Hi guys,
Just wanted to share what a friend of mine has just experienced, which just adds & matches my experience - you can take it as warning in a way, if you too jumped on that bandwagon of (fake) Lenovo euphoria towards support, in generic terms, for Linux by the company - which is BAD across the board.
I'm experiencing sleep/resume issue with my Lenovo two laptops, same problem my friend sees, only he did file a support request to Lenovo. So if you still have any hopes, then have no doubts, here is Lenovo/IBM's replay:
"..Linux operating systems are out of our scope, as we support only Windows. Please contact Ubuntu support to resolve the problem.."
In that reply you will find an insult added to the injury if you read closely - IBM who does (some)support for Lenovo who, not that very but still recently purchased RedHat.
My next laptop purchase I'll make extra effort to find some of those smaller manufacturer who hopefully are genuine Linux supporters, might as well give them a chance.
best wishes, L.
On Sat, Apr 03, 2021 at 10:00:56AM +0100, lejeczek via users wrote:
So if you still have any hopes, then have no doubts, here is Lenovo/IBM's replay:
"..Linux operating systems are out of our scope, as we support only Windows. Please contact Ubuntu support to resolve the problem.."
I can't speak for Lenovo, but I do have a question: was this about a laptop sold with Fedora Workstation preinstalled? Lenovo _does_ have support for Linux (and Fedora Workstation in specific) on those models, but does not provide official support for Linux on the models which they do not sell that way.
This doesn't seem like a joke to me -- it seems pretty reasonable, really. I've seen firsthand the work that it takes to actually get a laptop to the point where Lenovo feels comfortable calling it supported, and it is not at all trivial.
If you got this response in attempting to get support on a laptop sold as having Fedora Linux, please give me more details (off-list, if you like) and I will escalate with my Lenovo contacts, who will certainly want to know that this is happening.
If it _is_ an unsupported laptop, you may still get _informal_ support from Lenovo at their Linux Operating Systems > Fedora forum at https://forums.lenovo.com/t5/Fedora/bd-p/lx04_en. Actual technical people who know what they're talking about read and reply there. (But, again, since it's not official, it's on a best-effort basis so coming in with anger probably won't get you good results.)
On 03/04/2021 15:03, Matthew Miller wrote:
On Sat, Apr 03, 2021 at 10:00:56AM +0100, lejeczek via users wrote:
So if you still have any hopes, then have no doubts, here is Lenovo/IBM's replay:
"..Linux operating systems are out of our scope, as we support only Windows. Please contact Ubuntu support to resolve the problem.."
I can't speak for Lenovo, but I do have a question: was this about a laptop sold with Fedora Workstation preinstalled? Lenovo _does_ have support for Linux (and Fedora Workstation in specific) on those models, but does not provide official support for Linux on the models which they do not sell that way.
This doesn't seem like a joke to me -- it seems pretty reasonable, really. I've seen firsthand the work that it takes to actually get a laptop to the point where Lenovo feels comfortable calling it supported, and it is not at all trivial.
If you got this response in attempting to get support on a laptop sold as having Fedora Linux, please give me more details (off-list, if you like) and I will escalate with my Lenovo contacts, who will certainly want to know that this is happening.
If it _is_ an unsupported laptop, you may still get _informal_ support from Lenovo at their Linux Operating Systems > Fedora forum at https://forums.lenovo.com/t5/Fedora/bd-p/lx04_en. Actual technical people who know what they're talking about read and reply there. (But, again, since it's not official, it's on a best-effort basis so coming in with anger probably won't get you good results.)
Nowhere I suggested that anything about OS/hardware is trivial nor I would expect anybody who has basic knowledge about computers, to think this is trivial. Officially supported or not does not matter. Point I was making, I make is - do not succumb to that almost euphoric state which some expressed at the news given publicly by Lenovo about them beginning to support Linux, because they decided to sell couple of models in US with Linux. I've seen, I think many remember too, with Dell, them too a few years ago announced they would start to offer Ubuntu and we know how it ended, I think with one single model sold with Ubuntu.
These are, both Dell & Lenovo but others, multi-billion dollar companies and if one friendly advise I may share here, it will be - no need to make excuses for them nor explain them.
And perhaps, if a secondary point was also hidden in my message - research other, smaller HW vendors if they might offer Linux more serious approach, I know I will, that's all.
cheer, L
On 4/3/21 10:48 AM, lejeczek via users wrote:
I've seen, I think many remember too, with Dell, them too a few years ago announced they would start to offer Ubuntu and we know how it ended, I think with one single model sold with Ubuntu.
There are currently at least six laptop models and at least six workstations sold with GNU/Linux OS:
https://www.dell.com/en-us/work/shop/overview/cp/linuxsystems
Small numbers compared to their enormous portfolio, but more than enough for my tastes.
On 4/3/21 2:00 AM, lejeczek via users wrote:
I'm experiencing sleep/resume issue with my Lenovo two laptops, same problem my friend sees, only he did file a support request to Lenovo.
Which models? And what is the problem?
A friend of mine just purchased a Thinkpad Nano, and it's consuming more power than expected when suspended. Seems to not be reaching PC10 state. He has an open case with Lenovo, and they're actively troubleshooting that issue. It's not resolved yet, but they're not brushing him off.
On Sat, Apr 03, 2021 at 06:48:53PM +0100, lejeczek via users wrote:
Nowhere I suggested that anything about OS/hardware is trivial nor I would expect anybody who has basic knowledge about computers, to think this is trivial.
Well, you said "is a joke". I do not think it is a joke.
Officially supported or not does not matter. Point I was making, I make is - do not succumb to that almost euphoric state which some expressed at the news given publicly by Lenovo about them beginning to support Linux, because they decided to sell couple of models in US with Linux.
This _really_ is planned to be global. It's just hard to do a global roll-out. As I understand it, the team learned a lot from the first attempt and that should get better in the future.
I do agree that it isn't helpful to have too high of expectations. A "euphoric state" definitely seems too much -- as does expecting support for models they haven't said are supported.
And perhaps, if a secondary point was also hidden in my message - research other, smaller HW vendors if they might offer Linux more serious approach, I know I will, that's all.
Yes, that's cool too.
On Sat, 3 Apr 2021 at 10:01, lejeczek via users users@lists.fedoraproject.org wrote:
if you too jumped on that bandwagon of (fake) Lenovo euphoria towards support, in generic terms, for Linux by the company - which is BAD across the board.
That's not what I've experienced: I've been working with Lenovo for about 2 years now, with ThinkStation, ThinkCenter and ThinkPad teams (including sub-teams of ME, BIOS, etc), and about a dozen ODMs and IHVs with my firmware work on the LVFS and fwupd. Although Lenovo had some catching up to do, they now ship about as much firmware on the LVFS (in terms of absolute downloads, and also in terms of models supported) as Dell. In the last 18 months I've seen a Lenovo Linux team grow from almost nothing to having almost daily contact with a Senior Linux Developer at Lenovo. They are increasing the number of models (and type of hardware) with firmware on the LVFS and I'll have some more announcements about all that when it's all public.
As I understand it, Lenovo only formally "supports Fedora" on models actually sold with Fedora preinstalled (which is fair enough in my opinion). At least unofficially I know there are a *huge* number of other models that are being tested with Fedora and RHEL, and with firmware updates available on the LVFS. I've been given access to their IHVs and ODMs supplying devices and silicon to them, and the support of Linux by Lenovo has contributed a huge amount to the success of the LVFS.
I think calling Lenovo a "joke" considering how much progress they've made in the last 18 months is a huge mischaracterization. I buy Lenovo and I've been Linux-exclusive for about the last 15 years.
Richard.
On 04/04/2021 09:04, Richard Hughes wrote:
On Sat, 3 Apr 2021 at 10:01, lejeczek via users users@lists.fedoraproject.org wrote:
if you too jumped on that bandwagon of (fake) Lenovo euphoria towards support, in generic terms, for Linux by the company - which is BAD across the board.
That's not what I've experienced: I've been working with Lenovo for about 2 years now, with ThinkStation, ThinkCenter and ThinkPad teams (including sub-teams of ME, BIOS, etc), and about a dozen ODMs and IHVs with my firmware work on the LVFS and fwupd. Although Lenovo had some catching up to do, they now ship about as much firmware on the LVFS (in terms of absolute downloads, and also in terms of models supported) as Dell. In the last 18 months I've seen a Lenovo Linux team grow from almost nothing to having almost daily contact with a Senior Linux Developer at Lenovo. They are increasing the number of models (and type of hardware) with firmware on the LVFS and I'll have some more announcements about all that when it's all public.
As I understand it, Lenovo only formally "supports Fedora" on models actually sold with Fedora preinstalled (which is fair enough in my opinion). At least unofficially I know there are a *huge* number of other models that are being tested with Fedora and RHEL, and with firmware updates available on the LVFS. I've been given access to their IHVs and ODMs supplying devices and silicon to them, and the support of Linux by Lenovo has contributed a huge amount to the success of the LVFS.
I think calling Lenovo a "joke" considering how much progress they've made in the last 18 months is a huge mischaracterization. I buy Lenovo and I've been Linux-exclusive for about the last 15 years.
Richard.
What LVFS is to Linux consumers and proponents and what you Richard and others do with/for it - well, I wish not to sound boring and repetitive but will say anyway - is great! However, I do not think your experience, for obvious reasons, should compare to experience of the rest of us regular folk.
The quote I used is a verbatim quote (I only do not want to include email addresses and names, those should remain private in my opinion). There, in Lenovo(IBM) replay is no talk about official "VS non-official", about "Fedora VS Ubuntu", it as short(really that short) and concrete as you can read it.
Do anybody think that if I was to ask my friend or do it myself and talk to Lenovo but replace "Ubuntu" with "Fedora" their repose would be entirely different or.... different at all? I might give a try I think.
What I think is happening recently with Leonovo, if anything is rather a diversion from Lenovo-HW(BIOS)-close-Linux-Integration and please, do not get me wrong, I say there most certainly is, at Lenovo, a small bunch of people who work hard with serious-Linux-approach goal in mind but that might be worth... well a penny, at most? When the goals at the company(top) level are nowhere near Linux, perhaps are in a parallel universe with Linux absent completely, then such a bunch of devotees plus you, plus me, plus us... will not be ever enough. Your own individual experience will not change it.
(I'll try to stress that again, as it seems we miss that secondary point of mine - IBM which is now Redhat, that short, concrete replay came from!)
na zdrowie (since it's Sun), L.
Richard: (and/or anyone else with strong feelings about Lenovo)
I have a question regarding your experience with Lenovo.
I have always had a problem with the "Superfish" incident that they had a few years ago. Of course that particular invasive spyware was Windows-only, but what happens if they decide to target Linux users with similar malicious software.
In other words, do you trust them to have reformed in this regard, and why?
Thanks, --murph
On Sun, Apr 4, 2021 at 4:05 AM Richard Hughes hughsient@gmail.com wrote:
I think calling Lenovo a "joke" considering how much progress they've made in the last 18 months is a huge mischaracterization. I buy Lenovo and I've been Linux-exclusive for about the last 15 years.
On Sun, Apr 04, 2021 at 11:55:11AM +0100, lejeczek via users wrote:
There, in Lenovo(IBM) replay is no talk about official "VS non-official", about "Fedora VS Ubuntu", it as short(really that short) and concrete as you can read it.
I think you have a misconception there. Lenovo is not (and never was) IBM. Lenovo previously made laptops and desktops for IBM under contract, and in 2005 bought out that business. (In 2014, they bought the Intel-based server business too.)
Additionally, while IBM owns Red Hat, it's operated as a separate business. So there really are no direct connections. (Basically, IBM doesn't come into it at all.) Additionally, Red Hat does not support Fedora-based systems; the support you get is community based.
Do anybody think that if I was to ask my friend or do it myself and talk to Lenovo but replace "Ubuntu" with "Fedora" their repose would be entirely different or.... different at all? I might give a try I think.
Well, again, it depends who you are talking to and what the system in question is. If it's a laptop that was bought with Fedora Linux on it and you got that response, like I said, let me know and I'll raise that as an alarm. I do think that they should at least have said that they only support certain models and configurations ... but, also, it's a big company and I wouldn't be shocked to learn that not every front-line tech in the world has the messaging right.
On Sun, Apr 04, 2021 at 09:13:34AM -0400, murph nj wrote:
Richard: (and/or anyone else with strong feelings about Lenovo)
I have a question regarding your experience with Lenovo.
I have always had a problem with the "Superfish" incident that they had a few years ago. Of course that particular invasive spyware was Windows-only, but what happens if they decide to target Linux users with similar malicious software.
In other words, do you trust them to have reformed in this regard, and why?
I trust the people we're working with, for three reasons:
1. They're entirely different people in a different group; Lenovo is a big company with a complex organization. The Superfish thing happened in the "Lenovo Notebook" line, which is an entirely different business from the Think* systems.
2. If you don't trust people, you might still follow the money, and in this case, the motivation is coming from people asking for Fedora Linux as a preinstall option. That's a very different financial motivation than what led to preinstalling terrible adware on a budget consumer Windows notebook.
3. The team has been very clear that they want no such thing, and that they want to provide a completely stock out-of-the-box Fedora Workstation system. This is, in fact, the only thing that is allowed by our trademark rules; if they wanted to put something else in there, they'd have to call it something else.
On 04/04/2021 16:31, Matthew Miller wrote:
On Sun, Apr 04, 2021 at 11:55:11AM +0100, lejeczek via users wrote:
There, in Lenovo(IBM) replay is no talk about official "VS non-official", about "Fedora VS Ubuntu", it as short(really that short) and concrete as you can read it.
I think you have a misconception there. Lenovo is not (and never was) IBM. Lenovo previously made laptops and desktops for IBM under contract, and in 2005 bought out that business. (In 2014, they bought the Intel-based server business too.)
Gee man, what is wrong with you? I really have to spell it out for you - tech support case reported to Lenovo with the subject being, yes a laptop, was acted upon by and replied from IBM (here in UK, perhaps the rest of the Europe), thus lease stop lecturing about how it was, history lessons not required.
Additionally, while IBM owns Red Hat, it's operated as a separate business. So there really are no direct connections. (Basically, IBM doesn't come into it at all.) Additionally, Red Hat does not support Fedora-based systems; the support you get is community based.
and the eagerness to be their public defense, gee.. are you on a payroll of any these entities? If yes then I get it, fair enough, but if not then what would you bother... (rhetorical)
Do anybody think that if I was to ask my friend or do it myself and talk to Lenovo but replace "Ubuntu" with "Fedora" their repose would be entirely different or.... different at all? I might give a try I think.
Well, again, it depends who you are talking to and what the system in question is. If it's a laptop that was bought with Fedora Linux on it and you got that response, like I said, let me know and I'll raise that as an alarm. I do think that they should at least have said that they only support certain models and configurations ... but, also, it's a big company and I wouldn't be shocked to learn that not every front-line tech in the world has the messaging right.
Thanks for the offer but you should not be bothered. Moreover, it never crossed my mind that me sharing my experience and expressing my opinion would be taken as a call for help. Again, I thank you but it's between Lenovo(others officially involved) and the rest of us regular customers.
On Sat., 3 Apr. 2021, 06:01 lejeczek via users, < users@lists.fedoraproject.org> wrote:
I'm experiencing sleep/resume issue with my Lenovo two laptops, same problem my friend sees, only he did file a support request to Lenovo.
Wasn't it discussed right on this list a few days ago, on a separate thread also started by you?
It seems to me the issue is still being worked on.
https://gitlab.freedesktop.org/drm/amd/-/issues/1230#note_824935
It doesn't seem to be specific to Lenovo or Fedora either, but a result of the "standards" pushed by Microsoft for Win10 which deprecate older standards... ("Modern Standby") https://docs.microsoft.com/en-us/windows-hardware/design/device-experiences/...
FC
I have a Lenovo Laptop which I just added a NVME M.2 500GB storage unit into. I have over the years worked on many different Laptops and I can tell you that this unit is very well designed and built. I use F33 on it and with the latest updates works fine with Suspend and I couldn't be more pleased😄 Robert
Get BlueMail for Android
On 4 Apr 2021, 06:14, at 06:14, murph nj murphnj+fedora@gmail.com wrote:
Richard: (and/or anyone else with strong feelings about Lenovo)
I have a question regarding your experience with Lenovo.
I have always had a problem with the "Superfish" incident that they had a few years ago. Of course that particular invasive spyware was Windows-only, but what happens if they decide to target Linux users with similar malicious software.
In other words, do you trust them to have reformed in this regard, and why?
Thanks, --murph
On Sun, Apr 4, 2021 at 4:05 AM Richard Hughes hughsient@gmail.com wrote:
I think calling Lenovo a "joke" considering how much progress they've made in the last 18 months is a huge mischaracterization. I buy
Lenovo
and I've been Linux-exclusive for about the last 15 years.
users mailing list -- users@lists.fedoraproject.org To unsubscribe send an email to users-leave@lists.fedoraproject.org Fedora Code of Conduct: https://docs.fedoraproject.org/en-US/project/code-of-conduct/ List Guidelines: https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Mailing_list_guidelines List Archives: https://lists.fedoraproject.org/archives/list/users@lists.fedoraproject.org Do not reply to spam on the list, report it: https://pagure.io/fedora-infrastructure
On 4/4/21 10:32 AM, lejeczek via users wrote:
Moreover, it never crossed my mind that me sharing my experience and expressing my opinion would be taken as a call for help.
This is, specifically, a support forum. It is a place to ask for help. Every message is sent to "Community support for Fedora users".
I don't think your thread is helpful. We don't know what model of system you have, which might have power management issues. We don't know which group told you they don't support Linux systems. Matthew offered to try to help improve support responses, and you've blown him off.
If you're not interested in solving the problem, then you're just ranting, and that's off-topic for this list.
On Sun, Apr 04, 2021 at 06:32:00PM +0100, lejeczek via users wrote:
and the eagerness to be their public defense, gee.. are you on a payroll of any these entities? If yes then I get it, fair enough, but if not then what would you bother... (rhetorical)
I am on the payroll of Red Hat. They pay me to work on Fedora, and as part of that, I worked with (and continue to work with!) Lenovo in their effort to provide supported systems running Fedora Linux.
But I've been on this mailing list trying to help Fedora users with various issues for some time before that. That's the whole idea -- working together to try to make things better, and that's why I bother.
On Sun, 4 Apr 2021 23:44:59 +0200 Ranjan Maitra maitra@email.com wrote:
Matthew, And to you and everybody else on this list, I (and I am sure, countless others) are very grateful! You answer even off-topic questions if you can. Thanks again!
Ranjan
Plus One!
Sent: Sunday, April 04, 2021 at 3:55 PM From: "Matthew Miller" mattdm@fedoraproject.org To: "lejeczek via users" users@lists.fedoraproject.org Subject: Re: Lenovo is a JOKE (IBM too) On Sun, Apr 04, 2021 at 06:32:00PM +0100, lejeczek via users wrote:
and the eagerness to be their public defense, gee.. are you on a payroll of any these entities? If yes then I get it, fair enough, but if not then what would you bother... (rhetorical)
I am on the payroll of Red Hat. They pay me to work on Fedora, and as part of that, I worked with (and continue to work with!) Lenovo in their effort to provide supported systems running Fedora Linux.
But I've been on this mailing list trying to help Fedora users with various issues for some time before that. That's the whole idea -- working together to try to make things better, and that's why I bother.
On 04/04/2021 20:41, Gordon Messmer wrote:
On 4/4/21 10:32 AM, lejeczek via users wrote:
Moreover, it never crossed my mind that me sharing my experience and expressing my opinion would be taken as a call for help.
This is, specifically, a support forum. It is a place to ask for help. Every message is sent to "Community support for Fedora users".
I don't think your thread is helpful. We don't know what model of system you have, which might have power management issues. We don't know which group told you they don't support Linux systems. Matthew offered to try to help improve support responses, and you've blown him off.
If you're not interested in solving the problem, then you're just ranting, and that's off-topic for this list.
From the first few lines of my first message it was clear I made it a sharing-experience-advice and not a search for help, which help when Matthew offered I reasoned why him nor anybody(including employees) here I'd not dare to bother about. I do not go for phrases such as 'to blow off'. I'm not unhappy that way and I think it's evident who is ranting here.
But never mind that all, expressing my option on that matter I'm finished with. We all have enough actual problems to resolve and precious energy should go there rather than towards creation of the problems for which there are no resolutions.
thanks, L
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To me. Any company shipping Linux on their hardware is far from being a joke.
EGO II
On Sun, Apr 4, 2021, 4:05 AM Richard Hughes hughsient@gmail.com wrote:
On Sat, 3 Apr 2021 at 10:01, lejeczek via users users@lists.fedoraproject.org wrote:
if you too jumped on that bandwagon of (fake) Lenovo euphoria towards
support, in
generic terms, for Linux by the company - which is BAD across the board.
That's not what I've experienced: I've been working with Lenovo for about 2 years now, with ThinkStation, ThinkCenter and ThinkPad teams (including sub-teams of ME, BIOS, etc), and about a dozen ODMs and IHVs with my firmware work on the LVFS and fwupd. Although Lenovo had some catching up to do, they now ship about as much firmware on the LVFS (in terms of absolute downloads, and also in terms of models supported) as Dell. In the last 18 months I've seen a Lenovo Linux team grow from almost nothing to having almost daily contact with a Senior Linux Developer at Lenovo. They are increasing the number of models (and type of hardware) with firmware on the LVFS and I'll have some more announcements about all that when it's all public.
As I understand it, Lenovo only formally "supports Fedora" on models actually sold with Fedora preinstalled (which is fair enough in my opinion). At least unofficially I know there are a *huge* number of other models that are being tested with Fedora and RHEL, and with firmware updates available on the LVFS. I've been given access to their IHVs and ODMs supplying devices and silicon to them, and the support of Linux by Lenovo has contributed a huge amount to the success of the LVFS.
I think calling Lenovo a "joke" considering how much progress they've made in the last 18 months is a huge mischaracterization. I buy Lenovo and I've been Linux-exclusive for about the last 15 years.
Richard. _______________________________________________ users mailing list -- users@lists.fedoraproject.org To unsubscribe send an email to users-leave@lists.fedoraproject.org Fedora Code of Conduct: https://docs.fedoraproject.org/en-US/project/code-of-conduct/ List Guidelines: https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Mailing_list_guidelines List Archives: https://lists.fedoraproject.org/archives/list/users@lists.fedoraproject.org Do not reply to spam on the list, report it: https://pagure.io/fedora-infrastructure
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