support/bin/answer.py?answer=8259&query=conve...
They say they are 'working hard' to solve it, but they have been
saying that for a while now, and I don't see any changes yet.
--
------------------------------------------------------------------
Gustavo Seabra Graduate Student
Chemistry Dept. Kansas State University
Registered Linux user number 381680
------------------------------------------------------------------
If at first you don't succeed...
...skydiving is not for you.
10:51 a.m.
New subject: Fedora Core Support List Unofficial User's Guide (draft 2 - Duncan Lithgow))
On Tue, 1 Mar 2005 07:38:27 -0600, David Hoffman <dhoffman2004(a)gmail.com> wrote:
On Tue, 1 Mar 2005 01:12:35 -0600, Gustavo Seabra
<gustavo.seabra(a)gmail.com> wrote:
> Another thing that may be interesting is to suggest the person who
> made the original post to, when a solution to his problem is found,
> finish the discussion with a last post adding something like [SOLVED]
> to the subject line, and indicating /what/ exactly solved the problem.
> That should help the readers to know the problem was finally solved
> without even having to read the messages; helps the monthly
> statistics; helps *a lot* when searching the archives later.
Unfortunately, changing the subject lines breaks threading. It makes
it look like an entirely new thread. The archives, news readers, and
some mail programs (gmail) can sort messages into conversations based
on the subject line. If you change the subject line, then the "Solved"
portion of the message shows up as another thread.
I have been using Thunderbird ever since I installed FC3 here, and
never had this problem. Just changing the *subject* line always
preserved the thread. That is actually the reason people complain
about "stealing" the thread: if you just reply to an existing message
and then change the subject, most mail clients (TB included) will
somehow consider it still part of the previous thread, and keep it as
so. Although his can potentially cause confusion, this is a good
feature, if used right.
*However*, I have to admit. I recently moved to GMail, and noticed
that GMail doesn't seem to be intelligent enough in this case: If you
change the subject line, it creates a new "conversation". Anyways,
this is a GMail *bug*, not a feature. I still like to see the [SOLVED]
note inthe subject. If GMail creates another conversation from it,
this is something to take to GMail developers, because it's plain
*wrong*.
BTW, is there a "bugzilla" for GMail?
What might be better is to suggest NOT changing subject lines and to
know that if you happen to be looking at the archives, the end of the
thread may have a solution for you.
I think we could keep to only simple chages in the subject /line/, as
long as the message keeps the same /subject/ (general). Just don't
/steal/ the threads.
--
------------------------------------------------------------------
Gustavo Seabra Graduate Student
Chemistry Dept. Kansas State University
Registered Linux user number 381680
------------------------------------------------------------------
If at first you don't succeed...
...skydiving is not for you.
12:15 p.m.
New subject: Fedora Core Support List Unofficial User's Guide (draft 2 - Duncan Lithgow))
On Tue, 1 Mar 2005 10:51:11 -0600, Gustavo Seabra
<gustavo.seabra(a)gmail.com> wrote:
*However*, I have to admit. I recently moved to GMail, and noticed
that GMail doesn't seem to be intelligent enough in this case: If you
change the subject line, it creates a new "conversation". Anyways,
this is a GMail *bug*, not a feature. I still like to see the [SOLVED]
note inthe subject. If GMail creates another conversation from it,
this is something to take to GMail developers, because it's plain
*wrong*.
BTW, is there a "bugzilla" for GMail?
Sort of:
https://services.google.com/inquiry/gmail_bugs
I'm not sure this would be considered a bug. Gmail calls this a
"conversation" view as you said, not a threaded view. If you define a
conversation as a group of messages with the same subject, then this
is the right behavior. That said, I do find this annoying. Maybe we
could lobby for a "strict threading" option that does use the
reference headers instead of just the subject. If enough people
suggest it, maybe it will get done. Other than this annoyance, I find
Gmail's interface to be well suited to mailing lists.
Jonathan
2:40 p.m.
New subject: Fedora Core Support List Unofficial User's Guide (draft 2 - Duncan Lithgow))
On Wed, 2 Mar 2005 12:15:00 -0600, Jonathan Berry <berryja(a)gmail.com> wrote:
On Tue, 1 Mar 2005 10:51:11 -0600, Gustavo Seabra
<gustavo.seabra(a)gmail.com> wrote:
>
> BTW, is there a "bugzilla" for GMail?
Sort of:
https://services.google.com/inquiry/gmail_bugs
Been there. I think I already filed this same thing at least twice,
but I have no idea if anyone even read it :-(
I'm not sure this would be considered a bug. Gmail calls this a
"conversation" view as you said, not a threaded view. If you define a
conversation as a group of messages with the same subject, then this
is the right behavior. That said, I do find this annoying. Maybe we
could lobby for a "strict threading" option that does use the
reference headers instead of just the subject. If enough people
suggest it, maybe it will get done. Other than this annoyance, I find
Gmail's interface to be well suited to mailing lists.
Jonathan
I agree that, with enough suggestions, they *may* give this problem
some extra thought. I wonder if there would be a way to call other
users to file a similar report...
--
------------------------------------------------------------------
Gustavo Seabra Graduate Student
Chemistry Dept. Kansas State University
Registered Linux user number 381680
------------------------------------------------------------------
If at first you don't succeed...
...skydiving is not for you.
6:16 a.m.
New subject: Fedora Core Support List Unofficial User's Guide (draft 2 - Duncan Lithgow))
Below is a summary of the points raised so far since draft 2. I think it
would be a gesture of cooperative effort if someone other than me wrote
draft 3. Any takers?
If we cannot - as a community - create this document then we have no
place asking people to follow this communities guidelines. I suggest
that we repost draft three as a new thread so people who have started
ignoring this thread can see we are still working on it.
solidarity, Duncan
--
From Rahul Sundaram:
info command name
locate <stuff you want to know about>
rpm -qd <packagename>
fedora.redhat.com/docs
redhat.com/docs
fedoratracker.org
fedoraproject.org/extras
--
From Charles Curley:
You may also find useful
http://www.charlescurley.com/netiquette.html.
4.5. Trim irrelevant material. Why? It makes it easier to read your
reply and helps the reader to stay on subject.
On medium and high traffic lists (such as this one), many people decide
whether to read a message solely on the subject line. This is not
obvious to people who are new to mailing lists.
--
From Matt: (seconded Gustavo Seabra)
b) When you send in a new
topic, do not start by replying to an
existing message, but rather, start a new message to
"fedora-list(a)redhat.com". This keeps messages organized by thread, for
people who like to use threads (on high-volume mailing lists like this
one, threads can be a great convenience).
--
From beartooth:
... who *start* on gmane, and spare themselves
the detour through email.
Shouldn't the advice address them?
--
From Gustavo Seabra:
I think a monthly mail reminder would be
good.
Also, it could be kept in a web page, and a link to this page added in
the bottom of the messages, together with the "Fedora-list" things.
--
Adding or not adding [solved] - seems to be in dispute with no clear
preference.
12:04 p.m.
New subject: List Rules -- How about gmane?
On Fri, 25 Feb 2005 20:47:30 -0700, James McKenzie wrote:
Here is the first edition of the List Rules.
The first thing is that I, like you, are a regular member of the list
but have read through many messages about 'netequitte' within this list.
Just a couple of hints:
[...]
Many thanks, James, for a good start; strength to your arm.
Possible title might be "Advice: some ways to get your post read" -- long,
but it reads fast.
I've read every post in the whole thread as of right now, and don't see
the one thing I looked especially for : no one mentions gmane. I submit
that any such collocation of helpfulness, whatever you/we call it, ought
to.
The reason is that gmane makes it especially feasible, for those of us who
don't know squat about most of the discussion here, to pick out the topics
that we do have some hope of using -- without exposing the list to any
more extraneity than would appear anyway.
The reader I know best, for example, threw up both hands in despair, years
ago now, at the prospect of trying to pick out the usable parts of things
like the phoebe list or the shrike list -- and turned off the
subscriptions. I'd never have dared try Fedora in those days.
As it is, however, I have three machines running FC1, one with FC2, and
one with YDL4 -- all working, thanks in large part to the fact that gmane
carries this list and others like it.
By now, there must be some -- certainly including anyone I might advise --
who *start* on gmane, and spare themselves the detour through email.
Shouldn't the advice address them?
--
Beartooth Implacable, Linux Evangelist & Gadfly
neo-redneck, curmudgeonly codger with FC1&2, YDL4 -- & XP, alas!
Pine 4.62, Pan 0.14.2; Privoxy 3.0.1; Opera 7.54, Firefox 1.0
Bear in mind that I have little idea what I am talking about.
12:16 p.m.
New subject: List Rules -- How about gmane?
On Tue, 01 Mar 2005 13:04:55 -0500, beartooth <beartooth(a)adelphia.net> wrote:
On Fri, 25 Feb 2005 20:47:30 -0700, James McKenzie wrote:
> Here is the first edition of the List Rules.
>
> The first thing is that I, like you, are a regular member of the list
> but have read through many messages about 'netequitte' within this list.
>
> Just a couple of hints:
[...]
Many thanks, James, for a good start; strength to your arm.
Possible title might be "Advice: some ways to get your post read" -- long,
but it reads fast.
I've read every post in the whole thread as of right now, and don't see
the one thing I looked especially for : no one mentions gmane. I submit
that any such collocation of helpfulness, whatever you/we call it, ought
to.
The reason is that gmane makes it especially feasible, for those of us who
don't know squat about most of the discussion here, to pick out the topics
that we do have some hope of using -- without exposing the list to any
more extraneity than would appear anyway.
The reader I know best, for example, threw up both hands in despair, years
ago now, at the prospect of trying to pick out the usable parts of things
like the phoebe list or the shrike list -- and turned off the
subscriptions. I'd never have dared try Fedora in those days.
As it is, however, I have three machines running FC1, one with FC2, and
one with YDL4 -- all working, thanks in large part to the fact that gmane
carries this list and others like it.
By now, there must be some -- certainly including anyone I might advise --
who *start* on gmane, and spare themselves the detour through email.
Shouldn't the advice address them?
--
There was a discussion about moving from a listserver format to a news
format last month, and there were a bunch of people who were against
that because they simply don't like going to a news reader to look at
these messages.
That being said, gmane does give people the flexibility to decide if
they want to use it or not.
I don't think the issue is where or how you are going to read the
posts. The matter right now is trying to encourage people to look at
archives before posting questions, and posting their questions in a
matter that makes it easier to search for them later.
The most recent subject we have been discussing is the concept of
changing a subject line to indicate a resolution for a problem. While
that might work in a forum type environment, it still causes there to
be multiple threads resulting from the same issue. Even gmane breaks
threads like this sometimes.
--
David
Registered Linux User 383030 (since everyone else was doing it 8-)
-----------------------------------------------------------------------
There are only 10 kinds of people in this world,
those who understand binary, and those who don't.
3:45 p.m.
New subject: List Rules -- How about gmane?
On Tue, 01 Mar 2005 12:16:44 -0600, David Hoffman wrote:
There was a discussion about moving from a listserver format to a
news
format last month, and there were a bunch of people who were against
that because they simply don't like going to a news reader to look at
these messages.
That being said, gmane does give people the flexibility to decide if
they want to use it or not.
If any particular posters prefer email, more power to them; I never meant
to say otherwise. But there is a difference in that you may not get the
usual welcome message -- or not know to save it where you can find it.
[....]
The most recent subject we have been discussing is the concept of
changing a subject line to indicate a resolution for a problem. While
that might work in a forum type environment, it still causes there to
be multiple threads resulting from the same issue. Even gmane breaks
threads like this sometimes.
OK, that's news to me. I've certainly seen threads it didn't break, where
the post beginning with [SOLVED] really stands out; I'm sorry to hear
that the other kind happens. I wonder what determines which ....
--
Beartooth Implacable, Linux Evangelist & Gadfly
neo-redneck, curmudgeonly codger with FC1 & YDL 4.0
Pine 4.62, Pan 0.14.2; Privoxy 3.0.1; Opera 7.54, Firefox 1.0
Bear in mind that I have little idea what I am talking about.
6:32 p.m.
New subject: List Rules -- How about gmane?
On Tue, 01 Mar 2005 16:45:11 -0500, beartooth <beartooth(a)adelphia.net> wrote:
On Tue, 01 Mar 2005 12:16:44 -0600, David Hoffman wrote:
> There was a discussion about moving from a listserver format to a news
> format last month, and there were a bunch of people who were against
> that because they simply don't like going to a news reader to look at
> these messages.
>
> That being said, gmane does give people the flexibility to decide if
> they want to use it or not.
If any particular posters prefer email, more power to them; I never meant
to say otherwise. But there is a difference in that you may not get the
usual welcome message -- or not know to save it where you can find it.
[....]
> The most recent subject we have been discussing is the concept of
> changing a subject line to indicate a resolution for a problem. While
> that might work in a forum type environment, it still causes there to
> be multiple threads resulting from the same issue. Even gmane breaks
> threads like this sometimes.
OK, that's news to me. I've certainly seen threads it didn't break, where
the post beginning with [SOLVED] really stands out; I'm sorry to hear
that the other kind happens. I wonder what determines which ....
Earlier, someone kindly pointed me to several examples of threads on
GMANE that were intact, even with changed subject lines. I haven't
used GMANE regularly since I started using Gmail, about two months
now, but I do recall there being an issue at the time with some
threads becoming broken. That appears to be resolved now.
Gmail and MARC still seem to break threads though.
6993
days inactive
6998
days old
82 comments
28 participants
participants (28)
-
Beartooth -
Carroll Grigsby -
Charles Curley -
Charles E. "Rick" Taylor, IV -
Christofer C. Bell -
Craig White -
David Curry -
David Hoffman -
Duncan Lithgow -
Genes MailLists -
Gustavo Seabra -
Hacksaw -
Hodgins Family -
Ian P. Thomas -
James McKenzie -
jdow -
Jeff Kinz -
Jim Cornette -
Jonathan Berry -
Leonard Isham -
Matt Morgan -
Matthew Miller -
Michael A. Peters -
Michael Scottaline -
Paul Howarth -
Rahul Sundaram -
Stuart Sears -
thomas cameron