7:58 p.m.
Terry - Fedora Core wrote:
No this is not to rant against Fedora Core and praise Kubuntu. I like
both for different reasons and dislike both for different reasons.
Overall I like both far more than I dislike either. The dislikes are
really, really small in comparison to other OSs.
Both have a lot to offer anybody that takes the time to learn a little
and use them.
I tried Fedora Core and Kubuntu simply because the place where I got
the new computer preferred Kubuntu (but would not install) and the
place where I purchased the old computer used to use Fedora Core only
and now installs either Fedora Core or Kubuntu, the customer's decision.
What I really, really, really like about Fedora Core:
1. Everything is there - I first downloaded a Live CD (both Kubuntu
Gutsy and Fedora Core 8). Tried both. Fedora Core also has an
entire distribution on a DVD. Didn't even try to download the
multi-GB DVD so ordered from OSDisks (install and source DVDs).
With Kubuntu, no DVD is available that I could find, just the
Live CD. So while waiting for the Fedora DVD I installed Kubuntu
from the Live CD and spent about 2 weeks working with it and
getting it to the point hat I had downloaded nearly everything I
thought I needed.
With Fedora, that 2 to 3 week period was collapsed to a few days
installing from the DVD. Also, I am pretty sure from past
experience with FC 5, that very little will be needed to be
downloaded to supplement what I now have. That saves me hours
and days and a lot of frustration when I get a message that such
and such file is missing. What file? Where is it? What package
is it in? That last question can be a killer. Without a detailed
list of files in all packages, finding a specific file can be
arduous and time consuming. I am pretty sure that I have
circumvented that with the Fedora Core method and that I like a
LOT.
2. I can have BOTH Gnome and KDE and have them both from the
initial install (once I learned how to do that on the second
install - if the installation instructions would just state how
to do that :-) ). I prefer KDE for most of my work. However, I
find that I also like some of the features of Gnome. Being able
to use both by simply logging out and logging back in with the
other environment is easy and quick. A method of switching
without even logging out would be of tremendous value to me and
I bet to a lot of people. Not too sure if (K)Ubuntu can be made
to do the same thing. Every time I try Gnome and KDE, KDE just
feels like a more mature, more polished product. The little
things make the big difference - like being able to use the
middle and right mouse buttons to increase window size
vertically or horizontally separately. Also, when moving a
window to the side, under KDE it kind of stops and clicks into
the side of the desktop. I don't have to finagle with getting it
there. Little things like that make a big difference in
usability and are really noticed at first, but fade into the
background until you have to use Gnome (or even worse
Windows!!). Now I really don't hate Gnome, just that I prefer
KDE most of the time, both are really great desktop environments.
3. Other than the way that SELinux seems to have messed up things
until I set it to "permissive mode", almost everything in Fedora
Core 8 worked after the install (at least the second install
:-) ). There weren't any of those little gotcha's that such and
such isn't installed for that to work, install such and such a
package - see point 1 above. OK, I had some problems, but
nothing that hasn't worked out with a little intelligence.
4. It's a Linux distro - that counts for LOT.
What I don't like about Fedora Core: (this is really in comparison to
Kubuntu):
1. I spent a lot of money to get a really good h/w video, the
NVidia GeForce 8600 with lots of MB of onboard cache. Under
Kubuntu I used apt to download and install the NVidia
proprietary 3D drivers. I was informed of this right from the
get-go after installation and even assisted with a taskbar icon
for the proprietary driver and informed of it's proprietary
nature. Does the fact that it is proprietary bother me - not at
all - I spent a lot of money on their h/w so why not use it
fully with s/w they provide for me to do that. It is free as in
beer (well after having bought the h/w it is :-) ) ? Under
Fedora Core, I don't know if there is a way to do that. Ok,
principles are great, but being pragmatic works very, very well
also. Is this a tie-breaker between the two - certainly not.
Just one of those little niggles like the above difference
between KDE and Gnome.
2. The SELinux default install caused me a LOT of grief. Is there a
way to fix the problem? I have no idea. I know essentially
nothing about SELinux and no interest in devoting a lot of time
in learning enough to answer the question. At this point I am
only interested in learning whether I have to keep it
essentially turned off in permissive mode or can change
something to get it into enabled mode and not have lock my
computer down to the point that I cannot use it. Do other
distro's use SELinux or is Fedora Core the only one and how
essential is SELinux to the operation of my computer and it's
health and well being?? Don't know enough to answer.
Other than that I really cannot think of anything else yet after 3
days of installing and 1 partial day of use.
Terry
i use my F8 box for lots of things, and SE-Linux stays quiet. what sort
of errors are you getting?
8:40 p.m.
On Thu, 07 Feb 2008 19:43:18 -0500
Terry - Fedora Core <fastsnip-fedora(a)yahoo.com> wrote:
That saves me hours and days and a lot of frustration when I get a
message that such and such file is missing. What file? Where is it? What package is it in?
Yea, we've been fooling with ubuntu and debian at work, and more often
than not, when I find something missing from the minimal network
install, I go over to a fedora system, find out what rpm it came from
there, then search for packages with similar names using the synaptic
tool on ubuntu (which is a whole other problem with ubuntu - there
is an easy to find Add/Remove programs menu entry which seems to run
some absolutely worthless app that can't find anything you might
want to install - meanwhile buried over in the administration menu
is a cryptic entry for "Synaptic" which is actually the useful tool,
but there is no real way to tell that :-).
Other than the way that SELinux seems to have messed up things until
I set it to "permissive mode"
My cardinal rule is disable selinux completely during the install when
it asks then, just to be sure, edit /boot/grub/grub.conf and add
a selinux=0 kernel parameter :-).
I spent a lot of money to get a really good h/w video, the NVidia
GeForce 8600 with lots of MB of onboard cache. Under Kubuntu I used apt to download and
install the NVidia proprietary 3D drivers. I was informed of this right from the get-go
after installation and even assisted with a taskbar icon for the proprietary driver and
informed of it's proprietary nature.
Yea, livna and atrpms and similar repos make it easy to install drivers
on fedora, but discovering that such repos exist is purely a matter of
accident, nothing a novice user sees is likely to lead to them. If you
happen to read the mailing lists and happen to see references to "livna"
and happen to get curious about what a "livna" is and happen to search
for it on google, then you discover this useful resource, otherwise you
just fume about what a pain video drivers are :-).
9:18 p.m.
----------------------------------------
Date: Thu, 7 Feb 2008 21:40:25 -0500
From: tom.horsley(a)att.net
To: fedora-list(a)redhat.com
Subject: Re: Impressions so far with FC 8 and Kubuntu Gutsy
On Thu, 07 Feb 2008 19:43:18 -0500
Terry - Fedora Core wrote:
> That saves me hours and days and a lot of frustration when I get a message that such
and such file is missing. What file? Where is it? What package is it in?
Yea, we've been fooling with ubuntu and debian at work, and more often
than not, when I find something missing from the minimal network
install, I go over to a fedora system, find out what rpm it came from
there, then search for packages with similar names using the synaptic
tool on ubuntu (which is a whole other problem with ubuntu - there
is an easy to find Add/Remove programs menu entry which seems to run
some absolutely worthless app that can't find anything you might
want to install - meanwhile buried over in the administration menu
is a cryptic entry for "Synaptic" which is actually the useful tool,
but there is no real way to tell that :-).
> Other than the way that SELinux seems to have messed up things until I set it to
"permissive mode"
My cardinal rule is disable selinux completely during the install when
it asks then, just to be sure, edit /boot/grub/grub.conf and add
a selinux=0 kernel parameter :-).
> I spent a lot of money to get a really good h/w video, the NVidia GeForce 8600 with
lots of MB of onboard cache. Under Kubuntu I used apt to download and install the NVidia
proprietary 3D drivers. I was informed of this right from the get-go after installation
and even assisted with a taskbar icon for the proprietary driver and informed of it's
proprietary nature.
Yea, livna and atrpms and similar repos make it easy to install drivers
on fedora, but discovering that such repos exist is purely a matter of
accident, nothing a novice user sees is likely to lead to them. If you
happen to read the mailing lists and happen to see references to "livna"
and happen to get curious about what a "livna" is and happen to search
for it on google, then you discover this useful resource, otherwise you
just fume about what a pain video drivers are :-).
--
Yes I find this is an interesting point too. I had no idea about other repos and I've
been playing for a while with this game. I only kinda knew about freshrpms so I was able
to go hunting there plus help with google search helped too. I only found out about linva
recently, and the headaches in the differences are an issue as well. I understand the
Fedora philosophy and I agree with it, but some things are better kept simpler.
I'm not an Ubuntu supporter as such (except their support has been most useful for
nearly all open source problems), but the way in which they have handled the licensing
issue I found most useful. They only open up the free software, but you can switch on
other repos which do contain "grey" software simply in the repo manager.
I put this question out there for free comment, but couldn't something similar be
arranged in Fedora? (thereby making it the most stable yet flexible system on the planet!
;p)
_________________________________________________________________
New music from the Rogue Traders - listen now!
http://ninemsn.com.au/share/redir/adTrack.asp?mode=click&clientID=832...
11:18 p.m.
On Fri, 2008-02-08 at 03:18 +0000, Da Rock wrote:
Yes I find this is an interesting point too. I had no idea about
other repos and I've been playing for a while with this game. I only kinda knew about
freshrpms so I was able to go hunting there plus help with google search helped too. I
only found out about linva recently, and the headaches in the differences are an issue as
well. I understand the Fedora philosophy and I agree with it, but some things are better
kept simpler.
I'm not an Ubuntu supporter as such (except their support has been most useful for
nearly all open source problems), but the way in which they have handled the licensing
issue I found most useful.
Useful != ethical. The Fedora Project is based on Free software - and
not like beer. Free software is the lifeblood of the Project. The
second the Fedora Project starts compromising on Free vs. commercial, it
will lose a ton of community support.
They only open up the free software, but you can switch on other
repos which do contain "grey" software simply in the repo manager.
And thereby totally piss on the ethos of Free Software and the Fedora
Project.
I put this question out there for free comment, but couldn't
something similar be arranged in Fedora? (thereby making it the most stable yet flexible
system on the planet! ;p)
Sure, let's flush the Fedora Project's ideals down the toilet cause it's
easier to use proprietary, non free software. Oh, and while we're at
it, let's open up Red Hat to lawsuits because some poor guy somewhere
followed the Fedora Project instructions and downloaded a codec at work
and got his company sued by the BSA. That'd be *great* for the Fedora
Project.
For both idealistic and pragmatic reasons, the Fedora Project does not
include non-free software or give instructions on how to use software
which is non-free or potentially illegal.
See http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Multimedia/MP3 for more info,
including a way to have a perfectly legal mp3 codec at zero cost under
Fedora.
It's the Right Thing To Do(TM), and I hope that the project never
sacrifices its ethics to take the easy route.
Cheers,
Thomas
2:07 a.m.
On Thu, 2008-02-07 at 19:43 -0500, Terry - Fedora Core wrote:
What I don't like about Fedora Core: (this is really in
comparison to
Kubuntu):
1. Under Kubuntu I used apt to download and install the NVidia
proprietary 3D drivers. I was informed of this right from the
get-go after installation and even assisted ... Under Fedora
Core, I don't know if there is a way to do that.
A simple internet search, or asking questions in places like this, will
find out that you can resolve such issues from the Livna repo, or
another repo (ATRPMs, I think), or get a driver directly from NVidia,
themselves (though that tends to have some problems). Look at Livna,
read about it, there's explanations about why and how.
1. The SELinux default install caused me a LOT of grief. ...
At
this point I am only interested in learning whether I have to
keep it essentially turned off in permissive mode or can
change something to get it into enabled mode and not have lock
my computer down to the point that I cannot use it.
If you're never going to use it, then turn it completely off. Forget
about the dire warning about having to relabel. If you're not using it,
the labels don't matter. And if you do, later on, decide you want to
use it, you can simply relabel. It takes a while, but I've done so
without much pain.
Putting it into permissive means that it's running, and *supposedly*
allowing everything (in the past, it's been proved to still manage to
block some things), and logging what happens. It's a test mode, it
allows you to get something working and work out what you'd need to
change to allow things to work under normal conditions. If you're not
testing, there's little point using it in this manner. It doesn't
protect you from anything, and can still cause problems.
If you can resolve the problem, or an update does it for you, then you'd
leave it on in the enforcing mode.
Do other distro's use SELinux
Yes.
how essential is SELinux to the operation of my computer and
it's
health and well being??
It isn't essential, but it's definitely an aid against some problems.
Like all technical solutions, it's not an absolute solution, it's
another link in the chain.
I haven't tried FC8 yet, but haven't had a problem with SELinux since
about FC3. So, if the problem's not just down to your system, I'd
expect that the issue will be resolved soonish. If the issues to do
with your setup, then someone may be able to help you when enough
information passes through.
--
(This computer runs FC7, my others run FC4, FC5 & FC6, in case that's
important to the thread.)
Don't send private replies to my address, the mailbox is ignored.
I read messages from the public lists.
3:59 a.m.
Tom Horsley wrote:
Yea, livna and atrpms and similar repos make it easy to install
drivers on fedora, but discovering that such repos exist is purely a
matter of accident, nothing a novice user sees is likely to lead to
them. If you happen to read the mailing lists and happen to see
references to "livna" and happen to get curious about what a "livna"
is and happen to search for it on google, then you discover this
useful resource, otherwise you just fume about what a pain video
drivers are :-).
Well, some users might think to google for fedora nvidia. Those lucky
folks would find the answers they need very quickly.
Those who would fume and flail without using google perhaps deserve to
a bit. Yes, I'm a bit of a bastard when I think of people that are
too clueless to know how to google. ;)
(Tom, I don't mean to direct that at you in any way. :)
--
Todd OpenPGP -> KeyID: 0xBEAF0CE3 | URL: www.pobox.com/~tmz/pgp
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
It is hard to fight an enemy who has outposts in your head.
-- Sally Kempton
12:05 p.m.
Sorry - I did NOT mean to turn this into a rant for or against anything.
I LIKE Fedora and I LIKE (K)Ubuntu. I LIKE Linux and FOSS.
They are there for different folks and different reasons.
Flaming people who think slightly differently isn't going to make them
think the same as you do.
Flame on.
1:15 p.m.
Terry - Fedora Core wrote:
1. That saves me hours and days and a lot of frustration when I get
a message that such and such file is missing. What file? Where
is it? What package is it in? That last question can be a killer.
Sure. One of my favorite features of yum is that it can do
"localinstall"s, and resolve dependencies for you, and that it can
install a package based on its name, the name of something that the
package "provides", or a file in the package. It's taken all of the
work out of dependency resolution.
1. The little things make the big difference - like being able to
use the middle and right mouse buttons to increase window size
vertically or horizontally separately.
I'm not longer intimately familiar with KDE. Under Gnome (with
metacity), you can use Alt + middle mouse button to resize windows. If
the mouse is near a corner, you'll resize the window in either
dimension. If it's closer to the center of any edge, you'll only move
that edge. It' should be trivial to resize a window vertically, or
horizontally, or both at the same time.
1. Also, when moving a window to the side, under KDE it kind of
stops and clicks into the side of the desktop. I don't have to
finagle with getting it there.
Metacity does the same thing here. On my multi-monitor desktop, they
"click" against the edge between the two displays, too. Are you using
Compiz? I've tried it a couple of times, and keep going back to metacity.
1. Other than the way that SELinux seems to have messed up things
until I set it to "permissive mode", almost everything in Fedora
Core 8 worked after the install (at least the second install
:-) ). There weren't any of those little gotcha's that such and
such isn't installed for that to work, install such and such a
package - see point 1 above. OK, I had some problems, but
nothing that hasn't worked out with a little intelligence.
Take notes on what's broken, and share them here. There's no shortage
of developers who really want SELinux to "just work". I've been running
SELinux in enforcing mode on all of my desktops and servers for some
time now.
1. Does the fact that it is proprietary bother me - not at all - I
spent a lot of money on their h/w so why not use it fully with
s/w they provide for me to do that.
It's a question of values: Why should it be that you can only use the
software fully if you run their proprietary software? After all, I can
use my AMD CPUs fully without anything special or proprietary from AMD.
It /should/ bother you that their software is proprietary. It should
bother you all the more because you've paid them a lot of money. You're
their customer. The money that they have is the money that you've given
them, and they won't tell you how your video card works? Why do
business with people who treat you that way?
I'm not going to go as far as to say that Fedora should actively prevent
loading software that isn't Free, but their commitment to Free Software
is what makes the distribution so worthy of our support. Aside from
Debian, I don't believe that there's any significant distribution with a
comparable commitment to the goals and ideals that got us where we are
today.
1. It is free as in beer (well after having bought the h/w it is
:-) ) ? Under Fedora Core, I don't know if there is a way to do
that. Ok, principles are great, but being pragmatic works very,
very well also.
There's a certain amount of pragmatism involved... Red Hat faces real
legal issues if they distribute software in violation of its license, or
of patent law. Neither Red Hat nor the community can properly diagnose
bugs when software that guards its operation is running in kernel mode.
Red Hat and Fedora are better off for not including proprietary
software, and we're better off not buying hardware that requires it, for
pragmatic reasons.
5:33 p.m.
On 08/02/2008, Terry - Fedora Core <fastsnip-fedora(a)yahoo.com> wrote:
While I feel that Fedora is my "home" distro, on my everyday work
lappy I've been using Ubuntu 7.04 for over six months now. I found
that Fedora was a bit too unstable (things breaking after updates),
and that updates were large and common. For that reason and the codecs
issue, whenever I erase someone's XP I install Ubuntu (and I refuse to
install dual boot systems). In Ubuntu one can OK OK OK his way to a
playing MP3, a streaming video, or a Java install.
That said, Ubuntu feels like a toy OS. Apt-get does not tell what
versions it's installing, and the whole system reeks of
idiot-proofness. And that's with KDE! The online forum and mailing
list is more for MS bashing than problem solving. While I think that
there is a need for that type of distro, I'm sometimes a bit embarased
that I'm using it. So I always keep Fedora on at least one machine,
like a summer house that I know is waiting for me. Even if I don't get
there every day.
Dotan Cohen
http://what-is-what.com
http://gibberish.co.il
א-ב-ג-ד-ה-ו-ז-ח-ט-י-ך-כ-ל-ם-מ-ן-נ-ס-ע-ף-פ-ץ-צ-ק-ר-ש-ת
A: Because it messes up the order in which people normally read text.
Q: Why is top-posting such a bad thing?
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9 comments
9 participants
participants (9)
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Brian Chadwick -
Da Rock -
Dotan Cohen -
Gordon Messmer -
Terry - Fedora Core -
thomas cameron -
Tim -
Todd Zullinger -
Tom Horsley