Hello,
Can you run KDE on Fedora 19 without gnome-shell?
Thanks!
Best, Oliver
On Thu, Oct 31, 2013 at 12:30 AM, Oliver Ruebenacker curoli@gmail.comwrote:
Can you run KDE on Fedora 19 without gnome-shell?
You can run KDE without any part of Gnome being installed. It's an entirely separate desktop environment.
poc
Hello,
When I boot, my system will start gnome-shell, before I can log in and choose whether I want Gnome of KDE. When I uninstall gnome-shell, it fails to boot.
Best, Oliver
On Thu, Oct 31, 2013 at 6:44 AM, Patrick O'Callaghan pocallaghan@gmail.comwrote:
On Thu, Oct 31, 2013 at 12:30 AM, Oliver Ruebenacker curoli@gmail.comwrote:
Can you run KDE on Fedora 19 without gnome-shell?
You can run KDE without any part of Gnome being installed. It's an entirely separate desktop environment.
poc
-- users mailing list users@lists.fedoraproject.org To unsubscribe or change subscription options: https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/users Fedora Code of Conduct: http://fedoraproject.org/code-of-conduct Guidelines: http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Mailing_list_guidelines Have a question? Ask away: http://ask.fedoraproject.org
El 2013-10-31 12:47, Oliver Ruebenacker escribió:
Hello,
When I boot, my system will start gnome-shell, before I can log in and choose whether I want Gnome of KDE. When I uninstall gnome-shell, it fails to boot.
# yum groupinstall kde-desktop-environment # systemctl enable kdm.service
no, you are mixing gnome-shell and gdm here gnome-shell for sure is not started before login
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/KDE_Display_Manager http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/GNOME_Display_Manager
Am 31.10.2013 12:47, schrieb Oliver Ruebenacker:
When I boot, my system will start gnome-shell, before I can log in and choose whether I want Gnome of KDE. When I uninstall gnome-shell, it fails to boot.
On Thu, Oct 31, 2013 at 6:44 AM, Patrick O'Callaghan <pocallaghan@gmail.com mailto:pocallaghan@gmail.com> wrote:
On Thu, Oct 31, 2013 at 12:30 AM, Oliver Ruebenacker <curoli@gmail.com <mailto:curoli@gmail.com>> wrote: Can you run KDE on Fedora 19 without gnome-shell? You can run KDE without any part of Gnome being installed. It's an entirely separate desktop environment
Hello,
On Thu, Oct 31, 2013 at 8:06 AM, Juan Orti Alcaine juan.orti@miceliux.comwrote:
El 2013-10-31 12:47, Oliver Ruebenacker escribió:
Hello,When I boot, my system will start gnome-shell, before I can log in and choose whether I want Gnome of KDE. When I uninstall gnome-shell, it fails to boot.
# yum groupinstall kde-desktop-environment
Interesting, I had done "yum install @kde-desktop" before. This one added three more packages.
# systemctl enable kdm.service
I did
sudo systemctl enable kdm.service
It says:
Failed to issue method call: File exists
Thanks!
Best, Oliver
Am 31.10.2013 13:20, schrieb Oliver Ruebenacker:
On Thu, Oct 31, 2013 at 8:06 AM, Juan Orti Alcaine <juan.orti@miceliux.com mailto:juan.orti@miceliux.com> wrote:
El 2013-10-31 12:47, Oliver Ruebenacker escribió: Hello, When I boot, my system will start gnome-shell, before I can log in and choose whether I want Gnome of KDE. When I uninstall gnome-shell, it fails to boot. # yum groupinstall kde-desktop-environmentInteresting, I had done "yum install @kde-desktop" before. This one added three more packages.
# systemctl enable kdm.serviceI did
sudo systemctl enable kdm.service
It says:
Failed to issue method call: File exists
systemctl disable gdm.service; systemctl enable kdm.service; systemctl stop gdm.service; systemctl start kdm.service
On 31 October 2013 14:20, Oliver Ruebenacker curoli@gmail.com wrote:
Hello,On Thu, Oct 31, 2013 at 8:06 AM, Juan Orti Alcaine juan.orti@miceliux.com wrote:
El 2013-10-31 12:47, Oliver Ruebenacker escribió:
Hello,When I boot, my system will start gnome-shell, before I can log in and choose whether I want Gnome of KDE. When I uninstall gnome-shell, it fails to boot.
# yum groupinstall kde-desktop-environment
Interesting, I had done "yum install @kde-desktop" before. This one added three more packages.
# systemctl enable kdm.service
I did
sudo systemctl enable kdm.service
It says:
Failed to issue method call: File exists
gdm.service is probably enabled, so you need to use: sudo systemctl enable --force kdm.service
Thanks!
Best, Oliver-- Oliver Ruebenacker IT Project Lead at PanGenX (http://www.pangenx.com) Be always grateful, but never satisfied.
-- users mailing list users@lists.fedoraproject.org To unsubscribe or change subscription options: https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/users Fedora Code of Conduct: http://fedoraproject.org/code-of-conduct Guidelines: http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Mailing_list_guidelines Have a question? Ask away: http://ask.fedoraproject.org
Hello,
On Thu, Oct 31, 2013 at 8:33 AM, Ahmad Samir ahmadsamir3891@gmail.comwrote:
On 31 October 2013 14:20, Oliver Ruebenacker curoli@gmail.com wrote:
Hello,On Thu, Oct 31, 2013 at 8:06 AM, Juan Orti Alcaine <
juan.orti@miceliux.com>
wrote:
El 2013-10-31 12:47, Oliver Ruebenacker escribió:
Hello,When I boot, my system will start gnome-shell, before I can log in and choose whether I want Gnome of KDE. When I uninstall gnome-shell, it fails to boot.
# yum groupinstall kde-desktop-environment
Interesting, I had done "yum install @kde-desktop" before. This one
added
three more packages.
# systemctl enable kdm.service
I did
sudo systemctl enable kdm.service
It says:
Failed to issue method call: File exists
gdm.service is probably enabled, so you need to use: sudo systemctl enable --force kdm.service
Great, thanks! Now my previously broken system, which would not proceed to the login screen, allows me to log into KDE.
Now I have to solve the other problem I had: making KDE recognize two monitors and use them side-by-side.
Best, Oliver
Am 31.10.2013 13:28, schrieb Reindl Harald:
Am 31.10.2013 13:20, schrieb Oliver Ruebenacker:
I did
sudo systemctl enable kdm.service
It says:
Failed to issue method call: File exists
systemctl disable gdm.service; systemctl enable kdm.service; systemctl stop gdm.service; systemctl start kdm.service
oh yeah, release this post after 3 days makes so much sense this wole moderation thing is *ridiculous* and again if you can't do the moderation in a timly manner stop doing so or simply *unsubscribe me completly* so that i no longer *waste my time* trying to help others
even on the devel-list someone recognized that i am doing a great job for Fdora and stopped the moderation but hey the on holy user list no way to stop this kindergarten....
you are doing *much more harn* with the moderation and the last few rejected messages was *caused by the moderation* because it makes me crazy to see a thread *useless* growing and my answer is peding forever
yes, devel stopped doing so independently of the thread below which was caused by bouncing back a *private message* and exactly the same was the reason got moderated here again instead people bounce private messages to lists and so violate more the etiquette and law
http://osdir.com/ml/fedora-users/2013-05/msg00039.html http://netblock-68-183-106-10.dslextreme.com/linux/fedora/fedora-advisory-bo... ________________________________
i better waste my time on writing bug reports and testing packages http://kparal.wordpress.com/
updates testing in Q2 2013 Adam Williamson (adamwill) 231 Reindl Harald (hreindl) 224
updates testing in Q1 2013 hreindl 278 patches 94
On Sat, Nov 2, 2013 at 9:50 PM, Reindl Harald h.reindl@thelounge.netwrote:
oh yeah, release this post after 3 days makes so much sense this wole moderation thing is *ridiculous* and again if you can't do the moderation in a timly manner stop doing so or simply *unsubscribe me completly* so that i no longer *waste my time* trying to help others
I'm sorry for pushing the email through moderation. I was offline for a couple of days (traveling to Hong Kong), and I was without internet access. It looks like the other moderators on the list didn't do any moderation in my absence, so all I can do is apologize that it took so long for your message to go through.
you are doing *much more harn* with the moderation and the last few rejected messages was *caused by the moderation* because it makes me crazy to see a thread *useless* growing and my answer is peding forever
Again, that's not my intention. As I've explained before, I try to do moderation every day that I'm online. I'm usually online Monday through Saturday, except when I'm traveling for work. We also have four or five other moderators, that *should* be helping to moderate posts, but it seems that they may need some additional prodding. Hopefully they'll see this message and step up their efforts.
yes, devel stopped doing so independently of the thread below which was caused by bouncing back a *private message* and exactly the same was the reason got moderated here again instead people bounce private messages to lists and so violate more the etiquette and law
There's no need to re-hash the entire situation again, Harald. As both a moderator on this list and a member of the Community Working Group, I know exactly what happened, and I'll remind you (once again) that the CWG gave you strict instructions on what you can do to avoid having your posts moderated. Up until now, you've refused to follow those instructions, so your posts remain moderated. I don't think I can make this any more clear.
i better waste my time on writing bug reports and testing packages http://kparal.wordpress.com/
updates testing in Q2 2013 Adam Williamson (adamwill) 231 Reindl Harald (hreindl) 224
updates testing in Q1 2013 hreindl 278 patches 94
Please don't think that just because we're moderating your posts to the users list (or that sometimes we're slow in getting to the moderation queue) that we don't value your contributions to Fedora. I'm happy to see the great testing you're doing, and the effort you make in trying to help people in the users mailing list.
-- Jared Smith
On 11/02/2013 07:58 PM, Jared K. Smith wrote:
We also have four or five other moderators, that *should* be helping to moderate posts, but it seems that they may need some additional prodding.
I don't want to sound sarkey and I'd like to thank you for doing your job as well as you do. However, I would like to ask why, if the other moderators aren't willing to do their job in a prompt and timely manner, they took the job in the first place.
Am 03.11.2013 03:58, schrieb Jared K. Smith:
On Sat, Nov 2, 2013 at 9:50 PM, Reindl Harald <h.reindl@thelounge.net mailto:h.reindl@thelounge.net> wrote:
oh yeah, release this post after 3 days makes so much sense this wole moderation thing is *ridiculous* and again if you can't do the moderation in a timly manner stop doing so or simply *unsubscribe me completly* so that i no longer *waste my time* trying to help othersI'm sorry for pushing the email through moderation. I was offline for a couple of days (traveling to Hong Kong), and I was without internet access. It looks like the other moderators on the list didn't do any moderation in my absence, so all I can do is apologize that it took so long for your message to go through.
that's all nice and understandable, but this happens *regulary* all the time and makes it *worthles* beeing most of the time the first one which replies day and night
you are doing *much more harn* with the moderation and the last few rejected messages was *caused by the moderation* because it makes me crazy to see a thread *useless* growing and my answer is peding foreverAgain, that's not my intention. As I've explained before, I try to do moderation every day that I'm online. I'm usually online Monday through Saturday, except when I'm traveling for work. We also have four or five other moderators, that *should* be helping to moderate posts, but it seems that they may need some additional prodding. Hopefully they'll see this message and step up their efforts.
this is a useless situation for *anybody* involved
yes, devel stopped doing so independently of the thread below which was caused by bouncing back a *private message* and exactly the same was the reason got moderated here again instead people bounce private messages to lists and so violate more the etiquette and lawThere's no need to re-hash the entire situation again, Harald. As both a moderator on this list and a member of the Community Working Group, I know exactly what happened, and I'll remind you (once again) that the CWG gave you strict instructions on what you can do to avoid having your posts moderated. Up until now, you've refused to follow those instructions, so your posts remain moderated. I don't think I can make this any more clear.
obviously there is a need to re-hash
so explain *here and now* and in the public what do you you expect from me and why you ignore the amount of helpful posts, the amount of feedback from other list members months ago that the moderation does more harm than it can ever help and without lose my face
*if you really think* that the possibility of a handful not friendly enough responses (which anyways are going out in the private CC which would not be needed without moderation and is my only chance to get out a response in a timly manner) outweights the amout of helpful resonses over the time *THAN UNSUBSCRIBE ME NOW* and make this decision public, otherwise stop this kindergarten
You don't seem to understand the code of conduct. It isn't limited to your interactions on Fedora channels. As part of the community, you are expected to behave in a certain civilized manner, to be polite and respectful. It doesn't matter if this is on or off list. It doesn't matter if you're talking to another Fedora community member or mozilla/ubuntu/whatnot. You're just expected to behave professionally and maturely _as_much_as_possible_. We're all human and will lose our tempers from time to time, but such cases must be *limited* to a minimum.
if you insist on this paragraph *UNSUBSCRIBE ME NOW* - period
i better waste my time on writing bug reports and testing packages http://kparal.wordpress.com/ updates testing in Q2 2013 Adam Williamson (adamwill) 231 Reindl Harald (hreindl) 224 updates testing in Q1 2013 hreindl 278 patches 94Please don't think that just because we're moderating your posts to the users list
i do not need to think while i know for sure that it *is not valued* because otherwise this topic would not exists for months and if you would value it you would come to the conclusion that the moderation makes more harm that i ever can do with a reply
(or that sometimes we're slow in getting to the moderation queue)
replace "sometimes" with "always"
that we don't value your contributions to Fedora.
i do not think - i know for sure that it *is not valued* otherwise this topic would not exists for months
I'm happy to see the great testing you're doing, and the effort you make in trying to help people in the users mailing list
if the contribution would be valued the list moderators would have come long ago to the conclusion that the moderation does more harm than it helps as @devel obviously did instead insist on a letter which explains me that i have to follow the Fedora conduct of code 365 days 24 hours a day everywhere
the following paragraph is *unacceptable*, a insolence and goes *far beyond* what a project like Fedora or whatever community is allowed to demand
You don't seem to understand the code of conduct. It isn't limited to your interactions on Fedora channels. As part of the community, you are expected to behave in a certain civilized manner, to be polite and respectful. It doesn't matter if this is on or off list. It doesn't matter if you're talking to another Fedora community member or mozilla/ubuntu/whatnot. You're just expected to behave professionally and maturely _as_much_as_possible_. We're all human and will lose our tempers from time to time, but such cases must be *limited* to a minimum.
if you insist on this paragraph *UNSUBSCRIBE ME NOW* - period
Am 03.11.2013 06:06, schrieb Joe Zeff:
On 11/02/2013 07:58 PM, Jared K. Smith wrote:
We also have four or five other moderators, that *should* be helping to moderate posts, but it seems that they may need some additional prodding.
I don't want to sound sarkey and I'd like to thank you for doing your job as well as you do. However, I would like to ask why, if the other moderators aren't willing to do their job in a prompt and timely manner, they took the job in the first place.
*they all* do not care - or did you see my repsonse below on the list within the last 12 hours as well as nobody of the owners nor Jared replied off-list
so the current state of play is that my membership on the users-list will end within the next 7 days, by the list moderators with a short message to the list which explains that i insisted to handle it this way or if they are too cowardly going this logical step i will do so
the third, obviously unlikely option (otherwise moderation had stopped in summer) would be we stop this ridiculously game of:
*bad person i need to censor you and the harm i do at it outbeats the POSSIBLE harm you could do with free speech*
-------- Original-Nachricht -------- Betreff: Re: list-moderation -> Re: KDE without gnome-shell? Datum: Sun, 03 Nov 2013 06:29:07 +0100 Von: Reindl Harald h.reindl@thelounge.net An: Jared K. Smith jsmith@fedoraproject.org Kopie (CC): Community support for Fedora users users@lists.fedoraproject.org, users-owner users-owner@lists.fedoraproject.org
Am 03.11.2013 03:58, schrieb Jared K. Smith:
On Sat, Nov 2, 2013 at 9:50 PM, Reindl Harald <h.reindl@thelounge.net mailto:h.reindl@thelounge.net> wrote:
oh yeah, release this post after 3 days makes so much sense this wole moderation thing is *ridiculous* and again if you can't do the moderation in a timly manner stop doing so or simply *unsubscribe me completly* so that i no longer *waste my time* trying to help othersI'm sorry for pushing the email through moderation. I was offline for a couple of days (traveling to Hong Kong), and I was without internet access. It looks like the other moderators on the list didn't do any moderation in my absence, so all I can do is apologize that it took so long for your message to go through.
that's all nice and understandable, but this happens *regulary* all the time and makes it *worthles* beeing most of the time the first one which replies day and night
you are doing *much more harn* with the moderation and the last few rejected messages was *caused by the moderation* because it makes me crazy to see a thread *useless* growing and my answer is peding foreverAgain, that's not my intention. As I've explained before, I try to do moderation every day that I'm online. I'm usually online Monday through Saturday, except when I'm traveling for work. We also have four or five other moderators, that *should* be helping to moderate posts, but it seems that they may need some additional prodding. Hopefully they'll see this message and step up their efforts.
this is a useless situation for *anybody* involved
yes, devel stopped doing so independently of the thread below which was caused by bouncing back a *private message* and exactly the same was the reason got moderated here again instead people bounce private messages to lists and so violate more the etiquette and lawThere's no need to re-hash the entire situation again, Harald. As both a moderator on this list and a member of the Community Working Group, I know exactly what happened, and I'll remind you (once again) that the CWG gave you strict instructions on what you can do to avoid having your posts moderated. Up until now, you've refused to follow those instructions, so your posts remain moderated. I don't think I can make this any more clear.
obviously there is a need to re-hash
so explain *here and now* and in the public what do you you expect from me and why you ignore the amount of helpful posts, the amount of feedback from other list members months ago that the moderation does more harm than it can ever help and without lose my face
*if you really think* that the possibility of a handful not friendly enough responses (which anyways are going out in the private CC which would not be needed without moderation and is my only chance to get out a response in a timly manner) outweights the amout of helpful resonses over the time *THAN UNSUBSCRIBE ME NOW* and make this decision public, otherwise stop this kindergarten
You don't seem to understand the code of conduct. It isn't limited to your interactions on Fedora channels. As part of the community, you are expected to behave in a certain civilized manner, to be polite and respectful. It doesn't matter if this is on or off list. It doesn't matter if you're talking to another Fedora community member or mozilla/ubuntu/whatnot. You're just expected to behave professionally and maturely _as_much_as_possible_. We're all human and will lose our tempers from time to time, but such cases must be *limited* to a minimum.
if you insist on this paragraph *UNSUBSCRIBE ME NOW* - period
i better waste my time on writing bug reports and testing packages http://kparal.wordpress.com/ updates testing in Q2 2013 Adam Williamson (adamwill) 231 Reindl Harald (hreindl) 224 updates testing in Q1 2013 hreindl 278 patches 94Please don't think that just because we're moderating your posts to the users list
i do not need to think while i know for sure that it *is not valued* because otherwise this topic would not exists for months and if you would value it you would come to the conclusion that the moderation makes more harm that i ever can do with a reply
(or that sometimes we're slow in getting to the moderation queue)
replace "sometimes" with "always"
that we don't value your contributions to Fedora.
i do not think - i know for sure that it *is not valued* otherwise this topic would not exists for months
I'm happy to see the great testing you're doing, and the effort you make in trying to help people in the users mailing list
if the contribution would be valued the list moderators would have come long ago to the conclusion that the moderation does more harm than it helps as @devel obviously did instead insist on a letter which explains me that i have to follow the Fedora conduct of code 365 days 24 hours a day everywhere
the following paragraph is *unacceptable*, a insolence and goes *far beyond* what a project like Fedora or whatever community is allowed to demand
You don't seem to understand the code of conduct. It isn't limited to your interactions on Fedora channels. As part of the community, you are expected to behave in a certain civilized manner, to be polite and respectful. It doesn't matter if this is on or off list. It doesn't matter if you're talking to another Fedora community member or mozilla/ubuntu/whatnot. You're just expected to behave professionally and maturely _as_much_as_possible_. We're all human and will lose our tempers from time to time, but such cases must be *limited* to a minimum.
if you insist on this paragraph *UNSUBSCRIBE ME NOW* - period
Hi
On Sun, Nov 3, 2013 at 1:06 AM, Joe Zeff wrote:
On 11/02/2013 07:58 PM, Jared K. Smith wrote:
We also have four or five other moderators, that *should* be helping to moderate posts, but it seems that they may need some additional prodding.
I don't want to sound sarkey and I'd like to thank you for doing your job as well as you do. However, I would like to ask why, if the other moderators aren't willing to do their job in a prompt and timely manner, they took the job in the first place.
Life happens. People sign up on to volunteer roles with good intentions and get caught with their real work and other priorities. If you believe you can do a better job, feel free to participate. I would love to get more co-maintainers answering bug reports on a more timely manner as well for that matter.
Rahul
On 11/03/2013 09:56 AM, Rahul Sundaram wrote:
If you believe you can do a better job, feel free to participate. I would love to get more co-maintainers answering bug reports on a more timely manner as well for that matter.
As far as moderating goes, I'm seriously considering it. As far as maintainer, I would if I had the proper skills, but I've not done any programming in decades.
Hi
On Sun, Nov 3, 2013 at 2:44 PM, Joe Zeff wrote:
On 11/03/2013 09:56 AM, Rahul Sundaram wrote:
If you believe you can do a better job, feel free to participate. I would love to get more co-maintainers answering bug reports on a more timely manner as well for that matter.
As far as moderating goes, I'm seriously considering it. As far as maintainer, I would if I had the proper skills, but I've not done any programming in decades.
Well, package maintainers are not necessarily programmers. Especially in Fedora, upstream is doing development and Fedora is mostly doing integration. You do need to understand rpm spec files, autotools etc but lack of programming expertise shouldn't stop you from participating. I do hope you take a good look at it.
https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/How_to_create_a_GNU_Hello_RPM_package
Feel free to drop me a mail offlist if you want to get started and have more questions. This is my long standing open offer to everyone btw.
Rahul
well, you even do not find it worth to answer and continue not release posts
if you would act honest and practice what you preach you would have written an answer within the last two days and even a "please unsubscribe now" would have shown more respect than nothing at all
since this bevavior not likely changes i quit *until midnight*, choose if you are fair enough to release at least this "goodbye" and/or reconsider how to act with people yourself within these few hours
in a free community respect also means people are sometimes allowed to be hot-blooded and straight-ahead, given that my seek/give-help ratio is 1/1000 i do not need to creep in the sand in front of anybody because trying hard to not insult people over a long time is not fair enough
goodbye and hopefully you find enough people with enough knowledge while 24 hours a day acting like a pure gentleman in any context - i did not meet much of them in the last 35 years, honestly not a single one
-------- Original-Nachricht -------- Betreff: Re: list-moderation -> Re: KDE without gnome-shell? Datum: Sun, 03 Nov 2013 06:29:07 +0100 Von: Reindl Harald h.reindl@thelounge.net Organisation: the lounge interactive design An: Jared K. Smith jsmith@fedoraproject.org Kopie (CC): Community support for Fedora users users@lists.fedoraproject.org, users-owner users-owner@lists.fedoraproject.org
Am 03.11.2013 03:58, schrieb Jared K. Smith:
On Sat, Nov 2, 2013 at 9:50 PM, Reindl Harald <h.reindl@thelounge.net mailto:h.reindl@thelounge.net> wrote:
oh yeah, release this post after 3 days makes so much sense this wole moderation thing is *ridiculous* and again if you can't do the moderation in a timly manner stop doing so or simply *unsubscribe me completly* so that i no longer *waste my time* trying to help othersI'm sorry for pushing the email through moderation. I was offline for a couple of days (traveling to Hong Kong), and I was without internet access. It looks like the other moderators on the list didn't do any moderation in my absence, so all I can do is apologize that it took so long for your message to go through.
that's all nice and understandable, but this happens *regulary* all the time and makes it *worthles* beeing most of the time the first one which replies day and night
you are doing *much more harn* with the moderation and the last few rejected messages was *caused by the moderation* because it makes me crazy to see a thread *useless* growing and my answer is peding foreverAgain, that's not my intention. As I've explained before, I try to do moderation every day that I'm online. I'm usually online Monday through Saturday, except when I'm traveling for work. We also have four or five other moderators, that *should* be helping to moderate posts, but it seems that they may need some additional prodding. Hopefully they'll see this message and step up their efforts.
this is a useless situation for *anybody* involved
yes, devel stopped doing so independently of the thread below which was caused by bouncing back a *private message* and exactly the same was the reason got moderated here again instead people bounce private messages to lists and so violate more the etiquette and lawThere's no need to re-hash the entire situation again, Harald. As both a moderator on this list and a member of the Community Working Group, I know exactly what happened, and I'll remind you (once again) that the CWG gave you strict instructions on what you can do to avoid having your posts moderated. Up until now, you've refused to follow those instructions, so your posts remain moderated. I don't think I can make this any more clear.
obviously there is a need to re-hash
so explain *here and now* and in the public what do you you expect from me and why you ignore the amount of helpful posts, the amount of feedback from other list members months ago that the moderation does more harm than it can ever help and without lose my face
*if you really think* that the possibility of a handful not friendly enough responses (which anyways are going out in the private CC which would not be needed without moderation and is my only chance to get out a response in a timly manner) outweights the amout of helpful resonses over the time *THAN UNSUBSCRIBE ME NOW* and make this decision public, otherwise stop this kindergarten
You don't seem to understand the code of conduct. It isn't limited to your interactions on Fedora channels. As part of the community, you are expected to behave in a certain civilized manner, to be polite and respectful. It doesn't matter if this is on or off list. It doesn't matter if you're talking to another Fedora community member or mozilla/ubuntu/whatnot. You're just expected to behave professionally and maturely _as_much_as_possible_. We're all human and will lose our tempers from time to time, but such cases must be *limited* to a minimum.
if you insist on this paragraph *UNSUBSCRIBE ME NOW* - period
i better waste my time on writing bug reports and testing packages http://kparal.wordpress.com/ updates testing in Q2 2013 Adam Williamson (adamwill) 231 Reindl Harald (hreindl) 224 updates testing in Q1 2013 hreindl 278 patches 94Please don't think that just because we're moderating your posts to the users list
i do not need to think while i know for sure that it *is not valued* because otherwise this topic would not exists for months and if you would value it you would come to the conclusion that the moderation makes more harm that i ever can do with a reply
(or that sometimes we're slow in getting to the moderation queue)
replace "sometimes" with "always"
that we don't value your contributions to Fedora.
i do not think - i know for sure that it *is not valued* otherwise this topic would not exists for months
I'm happy to see the great testing you're doing, and the effort you make in trying to help people in the users mailing list
if the contribution would be valued the list moderators would have come long ago to the conclusion that the moderation does more harm than it helps as @devel obviously did instead insist on a letter which explains me that i have to follow the Fedora conduct of code 365 days 24 hours a day everywhere
the following paragraph is *unacceptable*, a insolence and goes *far beyond* what a project like Fedora or whatever community is allowed to demand
You don't seem to understand the code of conduct. It isn't limited to your interactions on Fedora channels. As part of the community, you are expected to behave in a certain civilized manner, to be polite and respectful. It doesn't matter if this is on or off list. It doesn't matter if you're talking to another Fedora community member or mozilla/ubuntu/whatnot. You're just expected to behave professionally and maturely _as_much_as_possible_. We're all human and will lose our tempers from time to time, but such cases must be *limited* to a minimum.
if you insist on this paragraph *UNSUBSCRIBE ME NOW* - period
On Mon, Nov 04, 2013 at 09:34:05PM +0100, Reindl Harald wrote:
well, you even do not find it worth to answer and continue not release posts
if you would act honest and practice what you preach you would have written an answer within the last two days and even a "please unsubscribe now" would have shown more respect than nothing at all
since this bevavior not likely changes i quit *until midnight*, choose if you are fair enough to release at least this "goodbye" and/or reconsider how to act with people yourself within these few hours
in a free community respect also means people are sometimes allowed to be hot-blooded and straight-ahead, given that my seek/give-help ratio is 1/1000 i do not need to creep in the sand in front of anybody because trying hard to not insult people over a long time is not fair enough
goodbye and hopefully you find enough people with enough knowledge while 24 hours a day acting like a pure gentleman in any context - i did not meet much of them in the last 35 years, honestly not a single one
I'm sorry for pushing the email through moderation. I was offline for a couple of days (traveling to Hong Kong), and I was without internet access. It looks like the other moderators on the list didn't do any moderation in my absence, so all I can do is apologize that it took so long for your message to go through.
obviously there is a need to re-hash
so explain *here and now* and in the public what do you you expect from me
if you insist on this paragraph *UNSUBSCRIBE ME NOW* - period
IIRC there was an apology from the moderator for pushing one of your messages thru moderation too quickly. That being said, I'm sorry to see him go. He was a good source of valuable information.
BTW, the moderator(s) seem to confuse bluntness with rudeness and/or combatitiveness. For my part, I appreciate bluntness.
In case Harald has already unsubscribed, I'm CCing this to him.
-- users mailing list users@lists.fedoraproject.org To unsubscribe or change subscription options: https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/users Fedora Code of Conduct: http://fedoraproject.org/code-of-conduct Guidelines: http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Mailing_list_guidelines Have a question? Ask away: http://ask.fedoraproject.org
On 06/11/13 13:20, Robert Holtzman wrote:
He was a good source of valuable information.
BTW, the moderator(s) seem to confuse bluntness with rudeness and/or combatitiveness. For my part, I appreciate bluntness.
I agree and I think this has been handled poorly. People I find offensive I simply filter out and never see them. It would seem others would do the same ...
Bob
11/06/2013 11:09 AM, Bob Goodwin ~ Zuni, Virginia, USA wrote:
People I find offensive I simply filter out and never see them. It would seem others would do the same ...
+1
I hope we haven't lost a "diamond in the rough".
On 06/11/13 02:17 PM, Mike Wright wrote:
11/06/2013 11:09 AM, Bob Goodwin ~ Zuni, Virginia, USA wrote:
People I find offensive I simply filter out and never see them. It would seem others would do the same ...
+1
I hope we haven't lost a "diamond in the rough".
+1 even though I sometimes have been the object of his "bluntness"
Hold On!
Is this situation kind of like a Frankenstein Movie? Where at the end of this episode the monster appears dead? But of wait, Not to worry (Or maybe you should)?, He will come back in the next episode?
Thomas Dineen
On 11/6/2013 11:23 AM, Frank wrote:
On 06/11/13 02:17 PM, Mike Wright wrote:
11/06/2013 11:09 AM, Bob Goodwin ~ Zuni, Virginia, USA wrote:
People I find offensive I simply filter out and never see them. It would seem others would do the same ...
+1
I hope we haven't lost a "diamond in the rough".
+1 even though I sometimes have been the object of his "bluntness"
There is also geographical irony here! Keeping in mine the place where Frankenstein was born! See: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Villa_Diodati
Thomas Dineen
On 11/6/2013 11:44 AM, Thomas Dineen wrote:
Hold On!
Is this situation kind of like a Frankenstein Movie? Where at the end of this episode the monster appears dead? But of wait, Not to worry (Or maybe you should)?, He will come back in the next episode?
Thomas Dineen
On 11/6/2013 11:23 AM, Frank wrote:
On 06/11/13 02:17 PM, Mike Wright wrote:
11/06/2013 11:09 AM, Bob Goodwin ~ Zuni, Virginia, USA wrote:
People I find offensive I simply filter out and never see them. It would seem others would do the same ...
+1
I hope we haven't lost a "diamond in the rough".
+1 even though I sometimes have been the object of his "bluntness"
On 06.11.2013, Bob Goodwin ~ Zuni, Virginia, USA wrote:
People I find offensive I simply filter out and never see them. It would seem others would do the same
I have never understood this "problem" here on the list. You don't like to read somebodies email? Write a killfile, put him/her in it, and you're done.
FWIW: I guess it had a good reason that he was/is moderated. Don't want to argue on that one..
On 11/06/2013 12:38 PM, Heinz Diehl wrote:
FWIW: I guess it had a good reason that he was/is moderated. Don't want to argue on that one..
I'm beginning to think that the problem was started by complaints from one or more offense thieves. (That's a person who takes offense when none was offered.) This was followed up by heavy-handed moderation by one or more moderators who not only didn't have the time to do the job correctly, but were too eager to reject posts that didn't meet their unreasonable standards. And, I can remember posts from other members on this list that used far more offensive language against him than he ever used, and almost nobody objected.
People, if you'd take offense if somebody on this list called you something, or used certain terms to refer to you, don't use them yourself, because if you do, you have no valid grounds for complaint if you find them coming back. I'm not naming names, I'm not pointing fingers, I'm just reminding all of you of one of the easiest forms of the Golden Rule to follow: "Don't call anybody anything that you'd find offensive if they used it to refer to you."
Hi
On Wed, Nov 6, 2013 at 1:20 PM, Robert Holtzman wrote:
BTW, the moderator(s) seem to confuse bluntness with rudeness and/or combatitiveness. For my part, I appreciate bluntness.
Bluntness is often used as a excuse by people who are rude. It is easy enough to see the difference. "You are wrong" is blunt but is helpful to suggest how it can be improved. "You are an idiot" is rude and not really justified in this list even if you good technical expertise and it is against Fedora's code of conduct. I will leave it as an exercise to reader to figure out which side they stand on.
Rahul
On 06.11.2013 20:44, Thomas Dineen wrote:
Hold On!
Is this situation kind of like a Frankenstein Movie? Where at the end of this episode the monster appears dead? But of wait, Not to worry (Or maybe you should)?, He will come back in the next episode?
Or next mailing list :-) AFAIK the monster is alive and good. You can speak to him at devel list.
Mateusz
On Wed, Nov 06, 2013 at 04:22:03PM -0500, Rahul Sundaram wrote:
Hi
On Wed, Nov 6, 2013 at 1:20 PM, Robert Holtzman wrote:
BTW, the moderator(s) seem to confuse bluntness with rudeness and/or combatitiveness. For my part, I appreciate bluntness.
Bluntness is often used as a excuse by people who are rude. It is easy enough to see the difference. "You are wrong" is blunt but is helpful to suggest how it can be improved. "You are an idiot" is rude and not really justified in this list even if you good technical expertise and it is against Fedora's code of conduct. I will leave it as an exercise to reader to figure out which side they stand on.
The problem, of course, being that idiots seldom appreciate their idiocy unless it's pointed out to them.......bluntly.
I contend that, as has been previously stated in another post, this matter was poorly, clumsily handled.
HI
On Thu, Nov 7, 2013 at 12:15 AM, Robert Holtzman wrote:
The problem, of course, being that idiots seldom appreciate their idiocy unless it's pointed out to them.......bluntly.
That is a really weak excuse for being rude. The expectation in Fedora is that everyone should read and follow https://fedoraproject.org/code-of-conduct
Rahul
On 11/07/2013 10:45 AM, Robert Holtzman wrote:
On Wed, Nov 06, 2013 at 04:22:03PM -0500, Rahul Sundaram wrote:
Hi
On Wed, Nov 6, 2013 at 1:20 PM, Robert Holtzman wrote:
BTW, the moderator(s) seem to confuse bluntness with rudeness and/or combatitiveness. For my part, I appreciate bluntness.
Bluntness is often used as a excuse by people who are rude. It is easy enough to see the difference. "You are wrong" is blunt but is helpful to suggest how it can be improved. "You are an idiot" is rude and not really justified in this list even if you good technical expertise and it is against Fedora's code of conduct. I will leave it as an exercise to reader to figure out which side they stand on.
The problem, of course, being that idiots seldom appreciate their idiocy unless it's pointed out to them.......bluntly.
Who is an idiot ? This is more often than not, very subjective. A novice user may seem like an idiot to an insensitive expert user. Being rude, and using expletives in the reply, does not help the Fedora User community in any way, and on the other hand it may even alienate novice users. If an expert does not have the patience to deal with a novice user, it is better not to reply, and to leave it for others with more patience to help.
I contend that, as has been previously stated in another post, this matter was poorly, clumsily handled.
The person was given advice multiple times, over an extended period of time, to change the tone of replies to the user community. I believe that the moderators were very patient with the person, and allowed more time than usual, on account of his contributions to the Fedora community.
- rejy (rmc)
On 5 November 2013 00:34, Reindl Harald h.reindl@thelounge.net wrote:
<rant snipped>
Thanks for replying my threads! Bye!
On 11/07/2013 07:21 AM, Rejy M Cyriac wrote:
On 11/07/2013 10:45 AM, Robert Holtzman wrote:
On Wed, Nov 06, 2013 at 04:22:03PM -0500, Rahul Sundaram wrote:
Hi
On Wed, Nov 6, 2013 at 1:20 PM, Robert Holtzman wrote:
BTW, the moderator(s) seem to confuse bluntness with rudeness and/or combatitiveness. For my part, I appreciate bluntness.
Bluntness is often used as a excuse by people who are rude. It is easy enough to see the difference. "You are wrong" is blunt but is helpful to suggest how it can be improved. "You are an idiot" is rude and not really justified in this list even if you good technical expertise and it is against Fedora's code of conduct. I will leave it as an exercise to reader to figure out which side they stand on.
The problem, of course, being that idiots seldom appreciate their idiocy unless it's pointed out to them.......bluntly.
Who is an idiot ? This is more often than not, very subjective. A novice user may seem like an idiot to an insensitive expert user. Being rude, and using expletives in the reply, does not help the Fedora User community in any way, and on the other hand it may even alienate novice users.
What to consider rude also is subjective and largely dependent on a person's personal background.
I for instance, consider ad-hominem attacks disguised in politically correct wordings (There have been some in this thread) to be more disgusting than people who are using blunt or vulgar wordings to describe their positions on technical matters.
I contend that, as has been previously stated in another post, this matter was poorly, clumsily handled.
The person was given advice multiple times, over an extended period of time, to change the tone of replies to the user community. I believe that the moderators were very patient with the person, and allowed more time than usual, on account of his contributions to the Fedora community.
Well, I respectfully disagree. The moderators did not handle the situation appropriately, escalated the situation and have managed to drive away a Fedora user who provided valuable contributions.
Ralf
Allegedly, on or about 06 November 2013, Joe Zeff sent:
I'm beginning to think that the problem was started by complaints from one or more offense thieves. (That's a person who takes offense when none was offered.) This was followed up by heavy-handed moderation by one or more moderators who not only didn't have the time to do the job correctly, but were too eager to reject posts that didn't meet their unreasonable standards. And, I can remember posts from other members on this list that used far more offensive language against him than he ever used, and almost nobody objected.
Do you really think they'd bother to moderate someone who hadn't done something to deserve it?
Do you really think that they'd go through the continual effort to keep on moderating them, rather than relax it after a while, if the person didn't keep on doing whatever it was?
He got a blunt response, from a moderator, on this list in public, after his recent, "goodbye cruel world," message. That he'd been told what he had to do, and refused to.
The ball was *always* in his court. And other people shouldn't have to go out of their way, at all, not in any small amount, to have to avoid abuse. He chose to do what he did, and chose to keep on doing it.
On Thu, Nov 07, 2013 at 12:23:27AM -0500, Rahul Sundaram wrote:
HI
On Thu, Nov 7, 2013 at 12:15 AM, Robert Holtzman wrote:
The problem, of course, being that idiots seldom appreciate their idiocy unless it's pointed out to them.......bluntly.
That is a really weak excuse for being rude. The expectation in Fedora is that everyone should read and follow https://fedoraproject.org/code-of-conduct
To you it's rude, to me blunt. This will never be resolved as it's a matter of individual taste, enviroment, upbringing, etc. You seem to have a thinner skin than I do.
Hi
On Thu, Nov 7, 2013 at 6:02 PM, Robert Holtzman wrote:
To you it's rude, to me blunt. This will never be resolved as it's a matter of individual taste, enviroment, upbringing, etc. You seem to have a thinner skin than I do.
No. I can tolerate it just fine but I shouldn't have to. If you can't be courteous to other users in this list, you aren't following the list guidelines and moderators may choose to step in and at that point, your argument that it is all so very personal and subjective and hence we should all tolerate any abuse that is thrown out won't work.
Rahul
On Thu, Nov 7, 2013 at 11:08 PM, Rahul Sundaram metherid@gmail.com wrote:
On Thu, Nov 7, 2013 at 6:02 PM, Robert Holtzman wrote:
To you it's rude, to me blunt. This will never be resolved as it's a matter of individual taste, enviroment, upbringing, etc. You seem to have a thinner skin than I do.
No. I can tolerate it just fine but I shouldn't have to. If you can't be courteous to other users in this list, you aren't following the list guidelines and moderators may choose to step in and at that point, your argument that it is all so very personal and subjective and hence we should all tolerate any abuse that is thrown out won't work.
+1
poc
On Thu, Nov 7, 2013 at 3:08 PM, Rahul Sundaram metherid@gmail.com wrote:
Hi
On Thu, Nov 7, 2013 at 6:02 PM, Robert Holtzman wrote:
To you it's rude, to me blunt. This will never be resolved as it's a matter of individual taste, enviroment, upbringing, etc. You seem to have a thinner skin than I do.
No. I can tolerate it just fine but I shouldn't have to. If you can't be courteous to other users in this list, you aren't following the list guidelines and moderators may choose to step in and at that point, your argument that it is all so very personal and subjective and hence we should all tolerate any abuse that is thrown out won't work.
Rahul
Toleration is what groups are all about. If we didn't tolerate each other, we would live in much darker times.
Richard
The problem, of course, being that idiots seldom appreciate their idiocy unless it's pointed out to them.......bluntly.
A smart person gives people their space and never encroaches on another's sensibilities. A smart person knows that pointing out perceived failings of others never works because the perception is his alone. A smart person encourages others. A smart person always acts with humility and wisdom. A smart person understands that everyone is different and allows for another's vagaries. That's what I love about this list. The majority, at every opportunity, behave like smart people. My 0.2c worth Roger
On 7 November 2013 23:02, Robert Holtzman holtzm@cox.net wrote:
On Thu, Nov 07, 2013 at 12:23:27AM -0500, Rahul Sundaram wrote:
HI
On Thu, Nov 7, 2013 at 12:15 AM, Robert Holtzman wrote:
The problem, of course, being that idiots seldom appreciate their idiocy unless it's pointed out to them.......bluntly.
That is a really weak excuse for being rude. The expectation in Fedora is that everyone should read and follow https://fedoraproject.org/code-of-conduct
To you it's rude, to me blunt. This will never be resolved as it's a matter of individual taste, enviroment, upbringing, etc. You seem to have a thinner skin than I do.
It's good to see this fight is still going on. Perhaps I should email all the participants off-list with abuse to tell them to stop.
Allegedly, on or about 07 November 2013, Robert Holtzman sent:
To you it's rude, to me blunt. This will never be resolved as it's a matter of individual taste, enviroment, upbringing, etc. You seem to have a thinner skin than I do.
In general, what we saw was his bluntness. And I can be quite blunt, too. When the situation warrants it. Besides, I run a business, and being direct is often the best way to make sure things are done right, but that's an entirely different thing than being an asshole to people.
But much more often than was tolerable, he went well beyond bluntness, and was outrightly rude and well on the attack. That's what got him where he was (the attacking, more than the rudeness).
There is one hell of a difference between saying to someone, don't chmod /var/www/html to rwxrwxrwx because it's a dumb thing to do (bluntness), or to RTFM, than to start hurling insults around and attacking people. I dare say that his rudeness goes beyond the usual handbags at ten paces we may see, such as when it comes to what some people say about lovers of KDE or Gnome. Otherwise there'd be a lot more moderated people on here. But there aren't, so it goes to show the level that he went to, to trigger it.
I am an Australian, being thin skinned is not a national characteristic. We are the kind of country where a person can call the leader of the country a dickhead directly to their face, get caught doing it on national television, and nobody even raises an eyebrow (perhaps they'll raise a glass, but that's about all). Conversely, start a conversation that's essentially picking a fight, and you get one rather quickly. In general, people get what they deserve, is the sentiment.
He was given the choice to play ball, but didn't. He would rather leave, and continuing being what he is, rather than join the spirit of the community. It was always his choice.
I used to work with people with behavioural problems. If they didn't curb their own behaviour, someone else would do it for them. Complete strangers would be likely to give them a (deserved) hiding, the system takes more confronting steps (e.g. jail), so they do *need* to control themselves to be a part of society. Hopefully, people learn it at a young age, and they generally learn it by being corrected, not just getting it right by themselves. That's what we did, we didn't put up with crap, we stopped it and educated them about what they ought to be doing. Some hopeless people in the same place would just stand back and let them hang themselves, metaphorically, even make endless excuses for them. With the results that the miscreant carries on behaving badly, almost forever more, and a horde of victims pile up as collateral damage. *That* is an intolerable situation, but one that we can completely control (stopping other people being on the receiving end).
I see very little difference between that environment and this situation. Being "blunt," a person was being a jerk, causes lots of grief for lots of people, gets a certain level of restraint put on them, still carries on like a jerk, and a few enablers make excuses and try to undo any attempt to restrain the offending behaviour. And that doesn't help anybody.
He was not the messiah, and he didn't deserve royal treatment. The fact that he could help, sometimes, and did know things, doesn't make it all right to be a jerk. He can learn to control himself, come back, and not get moderated. He's even been told that, more than once, just in case the idea doesn't occur to him by itself. But I think we all know that he just isn't going to do that.
It ain't our fault he got in trouble, it ain't our fault he left, it's *all* his. Recognise that. Apportion the blame where it truly lays.
On Thu, Nov 07, 2013 at 06:08:47PM -0500, Rahul Sundaram wrote:
Hi
On Thu, Nov 7, 2013 at 6:02 PM, Robert Holtzman wrote:
To you it's rude, to me blunt. This will never be resolved as it's a matter of individual taste, enviroment, upbringing, etc. You seem to have a thinner skin than I do.
No. I can tolerate it just fine but I shouldn't have to. If you can't be courteous to other users in this list, you aren't following the list guidelines and moderators may choose to step in and at that point, your argument that it is all so very personal and subjective and hence we should all tolerate any abuse that is thrown out won't work.
You've stated your position and I've stated mine. End of subject.
On Fri, 8 Nov 2013, Robert Holtzman wrote:
On Thu, Nov 07, 2013 at 06:08:47PM -0500, Rahul Sundaram wrote:
Hi
On Thu, Nov 7, 2013 at 6:02 PM, Robert Holtzman wrote:
To you it's rude, to me blunt. This will never be resolved as it's a matter of individual taste, enviroment, upbringing, etc. You seem to have a thinner skin than I do.
No. I can tolerate it just fine but I shouldn't have to. If you can't be courteous to other users in this list, you aren't following the list guidelines and moderators may choose to step in and at that point, your argument that it is all so very personal and subjective and hence we should all tolerate any abuse that is thrown out won't work.
You've stated your position and I've stated mine. End of subject.
Actually, I think both of you are missing the point. I think you need to look at it from a consequentialist point of view. It *doesn't matter* whether or not Mr. Sundaram is offended and it doesn't matter that you are not offended. Both of you will continue to participate on the user list. Since it doesn't affect your behavior in a meaningful way, it is of no consequence. That's not true for other kinds of users, and the moderators need to consider that.
In most lists, there are a core of contributors who post relatively frequently. They are the ones who keep the list going, keep people interested, and provide many, if not most, of the answers, suggestions, topics, etc. As long as these core people continue to provide these services, it doesn't matter if they piss *each other* off.
However, there are two other constituencies -- the lurkers and the occasional users. Lurkers read the list on a regular basis but rarely post. Often they have a relatively decent level of knowledge and will provide help for a specific topic they feel confident about, but they won't engage in the everyday back and forth.
Occasional users are those folk out there who don't care about the user's list per se, but are simply looking for a solution to a particular problem. They come to the list asking a question and will likely stop reading once the quesion is answered. Sometimes, if the list turns out to be interesting and fun to read for the short time they are monitoring it, they may turn into lurkers or even regular posters. For instance, I came to this list with a specific question, but have stayed as a lurker and occasional -- but not particularly active -- poster.
The important question, I propose as a conjecture, is that it doesn't matter whether someone irritates the core posters, since it won't change their behavior in any substantive way. The question is whether or not certain responses *to the more casual readers* will drive them away. Will it make the *lurkers* leave or make them less likely to provide an answer to a question that they feel confident enough to post about? Will it make the casual user less likely to stay, or, worse, go somewhere else with questions?
It is useful for any open list whose mandate is primarily oriented towards support to offer answers to questions that exploit the broadest range and greatest number of knowledgeable people possible. If the responses on the list cause others to leave in large numbers, then they are counterproductive. If, on the other hand, they encourage others to stay and interact, then they are productive -- even if any individual post is off-topic or irritating to the core users.
Saying that "you can always hit the delete key" is a proper response to a core user. It is a reasonable, but not optimal, response to a lurker. It is a bad response to a casual user, because it is the functional equivalent of "go away." Thus, were I a moderator, I would look not so much at how irritating a response is, but more to *who* the irritating response is directed at. If a poster is dismissive towards a core user, it doesn't matter. If a poster is insulting to a casual user, it could damage the list in the long run by discouraging the accretion of new active participants.
Or, as the saying goes, "You can't talk about my sister that way! Only I can -- because she's family."
billo
Hi
On Sat, Nov 9, 2013 at 8:23 AM, Bill Oliver wrote:
The important question, I propose as a conjecture, is that it doesn't matter whether someone irritates the core posters, since it won't change their behavior in any substantive way.
A number of people including me have reduced participating in this list because of how abrasive the conversations were at one point. So I wouldn't say it has no real effect. I agree that it affects the casual contributors more however.
Rahul
On 11/09/2013 08:23 AM, Bill Oliver wrote:
On Fri, 8 Nov 2013, Robert Holtzman wrote:
On Thu, Nov 07, 2013 at 06:08:47PM -0500, Rahul Sundaram wrote:
Hi
On Thu, Nov 7, 2013 at 6:02 PM, Robert Holtzman wrote:
To you it's rude, to me blunt. This will never be resolved as it's a matter of individual taste, enviroment, upbringing, etc. You seem to have a thinner skin than I do.
No. I can tolerate it just fine but I shouldn't have to. If you can't be courteous to other users in this list, you aren't following the list guidelines and moderators may choose to step in and at that point, your argument that it is all so very personal and subjective and hence we should all tolerate any abuse that is thrown out won't work.
You've stated your position and I've stated mine. End of subject.
Actually, I think both of you are missing the point. I think you need to look at it from a consequentialist point of view. It *doesn't matter* whether or not Mr. Sundaram is offended and it doesn't matter that you are not offended. Both of you will continue to participate on the user list. Since it doesn't affect your behavior in a meaningful way, it is of no consequence. That's not true for other kinds of users, and the moderators need to consider that.
In most lists, there are a core of contributors who post relatively frequently. They are the ones who keep the list going, keep people interested, and provide many, if not most, of the answers, suggestions, topics, etc. As long as these core people continue to provide these services, it doesn't matter if they piss *each other* off.
However, there are two other constituencies -- the lurkers and the occasional users. Lurkers read the list on a regular basis but rarely post. Often they have a relatively decent level of knowledge and will provide help for a specific topic they feel confident about, but they won't engage in the everyday back and forth.
Occasional users are those folk out there who don't care about the user's list per se, but are simply looking for a solution to a particular problem. They come to the list asking a question and will likely stop reading once the quesion is answered. Sometimes, if the list turns out to be interesting and fun to read for the short time they are monitoring it, they may turn into lurkers or even regular posters. For instance, I came to this list with a specific question, but have stayed as a lurker and occasional -- but not particularly active -- poster.
The important question, I propose as a conjecture, is that it doesn't matter whether someone irritates the core posters, since it won't change their behavior in any substantive way. The question is whether or not certain responses *to the more casual readers* will drive them away. Will it make the *lurkers* leave or make them less likely to provide an answer to a question that they feel confident enough to post about? Will it make the casual user less likely to stay, or, worse, go somewhere else with questions?
It is useful for any open list whose mandate is primarily oriented towards support to offer answers to questions that exploit the broadest range and greatest number of knowledgeable people possible. If the responses on the list cause others to leave in large numbers, then they are counterproductive. If, on the other hand, they encourage others to stay and interact, then they are productive -- even if any individual post is off-topic or irritating to the core users.
Saying that "you can always hit the delete key" is a proper response to a core user. It is a reasonable, but not optimal, response to a lurker. It is a bad response to a casual user, because it is the functional equivalent of "go away." Thus, were I a moderator, I would look not so much at how irritating a response is, but more to *who* the irritating response is directed at. If a poster is dismissive towards a core user, it doesn't matter. If a poster is insulting to a casual user, it could damage the list in the long run by discouraging the accretion of new active participants.
Or, as the saying goes, "You can't talk about my sister that way! Only I can -- because she's family."
billo
Interesting topic, What about the person who WAS once a devoted person....but due to the responses he was getting....left....and after trying a slew of other distros...couldn't find anything that compared to this one?..so he came back, a bit subdued, and hoping his return goes un-noticed.....what category would he fall into?....lurker?....core user?...casual user?...(and I MAY be opening myself up to "attack" from certain people here....but guess I'll just take my lumps and bear it! LoL!)
EGO II
On 11/9/2013 1:39 PM, EGO.II-1 wrote:
On 11/09/2013 08:23 AM, Bill Oliver wrote:
Interesting topic, What about the person who WAS once a devoted person....but due to the responses he was getting....left....and after trying a slew of other distros...couldn't find anything that compared to this one?..so he came back, a bit subdued, and hoping his return goes un-noticed.....what category would he fall into?....lurker?....core user?...casual user?...(and I MAY be opening myself up to "attack" from certain people here....but guess I'll just take my lumps and bear it! LoL!)
EGO II
Try not to take it personally. Most of "The Internet", at least the parts I follow have taken a nasty tone over the last several years.
Here, for example, there are a lot of very knowledgeable people. They really know what they are talking about.
But, at times, being Geeks, they take a simple omelet and turn it into a 7 course dinner. :-)
On 11/09/2013 02:05 PM, David wrote:
On 11/9/2013 1:39 PM, EGO.II-1 wrote:
On 11/09/2013 08:23 AM, Bill Oliver wrote:
Interesting topic, What about the person who WAS once a devoted person....but due to the responses he was getting....left....and after trying a slew of other distros...couldn't find anything that compared to this one?..so he came back, a bit subdued, and hoping his return goes un-noticed.....what category would he fall into?....lurker?....core user?...casual user?...(and I MAY be opening myself up to "attack" from certain people here....but guess I'll just take my lumps and bear it! LoL!)
EGO II
Try not to take it personally. Most of "The Internet", at least the parts I follow have taken a nasty tone over the last several years.
Here, for example, there are a lot of very knowledgeable people. They really know what they are talking about.
But, at times, being Geeks, they take a simple omelet and turn it into a 7 course dinner. :-)
Sounds advice indeed! I guess I've grown my "skin" to be resistant enough against the treatment I used to receive....as I get older....I get wiser!
EGO II
On 11/9/2013 4:54 PM, EGO.II-1 wrote:
On 11/09/2013 02:05 PM, David wrote:
On 11/9/2013 1:39 PM, EGO.II-1 wrote:
On 11/09/2013 08:23 AM, Bill Oliver wrote:
Interesting topic, What about the person who WAS once a devoted person....but due to the responses he was getting....left....and after trying a slew of other distros...couldn't find anything that compared to this one?..so he came back, a bit subdued, and hoping his return goes un-noticed.....what category would he fall into?....lurker?....core user?...casual user?...(and I MAY be opening myself up to "attack" from certain people here....but guess I'll just take my lumps and bear it! LoL!)
EGO II
Try not to take it personally. Most of "The Internet", at least the parts I follow have taken a nasty tone over the last several years.
Here, for example, there are a lot of very knowledgeable people. They really know what they are talking about.
But, at times, being Geeks, they take a simple omelet and turn it into a 7 course dinner. :-)
Sounds advice indeed! I guess I've grown my "skin" to be resistant enough against the treatment I used to receive....as I get older....I get wiser!
EGO II
Big smiles(s) go here.
Seriously? IMHO. Some times the ego(s) of the responder(s) gets in the way of the simple needs of the OP.
As a n example? "My car won't start" and then turn that into a complete conversation of how to disassemble this car, reassemble it, with several 'what the heck is that stuff items added' and when that does not/might not work it then becomes a "try this' or 'try that' situation. I really dislike 'try this - in *might* work' suggestions.
Long distance help and 'I can't touch your machine' help can be hard. What bothers me is the geeks fighing amonst them selves.
And that simple statement will probably start the next $hit$storm for me. :-)
You have a good day. And from me at least, welcome back to Fedora.
On 11/09/2013 07:22 PM, David wrote:
On 11/9/2013 4:54 PM, EGO.II-1 wrote:
On 11/09/2013 02:05 PM, David wrote:
On 11/9/2013 1:39 PM, EGO.II-1 wrote:
On 11/09/2013 08:23 AM, Bill Oliver wrote:
Interesting topic, What about the person who WAS once a devoted person....but due to the responses he was getting....left....and after trying a slew of other distros...couldn't find anything that compared to this one?..so he came back, a bit subdued, and hoping his return goes un-noticed.....what category would he fall into?....lurker?....core user?...casual user?...(and I MAY be opening myself up to "attack" from certain people here....but guess I'll just take my lumps and bear it! LoL!)
EGO II
Try not to take it personally. Most of "The Internet", at least the parts I follow have taken a nasty tone over the last several years.
Here, for example, there are a lot of very knowledgeable people. They really know what they are talking about.
But, at times, being Geeks, they take a simple omelet and turn it into a 7 course dinner. :-)
Sounds advice indeed! I guess I've grown my "skin" to be resistant enough against the treatment I used to receive....as I get older....I get wiser!
EGO II
Big smiles(s) go here.
Seriously? IMHO. Some times the ego(s) of the responder(s) gets in the way of the simple needs of the OP.
As a n example? "My car won't start" and then turn that into a complete conversation of how to disassemble this car, reassemble it, with several 'what the heck is that stuff items added' and when that does not/might not work it then becomes a "try this' or 'try that' situation. I really dislike 'try this - in *might* work' suggestions.
Long distance help and 'I can't touch your machine' help can be hard. What bothers me is the geeks fighing amonst them selves.
And that simple statement will probably start the next $hit$storm for me. :-)
You have a good day. And from me at least, welcome back to Fedora.
Thanks! And I think that was the number one reason why I joined in the first place.,...the attitude of MOST of you people here?....is in a class by itself!
Cheers!
EGO II
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