I've noticed this only a few times, and it doesn't always happen, but there isn't enough data to form a pattern.
Fedora Workstation 28 kernel varies but mainly I use Rawhide kernels to catch bugs
[ 0.000000] DMI: HP HP Spectre Notebook/81A0, BIOS F.40 02/26/2018
Battery is 100% charged. Computer is powered off via GNOME power button icon thingy. Unplug power cord. Go to bed. Morning I plug power back into the laptop and boot, and the battery icon indicates charging, click on that icon and it reports it's charging the batter, will take 40 minutes until full (80%).
So how the heck is the battery losing 20% when the laptop is powered off? I have in the past couple weeks left the laptop overnight in suspend to RAM mode, unplugged from power, and in the morning it's 90% charged, which makes some sense I guess even though that still seems like a lot of loss. But 20% powered off makes no sense.
The first time this happened I was suspicious of my own memory: OK maybe I left it in suspend even though I'm 99% certain I powered it off, but which is more likely, that I'm being spacey or that the laptop discharged 20% overnight while powered off? But this time I am certain it was powered off.
Anyway, it's been charging a bit before I ran this:
[chris@f28h ~]$ upower -i /org/freedesktop/UPower/devices/battery_BAT1 native-path: BAT1 vendor: Hewlett-Packard model: PABAS0241231 serial: 41167 power supply: yes updated: Thu 17 May 2018 08:42:18 AM MDT (45 seconds ago) has history: yes has statistics: yes battery present: yes rechargeable: yes state: charging warning-level: none energy: 27.412 Wh energy-empty: 0 Wh energy-full: 31.5161 Wh energy-full-design: 38.115 Wh energy-rate: 6.7067 W voltage: 8.743 V time to full: 36.7 minutes percentage: 86% capacity: 82.6869% technology: lithium-ion icon-name: 'battery-full-charging-symbolic' History (rate): 1526568138 6.707 charging
[chris@f28h ~]$
Pretty weird.
On 2018-05-17 at 08:52:08 Chris Murphy wrote:
I've noticed this only a few times, and it doesn't always happen, but there isn't enough data to form a pattern.
Fedora Workstation 28 kernel varies but mainly I use Rawhide kernels to catch bugs
[ 0.000000] DMI: HP HP Spectre Notebook/81A0, BIOS F.40 02/26/2018
Battery is 100% charged. Computer is powered off via GNOME power button icon thingy. Unplug power cord. Go to bed. Morning I plug power back into the laptop and boot, and the battery icon indicates charging, click on that icon and it reports it's charging the batter, will take 40 minutes until full (80%).
So how the heck is the battery losing 20% when the laptop is powered off? I have in the past couple weeks left the laptop overnight in suspend to RAM mode, unplugged from power, and in the morning it's 90% charged, which makes some sense I guess even though that still seems like a lot of loss. But 20% powered off makes no sense.
The first time this happened I was suspicious of my own memory: OK maybe I left it in suspend even though I'm 99% certain I powered it off, but which is more likely, that I'm being spacey or that the laptop discharged 20% overnight while powered off? But this time I am certain it was powered off.
Anyway, it's been charging a bit before I ran this:
[chris@f28h ~]$ upower -i /org/freedesktop/UPower/devices/battery_BAT1 native-path: BAT1 vendor: Hewlett-Packard model: PABAS0241231 serial: 41167 power supply: yes updated: Thu 17 May 2018 08:42:18 AM MDT (45 seconds ago) has history: yes has statistics: yes battery present: yes rechargeable: yes state: charging warning-level: none energy: 27.412 Wh energy-empty: 0 Wh energy-full: 31.5161 Wh energy-full-design: 38.115 Wh energy-rate: 6.7067 W voltage: 8.743 V time to full: 36.7 minutes percentage: 86% capacity: 82.6869% technology: lithium-ion icon-name: 'battery-full-charging-symbolic' History (rate): 1526568138 6.707 charging
[chris@f28h ~]$
Pretty weird.
What happens if you also remove the battery during the power off period?
-- Regards, Erik P. Olsen
On Thu, 17 May 2018 17:07:55 +0200 Erik P. Olsen wrote:
What happens if you also remove the battery during the power off period?
Yea, I don't know if laptop makers are copying Android now, but I've got a Samsung Android camera which you can tell to "power off", but it wants to be "helpful" and boot really fast so it doesn't really go all the way off unless you pop the battery out and back in.
On 2018-05-17 at 12:41:49 Tom Horsley wrote:
On Thu, 17 May 2018 17:07:55 +0200 Erik P. Olsen wrote:
What happens if you also remove the battery during the power off period?
Yea, I don't know if laptop makers are copying Android now, but I've got a Samsung Android camera which you can tell to "power off", but it wants to be "helpful" and boot really fast so it doesn't really go all the way off unless you pop the battery out and back in.
The battery might be sick.
-- Regards, Erik P. Olsen
On Thu, May 17, 2018 at 9:07 AM, Erik P. Olsen epodata@gmail.com wrote:
On 2018-05-17 at 08:52:08 Chris Murphy wrote:
I've noticed this only a few times, and it doesn't always happen, but there isn't enough data to form a pattern.
Fedora Workstation 28 kernel varies but mainly I use Rawhide kernels to catch bugs
[ 0.000000] DMI: HP HP Spectre Notebook/81A0, BIOS F.40 02/26/2018
Battery is 100% charged. Computer is powered off via GNOME power button icon thingy. Unplug power cord. Go to bed. Morning I plug power back into the laptop and boot, and the battery icon indicates charging, click on that icon and it reports it's charging the batter, will take 40 minutes until full (80%).
So how the heck is the battery losing 20% when the laptop is powered off? I have in the past couple weeks left the laptop overnight in suspend to RAM mode, unplugged from power, and in the morning it's 90% charged, which makes some sense I guess even though that still seems like a lot of loss. But 20% powered off makes no sense.
The first time this happened I was suspicious of my own memory: OK maybe I left it in suspend even though I'm 99% certain I powered it off, but which is more likely, that I'm being spacey or that the laptop discharged 20% overnight while powered off? But this time I am certain it was powered off.
Anyway, it's been charging a bit before I ran this:
[chris@f28h ~]$ upower -i /org/freedesktop/UPower/devices/battery_BAT1 native-path: BAT1 vendor: Hewlett-Packard model: PABAS0241231 serial: 41167 power supply: yes updated: Thu 17 May 2018 08:42:18 AM MDT (45 seconds ago) has history: yes has statistics: yes battery present: yes rechargeable: yes state: charging warning-level: none energy: 27.412 Wh energy-empty: 0 Wh energy-full: 31.5161 Wh energy-full-design: 38.115 Wh energy-rate: 6.7067 W voltage: 8.743 V time to full: 36.7 minutes percentage: 86% capacity: 82.6869% technology: lithium-ion icon-name: 'battery-full-charging-symbolic' History (rate): 1526568138 6.707 charging
[chris@f28h ~]$
Pretty weird.
What happens if you also remove the battery during the power off period?
It cannot be removed.
Check this out. After fully charging from this morning?
[chris@f28h ~]$ upower -i /org/freedesktop/UPower/devices/battery_BAT1 native-path: BAT1 vendor: Hewlett-Packard model: PABAS0241231 serial: 41167 power supply: yes updated: Thu 17 May 2018 04:59:54 PM MDT (14 seconds ago) has history: yes has statistics: yes battery present: yes rechargeable: yes state: fully-charged warning-level: none energy: 29.1522 Wh energy-empty: 0 Wh energy-full: 29.1522 Wh energy-full-design: 38.115 Wh energy-rate: 0 W voltage: 8.671 V percentage: 100% capacity: 76.4848% technology: lithium-ion icon-name: 'battery-full-charged-symbolic'
[chris@f28h ~]$
How does capacity go from 82.68% this morning to 76.48% this afternoon? This laptop is ~18 months old.
[root@f28h ~]# cat /sys/class/power_supply/BAT1/cycle_count 0
That's obviously bogus. I'd say 75% of the time I'm working on power, the other 25% or less of the time it's running on battery. It gets battery usage once a week or so.
Chris Murphy
On Thu, May 17, 2018 at 05:08:42PM -0600, Chris Murphy wrote:
Check this out. After fully charging from this morning?
[chris@f28h ~]$ upower -i /org/freedesktop/UPower/devices/battery_BAT1 native-path: BAT1 vendor: Hewlett-Packard model: PABAS0241231 serial: 41167 power supply: yes updated: Thu 17 May 2018 04:59:54 PM MDT (14 seconds ago) has history: yes has statistics: yes battery present: yes rechargeable: yes state: fully-charged warning-level: none energy: 29.1522 Wh energy-empty: 0 Wh energy-full: 29.1522 Wh energy-full-design: 38.115 Wh energy-rate: 0 W voltage: 8.671 V percentage: 100% capacity: 76.4848% technology: lithium-ion icon-name: 'battery-full-charged-symbolic'
[chris@f28h ~]$
How does capacity go from 82.68% this morning to 76.48% this afternoon? This laptop is ~18 months old.
Doesn't make sense, unless this morning it was "percentage" that was 82.68, not "capacity". (I've certainly misread things like that, and this stuff is hard to understand because there are no explanations given.)
[root@f28h ~]# cat /sys/class/power_supply/BAT1/cycle_count 0
That's obviously bogus. I'd say 75% of the time I'm working on power, the other 25% or less of the time it's running on battery. It gets battery usage once a week or so.
I think what that means is that the battery design was such that when new the battery would hold 38.115 Wh, but it has now degraded so that it only holds 29.1522 Wh.
if you divide 29.1522/38.115 you get 0.764848, hence the "capacity" now that it has aged a year and a half, is 76.4848% of the original 38.115.
You'll notice that "capacity" is 100%, which means it's fully charged for its current place in the battery lifetime curve, i.e., 29.1522 Wh.
Lithium Ion batteries age like that, its normal. Eventually you get fed up with it and buy a new battery or a new laptop (or phone or whatever gizmo we're talking about). The very reason why after a lot of customer furor, Apple agreed to replace iphone batteries cheaply rather than raking all those customers of the coals of overly-priced replacement batteries.
On Thu, May 17, 2018 at 6:00 PM, Fred Smith fredex@fcshome.stoneham.ma.us wrote:
On Thu, May 17, 2018 at 05:08:42PM -0600, Chris Murphy wrote:
Check this out. After fully charging from this morning?
[chris@f28h ~]$ upower -i /org/freedesktop/UPower/devices/battery_BAT1 native-path: BAT1 vendor: Hewlett-Packard model: PABAS0241231 serial: 41167 power supply: yes updated: Thu 17 May 2018 04:59:54 PM MDT (14 seconds ago) has history: yes has statistics: yes battery present: yes rechargeable: yes state: fully-charged warning-level: none energy: 29.1522 Wh energy-empty: 0 Wh energy-full: 29.1522 Wh energy-full-design: 38.115 Wh energy-rate: 0 W voltage: 8.671 V percentage: 100% capacity: 76.4848% technology: lithium-ion icon-name: 'battery-full-charged-symbolic'
[chris@f28h ~]$
How does capacity go from 82.68% this morning to 76.48% this afternoon? This laptop is ~18 months old.
Doesn't make sense, unless this morning it was "percentage" that was 82.68, not "capacity". (I've certainly misread things like that, and this stuff is hard to understand because there are no explanations given.)
[root@f28h ~]# cat /sys/class/power_supply/BAT1/cycle_count 0
That's obviously bogus. I'd say 75% of the time I'm working on power, the other 25% or less of the time it's running on battery. It gets battery usage once a week or so.
I think what that means is that the battery design was such that when new the battery would hold 38.115 Wh, but it has now degraded so that it only holds 29.1522 Wh.
if you divide 29.1522/38.115 you get 0.764848, hence the "capacity" now that it has aged a year and a half, is 76.4848% of the original 38.115.
You'll notice that "capacity" is 100%, which means it's fully charged for its current place in the battery lifetime curve, i.e., 29.1522 Wh.
Lithium Ion batteries age like that, its normal. Eventually you get fed up with it and buy a new battery or a new laptop (or phone or whatever gizmo we're talking about). The very reason why after a lot of customer furor, Apple agreed to replace iphone batteries cheaply rather than raking all those customers of the coals of overly-priced replacement batteries.
First posting for this thread is from this morning:
energy-full: 31.5161 Wh energy-full-design: 38.115 Wh ... percentage: 86% capacity: 82.6869%
And this afternoon.
energy-full: 29.1522 Wh energy-full-design: 38.115 Wh ... percentage: 100% capacity: 76.4848%
Somehow energy-full has changed quite a bit in just 1/2 a day.
On Thu, May 17, 2018 at 06:21:07PM -0600, Chris Murphy wrote:
On Thu, May 17, 2018 at 6:00 PM, Fred Smith fredex@fcshome.stoneham.ma.us wrote:
On Thu, May 17, 2018 at 05:08:42PM -0600, Chris Murphy wrote:
Check this out. After fully charging from this morning?
[chris@f28h ~]$ upower -i /org/freedesktop/UPower/devices/battery_BAT1 native-path: BAT1 vendor: Hewlett-Packard model: PABAS0241231 serial: 41167 power supply: yes updated: Thu 17 May 2018 04:59:54 PM MDT (14 seconds ago) has history: yes has statistics: yes battery present: yes rechargeable: yes state: fully-charged warning-level: none energy: 29.1522 Wh energy-empty: 0 Wh energy-full: 29.1522 Wh energy-full-design: 38.115 Wh energy-rate: 0 W voltage: 8.671 V percentage: 100% capacity: 76.4848% technology: lithium-ion icon-name: 'battery-full-charged-symbolic'
[chris@f28h ~]$
How does capacity go from 82.68% this morning to 76.48% this afternoon? This laptop is ~18 months old.
Doesn't make sense, unless this morning it was "percentage" that was 82.68, not "capacity". (I've certainly misread things like that, and this stuff is hard to understand because there are no explanations given.)
[root@f28h ~]# cat /sys/class/power_supply/BAT1/cycle_count 0
That's obviously bogus. I'd say 75% of the time I'm working on power, the other 25% or less of the time it's running on battery. It gets battery usage once a week or so.
I think what that means is that the battery design was such that when new the battery would hold 38.115 Wh, but it has now degraded so that it only holds 29.1522 Wh.
if you divide 29.1522/38.115 you get 0.764848, hence the "capacity" now that it has aged a year and a half, is 76.4848% of the original 38.115.
You'll notice that "capacity" is 100%, which means it's fully charged for its current place in the battery lifetime curve, i.e., 29.1522 Wh.
Lithium Ion batteries age like that, its normal. Eventually you get fed up with it and buy a new battery or a new laptop (or phone or whatever gizmo we're talking about). The very reason why after a lot of customer furor, Apple agreed to replace iphone batteries cheaply rather than raking all those customers of the coals of overly-priced replacement batteries.
First posting for this thread is from this morning:
energy-full: 31.5161 Wh energy-full-design: 38.115 Wh... percentage: 86% capacity: 82.6869%
And this afternoon.
energy-full: 29.1522 Wh energy-full-design: 38.115 Wh... percentage: 100% capacity: 76.4848%
Somehow energy-full has changed quite a bit in just 1/2 a day.
my guess is it jumps in discrete "quanta", at least as reported, rather than microscopic amounts. but I haven't watched mine closely enough to see.
On Thu, May 17, 2018 at 6:21 PM, Chris Murphy lists@colorremedies.com wrote:
On Thu, May 17, 2018 at 6:00 PM, Fred Smith fredex@fcshome.stoneham.ma.us wrote:
On Thu, May 17, 2018 at 05:08:42PM -0600, Chris Murphy wrote:
Check this out. After fully charging from this morning?
[chris@f28h ~]$ upower -i /org/freedesktop/UPower/devices/battery_BAT1 native-path: BAT1 vendor: Hewlett-Packard model: PABAS0241231 serial: 41167 power supply: yes updated: Thu 17 May 2018 04:59:54 PM MDT (14 seconds ago) has history: yes has statistics: yes battery present: yes rechargeable: yes state: fully-charged warning-level: none energy: 29.1522 Wh energy-empty: 0 Wh energy-full: 29.1522 Wh energy-full-design: 38.115 Wh energy-rate: 0 W voltage: 8.671 V percentage: 100% capacity: 76.4848% technology: lithium-ion icon-name: 'battery-full-charged-symbolic'
[chris@f28h ~]$
How does capacity go from 82.68% this morning to 76.48% this afternoon? This laptop is ~18 months old.
Doesn't make sense, unless this morning it was "percentage" that was 82.68, not "capacity". (I've certainly misread things like that, and this stuff is hard to understand because there are no explanations given.)
[root@f28h ~]# cat /sys/class/power_supply/BAT1/cycle_count 0
That's obviously bogus. I'd say 75% of the time I'm working on power, the other 25% or less of the time it's running on battery. It gets battery usage once a week or so.
I think what that means is that the battery design was such that when new the battery would hold 38.115 Wh, but it has now degraded so that it only holds 29.1522 Wh.
if you divide 29.1522/38.115 you get 0.764848, hence the "capacity" now that it has aged a year and a half, is 76.4848% of the original 38.115.
You'll notice that "capacity" is 100%, which means it's fully charged for its current place in the battery lifetime curve, i.e., 29.1522 Wh.
Lithium Ion batteries age like that, its normal. Eventually you get fed up with it and buy a new battery or a new laptop (or phone or whatever gizmo we're talking about). The very reason why after a lot of customer furor, Apple agreed to replace iphone batteries cheaply rather than raking all those customers of the coals of overly-priced replacement batteries.
First posting for this thread is from this morning:
energy-full: 31.5161 Wh energy-full-design: 38.115 Wh... percentage: 86% capacity: 82.6869%
And this afternoon.
energy-full: 29.1522 Wh energy-full-design: 38.115 Wh... percentage: 100% capacity: 76.4848%
Somehow energy-full has changed quite a bit in just 1/2 a day.
And this morning, again powered off and unplugged overnight.
energy-full: 27.2041 Wh energy-full-design: 38.115 Wh
I'm gonna use it in battery all day and let it discharge entirely and charge it from that state, and see if any of this changes.
state: fully-charged warning-level: none energy: 27.7816 Wh energy-empty: 0 Wh energy-full: 27.7816 Wh energy-full-design: 38.115 Wh energy-rate: 0 W voltage: 8.648 V percentage: 100% capacity: 72.8889% technology: lithium-ion
energy-full did bounce back ~0.5, but basically in one day the energy-full/capacity% dropped nearly 10%. Sounds like a sick battery or something.
Chris Murphy
Sick or worn out.
On 18 May 2018 at 23:14, Chris Murphy lists@colorremedies.com wrote:
state: fully-charged warning-level: none energy: 27.7816 Wh energy-empty: 0 Wh energy-full: 27.7816 Wh energy-full-design: 38.115 Wh energy-rate: 0 W voltage: 8.648 V percentage: 100% capacity: 72.8889% technology: lithium-ionenergy-full did bounce back ~0.5, but basically in one day the energy-full/capacity% dropped nearly 10%. Sounds like a sick battery or something.
Chris Murphy _______________________________________________ users mailing list -- users@lists.fedoraproject.org To unsubscribe send an email to users-leave@lists.fedoraproject.org Fedora Code of Conduct: https://getfedora.org/code-of-conduct.html List Guidelines: https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Mailing_list_guidelines List Archives: https://lists.fedoraproject.org/archives/list/users@lists. fedoraproject.org/message/5LDIDTOKRHQRZ2Y2W5PLE4AKOYK3QQNK/
On Fri, May 18, 2018 at 04:14:44PM -0600, Chris Murphy wrote:
state: fully-charged warning-level: none energy: 27.7816 Wh energy-empty: 0 Wh energy-full: 27.7816 Wh energy-full-design: 38.115 Wh energy-rate: 0 W voltage: 8.648 V percentage: 100% capacity: 72.8889% technology: lithium-ionenergy-full did bounce back ~0.5, but basically in one day the energy-full/capacity% dropped nearly 10%. Sounds like a sick battery or something.
I'd try retraining the battery for longer run-time until empty: I described the procedure to do that a few weeks ago:
https://lists.fedoraproject.org/archives/list/users@lists.fedoraproject.org/...
HTH, and good luck! Wolfgang
On 05/21/2018 09:06 AM, Wolfgang Pfeiffer wrote:
I'd try retraining the battery for longer run-time until empty:
Depleting the battery fully does not extend the run-time of the battery. It will sometimes re-calibrate the battery controller and improve its estimates, but it does reduce the battery's ability to hold a charge.
https://arstechnica.com/gadgets/2014/04/ask-ars-the-best-way-to-use-a-lithiu...
The guidelines quoted are also a bit dated. Modern charge controllers do a lot of control of the battery conditions based on temperature. If you look at your battery, you will see that there are 4 contacts. two are the charge current and two are to a temperature sensor. The charge controller monitors both current and voltage during charge, and temperature is used to adjust the charge current.
In addition, when you are plugged in, if the equipment designer chose the appropriate charge controller, the battery is essentially disconnected from the load during charging. This allows charging to proceed with the appropriate control of the current, voltage and temperature. In essence the charge controller incorporates the switching to control when the battery is used vs the line for the load.
Other things are incorporated into the battery management that includes switching control for alternate voltages in some cases and max discharge setting.
Many of these charge controllers are propriatary, so you may not find the full information on the ones you can find in your laptop or cellphone, and many of the "modules" don't include the advanced features or have them turned off or disconnected due to the complexity of wiring and understanding the settings.
All of this boils down to the fact that modern battery usage is much more complex than just charge/discharge cycles and depth of discharge.
On Mon, 2018-05-21 at 20:56 -0700, Gordon Messmer wrote:
On 05/21/2018 09:06 AM, Wolfgang Pfeiffer wrote:
I'd try retraining the battery for longer run-time until empty:
Depleting the battery fully does not extend the run-time of the battery. It will sometimes re-calibrate the battery controller and improve its estimates, but it does reduce the battery's ability to hold a charge.
https://arstechnica.com/gadgets/2014/04/ask-ars-the-best-way-to-use-a -lithium-ion-battery-redux/ _______________________________________________ users mailing list -- users@lists.fedoraproject.org To unsubscribe send an email to users-leave@lists.fedoraproject.org Fedora Code of Conduct: https://getfedora.org/code-of-conduct.html List Guidelines: https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Mailing_list_guidelin es List Archives: https://lists.fedoraproject.org/archives/list/users@li sts.fedoraproject.org/message/OU2GRNDH5TX5QUX7J6AQRPYRGPAX74AT/
Howard Howell, Gordon Messmer:
To both of you thanks a lot for the insight - I'm not a pro when it comes to battery chemistry/technology. So I'm definitely grateful for information in that regard.
For the sake of brevity, as a response, only a few lines:
My knowledge about batteries only comes from using and maintaining them. I had extremely good experiences with a cellphone lio-on battery that I drained every 2 weeks or so for about seven years (starting 2009). Only after these many years the battery started having a slightly smaller run-time capability. It wasn't even broken at the time I replaced it with a new one: it simply lost charge a little earlier than in the beginning when I used it ..
From what I now know is that it does not seem to be a big problem to *occasionally* re-calibrate li-on batteries. Even the arstechnica page from 2014 only seems to advise against re-calibration "all the time". Nevertheless: being careful to not re-calibrate every few weeks seems to be a good idea to me now. My previously linked (and in this thread mentioned) post from a few weeks ago was probably a little too optimistic: to advise there against *frequent* re-calibrating would have been a good idea.
Again: Thanks!
Regards, Wolfgang
-
Chris Murphy -
Erik P. Olsen -
Fred Smith -
Gordon Messmer -
Howard Howell -
Silvia Sánchez -
Tom Horsley -
Wolfgang Pfeiffer