Goodbye F7

[Karl Larsen]

I must have too many special uses for my Linux. I went to F7 because 
of many nice things :-)
I got many things working and sent in 4 Bug reports none of which have 
been solved. I was just not able to live without the things I must have. 
So I am back to FC6 and will get a few things from F7 to here and be 
done with it :-(

Karl

Goodbye F7... Hello FC6 ...why not F8 test 1?

[Jim Cornette]

Karl Larsen wrote:
> I must have too many special uses for my Linux. I went to F7 because 
> of many nice things :-)
> I got many things working and sent in 4 Bug reports none of which have 
> been solved. I was just not able to live without the things I must have. 
> So I am back to FC6 and will get a few things from F7 to here and be 
> done with it :-(
>
> Karl

Fedora 8 test 1 is about to kick off. Are you sure you don't want to go 
forward instead of reverse?

Jim

Goodbye F7... Hello FC6 ...why not F8 test 1?

[Karl Larsen]

Jim Cornette wrote:
> Karl Larsen wrote:
> > I must have too many special uses for my Linux. I went to F7 
> > because of many nice things :-)
> > I got many things working and sent in 4 Bug reports none of which 
> > have been solved. I was just not able to live without the things I 
> > must have. So I am back to FC6 and will get a few things from F7 to 
> > here and be done with it :-(
> >
> > Karl
>
> Fedora 8 test 1 is about to kick off. Are you sure you don't want to 
> go forward instead of reverse?
>
> Jim

Hi Jim, its a real shame that my very special wants like gmfsk and a 
Palm backup are so important I need them. They do not work on F7. That 
said I will be glad to help with testing F8 when it is ready. I can load 
it and try things and report back here.

Goodbye F7... Hello FC6 ...why not F8 test 1?

[Jim Cornette]

Karl Larsen wrote:
> Jim Cornette wrote:
> > Karl Larsen wrote:
> > > I must have too many special uses for my Linux. I went to F7 
> > > because of many nice things :-)
> > > I got many things working and sent in 4 Bug reports none of which 
> > > have been solved. I was just not able to live without the things I 
> > > must have. So I am back to FC6 and will get a few things from F7 to 
> > > here and be done with it :-(
> > >
> > > Karl
> >
> > Fedora 8 test 1 is about to kick off. Are you sure you don't want to 
> > go forward instead of reverse?
> >
> > Jim
>
> Hi Jim, its a real shame that my very special wants like gmfsk and a 
> Palm backup are so important I need them. They do not work on F7. That 
> said I will be glad to help with testing F8 when it is ready. I can load 
> it and try things and report back here.

You'd think that if there was regression from FC6 to Fedora 7 for a 
particular program, the newer distribution would find out why the newer 
version does not work and fix it. Fedora 7 should have less breakage.

You might want to hold off a bit for Fedora 8 test 1. I am updating my 
laptop from F7 to F8 and a lot of problems currently exist. My mail for 
one thing does not work. (both Seamonkey and Thunderbird)

If you do decide to take the plunge into the development for F8, the 
list for problem discussion is the fedora-test-list. Responding with 
test release problems on this list usually gets a lot of people 
irritated since the list is geared to current released versions of 
Fedora and not the test versions.

Good luck getting your problems for the programs that you mentioned 
addressed so you can move up to F7.

Jim

Goodbye F7... Hello FC6 ...why not F8 test 1?

[Thomas TS]

Jim Cornette wrote:
> Karl Larsen wrote:
> > I must have too many special uses for my Linux. I went to F7 
> > because of many nice things :-)
> > I got many things working and sent in 4 Bug reports none of which 
> > have been solved. I was just not able to live without the things I 
> > must have. So I am back to FC6 and will get a few things from F7 to 
> > here and be done with it :-(
> >
> > Karl
>
> Fedora 8 test 1 is about to kick off. Are you sure you don't want to 
> go forward instead of reverse?

After a week of pain... moved back to FC6 and life is good again !!!

When 8 arrives, maybe i try the 7.

Goodbye F7... Hello FC6 ...why not F8 test 1?

[Jim Cornette]

On Fri, 2007-07-27 at 12:00 -0300, Thomas TS wrote:
> Jim Cornette wrote:
> > Fedora 8 test 1 is about to kick off. Are you sure you don't want to 
> > go forward instead of reverse?
>
> After a week of pain... moved back to FC6 and life is good again !!!

Well, things worked for me with F7. Now moving to the first test is full
of problems as of today.

Seamonkey, thunderbird do not work. The kernel does not shut off the
computer with power management. Those are just two problems that are
straight out broken.
> When 8 arrives, maybe i try the 7.

One release back might be best for stability. That is if the bugs in F7
are reported and fixed. Otherwise, the problem won't be known and still
present within later releases.

I understand the reality though regarding using earlier releases until
the settling.

Jim
>

Goodbye F7... Hello FC6 ...why not F8 test 1?

[Robin Laing]

Jim Cornette wrote:
> On Fri, 2007-07-27 at 12:00 -0300, Thomas TS wrote:
> > Jim Cornette wrote:
> > > Fedora 8 test 1 is about to kick off. Are you sure you don't want to 
> > > go forward instead of reverse?
> >
> > After a week of pain... moved back to FC6 and life is good again !!!
>
> Well, things worked for me with F7. Now moving to the first test is full
> of problems as of today.
>
> Seamonkey, thunderbird do not work. The kernel does not shut off the
> computer with power management. Those are just two problems that are
> straight out broken.
> > When 8 arrives, maybe i try the 7.
>
> One release back might be best for stability. That is if the bugs in F7
> are reported and fixed. Otherwise, the problem won't be known and still
> present within later releases.
>
> I understand the reality though regarding using earlier releases until
> the settling.
>
> Jim

I think the issues with F7 are related to the major changes in the 
kernel that are affecting different software applications in different 
way son different pieces of software.

Also, finding some issues with Bugzilla can be a pain for those that 
don't want to take the time to learn.  Of course if you have an issue 
that is slightly related to either the ATI or Nvidia video drivers, you 
will have to back out of the closed source driver just to submit a bug 
report.

I am frustrated with F7 and it has greatly delayed the upgrading of my 
other machines from FC4 which is working like a dream.

Yes, I submit bug reports if I can find out any details to submit.  I am 
also running into what seems to be a new issue every other day.

I would like to see F8 delayed or maybe F9 delayed until even the minor 
issues are resolved.  At least this would give a pretty clean base to 
work with F9 from.

At present, I cannot show off F7 as a replacement for Windows in any 
way.  Heck, it is even making me have some thoughts about Windows.

Goodbye F7... Hello FC6 ...why not F8 test 1?

[bruce]

hi...

to everyone who's having issues with fedora... you do realize that the
overall purpose of fedora, no matter how good/poor it might work is really
as front level leading edge testing... you get what you get... if you want a
full blown OS, you still need to pay, in order to get the bullet proof,
stability/support...

RHEL4/5 works quite well for 'most' situations... but it does cost, and it
lags the latest FC releases....

it is what it is.....

peace

-----Original Message-----
From: [e-mail]
[mailto:[e-mail]]On Behalf Of Robin Laing
Sent: Monday, July 30, 2007 9:06 AM
To: For users of Fedora
Subject: Re: Goodbye F7... Hello FC6 ...why not F8 test 1?

Jim Cornette wrote:
> On Fri, 2007-07-27 at 12:00 -0300, Thomas TS wrote:
> > Jim Cornette wrote:
> > > Fedora 8 test 1 is about to kick off. Are you sure you don't want to
> > > go forward instead of reverse?
> >
> > After a week of pain... moved back to FC6 and life is good again !!!
>
> Well, things worked for me with F7. Now moving to the first test is full
> of problems as of today.
>
> Seamonkey, thunderbird do not work. The kernel does not shut off the
> computer with power management. Those are just two problems that are
> straight out broken.
> > When 8 arrives, maybe i try the 7.
>
> One release back might be best for stability. That is if the bugs in F7
> are reported and fixed. Otherwise, the problem won't be known and still
> present within later releases.
>
> I understand the reality though regarding using earlier releases until
> the settling.
>
> Jim

I think the issues with F7 are related to the major changes in the
kernel that are affecting different software applications in different
way son different pieces of software.

Also, finding some issues with Bugzilla can be a pain for those that
don't want to take the time to learn.  Of course if you have an issue
that is slightly related to either the ATI or Nvidia video drivers, you
will have to back out of the closed source driver just to submit a bug
report.

I am frustrated with F7 and it has greatly delayed the upgrading of my
other machines from FC4 which is working like a dream.

Yes, I submit bug reports if I can find out any details to submit.  I am
also running into what seems to be a new issue every other day.

I would like to see F8 delayed or maybe F9 delayed until even the minor
issues are resolved.  At least this would give a pretty clean base to
work with F9 from.

At present, I cannot show off F7 as a replacement for Windows in any
way.  Heck, it is even making me have some thoughts about Windows.

--
Due to the move to Exchange Server,
    anything that is a priority, please phone.
Robin Laing

--
fedora-list mailing list
[e-mail]
To unsubscribe: https://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/fedora-list

Goodbye F7... Hello FC6 ...why not F8 test 1?

[Chris Jones]

> RHEL4/5 works quite well for 'most' situations... but it does cost, and it
> lags the latest FC releases....

You only need to pay if you want the support from Redhat. If you just 
what the stable distro, checkout one of the RHEL derived OSes, like 
centos or scientific linux - You get exactly the same stable RHEL OS at 
zero cost.

Chris

Goodbye F7... Hello FC6 ...why not F8 test 1?

[bruce]

chris...

you're right of course... but the reason i put the cost into the statement,
is that to really get the stability/security, you sometimes want to be able
to talk to a support person, which is what the cost actually gets you!!

peace.

-----Original Message-----
From: [e-mail]
[mailto:[e-mail]]On Behalf Of Chris Jones
Sent: Monday, July 30, 2007 9:24 AM
To: For users of Fedora
Subject: Re: Goodbye F7... Hello FC6 ...why not F8 test 1?
> RHEL4/5 works quite well for 'most' situations... but it does cost, and it
> lags the latest FC releases....

You only need to pay if you want the support from Redhat. If you just
what the stable distro, checkout one of the RHEL derived OSes, like
centos or scientific linux - You get exactly the same stable RHEL OS at
zero cost.

Chris

--
fedora-list mailing list
[e-mail]
To unsubscribe: https://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/fedora-list

Goodbye F7... Hello FC6 ...why not F8 test 1?

[Jim Cornette]

bruce wrote:
> chris...
>
> you're right of course... but the reason i put the cost into the statement,
> is that to really get the stability/security, you sometimes want to be able
> to talk to a support person, which is what the cost actually gets you!!
>
> peace.

I thought that the only advantage contributed to cost was better music 
while you were put on hold.

Goodbye F7... Hello FC6 ...why not F8 test 1?

[Jim Cornette]

Robin Laing wrote:
> I think the issues with F7 are related to the major changes in the 
> kernel that are affecting different software applications in different 
> ways on different pieces of software. (hardware?)

Fortunately I did not have trouble with anything with my hardware on 
either the desktop or laptop. The other server Fedora 7 Installations 
have not failed anything yet either. I had trouble with a couple of XP 
installations on the same hardware though regarding goofy and surprising 
failures for mostly hardware related issues.

I did have old computers in the past (A Packard Bell desktop) which 
eventually could not be upgraded and another old Toshiba Laptop that 
needed to stay behind due to hardware limitations. I guess new hardware 
could also work better with older versions compared to the newer versions.
> Also, finding some issues with Bugzilla can be a pain for those that 
> don't want to take the time to learn.  Of course if you have an issue 
> that is slightly related to either the ATI or Nvidia video drivers, you 
> will have to back out of the closed source driver just to submit a bug 
> report.

Bug reports, especially regarding X problems seem to be ignored in a lot 
of circumstances. Some of the reports are followed-up even if I forget 
all about the bug. Others are solved but the bug is not marked as a 
duplicate and the fix is not passed on. The hard disk conformance 
problem is a good recent example.
There has to be a more cohesive bug reporting tool than current bugzilla.
> I am frustrated with F7 and it has greatly delayed the upgrading of my 
> other machines from FC4 which is working like a dream.

It sounds like the long term spinoff distros which track Red Hat 
enterprise versions would fit you better for reliability and at least 
security upgrades for the system. I would not know enough to compile 
security updates and build source rpms from later distros.
> Yes, I submit bug reports if I can find out any details to submit.  I am 
> also running into what seems to be a new issue every other day.

Are you sure the Rawhide repo is not activated? - :-)
Seriously, how is it possible to run into a problem every other day, are 
you running MS Linux?
> I would like to see F8 delayed or maybe F9 delayed until even the minor 
> issues are resolved.  At least this would give a pretty clean base to 
> work with F9 from.

I'm for progressional updates with no version in particular. Fedora is 
snapshot based but at the same time capped like 2/3 of our oil wells in 
the US. I guess that is why I prefer venturing into Development when the 
new test phases commence. It might also be why most of my computer 
hardware and peripherals work throughout the release cycles.

Personally I think stopping release cycles would do more harm than good. 
I do think support for earlier distro versions would allow more 
stability, but programs and system hardware would probably stay dormant. 
  If they work as Goldilocks would have wanted it, fine! I just think it 
would mainly overburden the program maintainers and designers if in 
house programs.
> At present, I cannot show off F7 as a replacement for Windows in any 
> way.  Heck, it is even making me have some thoughts about Windows.

I have to admit that convincing people to use Linux vs. Windows is a 
hard thing to accomplish. People are unpredictable by me, but here are 
the basic concepts which hold people off from trying Linux.

- They don't use it at work. I will get confused.
- I can't play my games on Linux

Things that get users to make the switch:
- My computer won't boot windows, my grand daughter messed it up.

This happened to me today. The computer was setup to dual boot into 
Fedora or Windows. So she booted into Fedora and was ready to go. 
Previously this person would boot XP. Since the person is about 100 
miles away and I help with computer issues, she took the plunge. Fedora 
will probably be priority boot OS for that person for now on. I already 
got her accustomed to seamonkey and to a limited extent Openoffice.org 
for XP. Conversion should not be too difficult now.

Install Fedora as the default OS and install only a minimal MS limited 
system that came with the computer. The person will most likely just 
want the default Linux to load and only go to the MS bought with 
computer distro to run stuff which is not yet possible with Fedora.

Regarding MS products, I do not think it would be a good escape path.

Jim

[Dotan Cohen]

On 26/07/07, Karl Larsen  wrote:
> I must have too many special uses for my Linux. I went to F7 because
>
> of many nice things :-)
> I got many things working and sent in 4 Bug reports none of which have
> been solved. I was just not able to live without the things I must have.
> So I am back to FC6 and will get a few things from F7 to here and be
> done with it :-(
>
> Karl

Er, care to be a tad more specific? Bugzilla is great for reporting
bugs in the distro, but for fixing your problems, that's what the list
is for. One at a time, what doesn't work?

Dotan Cohen

http://lyricslist.com/
http://what-is-what.com/

[Globe Trotter]

--- Dotan Cohen  wrote:
> On 26/07/07, Karl Larsen  wrote:
> > I must have too many special uses for my Linux. I went to F7 because
> >
> > of many nice things :-)
> > I got many things working and sent in 4 Bug reports none of which have
> > been solved. I was just not able to live without the things I must have.
> > So I am back to FC6 and will get a few things from F7 to here and be
> > done with it :-(
> >
> > Karl
>
> Er, care to be a tad more specific? Bugzilla is great for reporting
> bugs in the distro, but for fixing your problems, that's what the list
> is for. One at a time, what doesn't work?
>
> Dotan Cohen
>
> http://lyricslist.com/
> http://what-is-what.com/

I second this one. There are slackers once in a while, but Bugzilla is great
for being on top of fixing things.

One of the reasons I stick to FC/F. Even though F is increasingly going the
Windoze route: back to my peeve: why can't we have a low-resources desktop for
F for the high-resources-challenged? The usual approach of the semi-bloated
gnome and lets say xfce does not work, since gnome-crap gets started up anyway.

Trotter.

____________________________________________________________________________________
Shape Yahoo! in your own image.  Join our Network Research Panel today!   http://surveylink.yahoo.com/gmrs/yahoo_panel_invite.asp?a=7

[Bob Staaf]

On Sat, 2007-07-28 at 07:51 -0700, Globe Trotter wrote:
> --- Dotan Cohen  wrote:

snip....
> One of the reasons I stick to FC/F. Even though F is increasingly going the
> Windoze route: back to my peeve: why can't we have a low-resources desktop for
> F for the high-resources-challenged? The usual approach of the semi-bloated
> gnome and lets say xfce does not work, since gnome-crap gets started up anyway.
>
> Trotter.

This is something I see on the Fedora lists and Forums as well as with
other distros.  People are expecting a single distro to be everything
for everyone.  I am a firm believer in the saying "jack of all trades,
master of none".  I would much rather see Fedora stick with one target
group of users with one focus in mind rather than trying to please
everyone with a zillion different spins.

I can understand Fedora loyalty and wanting to stick with Fedora and
make it do what you want to do but Linux is Linux and there are distros
out there that will do what you are asking.  If you are dead set on
Fedora than why not try and do your own re-spin?

Just my 2 cents...

Bob

[Globe Trotter]

> This is something I see on the Fedora lists and Forums as well as with
> other distros.  People are expecting a single distro to be everything
> for everyone.  I am a firm believer in the saying "jack of all trades,
> master of none".  I would much rather see Fedora stick with one target
> group of users with one focus in mind rather than trying to please
> everyone with a zillion different spins.

By your logic, Fedora should support Gnome or KDE but not both. Which do you
use? Maybe we should dump that?

But I agree with you that there should not be a billion features, but what is
the point of having two hogs? KDE or Gnome? Why not have one hog (the one that
you don't use perhaps) and one nimbler desktop (the one that I don't)?
> I can understand Fedora loyalty and wanting to stick with Fedora and
> make it do what you want to do but Linux is Linux and there are distros
> out there that will do what you are asking.  If you are dead set on
> Fedora than why not try and do your own re-spin?

Well, one could use xubuntu for one thing. Have you noticed how snappy that is,
btw? Compared with ubuntu or F, for that matter? (And I am not pitching for
XFCE, just keep an option on).

I just think that any good linux distribution should not lose sight of its core
base, which is people who believe that computers should compute and which
believes that efficiency matters. Remember what someone said in 1995: it does
not matter that the OS is a hog, because people will go and buy new hardware,
Of course, the kept media did not have the abililty to tell that monopolist
that a efficiently written software is as good for something with 4GB RAM
(unthinkable in those days, but is what I have) as it is for 256MB RAM.

I consider F a good Linux distribution.

Best wishes,
Trotter

____________________________________________________________________________________
Park yourself in front of a world of choices in alternative vehicles. Visit the Yahoo! Auto Green Center.
http://autos.yahoo.com/green_center/

[Dotan Cohen]

On 28/07/07, Globe Trotter  wrote:
> > This is something I see on the Fedora lists and Forums as well as with
> > other distros.  People are expecting a single distro to be everything
> > for everyone.  I am a firm believer in the saying "jack of all trades,
> > master of none".  I would much rather see Fedora stick with one target
> > group of users with one focus in mind rather than trying to please
> > everyone with a zillion different spins.
>
> By your logic, Fedora should support Gnome or KDE but not both. Which do you
> use? Maybe we should dump that?

Actually, he could install the server version. I don't think there's
and GUI there, just the CLI. Should be rather quick! And he could
still do his email in mutt, web in lynx, and even video in mPlayer!

Dotan Cohen

http://lyricslist.com/
http://what-is-what.com/

[Ashley Pritchard]

though I have Gnome & KDE both installed I am useing Enlightenment as my
primary desktop environment which is much lighter & not as much of a
resource hog that Gnome & KDE have become. The Repo for Enlightenment for F7
is here: http://sps.nus.edu.sg/~didierbe/

On 7/28/07, Dotan Cohen  wrote:
> On 28/07/07, Globe Trotter  wrote:
> > > This is something I see on the Fedora lists and Forums as well as with
> > > other distros.  People are expecting a single distro to be everything
> > > for everyone.  I am a firm believer in the saying "jack of all trades,
> > > master of none".  I would much rather see Fedora stick with one target
> > > group of users with one focus in mind rather than trying to please
> > > everyone with a zillion different spins.
> >
> > By your logic, Fedora should support Gnome or KDE but not both. Which do
>
> you
> > use? Maybe we should dump that?
>
> Actually, he could install the server version. I don't think there's
> and GUI there, just the CLI. Should be rather quick! And he could
> still do his email in mutt, web in lynx, and even video in mPlayer!
>
> Dotan Cohen
>
> http://lyricslist.com/
> http://what-is-what.com/
>
> --
> fedora-list mailing list
> [e-mail]
> To unsubscribe: https://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/fedora-list

[Bill Davidsen]

Bob Staaf wrote:
> On Sat, 2007-07-28 at 07:51 -0700, Globe Trotter wrote:
> > --- Dotan Cohen  wrote:
>
> snip....
> > One of the reasons I stick to FC/F. Even though F is increasingly going the
> > Windoze route: back to my peeve: why can't we have a low-resources desktop for
> > F for the high-resources-challenged? The usual approach of the semi-bloated
> > gnome and lets say xfce does not work, since gnome-crap gets started up anyway.
> >
> > Trotter.
>
> This is something I see on the Fedora lists and Forums as well as with
> other distros.  People are expecting a single distro to be everything
> for everyone.  I am a firm believer in the saying "jack of all trades,
> master of none".  I would much rather see Fedora stick with one target
> group of users with one focus in mind rather than trying to please
> everyone with a zillion different spins.

The problem with not having core and extras is that it's now harder to 
roll a small install.

There's a minimal install on the "base" part of the install menu, but 
it's at the end of what you see if you start at the top, as most people 
do at least once ;-)

Suggestion: Have a menu which just sets the defaults and allows a custom 
install to tune them. The obvious categories would be minimal, small 
server, large server, desktop, everything. All that would set is 
defaults, and the small systems would have no X, followed by xfce, etc. 
The small server would not include the admin tools, the large would, etc.

If someone would like to talk to me about this, I can put at least some 
time in, I've used UNIX since V7, so I have perspective if nothing else.;-)
> I can understand Fedora loyalty and wanting to stick with Fedora and
> make it do what you want to do but Linux is Linux and there are distros
> out there that will do what you are asking.  If you are dead set on
> Fedora than why not try and do your own re-spin?

I just don't think it's needed, if it were a little easier to get the 
initial tune I think the building of custom distribution could be a list 
of packages to install after the base.

[Timothy Murphy]

Bill Davidsen wrote:
> if it were a little easier to get the
> initial tune I think the building of custom distribution could be a list
> of packages to install after the base.

Isn't that exactly what you get if you choose the "Custom" option?
If you choose none of the package groups (as given by "yum grouplist")
you do get a minimal installation, don't you?

[Les Mikesell]

Karl Larsen wrote:
> I must have too many special uses for my Linux. I went to F7 because 
> of many nice things :-)
> I got many things working and sent in 4 Bug reports none of which have 
> been solved. I was just not able to live without the things I must have. 
> So I am back to FC6 and will get a few things from F7 to here and be 
> done with it :-(

If you don't want to live on the edge of development, you might like 
running CentOS5 (very much like FC6 but with 7 years planned 
bug/security update support) and then pull in any newer things you need 
from other repositories like EPEL http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/EPEL or 
build them yourself knowing you won't be forced to do it over ever 18 
months.  Perhaps you could even support your builds in the EPEL 
repository if they would be of interest to others.