I'm voting for Cinnamon, since the developer of compiz isn't interested in keeping it going. But maybe if MATE was the default for Fedora he'd change his mind? Or someone else would take over?
Hugh
On 11/21/2013 05:10 PM, Hugh Caley wrote:
I'm voting for Cinnamon, since the developer of compiz isn't interested in keeping it going. But maybe if MATE was the default for Fedora he'd change his mind? Or someone else would take over?
Hugh
-- *Hugh Caley Software Developer, Rocket Aldon Rocket Software* 6001 Shellmound St. Ste. 600 · Emeryville, CA 94608 · USA · Tel:+1.510.285.8542 Email:hcaley@rocketsoftware.com Web:http://aldon.rocketsoftware.com
Aren't all of these DE's available for Fedora?....I guess you can just install the environment of you choice! I know I have...I happen to like Gnome,...but I also like MATE,,,,,XFCE....and Cinnamon!!
EGO II
Hi
On Thu, Nov 21, 2013 at 5:10 PM, Hugh Caley wrote:
I'm voting for Cinnamon, since the developer of compiz isn't interested in keeping it going. But maybe if MATE was the default for Fedora he'd change his mind? Or someone else would take over?
You know what you prefer and it is available in the repo. It shouldn't matter much to you what the default is.
Rahul
On Thu, Nov 21, 2013 at 7:05 PM, Rahul Sundaram metherid@gmail.com wrote:
Hi
On Thu, Nov 21, 2013 at 5:10 PM, Hugh Caley wrote:
I'm voting for Cinnamon, since the developer of compiz isn't interested in keeping it going. But maybe if MATE was the default for Fedora he'd change his mind? Or someone else would take over?
You know what you prefer and it is available in the repo. It shouldn't matter much to you what the default is.
Why shouldn't it matter to him? Who should it matter to?
John
On 11/22/2013 07:02 AM, Roger wrote:
Setting aside the fact that users list is hardly the place to influence the choice of defaults and it is entirely offtopic to the purpose of this list, the idea that users drive the defaults of Fedora doesn't seem to match reality. If you do want to present a good argument you think is worthy of consideration, do so via devel list. Hint: I can't stand X, so you should pick Y because it matches my preferences won't work.
I agree that this isn't really the place to influence the choice of defaults, but it is entirely the place for users to form consensus. If you try to talk about this on devel you're open to getting called a power-user and trying to impose your view on the hapless users. If you try to talk about it here you're open to not getting heard. Which is why I'd encourage people to look at the spins to see if any fit their needs better.
I could not agree more. I happen to like gnome 3. Roger
I would have to second that, I also like the Gnome DE, and use it daily, to me....it just "makes sense". But that's the beauty of Linux....it's all about choices!
EGO II
HI
On Thu, Nov 21, 2013 at 9:16 PM, inode0 wrote:
Why shouldn't it matter to him? Who should it matter to?
I already indicated why it shouldn't matter to him because what he prefers is already in the repository and he can switch to it regardless of the defaults. Among users, it might matter more to people who aren't aware of the choices.
Rahul
On Thu, Nov 21, 2013 at 11:06 PM, Rahul Sundaram metherid@gmail.com wrote:
HI
On Thu, Nov 21, 2013 at 9:16 PM, inode0 wrote:
Why shouldn't it matter to him? Who should it matter to?
I already indicated why it shouldn't matter to him because what he prefers is already in the repository and he can switch to it regardless of the defaults. Among users, it might matter more to people who aren't aware of the choices.
That really makes no sense. Neither part of it. The fact that someone knows about options available has nothing to do with whether he/she should care about what is the default in the distribution and users who don't even know what the choices are surely can't have much of an opinion about the matter.
Users can care about the distribution and have opinions about how it should be presented. And those creating the distribution should pay attention to them.
John
Hi
On Fri, Nov 22, 2013 at 12:23 AM, inode0 wrote:
That really makes no sense. Neither part of it. The fact that someone knows about options available has nothing to do with whether he/she should care about what is the default in the distribution and users who don't even know what the choices are surely can't have much of an opinion about the matter.
It appears you misunderstood what I said or perhaps I was answering a question different from what you wanted to know. What I was trying to convey is that If I am as an user unaware of other desktop environments, the defaults impact my experience a lot more than if I already know of the choices and have picked something that matches my preferences. The moment I pick something else, I have satisfied my need and the argument about defaults should really be considered in a more objective way than just as an expression of my preferences
Users can care about the distribution and have opinions about how it
should be presented. And those creating the distribution should pay attention to them.
Setting aside the fact that users list is hardly the place to influence the choice of defaults and it is entirely offtopic to the purpose of this list, the idea that users drive the defaults of Fedora doesn't seem to match reality. If you do want to present a good argument you think is worthy of consideration, do so via devel list. Hint: I can't stand X, so you should pick Y because it matches my preferences won't work.
Rahul
Allegedly, on or about 22 November 2013, Rahul Sundaram sent:
What I was trying to convey is that If I am as an user unaware of other desktop environments, the defaults impact my experience a lot more than if I already know of the choices and have picked something that matches my preferences. The moment I pick something else, I have satisfied my need and the argument about defaults should really be considered in a more objective way than just as an expression of my preferences
I'm of the opinion that the computer should work, as much as possible, out of the box. It shouldn't require high end graphics cards, and special drivers that we don't have (whether because you need to get them from an external repo, or that they just don't exist). The simpler windowing systems ought to be the defaults, and the more convoluted ones a deliberate choice for those who want to tart things up, and are prepared to go through the nightmares of trying to get 3D graphics acceleration to work.
And speaking of fancying things up beyond practicality. Can we have a better bootloader than GRUB2? GRUB 1 was always a small bit of a pain to configure, but far less worse than LILO. GRUB 2 requires programming to customise, not just a slight tweak of one config file. My current bugbear is that it always loads some old kernel, rather than the latest, because it sorts them in a peculiar order. Top of the list isn't the latest, and picking number whatever as default isn't going to work after the next kernel update. I'm going to have to hand re-organise the grub2.cfg file after each time a kernel is updated, to get it to work sensibly.
On 22 November 2013 05:23, inode0 inode0@gmail.com wrote:
On Thu, Nov 21, 2013 at 11:06 PM, Rahul Sundaram metherid@gmail.com wrote:
HI
On Thu, Nov 21, 2013 at 9:16 PM, inode0 wrote:
Why shouldn't it matter to him? Who should it matter to?
I already indicated why it shouldn't matter to him because what he prefers is already in the repository and he can switch to it regardless of the defaults. Among users, it might matter more to people who aren't aware of the choices.
That really makes no sense. Neither part of it. The fact that someone knows about options available has nothing to do with whether he/she should care about what is the default in the distribution and users who don't even know what the choices are surely can't have much of an opinion about the matter.
http://spins.fedoraproject.org/ http://spins.fedoraproject.org/kde/ http://spins.fedoraproject.org/xfce/ And, just to push it, http://spins.fedoraproject.org/jam-kde/ (Music creation oriented, KDE based).
Rather than arguing about defaults it's maybe time for people to vote with their feet. There has been for quite some time a view that the default doesn't need changing because it's better to offer multiple options, that has perhaps given Gnome an easy ride as the default. And Fedora is now the gnome-centric distribution. People might start taking notice when the spins begin to overtake the official release in popularity.
On 22 November 2013 05:55, Rahul Sundaram metherid@gmail.com wrote:
Hi
On Fri, Nov 22, 2013 at 12:23 AM, inode0 wrote:
Users can care about the distribution and have opinions about how it should be presented. And those creating the distribution should pay attention to them.
Setting aside the fact that users list is hardly the place to influence the choice of defaults and it is entirely offtopic to the purpose of this list, the idea that users drive the defaults of Fedora doesn't seem to match reality. If you do want to present a good argument you think is worthy of consideration, do so via devel list. Hint: I can't stand X, so you should pick Y because it matches my preferences won't work.
I agree that this isn't really the place to influence the choice of defaults, but it is entirely the place for users to form consensus. If you try to talk about this on devel you're open to getting called a power-user and trying to impose your view on the hapless users. If you try to talk about it here you're open to not getting heard. Which is why I'd encourage people to look at the spins to see if any fit their needs better.
Setting aside the fact that users list is hardly the place to influence the choice of defaults and it is entirely offtopic to the purpose of this list, the idea that users drive the defaults of Fedora doesn't seem to match reality. If you do want to present a good argument you think is worthy of consideration, do so via devel list. Hint: I can't stand X, so you should pick Y because it matches my preferences won't work.
I agree that this isn't really the place to influence the choice of defaults, but it is entirely the place for users to form consensus. If you try to talk about this on devel you're open to getting called a power-user and trying to impose your view on the hapless users. If you try to talk about it here you're open to not getting heard. Which is why I'd encourage people to look at the spins to see if any fit their needs better.
I could not agree more. I happen to like gnome 3. Roger
On 11/22/2013 03:23 PM, Rahul Sundaram wrote:
HI
On Fri, Nov 22, 2013 at 6:41 AM, Ian Malone wrote:
I agree that this isn't really the place to influence the choice of defaults, but it is entirely the place for users to form consensus. If you try to talk about this on devel you're open to getting called a power-user and trying to impose your view on the hapless users. If you try to talk about it here you're open to not getting heard. Which is why I'd encourage people to look at the spins to see if any fit their needs better.I am very skeptical that users here can really form any sort of consensus. There seems to a wide variety of strong preferences. However trying out spins and deciding for yourself what you might want is indeed a good idea. Note that there are several desktop environments and window managers that don't have their own dedicated spins however.
Rahul
Which ones would that be?....just out of curiosity. I mean...
EGO II
On 11/22/2013 08:35 PM, Rahul Sundaram wrote:
Hi
On Fri, Nov 22, 2013 at 8:24 AM, Eddie G. O'Connor Jr. wrote:
Which ones would that be?....just out of curiosity. I mean...
Enlightenment for example
Rahul
I had forgot about that one!.....well for my own experience with Fedora, I jumped ship with Windows when Fedora 13 was coming out, and I took to it like a fish in water, I didn't have ANY experience with Linux, and whule for me it was easy to move around in Gnome...truthfully I had to do complete re-installs about SEVEN times!....but I learned, and researched....and read articles online, and asked questions and got insulted a few times.. :o) and then when they switched Gnome to it's current state?...I was pretty upset, then that turned into curiosity, then that turned into bewilderment, then acceptance and finally into gratification! I learned a lot working with Fedora, and even though there are other distros I tinker with from time to time, Fedora is my "main" go-to-for-daily-work-and-entertainment machine. I'm pretty much hooked on Gnome and I won't be leaving Fedora anytime soon for any other version of Linux. I only wish I knew how to "code" so that I could contribute in some way, but alas,....I'm still struggling with the Terminal and some commands (there's too many dang-blasted commands and switches!..grrrr!) but I'll just keep chugging along..and who knows?...maybe if I get curious enough..I might actually go to school and find some classes on C++ / C#.
On 11/22/2013 07:54 PM, Joe Zeff wrote:
On 11/22/2013 04:29 PM, Bill Davidsen wrote:
This is a VERY good point which I had overlooked, the hardware requirements of GNOME are much higher that XFCE (and I believe MATE) and represent choice which is very likely to frustrate potential converts.
That's especially true if you consider that many people are installing Linux on older computers, especially laptops, so as to get some more use out of computers that aren't up to running the latest versions of Windows. If they don't know about the various DEs and/or spins, they may just look at the requirements for Fedora with Gnome, see that they don't have the hardware to run it properly and give up.
Maybe what we need is a "beginner's spin" that gives you a choice of DE, but grays out any choices that your system can't handle. It would probably have to be based on the full DVD installation, but with a specially modified version of Anaconda that checks your CPU, RAM, video and so on, to make sure that it offers you the correct choices.
Hmmmm....now this sounds like a good idea....but what would be considered "beginner" level?.....inability to install a distro?.....no skills at the CLI?.....ignorance of the different DE's?....LOL!
EGO II
On 11/21/2013 10:00 PM, Eddie G. O'Connor Jr. wrote:
On 11/22/2013 07:02 AM, Roger wrote:
Setting aside the fact that users list is hardly the place to influence the choice of defaults and it is entirely offtopic to the purpose of this list, the idea that users drive the defaults of Fedora doesn't seem to match reality. If you do want to present a good argument you think is worthy of consideration, do so via devel list. Hint: I can't stand X, so you should pick Y because it matches my preferences won't work.
I agree that this isn't really the place to influence the choice of defaults, but it is entirely the place for users to form consensus. If you try to talk about this on devel you're open to getting called a power-user and trying to impose your view on the hapless users. If you try to talk about it here you're open to not getting heard. Which is why I'd encourage people to look at the spins to see if any fit their needs better.
I could not agree more. I happen to like gnome 3. Roger
I would have to second that, I also like the Gnome DE, and use it daily, to me....it just "makes sense". But that's the beauty of Linux....it's all about choices!
EGO II
Come Fedora 20, I'm doing a complete install rather than an update and will try Gnome 3 again. I can no longer tell if stuff that's odd is carry forward from earlier Fedora versions. If I'm unhappy, I'll restore my XFCE settings.
On Fri, Nov 22, 2013 at 8:12 AM, Steven Stern < subscribed-lists@sterndata.com> wrote:
Come Fedora 20, I'm doing a complete install rather than an update and will try Gnome 3 again. I can no longer tell if stuff that's odd is carry forward from earlier Fedora versions. If I'm unhappy, I'll restore my XFCE settings.
I have both GNOME and Xfce on my F19 system. It's easy enough to carry both.
HI
On Fri, Nov 22, 2013 at 6:41 AM, Ian Malone wrote:
I agree that this isn't really the place to influence the choice of defaults, but it is entirely the place for users to form consensus. If you try to talk about this on devel you're open to getting called a power-user and trying to impose your view on the hapless users. If you try to talk about it here you're open to not getting heard. Which is why I'd encourage people to look at the spins to see if any fit their needs better.
I am very skeptical that users here can really form any sort of consensus. There seems to a wide variety of strong preferences. However trying out spins and deciding for yourself what you might want is indeed a good idea. Note that there are several desktop environments and window managers that don't have their own dedicated spins however.
Rahul
On Fri, Nov 22, 2013 at 12:23 PM, Rahul Sundaram metherid@gmail.com wrote:
I am very skeptical that users here can really form any sort of consensus. There seems to a wide variety of strong preferences. However trying out spins and deciding for yourself what you might want is indeed a good idea. Note that there are several desktop environments and window managers that don't have their own dedicated spins however.
There is a MATE-Compiz spin, I just found out from https://spins.fedoraproject.org/.
I don't know if there are plans for a Cinnamon spin, but that seems to be the "missing piece," from what is trending at the moment.
-- Steven Rosenberg http://stevenrosenberg.net/blog http://blogs.dailynews.com/click stevenhrosenberg@gmail.com steven@stevenrosenberg.net
On 11/22/2013 01:57 PM, Steven Rosenberg wrote:
On Fri, Nov 22, 2013 at 8:12 AM, Steven Stern <subscribed-lists@sterndata.com mailto:subscribed-lists@sterndata.com> wrote:
Come Fedora 20, I'm doing a complete install rather than an update and will try Gnome 3 again. I can no longer tell if stuff that's odd is carry forward from earlier Fedora versions. If I'm unhappy, I'll restore my XFCE settings.I have both GNOME and Xfce on my F19 system. It's easy enough to carry both.
I do that now, but this system has been upgraded from F16 through 19 and I've been tweaking and tweaking the Gnome settings. Who knows what I've broken?
On 11/22/2013 01:20 PM, Steven Stern wrote:
I do that now, but this system has been upgraded from F16 through 19 and I've been tweaking and tweaking the Gnome settings. Who knows what I've broken?
The odds are, nothing. If you had broken something, Gnome wouldn't be working properly.
FWIW, I'm absolutely in love with Gnome3. Best thing ever happened to UI.
That said, it would be nice indeed if users had a choice during installation, something simple like 3 screenshots to choose from.
On 22 November 2013 21:53, Joe Zeff joe@zeff.us wrote:
On 11/22/2013 01:20 PM, Steven Stern wrote:
I do that now, but this system has been upgraded from F16 through 19 and I've been tweaking and tweaking the Gnome settings. Who knows what I've broken?
The odds are, nothing. If you had broken something, Gnome wouldn't be working properly.
-- users mailing list users@lists.fedoraproject.org To unsubscribe or change subscription options: https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/users Fedora Code of Conduct: http://fedoraproject.org/code-of-conduct Guidelines: http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Mailing_list_guidelines Have a question? Ask away: http://ask.fedoraproject.org
On Fri, Nov 22, 2013 at 7:10 PM, Sanne Grinovero wrote:
FWIW, I'm absolutely in love with Gnome3. Best thing ever happened to UI.
That said, it would be nice indeed if users had a choice during installation, something simple like 3 screenshots to choose from.
There are around a dozen choices here - GNOME (Shell and Classic), KDE, Xfce, MATE, LXDE, Sugar, GNU Step, Cinnamon, Enlightenment (both 17 and 16) and so on. It is hardly going to be simple to present 3 screenshots. The DVD image does have a few of them but it really is a waste of space to include all of them. Just install it from the repository or download the specific spin you want
Rahul
Tim wrote:
Allegedly, on or about 22 November 2013, Rahul Sundaram sent:
What I was trying to convey is that If I am as an user unaware of other desktop environments, the defaults impact my experience a lot more than if I already know of the choices and have picked something that matches my preferences. The moment I pick something else, I have satisfied my need and the argument about defaults should really be considered in a more objective way than just as an expression of my preferences
I'm of the opinion that the computer should work, as much as possible, out of the box. It shouldn't require high end graphics cards, and special drivers that we don't have (whether because you need to get them from an external repo, or that they just don't exist). The simpler windowing systems ought to be the defaults, and the more convoluted ones a deliberate choice for those who want to tart things up, and are prepared to go through the nightmares of trying to get 3D graphics acceleration to work.
This is a VERY good point which I had overlooked, the hardware requirements of GNOME are much higher that XFCE (and I believe MATE) and represent choice which is very likely to frustrate potential converts.
Let me make another point. MATE or XFCE are close enough to Windows < 8 that almost anyone can use them. And from what I've seen, a lot of Win8 users are running in a similar UI, indicating others don't like Win8. The point is that no matter what other computer you have used, GNOME3 is not like that. There is a big learning curve before you know to hover here, and use ALT there, and do all the other stuff which just has to be learned. That makes a good case in my mind for choosing a default which is likely to work and be somewhat familiar.
And speaking of fancying things up beyond practicality. Can we have a better bootloader than GRUB2? GRUB 1 was always a small bit of a pain to configure, but far less worse than LILO. GRUB 2 requires programming to customise, not just a slight tweak of one config file. My current bugbear is that it always loads some old kernel, rather than the latest, because it sorts them in a peculiar order. Top of the list isn't the latest, and picking number whatever as default isn't going to work after the next kernel update. I'm going to have to hand re-organise the grub2.cfg file after each time a kernel is updated, to get it to work sensibly.
Why in hell is there no "default" line saying what you want, or is there somewhere and I haven't stumbled on it because a kernel update doesn't set that?
On Sat, 2013-11-23 at 00:10 +0000, Sanne Grinovero wrote:
FWIW, I'm absolutely in love with Gnome3. Best thing ever happened to UI.
That said, it would be nice indeed if users had a choice during installation, something simple like 3 screenshots to choose from.
On 22 November 2013 21:53, Joe Zeff joe@zeff.us wrote:
On 11/22/2013 01:20 PM, Steven Stern wrote:
I do that now, but this system has been upgraded from F16 through 19 and I've been tweaking and tweaking the Gnome settings. Who knows what I've broken?
The odds are, nothing. If you had broken something, Gnome wouldn't be working properly.
-- users mailing list users@lists.fedoraproject.org To unsubscribe or change subscription options: https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/users Fedora Code of Conduct: http://fedoraproject.org/code-of-conduct Guidelines: http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Mailing_list_guidelines Have a question? Ask away: http://ask.fedoraproject.org
My wife felt the same way. The easy answer was to install the MATE desktop. And then setup her login to default to mate. With Linux, the window manager is separate from the OS, so it is no big deal. There are several different desktops out there, so you can chose one that suits you.
On 11/22/2013 04:29 PM, Bill Davidsen wrote:
This is a VERY good point which I had overlooked, the hardware requirements of GNOME are much higher that XFCE (and I believe MATE) and represent choice which is very likely to frustrate potential converts.
That's especially true if you consider that many people are installing Linux on older computers, especially laptops, so as to get some more use out of computers that aren't up to running the latest versions of Windows. If they don't know about the various DEs and/or spins, they may just look at the requirements for Fedora with Gnome, see that they don't have the hardware to run it properly and give up.
Maybe what we need is a "beginner's spin" that gives you a choice of DE, but grays out any choices that your system can't handle. It would probably have to be based on the full DVD installation, but with a specially modified version of Anaconda that checks your CPU, RAM, video and so on, to make sure that it offers you the correct choices.
HI
On Fri, Nov 22, 2013 at 7:54 PM, Joe Zeff wrote:
That's especially true if you consider that many people are installing Linux on older computers, especially laptops, so as to get some more use out of computers that aren't up to running the latest versions of Windows. If they don't know about the various DEs and/or spins, they may just look at the requirements for Fedora with Gnome, see that they don't have the hardware to run it properly and give up.
The requirements for the installer is more than any desktop environment in Fedora making Fedora not really a good choice for lower end systems anyway.
Rahul
Maybe what we need is a "beginner's spin" that gives you a choice of DE, but grays out any choices that your system can't handle. It would probably have to be based on the full DVD installation, but with a specially modified version of Anaconda that checks your CPU, RAM, video and so on, to make sure that it offers you the correct choices.
Hmmmm....now this sounds like a good idea....but what would be considered "beginner" level?.....inability to install a distro?.....no skills at the CLI?.....ignorance of the different DE's?....LOL!
Think about a Windows install - all of the above -- that's your answer.
On 23 November 2013 00:10, Sanne Grinovero sanne.grinovero@gmail.com wrote:
FWIW, I'm absolutely in love with Gnome3. Best thing ever happened to UI.
I'm generally desktop agnostic, because I usually don't care as long as the DE stays behind whatever it is I actually want to run. Compiz was the only DE where you might have started the computer just to look at the DE. My problem with gnome shell wasn't the look, I tried it for more than a release cycle, it was more the abuse you had to put up with if you suggested there was anything less than perfect or room for improvement. I can't even remember what the last (minor) issue I had with gnome shell was, I do remember it was the responses I got that persuaded me to change. The few problems I've encountered with KDE, I've filed bugs, they've gotten fixed.
On Fri, 2013-11-22 at 19:58 -0500, Rahul Sundaram wrote:
The requirements for the installer is more than any desktop environment in Fedora making Fedora not really a good choice for lower end systems anyway.
That is nuts.
On Thu, 21 Nov 2013 14:10:33 -0800 Hugh Caley hcaley@rocketsoftware.com wrote:
I'm voting for Cinnamon, since the developer of compiz isn't interested in keeping it going. But maybe if MATE was the default for Fedora he'd change his mind? Or someone else would take over?
Hugh
Unless your a Developer you may be out of luck for future needs: https://lists.fedoraproject.org/pipermail/desktop/2013-November/008366.html
Future Directions: https://lists.fedoraproject.org/pipermail/desktop/2013-November/008253.html
On 11/22/2013 05:11 PM, Ian Malone wrote:
On 22 November 2013 05:55, Rahul Sundaram metherid@gmail.com wrote:
Hi
On Fri, Nov 22, 2013 at 12:23 AM, inode0 wrote:
Users can care about the distribution and have opinions about how it should be presented. And those creating the distribution should pay attention to them.
Setting aside the fact that users list is hardly the place to influence the choice of defaults and it is entirely offtopic to the purpose of this list, the idea that users drive the defaults of Fedora doesn't seem to match reality. If you do want to present a good argument you think is worthy of consideration, do so via devel list. Hint: I can't stand X, so you should pick Y because it matches my preferences won't work.
I agree that this isn't really the place to influence the choice of defaults, but it is entirely the place for users to form consensus. If you try to talk about this on devel you're open to getting called a power-user and trying to impose your view on the hapless users. If you try to talk about it here you're open to not getting heard. Which is why I'd encourage people to look at the spins to see if any fit their needs better.
http://fedoraproject.org/en/get-fedora-options
or particularly
http://spins.fedoraproject.org/xfce/
may help.
On 21.11.2013 23:10, Hugh Caley wrote:
I'm voting for Cinnamon, since the developer of compiz isn't interested in keeping it going. But maybe if MATE was the default for Fedora he'd change his mind? Or someone else would take over?
Cut loose, footloose, kick off the Sunday shoes Ooh-wee Marie shake it, shake it for me Woah, Milo come on, come on let's go Lose your blues, everybody cut footloose
http://ic.pics.livejournal.com/mmaslano/22711161/1251/1251_original.png Bee awesome.!
poma
On Fri, Nov 22, 2013 at 09:13:08 -0500, "Eddie G. O'Connor Jr." eoconnor25@gmail.com wrote:
other version of Linux. I only wish I knew how to "code" so that I could contribute in some way, but alas,....I'm still struggling with the Terminal and some commands (there's too many dang-blasted commands and switches!..grrrr!) but I'll just keep chugging along..and who knows?...maybe if I get curious enough..I might actually go to school and find some classes on C++ / C#.
There are several ways you can help with coding. QA needs testers. Writing documentation is helpful. Ambassodars can use help. Answering questions for people on mailing lists and IRC is helpful.
On Fri, Nov 22, 2013 at 19:58:01 -0500, Rahul Sundaram metherid@gmail.com wrote:
The requirements for the installer is more than any desktop environment in Fedora making Fedora not really a good choice for lower end systems anyway.
It's not quite that bad. I was able to do a succesful install of f20 (games spin which is based on XFCE) on a laptop with 500 MiB of memory. Gnome also needs a more powerful video card than some other desktops. So while I agree that Fedora isn't the best distro for low resource machines, there is still an area where it is usable on the lighter weight desktops, but not gnome.
Joe Zeff wrote:
On 11/22/2013 04:29 PM, Bill Davidsen wrote:
This is a VERY good point which I had overlooked, the hardware requirements of GNOME are much higher that XFCE (and I believe MATE) and represent choice which is very likely to frustrate potential converts.
That's especially true if you consider that many people are installing Linux on older computers, especially laptops, so as to get some more use out of computers that aren't up to running the latest versions of Windows. If they don't know about the various DEs and/or spins, they may just look at the requirements for Fedora with Gnome, see that they don't have the hardware to run it properly and give up.
Maybe what we need is a "beginner's spin" that gives you a choice of DE, but grays out any choices that your system can't handle. It would probably have to be based on the full DVD installation, but with a specially modified version of Anaconda that checks your CPU, RAM, video and so on, to make sure that it offers you the correct choices.
That is a brilliant idea, but why a beginners spin? Why shouldn't a major choice like UI deserve a screen at startup. And values which are unlikely to work could be identified so the installer is warned, giving some hope that at least one functional choice will be made. In my opinion every install should add one more choice to the boot menu, "boot in VESA (simple) graphics mode." That way people who who have video cards which aren't supported by the open source video drivers can have a way to use their computers.
Hopefully some features council will actually pick up these ideas and we can see them in FC20 or FC21.
Rahul Sundaram wrote:
HI
On Fri, Nov 22, 2013 at 7:54 PM, Joe Zeff wrote:
That's especially true if you consider that many people are installing Linux on older computers, especially laptops, so as to get some more use out of computers that aren't up to running the latest versions of Windows. If they don't know about the various DEs and/or spins, they may just look at the requirements for Fedora with Gnome, see that they don't have the hardware to run it properly and give up.The requirements for the installer is more than any desktop environment in Fedora making Fedora not really a good choice for lower end systems anyway.
Other than GNOME not running well on low end video, I haven't seen any issues with the installer through FC18, anyway. The upgrade process seems troubled (see my other thread) but the install has been good to me, all the way down to a laptop running a Pentium-M setup (which I love for its 17in screen and perfect touch on the keyboard). I have four ATOM system, none of which cost more than $300 to buy or build, and they work fine on 18, will try 19 one of these days. Not for gaming, and probably heavy graphics, rendering, etc, but for mail and browsing normal websites I have no issues. One handles two security cameras and a 8TB RAID array for backups, another is a firewall, etc.
Caution noted, I'm aware that there are limitations, but a lot of us have modest graphics needs and if XFCE will install, that's all we need.
Rahul Sundaram wrote:
On Fri, Nov 22, 2013 at 7:10 PM, Sanne Grinovero wrote:
FWIW, I'm absolutely in love with Gnome3. Best thing ever happened to UI. That said, it would be nice indeed if users had a choice during installation, something simple like 3 screenshots to choose from.There are around a dozen choices here - GNOME (Shell and Classic), KDE, Xfce, MATE, LXDE, Sugar, GNU Step, Cinnamon, Enlightenment (both 17 and 16) and so on. It is hardly going to be simple to present 3 screenshots. The DVD image does have a few of them but it really is a waste of space to include all of them. Just install it from the repository or download the specific spin you want
Perhaps this has been stated badly, the issue is that if a user doesn't know about the other options, or has small hardware, he can't "Just install" at all. If there were just a screen to offer any one of the light weight UI choices and warn that GNOME is not optimal for the hardware, that would do it. Only a few k of screen code, don't need more UI options that are present now, but even the two or three now present would be fine with thumbnails. Just default to something which will work on the system being installed, I'm certainly not asking for more than that. I admit that if MATE was ready for serious use when I went to XFCE I would have used that, but it's hardly work changing at this point, for my usage practices.
Sorry if it sounded as if we ere asking for more than warning the user if GNOME won't work.
On 11/22/2013 01:05 AM, Rahul Sundaram wrote:
You know what you prefer and it is available in the repo. It shouldn't matter much to you what the default is.
I don't think that's entirely true. Those of us who use a lot of systems and support others need a reasonably sane set of defaults. We don't want to be in a Windows 8 situation where you can't do anything with a machine before you've spent 20 minutes installing add-ons and changing defaults.
Andrew.
On 26 November 2013 09:44, Andrew Haley aph@redhat.com wrote:
On 11/22/2013 01:05 AM, Rahul Sundaram wrote:
You know what you prefer and it is available in the repo. It shouldn't matter much to you what the default is.
I don't think that's entirely true. Those of us who use a lot of systems and support others need a reasonably sane set of defaults. We don't want to be in a Windows 8 situation where you can't do anything with a machine before you've spent 20 minutes installing add-ons and changing defaults.
If you support a lot of others (like an office environment) and you have a number of adjustments you need to make it may be worth looking at kickstarts. If it's just a friends and family scope then spins may be worth looking at. http://spins.fedoraproject.org/
On 11/26/2013 04:44 AM, Andrew Haley wrote:
On 11/22/2013 01:05 AM, Rahul Sundaram wrote:
You know what you prefer and it is available in the repo. It shouldn't matter much to you what the default is.
I don't think that's entirely true. Those of us who use a lot of systems and support others need a reasonably sane set of defaults. We don't want to be in a Windows 8 situation where you can't do anything with a machine before you've spent 20 minutes installing add-ons and changing defaults.
Andrew.
I agree with this as long as it doesn't remove "choice" from the menu, if all of a sudden i have no choice but to use, say...LXDE (which I'm not too fond of!) then I see us heading down the same path as Windows. but maybe if there was an "extra" step in the installer?....like just before you do the reboot into the "first boot" screen?...offering you ONLY like maybe 6 DE's? (Cinnamon / XFCE / LXDE / Gnome / MATE / KDE...this way you can install as many machines with the same "default" settings with no juggling act to make sure they're all the same....sort of a "standard' without the standard overhead!..
EGO II
On Fri, 2013-11-22 at 00:06 -0500, Rahul Sundaram wrote:
HI
On Thu, Nov 21, 2013 at 9:16 PM, inode0 wrote:
Why shouldn't it matter to him? Who should it matter to?I already indicated why it shouldn't matter to him because what he prefers is already in the repository and he can switch to it regardless of the defaults. Among users, it might matter more to people who aren't aware of the choices.
I'm with Rahul on this. Now that I can choose MATE as my desktop at install-time, I could care less what other desktops are on the list. I have a good friend who feels the same way about GNOME3, and he kids me about my preference for "old GNOME 2.x". As long as Fedora supports a wide selection of desktops equally, everybody wins.
--Doc Savage Fairview Heights, IL
Eddie G. O'Connor Jr. wrote:
On 11/26/2013 04:44 AM, Andrew Haley wrote:
On 11/22/2013 01:05 AM, Rahul Sundaram wrote:
You know what you prefer and it is available in the repo. It shouldn't matter much to you what the default is.
I don't think that's entirely true. Those of us who use a lot of systems and support others need a reasonably sane set of defaults. We don't want to be in a Windows 8 situation where you can't do anything with a machine before you've spent 20 minutes installing add-ons and changing defaults.
Andrew.
I agree with this as long as it doesn't remove "choice" from the menu, if all of a sudden i have no choice but to use, say...LXDE (which I'm not too fond of!) then I see us heading down the same path as Windows. but maybe if there was an "extra" step in the installer?....like just before you do the reboot into the "first boot" screen?...offering you ONLY like maybe 6 DE's? (Cinnamon / XFCE / LXDE / Gnome / MATE / KDE...this way you can install as many machines with the same "default" settings with no juggling act to make sure they're all the same....sort of a "standard' without the standard overhead!..
The issue is not to offer many, but to offer AT LEAST ONE which runs on dumb video, so people who can't run gnome have an easy option and will be able to install another DE without having to try to get GNOME classic without knowing GNOME, or install from command line. And there should be a WARNING at install time if the video hardware is questionable, suggesting installing another DE first.
Once you can see the screen you can take it from there, experience is needed otherwise. I still find about 40-60% of my machines using Radeon or Nvidea will be more stable with the vendor drivers.
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