Hi All,
I just visited a customer I had designed a Fedora 30 server. That makes the computer eleven years old!
I do not dare upgrade or even install updates it as the point-of-sale software he is running a YUGE nasty K-L-U-G-E.
The server is works well still.
He does not want to go with a new software vendor that has good support. He will only do it when thing come down around his ears.
I told the customer he was pushing it.
Your thoughts?
-T
On Sat, 2025-02-22 at 19:39 -0800, ToddAndMargo via users wrote:
I just visited a customer I had designed a Fedora 30 server. That makes the computer eleven years old!
I do not dare upgrade or even install updates it as the point-of-sale software he is running a YUGE nasty K-L-U-G-E.
The server is works well still.
He does not want to go with a new software vendor that has good support. He will only do it when thing come down around his ears.
I told the customer he was pushing it.
Your thoughts?
Set up a demo computer, with new software. Firstly see if it works for you, then demonstrate for him. You're going to need something that's virtually a straight swap-over for him to accept it, with the option to fall back to what he's been using so far. Whether that be a whole PC, or yank the old drive out and fit a new one in.
Once upon a time, ToddAndMargo ToddAndMargo@zoho.com said:
I just visited a customer I had designed a Fedora 30 server. That makes the computer eleven years old!
No, it's 11 Fedora releases old, which are roughly twice a year. Fedora 30 was released 2019-04-30. Updates for it ended on 2020-05-26, so it's not connected to a network or exposed to any untrustworthy people.
At $LASTJOB, I found that one customer's primary recursive DNS server had been up without even a reboot from IIRC 2005... this was 2018 or 2019. Sure, it's neat that it stayed up for 13-14 years without an issue, but it WAS connected to the Internet, and was sorely outdated.
I had a RH6 samba server bridging the oracle/linux env to AD. Worked until last year when some M$ update broke the Kerberos trust and the RH box couldn't get AD updates.
I agree build something modern in parallel, satisfy yourself it works and then sell the client
On Sat, Feb 22, 2025 at 11:24 PM Chris Adams linux@cmadams.net wrote:
Once upon a time, ToddAndMargo ToddAndMargo@zoho.com said:
I just visited a customer I had designed a Fedora 30 server. That makes the computer eleven years old!
No, it's 11 Fedora releases old, which are roughly twice a year. Fedora 30 was released 2019-04-30. Updates for it ended on 2020-05-26, so it's not connected to a network or exposed to any untrustworthy people.
At $LASTJOB, I found that one customer's primary recursive DNS server had been up without even a reboot from IIRC 2005... this was 2018 or 2019. Sure, it's neat that it stayed up for 13-14 years without an issue, but it WAS connected to the Internet, and was sorely outdated.
-- Chris Adams linux@cmadams.net -- _______________________________________________ users mailing list -- users@lists.fedoraproject.org To unsubscribe send an email to users-leave@lists.fedoraproject.org Fedora Code of Conduct: https://docs.fedoraproject.org/en-US/project/code-of-conduct/ List Guidelines: https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Mailing_list_guidelines List Archives: https://lists.fedoraproject.org/archives/list/users@lists.fedoraproject.org Do not reply to spam, report it: https://pagure.io/fedora-infrastructure/new_issue
Am 23.02.2025 um 04:39 schrieb ToddAndMargo via users users@lists.fedoraproject.org:
Hi All,
I just visited a customer I had designed a Fedora 30 server. That makes the computer eleven years old!
We release twice a year, so it is about 5 or 6 years old. I see no reason why you should take the hassle to buy him a new computer. Maybe it is a good idea to install a second disk in a RAID 1 configuration.
I do not dare upgrade or even install updates it as the point-of-sale software he is running a YUGE nasty K-L-U-G-E.
The server is works well still.
He does not want to go with a new software vendor that has good support. He will only do it when thing come down around his ears.
I can very well understand that and probably would do the same. If the server has no connection to the public internet, you may even let it as it is, as long as everything works as expected. Question is, whether the software works with the newer system software. Depends of the language that software is written and the requirements (updating may be „difficult“ with e.g. php, python or Ruby)
— Peter Boy https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/User:Pboy PBoy@fedoraproject.org
Timezone: CET (UTC+1) / CEST (UTC+2)
Fedora Server Edition Working Group member Fedora Docs team contributor and board member Java developer and enthusiast
On Sun Feb23'25 09:24:32AM, Peter Boy Uni wrote:
From: Peter Boy Uni pboy@uni-bremen.de Date: Sun, 23 Feb 2025 09:24:32 +0100 To: Community support for Fedora users users@lists.fedoraproject.org Reply-To: Community support for Fedora users users@lists.fedoraproject.org Subject: Re: 11 year old server!
Am 23.02.2025 um 04:39 schrieb ToddAndMargo via users users@lists.fedoraproject.org:
Hi All,
I just visited a customer I had designed a Fedora 30 server. That makes the computer eleven years old!
We release twice a year, so it is about 5 or 6 years old. I see no reason why you should take the hassle to buy him a new computer. Maybe it is a good idea to install a second disk in a RAID 1 configuration.
I do not dare upgrade or even install updates it as the point-of-sale software he is running a YUGE nasty K-L-U-G-E.
The server is works well still.
He does not want to go with a new software vendor that has good support. He will only do it when thing come down around his ears.
I can very well understand that and probably would do the same. If the server has no connection to the public internet, you may even let it as it is, as long as everything works as expected. Question is, whether the software works with the newer system software. Depends of the language that software is written and the requirements (updating may be „difficult“ with e.g. php, python or Ruby)
I have a server from 2009 still going strong. It has always run Fedora, of course, and I use openbox (I have never been keen on a DE for even my newer machines). It is updated every night, and upgraded every six months. (Except that I just realized that I never upgraded to F41, so it is now being upgraded.) I still use a laptop from 2013 (for teaching purposes) and that is running F41. All the software that I use (except for the VPN client on my laptop) is OSS.
I am surprised that your client's software has not complained of something assuming that it is still being maintained and interfaces with things beyond the computer. If the computer does not interact much with the outside then there is probably not much of a security issue? I prefer keeping my machines updated.
Ranjan
On 2/22/2025 10:39 PM, ToddAndMargo via users wrote:
I just visited a customer I had designed a Fedora 30 server. That makes the computer eleven years old! I do not dare upgrade or even install updates it as the point-of-sale software he is running a YUGE nasty K-L- U-G-E.
T,
What's the extent of what the point-of-sale tracks? Does it handle payment processing?
I know in for computer-based POS systems around here they are very strict on how out-of-date we're allowed to be on our OS's. It's fairly forgiving, but still not great -- usually 2-3 annual updates (Windows 21H2, 22H2, etc. etc.).
-slade
On 2/23/25 1:42 PM, Slade Watkins wrote:
What's the extent of what the point-of-sale tracks? Does it handle payment processing?
I mainly does inventory tracking for aerospace. Sales to, but it does not take credit cards. That is a different piece of software.
The software in a badly maintained, if at all. It has a module for credit cards, but I put my foot down and and the module was never installed. The software is not PCI (payment card industry) compliant in any universe and is illegal to use with credit cards in my state. The owner of the software owner and he got really pissed at me, but I held my ground.
On 2/23/25 5:36 AM, Ranjan Maitra via users wrote:
I am surprised that your client's software has not complained of something assuming that it is still being maintained and interfaces with things beyond the computer.
The software on so poorly maintained that I consider is to be not maintained.
Problem is that the software does something that is unique and the customer needs the feature, which is tracking of all the parts for aerospace. I forget what that is called, but it is like "chain of custody".
tangentially following the thread.
But if i'm understanding. You have a somewhat "critical" piece of software, dealing with "Aerospace" components, that I gather are used for Aerospace related projects. Given that you mentioned "chain of custody" (supply channel) this implies some level of importance beyond the old used parts that are useless.... or the hobbyist markets.
If this is commercial, and the client/vendor in any way/shape/form interfaces with major operations in the space/aerospace industries, or the defence industry, and if your client is US based, you might want to have the guy sign waivers saying you are not responsible for anything related to this, and you might actually want to tell him/advise him to get someone else to run the system.
The industries I mentioned above, frown upon systems that aren't locked down/tight!
Your mileage might vary.
Good luck
On Sun, Feb 23, 2025 at 7:23 PM ToddAndMargo via users < users@lists.fedoraproject.org> wrote:
On 2/23/25 5:36 AM, Ranjan Maitra via users wrote:
I am surprised that your client's software has not complained of
something assuming that it is still being maintained and interfaces with things beyond the computer.
The software on so poorly maintained that I consider is to be not maintained.
Problem is that the software does something that is unique and the customer needs the feature, which is tracking of all the parts for aerospace. I forget what that is called, but it is like "chain of custody". -- _______________________________________________ users mailing list -- users@lists.fedoraproject.org To unsubscribe send an email to users-leave@lists.fedoraproject.org Fedora Code of Conduct: https://docs.fedoraproject.org/en-US/project/code-of-conduct/ List Guidelines: https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Mailing_list_guidelines List Archives: https://lists.fedoraproject.org/archives/list/users@lists.fedoraproject.org Do not reply to spam, report it: https://pagure.io/fedora-infrastructure/new_issue
On Sun, 23 Feb 2025 16:19:54 -0800 "ToddAndMargo via users" users@lists.fedoraproject.org wrote:
On 2/22/25 8:14 PM, Tim wrote:
Set up a demo computer, with new software
There is no new software.
If you mean the old software on a new OS, no one is willing to pay for that. And the vendor would not be willing to test his stuff on the new OS. --
Setup a new computer and run it in a VM.
On 2/24/25 12:46 AM, Bob Marčan via users wrote:
On Sun, 23 Feb 2025 16:19:54 -0800 "ToddAndMargo via users" users@lists.fedoraproject.org wrote:
On 2/22/25 8:14 PM, Tim wrote:
Set up a demo computer, with new software
There is no new software.
If you mean the old software on a new OS, no one is willing to pay for that. And the vendor would not be willing to test his stuff on the new OS. --
Setup a new computer and run it in a VM.
He won't pay for a new computer, let alone my time for setting it up.
On 02/24/2025 02:18 AM, ToddAndMargo via users wrote:
He won't pay for a new computer, let alone my time for setting it up.
If so, he wants a system that works on FM: Fscking Magic.
Seriously, if he's that cheap, does he pay you enough to keep his ancient system working or are you just keeping him as a client out of habit. Remember, if you drop him, it's highly unlikely that he'll find anybody else willing to put up with his conditions so you've got that as leverage to get him to be sensible.
Oh, aerospace! Of course!
Anything more recent than 10 years is new. To by old it has to be 15+.
I participate in the ICAO Trust Framework Panel and work with other groups in ICAO.
If it APPEARS to work, don't touch it.
They are moving very fast on authentication for GPS, as there is considerable political pressure to DO SOMETHING. The design is not too bad, but unless I get some changes made, it will die with the first Quantum Computer. It is likely to be the first target...
Aviation is SOOO much fun!
On 2/23/25 18:55, ToddAndMargo via users wrote:
On 2/23/25 1:42 PM, Slade Watkins wrote:
What's the extent of what the point-of-sale tracks? Does it handle payment processing?
I mainly does inventory tracking for aerospace. Sales to, but it does not take credit cards. That is a different piece of software.
The software in a badly maintained, if at all. It has a module for credit cards, but I put my foot down and and the module was never installed. The software is not PCI (payment card industry) compliant in any universe and is illegal to use with credit cards in my state. The owner of the software owner and he got really pissed at me, but I held my ground.
On 2/24/25 10:36 AM, Joe Zeff wrote:
On 02/24/2025 02:18 AM, ToddAndMargo via users wrote:
He won't pay for a new computer, let alone my time for setting it up.
If so, he wants a system that works on FM: Fscking Magic.
Seriously, if he's that cheap, does he pay you enough to keep his ancient system working or are you just keeping him as a client out of habit. Remember, if you drop him, it's highly unlikely that he'll find anybody else willing to put up with his conditions so you've got that as leverage to get him to be sensible.
He pays me to keep it running. But so far nothing major has gone wrong.
No one around these parts knows poop about Linux other than me.
On 2/24/2025 1:36 PM, Joe Zeff wrote:
On 02/24/2025 02:18 AM, ToddAndMargo via users wrote:
He won't pay for a new computer, let alone my time for setting it up.
If so, he wants a system that works on FM: Fscking Magic.
Yeah, I agree with Joe Zeff here. The whole thing reads as weird to me from what Todd has said.
Look, computers are computers. There is a limit to their reliability as they age. I've had numerous clients who computers have straight up died even though they were acting fine prior, and all I've said to them is "I told you to replace it sooner."
Seriously, if he's that cheap, does he pay you enough to keep his ancient system working or are you just keeping him as a client out of habit. Remember, if you drop him, it's highly unlikely that he'll find anybody else willing to put up with his conditions so you've got that as leverage to get him to be sensible.
I don't know, it's all subjective and up to your interpretation but 11 years is definitely pushing it.
Personally, I'm worried about that being connected to the internet at this point in time; and if I were Todd in this situation, I'd personally put my foot down now. Just my two cents.
-slade
On Mon, Feb 24, 2025 at 4:24 PM ToddAndMargo via users users@lists.fedoraproject.org wrote:
On 2/24/25 12:28 PM, Robert Moskowitz wrote:
Aviation is SOOO much fun!
Every screw has to have paper work tracing it from, its origin. It a plastic bag them came in breaks, the whole bag has to be tosses.
Due to Partnair Flight 394, https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Partnair_Flight_394.
The FAA now runs a counterfeit parts program: Suspected Unapproved Parts (SUP) Program, https://www.faa.gov/aircraft/safety/programs/sups.
Jeff
On 2/24/25 1:28 PM, Slade Watkins wrote:
Personally, I'm worried about that being connected to the internet at this point in time;
The server is also the iptables firewall. No one uses the console, except me, so no surfing.
and if I were Todd in this situation, I'd personally > put my foot
down now.
I have to be a bit politic. I have found a replacement software for him, and he is definitely interest, but he has to have a bit of pain before he does anything. He keeps saying if the systems goes down, he'll just sell the business and retire.
So I will keep replacing the cooling fans every five years of so.
On 2/24/2025 5:39 PM, ToddAndMargo via users wrote:
On 2/24/25 1:28 PM, Slade Watkins wrote:
Personally, I'm worried about that being connected to the internet at this point in time;
The server is also the iptables firewall. No one uses the console, except me, so no surfing.
Okay, that makes me feel *way* better. You can understand why I'd be worried about that, though, haha.
I have to be a bit politic. I have found a replacement software for him, and he is definitely interest, but he has to have a bit of pain before he does anything. He keeps saying if the systems goes down, he'll just sell the business and retire.
Sounds like an older fellow; in which case, fair enough. The older generations among us are very set in their ways...
-slade
Yep.
2 decades ago? I was standing on the 777 assembly "line" and watched that happen.
In a lot of cases, the workers have things like screws in a case, as they put in LOTS of screws in a short time. But some of those screws are REALLY important and have complete handling procedures. If things break, NTSB will want a complete build log.
On 2/24/25 16:24, ToddAndMargo via users wrote:
On 2/24/25 12:28 PM, Robert Moskowitz wrote:
Aviation is SOOO much fun!
Every screw has to have paper work tracing it from, its origin. It a plastic bag them came in breaks, the whole bag has to be tosses.
On 2/24/25 16:28, Slade Watkins wrote:
On 2/24/2025 1:36 PM, Joe Zeff wrote:
On 02/24/2025 02:18 AM, ToddAndMargo via users wrote:
He won't pay for a new computer, let alone my time for setting it up.
If so, he wants a system that works on FM: Fscking Magic.
Yeah, I agree with Joe Zeff here. The whole thing reads as weird to me from what Todd has said.
Look, computers are computers. There is a limit to their reliability as they age. I've had numerous clients who computers have straight up died even though they were acting fine prior, and all I've said to them is "I told you to replace it sooner."
I just had fans die on TWO Lenovo x120e within 2 weeks! Replacing the fans is a bit of work, I have done it; so off to the recycling these go! Ebay here I come...
Seriously, if he's that cheap, does he pay you enough to keep his ancient system working or are you just keeping him as a client out of habit. Remember, if you drop him, it's highly unlikely that he'll find anybody else willing to put up with his conditions so you've got that as leverage to get him to be sensible.
I don't know, it's all subjective and up to your interpretation but 11 years is definitely pushing it.
Personally, I'm worried about that being connected to the internet at this point in time; and if I were Todd in this situation, I'd personally put my foot down now. Just my two cents.
-slade
On 2/24/25 16:55, Jeffrey Walton wrote:
On Mon, Feb 24, 2025 at 4:24 PM ToddAndMargo via users users@lists.fedoraproject.org wrote:
On 2/24/25 12:28 PM, Robert Moskowitz wrote:
Aviation is SOOO much fun!
Every screw has to have paper work tracing it from, its origin. It a plastic bag them came in breaks, the whole bag has to be tosses.
Due to Partnair Flight 394, https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Partnair_Flight_394.
The FAA now runs a counterfeit parts program: Suspected Unapproved Parts (SUP) Program, https://www.faa.gov/aircraft/safety/programs/sups.
I believe it is called "Engineering through failures". Like the Tacoma Narrows bridge...
-
Bob Marčan -
bruce -
Chris Adams -
Jeffrey Walton -
Joe Zeff -
Peter Boy Uni -
Ranjan Maitra -
Robert Moskowitz -
Slade Watkins -
Terry Polzin -
Tim -
ToddAndMargo