On Thu, 2007-01-25 at 02:07 +0100, Mihamina Rakotomandimby (R12y) wrote:
I love this man... he has such well written stuff. Here's one where he discussed the LSB wanting to create a universal package installer. Would that be heaven or what?? Ric
http://www.linux-watch.com/news/NS4586903228.html
On Thu January 25 2007, Ric Moore wrote:
I love this man... he has such well written stuff. Here's one where he discussed the LSB wanting to create a universal package installer. Would that be heaven or what?? Ric
He is often interesting. But, in this vein, do you know about Linspire's plan to open up CNR to the masses? http://www.linspire.com/linspire_letter_archives.php?id=38
".....This week we announced that CNR will soon be available for many of the most popular desktop Linux distributions, not just Linspire and Freespire. In addition to Linspire and Freespire, the first distributions you'll see supported throughout this year are (alphabetically): Debian, Fedora, OpenSUSE, and Ubuntu....."
On Thu, 2007-01-25 at 01:35 -0500, Claude Jones wrote:
On Thu January 25 2007, Ric Moore wrote:
I love this man... he has such well written stuff. Here's one where he discussed the LSB wanting to create a universal package installer. Would that be heaven or what?? Ric
He is often interesting. But, in this vein, do you know about Linspire's plan to open up CNR to the masses? http://www.linspire.com/linspire_letter_archives.php?id=38
".....This week we announced that CNR will soon be available for many of the most popular desktop Linux distributions, not just Linspire and Freespire. In addition to Linspire and Freespire, the first distributions you'll see supported throughout this year are (alphabetically): Debian, Fedora, OpenSUSE, and Ubuntu....."
This sounds almost too good to be true, I think I would trust using a system like that, with a universal LSB format and plenty of mirrors maintained by the distros so one outfit doesn't rule the dnloads. I would not trust just one outfit to be in charge. We might find ourselves faced with a new breed of "shareware" with popups, gimmie gimmie and all the old windows crap. If it can be made equitable and everyone is happy, then I'd be for it. Ye Olde Curmudgeon, Ric
On Thu January 25 2007, Ric Moore wrote:
This sounds almost too good to be true, I think I would trust using a system like that, with a universal LSB format and plenty of mirrors maintained by the distros so one outfit doesn't rule the dnloads. I would not trust just one outfit to be in charge. We might find ourselves faced with a new breed of "shareware" with popups, gimmie gimmie and all the old windows crap. If it can be made equitable and everyone is happy, then I'd be for it. Ye Olde Curmudgeon, Ric
Just because they open up their repo's to the public, and make their package selection multi-distro, I don't think the other repos are going to curl up and go fetal, so I doubt it will ever get to the one mega-repo. As far as ads and such, I can't say - I've test run Freespire. I found it a very good distro in many ways, and the package selection was huge - they have a weird way of databasing the thing and when you open Yumex or Smart, you can watch it checking through something like 160+ different repo lists - that's a bit tedious. The other thing I found with Freespire and the package selection they made available was that it was rather far behind the cutting edge, software wise. Everything you install, just installs and works, and comes up with all sorts of pre-configuration taken care of - but, many packages were two or three major revisions back from what you get with Fedora. We'll have to see how that plays out because if they intend to become a Fedora repo, they're going to have to deal with that issue - maybe they're just going to mirror Fedora's existing repo's - who knows? The other thing that's of interest to some and anathema to others, is that they do happen to be the first Linux distro that is legally licensed to distribute packages that will play Windows Media - that was part of their settlement with Windows where they gave up the "Lindows" name in exchange. I believe they are already making those packages available in the free CNR repo. I tried all this back when the first Freespire beta was released - it may be time to try it again since the second beta was released about a month ago. Oh, and I just remembered one other thing that put me off about Freespire - there were never any updates. That could have been because it was early beta - though I do remember reading something about how that was a 'feature' of the paid version of the repo - the free version would only provide security updates within each release cycle, or something like that - I could have all this wrong, and I'm sure they are going through a lot of changes in policy, anyhow. Time to revisit I guess...
On Thu January 25 2007, Claude Jones wrote:
they have a weird way of databasing the thing and when you open Yumex or Smart
Just re-read this and realized/remembered Freespire doesn't use yum - the only package manager it came with was the CNR one, which they tried to get you to sign up for, and pay money for, the first time you use it - that was last year. I used apt-get to download Synaptic package manager, and that worked fine as long as you knew about it. It came up configured with the huge repo list and that's what I was watching check the 160+ repo lists each time I ran it.
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Claude Jones wrote:
On Thu January 25 2007, Claude Jones wrote:
they have a weird way of databasing the thing and when you open Yumex or Smart
Just re-read this and realized/remembered Freespire doesn't use yum - the only package manager it came with was the CNR one, which they tried to get you to sign up for, and pay money for, the first time you use it - that was last year. I used apt-get to download Synaptic package manager, and that worked fine as long as you knew about it. It came up configured with the huge repo list and that's what I was watching check the 160+ repo lists each time I ran it.
Would know if Freespire has the same security flaw that Linspire has? Everything by design in Linspire is run as 'root'. The GUI desktop. The applications. The whole thing. Just like Windows does.
- --
David
On Thu, 2007-01-25 at 06:05 -0800, David Boles wrote:
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Claude Jones wrote:
On Thu January 25 2007, Claude Jones wrote:
they have a weird way of databasing the thing and when you open Yumex or Smart
Just re-read this and realized/remembered Freespire doesn't use yum - the only package manager it came with was the CNR one, which they tried to get you to sign up for, and pay money for, the first time you use it - that was last year. I used apt-get to download Synaptic package manager, and that worked fine as long as you knew about it. It came up configured with the huge repo list and that's what I was watching check the 160+ repo lists each time I ran it.
Would know if Freespire has the same security flaw that Linspire has? Everything by design in Linspire is run as 'root'. The GUI desktop. The applications. The whole thing. Just like Windows does.
---- Like Ric & Gene
Craig
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Craig White wrote:
On Thu, 2007-01-25 at 06:05 -0800, David Boles wrote:
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Claude Jones wrote:
On Thu January 25 2007, Claude Jones wrote:
they have a weird way of databasing the thing and when you open Yumex or Smart
Just re-read this and realized/remembered Freespire doesn't use yum - the only package manager it came with was the CNR one, which they tried to get you to sign up for, and pay money for, the first time you use it - that was last year. I used apt-get to download Synaptic package manager, and that worked fine as long as you knew about it. It came up configured with the huge repo list and that's what I was watching check the 160+ repo lists each time I ran it.
Would know if Freespire has the same security flaw that Linspire has? Everything by design in Linspire is run as 'root'. The GUI desktop. The applications. The whole thing. Just like Windows does.
Like Ric & Gene
Oh. Ok. Thanks.
- --
David
Craig White wrote:
Would know if Freespire has the same security flaw that Linspire has? Everything by design in Linspire is run as 'root'. The GUI desktop. The applications. The whole thing. Just like Windows does.
Like Ric & Gene
On a single-user computer there's not a whole lot of value in preventing yourself from being able to destroy other user's work - which is what you get from the effort of not having admin privilages all the time.
Also, if you really think there are security bugs lurking in the programs you are running, wouldn't you prefer that they be found and fixed instead of worked around, avoided, and allowed to linger forever?
Today Les Mikesell did spake thusly:
Craig White wrote:
Would know if Freespire has the same security flaw that Linspire has? Everything by design in Linspire is run as 'root'. The GUI desktop. The applications. The whole thing. Just like Windows does.
Like Ric & Gene
On a single-user computer there's not a whole lot of value in preventing yourself from being able to destroy other user's work - which is what you get from the effort of not having admin privilages all the time.
Also, if you really think there are security bugs lurking in the programs you are running, wouldn't you prefer that they be found and fixed instead of worked around, avoided, and allowed to linger forever?
I'd prefer they were found and fixed by silly people running them as root and deleting all their files as opposed to by me, yes ;)
Scott van Looy wrote:
Also, if you really think there are security bugs lurking in the programs you are running, wouldn't you prefer that they be found and fixed instead of worked around, avoided, and allowed to linger forever?
I'd prefer they were found and fixed by silly people running them as root and deleting all their files as opposed to by me, yes ;)
And meanwhile you are so much better off just deleting your own files... I'm sure you'll be thrilled that the OS is still intact and running after that happens. While I agree that this is a 'best practices' thing and probably worthwhile in a multiuser scenario, I'm not sure its worth the extra effort when the user you normally run as has write access to everything that can't easily be reinstalled anyway.
Les Mikesell wrote:
And meanwhile you are so much better off just deleting your own files... I'm sure you'll be thrilled that the OS is still intact and running after that happens. While I agree that this is a 'best practices' thing and probably worthwhile in a multiuser scenario, I'm not sure its worth the extra effort when the user you normally run as has write access to everything that can't easily be reinstalled anyway.
One important benefit of running with limited privileges even on a single user system is that it thwarts attacks that aim to usurp system binaries and settings to further spread and damage other systems or to secretly steal your data without your knowledge.
While it would suck to lose your files to an attack, it would suck even more to have the attack surreptitiously install a key-logger that stole all of your passwords while you surfed, or used your system to attack others.
Running with the least privilege required to do your work makes plenty of sense even in a single user scenario. Just because it doesn't prevent the one attack you outlined doesn't make it useless.
I also think that many folks overestimate how much extra effort is required to run as a non-root user. So you are asked for an admin password every so often if you're configuring your system. Big deal. If you spend all day every day configuring your system, then you should be savvy enough to use sudo from the command line or slick enough to run as root all the time and work out the kinks in those uncharted waters.
Todd Zullinger wrote:
Les Mikesell wrote:
And meanwhile you are so much better off just deleting your own files... I'm sure you'll be thrilled that the OS is still intact and running after that happens. While I agree that this is a 'best practices' thing and probably worthwhile in a multiuser scenario, I'm not sure its worth the extra effort when the user you normally run as has write access to everything that can't easily be reinstalled anyway.
One important benefit of running with limited privileges even on a single user system is that it thwarts attacks that aim to usurp system binaries and settings to further spread and damage other systems or to secretly steal your data without your knowledge.
While it would suck to lose your files to an attack, it would suck even more to have the attack surreptitiously install a key-logger that stole all of your passwords while you surfed, or used your system to attack others.
Running with the least privilege required to do your work makes plenty of sense even in a single user scenario. Just because it doesn't prevent the one attack you outlined doesn't make it useless.
I also think that many folks overestimate how much extra effort is required to run as a non-root user. So you are asked for an admin password every so often if you're configuring your system. Big deal. If you spend all day every day configuring your system, then you should be savvy enough to use sudo from the command line or slick enough to run as root all the time and work out the kinks in those uncharted waters.
Not to mention that the real reason why most people run MS Windows as a Computer Admin is that when MS Windows /does/ ask a Limited User for an Admin password, it always botches the temporary grant of privileges. The Gnome desktop handles a temporary grant of privileges almost seamlessly, whether you're running Gnome Terminal or simply launching an administrative app from a menu. I imagine that KDE handles such requests similarly.
Add to it that many MS Windows games are dreadfully ill-behaved.
This is the legacy of MS-DOS thinking that it doesn't just own the world; it /is/ the world. It is simply not suitable for multi-user, networked use.
UNIX/Linux has multi-user system security built into every line of its specification.
Better than that, I've been running /and enforcing/ SELinux' targeted policy ever since installing FC6. I have no lasting issues.
Temlakos
Les Mikesell wrote:
On a single-user computer there's not a whole lot of value in preventing yourself from being able to destroy other user's work - which is what you get from the effort of not having admin privilages all the time.
This is a common misconception. First of all, you are not prevented from screwing up other users, you are prevented from accidentally screwing up the OS. Even windows tries (lamely) to protect you from deleting C:\Windows or C:\Program Files. Second, most systems nowadays are connected to the Internet, which exposes the system to all sorts of cracking attempts. The more processes you have running with administrative privileges, the more processes are available for an attacker to circumvent. On a single user system, losing user data is on the same level as using the OS, but a process acquiring a unprivileged user access has much fewer ways of using the system to do bad stuff then a process with admin access.
On Thu, 25 Jan 2007, Les Mikesell wrote:
Craig White wrote:
Would know if Freespire has the same security flaw that Linspire has? Everything by design in Linspire is run as 'root'. The GUI desktop. The applications. The whole thing. Just like Windows does.
Like Ric & Gene
On a single-user computer there's not a whole lot of value in preventing yourself from being able to destroy other user's work - which is what you get from the effort of not having admin privilages all the time.
Also some protection from accidentally destroying the rest of your system, which seems a worthwhile tradeoff to me.
Also, if you really think there are security bugs lurking in the programs you are running, wouldn't you prefer that they be found and fixed instead of worked around, avoided, and allowed to linger forever?
Well, sure, but I'm not volunteering to be the victim in the meantime.
On a single-user computer there's not a whole lot of value in preventing yourself from being able to destroy other user's work - which is what you get from the effort of not having admin privilages all the time.
If you can destroy stuff you can do it by accident, or through a software bug, or a misunderstanding.
Also, if you really think there are security bugs lurking in the programs you are running,
The biggest security hole is sitting in front of the computer, and unlike the others that one is *very* hard to fix. Policy and tools have to reflect that as the systems get more secure the bad guys will move their attacks to the next weakest link - the user.
Alan
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Matthew Saltzman wrote:
On Thu, 25 Jan 2007, Les Mikesell wrote:
Craig White wrote:
Would know if Freespire has the same security flaw that Linspire has? Everything by design in Linspire is run as 'root'. The GUI desktop. The applications. The whole thing. Just like Windows does.
Like Ric & Gene
On a single-user computer there's not a whole lot of value in preventing yourself from being able to destroy other user's work - which is what you get from the effort of not having admin privilages all the time.
Also some protection from accidentally destroying the rest of your system, which seems a worthwhile tradeoff to me.
Also, if you really think there are security bugs lurking in the programs you are running, wouldn't you prefer that they be found and fixed instead of worked around, avoided, and allowed to linger forever?
Well, sure, but I'm not volunteering to be the victim in the meantime.
Matthew,
I really doubt that you will win an argument about 'run as root' security here. It sounds as though many have SElinux turned off because it is inconvenient sometimes when it denies disk/file access that might be harmful, as Windows does allow, to strange applications. Some even think SELinux is a 'spy thing' from the NSA all because of a supposed Windows problem mentioned in the news dated 1999. One that had nothing to do with SELinux.
And while they are looking in the closet and under the bed for the bogeyman he could be walking in the front door through an unlocked door. ;-)
- --
David
Alan wrote:
The biggest security hole is sitting in front of the computer, and unlike the others that one is *very* hard to fix. Policy and tools have to reflect that as the systems get more secure the bad guys will move their attacks to the next weakest link - the user.
Usually there is an abstraction between what the user attempts to do and the action that really happens. You can have a problem if the abstraction misrepresents its action or if the user just doesn't understand it.
On Thu, 25 Jan 2007, David Boles wrote:
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Matthew Saltzman wrote:
On Thu, 25 Jan 2007, Les Mikesell wrote:
Craig White wrote:
Would know if Freespire has the same security flaw that Linspire has? Everything by design in Linspire is run as 'root'. The GUI desktop. The applications. The whole thing. Just like Windows does.
Like Ric & Gene
On a single-user computer there's not a whole lot of value in preventing yourself from being able to destroy other user's work - which is what you get from the effort of not having admin privilages all the time.
Also some protection from accidentally destroying the rest of your system, which seems a worthwhile tradeoff to me.
Also, if you really think there are security bugs lurking in the programs you are running, wouldn't you prefer that they be found and fixed instead of worked around, avoided, and allowed to linger forever?
Well, sure, but I'm not volunteering to be the victim in the meantime.
Matthew,
I really doubt that you will win an argument about 'run as root' security here. It sounds as though many have SElinux turned off because it is inconvenient sometimes when it denies disk/file access that might be harmful, as Windows does allow, to strange applications. Some even think SELinux is a 'spy thing' from the NSA all because of a supposed Windows problem mentioned in the news dated 1999. One that had nothing to do with SELinux.
Yeah, I know. I usually try to sit on my hands when these things come up, but I slipped off.
And while they are looking in the closet and under the bed for the bogeyman he could be walking in the front door through an unlocked door. ;-)
On Thu, 2007-01-25 at 08:09 -0500, Claude Jones wrote:
Oh, and I just remembered one other thing that put me off about Freespire - there were never any updates. That could have been because it was early beta - though I do remember reading something about how that was a 'feature' of the paid version of the repo - the free version would only provide security updates within each release cycle, or something like that - I could have all this wrong, and I'm sure they are going through a lot of changes in policy, anyhow. Time to revisit I guess...
Yeah, I read that one about fees they charged too. From a Windows perspective, acceptable. From a Linux perspective, not.
On Thu, 2007-01-25 at 07:41 -0700, Craig White wrote:
On Thu, 2007-01-25 at 06:05 -0800, David Boles wrote:
Would know if Freespire has the same security flaw that Linspire has? Everything by design in Linspire is run as 'root'. The GUI desktop. The applications. The whole thing. Just like Windows does.
Like Ric & Gene
Craig
You just had to go there, huh? <chuckles>
Gene, Les, Tim and I must have been separated at birth, so our coinciding use of the root user is just a sign of that. That plus older vehicles with no computers nor smog controls on them, just belching excess gas and carbon into the ozone the way God intended an American Make to do; though side-pipes to scorch the pavement, a proper gear-ratio to spin the tires and to scare the neighborhood into a hasty retreats while shooing the children to safety. All of that while stone-cold sober. OOH-RAH!
<Hi-fives Gene + Les> + <smirks> Ric
On Thu January 25 2007, Ric Moore wrote:
Yeah, I read that one about fees they charged too. From a Windows perspective, acceptable. From a Linux perspective, not.
Well, don't take this as my advocating Freespire, because I'm not. But, it is possible to run Freespire and access the CNR repo without paying a cent. They make it a little difficult to figure out, but, not that difficult. I just found their project to create a universal Linux repo interesting, and laudable, if they bring it off in a correct manner. We shall see. Just downloaded the newest ver 2 Beta - going to fire it up and see what they're up to...
On Thu, 2007-01-25 at 19:38 -0500, Ric Moore wrote:
On Thu, 2007-01-25 at 07:41 -0700, Craig White wrote:
On Thu, 2007-01-25 at 06:05 -0800, David Boles wrote:
Would know if Freespire has the same security flaw that Linspire has? Everything by design in Linspire is run as 'root'. The GUI desktop. The applications. The whole thing. Just like Windows does.
Like Ric & Gene
Craig
You just had to go there, huh? <chuckles>
Gene, Les, Tim and I must have been separated at birth, so our coinciding use of the root user is just a sign of that. That plus older vehicles with no computers nor smog controls on them, just belching excess gas and carbon into the ozone the way God intended an American Make to do; though side-pipes to scorch the pavement, a proper gear-ratio to spin the tires and to scare the neighborhood into a hasty retreats while shooing the children to safety. All of that while stone-cold sober. OOH-RAH!
<Hi-fives Gene + Les> + <smirks> Ric
---- I don't recall Les ever sounding in on whether he logs into the GUI desktop as root - perhaps he does but I think not. I wouldn't know about Tim.
I do see Gene complaining about things that he thinks didn't get installed properly where no one else has had those issues and I think they relate to his continual operation as root, especially building packages as root.
It strikes me as a lazy habit and once someone has settled in to this habit, they will not give it up easily. Reminds me of the adage that people will purchase emotionally and try to defend their purchase rationally.
I am sort of amused by the adoption of procedure on various OS's - where Windows installs the first user as superuser and this user must actually labor to create new user accounts and remove the administrative role from the first user account. Fedora first boot asks you to create the unprivileged user account and some users log in as super user anyway.
It's clear that the reason that Windows sets the normal user account to superuser privileges because they want to appeal to the non-technical users who simply want to turn on a computer and start using it right away. The penalty for that is that this user must run firewalls that ask questions the user doesn't understand, employ anti-virus software that this user probably won't verify is being updated and hopefully, when the subscription based update service expires, handholds the user into repurchase and gets it updated.
Clearly this is the market that Linspire is seeking which is why they also run as superuser.
Linux has traditionally followed the UNIX methodology where the least privileges necessary to function and Fedora / Red Hat has embraced this principle closely and has helped to develop the tools necessary to allow the user to function and obtain privileges if/when necessary/possible.
In the end however, it is still your system and of course, you are entitled to use however you see fit including disabling SELinux, build packages as root, run GUI as root, etc. I guess that the thing that clinches it for me is the people whose opinions I most respect suggest the above is not good practice.
Craig
On Thursday 25 January 2007 19:38, Ric Moore wrote:
On Thu, 2007-01-25 at 07:41 -0700, Craig White wrote:
On Thu, 2007-01-25 at 06:05 -0800, David Boles wrote:
Would know if Freespire has the same security flaw that Linspire has? Everything by design in Linspire is run as 'root'. The GUI desktop. The applications. The whole thing. Just like Windows does.
Like Ric & Gene
Craig
You just had to go there, huh? <chuckles>
Of course, he never misses an opening like that. :)
Gene, Les, Tim and I must have been separated at birth, so our coinciding use of the root user is just a sign of that. That plus older vehicles with no computers nor smog controls on them, just belching excess gas and carbon into the ozone the way God intended an American Make to do; though side-pipes to scorch the pavement, a proper gear-ratio to spin the tires and to scare the neighborhood into a hasty retreats while shooing the children to safety. All of that while stone-cold sober. OOH-RAH!
Humm, my last set of side pipes were cut through the rear frame rails just in front of the rear tires of a 49 mercury. The daughter that was born while I was building that engine is now 40 something. It almost had some mufflers. Serious squat & dig for the first 90 mph.
Next, my old 52 Saratoga with a 331 hemi in it had a 2.5" 10 foot length of emt connecting the manifold Y to the air, actually running under the rear axle to about 3" past the bumper. That hemi didn't cackle all that bad, in 100k miles that way I never got a ticket for loud pipes. And with a 3 speed od tranny & a dry clutch where the old M6 used to live, it was 30mph/1000 rpms in high overdrive. 3300 rpm flat out across the prairies of South Dakota=99 mph on flat ground and 19 mpg. That was a great car, in a straight line, but hell on door handle chrome going around corners, its front end geometry made it roll worse than usual.
I'd like to have that engine/powertrain combo in a modern aerodynamic vehicle, I'd bet on 30mpg at 100 mph. The carburetion wasn't stock of course. I do know a couple of things about those...
I've had some other now jurrasic fast cars too, but none could make that kind of mileage at speeds they could do for a full tank of gas, covering 410 miles on a 19 gallon tank many times.
<Hi-fives Gene + Les> + <smirks> Ric
--
My father, Victor Moore (Vic) used to say: "There are two Great Sins in the world... ..the Sin of Ignorance, and the Sin of Stupidity. Only the former may be overcome." R.I.P. Dad. Linux user# 44256 Sign up at: http://counter.li.org/ http://www.sourceforge.net/projects/oar http://www.wayward4now.net ================================================
Gene Heskett wrote:
410 miles on a 19 gallon tank many times.
I'm sorry, but shouldn't all of this be taken over to myspace.com or IRC or some other chat channel? I can create a mailing list for you guys that want to swap war stories, old age stories, mutual admiration parties and the like.
Ed Greshko wrote:
Gene Heskett wrote:
410 miles on a 19 gallon tank many times.
I'm sorry, but shouldn't all of this be taken over to myspace.com or IRC or some other chat channel? I can create a mailing list for you guys that want to swap war stories, old age stories, mutual admiration parties and the like.
Along with people ripping on others, when they want off list. Its why I dumped SUSE and switched to FC...
On Thu, 2007-01-25 at 20:24 -0500, Claude Jones wrote:
On Thu January 25 2007, Ric Moore wrote:
Yeah, I read that one about fees they charged too. From a Windows perspective, acceptable. From a Linux perspective, not.
Well, don't take this as my advocating Freespire, because I'm not. But, it is possible to run Freespire and access the CNR repo without paying a cent. They make it a little difficult to figure out, but, not that difficult. I just found their project to create a universal Linux repo interesting, and laudable, if they bring it off in a correct manner. We shall see. Just downloaded the newest ver 2 Beta - going to fire it up and see what they're up to...
Let us all know how it goes, they came onto the scene with a pile of press and then seemed to fade out there for awhile. The LSB has a pile of great aims and goals that could bring about a serious threat to the Windoze World. I personally believe Fedora and RH will bring these improvements into a state of being. I'm looking forward to it. Ric
On Fri, 2007-01-26 at 11:45 +0800, Ed Greshko wrote:
Gene Heskett wrote:
410 miles on a 19 gallon tank many times.
I'm sorry, but shouldn't all of this be taken over to myspace.com or IRC or some other chat channel? I can create a mailing list for you guys that want to swap war stories, old age stories, mutual admiration parties and the like.
That wasn't nice. "old age stories"? Ric
On Thu, 2007-01-25 at 09:38 -0600, Les Mikesell wrote:
Craig White wrote:
Would know if Freespire has the same security flaw that Linspire has? Everything by design in Linspire is run as 'root'. The GUI desktop. The applications. The whole thing. Just like Windows does.
Like Ric & Gene
On a single-user computer there's not a whole lot of value in preventing yourself from being able to destroy other user's work - which is what you get from the effort of not having admin privilages all the time.
Also, if you really think there are security bugs lurking in the programs you are running, wouldn't you prefer that they be found and fixed instead of worked around, avoided, and allowed to linger forever?
Hi, Les, I can't speak for others, but working at root means a slip of the old stuttertypers (my pathologically challenged and inclined fingers) can have disastrous results independent of bugs and virii.
Regards, Les H
Ric Moore wrote:
That wasn't nice. "old age stories"? Ric
Yes it is....
Blind people can rag on blind people, the hearing impaired can rag on the hearing impaired, and the old people can rag on the old people. Nothing nice or un-nice about. Next thing you know some folks will be putting up slide shows of their vacations.
So, I'm offering some folks their own mailing list.
On Thu, 2007-01-25 at 20:20 -0700, Craig White wrote:
On Thu, 2007-01-25 at 19:38 -0500, Ric Moore wrote:
On Thu, 2007-01-25 at 07:41 -0700, Craig White wrote:
On Thu, 2007-01-25 at 06:05 -0800, David Boles wrote:
Would know if Freespire has the same security flaw that Linspire has? Everything by design in Linspire is run as 'root'. The GUI desktop. The applications. The whole thing. Just like Windows does.
Like Ric & Gene
Craig
You just had to go there, huh? <chuckles>
Gene, Les, Tim and I must have been separated at birth, so our coinciding use of the root user is just a sign of that. That plus older vehicles with no computers nor smog controls on them, just belching excess gas and carbon into the ozone the way God intended an American Make to do; though side-pipes to scorch the pavement, a proper gear-ratio to spin the tires and to scare the neighborhood into a hasty retreats while shooing the children to safety. All of that while stone-cold sober. OOH-RAH!
<Hi-fives Gene + Les> + <smirks> Ric
I don't recall Les ever sounding in on whether he logs into the GUI desktop as root - perhaps he does but I think not. I wouldn't know about Tim.
I do see Gene complaining about things that he thinks didn't get installed properly where no one else has had those issues and I think they relate to his continual operation as root, especially building packages as root.
It strikes me as a lazy habit and once someone has settled in to this habit, they will not give it up easily. Reminds me of the adage that people will purchase emotionally and try to defend their purchase rationally.
I am sort of amused by the adoption of procedure on various OS's - where Windows installs the first user as superuser and this user must actually labor to create new user accounts and remove the administrative role from the first user account. Fedora first boot asks you to create the unprivileged user account and some users log in as super user anyway.
It's clear that the reason that Windows sets the normal user account to superuser privileges because they want to appeal to the non-technical users who simply want to turn on a computer and start using it right away. The penalty for that is that this user must run firewalls that ask questions the user doesn't understand, employ anti-virus software that this user probably won't verify is being updated and hopefully, when the subscription based update service expires, handholds the user into repurchase and gets it updated.
Clearly this is the market that Linspire is seeking which is why they also run as superuser.
Linux has traditionally followed the UNIX methodology where the least privileges necessary to function and Fedora / Red Hat has embraced this principle closely and has helped to develop the tools necessary to allow the user to function and obtain privileges if/when necessary/possible.
In the end however, it is still your system and of course, you are entitled to use however you see fit including disabling SELinux, build packages as root, run GUI as root, etc. I guess that the thing that clinches it for me is the people whose opinions I most respect suggest the above is not good practice.
Craig
Sorry, Ric, In this case Craig is right. I do not run as superuser. I run as a liddle ole' normla user (sic). I have found that my stumbling fingers stumble into some nasties all by them selves as root that I then have to try to figure out what I did and why it had those precise consequences.
Regards, Les H
On Thu, 2007-01-25 at 22:38 -0500, Gene Heskett wrote:
On Thursday 25 January 2007 19:38, Ric Moore wrote:
On Thu, 2007-01-25 at 07:41 -0700, Craig White wrote:
On Thu, 2007-01-25 at 06:05 -0800, David Boles wrote:
Would know if Freespire has the same security flaw that Linspire has? Everything by design in Linspire is run as 'root'. The GUI desktop. The applications. The whole thing. Just like Windows does.
Like Ric & Gene
Craig
You just had to go there, huh? <chuckles>
Of course, he never misses an opening like that. :)
Gene, Les, Tim and I must have been separated at birth, so our coinciding use of the root user is just a sign of that. That plus older vehicles with no computers nor smog controls on them, just belching excess gas and carbon into the ozone the way God intended an American Make to do; though side-pipes to scorch the pavement, a proper gear-ratio to spin the tires and to scare the neighborhood into a hasty retreats while shooing the children to safety. All of that while stone-cold sober. OOH-RAH!
Humm, my last set of side pipes were cut through the rear frame rails just in front of the rear tires of a 49 mercury. The daughter that was born while I was building that engine is now 40 something. It almost had some mufflers. Serious squat & dig for the first 90 mph.
Next, my old 52 Saratoga with a 331 hemi in it had a 2.5" 10 foot length of emt connecting the manifold Y to the air, actually running under the rear axle to about 3" past the bumper. That hemi didn't cackle all that bad, in 100k miles that way I never got a ticket for loud pipes. And with a 3 speed od tranny & a dry clutch where the old M6 used to live, it was 30mph/1000 rpms in high overdrive. 3300 rpm flat out across the prairies of South Dakota=99 mph on flat ground and 19 mpg. That was a great car, in a straight line, but hell on door handle chrome going around corners, its front end geometry made it roll worse than usual.
I'd like to have that engine/powertrain combo in a modern aerodynamic vehicle, I'd bet on 30mpg at 100 mph. The carburetion wasn't stock of course. I do know a couple of things about those...
I've had some other now jurrasic fast cars too, but none could make that kind of mileage at speeds they could do for a full tank of gas, covering 410 miles on a 19 gallon tank many times.
<Hi-fives Gene + Les> + <smirks> Ric
My favorite was a 1962 Oldsmobile Starfire, 650cuft/min Holley, 357 Rocket V8. With a bit of fixin', it went 130+ in the quarter, 404Hp and 408ftlbs torque in "street tune". Super Blue Sunoco something like 190 octane. Top end about 150 or so. My dad used to say there was a race between the gas gauge and the spedo. Boy, what a sweet ride. Convertible, Roman red and real chrome, not like today's plastic.
I had a Rebel station Wagon that was a $100.00 car, a 1957 Triumph TR-3, a 1954 Ford Flat Head with offenhauser aluminum heads and Wieand Wye manifold with two two barrels (former moonshiners car, still had the removable floor board in the back seat for dumping the hooch.)
I can put a distributor in, check the firing order, set it up, and get the engine to start the first time from memory. I really impressed my 24 year old son when I reset his when he forgot to write down the firing order after he had the distributor bearings replaced in his Barracuda, then I fudged his advance to give him a little more boost off the line. Do you know how to "shape" the springs on the centrifugal advance, or how to control the curve on the vacuum advance?
Regards, Les H
regards, Les H
Les wrote:
In this case Craig is right. I do not run as superuser. I run as a liddle ole' normla user (sic). I have found that my stumbling fingers stumble into some nasties all by them selves as root that I then have to try to figure out what I did and why it had those precise consequences.
I think everyone is right, use the method that is going to work best for your usage pattern on a particular box. If you do stuff like making rpm packages, doing it as root significantly increases the chance of damaging your system, so have a user on that box so any unintended writes to / just bounce off as disallowed. If you admin a box for someone nontechnical to use, make sure they are running as a mortal user so they can't meddle with network settings and so on. If you run network services, really this can include using a web browser, better if it runs under non-root credentials so any exploit has potentially more trouble disappearing into your woodwork -- and the other network services running under their own unprivileged UID/GID is useful for the same reason, but this is the default anyway.
On the other hand if you all ever do on a box is root-level admin, for example a remote server, then by all means log in as root and don't bother with a user, since a mortal user can't do anything you need to do anyway. Les Mikesell's point that all your valuable docs are under your UID and you can trash them as your mortal user is a very strong one since in most cases the OS can be regenerated/reinstalled pretty easily, eg with the rescue CD or an explicit reinstall, but your work product can't be, so merely running as a mortal does not protect you from that kind of disaster. If you prefer to use sudo to just allow some things to be done as root from a mortal login, hey that's fine too. The only way that is definitively wrong is if your particular method does not match what you needed on a particular box, like building rpms as root.
-Andy
On Fri, 2007-01-26 at 14:53 +0800, Ed Greshko wrote:
Ric Moore wrote:
That wasn't nice. "old age stories"? Ric
Yes it is....
Nice?
Blind people can rag on blind people, the hearing impaired can rag on the hearing impaired, and the old people can rag on the old people. Nothing nice or un-nice about.
Ah, how about wrong? I cannot see any sort of occasion that could excuse anyone of a "rag" on another. Sounds a lot like "Nag". That's my perception.
Next thing you know some folks will be putting up slide shows of their vacations.
And?
So, I'm offering some folks their own mailing list.
Well, I for one don't want it.
Is there no joy, fun or the juice of life and being alive in you? Your life must be free from fun, pretty damn miserable and I feel for ya and those around ya. But, I don't want to like ya.
Take that up with your Creator... that someone has been you in the past, doesn't want to be you in the present and had to work some to get clued in. Life is good ...all the time. Inmates chant that to open services, in one huge basso voice. That puts things into their true perspectives. Even when it all goes completely in the bucket.
It's merely a choice, to be miserable or to grab some fun and joy in the middle of all the crap and go with it for the sake of those you claim to love, if not just for yourself. I screwed the pooch in like fashion and I can tell you, it wasn't worth it. Not one darned bit, over a bunch of "shoulds" and expectations of others.
I hope for your sake that you chose the latter as tomorrow is not promised. Suppose this rant was the last thing you did. Would you be proud? Would it have been worth it? I don't think so. How about we both loosen up and agree that there is middle ground to both our behaviors and let it go like that? I'll behave... some. Ric
There is such a thing as too much of a "good" thing. Just ask the contestant of the recent Wii promotion by a radio station.
A line or two of OT stuff on a technical list is fine. Even an occasional paragraph is OK. But recently I've found myself having to wade through too much crud only to find out that someone really had nothing to say. I have better ways to waste my time.
If folks want to continue to do this, especially in a high volume list, they could at least have the courtesy to start marking their paragraphs <OT>, </OT>.
On Friday 26 January 2007 04:18, Les wrote: [...] OT
Do you know how to "shape" the springs on the centrifugal advance, or how to control the curve on the vacuum advance?
Yup, been there, done that. Most effective on an old Nash Ambassador big 6. 115mph@19mpg, 70mph@22mpg, whupass on any flathead ford in town. Hard on rings though when you push that engine above 7000 revs. 4 3/8" stroke=4500+fps piston speed=broken rings. Guaranteed. /OT
On Fri January 26 2007, Ric Moore wrote:
Let us all know how it goes, they came onto the scene with a pile of press and then seemed to fade out there for awhile. The LSB has a pile of great aims and goals that could bring about a serious threat to the Windoze World. I personally believe Fedora and RH will bring these improvements into a state of being. I'm looking forward to it. Ric
Booted in to the live-CD - got to the login screen and nothing worked. Tried to find some info in the release notes, the download page, etc... Not so auspicious... Didn't spend too much time on it, so I could have missed something.
If you'd like to try a real nice distro that is Fedora Core 6 based, and is consolidating the repos into one big repo with all packages checked for consistency and dependencies before they get in, you might want to check out Jeff Moe's blag - he includes packages from Fedora Core, Fedora Extras, freshrpms, Dries, ATrpms, livna, Planet CCRMA, plus his "own special brews" This is Fedora Core with a special tilt towards the content creation community - he has made an attempt to build most of the graphics, video editing, audio, and the like packages for Fedora, some of which are not so readily available such as Lives and Jahshaka. He follows the same philosophy as Fedora as regards no "non-free" software, but all the usual channels for such still work. It's a nice Fedora derivative that improves some areas that may be of interest to some special interests...
Getting back to the subject of this thread - IT behemoths have short life spans - we, as humans, tend to think in the now, but step back a few steps and one can think of many seemingly unchallengeable giants that have fallen. Time will tell, but as alternatives become more and more viable, I think M$ silly tactics such as the one referred in the link just serve to point to their vulnerability. I use their product every day - the business that pays my keep writes software to enhance or make up for deficiencies in MS - I don't participate in the MS bashing that rages endlessly - I even think their product is quite good in many respects, but, the corporate culture of MS, and their greed, and the reprehensible tactics they have often employed towards their competition, are what I object to. They're technology is also intrinsically inferior, for those reasons, in my view, and Linux has them beat in many areas. I think Linux will continue to mature because it has a superior development model, safe-computing model, and a much more likable "non-corporate" culture - when ease-of-installation/ease-of-use/technological-parity issues narrow a bit more, MS is going to find itself in deep-kimchee (sp?), caused by their own arrogance/greed. Linux will succeed or fail based in part on its own merits, but, it also will depend on the success of the model. There's no participating in MS products - you pay, you use, you complain - that's pretty much it. Linux depends on its users' participation - constructive criticism is one thing, but endless bitching about problems from a distance, without participation in the process of development, on whatever level, is what can undermine it.
OK - what made me climb on that soapbox????
On Fri, 2007-01-26 at 04:46 -0500, Ric Moore wrote:
On Fri, 2007-01-26 at 14:53 +0800, Ed Greshko wrote:
Ric Moore wrote:
That wasn't nice. "old age stories"? Ric
Yes it is....
Nice?
Blind people can rag on blind people, the hearing impaired can rag on the hearing impaired, and the old people can rag on the old people. Nothing nice or un-nice about.
Ah, how about wrong? I cannot see any sort of occasion that could excuse anyone of a "rag" on another. Sounds a lot like "Nag". That's my perception.
Next thing you know some folks will be putting up slide shows of their vacations.
And?
So, I'm offering some folks their own mailing list.
Well, I for one don't want it.
Is there no joy, fun or the juice of life and being alive in you? Your life must be free from fun, pretty damn miserable and I feel for ya and those around ya. But, I don't want to like ya.
---- as expressed in a private e-mail to you...
It's not your off topic comments because they are original and often quite entertaining. It's the people that want to pile on to your comments containing none of your wit, none of your originality (i.e. quoting from a book) and thus morph a thread of some value to the list readers into a thread of diminishing value.
Craig
On Fri, 2007-01-26 at 18:11 +0800, Ed Greshko wrote:
There is such a thing as too much of a "good" thing. Just ask the contestant of the recent Wii promotion by a radio station.
A line or two of OT stuff on a technical list is fine. Even an occasional paragraph is OK. But recently I've found myself having to wade through too much crud only to find out that someone really had nothing to say. I have better ways to waste my time.
If folks want to continue to do this, especially in a high volume list, they could at least have the courtesy to start marking their paragraphs <OT>, </OT>.
You are totally right on that point. I agree and apologize for that. Note, I marked this as such. If this had been your point to start with, it would not have escalated. Compromise is about that, all the time, when it's critique and not criticism. You point is well taken. Ric
On Fri, 2007-01-26 at 07:46 -0700, Craig White wrote:
On Fri, 2007-01-26 at 04:46 -0500, Ric Moore wrote:
On Fri, 2007-01-26 at 14:53 +0800, Ed Greshko wrote:
Ric Moore wrote:
That wasn't nice. "old age stories"? Ric
Yes it is....
Nice?
Blind people can rag on blind people, the hearing impaired can rag on the hearing impaired, and the old people can rag on the old people. Nothing nice or un-nice about.
Ah, how about wrong? I cannot see any sort of occasion that could excuse anyone of a "rag" on another. Sounds a lot like "Nag". That's my perception.
Next thing you know some folks will be putting up slide shows of their vacations.
And?
So, I'm offering some folks their own mailing list.
Well, I for one don't want it.
Is there no joy, fun or the juice of life and being alive in you? Your life must be free from fun, pretty damn miserable and I feel for ya and those around ya. But, I don't want to like ya.
as expressed in a private e-mail to you...
It's not your off topic comments because they are original and often quite entertaining. It's the people that want to pile on to your comments containing none of your wit, none of your originality (i.e. quoting from a book) and thus morph a thread of some value to the list readers into a thread of diminishing value.
He asked that we mark such off-topic posts <OT> and that point is perfectly valid. I apologize for not doing so. We used <TID> in the Caldera list for "Thread is Deteriorating" for folks with the filters to use to keep the noise level down. That worked and it would be better if we did the same here using <OT> and then those of us more socially inclined can post our personal snippets without offending those who do not wish to join in. Perfectly sensible. Ric
On Fri, 2007-01-26 at 08:58 -0500, Claude Jones wrote: BIG SNIP!!
OK - what made me climb on that soapbox????
Hey, Claude, it was a good climb, and pretty much matches my own thoughts, except I do (occasionally?) bash MS. The software bully has cost me many good hours out of my life and many good photos, articles and so forth when it would crash, two times erasing the backup disk. Not nice!! Yes, I know, unmount or move the backup, but a slip at the wrong time, especially with MS can be fatal, and my memory is not what it used to be.
Regards, Les H
On Fri January 26 2007, Ric Moore wrote:
Let us all know how it goes, they came onto the scene with a pile of press and then seemed to fade out there for awhile. The LSB has a pile of great aims and goals that could bring about a serious threat to the Windoze World. I personally believe Fedora and RH will bring these improvements into a state of being. I'm looking forward to it. Ric
A little more on Freespire. I got Alpha 3 up this eve. There's not a whole lot to say. It's very early beta still - it took a bit of chicanery to get in - had to Ctl-Alt-F2, enter root w/ no password, get a prompt, type 'passwd', enter a password twice, then Ctl-Alt-F7 back to the log in screen, put in root as user and the new password I'd just created. It didn't properly detect my NVidia capabilities and only offered 1024X768 with no options to go higher; tried a WM file from CNN's site, and I could get past the WM version dialog, but the pop-up window just kept endless cycling connecting messages without playing the video; tried a flash site and Flash9 is installed and running; tried Java but it wasn't installed; there seemed to be no package manager offered so I went to the terminal and ran 'apt-get update' and then 'apt install synaptic' and that worked - poked around there for awhile but couldn't find the win32 codecs. The menus are barebones - just a few programs installed with a heavy emphasis on KDE - the look is nice and slick - it did, by the way, offer to set up user accounts along the way, and upon reading the faq, it is the case that Freespire will default to using traditional Linux user accounts and running as root will NOT be encouraged.
So, that's a short report - nothing really jumped off the page. Presumably, when it gets up and running, it will have access to the full 20,000+ packages in the CNR repos.
I find it curious, these attempts to 'dumb down' KDE. If you want to keep the underlying power of Linux away from neophytes who click on any button they can find, it seems to me that Gnome is tilted in that direction already - maybe it's a wrong impression. Everytime I open a Gnome desktop, I find it an exercise in frustration - the menu items aren't there, if you don't know the command, you're stuck because there's no way to find it without going to searches and google and such tactics. My impression is that the command-line folks like that aspect of Gnome - they can do everything they like to do, because it's all there, but no one else can do much but run the basic productivity software to use the computer - am I all wrong on this? KDE strikes me as going to the other end of scale, with very large lists of stuff on the menu, and every GUI tool for every command that's been made is offered up - now listen up all you guys and gals, this is not about criticizing one or the other, or challenging anyone's sacred beefsteak, it's just a personal observation I'm seeking to confirm. But, why take the KDE desktop manager as your default if you intend to strip all the stuff out of it? That's the Freespire approach, and as I recall, also Xandros - I also remember pressures on Warren over at MEPIS to go in the same direction - I just don't understand it.
And finally, there's this just come in over the wire: (it's a subscription service that offers free downloadable video clips, mostly news releases from Corporations, with a license to use the clips with very few restrictions - the following is an announcement from Intel)
Not since the late 1960s have computer chips seen as dramatic an improvement as Intel's new 45 nanometer (nm) transistors, Intel Co-founder Gordon Moore says. As part of this new technology breakthrough, Intel has announced it will use two new materials to build the insulating walls and switching gates of its 45nm transistors. Hundreds of millions of these microscopic transistors – or switches – will be inside the next generation Intel Core 2 Duo, Intel Core 2 Quad and Xeon families of multi-core processors. The company also said it has five early-version products up and running – the first of 15 45nm processor products planned from Intel. The early versions of the new chip will be targeted at different computer market segments including Windows Vista, Mac OS X, Windows XP and Linux operating systems.
This came in via my NewsMarket Alerts subscription and is accompanied by a downloadable video. It's interesting that they explicity mention that one of the first versions of the new chip will be targetted at Linux.
Craig White:
I don't recall Les ever sounding in on whether he logs into the GUI desktop as root - perhaps he does but I think not. I wouldn't know about Tim.
If he means me, hardly ever. About the only time I will is if a normal user couldn't log on - found that was due to not having sticky bits set on the /tmp directory after moving drives around, or immediately after installing a new system.
It strikes me as a lazy habit and once someone has settled in to this habit, they will not give it up easily.
I tend to agree, they also paint themselves into a corner. If *your* files are owned by root, you have to log on as root to access them.
For a while, now, the only thing I've needed to do as root is "yum update", every now and then. Which I do through "su -" in my CLI. Occasionally, it'll be a "yum install", or a reconfiguration of DNS records or the Apache server. But I can't think of any applications I use as root other than a text editor, for the purposes I just mentioned in the last sentence, and serviceconf.
It's clear that the reason that Windows sets the normal user account to superuser privileges because they want to appeal to the non-technical users who simply want to turn on a computer and start using it right away.
That, and there's just too much crap that won't work as a limited user.
The penalty for that is that this user must run firewalls that ask questions the user doesn't understand, employ anti-virus software that this user probably won't verify is being updated and hopefully
It gets me that things like you mention will let ordinary users configure them. Ordinary users shouldn't be able to change firewall rules, but they often can.
On Fri, 2007-01-26 at 14:59 -0500, Dmitriy Kropivnitskiy wrote:
Ric Moore wrote:
That wasn't nice. "old age stories"? Ric
Person who owned a car in 49 is objectively old :)
Suppose you were born in '49? (like me) I only got my AARP card 7 years ago. That's still young! I just don't look in the mirror when I shave anymore. :) Ric
Ric Moore wrote:
On Fri, 2007-01-26 at 14:59 -0500, Dmitriy Kropivnitskiy wrote:
Ric Moore wrote:
That wasn't nice. "old age stories"? Ric
Person who owned a car in 49 is objectively old :)
Suppose you were born in '49? (like me) I only got my AARP card 7 years ago. That's still young! I just don't look in the mirror when I shave anymore. :) Ric
A tree planted in '49 is not old and could be considered to be a long ways short of its prime.
On Thu, 2007-02-01 at 09:41 -0800, Norm wrote:
Ric Moore wrote:
On Fri, 2007-01-26 at 14:59 -0500, Dmitriy Kropivnitskiy wrote:
Ric Moore wrote:
That wasn't nice. "old age stories"? Ric
Person who owned a car in 49 is objectively old :)
Suppose you were born in '49? (like me) I only got my AARP card 7 years ago. That's still young! I just don't look in the mirror when I shave anymore. :) Ric
A tree planted in '49 is not old and could be considered to be a long ways short of its prime.
Statistically that is very true ... of trees. Any human born in '49 statistically has more life behind them than in front of them. Since this is to be my last incarnation here on Earth, I'm looking forward to suffering in 7 dimensions, in the next plane, instead of just 4. Read Edgar Cayce, we Scorpios are on our last turn of the wheel in this plane which is a festering cheese ball at times. We're off to Andromeda or somewhere equally "out there" for the next round of existences. I wonder what the computers will be like? God forbid, a NetLlama in 7 dimensions. Just imagine.
<cackles> So long, and thanks for all the BBQ. Ric
If this is indeed your last incarnation, do you mean specifically on the earth, or more generally in the physical dimension? :-)
- Dev.
Ric Moore wayward4now@gmail.com Sent by: fedora-list-bounces@redhat.com 02/02/2007 02:16 PM Please respond to For users of Fedora fedora-list@redhat.com
To For users of Fedora fedora-list@redhat.com cc
Subject Re: Getting people to say nice things about Microsoft (Linspire repo) <OT>
On Thu, 2007-02-01 at 09:41 -0800, Norm wrote:
Ric Moore wrote:
On Fri, 2007-01-26 at 14:59 -0500, Dmitriy Kropivnitskiy wrote:
Ric Moore wrote:
That wasn't nice. "old age stories"? Ric
Person who owned a car in 49 is objectively old :)
Suppose you were born in '49? (like me) I only got my AARP card 7
years
ago. That's still young! I just don't look in the mirror when I shave anymore. :) Ric
A tree planted in '49 is not old and could be considered to be a long ways short of its prime.
Statistically that is very true ... of trees. Any human born in '49 statistically has more life behind them than in front of them. Since this is to be my last incarnation here on Earth, I'm looking forward to suffering in 7 dimensions, in the next plane, instead of just 4. Read Edgar Cayce, we Scorpios are on our last turn of the wheel in this plane which is a festering cheese ball at times. We're off to Andromeda or somewhere equally "out there" for the next round of existences. I wonder what the computers will be like? God forbid, a NetLlama in 7 dimensions. Just imagine.
<cackles> So long, and thanks for all the BBQ. Ric
Sorry - you had clearly mentioned it is your last incarnation on the earth. However, physical incarnations are not pleasant in general............try and see if you can escape physical manifestation altogether - maybe incarnate between the psychic and causal dimensions unlike the rest of us, who do so between the physical and psychic dimensions. :-)
Dev Anshul dev.anshul@tcs.com Sent by: fedora-list-bounces@redhat.com 02/02/2007 02:27 PM Please respond to For users of Fedora fedora-list@redhat.com
To For users of Fedora fedora-list@redhat.com cc
Subject Re: Getting people to say nice things about Microsoft (Linspire repo) <OT>
If this is indeed your last incarnation, do you mean specifically on the earth, or more generally in the physical dimension? :-)
- Dev.
Ric Moore wayward4now@gmail.com Sent by: fedora-list-bounces@redhat.com 02/02/2007 02:16 PM
Please respond to For users of Fedora fedora-list@redhat.com
To For users of Fedora fedora-list@redhat.com cc
Subject Re: Getting people to say nice things about Microsoft (Linspire repo) <OT>
On Thu, 2007-02-01 at 09:41 -0800, Norm wrote:
Ric Moore wrote:
On Fri, 2007-01-26 at 14:59 -0500, Dmitriy Kropivnitskiy wrote:
Ric Moore wrote:
That wasn't nice. "old age stories"? Ric
Person who owned a car in 49 is objectively old :)
Suppose you were born in '49? (like me) I only got my AARP card 7
years
ago. That's still young! I just don't look in the mirror when I shave anymore. :) Ric
A tree planted in '49 is not old and could be considered to be a long ways short of its prime.
Statistically that is very true ... of trees. Any human born in '49 statistically has more life behind them than in front of them. Since this is to be my last incarnation here on Earth, I'm looking forward to suffering in 7 dimensions, in the next plane, instead of just 4. Read Edgar Cayce, we Scorpios are on our last turn of the wheel in this plane which is a festering cheese ball at times. We're off to Andromeda or somewhere equally "out there" for the next round of existences. I wonder what the computers will be like? God forbid, a NetLlama in 7 dimensions. Just imagine.
<cackles> So long, and thanks for all the BBQ. Ric
On Fri, 2007-02-02 at 14:27 +0530, Dev Anshul wrote:
If this is indeed your last incarnation, do you mean specifically on the earth, or more generally in the physical dimension? :-)
Wow! Good question! I better check! <grins> The way I understood Cayce we incarnate here on Earth through the progressions of the Zodiac. Once you hit Scorpio, it's the last dance on Earth and then you go to experience another round of incarnations where there are more dimensions to experience someplace else, just not here. It's interesting stuff. Something to ponder while idling away beating on my computer trying to get a stupid video to work. So, it would be both, here on Earth and in this physical dimension. I figure I wore the Orange in my last life and am making up for it in this! Just what does a Margi do in the life he has to come back to? I figure he'll have some beer, steaks and french fries. <grins hugely> No wonder the Dali Lama laughs so much! He knows! He's happy as a clam, so am I! To all the Scorps on this list, we're outa here! Even Jesus said it, "Death, where is thy sting?" So, there isn't one. Life has got the stinger. Enjoy it when it's good. Ric
================================================ My father, Victor Moore (Vic) used to say: "There are two Great Sins in the world... ..the Sin of Ignorance, and the Sin of Stupidity. Only the former may be overcome." R.I.P. Dad. Linux user# 44256 Sign up at: http://counter.li.org/ http://www.sourceforge.net/projects/oar http://www.wayward4now.net ================================================
It is interesting, though, the manner in which an ordinary person perceives ease and the way a yogi would - the beer, steaks and french fries, or the easy life as most people know it, is what an ordinary person seeks, and I belong to the same category. :-) However, even though a yogi undergoes struggles and hardships in life, they affect his mind much lesser, because he has an attitude of ease, not one of struggle, conflict and disharmony, which is what really ruins it - these difficulties are manifested additionally at an internal level for most of us. This concept of ease is wonderful - having the attitude of a witness reduces internal manifestation of difficulties - once the mind isn't involved, but only a witness, things start seeming easier, even though one may be putting in an equal amount of effort as before. :-)
Ric Moore wayward4now@gmail.com Sent by: fedora-list-bounces@redhat.com 02/02/2007 03:26 PM Please respond to For users of Fedora fedora-list@redhat.com
To For users of Fedora fedora-list@redhat.com cc
Subject Re: Getting people to say nice things about Microsoft (Linspire repo) <OT>
On Fri, 2007-02-02 at 14:27 +0530, Dev Anshul wrote:
If this is indeed your last incarnation, do you mean specifically on the earth, or more generally in the physical dimension? :-)
Wow! Good question! I better check! <grins> The way I understood Cayce we incarnate here on Earth through the progressions of the Zodiac. Once you hit Scorpio, it's the last dance on Earth and then you go to experience another round of incarnations where there are more dimensions to experience someplace else, just not here. It's interesting stuff. Something to ponder while idling away beating on my computer trying to get a stupid video to work. So, it would be both, here on Earth and in this physical dimension. I figure I wore the Orange in my last life and am making up for it in this! Just what does a Margi do in the life he has to come back to? I figure he'll have some beer, steaks and french fries. <grins hugely> No wonder the Dali Lama laughs so much! He knows! He's happy as a clam, so am I! To all the Scorps on this list, we're outa here! Even Jesus said it, "Death, where is thy sting?" So, there isn't one. Life has got the stinger. Enjoy it when it's good. Ric
================================================ My father, Victor Moore (Vic) used to say: "There are two Great Sins in the world... ...the Sin of Ignorance, and the Sin of Stupidity. Only the former may be overcome." R.I.P. Dad. Linux user# 44256 Sign up at: http://counter.li.org/ http://www.sourceforge.net/projects/oar http://www.wayward4now.net ================================================
On Sun, 28 Jan 2007, Ric Moore wrote:
Person who owned a car in 49 is objectively old :)
Suppose you were born in '49? (like me) I only got my AARP card 7 years ago. That's still young! I just don't look in the mirror when I shave anymore. :) Ric
Heh, I solved that problem by growing a beard.
-- Boring Home Page - http://www.webtrek.com/joe See my blog, sumo game ranks and other interesting junk
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